How They Got it Made [with Carter Bays, Series Co-Creator]

Summary

How We Made Your Mother - Episode: How They Got It Made [with Carter Bays, Series Co-Creator]

Release Date: March 17, 2025

---

Introduction

In the second episode of "How We Made Your Mother," hosts Josh Radner and Craig Thomas delve into the genesis of the beloved sitcom "How I Met Your Mother" (HIMYM). Joined by special guest Carter Bays, co-creator of the series, the trio explores the intricate process behind pitching, casting, and establishing the show's unique narrative structure that has resonated with audiences worldwide.

---

The Pitching Process and Selecting the Title

Early in the conversation, Carter Bays recounts the brainstorming sessions that led to the creation of HIMYM. When discussing the initial pitches presented to their agent, Matt Rice, Carter shares:

"We were just throwing out ideas and throwing out titles and areas... There was like one of them was like a David Spade vehicle, like Chasing David Spade."
[02:52] Carter Bays

Despite numerous concepts, it was the title "How I Met Your Mother" that immediately resonated with Matt Rice, who urged them to pursue it:

"Matt was like, 'Write what you know. Do that one. You don't know the worlds of these other things you're pitching. Write your world.'"
[03:37] Craig Thomas

This pivotal decision anchored the show's personal and nostalgic essence, reflecting the creators' longing for their New York roots.

---

Navigating Network Decisions and CBS's Role

Carter and Craig detail the challenges of pitching a fresh concept in a landscape dominated by traditional family sitcoms. CBS's desire for a younger demographic coincided perfectly with HIMYM's innovative approach:

"CBS was looking for a younger show... It was such a hauntingly good timing."
[07:49] Carter Bays

They highlight the importance of timing and network readiness, emphasizing that without CBS's support, HIMYM might never have found its footing.

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Crafting the Narrative Structure

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the show's non-linear storytelling and its enduring appeal. Carter Bays explains how HIMYM was designed as a "novel on our shelf," aiming for a cohesive season arc rather than standalone episodes:

"Our goal when making the show was... to have the spine that says how I Met Your Mother, even if it gets canceled."
[15:22] Carter Bays

Josh Radner adds insight into how this structure deepened audience engagement:

"It rewards your patience and fidelity to it... the fandom grew because they felt like they were growing alongside the characters."
[17:46] Josh Radner

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Casting Josh Radner as Ted Mosby

One of the episode's highlights is the recounting of Josh Radner's audition process. Josh shares his confidence in embodying Ted Mosby:

"I knew how to play this guy. I understood the rhythm, when to get sincere, when to undercut sincerity with a joke."
[29:17] Josh Radner

Carter Bays elaborates on the casting directors' immediate connection with Josh:

"Rob Freyman... she connected to it. She wanted to direct it because it melted her heart."
[25:09] Craig Thomas

This mutual understanding ensured that Josh was the perfect fit, solidifying the show's heartfelt foundation.

---

Overcoming Casting Challenges

The trio discusses the intense casting process, including the scramble to secure the right talent once the pilot was greenlit. Craig Thomas reflects on the initial uncertainty:

"We were just completely in over our heads... had to hire casting directors right away."
[23:23] Craig Thomas

Despite the pressures, their perseverance paid off, leading to the assembly of a dynamic and beloved cast.

---

Impact and Legacy of HIMYM

Towards the episode's conclusion, hosts share touching listener messages that underscore the show's profound impact. One standout story involves Damien Echols of the West Memphis Three:

"He said, 'It was fake enough that it took me away from where I was, but it was real enough that it promised a world that I was hoping I could rejoin one day.'"
[52:55] Josh Radner

These testimonials highlight how HIMYM serves as "medicine for the soul," offering solace and inspiration to fans navigating their own challenges.

---

Conclusion

"How They Got It Made" provides an intimate glimpse into the creative journey of HIMYM, celebrating its enduring legacy and the heartfelt connections it fostered. Through candid anecdotes and heartfelt reflections, Josh Radner, Craig Thomas, and Carter Bays illustrate why "How I Met Your Mother" remains a cherished cornerstone of modern sitcoms.

---

Notable Fan Messages

• Amanda from New York City:

  "This show saved me from a really hard time in my life and taught me it was okay to never give up."
  [58:05] Josh Radner

• Daniel from Peru:

  "My obsession has been so great that my husband and I agreed that we would only watch it once a year."
  [57:42] Craig Thomas

These messages, among others, reflect the profound and diverse ways HIMYM has touched lives across the globe.

---

Final Thoughts

Craig Thomas concludes with a sentiment that encapsulates the show's essence:

"It makes me feel like we baked something in there that's lasting."
[61:51] Craig Thomas

Josh Radner echoes this, emphasizing the show's blend of fantasy and reality:

"How I Met Your Mother was still... attempting to gesture at something very true about being alive."
[62:28] Josh Radner

---

"How We Made Your Mother" continues to unravel the layers of HIMYM, offering fans and newcomers alike a comprehensive understanding of its creation, influence, and timeless charm.

Transcript

[Josh Radner]

Hi, I'm Erin from Orlando.

[Stacy]

Hi, I'm Stacy from Albuquerque, New Mexico. Hi, I'm Mimi. I'm in Los Angeles, but for college I was in the uk.

[Josh Radner]

What How I Met yout Mother means.

[Craig Thomas]

To me is that grief is temporary.

[Carter Bays]

It means for me that happiness and.

[Craig Thomas]

Humor are both found in the midst of great tragedy.

[Stacy]

I saw as things happening in my life happened on screen in real time, sometimes even on the same day, which was a little weird, but good job.

[Craig Thomas]

The writers and the cast allowed those characters to feel all of those heartbreaks.

[Carter Bays]

Without the need for an additional laugh.

[Stacy]

But unfortunately, the episodes didn't air on UK TV at the same time that they aired on US tv. So, yes, I was pirating these episodes like ripped streaming video link that frequently was reversed. So sometimes in my mind, the entrance to the apartment is on the other side of the screen. I was reminded that things don't always go as planned, but they happen the way they're supposed to. And there's always going to be people around to make sure you're okay.

[Josh Radner]

I'm alone. What a pity I won't be soon in New York City when I see you. Please permit me to tell you everything in New York City. Hello and welcome to another episode of How We Made youe Mother. I am Josh Radner. I am here with Craig Thomas.

[Craig Thomas]

Hello, everybody.

[Josh Radner]

Hello, Craig. Also, Alec Lev, our producer and Savior, and Mr. Fix It All. And it's only our second episode, but we already on a very special episode of How We Made your Mother. It's very special because we have Carter Bay with us.

[Mimi]

Oh, no.

[Carter Bays]

Hi, guys. How are you?

[Josh Radner]

We're really good. Carter Bay. Well, tell us why you're here, Carter. What. What hand did you have in. In the How I Met yout Mother verse?

[Carter Bays]

I'm pretty. I was there for. For a good deal of it.

[Josh Radner]

I did a lot of props. I remember props.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah. I was Carter and Craig. I'm the Carter of Carter and Craig. That was my job.

[Josh Radner]

Carter and Craig.

[Craig Thomas]

I wish I'd pretended I didn't know Carter was the guest so we could have done the smartless thing.

[Carter Bays]

Just, oh, my God, it's Carter.

[Josh Radner]

So welcome, Carter. We're so happy you're here.

[Carter Bays]

It's good to be here.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. So I love this story. This is kind of a iconic origin story for me that you guys have told me, but I want you to tell our audience. So, Matt, you brought him three ideas? Five ideas. How many ideas did you bring, Matt?

[Mimi]

Editor's note. Josh is talking about Matt Rice, who is Craig and Carter's TV agent.

[Josh Radner]

How many ideas did you bring, Matt?

[Craig Thomas]

Probably a lot. Probably more. Probably 10. We were just throwing out ideas and throwing out titles and areas and we.

