How To Play Xing Hai Shi Bu Xing | S2E8 “Atlantic City”

Summary

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Podcast Summary: How We Made Your Mother

Episode: How To Play Xing Hai Shi Bu Xing | S2E8 “Atlantic City”
Hosts: Josh Radnor, Craig Thomas, with Alec Lev and guest Kate Micucci
Release Date: December 15, 2025

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Overview

This episode of How We Made Your Mother dives deep into "Atlantic City," episode 8 from Season 2 of How I Met Your Mother. Hosts Josh Radnor (Ted Mosby) and series co-creator Craig Thomas, with series editor Alec Lev, reflect on the challenges and joys of making a rare "road trip" episode that takes the whole gang out of their usual haunts in New York to gamble, get married (or not) in Atlantic City, and confront the emotional ripples from Lily and Marshall’s broken engagement. The conversation takes listeners through memories of frantic last-minute rewrites, the meta realities of making sitcoms in the 2000s versus today, gambling misadventures, comic set pieces, and a special guest appearance by Kate Micucci (the Atlantic City registrar), who recalls her brief but memorable part in the episode.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Context and Challenge of "Atlantic City"

• Episode Background

  • "Atlantic City" is a road trip episode where the gang attempts to get Marshall and Lily married quickly to avoid dealing with the drama of family after their breakup.
  • Writer Maria Ferrari, at the time a writers’ assistant, penned the episode—a feat increasingly rare as showbiz changes reduce traditional paths to staff writing positions.
  • The episode first aired November 13, 2006.

• The Difficulty of a New Format

  • Craig: “I think we didn’t know how to write an episode where the whole gang’s like, let’s go to a whole different city and keep everyone’s little thread alive…” [09:04]

  • The entire writers’ team felt “at sea”—mirroring the episode’s ending—having to manage all five core characters outside their familiar environments, juggling b-stories and comedic beats without the comfort of the apartment or bar sets.

  • Josh: “It’s almost like taking your family on vacation and you’re like, I don’t know how to do anything.” [13:19]

The “Classic TV” Conversation: Old Models vs. Streaming

• The hosts lament the shifting landscape of TV, the narrowing of writers’ rooms, and missing the creative muscle (and pressure) that 22-24 episode seasons provided.

  • Josh: "I think that a lot of times we try to pull apart television or we pull apart the model of how things have been done. And for a while it looks like, oh, we discovered a new way. But what you’re seeing is all these different streamers... are just going back to the model…because there was something satisfying." [05:03]
  • Craig: “Podcasting is radio…We’re just slapping names on shit. Like, it’s new. It’s not new.” [05:59]

Writing Process: Rewrites, Panic, and Structure

• The crew details the weekly grind—table reads, relentless notes, late-night rewrites—especially sharp in this episode due to unfamiliar terrain.

  • Josh, on frantic rewrites: “Now my memory of this one is that there was more massive rewriting being done on this episode than anyone I had remembered up until that point.” [08:51]
  • Craig, on lost structure: “We didn’t have everybody, all five characters, a beginning, middle and end... I like to think that was rare.” [11:40]

• The emotional core—Lily trying to escape the pain and judgment of family over her breakup—is what finally “locked in” the episode, discovered only late in the rewrite cycle.

Favorite Moments & Comic Set Pieces

• Barney and the Chinese Gambling Game

  • A highlight was the running gag of Barney playing an elaborate, nonsensical Chinese gambling game, understood only by him and Marshall.
  • Craig: “‘The name of that game in Chinese translates in English to Deal or No Deal, the show we were losing to in prime time...That was an inside joke...’” [27:08]
  • The creators delighted in how much effort went into making something so “meticulously planned to make no sense.” [55:49]

• Visual Gags & Mannequin Moments

  • Ted’s simple plot: being attracted solely to Robin in a bikini t-shirt, enhanced by eating licorice—a nod to actor “business” like Brad Pitt always eating on film.
  • Radnor: “It’s satisfying to watch someone want one thing, you know, because we’ve all been mono focused.” [23:32]

• Pedicure Scene & The Power of Unity

  • Josh: “There’s something funny when all five are united in…getting a pedicure together.” [17:54]
  • They reflect on the rare joy of having the gang simply enjoy being together, which is often sidelined in favor of conflict or A-story drama.

