How There Was Something About Mary | S1E19 "Mary the Paralegal" with Pam Fryman

Summary

How We Made Your Mother: Episode S1E19 "Mary the Paralegal" with Pam Fryman

Introduction

In the nineteenth episode of "How We Made Your Mother," hosts Josh Radnor and Craig Thomas delve deep into the creation and enduring legacy of the "How I Met Your Mother" (HIMYM) episode titled "Mary the Paralegal." This episode is particularly special as it features Pam Fryman, the beloved director of HIMYM, sharing invaluable insights about the show's production, character development, and the nuances that made the series resonate with millions worldwide.

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Heartfelt Fan Connection

The episode opens with an emotionally charged moment where Josh shares a touching letter from a fan in Ecuador. This letter underscores the profound impact HIMYM has had on its audience, highlighting themes of love, friendship, and personal growth. Josh remarks:

"[02:00] ... it's amazing to see how the show not only entertained but also healed and inspired its viewers."

This sets the tone for an episode that not only examines the technical aspects of the show but also celebrates its emotional depth and cultural significance.

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Welcoming Pam Fryman

Transitioning from the fan letter, Josh and Craig introduce their special guest, Pam Fryman, the director who helmed the vast majority of HIMYM episodes. Their enthusiasm is palpable as they express their gratitude for Pam's pivotal role in shaping the show's success.

"[03:35] Josh Radnor: Well, we often have very special episodes... but today is a very, very, very special episode..."

Pam reciprocates the warmth, reflecting on her initial interaction with the hosts and the innate connection she felt with the show's concept and characters.

"[04:04] Pam Fryman: I certainly remember reading the pilot, and it was unlike any other pilot... so funny. But the heart got me."

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Behind the Scenes: Crafting "Mary the Paralegal"

The discussion seamlessly transitions into the specifics of the "Mary the Paralegal" episode. Pam shares anecdotes about the challenges and creative decisions involved in directing this particular episode, emphasizing the balance between humor and emotional storytelling.

"[07:34] Pam Fryman: ...we have to let moments breathe. Josh and I keep talking about this all the time..."

Craig adds, highlighting how the absence of a live audience allowed for a more grounded and cinematic approach, enabling deeper character explorations without the immediate feedback of laughter.

"[15:19] Craig Thomas: ...making the best version of what was created. And when we went to do it, we realized that we couldn't rely on what we had done forever..."

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Creating a Safe and Collaborative Environment

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to understanding the collaborative dynamics on the HIMYM set. Pam emphasizes the importance of making the cast feel safe and valued, fostering an environment where creativity could flourish.

"[31:42] Pam Fryman: ...that's why I stay for nine years. ... you have to treat people the way you want to be treated."

Craig and Josh echo this sentiment, acknowledging how Pam's nurturing leadership was instrumental in maintaining the show's consistent quality and the cast's commitment over its nine-season run.

"[40:22] Craig Thomas: ...you were just so welcoming and open to trying stuff. ... a safe creative space."

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Acknowledging Growth and Learning

The hosts address a sensitive moment from the show where a disparaging term was used, recognizing it as a misstep. They express genuine remorse and demonstrate a commitment to learning and growth.

"[58:19] Pam Fryman: ...it's a show of love. It is a show of hope."

Josh reflects on the evolution of societal norms and the importance of owning mistakes to foster a more respectful and inclusive environment.

"[60:12] Josh Radnor: ...when you know better, you do better. Like you. ... embracing community over competition."

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Listener's Letter: A Tribute to Alejandro

Towards the episode's end, Josh shares a poignant letter from Millie Mearschon, honoring her late friend Alejandro, who introduced her to HIMYM. This touching tribute encapsulates the show's ability to forge deep, meaningful connections with its audience.

"[75:42] Josh Radnor: ...thank you for giving life to a character who wasn't perfect, but who grew, who let go, who learned, who hoped."

This segment reinforces the show's central themes of personal growth, resilience, and the enduring power of friendships.

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Final Reflections and Gratitude

As the episode concludes, Josh and Craig reflect on the myriad ways HIMYM has impacted both its creators and its fans. They express profound gratitude towards Pam Fryman for her unwavering dedication and the role she played in making HIMYM a cherished part of pop culture.

"[71:30] Josh Radnor: ...It's been such a pleasure, guys."

Their heartfelt appreciation underscores the collaborative spirit that fueled HIMYM's success and its lasting legacy.

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Conclusion

Episode "Mary the Paralegal" of "How We Made Your Mother" serves as a heartfelt homage to Pam Fryman and the intricate artistry behind HIMYM. Through candid conversations, shared memories, and acknowledgment of both triumphs and oversights, Josh Radnor and Craig Thomas provide listeners with a comprehensive look at what made HIMYM not just a sitcom, but a cultural phenomenon cherished by fans around the globe.

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Notable Quotes:

• Josh Radnor [02:00]: "...it's amazing to see how the show not only entertained but also healed and inspired its viewers."

• Pam Fryman [04:04]: "I certainly remember reading the pilot, and it was unlike any other pilot... so funny. But the heart got me."

• Pam Fryman [31:42]: "...that's why I stay for nine years. ... you have to treat people the way you want to be treated."

• Craig Thomas [15:19]: "...making the best version of what was created. And when we went to do it, we realized that we couldn't rely on what we had done forever..."

• Josh Radnor [60:12]: "...when you know better, you do better. Like you. ... embracing community over competition."

• Josh Radnor [75:42]: "...thank you for giving life to a character who wasn't perfect, but who grew, who let go, who learned, who hoped."

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Timestamp Highlights:

• [02:00]: Introduction of the fan letter and its emotional significance.
• [04:04]: Pam Fryman's initial connection with the show's concept.
• [07:34]: Balancing humor with emotional storytelling in directing.
• [15:19]: Transitioning from multi-cam to single-cam for authenticity.
• [31:42]: Importance of a nurturing and respectful set environment.
• [58:19]: Addressing past missteps and committing to growth.
• [75:42]: Millie Mearschon's tribute to Alejandro and its impact.
• [71:30]: Final reflections and gratitude towards Pam Fryman.

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of "How We Made Your Mother" Episode S1E19, highlighting the collaborative spirit, behind-the-scenes challenges, and the heartfelt connections that made "How I Met Your Mother" a beloved sitcom for many.

Transcript

[Josh Radner]

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[Craig Thomas]

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[Josh Radner]

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[Pam Freiman]

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[Josh Radner]

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[Craig Thomas]

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[Josh Radner]

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[Unnamed Speaker]

HEM really taught me a lot about how to love, how to be a man. Especially how to be a man. You know, growing up with a very religious, toxic, abusive father was very difficult for me and so I really hid my emotions. I was taught it wasn't okay to cry, it wasn't okay to be vulnerable. But Ted taught me that. And also being disabled, having cerebral palsy and autism, Hemium taught me how to properly interact with people and how to read social cues and all that stuff. So it made me become a better communicator, made me become a better friend. It made me become a better lover. Not just in the romantic sense, but in a proper way platonic sense as well. So thank you Josh. Thank you Carter. Thank you Craig. Thank you to the whole team. I will continue watching the show forever because it's, wait for it. Legendary.

[Josh Radner]

I'm alone. What a pity I won't be soon in New York City when I see you. Please permit me to tell you everything. Everything in New York City. Wow. Well Alec, our producer warned us that was a crusher of a letter and it certainly was. What an extraordinary thing to let us know. Thank you so much for that. I am Josh Ratner. Hello. Welcome to another episode of how we Made your Mother where we discuss the television program How I Met yout Mother which ran from 2005 to 2014. I played Ted Mosby on that show for all 208 episodes. The show was co created by Carter Bayes and my co host, the beloved Craig Thomas. Hi Craig.

[Craig Thomas]

Hey Joshi. Boy, that one got me. That letter really, really, really got me. I am so Trying to recover to get it together. But I want.

[Josh Radner]

I want to be friends with him.

[Craig Thomas]

That one really got me. I want to be friends with him, too. He is our friend. We are friends. And thank you so much for sharing that experience. My God, I thought it would be our guest that would make me cry. Just. But then Alec has to sucker punch us on the way in with this beautiful letter, and now I'm, like, crying. I thought simply having today's guest would burst into tears of joy.

[Josh Radner]

Well, we often have very special episodes of How We Made youe Mother, but today is a very, very, very, very, very extra, extra, extra, extra, extra, special episode of How We Made youe Mother, because we have the mother of all mothers, the director of the show, our beloved and forever friend, Pam Freyman is here. Hi, Pa.

[Pam Freiman]

Gosh, thank you so much. Hi, friends. That letter was perfection.

[Craig Thomas]

Can you believe it? It's so beautiful. The best part of this is hearing from the fans. I feel like the show is a way to just connect with people like what we just heard. And what an honor, right, to hear.

[Pam Freiman]

That the show later. Yeah, yeah.