[Josh Radner]

Said, were they kind of like one line pitches or just like very bare.

[Craig Thomas]

Kind of like log lines for like areas of what it could be. There was like one of them was like a David Spade vehicle, like Chasing David Spade.

[Carter Bays]

I remember a document. I think there was like four things. Like we had a. Was it Kings Road Cafe or was it toast? It was one of these two places.

[Craig Thomas]

Kings Road Cafe, I think.

[Carter Bays]

Was it?

[Craig Thomas]

No, no, it might have been toast.

[Carter Bays]

Was it toast? I always get it wrong. But we had a meeting with Matt over breakfast and we were like to present our four ideas. And I think the first one we read was How I Met yout Mother. And he was like, that's it, that's the one. You can read me the other ones, but that's the one. And to his.

[Josh Radner]

And how did you pitch it to him? Do you remember what the kind of like log line of it was?

[Craig Thomas]

I think he liked the sort of storytelling perspective built into the title. And then when we started talking about how personal it would be to us, that it would be sort of like the couple. That's a little bit like me and my wife and the single guy. That's a little bit like Carter at the time. I think he was just like, that's where your heart is. Your heart is. You know how to write that. But his reaction was more like visceral and immediate. It was almost a little more magical than that. The more we talked about it, the more it was like, that also is. Write what you know. Do that one. You don't know the worlds of these other things you're pitching. Write your world. And we moved from New York. We missed New York. That was part of the flavor of the show. Our nostalgia for having left what was our home for a bunch of years. And he's like, you can do that. That's gonna bring out the heart. So right. Carter, he was huge.

[Carter Bays]

And to his credit, I mean he's a softie and he's got a real emotional core that Matt Rice and he. I think, you know, he's kind of our age, he's a little bit older, but like, I think he wanted to see what we could do just writing about. Cause Oliver Bean was about a 12 year old kid living in the 1960s. And then we were writing American Dad. We were writing all these shows that were like sort of not. Not our world. We worked on the Method in Red sitcom. So, I mean, Method man is not. We aren't the natural choices to have the voice of Method Man. But, yeah, I think he just saw that it was like, oh, this is going to be Craig and Carter really writing their own lives and talking about stuff that's going on with them. And that's exciting. There was a vulnerability to it that I think was. That appealed to us too. I think. And to Matt's credit also, the second thing we pitched was a show that we had no business writing that we ended up selling to Fox. And I think Matt always knew. He was like, you can sell this one, but how about your mother's gonna be the one that ends up going? And lo and behold, thank God.

[Craig Thomas]

Boy, do you realize that when you sit down and write them, you sit down to write one and you have a bajillion ideas, and the other one, you're like, I don't know how to get to page 10 on this one. There's not gonna be nine seasons of this.

[Josh Radner]

So did you have to. I mean, I know you're getting paid by Twent Fox in kind of like a holding deal. You can't write for anyone else, but did he just say, go write this pilot. Go write How I Met yout Mother.

[Craig Thomas]

We pitched it verbally. We didn't write it. We pitched. We pitched both verbally. And you go around town, you go to abc at the time, there was no streamers. Again, old C. Aforementioned. Incredibly old people. And you go. You drive around in person. No zoom meetings. You drive to NBC, you drive to Fox, you drive to cbs, and you pitch them these ideas. And we did. We did the rounds for both of those ideas. So we pitched all the same people, both of those ideas. One of them we sold to Fox, which was like the parent company of our deal. They were in the vertical integration of the deal. They didn't get how much they didn't want How I Met yout Mother, though. We pitched it. How I Met yout Mother got a bunch of passes. We didn't. We didn't, you know, landed at cbs. We thought it was gonna land at NBC, but that didn't work out. And CBS really wanted it. They really. It was just the moment that they were looking for a younger show.

[Carter Bays]

I don't know if people. I mean, I guess maybe CBS is still like this. But, like, at the time especially, it was like such a. It was family sitcoms. It was King Queens, Everybody Loves Raymond. It was so not shows.

[Josh Radner]

It had the oldest demo Right. Like, it didn't have the oldest audience of the major networks.

[Carter Bays]

Like, Letterman used to do jokes all the time about like the old people watching. You know, it's like Matlock and his show. And like, that's like, That's CBS and 60 Minutes, you know.

[Josh Radner]

You know, so when you pitch the show and CBS buys it. Did you have the names Ted, Marshall, Lily, Barney, Robin? Were those characters? They were fully formed at that point.

[Craig Thomas]

We went in with like a fully formed pitch sheet. Yeah. And we had each character and like, you write up a little description of each character, maybe eight or ten episode ideas just in the shape of how the storytelling work. You pitch them sort of like 15 or 20 minutes of like through this pitch document. You kind of give them a flavor of what it will be. And by far the best response in the room was cbs. These wonderful women of CBS who got the emotion and the heart. Wendy Trilling, Julien, Wendy Trilling, Julie Pernworth, Edie Mendoza. And they got what this was. And they had just been in a meeting with their higher ups there where they all the directive was, we want a younger skewing. Basically we want Friends, which we did not want to aid. Come and just give them a Friends clone. But it definitely helped us that CBS wanted a Friend.

[Carter Bays]

I believe it was like hauntingly good timing. It was like that morning they had had a meeting and it was like. I think the way I heard it phrased was we're getting in the under 35 game was how they said it. Like, we need to go you development department. Go find us a show for people under 35 guys.

[Craig Thomas]

We want to get the under 100 years old demo. We have the rest of it.

[Josh Radner]

You guys were ready with the work. And then that was a stroke of luck and timing. That was.

[Craig Thomas]

It's a good for you guys.

[Carter Bays]

We had to be in the place that really wanted us. And like, if we had ended up at NBC, they had three other how about yout Mothers? Loaded in the chamber. Like, we might have gotten Skeleton. Who knows? Like, it.

[Craig Thomas]

Friends had just finished.

[Carter Bays]

Friends had just finished. And I think that's fine. We would have been.

[Craig Thomas]

So as much as we dreaded those comparisons to Friends, imagine if we had been like the year Friends ended, like, and here's this other one. It somehow wouldn't have worked. But we in the moment, we should say we did not expect to be at cbs. And we were worried, the show's too young, it's not gonna work there. And look, it went nine seasons and people believed in it. That worked. There and supported it. So it was an amazing bit of.

[Josh Radner]

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[Craig Thomas]

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[Josh Radner]

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[Craig Thomas]

I think it might be, you might have missed the window maybe. And I, Alec, I made our producer Alec Lev. He's, he's got a wonderful, beautiful, smooth smile. Smile. And I think that. Yeah, I don't know, I don't know if this would work on him at this point. The statute of limitations might be. Should we, we can try it. Should we experiment? Give it a go. Alec, you on board?

[Josh Radner]

Alec, tell us.

[Craig Thomas]

He's just staring at us.

[Josh Radner]

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[Mimi]

I, I go, I was doing, I was, I was making a movie. I was, I was a big movie star. I was making a movie and they were shaving.

[Josh Radner]

Not the important part.

[Craig Thomas]

Go on now.

[Mimi]

And, and afterwards he, the gentleman shaved my head and he said, you know, he said, he said, hair is not for you, puppy. He thought I look good. He said, hair is not for you, puppy.

[Josh Radner]

And you do. You look fantastic.

[Craig Thomas]

Good.

[Josh Radner]

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[Craig Thomas]

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[Mimi]

I have all of those.

[Craig Thomas]

Okay. You have problems with all. Okay.

[Josh Radner]

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[Carter Bays]

Yes.

[Craig Thomas]

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[Josh Radner]

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[Craig Thomas]

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[Alec Lev]

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[Josh Radner]

And now back to the show. When you guys pitched it to all those places around town, did you have the 40 to 60 scene narrative structure or was that something you discovered while you were writing?