• Cracking Jokes on Atlantic City

  • Ted on the city: “There’s a rotting orca on the beach…” [18:59]
  • Craig: “There’s also something adventurous and weird and great about it.” [19:31]

Real-Life Memories and Behind the Scenes

• The cast’s own early Vegas trip, where Cobie Smulders (Robin) improbably won big at the roulette table, echoed the on-screen camaraderie and luck (“…she hit the roulette wheel. And I remember her face. Like, we all cheered in a way that we…would get excited…” [17:03]).

Guest Star Corner — Kate Micucci’s Memories

• Kate Micucci’s Perspective (audio segment starts around [43:29])
  • On being cast: “...I only have, like, a minute to show what I can do and hopefully bring it for everyone who’s hired me. So yeah, it is always a little bit stressful when you have just a few lines.”
  • On getting recognized: “People will come up to me and they’ll say, I love your episode of How I Met Your Mother… that’s a testament to your show and how wonderful it is and how loyal your fans are.” [46:10]
  • She credits her friendship with writer Gloria Calderón Kellett for the cameo.

Writing as Memory & Metanarrative

• The structure and modal jump-cutting of HIMYM are mirrored in the podcast’s own reflection—memories are non-linear, highly selective, and rooted in emotional resonance.

  • Josh: “It really does have the feeling of looking through an old photo album and being like, oh my god. Totally forgot about that night…” [59:55]
  • Craig: “Memory is really strange, which I suppose is the premise of this entire show, but we’re experiencing it as we talk about the show on a podcast, which is even weirder. The meta levels are stacking up.” [28:54]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Writing Gauntlet

  • Craig: “Did that ever alarm you guys as a cast, Josh, when you would see when you’d go to bed and the script hasn’t shown up…?” [09:04]

• On Atlantic City’s Unique Mood

  • Barney (as quoted by Josh): “‘Ah, AC. Always in decline, never hitting bottom. Good to see you, old friend.’” [18:45]
  • Josh: “Atlantic City is the not Moby. To Vegas is Moby... It’s not even close.” [53:57]

• On the Show’s Emotional Center

  • Josh: “A person often meets their destiny on the road they took to avoid it.” [35:10]
  • Craig: “They’re literally in international waters. That’s how far they’re trying to run away from the thing they’re trying to avoid.” [36:05]

• Single-Entendre/Airplane-style Comedy

  • Josh: “I love when How I Met Your Mother falls into these old timey Three Stooges kind of grout. Like Marx Brothers rhythms, but like craps. Not that nervous. No, I meant you want to play craps.” [25:19]
  • Craig: “That’s like a Naked Gun joke… The single entendre.” [25:51]

• On the Value of “Filler” Episodes

  • Craig: “If this was a 10-episode, 12-episode season, you’re not going to have Atlantic City in here.” [38:16]
  • Josh: “If someone’s expecting this in their inbox, or you better get moving… There’s something about the 22, 24 episode order that both has you lean into absurdity…” [37:37]

• On Guest Acting

  • Josh: “Guest starring is the hardest thing, like dropping into this organism that's already up and functioning and just coming in…” [47:06]

• On Memory as Storytelling

  • Craig: “You don’t. Your memories aren’t like. Here’s the entire conversation we had, right? You remember a snippet. You remember one little bit, and then it jumps ahead…” [51:01]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-------------|------------------------------------------------------| | 02:51 | Intro to the episode, writing staff, and episode set up | | 03:43–05:03 | How the writers’ room ladder has changed, TV industry talk | | 06:51–08:02 | “Atlantic City” episode summary and themes | | 08:50–14:05 | Table read process, frantic rewrites for this episode, production panic | | 15:19–17:49 | Finding the emotional center, Lily’s journey | | 17:54–19:43 | Favorite comic moments: pedicures, jokes on Atlantic City | | 21:22–24:43 | Ted’s “bikini t-shirt” subplot, prop comedy | | 25:19–27:41 | “Single entendre” gags; elaborate bar game as “Deal or No Deal” reference | | 29:44–32:24 | Craig searches for old scripts and outlines; what changed from outline to screen | | 36:05 | “International waters” as escape metaphor | | 37:09–39:47 | The challenge and value of 22/24-ep seasons; structure of the show | | 43:29–46:47 | Kate Micucci's audio segment on her guest role | | 47:49–58:07 | General Q&A: Cheers, extras, gambling, improvisation | | 58:25–59:55 | Song choice: "Sink to the Bottom with You" and its meaning in the episode’s context | | 59:55–61:16 | Reflection on the show as a time capsule and photo album | | 61:24–62:02 | Quoting Isaac Dinesen: “The cure for anything is saltwater...” |