[Josh Radner]

And it really does feel like we made a thing and we put. You know, it's like a. You make anything. It's like you put a bottle out in the ocean and you just hope someone gets the inside it. And it really just feels like it belongs to the fans now. Including, you know, there. There are all these theories, Pam, that we're hearing that we've asked Carter directly. Did you mean to do this. Did you mean to do this color scheme thing? There's a whole conspiracy theory about the colors and what they mean, and. And it's kind of like they didn't mean to, but they did on some subconscious level. You know, we're. We're talking about dream logic here, right, Craig?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah. There's something that comes out and, like, you hear a crazy thing, and then you're like, actually, there's something. There is something kind of to that. It's really. It's really cool that the show is like, is studied at that level. And by the way, just to back it all the way up here, well, today's date, we'll talk a little bit about the episode in question that we're up to, which is Mary, the paralegal, which is a really funny episode. But we'll also just talk about Pam. Like, oh, my God. How we met Pam. Like, Pam, one of the earliest believers in this thing. Carter and I were these two little boys, these two guys, they were in fifth grade. Short pants when we met you. Short little pants. Little, like, beanies with, like, propellers on them. And we're like, would you read my script, my lady? You're pretty and seem like an adult.

[Pam Freiman]

Sitting in a Starbucks. Just. Yes, the two of us.

[Craig Thomas]

That is how we met Pam Freyman. And we heard.

[Pam Freiman]

And I was told, by the way, I was told to go meet these two guys at Starbucks. And I walked in and there were all these tables, and there were two guys at each table. And I was like.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, your whole.

[Josh Radner]

Life could have changed if you went to the wrong table.

[Craig Thomas]

I know. And by the way, they all had. They all had pilot scripts to show you in Los Angeles that were written in that Starbucks.

[Josh Radner]

Pam, tell us. Tell us what your. Your experience was. Do you remember reading the pilot?

[Pam Freiman]

I. I certainly remember reading the pilot, and it was unlike any other pilot, and it was so funny. But the heart got me. The heart got me. And it was just a show I wanted to watch more than anything. So when the opportunity. I was just lucky that they found me and that I got a chance to meet them. And once you sit down with Carter and Craig, you're in. You're in.

[Craig Thomas]

Pam. One of the things we hear over and over again about the show, we're trying to uncover what is the enduring part of this show. And I think time and again, and we heard it in the opening, it's the heart part. And you, as the director, guarded that so religiously, I think that aspect and said, don't sell it all out to the jokes. Don't make it too snarky. You let moments breathe. Josh and I keep talking about this all the time, about his performance on the show. And when Ashley Williams was on, we talked about their drum rol, like an episode like that. And there's certain episodes of the show where I go, I'm proud of how few jokes there are in this episode. Meaning we let those emotional moments breathe. You seemed to understand that that was the key to this show succeeding. Maybe before Carter and I did.

[Pam Freiman]

I don't know. I don't know how much credit I can take. I just know what I loved and what resonated with me and with Josh Radner, who put his hand on his heart and we from once he did that, when he made that move once, that was like our sign to each other for the next 200 episodes.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. You know, it's funny, Pam, when you say it was a show you wanted to watch. I have this experience sometimes, whether something gets sent to me as an actor or director, if I really love it. And there is that feeling like, I want to watch this, but I want to watch the best version of this. And I love it in such a way that I might be the person that is the right person to bring this to life, because I feel the heartbeat of it. And it's almost like you step in because you want to protect it or you want the best version of it to come to life. Was there something like. Because at that point, you know, we can talk a little about your career, but you had your pick of pilots, right? Like, you. You. You were sent a ton of pilots. You. You could pick what you wanted to do, and you landed on this one. And part of it, I sense, is that you felt that. That pulse in it.

[Pam Freiman]

Well, I think that's all true. And one of the great things about this is that Carter and Craig were very young, hadn't done it a lot, and I knew that I could add some experience. I could help them sort of shepherd. I could be the adult in the room a little bit. And you guys, there were no rules. You were just doing what you instinctively knew would be funny and would be beautiful. And we had craft service. You guys were more excited about that than I think anything. It was all just. Everything was just unbelievable.

[Craig Thomas]

We got free food. I didn't know that was going to be part of it.

[Josh Radner]

And I wrote you this little ditty to sing to you in New York City. We'll be right back.

[Craig Thomas]

Now, Josh, I don't get stopped on the street often for any reason, really. Although I did recently get recognized for the podcast. Somebody that watches the podcast on YouTube recognized me in a store, but that doesn't relate to the story.

[Josh Radner]

How'd that feel?

[Craig Thomas]

But it was thrilling. It was thrilling. And then I was like, please respect my privacy. I was real. I was a real jerk about it.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, yeah. You went through every round of being a celebrity, like, every stage of being a celebrity in like 30 seconds in this one interaction.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah. No, but I really did get stuff. This is a true story. This is a vessi true story. A vessi shoe based, true story. I was walking my daughter to school and some. Some guy who looks kind of like my stunt double, like another sort of exhausted dad with a young. With a young daughter. And he's like, I like those shoes. And he points to my vessi shoes and he's like, those are cool. Because it looks like you could, like, walk your daughter's school, walk your dog, which is what I was doing. He's like, but you could, like, Put on like a dress those up a little bit, put on a blazer. You could wear them out to something. I was like, and I basically did an ad for Vessi to this one guy on the street.

[Josh Radner]

Was this the same guy who recognized you from the podcast?

[Craig Thomas]

It was not. It was not.

[Josh Radner]

Oh, oh. So you got your face got recognized and then your shoes got complimented.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, it was. I wish I could say it was all the same day because that would have been a great day. But no, this was. This was entirely shoe based. This guy had no idea who I was. And I basically performed this, what we're doing right now for him, one on one.

[Josh Radner]

Very exciting. You know, it's been raining, raining, raining in New York City. And I'm getting a lot of mileage out of my Vessi raincoat.

[Craig Thomas]

That is a very stylish and breathable light, great raincoat. And these shoes are also breathable light. Very easy to put on and off. I'm so lazy. I love how easy they're to put on and off. And they are waterproof with all the rain. So that's our little Vessi story. Listen, guys, here's the other thing we're gonna say about it. Make every day a little easier. Visit vessi.com your mother now for 15 off your first pair at checkout and start exploring with confidence. Embrace every journey, rain or shine with Vessey Craig.

[Josh Radner]

Josh, are you enjoying your quince products that you have in your closet these days?

[Craig Thomas]

I'm enjoying them so much, Josh, and so much so that I'm giddy. I'm giddy, damn it. I'm going to read what they told me to say now, even though. But it's coming from the heart. Hey, Josh. With quints, you can get a high end style upgrade with versatile pieces at prices that don't break the bank.

[Josh Radner]

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[Craig Thomas]

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[Josh Radner]

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[Craig Thomas]

And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices along with premium fabrics and finishes. Respect to that, I bought a few extra items of Quint Quint stuff, like a couple pairs of jeans, stuff beyond. They sent us a couple of things and then I like them so much I bought more.

[Josh Radner]

You became a Quince man.

[Craig Thomas]

I'M a Quince man now it's happened.

[Josh Radner]

Indulge in affordable luxury. Go to quince.com/your mother for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E.com/your mother to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com/your mother. And now back to the show. Pam, was there any negotiation between. These guys are actually like we've talked that some of the brilliance of it is they didn't know any better. Like they didn't know you couldn't do xyz, but you had been around the world of sitcoms and didn't you. I mean, you apprenticed with James Burroughs, right? Like that was part of your kind of education of coming up or it feels like you had a. You, you were standing on the shoulders of people who, you know, invent, you know, that kept moving the form forward. And I think that how I met your mother really did move the form forward. Was there any negotiation with, okay, these guys want to try to do something new, but also we have to honor the conventions of this thing at the same time. Was that ever attention?

[Pam Freiman]

I think so. And I think we weren't focused on the something new as much as making the best version of what was created. And when we went to do it, we realized that we couldn't rely on what we had done forever, that it was written in such a specific and such a different and such a great way that we ended up taking four days to shoot the pilot without an audience and decided that if we got picked up, we'd never get picked up. But if we got picked up, we'd probably have an audience. And then when we finished and it was picked up, it was like, we want the show that you shot. And in order to give them that show, we had to sort of. We had to make it a hybrid. We had to make it a multicam when it required it and make it a single cam when it required it. Stay inside, go outside, do all of these things. That kind of blew up the convention of a multicam to serve how I met your mother. And that's what made it so unique.

[Josh Radner]

Was that a tough negotiation, do you remember, with the studio network to throw out the live audience and tape night kind of format?

[Craig Thomas]

Well, just to say she had to explain it to me and Carter first because Carter and I wrote this like 70 page, 70 scene pilot. And we're like, we could still basically do this in front of our audience with a few pre tapes And Susie and Pam had to be like, let me explain how TV works to you guys.

[Josh Radner]

Kids, let me tell you something about television.

[Craig Thomas]

They sat us on the couch, kids. And there was so clearly no way it could be what it was on the page and shoot the traditional way. And you guys really had to explain that to us at a certain point. Like, no, no, no. Lean into it to be something new.

[Pam Freiman]

I remember I was actually in New York once. We got picked up, and I got a call from Dana Walden. I had stopped to get somebody to eat. I got a call from her, and we had a conversation about audience and no audience. And I said, if you want what you just saw, no audience. Yeah, and we'll make it work.