[Carter Bays]

I think we had. And that's how I met your Aunt Robin. And I know we had that. I don't know if we had like, the. The, like every scene beaten out for sure, but we definitely. I don't think we had like a. A season arc of any kind, which. Which I think nowadays you like. In hindsight, you know, this. This wasn't a place that wanted a season arc. Again. This is. This is. This is CBS in 2005. Like. Like, what's the season arc on King of Queens? Like, there is no arc. It's the same show 22 times in a row.

[Craig Thomas]

You never even found out in the end who the king was. I don't know if they even answered that.

[Mimi]

Yeah, actually, that's worth also pointing out to our listeners who are using magical devices to listen to all this. Like, the notion that it's a big deal that How I Met yout Mother really needs to be seen from beginning to end. You could pop in if you wanted to. But nowadays on Netflix, of course you're doing that. You're just watching eight straight in a row. But can you just talk a little bit about that style of sitcom at the time that. This was very different.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah. It's funny, I'm having a fight with my, with my daughter right now about this very thing because now it's advanced to like she's somehow got her hands on the TikTok. We've like, we've like, you know, we thought we barred up all the, all the windows, but TikTok found its way into the cellar or something and like she's watching like, like cut downs of scenes on TikTok and like finding out twists in the series. And I'm like, no, we were supposed.

[Josh Radner]

To sit down and watch this together.

[Carter Bays]

Just like the Ted and the kids. There's going to be a whole thing. And, and, but, but yeah, anyway.

[Josh Radner]

At.

[Carter Bays]

The time we were. Craig and I. I think our favorite show on TV at that time was Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which we had both devoured on like, it was, it was right at the dawn of like the DVD box set, like the season box set. And we loved these CVD because, because they told individual stories, like each episode. It's the one where this happened, the one where that happened. But they're beautifully laid out in this season long arc that has this big satisfying conclusion at the end of the season. And I remember thinking our goal when it's like we're gonna make a show was like, if this show makes it a full season, we're not even gonna hope for more than one season. But just to have to make something that there's a DVD box set of.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh yeah.

[Carter Bays]

I think that was the goal. I feel like it was nothing new. It was like I wanted to go back.

[Craig Thomas]

We said it would be like a novel on our shelf. Right.

[Carter Bays]

Carter.

[Craig Thomas]

We're like, I want that little thing. I want the spine that says how much I'm under Season one. Even if it gets canceled, we always have that one little novel size thing of a technology that's going to disappear in five years is what it was.

[Carter Bays]

Like right before or right around the time the whole I think of my show as a novel became a cliche. But it was like right before it became a cliche. It weren't quite cliche.

[Craig Thomas]

We were the first ones to say that bullshit line.

[Carter Bays]

But it was like, yeah, I mean, that was. And cbs, when we pitched it, didn't say what happens in episode two, what happens in episode five, which should have Clued us in because, you know, we, you know, we wanted to tell, you know, we felt like this is the first chapter of a saga. Like this is we're going to tell a story and it, I mean, and maybe this is a discussion for down the road. But it became. There was some. There were some big disagreements about like what kind of show we were making. Because they wanted a show that anyone who hasn't seen the show can just jump right in on, you know, on any given Monday in February and just drop right in and be like, okay, I got it. I see what's going on and I can watch this. Whereas Craig and I, we had our eyes on, you know, the season box set. We had our eyes on, like we're making something that people will sit down and devote a whole afternoon when they're sick in bed to. Just like watching season one of How I Met yout Mother.

[Craig Thomas]

But at the beginning we really looked 15 years old. We'd never run a TV show. We were writing these weird 70 scene scripts in 21 minutes. And they took a second for them to kind of understand, can this fit into the Monday night lineup of it?

[Josh Radner]

It really strikes that it's so hard to create something new in Hollywood in that structure that moves so glacially, you know, Like, I think what was so smart about the way you guys conceived of this show is like five friends hanging out had been done and seen before. But you have this other thing of like framed as a flashback, the non linear structure, this kind of wildly inventive news storytelling. I used to tell people, they would say, what's the show like that you're doing? And I'd say, it's like if Pulp Fiction was a sitcom, you know, there was something about the way it was a puzzle. Right. And sometimes there were episodes that were very puzzle, like of How I Met your Mother, where just like Ted Mosby, architect, is like a very strange mystery. Right. Until you get what's happening at the end.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

And it rewards your patience and fidelity to it. Which is why I think one, it scared probably the network. But two, I think that's what created some of the fervor and excitement and loyalty to the show among the hardcore fans was they got invested in a different way because they felt like they were growing alongside or with the characters.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I think the audience felt respected and the audience felt like they were sort of our accomplices in this little weird kind of mystery crime we were trying to pull off. And they felt invested. And it's funny how a lot of the best episodes of How I'm yous Mother are mini mysteries within this larger mystery. That's another thing that I always kind of love about what works on that show. On our show.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah, like, being able to use that device for puzzle building was always fun. Like episodes like Three Days of Snow. I don't know if you remember that one, but like. Or the Burning Beekeeper. Things that really like Pulp Fiction was absolutely. I mean, I don't think anyone our age who was into movies wasn't. Didn't catch some flak from that. Like just like. Just the creative energy just vibrating off of it. Like, I feel like it seeped its way.

[Josh Radner]

I remember when I read episode two after the show had been picked up, I was so delighted that the DNA of what I loved about the pilot was just even more there. In the second episode, I was like, oh, it's just going to keep moving like this. And I was delighted by it. So I do want to ask you guys. CBS says yes. They're not going to make the pilot. They order a script. Is that right?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, they order a script. You write the pilot script and submit some episode ideas for future episodes, which we already kind of had and probably mentioned in the pitch. But then you more formally do that along with a script. You spend the whole fall of surprises. Fall of 2004, we're writing on American and Dad. And then at night on the weekend.

[Josh Radner]

Writing your mistress was how I met your love.

[Craig Thomas]

Hot, torrid affair with how much a mother. And a less torrid affair with the other failed pilot. We weren't that into writing and far less torrid. And we sort of did that through the fall of 2004. Right, Carter? And you submit drafts and you get feedback. And we thought they liked it, but they buy. What do they buy? 30 scripts. 30 pilot scripts and they make 10 of them? Something like that, probably. I'm getting the numbers wrong. We didn't think we'd ever even be one of those 10. Maybe they buy 50 scripts and make 10. And then we were one of those 10. By this time, the late winter, spring was rolling around. They say you're going to be one of the 10 we shoot.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah, it was back in, I'll say, the good old days of when networks all development was on the same schedule. Every writer in Hollywood who has a TV show they want to make pitches it in the summer and early fall. And every. And the ones that sell them, everyone is writing their script and hand it in. You hand it in right before winter break. So, like, you Go home to wherever you're going home to and just spend.

[Josh Radner]

The actors waiting for January, February and March, April, which is the season where they're casting them.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah, like, January is when the phone rings and it's, okay, we're making it. Like, they take those 30 scripts that they bought and they say, we're gonna make eight of them, and these eight pilots are gonna get shot. And I'll tell this story. Craig, I don't know if you remember this. Like, Craig and I were at, I think it was the premiere of American Dad. There was a premiere party for American dad in Las Vegas. And Craig and I were in Las Vegas and had a really fun night out. Or it might have been. Maybe it was before the party.

[Craig Thomas]

Very pineapple incident. Very pineapple incident, which then became the Hangover.