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Closing Reflections

The hosts emphasize the rare, irreplaceable connections forged by collaborative storytelling: “Not many people have this much of their, you know, 30s documented,” marvels Josh [59:55]. “It’s a living photo album of us at a time in our lives that’s pretty extraordinary.” “Atlantic City,” while at first glance a comedic detour, emerges on reflection as an experiment in format, tone, and depth—a heartfelt testament to the value of resisting formula just long enough to rediscover what makes a group (or a show) a “family.”

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For Further Exploration

• Music Note: “Sink to the Bottom with You” by Fountains of Wayne provides a poignant end, resonant with Marshall and Lily’s journey.
• Call to Listeners: The hosts invite fans to share their own “How I Met Your Mother” memories at howwemadeyourmother.com, underscoring the show’s enduring, deeply personal impact.

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Transcript

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[Craig Thomas]

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[Josh Radner]

I'm alone. What a pity. I won't be soon in New York City when I see you. Please permit me to tell you everything in Atlantic City. Well, hello, friends.

[Alec Lev]

Hello.

[Josh Radner]

It's Josh Radner. I'm here with my friend Craig Thomas. Hey, Craig.

[Craig Thomas]

Hey, Josh.

[Alec Lev]

Hey.

[Josh Radner]

We're, we're talking about how I met your mother. That's a show we made together. From 2005 to 2014, we did 208 episodes of that show. People still watching. People still love it. People still talk about it. We. We're still talking about it. We're we're now edging up close to the age of the older Ted narrator character. So we are looking back on this time, this younger time in our lives when we made a TV show about a younger time in these people's lives. The meta situation here knows no bounds. But today we are talking about episode. What episode is this episode? Episode eight. It's called Atlantic City. It was written by.

[Craig Thomas]

This was written by Maria Ferrari, who was a writer's assistant at the time and who went on to become a writer on How Much yout Mother and has Gone on to a bunch of really cool things since then. And she wrote this one. I think this was her first episode, I think. Boy. No, wait. There may have been one in season one. I'm having a moment. You were just talking about how old we're getting. And this is just proof of it.

[Josh Radner]

But it's a huge thing. You remember we were talking about Courtney had. Courtney Kang had been on, like, four different shows that all got canceled before her episode aired. So I think Return of the Shirt, right, was her first episode from season one that had ever made it onto the air. I mean, there's a weird thing in Hollywood where you can be like, shooting pilots and shooting shows, you know, episodes of canceled shows and no one ever see. You can't tell your hometown friends, like, here's my episode, or I'm gonna be on tv. But you're working. You're like, getting your health insurance. You're working in Hollywood. It's. It's weird.

[Craig Thomas]

It used to be a very. That part's weird. Another part that's gotten even weirder is becoming a writer's assistant or script coordinator. That little mini department in the writing department of a TV show. That used to be kind of the most logical way to become a writer, right? Every other way requires some bit of magic or miracle. But the work your way up way is to get in a writer's room and be in there and learn and soak things up and hope that you get an opportunity to write a script on that show and move into being a writer. Maybe on that show or another show, your next show passed it and you're going to be a writer on that show. It has gotten so hard to do that now. There are so few shows. The rooms have gotten so small. The episode orders of TV shows like these little streaming shows that are eight episodes, ten episodes, so small. So it was already really hard to do when writers on our show like Matt Kuhn and Maria Ferrari, Jenni Hendrix, like writers assistants, had graduated to then write him episodes and get on staff. That was pretty hard to do 20 years ago. It's exponentially harder to do now. It really is. We get asked, Carter and I all the time, like, well, what's the path? And we're like, it started off hard and it got harder. So God bless you if you're out there doing it. If you can get into a room and be a writer's assistant, it's still a great way to do it. But there aren't as many 22 episode opportunities to do that.