[Craig Thomas]

And she was on board, bringing it back to those quiet moments and the emotional moments in the heart. Like, it's. I think that is a real positive side effect of not having a big bleacher full of 200 people to play to. I really do think it makes a difference.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, we. We've talked a lot, Pam, on the show, about that. There was something it was tough to be inside of because you couldn't depend. You know, the crew would laugh once they'd chuckled, maybe again. And then you were just having to trust that you were landing your jokes. You had to almost hear the laughter, like, in your mind, because the laughter was piped in afterwards. But I always maintain that it kept us from being overly amped up. It kept us grounded in this almost, like, much more cinematic, realistic way. So. So when we got to, you know, we just did. Nothing good happens after 2am which is such a good episode and such a darkly funny episode without a ton of jokes. But it's the kind of episode where you have 18 episodes behind it, like pulling the arrow back, you know, on the bow, and it just sails. So it's got so much momentum. But I think, like, the kind of acting that's done between that me and Kobi were doing, that me and Ashley were doing in that episode is you, you, you. It would be really hard to do that with, like, 200, you know, people eating sweet tarts. Like, it's just like. It was just a different. It was just a different vibe on.

[Pam Freiman]

The set, you know, it was a completely different vibe. The jokes. To me, the jokes would never have been satisfying for an audience. Cause they happened on the edit so many times, right? And it allowed us to have all of these sets and all of this time to get it right. And we always had great writers on stage, as well as Cardew and Craig. And you could feel it. And you guys were reacting to each other, which was so great. And we all knew when we had it. And it happened so quickly. It wasn't like we needed the first season to get the rhythm. It's just, it just happened so organically. And when you look at all of these episodes, because I've been watching with you guys, my God, that first season was unbelievable.

[Craig Thomas]

It's good. It holds up. It knows what it is right away.

[Josh Radner]

There's some real bangers in that first season. We're pretty impressed with what we were able to do that first season.

[Pam Freiman]

Yeah.

[Alec Lev]

Craig, can you just talk a little bit and maybe Pam too about the. It's not unheard of. And I know, Pam, that you've actually done it yourself, but most television shows do not have a single director directing 99.9% of the shows. You have maybe some in the first season and then you start cycling them in and the show has its own rhythm and its own feel. And so a new director has to be a part of that. They're serving that feel. But this was a very, very different situation. Can you talk a little bit about the choice to do that or Craig, was it like, pam, we just want you to stay forever, please?

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, I mean, it was 100% that. I mean, I can't explain that. Going back to that Starbucks for a minute when Pam walked in, it was just like, we love her. We had heard every amazing thing about her that turns out to be true and then some. When you really work with her and meet her and then she was the mode, the in demand. She was the belle of the ball every pilot season and everyone was like, you're not going to get her. You're not going to get her. You're not going to get her. Pam has 20 other offers. Why would she go with the script that two 29 year old guys who've never run a TV show wrote? Maybe we're just 30. Why would she choose. What kind of idiot would choose that one to direct? And it turns out Pam was.

[Pam Freiman]

Do you know what it is? It's another love story connected to this show. Because for me, you know, and I fell in love and it turned out I didn't want to share it with anybody and I wanted to be there every week. I mean, every day. Driving onto that lot was the best experience. I mean, it was, you know, something.

[Josh Radner]

You, I think, helped the whole cast. And I'm sure Carter and Craig with was because you had had such a sampling of the many varieties of How TV shows can be, how the, what the egos can be like, what the schedule can be like. And you were constantly reminding us, this is wonderful. Like I had less to compare it to, you know, and, and it was really like you. There was this constant, in addition to all the other many incredible things you were doing just professionally, just personally, you would pull us aside and, and it was always like, remember, like to pinch ourselves. This is a really good job. We have something very special here. And your presence and fidelity and dedication to the show, the fact that you didn't want to go anywhere and you could have been anywhere else was a signal to us like, oh, this is a good gig. This is like something to really take seriously. This is something to value. This is something to just feel very grateful for. And I'm grateful for you for helping me stay in that space.

[Pam Freiman]

It was lovely to be able to sort of parent the five of you, especially my friend Joshua in the beginning.

[Craig Thomas]

And me and Carter too. We were all the same age.

[Pam Freiman]

Yeah. But in the beginning, Josh, I remember it was so overwhelming to say you're going to be on a show and people are going to stop you on the street. It's a lot. It's a lot.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. And I think especially it was, you know, Kobi was new to it, but there was something, I don't know, there's something about Kobi, she's just a little to the manor born, you know, like she just, she just kind of stepped into it a little more effortlessly than I did. And Allie, very aggressive. And Neil and Jason had had, they had had public things, they had had people stop them in airports and on the street. They were a little more used to that. This was my first go at this. This was my first, you know, when I did the Graduate, I was famous on a half block of West 45th street from o' clock to 10:15 every night. And then I rounded the corner and I was back to being anonymous. So, you know, this was really new to me and it was very destabilizing, as you remember. And you were really, you couldn't have been more kind and loving to me throughout all that. And, and also I remember very strongly you telling me this isn't going to give you everything you need artistically. You gotta, you're gonna have to do other stuff to supplement this wonderful, wonderful job which really edged me into, you know, making my own movies and really creating this kind of multi hyphenate life that I live now, today. So just, just endlessly grateful to you. You know, how Much. I love you, but I'd like to stay home.

[Pam Freiman]

And I'm. I'm wildly proud of you.

[Craig Thomas]

Well, I felt undermined by you the whole time.

[Josh Radner]

Do you remember we talked about it? Do you remember every. Do you remember meeting me? Let's talk about meeting me. You do?

[Pam Freiman]

I do.

[Josh Radner]

What was that like?

[Pam Freiman]

I remember that. I remember that whole process. It was just so fun to read something and then to meet you and go, yes, yes.

[Josh Radner]

Right, right.

[Pam Freiman]

Because you lead with your heart. You always lead with your heart. And it's. Talk about a tricky role to play.

[Josh Radner]

Well, it was also. I mean, we've talked about it, but I was the first person on the first day of auditions, which must have been a little weird to go, wait, I think this is the guy. But we haven't seen any other guys, right?

[Pam Freiman]

Gosh, I remember all of those auditions. I remember Neil coming in and throwing him against the wall. All that crazy stuff.

[Josh Radner]

Do you think I. We've been talking a little bit about. I think that sometimes we overvalue effort and we overvalue things. Like, you know, a struggle or. I saw a thousand people before we found our person. Like, sometimes when things are right, you have to. You almost have to kick the tires a little bit to see, because sometimes you're like, how could it be that easy? How could. How could the cast just come together so perfectly? How could. You know, Craig loves Buffy? How did Ali say yes? Like, there were just certain things that dropped into place in a somewhat effortless way. And it can be hard, I think, to trust that, but I think in this case, it was to be trusted. The right people signed on for the right roles.

[Pam Freiman]

It was absolutely to be trusted. And what we learned was that the effort was taking this gargantuan series and fitting it into three days. Hats off to Michael Shea and Susie and everybody else. But that was. To get it done was really something. And we did. Every week. Every week.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes. And thank you, Pam, for not being. Thank you for not being scared off by how ambitious the show was. It was written so recklessly and with such abandoned, like, kind of guileless abandon. We didn't know any better. So we just wrote what we wanted to see. You could have seen that and been like, who the hell are these guys? And run screaming from it. Even after the pilot, the pilot, four day, big beast of a shoot, you're like, no, I want that challenge. Susie was the same way. Our whole creative team and the cast were just up for the challenge. And I think Josh is right. There was something Effortless about it. It was like the script was its own little magnet that drew people to it. It was bigger than Carter or me or any of us. And it was like, thank God. It just felt. It felt a little bit magical. I mean, it did. It felt magical. It felt like it called the right people.

[Pam Freiman]

And you realize that nine years is a long time, and there are always so many changes behind the scenes. There were so few changes on our show, specifically on stage. Couple people. We lost a couple of people. But everybody wanted to be there. Everybody. And when there was something tricky to shoot, everybody's hand lit up. Let me do it. Yeah, let me do it. It was. It was like, we. You know, we owned it. We owned it.

[Josh Radner]

This is just. I haven't thought about this in years. But Chris was Chris camera. A. Not Chris.

[Pam Freiman]

Chris Condi.

[Josh Radner]

Yes.

[Pam Freiman]

Chris Condi was X. Yes.

[Josh Radner]

Oh, X. Right.

[Pam Freiman]

She was X camera. Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

So I remember when there were three cameras going and her camera wasn't on. She would always, like, frame up something really beautiful to look at. Always, like an incredible. Like, a portrait or like a shot that you just. There was such, like. She's literally, like, stepping away for a shot. Like, she doesn't need to be there because her camera's not on, but she would give you guys something at the monitor to look at. And I always thought that was, like, something so sweet and delicate and beautiful that didn't need to be done.

[Pam Freiman]

Pride of ownership.

[Josh Radner]

Right. It was kind of like we were trying to create an environment that was.

[Pam Freiman]

Beautiful because of you guys. Everybody on that stage felt lucky. Everybody felt lucky to be there.