[Carter Bays]

I think it was before the party because before the party, the phone rang and it was Matt Rice or maybe David Miner. And it like, let's get both of them on the phone. So we knew, like, okay, they want both of us on the phone. This is going to be something. And they said it was the head of development saying, good news, we loved your script. We want to make it. We want to make a pilot. So you're making a pilot. And we hang up. We're like, yeah, we did it. We go downstairs, we celebrate. We tell all our friends at American Dad. They're like, oh, that's great. You're making a pilot. And we have a great night and then wake up at one in the afternoon, you know, and just kind of connect. And I don't remember exactly how this story unfolded, but basically, like, Craig and I are just like, oh, I'm making a pilot. This is good. This is good. Relax. And, like, we get a call from somebody. I don't know, maybe it was Matt Rice. It might have been somebody. But it was basically like, so when is your. How many casting director meetings have you had so far? We're like, what do you mean? He's like, you haven't. Well, you have some booked, right? You have some casting director. Because what you don't know is that when it's pilot season and your pilot gets picked up, it becomes this mad scramble supermarket sweep for the best talent. And you have to rush out there and find. You have to book your casting director right away. You have to book your director right away. Otherwise they'll get snatched up and you won't get them. And so that became the story of January and February. Was usually scrambling to cobble together this ragtag crew who would Be willing to take a chance on duding dongs who.

[Josh Radner]

Expect the moment you got the green light for your pilot that you would just immediately start calling casting directors.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah, these guys are professionals, so they clearly know. I feel like that call may have come from cbs actually. I think maybe cbs.

[Craig Thomas]

And we got kind of yelled at. They're like, what the fuck are you doing in Vegas? Get a casting director. What's happening? Right off the bat, we were just completely in over our head. Didn't know how to. Because you make this immediate leap from writer in a room just coming up with ideas to CEO of a corporation that is being given seven figures to make a pilot.

[Carter Bays]

I mean, this was like just the mothership descending. Like, look, it's literally the mothership. Like, it was like nothing like anything that had been on.

[Josh Radner]

It's an alt CT title for the podcast. That's good.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I just wrote that down.

[Carter Bays]

Interesting.

[Craig Thomas]

There you go.

[Carter Bays]

The mothership Descent.

[Craig Thomas]

And you have to suddenly put on this boss hat that you have never worn before. Really. And that was the code. That was the very hung wake up call. Get on the ball, guys. Go get a kite, get back to Los Angeles, meet six casting directors. Hire the one you're lucky enough that doesn't get hired by the time they're walking to their car after meeting with you because they just met four other people that morning and they're going to choose. If I'm a casting director, I'm going to choose anyone but us. Carter. Because we looked 12 years old, we didn't know what we're doing. We were hungover from Vegas. God knows what the casting directors were thinking of us. We have backpacks on.

[Carter Bays]

I think that's true. But I also, just to give us some credit, I feel like we wrote a really good pilot. The further I get from it and the more pilots I've tried to write in my life and you realize there was something special to it. And it also, the great thing about it was it was this self sorting thing where there were certainly a lot of people that had that reaction and said no and were like, no, thanks. But that left more room for the people who got it. The people like Pam Freyman found people.

[Craig Thomas]

It took on a magical. This is very woo woo. But it really did feel like it found people, including Mr. Josh Radner. And my God, it became magic the way it found the right people.

[Josh Radner]

Well, it also, it also feels like something that everyone loves is probably not that special. Like a special thing is going to mystify certain people.

[Craig Thomas]

Right.

[Josh Radner]

You know yeah, And I think that was. And I always think a project itself acts as a kind of glowing orb. It attracts the right people. And I do feel like how I met your mother had a kind of frequency that brought people into its orbit who belong there, namely, who actually is just a huge hero of the show, who we all adore. But how did Pam Freyman, our beloved director, get. How did you find your way to her or her to you?

[Craig Thomas]

I mean, that's the perfect example. And that happened. She could have directed any pilot. She was a hot in demand director. Been directing on Two and a Half Men, which was like the number one comedy at the time, I think. And again, she was probably given 20 job offers that year. Right. Carter. She could have done anything. She just read this and connected to it. She said, I have to meet these guys. And she probably turned down other things to meet with us and come and basically said, this one got my heart. This got me. The rhythm of this was different. It melted my heart at the end. It genuinely surprised me in the end. It's storytelling structure and the way it jumps around. And she had not gotten to do, as, you know, play with that sort of rhythm before. And she just. She. She wanted to direct it. She. She basically said, I want to do this. And we didn't think we could get her. We did not think we could get her, but she kind of chose us, which was amazing.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. So let's. Okay, so you've got this pilot. It's greenlit by. Bought by 20th. It's greenlit by CBS. They want to make a pilot. You scramble for your casting director. You got the hottest multicam director in town in Pam Freeman, and then you have to find your cast.

[Carter Bays]

Yes, yes.

[Josh Radner]

Let's talk about that. What was that like?

[Craig Thomas]

That was where things.

[Carter Bays]

Things went wrong.

[Craig Thomas]

That's where we finally hit a brick.

[Josh Radner]

Wall, because I can. This is where I joined the story.

[Craig Thomas]

Josh, I want your version of that story because you were day one. Right. This just doesn't. This is another. Everything about this story of how much mother's creation. It never goes this way.

[Carter Bays]

Yes.

[Craig Thomas]

Including this part. Day one, the Tarantino version.

[Carter Bays]

We now cut to Josh's story.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, let's. Yeah, back it up.

[Josh Radner]

Josh's story.

[Craig Thomas]

Pov switch, Hemium style, whip pan flashback.

[Josh Radner]

So, yeah, I'll just say I got out of NYU Graduate Acting Program in 1999. I was doing a lot of theater. I was on Broadway. I had done three pilots or four pilots. I can't remember my first one. I got replaced on the Second one got canceled after six episodes. The third one never got picked up by NBC. A pilot I did with Rob Reiner. And. Yeah, so How I Met yout Mother, I think, was my fourth pilot. I had gotten in the place where I was really good at booking them kind of quickly. Like, I kind of cracked the algorithm a little bit. Like, I knew. And I also was very good at determining, like, okay, I'm good for this role. I'm kind of the right person for this role. And I remember how I met your mother being something that. And maybe this is in hindsight, but I remember reading it, and I just was like, I know how to play this guy. Like, I absolutely know how to play this guy. I know where the jokes are. I know what the rhythm is. I know when to get sincere. I know when to undercut the sincerity with a joke. Like, I just understood how you guys had written him, and I understood it in some sort of, like, cellular way. And I remember going over it with a friend because for the audition, and I read through it, like, twice, and I just knew it. I memorized it. And I have found as an actor, I've run this through with a lot of other actors. The better the writing, the easier to memorize because it psychologically makes sense. Like, your next right move is the next right line that you want. And when something's poorly written, it's almost like it has a hard time sticking to your ribs. Right? So I just knew that I knew how to play the guy. And the two scenes that I was supposed to audition with, it was Kobe in the bar or Robin at that time in the bar where she throws a drink in my face. Right?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Josh Radner]

And then after the date gone awry, where I have the monologue to her. I suck at being single, but I'd be a really good husband. Right?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Carter Bays]

The big speech.

[Josh Radner]

So I remember I woke up that morning. It was early mid January. It was one of my first pilot auditions of the season. It was raining. I remember that day. And I was bummed because I've always been like a. What's the opposite of a pathetic fallacy? Like, I look towards the weather to tell me what's going to go, what's going to happen? And I thought, no, this is supposed to be my good audition day. It can't be raining. But I got there. I walk in.

[Carter Bays]

And yet rain is an important part of the whole series.

[Craig Thomas]

That's true.

[Josh Radner]

That's true. I walk in. Megan Brandman, the cast director. You two Pam and Rob Greenberg, right. Who was Kind of. Was he. Was he assigned to you guys as, like, a wiser, steadier hand? Like. Like an older.

[Carter Bays]

Yes, that's a. He looks like there's another way.

[Josh Radner]

But he was a Frasier writer.

[Craig Thomas]

Like what a zookeeper is to chimps. That's what Rob was.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. So that was the room.