[Josh Radner]

Well, it's hard, I think, to reinvent the wheel. I think that a lot of times we try to pull apart television or we pull apart the model of how things have been done. And for a while it looks like, oh, we discovered a new way. But what you're seeing is all these different streamers. All the. Now they have ads now they're not doing them. They're not dropping. All the episodes are doing it once a week. It's like they're inventing television. They're bundling the streamers together. Suddenly you have cable.

[Craig Thomas]

Ridiculous.

[Josh Radner]

It's. They're just going back to the model of because there was something satisfying. I think the reason everyone freaked out over the pit was not just because it was a great show, which it was. It was because it was an old model dusted off and made new again. But it was like every week a procedure following a group of people in a workplace. Like, there was just something very satisfying about it. And I think, like, we can try to reinvent the wheel, but ultimately, like, I think they did crack the code of what makes TV work. And we're just gonna come back to it, hopefully.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And podcasting is radio. Like, we've put new names, we've put new. We're doing a radio show. That's what we're doing. Like, we're just slapping names on shit. Like, it's new. It's not new.

[Josh Radner]

So this episode of Atlantic City was episode eight of season two. Alec, tell us when this episode aired.

[Alec Lev]

What was the air date this aired on? Yes, this aired on November 13, 2006.

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[Josh Radner]

And Craig, give us.

[Craig Thomas]

I would wager there's always a little extra beat after Alex has the date where we just briefly contemplate our own death. Like the Grim Reaper just breathes.

[Josh Radner]

That little pause is us going, it's coming, it's coming. You can't see it, but there's a grim. There's Grim Reaper behind both Craig and I. It's Matt Kuhn dressed as the Grim Reaper.

[Craig Thomas]

The razor sharp size of the Grim reaper just briefly appears and then goes off the screen. Here we are. Comedy, comedy.

[Josh Radner]

Craig, tell us. Give us a little synopsis of what this episode is.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, this is a road trip episode. This is the whole gang on a road trip, which I love. And we hadn't really done. Everybody just goes to a whole other city. We'd flirted with some of Philadelphia in season one, but this is Marshall and Lily get the idea to go get married today. And it's in part so that Lily can Dodge the judgment of Marshall's family. I forgot that sort of motivating spark that this, this is an episode about dodging the repercussions of a breakup and not wanting to be in front of everybody who is angry at you that there was this breakup. And then realizing in the end you have to face that this is Lily's journey to escaping a wedding, only to come back around to realize she does want a wedding.

[Josh Radner]

You know, it's funny, we were just talking about, like, trying to reinvent TV and realizing you just. The model's there. It's almost like they try to escape a big part of a wedding, which is family weirdness, confrontation, like things not going according to plan. You kind of say like, oh, let's, let's avoid all that. And ultimately you're like, that's actually part of it. That's part of the, the ritual, the stepping in, you know, the uniting.

[Craig Thomas]

That's a rite of passage.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, you're uniting two families. Like it's. There's going to be hiccups ahead, you know. Okay, so I had a couple memories of this episode. I remember. So, so, so we've. We've laid out the model of how the show works. So we would get the, the table read draft on a Friday when we were shooting the. We would read it on a Monday for like 45 minutes or an hour. There'd be a nice fruit and bagels and cream cheese, and then we would go home. You guys would get studio network notes, rewrite it. Some days we would get the rewrite kind of quick. Other times it would get it later at night if there was more significant changes. We'd come in the next day, get it on its feet with Pam and then do a run through for the studio network. You guys would get another round of notes and then do another rewrite before we shot Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Now my memory of this one is that there were more massive re. There was more massive rewriting being done on this episode than anyone I had remembered up until that point. Is that. Is my memory correct?

[Craig Thomas]

I think we were. Yeah, that. I. God, I didn't remember that. It's funny how you block. It's like blocking out the, the labor pains of like. Yeah, I, I didn't remember that. But now that you mention it, I think it. I think that's right. I think we didn't know how to write an episode where the whole gang's like, let's go to a whole different city and keep everyone's little thread alive and make sure it's all satisfying. Everyone has enough to do. I think it was more challenging to write or we were more out of our comfort zone in putting that one together. I think that's right. Did that ever alarm you guys as a cast, Josh, when you would see when you'd go to bed and the script hasn't shown up even on email. I think there used to be hard copies delivered and it hasn't even been fucking emailed. Out you go. This is a disaster.