[Josh Radner]

Right, Right.

[Pam Freiman]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Did you ever kick back, like, a Friday night late at night and go, jesus, I can't believe how much we shot in three days.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Seriously.

[Josh Radner]

Almost every Friday night.

[Craig Thomas]

Every week. Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Pam Freiman]

But you were busy reading the next script going, wait, a music video?

[Craig Thomas]

Wait, what are we in a mall? We're in an 80s mall, but it's the 90s in Canada. Ostensibly. Like, everything we did was so confusing. And you're like, y do it. We got this. We have a plan. Yeah. We could not scare you we could not scare you away and oh, how we tried so many times with our ambition.

[Josh Radner]

Are there any episodes, whether it's first season or from any season that you just kind of like, are just top three moments on How I Met yout Mother. Like, I always think about us dancing in the rain for some reason after the hurricane episode.

[Pam Freiman]

There's so many moments, but. Drumroll, please. That you did. Not that long ago. I mean, can you beat that?

[Josh Radner]

I remember you coming into my trailer and insisting that Ashley and I watch it after you got the cut.

[Pam Freiman]

Isn't that funny? Yes.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Pam Freiman]

There are way too many moments. Really, way too many moments to list. And that was part of what kept me there. There were constant moments where I would. As we were watching the cuts, it would be like, look at what we did. Yeah, look at what we did.

[Josh Radner]

Would you just talk me through this? Like, so would sue do her own cut? Like a rough assembly. Right. And then who would watch it next? Would it be Carter and Craig would watch it next? Oh, that would be you. So you'd get a director. Like a pass. Like a director pass.

[Pam Freiman]

Exactly. And I would never call a Sue Fetterman cut rough, man.

[Josh Radner]

Russia. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

The multiple Emmy winning.

[Pam Freiman]

Unbelievable. But she had so much stuff to go through. A lot of times we would talk beforehand so I could give her a heads up on, you know, certain things. But, yeah, it was me and then.

[Josh Radner]

It was the guys and was a lot of that cutting or tweaking or.

[Pam Freiman]

Yeah, yeah, it was. I actually did this. Look for this shot. Look for this. What if we do this? What if we pull this up? What if we. You know, it was just. It's a director's cut.

[Josh Radner]

Do you have weird. Without Janet's, like, script. Scripty book. Do you remember there's that famous. I don't know if you guys know this, but there's that famous press conference after LeBron had a game and someone asked him about a shot, and he said, well, you have to go back to. And he went back, like, eight plays in the game. And he described everything that happened up and down the court for, like, eight plays. And you realize, oh, he's an actual genius of basketball. Like, he has photographic memory of every play leading up to the. Whatever play they're asking about. And did you have that kind of recall? Like, if you would see something, I would have this in movies where. That I directed. Where I go. No, no, no. I remember Lizzie Olsen had a single teardrop down the left eye. We have to find it. I know it's in there. Did you have that where you would. Would remember?

[Pam Freiman]

Absolutely. Don't ask. Don't ask me now, but at the time, absolutely. Because you. You do. You're sitting there, you're watching everything. I've wr. I've taken notes and I'm so in it. But now when I'm watching these shows, as you guys are going through them, I'm like, my God, so much I have forgotten and yet I remember where the sets were on the stage, like the placement. It's like, you know, yes. The answer to that question is yes at the time for sure.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Pam, one of your superpowers, I think was making the cast feel so safe, I think, and also making Carter and I feel safe to try stuff. And again, you were one of the earliest votes for this pilot. You were one of the earliest people who put their hand up and said, yes, this will work. At a time when we didn't know what we were doing, you gave us a lot of confidence. How do you do that? It's such a natural talent of yours. You had the ability with these five new people in this show and we even talked about this with Ashley Williams kind of parachuting in, in the middle of the season, needing to join a cast. You had such an intuition of who needed to hear what, when, who needed encouragement. If you had to dial something back, is that just like, can that be taught? You just have this like a very empathetic, intuitive sense of people. I think I'm a mom.

[Pam Freiman]

I'm a mom. I mean that's kind of a lot of it. And I really did, I mean that's who I am. That's how I approach things. I'm, I guess I nurture and I, I really, I know it sounds so trite but I, I loved these five act, I, I, they're a part of me. We fell and I wanted to take care of them, believe that if you nurture that kind of a relationship and they know that they are seen and heard and valued, they want to be there, they want to do their best work. All of that, everybody, it's a, it is such a team sport and it's, it's just, it's such a lucky seat to band for me. I can't tell you how grateful I am. And people are still coming up to me to say great things about this show. It changed my life in such a beautiful way. And here we are together in 2025 because we still love each other and because what we did still resonates. I mean, my God, how lucky as that.

[Josh Radner]

And this old man, he must admit he fell in love with you.

[Craig Thomas]

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[Josh Radner]

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[Alec Lev]

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[Pam Freiman]

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[Jordana]

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[Pam Freiman]

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[Josh Radner]

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[Pam Freiman]

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[Pam Freiman]

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[Jordana]

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[Pam Freiman]

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[Craig Thomas]

End of commercial. Back to show.

[Josh Radner]

Well, we're so constantly struck by the meta kind of quality of we were making a show about a guy's memories about these very special times that imprinted on his heart, you know, these moments that were worth remembering and worth telling about and worth passing on to his kids. But we ourselves were imprinting these memories of the making of this show upon our heart at the same time. Like it was. It exists on so many different, strange levels of meaning, what this show is. And I just want to say vis a vis, you know, like the way you needed to talk to the all five of us. Those are five different languages. Like, you didn't talk to me and Neil the same way. You didn't talk to Ali and Jason the same way. Like, everyone requires a different kind of handling or needs to be seen or appreciated in a different way, including the crew, including every single person on that set. And I did think that you were, you have. And this is not something that can be taught. You can't get an MFA in this, you know, like, how to read a room, how to read people. And I just thought it's one of your real superpowers of, of helping people feel seen and heard so that they can do their best work. Because we've all had experiences where we don't feel that. And it, I, I clench up. I get like, I can't actually do my best work. So. So I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm just so grateful to you for that. I did want to ask you. Directing a show like this, or even directing more generally, is. I don't think a lot of people understand it. Generally directing. I don't know. I don't know if a lot of people understand what the job is. Do you have a way to describe your job or how do you describe it? Like when people who really don't know what it is, like, what would you say you do?

[Pam Freiman]

I get it done. I get it from the script to the tv in a very general sense. General sense.

[Craig Thomas]

General sense for all of us letting it up here.

[Pam Freiman]

You know, I'm sure you've talked about how the week works. You know, how you read it, you have a production meeting, you get, you know, whatever. We rehearse it, we fine tune it, we show it to everybody. And then, more than anything, with the help of a spectacular AD that team, we sit down and figure out, how do we get all of this done in this amount of time? And we move things around, which is one of the trickiest parts. And then we say, action. And we, for me, as you know, always looking at my watch as well as looking at the monitor, very aware of. Of what the job is. I can't at the end of the week say, oh, sorry, we didn't get all of that accomplished. So I was very aware of the restraints of the schedule. But because we didn't have to worry about an audience and because we had such a great freedom to explore when we were allowed to talk to each other, to talk to cameras, and to get everybody to be a part of it, to be able to say to a camera operator, here's what I'm thinking. What do you think? Like, that's a great. You don't get to do that on a normal show. There's no time. But it's. But there's somebody who's behind that camera who sees things in a certain way. I do, too, but so do they. Let's get their take on this. And we got to sort of empower everybody on that stage in the. The most profound way to me to. To get everybody to step up and. And take ownership of what we were creating. So we get to do all of that. You get to check these box, you know, crossing off, you know, giving you. Giving you notes. By the end of it, I was texting Jason from my chair because everybody had their phones. I was like, can you do this in this scene? And you just see him look at it and go, okay. It became. It was just so. It was just so. So magical. But get it done. And we got. And. And we got it done. We got it done.

[Josh Radner]

You know, in grad school, I worked with a wonderful director named Ken Washington. And he told me that when he was younger, as a director, he thought all the good ideas had to come from him or they didn't count. And as he got older, he Realized good ideas can come from anywhere, and they should come from anywhere. You know, you're gonna. You're expanding your palette so much more. If you ask the camera op, what do you think is the best way to get this shot? You know, and. And. But. But it also, you know, to take the architecture metaphor, it. It feels like Carter and Craig and the writing staff hand you a blueprint, right? And you're. On some level. Tell me if you agree with this or not. Like a bit of the contractor. Like, you have to figure out how to build the building from the thing they gave you. They give you the specs, they give you. You know, and you have to figure out, how do we bring this into form? How do we bring this into reality? Does that resonate with.