[Carter Bays]

A zookeeper who sometimes. Sometimes flings his own poop.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, Rob could fling some poop, but.

[Josh Radner]

Dylan was in the room. Right. Dylan was videotaping it. Megan, Brandon, cast record, you guys, Pam and Rob. I remember a little bit of chit chat about Ohio with Carter. Well, right.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I. I mean, can we. Can we now flat. Because I. I'll just to drop in, like.

[Josh Radner]

Oh, sure.

[Carter Bays]

For me writing. Okay, so now we're gonna. We're popping back and forth. Okay, go ahead.

[Craig Thomas]

Bury him.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah. For me personally, like, you know, Craig and I, we. You know, at the risk of like. Like, we. We never set out to make something that's, like, autobiographical. Like, we didn't name the characters Carter and Craig, but there was like, we. We. It was a big starting point of single guy, guy and guy who's just gotten engaged. That was a big starting point. And. And it was. We were especially coming from. It was in a time in comedy, like, coming from, you know, writing American dad when, like, there was a lot of snark and a lot of, like, a lot of. Not in a bad way, but, like, a lot of, like, like shocking comedy and comedy that's kind of mean and zingers and stuff like that. And the. The scary part of writing this was it's. It was very vulnerable, and it was very, like, honest, and it was very true. And it felt like, like, especially that. That speech that Ted gives. I remember feeling, like. Feeling like this was like a page out of my diary, and I felt like I was writing something that was kind of about my life at that time. I had been dating for a while. I had, like, had a bunch of, you know, romantic mishaps here and there, like anyone does. And I was at a point where I was like, I'm. I just. I'm ready for the. I'm ready for the big time, but I can't find the right person. And so all of that got poured into that speech. And it was the kind of thing that, like, I would think about my fellow writers at American dad reading this speech and thinking, like, oh, God, this is. But it was like, you know, but that's what makes it good. And that's why, you know, if it's scary. That's why you have to.

[Josh Radner]

I think Arthur Miller said, like, the best writing is the stuff that humiliates you as you're writing it.

[Carter Bays]

Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. 100%. And so that speech hearing. We had never heard that speech aloud.

[Craig Thomas]

And.

[Carter Bays]

Okay, so I'm gonna now give a little context to you walking in the room, which was. We got our casting director, Megan Brandman, and she said, first thing, first meeting. I've got Ted. I've got your Ted. I have no idea who Robin's gonna be. I've got some ideas for Barney. I've got some ideas for Marshall. Lily, I've got Ted. We're like, okay. And I'm thinking, like, oh, you found a guy from Ohio who went to a liberal arts school like Wesleyan, which Kenyon is very. I almost went to Kenyon. They're very, very comfortable. Like, I'm sure you really have Ted. And then. So the. But then, sure enough, first day of casting, first audition, like, it was the first.

[Craig Thomas]

Am I raining on this? Yeah, for day one audition, one raining outside in Los Angeles, Josh Radner walks through the door as if he's brought New York with him. I think the rain was perfect. You brought New York in the door. Yeah.

[Carter Bays]

And first time we had heard these scenes out loud read by actors, by, you know, by anyone other than us, you know, in the privacy of our little, like, writers studio, where wherever we were. So it was like. It was a big moment.

[Josh Radner]

And this old man, he must admit he fell in love with you. New York City.

[Craig Thomas]

And now commercials. Hey, Josh, I was wondering, do you have any. Any travel plans coming up?

[Josh Radner]

You know, it's.

[Carter Bays]

It's.

[Josh Radner]

It's funny you should ask Craig. I am taking my guitar on the road. I'm going on tour late April. I'm starting in Seattle. I'm going to Portland, zipping down the West Coast. I'm going to San Francisco, Sacramento, Los Angeles, San Diego, and then Phoenix to the Musical Instrument Museum, which is incredible museum, by the way.

[Craig Thomas]

Wow.

[Josh Radner]

Do you know about this? No.

[Craig Thomas]

That's the real thing.

[Josh Radner]

In Phoenix, they take you through a tour of world history, but only with musical instruments.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God.

[Josh Radner]

It's unbelievable. Elliot would freak out.

[Craig Thomas]

My son would. That would be.

[Josh Radner]

That would be to get him to the musical museum. But anyway, yeah, so I'm going on tour. I'm taking some songs on the road. I'm super excited.

[Craig Thomas]

That's really cool. Definitely. Everybody, two. Two thoughts here. Go see Josh play music. And maybe if you're in Phoenix, get to that museum. My second thought is the only. The only note I have on. On this for you, Josh, the only note I have in this entire concept is that while you're away, you could host your place on Airbnb to make a little extra cash.

[Josh Radner]

You know what?

[Carter Bays]

What?

[Josh Radner]

That's a great idea.

[Craig Thomas]

It's just gonna sit your house. Just gonna sit there empty, doing nothing. Instead, you could put it to work.

[Josh Radner]

It's just gonna sit there gathering dust.

[Craig Thomas]

Listen to this. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host.

[Josh Radner]

You don't wake up dreaming of McDonald's fries. You wake up dreaming of McDonald's hash browns.

[Carter Bays]

McDonald's breakfast comes first.

[Craig Thomas]

End of commercials, back to show.

[Carter Bays]

And then we cut to Josh walking in the door. Josh is pov.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. So I remember we talked about Ohio. I remember it just being like one of those auditions. And back then I was auditioning a lot. Like, I was not. I'd gotten pretty good at it. Like, I knew how to walk into a room. I knew how to do the minimal amount of chit chat. That was effective and not too much. But I do remember doing the first scene. It went great. The vibe in the room was terrific. I remember that felt really good. And I remember when I hit that speech, I could feel Pam and I think Megan, like, I could feel the part of the way. And I think I felt you guys, too, but I felt like, oh, this is where they wanted the speech to live. Like, this is what I think they wrote. And I gave them what they're looking for. And I don't remember if you guys had me do the scenes with any adjustments. I might have just read them once.

[Craig Thomas]

Do you remember what Megan said to you? What Megan said to you after you finished that speech?

[Josh Radner]

Oh, did she say, will you marry me?

[Craig Thomas]

She said, will you marry me?

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

That's what our casting director proposed. So that's a good for those young actors out there.

[Josh Radner]

Yes.

[Craig Thomas]

If you audition and you get proposed by the casting director, you're probably going to get that, right?

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. You call your agent afterwards, you say, well, I did this whole speech, and afterwards the casting director said, will you marry me? Do you think that's a good sign?

[Craig Thomas]

So we all wanted to marry you. We all felt that way. You melted our hearts.

[Josh Radner]

So I remember going back to my car, and so this is very inside baseball, and I don't even know if it's still this way, but you used to have to test for the studio and test for the network There were these two hoops if you got past the initial producer session, which is what I had with you guys. So I. Oh, also, this is maybe worth mentioning. My agent at the time, who I was with for about 14 years, she used to tell me, the only power you have as a young actor is the ability to say no. And I didn't have much power. I wasn't a known actor. I was known in the business. Casting directors knew me, A couple showrunners knew me. But I had gotten a reputation as being a little picky as a young actor. And I remember Megan had pitched.

[Craig Thomas]

We were told that by Megan.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, Megan.

[Craig Thomas]

We really were told that.

[Josh Radner]

I don't know if he'll come in. He's picky. So when you saw me on the list, you're like, oh, Josh Ratter's coming in.

[Craig Thomas]

So we felt accepted by you. We were like, he liked us. The picky guy liked us.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

We're so needy.

[Josh Radner]

So that was a real gift my agent gave me, was saying, like, be discerning, you know? So I would only throw my hat in the rings for stuff I really believed in, and I believed in your show. By the time I got back to the car, my agent called me and she said, well, that was quick. They want to do a test deal with you. They want to take you to the studio.

[Craig Thomas]

Your car was 10ft away.