[Pam Freiman]

It does. But the beauty is that the architects don't go away and that every day we're meeting, so that when I put something up and show it to them, we can tweak it. Because it's like detective work, really. They've written this script upstairs. We haven't seen it because we're working on something else, and we get it. And all of a sudden we're like, okay, here's what I think. You mean, here's what I think will tell the story. And then the beauty is I get to do that and turn around and go, guys, what do you think? Is this. Are we on the same page? And most of the time we were, but sometimes they were like, how about this? And again, collaboration. Collaboration.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, it was. So all the writers felt that way, Pam and I don't think that's necessarily how writers always feel about directors, if I may be so bold. Like, you were just so welcoming and open to trying stuff. And we would sit. You would have the writers sit right around you and just watch and watch takes. And there's that quad split, the four shots, four different cameras on a big TV screen. And you would. You would turn to us and say, what do you think? Or if we had a pitch, you'd say, let's give that a try. And then when you would go in and try and it wouldn't work, you wouldn't make us feel like assholes or anything. You'd be like, all right, we tried that, but that didn't really.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

You're always so kind. And if. And if it did work, you'd be like, that's great. And also this other idea, and it was. It was so safe of a creative space. We talk about this a lot on the podcast. I just don't believe in fear leading to good work. And there's this funny misconception I think in a lot of endeavors of all different, different shades and corporate, artistic, whatever. And I think this is the tone you set on stage when we're creating something is proof positive that people feel valued and safe to pitch things and safe to try things. And everyone's idea could get on and could be the best idea. It doesn't matter who. That's a really wonderful thing. And that was really important as young writers who had not run their own TV show to feel with the director. I don't know what we would have done if after that pilot you were like, I've gotta go take these other 175 offers I have and left us. And we'd had to sort of figure it out week to week with other directors and maybe not had that same dynamic and the cast wouldn't have had that same feeling of safety and playfulness and curiosity. I think it's a different show. I just think it's a completely different show.

[Pam Freiman]

Yeah, but don't forget that you all made me better.

[Craig Thomas]

Better.

[Pam Freiman]

You, you pushed me. It wasn't, it wasn't one sided. I mean, I, I don't want to.

[Craig Thomas]

Fight about this, Pam. It's you, it's all you.

[Pam Freiman]

After all these years, after all these years, you, you did, you, you pushed me, you made me better. You forced me into uncomfortable situations and I had to figure them out. It was.

[Craig Thomas]

There was a lot of painting ourselves into corners, wasn't there? There was a lot of, like, how do we get out of this one?

[Josh Radner]

Well, it's a. There's a great cor quote from some sculptor says your life must be. You have to ask yourself a question that you spend your whole life trying to figure out. And the only caveat is you must never be able to figure it out. Like there's something about an insoluble question or unsolvable question that it's like as artists, like if something's too easy, it's almost like a difficulty of a puzzle or something. Like if it's too easy, it's not fun. It doesn't engage us. If it's too hard, it makes us give up. But there's a certain level of difficult that I think as artists, like we want and we need because it's enough of a pressure cooker that it pushes you towards innovation and outside the box thinking and that we constantly had to do that. You know, I also think vis a vis. I wanted to say having guest directors like the culture on stage 22 was very particular. There was a very particular tone that I think we, we, we just created this thing and some guest stars just got it immediately and would waltz in and, and, and, and, you know, I think we actually, it was hard on some level to guest star, but we also made it pretty homey and fun for people to guest star. But I think it would have been really hard to have had someone at the helm constantly changing. So I'm just echoing what Craig said that it was so wonderful for the show to have your steadiness and your just there, your presence was so. Your reliable thereness was everything.

[Craig Thomas]

We love you, Pam. That's the theme of this episode. Here's how much we love you. We're not even gonna talk about Mary the paralegal at all. Cause we can't stop talking about how much we love love you. And the last thing I'll point out before we should pivot to that episode for at least 10 minutes is that Pam left. I think you left Two and a Half Men to come work with us, right? You were on the show Two and a Half Men. That was by far the number one comedy. I think you were the main director on that. She left the number one comedy, number highest rated comedy on TV to come onto this weird experimental show written by two 30 year olds with a cast of a bunch of new newbies. Like Josh was newer to TV Coke. Just the leap of faith that you took there.

[Pam Freiman]

Best, best decision. Best decision.

[Alec Lev]

Two things. One for me and then one from someone I think Josh might want to introduce because it goes right to everything that we've been saying here, Pam. So I interviewed you, Pam, for the old version of this podcast. And something you said to me then has echoed anytime I've been on set. And it's so much of what Craig and Josh have been talking about. I asked you, we were talking about process of directing, same question Josh had had. What do you do? And I said, well, what's the most important part for you? And you said, making sure that everyone's enjoying themselves. Which is. That was not taught to me in director's school. We didn't pause for a week and talk about everyone should be happy and having fun. And that of all the choices of character development, story development, schedule, budget, that was by quickly. Your answer was clear and is clear from this discussion and has affected me very much. So I thank you for it. But also just to tell, tell the guys, this is her answer. This is what she was there for.

[Pam Freiman]

You know, I will Just tell you that it come because I had done it for a while before that not all sets are like this. Not all sets are warm and fuzzy and all of that. And to be able to make that the Mandate on stage 22, this is the nicest place you're ever going to work. We're going to work hard, but we're going to. To love each other and respect each other, to be able to create that. I mean, that's. That's why you stay for nine years.

[Craig Thomas]

I hope you're listening, young directors of the next generation, because we want more like that.

[Josh Radner]

This. This brings us up to a recurring segment on the show that we like to call Questions and observations from a clinical psychologist who's never seen How I met your Mother and also how happens to be married to Josh.

[Jordana]

Hi, Pam. I know we haven't had much time to connect in person, but I've heard so much about you. And the thing I've maybe heard most frequently was that on the set of How I Met yout Mother, you were the mother that you were nurturing, that you were always working to make people feel safe and helping them live up to their artistic potential. So I was wondering if you could talk about that more specifically if you were conscious of playing this archetype or if it was just intuitive for you, if you fall into this role on other sets or if it felt like you were particularly pulled into it on him for some reason. And then lastly, if you feel comfortable sharing what were some of the unique ways you may have connected with or mothered in a certain way, Josh and Craig or maybe some of the other actors on set who you knew needed your support in order to live up to their potential on the show.

[Pam Freiman]

My God, why is she so smart? She's so smart. She's just so smart.

[Craig Thomas]

Now you're doing it to Jordana. You're doing it to Jordana. Now you're being that person.

[Josh Radner]

You're so nurturing towards my wife and her question.

[Craig Thomas]

I.

[Pam Freiman]

It's true. I mean, by the way, this is me. This is, you know. Yes. Intuitive. Treat people the way you want to be treated. Just really simple stuff. I can't exactly put it into words. I appreciate the opportunity of getting to mother people. I see, I think what they may need, and not only can they get things from me, but in that process, I'm getting something back. And this particular place with these particular people made it so easy and so fulfilling. And I do, obviously, I'm myself on every set, but there are so many times when There are other layers because I'm obviously not working in a vacuum. Lots of producers, lots of, you know, that prevent me from being my true self. You know, I'm not the final word on everything. But, but on this particular show, everybody. And it stops with Carter and Craig. All these people had the biggest hearts and were compassionate and smart and wise and creative and all of those crazy, ridiculous, wonderful adjectives. So it made it all. It was the perfect storm of wonderful. It was the perfect storm.

[Josh Radner]

It also strikes me, though, that you were, since you were there at the beginning, you, you got to help set the tone. You weren't brought into a kind of functioning factory of something that already had its own culture. You were, you were asked to help institute and, and create the culture. So it was, it's almost like, you know, they say like, like, you know, if you don't like kids, it's like, well, you'll like your own kids. Like, you'll, you'll feel you're. When you raise your own kids, they have a different quality to you. Right? And you were, this show was your, your kids. You know, we were your kids.

[Pam Freiman]

And, and I, by the way, I still kind of feel that way. Kind of, kind of still do.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Pam Freiman]

Very proud. Very proud of my kids.

[Craig Thomas]

Thank you. How lucky are we really am.

[Pam Freiman]

I really am. Are we really not going to talk about this? Yeah, I feel like we have to. It's so funny.

[Craig Thomas]

Let's. Let'.

[Josh Radner]

Did you watch it? Did you rewatch it?

[Pam Freiman]

Absolutely. Sandy Rivers. Come on.

[Craig Thomas]

How did it feel to you rewatching it 20 years later, 19 years later? What jumped out at you?

[Pam Freiman]

It just, I mean, looks that way. Looks that way. It was fantastic from beginning.

[Josh Radner]

Then when I say that everyone, they would laugh, the crew would laugh once and then stop. Not for looks that way, looks that way. It killed at the table read every time. It killed at the run through. It killed at the rehearsal, and it killed when he did it.

[Craig Thomas]

We missed not doing a spin off of Sandy Rivers, by the way. That was, that was one of our. There's not too many regrets, but how much fun was Alexis Denisov having? And with this, you know what's funny, too? There's that moment where there. Where Lily kind of snaps at him. Lily, who has been deprived of her nap time at school. It was also her nap. Not just the kindergartner's nap time, her nap time. She snaps at Alexis and it's so funny. Just as a married couple, that's their first interaction, like on a tv other than on, like Buffy and Amy Angel. And she's basically just tells him to shut the up. And there's something that I just laughed so hard. Just like that's their inaugural himyum interaction.

[Pam Freiman]

Everything in his hair just all good.

[Josh Radner]

This is so dumb. This is so dumb to say about actors. But I was watching it and I was like, Lily and Sandy Rivers look like they don't know each other. Like, I know they're playing characters, but they're married. They're married people. And they were just like, doing good acting. Yeah, they're good actors. Yeah.

[Pam Freiman]

There was more product in his hair. I just remember going into hair and makeup and it just was. It was just fantastic.

[Craig Thomas]

Marshall hidings. I've been hiding small items in his hair all night. Really surprised. I really forgot that he had been hiding. And then I remembered there was going to be that payoff. And you have to wait a while to get to the payoff. And when he turns and leaves, there's a little cocktail worth it.

[Josh Radner]

So, Alec, when did this episode air? What. What was the air date of this episode? Episode?

[Alec Lev]

April 24, 2006.

[Craig Thomas]

Ah, coming up on May sweeps, when that used to be a thing, all.

[Pam Freiman]

Of those telepathic conversations.

[Josh Radner]

Wait, Craig, real quick, just tell. Just tell our listeners what. What this episode's about. Just. Can you summarize it real quick for people just to.

[Craig Thomas]

Right. Yeah. So this is. Robin has been nominated for a local area Media Media Award or a lama. And the whole gang is going to go there. She is taking her fellow newscaster, Sandy Rivers, who's this incredibly cheesy newscaster, very full of himself, even though he's on this crappy little channel. And Robin is taking him as her date. And it makes Ted want to take a date too, because Robin and Ted are on the outs and each wants to make the other jealous. And Barney says, well, you should take a paid escort. And Ted says no. And Barney brings. Delivers said paid escort to Ted anyway. And of course the big twist ended.

[Josh Radner]

Up who happens to live in his building.

[Craig Thomas]

Who happens to live in his building. And at the end, she was not actually that Barney was just completely fucking with Ted the whole time. And hilarity ensues. But there is this emotional through line of Robin and Ted that sort of gives this suspense and tension through the whole episode. It's a kind of light, funny one in other ways.

[Pam Freiman]

We've been talking, Pam, about at the hotel door.

[Josh Radner]

I remember shooting that so well. But we've been talking about the kind of thing that Carter and Craig and the writers had to do a lot, which was you would have these episodes that had a comic conceit at the center of them. The comic conceit is that Ted thinks he's on a date with a prostitute, and it turns out he's not. I mean, that's the kind of core comedy engine. But you have this Ted. It furthers the emotional kind of drama of Ted and Robin and them kind of using these dates to kind of, like, dig at each other. And it's pretty devastating. Robyn's thanking her friends at the awards podium and not thanking Ted. Like, it moves the plot down the field. But it also is a standalone episode in its own way.

[Pam Freiman]

Absolutely. I mean, so character driven, though. So character. You learn so much.

[Craig Thomas]

It's hard to shoot. So that's also not your typical how I met your mother episode, where they were all together at this huge set. Right. We built this huge kind of banquet hall set with a stage and all of these weird extras. And it's like the local area TV celebrities, including this weird vampire guy who's based on, I think, a guy named superhost that used to host a local TV show in Cleveland when Carter was growing up. So that's what Carter loved, getting to sort of do a version of this weird but beloved local TV personality from Cleveland. And so what was it like? How do you hold onto the energy? Cause shooting in one big place for a lot of the episode, I found that hard to do. Hard to write, anyway. Hard to write. And you're, like, moving the people around this big shared space. That was one of the first times we did an episode like that. Right. All in one huge set. And obviously, we pop around a bit.

[Pam Freiman]

But it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, which is this is there couldn't be an audience because you couldn't shoot something like that because.

[Craig Thomas]

That ate up half the stage.

[Josh Radner]

Right.

[Pam Freiman]

You know, so we got to do it a little differently, a little better. And Josh will tell you, I just. As soon as we started rolling, I'd.

[Craig Thomas]

Yell energy, because it is. Energy diffuses in those huge sets. Yeah, yeah.

[Pam Freiman]

Every take is the first take. You know, I mean, you really have to perform.

[Josh Radner]

And then what people don't understand is, like, the ex. There's, you know, 50 or. I don't know how many extras are just milling about and they're. They're miming and talking, but not making noise. Like, it's really. It's a strange thing, you know? Then the mics are over, the main characters trying to get the. It's I don't think people understand how, you know, set culture is a whole different thing. One thing that I was struck with, I was thinking about Vampire Lou and Korean Elvis and Sandy Rivers and I wonder, Craig, if you guys. It felt like. Cause I've been watching some old Simpsons. Like, it felt like how the Simpsons populates the town with these. These second and third kind of tier characters like Disco Stu and Mo and Barney and like all. You know what I'm saying? Like, you. You populate the town. And I felt like you guys did a really great job at creating these. These characters who were not part of the main Five gang. But you could turn. You could go back to the. Well, Ranjit being a great example because it. Cause it's. It made. We talked about it made New York feel like this small, magical town, even though it's one of the biggest cities in the world.

[Craig Thomas]

I love the. I love the moments we got to do that because. And I think Robin's job gave you a lot of that. Like, Robin's the lens on New York through, like the small town news. That is like, there really is a new. It's basically New York one, right? It's New York one in New York. And there really was a guy on there who. He was not like Sandy Rivers, but he would read the headlines from the newspaper as one of the morning segments on the show. He may still be doing it. He's definitely still on New York 1, because I see him some. This guy, Pat Kiernan. I kind of love him. He's great. He's. He's a New York celebrity and just. It feels like a small town at times. New York. It really does. And people in subway ads and local TV ads and stuff. I think the world has lost so much of that as the world gets more digital and stuff. But you are. It's a small town, right. Your little slice of New York is your own little small town. And I think this episode had some.

[Josh Radner]

Of that in it.

[Craig Thomas]

I love that feeling.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. I might have said this last episode, but was it. Was it in. Nothing good happens after 2am where Sandy propositions Robin and says having sex is fun. What was that?

[Craig Thomas]

I think that was in that. Yeah. Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

But I think I just want to repeat that. Alexis Denisov. I don't know how he does this, and I think it's kind of an actor magic trick. He is playing a buffoonish, broad, broadly drawn character with deep and impressive subtlety. Like, it's. It's. He's doing two things at once that are it makes it so much funnier because you kind of feel like this could be an actual human. This would be a ridiculous human. But I believe that this is a human being, you know, who made some choices somewhere along the way that got him to be Sandy Rivers. You know, that's not his real name, you know, but just shout out to Alexis. Such an incredible performance.

[Pam Freiman]

And a shout out to is Chris Harris. Right? This is Chris Harris.

[Josh Radner]

She.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, Chris Harris, one of the all time great hymn writers, wrote this one. I think this is the third one of season one. And yeah, and it's the introduction of Marshall saying lawyered, which we did a hundred more times in nine seasons. Lawyered. It's the introduction of telepathy, the characters speaking through telepathy. It's the first time we did that. I love that bit and I love the magical realism that it really works. At one point in this episode, like Lily really hears it and she says she's a prostitute. That was like. I love the sort of absolute, absolutely supernatural. She really can hear Marshall's thoughts. Yeah. I love how many sort of first things I do want to say. There is one thing in here I really didn't like. I just want to say it because we're kind of owning some things. And there's a moment in here where Barney makes reference to like a prostitute, where he uses a disparaging word for the trans community that I think 20 years ago we were too young and ignorant to realize. You should not say. And it is a show of love. It is a show of hope.

[Josh Radner]

Heart.

[Craig Thomas]

This was a rare moment where I think we got it wrong. And I think, like looking back 20 years later, it just feels important to own some of those moments. I think at the time it was like, oh, there's. There's sort of a. It's like a comedy thing. You can say. No, it's not. It's not a good comedy word. It's not an acceptable thing to say. And I wanted to especially say it because of our beautiful opening message from that How I Met yout Mother fan who said he feels so seen. He has autism, he has cerebral palsy. He's a person living with those challenges is. I became a parent of a kid with a disability between year two and year three of How I Met yout Mother, Pam. Many deep talks were had, many talk about Pam knowing what people need and getting people through the hard times to still do the work. You were that for me very much in that moment. And just the way that changed my perspective on using certain Words as if they're okay. Comedy words. The disability community has very strong opinions about that. And I've learned so much about that. And looking back on how maybe in my 20s or being in comedy writers rooms, words are thrown about. And it's just interesting. Even in a show that I'm so proud of and there's so much love in it that we could get something like that wrong and sort of not know any better, you know, not like I'm really surprised there's not too many of them. But as we go through season one, we're almost done with season one. There's a few of those moments where I go, boy, would I not say that that same way. I just felt like it was important to own that. I think there will be more moments like that moving forward. But I think all you can do when you've made a mistake like that is own it and just say sorry and just learn and try to do better and try to be more respectful. So I just wanted to bring that up because it feels weird to not say it. It jumped out at me. I love this episode. And again, no one in that writer's room is anything but an open, warm hearted person. No one wanted to be throwing slurs around. But there it is. There is that wrong word in there. And I just want to say from all of us, I know Carter very, very much feels the same way. Just our apologies for getting things like that wrong. We didn't know, but better and we've.