[Josh Radner]

So then you guys also had a couple more days of seeing other Teds, right?

[Craig Thomas]

We had to keep seeing other Teds, even though we knew it's so shitty. I feel bad because we knew we had you. And then other people come in and nobody could be you. Great actors, great people came in, and you need to go into the studio with a few in the network to test, like, to go into a room with the executives and have you. And as it turned out, Koby do chemistry reads and see, we had to have that happen with a couple of other people. But we knew we were in love with you. All of us were. And that's harrowing because we could have had a different feeling than the network. The network could have been like, no, it's not him. And that would have been so heartbreaking. But everybody went after the other went. We get it. And that doesn't always happen either, kids. That does not always happen.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, well, I found in show business, and maybe it's like this in other areas of life, but if a job is not yours, the door won't open, and it just simply won't open. No matter how right you think you are. For It. How much you want it. If the job is yours, the doors keep flying open.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

And I've learned to trust effortlessness in my career. Like, when you click with people and it's easy and fun, and you're all just. The enthusiasm is really high. You want to make the thing. It's like, I don't believe. I sometimes think effort, like, hard, grinding effort can be a little overrated, that you need to pay attention to where things are actually in flow.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Carter Bays]

And that's. That's. That's cool to hear you say that, because from the. And you've now been on both sides of the table, having written and directed your own movies and stuff. Like, it is, like, at the beginning of these sessions, you get this list, and here's who we're seeing today. And it's like a list, and it's like a name, and then a little space for you to write your comments. And so it's just like a very clean sheet of paper with, like, nine names. And you just see that, and you think, like, these are, like, nine people right now just. Just hoping that their name. Like. And it's. By the way, it's this, like, nine different branches of, like, where the universe could go. This could be a show with this person as Ted, or this person is Ted. And it's. And I feel like it's a lot of the stuff we talked about on How I Met your Mother because just the fact that, like, destiny takes such a big part in the search for love. And I feel like How I Met yout Mother, at its core is like. It's this struggle between. Is falling in love something that I go out and seek? Do I take action to meet the person that I spend the rest of my life with, or is it something that happens to me and I have to just sit back and let it happen? And that's like. That's the casting process. I mean, it really is. Like, I feel like there's no way to.

[Craig Thomas]

Well, there's a good.

[Carter Bays]

There's no answer to that. It's an unsolvable question.

[Craig Thomas]

A good theme has emerged of our conversation of just, like, there's some preparation, and then there's some luck in letting go and leaning into that part, too. And you're right, Josh. And writing, too. It's like, you can't. If you're forcing it too hard, that might be a sign that it's not quite right. And the doors did keep opening for you. Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

In some ways, you guys had to honor the themes of your show. And the creation of your show.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Do you know what I'm saying? Like, you had to be open to, like, the right person at the right time. So I'm trying to remember. So I go to the studio. You had one other guy there. I think another 10.

[Craig Thomas]

The other guy was Bob.

[Carter Bays]

Can we say who it was?

[Craig Thomas]

We can say it was. It was Bob Saget. He was a little too old. The role. And that's why he became a future talent.

[Josh Radner]

A consolation prize. Yeah, yeah, it was.

[Craig Thomas]

He was really good. But it's like you're just a little old. But. But no, no, I don't think we should say names of hood.

[Carter Bays]

No, no, no.

[Josh Radner]

Let's not say names.

[Craig Thomas]

Everything was just lies. But very talented. Another very talented.

[Carter Bays]

You know what? I'm just going to. Can I just throw this in? It's someone I remember being there. And because you go to these things and there's two. There's always two. And everyone in the room, including the, you know, the head executives at cbs, everybody knows there's the guy that they want and then there's the other guy that they're bringing in just to show. Like, yeah, but we really want this guy. And I think everyone knew that, including both of the actors involved. And I remember feeling just. Cause my mind always says, like, how can I have more anxiety about this moment? Okay, I'll feel bad for this guy. And I remember. Cause he was really. And not to say who he was, but he went on to be super funny and great on another show that I was a huge fan of an actor. So that was.

[Craig Thomas]

It worked out. Right.

[Carter Bays]

It was nice to see that.

[Josh Radner]

Can I say the. I do know this story that really made me laugh. It's a Rob Greenberg line. Because I think I also had to read a Barney scene. It was. It was Barney trying to get me to go to laser tag or something in the test. And Rob Greenberg apparently said afterwards about the other guy. I feel like he wants to go to laser tag. Like, he would go to laser tag. I really believe Josh did not want to go to laser tag with this guy. Guy.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe like a little jockey, a little different energy. Yeah. There's something. Yeah. It had to be plausible that you would not have gone and you would not have gone to laser tag, and that's why you were right.

[Josh Radner]

No, I'm just curious. Like, just when people become so important and kind of iconic in your life, like there's that moment when you f. When you see them for the first time, that kind of gets etched In. In your own personal history. Like, I'm just curious what, but how you envisioned Robin Shtcherbotsky. I don't know if that was her last name in the pilot. Was it? I think you came up with that.

[Carter Bays]

It's. It was. It was Robin. Kitty Shotsky is a character from Anna Karenina. I think I. Like, I. I think I was like, thought I fancied myself a reader and I was like, I'm going to read Anna Karenina and. And got like 20 pages into it and then stole one name. Stole a name and that was it. Yeah. Yep, exactly. Tolstoy. I got you.

[Josh Radner]

Did you have an idea in your head of who this woman was?

[Carter Bays]

It's interesting because you've got five main characters. Four of them were absolutely drawn from real life. Like, Ted, Marshall and Lily were me, Craig and Rebecca. And again, then it becomes nine other writers come in and add their own, hang their own stuff on the Christmas tree. And Barney was very much inspired by a couple guys that sort of. Of were that kind of Falstaffian presence in our lives. When we lived in New York, the only character who was completely made up, whole cloth was Robin. And so it really was like, the casting process was sort of this process of like, let's see if we can find her. Let's see who this could be. It really was like, it wasn't like, oh, yeah, that. I mean, heaven knows. Like, I think Neil got cast as Barney despite the fact that he sort of was physically nothing like the people that Barney was based on. But like that, you know, I remember.

[Josh Radner]

You guys tossing around Jack Black as a prototype. Like, I think you saw him much more bigger. And yeah, yeah, there was.

[Craig Thomas]

There was like a Vince Vaughn road and like a Jack Black Road, but we were more down the Jack Black road, I think, wouldn't you say, Carter? And then, like, Neil came in and was like, shit, that's too good. It's too good.

[Carter Bays]

But I do think the one. The one insight that I think we. We happened upon that I'm. I'm proud of us for happening upon was this feeling. Cause, you know, of course you get picked up and of course the first thing is, like, who can we get in it that will help its chances of getting on the air?

[Craig Thomas]

Who's famous?

[Carter Bays]

But there was a feeling, like, I remember thinking, like, so much of Robin is built into this moment where Ted looks across the crowded bar and sees this person, and we see her for the first time as Ted's seeing her for the first time. And if it's someone that you already have this built in expectation of. Of, like, oh, I loved her in this, or I hated her in that. Like, you're already. You're outside of the moment, and you're not having that. It's not that. That moment of, like, there's a mystery here to be solved. I need. I want to get to know this person.

[Craig Thomas]

But it can't be like, you see. You see a person and you're like, I know what you did last summer. It can't be that. Yeah, it has to be like, I.

[Carter Bays]

I have to never know what they did last summer.

[Craig Thomas]

You have to not know what they did any summer. Because.

[Carter Bays]

Tell me about your summer.

[Josh Radner]

I think a mystery.

[Craig Thomas]

A mystery about that.