[Josh Radner]

We'Ve learned it's like that, that Tony, I think it's Toni Morrison who says, you know, when you know better, you do better. Like you. You know, I think that's, that's, that's what this is about. So, you know, I just to get back to the episode, I telepathy. When people ask me like, what are some of your favorite how I met your mother Runners. I love intervention banner is so funny to me. Yeah. But telepathy is. I don't know why it's so funny because one, I just love having to do the silent. It's like you have to be a silen film star in those moments.

[Craig Thomas]

You're doing some good eyebrow acting in this.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, I mean I think like our stand ins would read the lines, right. And we would do just face acting.

[Pam Freiman]

We would record you. We recorded you at the top of the scenes and we would play. And we would play you back.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, that's right.

[Craig Thomas]

Right.

[Josh Radner]

But there's also something. So I think the reason it's particularly funny is because when you become such dear friends with people, when you become a trot, you do. You have it. You have telepathy. I mean, you might get it wrong, you might not, but you do have so much unspoken between you. And there's so much. There's so many furtive glances. And I know what you're thinking or, you know, hitting under the table because you, you, you're both thinking the same thing. So I just thought it was a great way to deepen and reveal their friendship more, you know, that they're. What do you say, one of our famous. You know, that's very Gene shepherd. Right? Our famous telepathic conversations. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes. Branding the thing and saying, this is a historical document of this famous thing we did. Recurring. Yeah. Cause it's future Ted's story in his life. That's a famous known thing that his group would do. And were those fun to shoot, Pam? That definitely felt like something you were not probably shooting on other sitcoms. It's so weird.

[Pam Freiman]

It was hilarious. And that's why I remember, because we wouldn't record. And then just to play it back.

[Craig Thomas]

And watch you act to your own voice. Yeah. Josh is acting to his read, so that's why it's so good.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. You know, I've heard from so many people and we've talked about this, but I, I'm now friends. Like my friend Nima grew up in Tehran in Iran, and he learned English from watching Scrubs and how I met your mother and friends. Like, that's how he learned to speak English. And I've heard it from so many people. But I think it's also funny. As I watch this show and I watch with, sometimes it'll occur to me like, oh, this is teaching people English. And it's also teaching them some incredibly strange way words. Like, I thought about like hayseed Curtis, you know, cabron. I mean, they would know cabon. But there's just so many funny words and turns of phrase that they'd be like, what is that like.

[Craig Thomas]

And then if you're like, like busting your apple bag.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, yeah, bust your. But if someone, if a non English speaker said, oh, I learned the way word hay seed. I'm like, you're not going to use that that much. Like you, you don't, you don't have to. You don't have to keep that one in your back pocket. But yeah, I mean, I loved there. I loved the first time Marshall cues up for lawyering. Barney. There's something Jason would do. Like his kind of like licking his Lips and getting ready to lawyer someone was always so funny to me. I loved 1 out of 5, 1 out of 6, 1 out of 8 women in America is a prostitute, which is very funny. Bunch of naked dudes, hanging brain. I never heard that phrase before. I said good day was so funny.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, he's waiting to get out the second half of that.

[Josh Radner]

It also struck me that Barney is always waiting for Ted's love plans to get foiled so that he can jump in with. So he can pull him over to the dark. The dark side. So he delights in this. This thing that's going on, you know.

[Craig Thomas]

He also has a surprisingly expansive view in this one towards. Towards like prejudices against sex workers. He's kind of like, even though this woman is not actually a prostitute, in the end, Barney sort of has a.

[Josh Radner]

Surprisingly progressive take of like mounts like a beautiful defensive.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah. Like kind of an evolved take and the right take.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Partisans are people like, come on, don't judge someone because of what they do. And of course, it's all complete bullshit. But he's. He's right, right? I mean, if we're talking about, like being a bit little more expansive and progressive minded, Barney actually sort of weirdly espouses some of that in this episode.

[Josh Radner]

I loved Use my full name. People get a kick out of it. Sandy Rivers was so funny.

[Craig Thomas]

He thinks he's so funny.

[Josh Radner]

And you know what else? When Aaron, who played Mary, who was so wonderful, shout out to Aaron. But when she says the name of the law firm that she's a paralegal at, and Marshall's like, that's a real law firm.

[Pam Freiman]

Nice.

[Craig Thomas]

Nicely done. It's so fun knowing he's wrong. And I mean, I think Chris Harris wrote this episode. He's very funny. But I think this particular joke was Steven Lloyd, who's another truly genius himym writer and he was almost on all nine seasons, we can't quite say that about him. Courtney Kang and Chris were door to door, pilot to finale. But Stephen Lloyd joined a little somewhere in the middle of season one and I believe pitched this joke, if I'm not mistaken, where she says the thing about talk about it anal, right? Where she says, I had some guy riding me all day. Talk about anal. We were so deliriously happy that we got that under the radar of the censors. And I think we did talk. I think we did talk about it with them. And we said, but it's not. It's not that she really. She's not a prostitute like you are the logic of it is how he got it on there.

[Josh Radner]

Like, the censors had to have been having a good day that day for that to get through. Because there were other jokes, I think, that were so much less risque that were dick, you know, but that one, the fact that that got through is incredible to me.

[Craig Thomas]

Amazing.

[Josh Radner]

I also love when Ted says. When she says, you know, I've been whatever since I was 16, I'm going on dates. He says, God, you were just a kid.

[Craig Thomas]

That scene is so great. And Pam, that long walk and talk down that hallway, that was all a oner, right? That's one camera pulling back.

[Pam Freiman]

I remember dollying back. And again, we had time. We had no audience, right?

[Craig Thomas]

And we can make a big long hallway set like that. That ate up way too much real estate on a stage for if you had a bleachers. It all comes back. So much comes back to that. What else jumps out to you, Pam? Of like remembering the sense memory of directing this one. Like a shot like that.

[Pam Freiman]

A lot of laughing is really. Is really what I'm remembering. And I'm remembering just the pain in the neck of shooting that round table with everybody. There were so many setups.

[Craig Thomas]

Was there a huge fourth wall? A huge fourth wall was put up, obviously, but like, so that became fully enc.

[Pam Freiman]

Huge. And I'm thinking back to when you were just starting this podcast and you had the audacity to talk about the limo and say, was it just a limo? And I'm like, oh, my God, how do they not remember the limo? The longest week of my life.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, we. I said, pam, we'll make that. We'll correct this when you're on the show. So tell us about the shooting, the limo. We had all sorts of different ways to shoot, right?

[Pam Freiman]

We had. We had many. We had the front, we had the back. Everything was on wheels. We have rolling.

[Craig Thomas]

It was a chopped up car. And there was. Is that what you're saying?

[Pam Freiman]

Yes, it was the. Don't worry, it's a simple episode next week limo.

[Craig Thomas]

Like I said, we were young and stupid. The young and stupidness is a big theme of this episode of the podcast.

[Pam Freiman]

Turned out to be one of the all time great episodes. So thank you.

[Josh Radner]

You know what else? It strikes me for both of you about this episode, I often find that certain episodes themselves can be treacle cutters. Like after. Drumroll, please. You have zip, zip, zip. Which is a much more, much lighter kind of episode. It's kind of a palate cleans from the more serious stuff. After nothing good happens after 2am you have this episode which is just more like hard comedy. Like this is just like a really funny episode that, that has its tear jerking moments or heart tugging moments. Like, you know, I was really Ted's face. I know it was my face, but Ted's face after he realizes Robin's going to thank everyone but him. Really, it's a, it's, it's tough. It's sad.

[Craig Thomas]

You know, it's really sad. That moment. I forgot how sad that moment was.

[Josh Radner]

But it's great.

[Craig Thomas]

You needed it. It's what gives the show gravity. Right? Those moments, Pam, those are the moments. Right? You have to hold on. You can't rush through those.

[Pam Freiman]

And we didn't have to. Those are the moments.

[Josh Radner]

And those are the moments. I think that you and sue and Carter and Craig, I'm noticing it more now. There's a lot of cut to a reaction of a person, you know, Kobi and me or Ted and Robin, like really having a mask up. Kobe in particular, I think is just such a brilliant actor of like playing one thing but feeling another thing. Like she has a really great ability to like have her social mask up but let the audience know that there's like something's roiling underneath. And you guys really honored and preserved those moments in the edit.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah. Sue was really good at that too. Sue loved you all, just like Pam loved you all. Like everybody felt like so attuned to your guys performances, even in a cutaway, even in a no dialogue cutaway. And I think that was a huge part of the success of the show. And Pamela, you made it all happen.

[Josh Radner]

I'm glad sue would come down to the set and spend some time with us because she would tell me like, I have such an intimate relationship with you guys, but I don't. You don't know me that well. Like I'm not, I'm. I'm locked in a room with you guys all day long.

[Craig Thomas]

I watch you late at night.

[Alec Lev]

I know how she feels.

[Pam Freiman]

It's sure. What a pleasure, guys.

[Craig Thomas]

We love you. Thank you for being here. I love the show because of you. And it can't be overstated how you being the 99.9% director of the show, made it what it was. Thank you so much for being with us today day and always.

[Pam Freiman]

Thank you. Thanks for, thanks for making it.

[Josh Radner]

Pam Freyman, we love you. Well, that was just delightful. What a, what a treat to have Pam Freman in any part of your day.

[Craig Thomas]

Any day is better when Pam is a part of that day, even a small part of the day, it's just brighter, Brighter day.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. Well, thanks, Pam. We love you. Please come back soon. And for the last section of the show, we like to close out with a letter, a written letter. We often open the show with a voice note and we close with a written letter. If you would like to contribute either, please go to how we made your mother dot com. You can also go to Hy no H wm y M H W M y M. That's it. Dot com. That's it. And go to Contact and just follow the links. It should be pretty cool. Clear if you want to submit something. We love to hear from you. We love to hear what the show has meant to you and why you're still watching it after all these years. If you're showing your kids, like all the stuff, we love it all. So I just got back from Ecuador. I was in Ecuador for a couple days for a Comic Con down there that was totally delightful. I just loved being down in Guayaquil, is that. I think that's where I was. But the people were so wonderful and the enthusiasm for the show and, you know, know wonderfully for me for other stuff I've made. But it was, it was really wonderful to connect with so many How I Met yout Mother fans. And I, I, I think Craig, this, doing this show has, you know, when Pam said, I'm a fan too, like, it's really helping me become a fan of the show. I mean, I was a fan while we were making it, but it was so. It's so hard when you're so up close to it that I, I'm just finding the distance from it in the years have really softened my ability to look at it with, like, fresh and loving eyes and also really appreciate when people, I mean, I can't tell you the amount of people who said, this changed my life. This show taught me everything about love and, you know, kind of like the opening testimonial we got. I just, I'm so perpetually moved. And it does sound like people are saying maybe the same thing. It's not, if you listen. There's a lot of different varieties of this theme, but the theme holds true. This show met me at the right moment. This, you know, a woman told me after a suicide attempt, this was the show that pulled her out of her, her depression. You know, like, you don't realize that you're, when you're making a comedy that has some heart to it, that feels honest, that also has some big laughs. Some people you want to spend time with, it's life affirming in the deepest way. And people want to return to it. They want to spend time. It makes you feel like this, this Earth place is hard, but it's an okay place.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And it sounds like a prepackaged idea. That idea of, oh, it belongs to the fans now. I really understand how profound that is at this point. I've heard Mark Hamill talk about. In interviews about Star Wars. He's like, this is. I'm just honored to talk about this thing with the people it belongs to now. And it's like, that's how much mother is now. And what an honor that it. And it belongs to everyone in a different way. It meets them in some different way. And I'm really understanding that because of this podcast. I think at an deeper level, if.

[Josh Radner]

Someone comes up to us and see says, I've watched the show 20 times front to back, they. There can be no question. They know the show better than we know it. They know it. Yeah. Remember when. When I said, oh, why'd they cut that line? Nerds who suck at math. Life's going to be rough, boys. I thought it was outside the club and all these people were like, that's from Best prom ever. You know, like, they know immediately that's best prom ever.

[Craig Thomas]

I know. I didn't cast that at her either.

[Josh Radner]

I know.

[Craig Thomas]

I've been corrected on that since, too.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, I remember. I think I mentioned this, but when Selena Gomez posted just a. You know how I met your mother? On her laptop, just the five of us sitting around talking at the bar. And I wrote, in what episode is this? Because I was curious. And all these people wrote back. They knew. How did they know? Our shirt, our clothes, our clothes that we were wearing. Like, that's how they knew. Because there's no. There was just beers on the table. There was nothing signifying it there. I mean, just bananas.

[Craig Thomas]

I. I just love it. Him and the fans are the best and the smartest and the coolest.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. So I met a. I met a ton of them in. In Ecuador. I had such a lovely time. And someone hand handed me this note. And I only read it later. Either later that night or the next day.

[Craig Thomas]

Okay, I've not heard it. Lay it on us.

[Josh Radner]

This is someone who wrote me in Ecuador and, and hand delivered me this note. And this is what they said. Hi, Josh. You don't know me, but I wanted to write this letter from the bottom of my heart.

[Pam Freiman]

Heart.

[Josh Radner]

I'm a content creator from Ecuador. Not just a fan of yours, but someone who truly admires the beautiful person you are and how your character, Ted Mosby, has deeply influenced my life. I have dreamed of meeting you for a long time, mostly because of someone very special to me. His name was Alejandro. He was a mechatronics engineer who worked at Unilever. And earlier this year, in January, he tragically passed away in the ocean, caught in a whirlpool. Alejandro wasn't just a of friend friend. He was someone I loved. First as a teenage partner when I was 15, and later as a truly close friend. One of the strongest bonds we shared was how I met your mother. He introduced me to the show, and for years we'd talk about it, especially about Ted. We saw ourselves in him. Always torn between wanting to be with someone, learning to be alone, and holding onto the hope of a beautiful love. We often talked about how Ted's journey mirrored so much of what we were learning in life. Emotional growth, letting go, timing, heartbreak, and still believing in love no matter what. Thank you for giving life to a character who wasn't perfect, but who grew, who let go, who learned, who hoped. Thank you for showing that love is not always linear, but always worth it, that friends can heal you, that change is constant, and that trusting love is always a brave thing to do. I admire you deeply, Josh. Not just as an actor, but as a human being being. Thank you for being here and thank you for coming to Ecuador. It's a beautiful country, full of warmth and magic. I truly hope you get to experience more of it. This letter is part of my way of honoring Alejandro. I know wherever he is, he's probably jumping with joy knowing I got to do this, to meet you. A dream we shared. I hope this letter brings you even a fraction of what your work has meant to me. With love and admiration. Millie Mearschon.

[Craig Thomas]

My gosh, that's unbelievable. That's so beautiful. Thank you for that letter. My God, love isn't always linear, but it's always worth it. It's incredibly well written letter in addition to just being so nice of them to share.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, quite beautiful. Like quite a soulful person. And yeah, just, you know, I hear from people like, we fell in love over this show or my friend and I, I went deeper in our friendship because of this show. And. And I, you know, I also, I. I really love. At the time, it was hard for me to play such a vulnerable, flawed character. I felt like I had to let people see these. You know, it was me and not me. Right. I had to let them see these parts of me that I was a little like or a little embarrassed about or a little like. No, these are parts of me. I, I don't reveal all that regularly, but then I was asked to do it in front of millions of people every week. And to, to, to now see 20 years later that it's the, that's the very thing that people latch onto and respond to and, and love so much. His, his imperfections. Right. You know, I think I've told, I've said this quote, but, like, when we, when we talk about our accomplishments, it breeds competition. When we talk about our vulnerability, it breeds community. So I think there's, there's just, you know, Ted is like, I think he's a classic character because he was so wrong so often. You know, he was so much like us. He was, he was, he was, he was drawing erroneous conclusions. He was thinking the paralegal was a prostitute. You know, he was just constantly stepping on rakes to reference the Simpsons we were talking about earlier. But he also, he, he, he believed in love. He believed in his friends. He ultimately ends up believing in himself. And it was an honor and an honor to have played a part in people's lives. It's just, I can't overstate that. I am guilty. Please acquit me. All sins are forgiven in New York City.

[Alec Lev]

How We Made youe Mother is hosted at and executive produced by Josh Radner and Craig Thomas. The show was produced by me, Alec Lev, and our co producer is Doug Matica. Our audio producer and mixer is Alex Reeves at Point of Blue Studios, and our digital content producer, AKA Gen Z Master is Emily Blumberg. Artwork by John Morrow. Please follow, rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or your podcast player of choice. It really does help the show. Our theme song is NYC by our own Josh Radner, with additional music by Craig Thomas and Andrew Majewski. Special thanks to Lola Kennedy and Elliot Connors. Visit how we madeyourmother.com to sign up for our substack mailing list and for links to our social media. You can also click on the contact page to send us an email or a voice message. Your stories and questions are an important part of the show.

[Josh Radner]

Want some merch?

[Alec Lev]

Click on the store link or go to howyougetyourmerch.com subscribe to Josh Radner's Muse Letters on Substack. Order Craig Thomas debut [e-mail] novel and you can subscribe to My Dead Fathers Society. Also on substack to learn about how you make a difference, this show's ongoing campaign to raise money for congenital heart disease research. Check out the Make a Difference tab at the top of our website. This episode was made possible by the support of Backyard Ventures. People will, in fact dance the real.

[Josh Radner]

Question it just hit me. Am I in love with you or just New York City Life is a workout and Smoothie King is here to help you power through. Whether you're grinding out bicep curls or muscling the couch across the living room, crushing morning miles, or sprinting through back to back meetings, Smoothie King has fuel to help you maximize your workouts, own your recovery and elevate your game. Give your body the energy, protein and power it needs with a lineup of delicious, delicious smoothies made to help you conquer your goals. Only at Smoothie King, this is the story of the one he's responsible for keeping a leading healthcare facility clean and safe and he trusts Grainger's high quality H vac cleaning and safety products combined with their world class supply chain to consistently deliver, ensuring he's covered inside and out so he can focus on keeping his facility clean to help protect the health of everyone inside. Call 1-800-granger clickranger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.