[Josh Radner]

Me and Kobe's relatives of obscurity or anonymity at that point really served us. It served you guys in the story because you're discovering these people. You're discovering them, and you want to feel like you've just happened upon them rather than having any foreknowledge of them.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, it was perfect. Who was more famous and who was not more famous in that of those five. You know what I mean? Like, the famous people fell into the right spots in the cast. And. And. And we met you. It's a. The word met is in the title. It's about meeting people. We meet Ted. We never. We've never seen you before. We meet Robin. And that. You're right. It was like the audience met you guys.

[Josh Radner]

But Carter, it also occurs to me when you're. When you're talking about Robin being invented out of whole cloth, on some level, she was the woman you were hoping to meet, right? Like, she was a. You know, she became dimensional and. And spiky and all these things. But she was like, what if I looked across the bar and just spotted this woman? What would she be like?

[Carter Bays]

For sure, yeah, she was built that way. But it was a combination of make her everything that would be like, of course he falls in love with this person, but also give her things that. It was almost like in sort of like judoing the. Like, what's the tension of this series gonna be? We've got this character who just wants to, you know, his drive is fall in love. He's like. Has this, like. He gets hit by lightning in this first episode of, like, eureka. I want to get married. I'm like, ready? Okay. My friend just got engaged. I want to settle down. Like, how do we create tension? And I feel like that sort of like, naturally led to Robin just becoming this character that her central drive, at least at the beginning, is. I don't want to settle.

[Josh Radner]

But I do remember my first seeing Kobe for the first time down a hallway, walking towards me. And, you know, you just have to do all this, you know, chit chat, and then you are supposed to, you know, simulate this thing together. But I do remember at, I think, the network test. So it was just me by the time, I think you. You just brought me to the network. Is that right?

[Carter Bays]

Right.

[Josh Radner]

Or did you bring both guys? God.

[Craig Thomas]

Carter, you remember. I feel like in the network, you have to still bring two people. I feel like it's always. There's always another person. I can't remember. But maybe it was just you by that point, because when you were with Kobe in a scene, that was the network, I think, and that was probably just you guys.

[Josh Radner]

Oh, yeah, that was. Okay. So maybe. Maybe the studio.

[Craig Thomas]

That was a big deal. That's the last step before you were officially hired. Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

But I do remember I had gotten. I kind of would get these waves of heroic confidence. Like, the higher stakes it got would get, like, a little more like, I'm. I'm gonna get this, you know, like, it was this competitive streak came out in me, and I would sometimes say things that were, like a. Like just a little, like, chutzpahy in a way that was, like, risky. But I remember when Kobe. She threw an actual drink in my face. She had some water, and she threw the water in my face, and everyone laughed. And the scene's over at that point. And I turned to the brass at CBS in 20th, and I said, as if this process weren't humiliating enough, and it got this really big laugh, and I felt like that was good. I just want them to know I just wanted them. I always hated the power imbalance in being an actor and saying, like, please give me this role. And I always wanted them to know, like, I got something going on here. I hope you understand. So I. I just wanted to level it the tiniest bit because it's so. It's so outsized, the power. When you walk in there and there are these executives that run Empire seated.

[Craig Thomas]

In, like, bleacher level, like, theater seating, like, tiered seating. Like, it's a little. The little play just for them.

[Carter Bays]

The whole thing, stage managed to make you nervous.

[Craig Thomas]

It's not comfortable. It's very stressful, and it's weird purpose.

[Carter Bays]

They want to see that you can rise to, like, be, like, really, like, under the gun.

[Craig Thomas]

And there's pressure in the air in that room. And Carter and I, of course, feel like total frauds. We're sitting in these bleachers with all these executives. Meanwhile, two months earlier, we're the people, you know, bringing our little script to them. Like, please, you know, we were the you a month earlier, and now we're in the judgy seats. And so, like, I felt I had such empathy for you in that moment, but you were great. And you and Kobi, the energy of you and Coby.

[Josh Radner]

I did feel loved and supported by you guys. By Pam, by Rob Greenberg, by Megan and Dylan. Like, I felt like the people that I had established this rapport with in that first room were really on my side. So I felt really. I felt some wind at my sails. But I remember. I can't remember if we got the offer or it might have been a Friday. We maybe had to wait till a Monday. I can't remember. I think it was. I don't think it was immediate, but I got the job, like, within days. And then next thing you know, we're making a podcast about this. Do you guys know the West Memphis Three? The. The. The three kids who were railroaded into. They were on death row for killing this. I think, girl, it was kind of a satanic panic thing. And they were called the West Memphis Three. And they got put on death row as teenagers, and they were totally innocent. It was like an absolute sham. But I think they were on death row for about 20 years. And there was this guy, Damien Echols, who I ended up doing an evening at Joe's Pub with this kind of evening of written letters. And I met him backstage, and he'd been on death row for 20 years. And I introduced myself to him because I had just seen a documentary about them. And he said, I hope it's okay to say this. I'm such a fan. I watched so much How I met your mother when I was behind bars.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my gosh.

[Carter Bays]

Oh, my gosh.

[Craig Thomas]

I've never heard that from you. Never.

[Josh Radner]

And I said, can I ask you, like, what. What was it about the show? I'm always so curious, what was it about the show that. That. That you wanted to see? And he said. He said it was fake enough that it took me away from where I was, but it was real enough that it promised a world that I was hoping I could rejoin one day.

[Craig Thomas]

Wow.

[Carter Bays]

Wow. Wow.

[Craig Thomas]

That's amazing.

[Josh Radner]

And I just. That always stayed with me. That kind of, like, hyper real, but real kind of quality and what that can do to people. You can look at the show as diversion from your troubles. Or you can look at the show as a meta commentary on your real troubles in your real life. Right. Like, it's got this. It's got this ability to meet people where they are. That part of what we're doing. Carter, Craig, and I keep talking about this mystery that we're trying to solve of, like, why does How I Met yout Mother. Why has it lasted so long? Why did new generations keep discovering it? And why does it seem to be medicine, like, soul medicine for people in hard times? But, you know, that story about Damian is, like, I think, really illustrates something about that.

[Craig Thomas]

That's one of my favorite reviews of the show I've ever. Or assessments of the show I think I've ever heard.

[Carter Bays]

That's beautiful.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. There is so much more to our talk with Carter, and you'll be able to hear it soon in a bonus episode of the show. So look out for How Craig Met Carter if you want to delve into that sordid history. It's not sorted. It's delightful. If you follow or subscribe to the show, all our bonus episodes will just show up in your feed. So hit that subscribe button button. Also, starting next week, we will begin our official rewatch of each episode of How I Met yout Mother, starting with the pilot. We strongly suggest that you watch the episode before listening to our discussion. We know that most of you will have seen it once or twice or according to the amazing messages you have sent us, 17 or 30 times. But it's time to start again. So rewatch with us, and if it's your first time watching, welcome. We're so happy you're here. The very first day that we announced this podcast, we received questions and stories from around the world. And we're looking forward to all of you sending yours in as well. Just go to the website how we made your mother.com and click on contact. And here are just a few of those incredible questions and stories we receive from around the world. This one is from Kajal in India. Hello, legendary people. Assuming I'm the first one to write. Why would he assume that? I don't know.

[Mimi]

He was correct.

[Craig Thomas]

Very.

[Josh Radner]

He was. He was.

[Carter Bays]

This was the first.

[Josh Radner]

Okay, amazing.

[Mimi]

The first message.

[Josh Radner]

Kajal, forgive me.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God.

[Josh Radner]

Assuming I'm the first one to write. And he was. Just wanted to wish the best of luck for this podcast. Can't wait to hear what you guys have got to say. Thank you, Kajal.

[Craig Thomas]

Wow. Badass Kajal. Okay, this one's from Michael in Iran. He says every time the gang Laughs or cries or in any matter, emotional. I have these feelings, too.

[Josh Radner]

This one's from Mia in Germany. First, thank you so much for this podcast. I'm rewatching the show every time I finish it. My first tattoo is going to be in honor of Himyim. There's no way to get this data, but I'm really curious how many How I Met yout Mother tattoos are in the world.

[Craig Thomas]

I mean, I feel like I've seen literally dozens in person upwards.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, 100. I mean, it's incredible. So thank you for staining your bodies with memories of our shows.

[Craig Thomas]

That's commitment. I'm not sure I like the show that much. Here we go. This one's from Daniel. He's from Peru. He says Himyim is my comfort series. I watch it when I'm happy, when I am sad, when I am mad. I want to thank you, Craig, and Carter. I'm adding that for creating this piece of art and you, Josh, for giving your heart and soul to this project. I own a little music box that plays La Vie en Rose and own a ducky tie.

[Josh Radner]

This one's from Julia in Austria. The show helped me through some of the harder times, especially my quarter life crisis, when seemingly all of my friends have been in relationships and I was still on my own trying to figure.

[Craig Thomas]

Out life from Danella from Chile. She wrote to us in Spanish and we got it Google translated, which led to this. I started watching this series about two or three years ago. My husband recommended it to me and I became obsessed with each of the episodes. The story, how the stories were woven in time, the flashbacks of the seasons, the pineapple, the goat, the pumpkin, et cetera. My obsession has been so great that my husband and I agreed that we would only watch it once a year. That's better English than I speak in, so good job, everybody.

[Josh Radner]

I only watch the entire series once a year. Is that right?

[Carter Bays]

Interesting.

[Craig Thomas]

Well, I wonder how many times she's up to then.

[Josh Radner]

What does that equal and how long it takes to watch the entire series. Right, because if you watched one a day, it would be two thirds of a year.

[Craig Thomas]

That's a good point. So it still takes up a lot of time. She's not minimizing it that much if she's watching it at that rate. Okay. But I love it.

[Josh Radner]

This one is from Amanda in New York City. There are no words to describe what the show How I Met yout Mother means to me, but I will try. Hi. I was 19 when I watched the show for the first time. Which was only seven months ago. Showed to me by my friend Samantha, who claimed I'd love it. I didn't believe her at first, but that night we watched half of season one and I was hooked. I think How I Met yout Mother taught me it was okay to take time to get where you need to be. Finding comedy in serious situations, especially the way the show executed it, is a metaphor that I've used in my real life. You need to find the humor and joy in even the most dire situations. That really is the only way can truly get past them. I can say with my full chest that this show saved me from a really hard time in my life and taught me it was okay and to never give up, because in the end, you'll end up where you need to be and most importantly, you'll be happy with it. This show is the definition of trust the process, and I adore it very much. To Carter and Craig, thank you for this show. And Josh, thanks for executing the most imperfect role in the most perfect way. I love that.

[Craig Thomas]

That's a great compliment. Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Ted Mosby is far from perfect, but he's better because he's human. You did a great job portraying that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[Craig Thomas]

Wow, that's beautiful. Thank you, Amanda.

[Josh Radner]

Unbelievable. Thank you, Amanda. Thank you to all of you.

[Craig Thomas]

I just love that the framing of that was like flashback to when I was 19, by the way. I'm still 19. I enjoyed the framing of that very much. I remember when I was 19 seven months ago. I'm still 19. Okay. I loved it. Amanda, amazing message. Thank you for that.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. Fantastic. Craig, what's it like for you when you hear all this?

[Craig Thomas]

It's mind blowing. It's absolutely mind blowing. Knowing that it helped people get through a hard time and, you know, gave them some sort of framing device for their own life, in a way.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

It's very humbling because we started off here we are at the beginning of talking about this series. We never could have imagined it would lead to messages like that. It's just deeply humbling and we don't tend it lately. Thank you, best friends.

[Josh Radner]

And, you know, I think that at your best, at your wildest, at the wildest edges of your imagining of what the show could be, it's that, right?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

No, just you make. You make art with the hope I hope it has. It's like a message in a bottle. Like, I hope this reaches someone, and I hope the message is not, you know, eroded and, you know, destroyed by the time it gets there. There's something so great about, about you show something and they have the response and beyond even the response of what you would hope. I just find it incredibly moving when art is received in such an open hearted, sincere, beautiful way. It must be really. I mean, we share in it. But you really, you and Carter and your team, you know, penned the thing. So I just think, I hope other people who are listening to How I Met yout Mother, even other people, sorry, who worked on How I Met yout Mother, you know, the props department and the editors and I'm sure people who worked on the show are tuning into this. I hope they also feel some sense of, wasn't it incredible to be a part of something this special?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Everybody put their heart and soul into it and it got a lot of the people who worked on it, Josh and I included. Making the show helped us get through some of our hardest times, I find. And I find that it just seems like some of that energy made it into the show, like the show was that to us in creating it in real time. And now people, years and years later and people who are 19 years old and going through their own hard time are feeling that in the show. And it just makes me feel like we baked something in there that's lasting.

[Josh Radner]

And also this notion of watching characters go through hard times with this sense of, of chosen family and community and that they landed on their feet and they were able to laugh in the midst of hard times, like How I Met yout Mother was still. It was brightly lit, it was shot on a soundstage. There's laughter piped in. It was a fantasy, but it also was attempting to gesture at something very true about being alive. I am guilty. Please acquit me. All sins are forgiven in New York City.

[Mimi]

How We Made youe Mother is hosted and executive produced by Josh Radner and Craig Thomas. The show was produced by me, Alec Lev, and our co producer is Doug Matica. Our audio producer and mixer is Alex Reeves at Point of Blue Studios. Artwork by John Morrow. Please follow rate and review the show on Apple Podcast or your podcast player of choice. It really does help the show. Our theme song is NYC by our own Josh Radner. Special thanks to Lola Kennedy and Elliot Connors. Visit how we madeyourmother.com to sign up for our substack mailing list and for links to our social media. You can also click on the contact page to send us an email or a voice message. Your stories and questions are an important part of the show. Subscribe to Josh Radner's Muse letters on Substack. Read Craig Thomas published [e-mail] and you can subscribe to My Dead Father Society, also on Substack, to learn about how you make a difference, this show's ongoing campaign to raise money for congenital heart disease research. Check out the Make a Difference tab on at the top of our website. This episode was made possible by the support of Backyard Ventures Marketing provided by Tink Media. People will, in fact dance the real.

[Josh Radner]

Question it just hit me. Am I in love with you or just New York City?

[Craig Thomas]

I remember in season one we would have to drive somewhere else to sound mix the show and I had the guard letting me on was like how I met your mother.

[Carter Bays]

That's.

[Craig Thomas]

That's that reality dating show, right?

[Carter Bays]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

And I think I was like, yes, it is.

[Carter Bays]

Well, the first reaction was always, sorry, what about my mother?

[Craig Thomas]

What did you say about my mother?

[Alec Lev]

Geico's motorcycle expertise gives me the coverage.

[Carter Bays]

I need like 24. 7 claims I'm on cloud 9 disclaimer.

[G]

Clouds are wholly unable to support the weight of an adult human.

[Carter Bays]

What's happening?

[G]

Furthermore, clouds are not numbered. Even if you procured a jetpack and searched, you'd find no cloud number nine. However, at that altitude, you'd likely befriend a flock of migrating snow geese. Geese who'd encourage you to leave your 24.7geico motorcycle claims insurance behind, as they would take you in and even share their dinner of crickets and clovers with you. Geico assumes no liability for any indigestion that may occur from a clover cricket dinner. Geico expertise for your motorcycle if you.

[Alec Lev]

Work in quality control at a candy factory, you know strict safety regulations come with the job. It's why you partner with Grain Grainger. Grainger helps you find the high quality and compliant products your business needs to inspect, detect and help correct issues. And the sweetest part is, everyone gets a product that's as safe to eat as it is delicious. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickgrainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.