[Josh Radner]

And I wrote you this little ditty to sing to you in New York City. We'll be right back.

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[Kate Micucci]

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[Josh Radner]

And now back to the show. You'd kind of glance at your computer or, you know, and. Or phone. It ended up being phone. And you know, like sometimes it'd come through at 8, 7, 39, but some nights you'd be going to sleep not that early and you'd be like, whoa, that script still hasn't come through. And you'd have an image of like you and Carter and the writers, like still there, you know, like still pulling, like a later night.

[Craig Thomas]

Tuesdays were tough because the math of a Tuesday wouldn't add up in a production week. It just didn't add up because the cast, the actors, you know them, you're one of them. You guys would need the whole morning to rehearse, to put it on its feet, to block it out on its feet, right? You did a little bit of that maybe Monday afternoon, maybe. But then Tuesday you get there, there's this whole rewritten script from the Monday table read, post table read, rewrite, that whole rewri right on Monday night. Now you're on Tuesday, you're Tuesday morning, you and Pam, you're going through all the scenes, all the sets, all the swing sets. You're blocking it out. You're seeing what these scenes feel like. And you have till lunch to do that on Tuesday. And then you take a little food break. And then we do the run through for the studio and the network, which is on our soundstage, walking from set to set, acting it all out. And then you guys leave, the cast leaves for the day. Maybe you go to wardrobe, whatever you do, like if they're, you know, probably you mostly just went home at that point. And then we begin that rewrite. What is it now? Three o', clock, you know, whatever it is, mid afternoon, afternoon. And if you got a lot of notes, you, you just do. You backtrack the math. You go, we are going to be here late. We're. We were lucky we didn't have a ton of those. It was always a little bit late on Tuesday just because of. I explained the math is so rough on that day. But this one and through, I hasten to point out, through no fault of Maria Ferrari, who's a wonderful writer, we might just. My suspicion or my half memory is we didn't, we didn't have everybody, all five characters, a beginning, middle and end. Like whatever their funny little runner is. Maybe we're missing some payoffs. Maybe we didn't have the way it all came together at the end. There was something missing that we hadn't figured out. And I like to think that was rare.

[Josh Radner]

You know, it's interesting that you guys as writers got a little bit disoriented by not being in the apartment, in the bar. It's almost like taking your family on vacation and you're like, I don't know how to do anything.

[Craig Thomas]

How do you clothe a child in.

[Josh Radner]

Atlantic City versus, You know, so you're, you were, you were at sea, which is funny because the episode ends at sea. You, you guys were, I think, like there were new rules. Each episode has its own internal logic, right? And you guys, I think it took you a little bit to figure out the one bit in this episode that I remember. I think was there from start to finish was Barney and the weird gambling thing that he understands that they can't understand and that, that, that Marshall understands. I think that I remember being in the table draft and going all the way through.

[Craig Thomas]

Well, what's funny is on How I Met yout Mother, whenever we tried to do something that another show would think of as simpler, like, oh, great, everyone's all together. Just big long scenes with everyone together going through a big farce in a limo. Like the limo. It's exactly what I'm thinking of. We always somehow fucked it up. We always. The simple thing. It's like missing a free throw in basketball. It's like the simple thing always was hard. We'd much rather be spinning 45 plates at once. Cramming like 80 scenes into 20 minutes. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. When everyone's just standing there playing out big long scenes together. That was always hard. And the answer was usually find ways to get in there and chop it up and do flashbacks and the gambling game. And we just didn't want to go too long having to do big long scenes. Not that you guys weren't. You guys are great as a group in big long scenes. But writing wise, I think we got up in our heads with. Wasn't the strength of our show the.

[Josh Radner]

Strength in big long scenes were those emotional scenes in the third act?

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radner]

Like, that's where it would breathe more. And where it's length and uninterrupted, where it wasn't so choppy. That's where a lot of the payoffs for the episodes came. But you had earned it by having a lot more fractured storytelling up until those moments.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And I think finding that emotional depth of like, what is this episode really about? Because to us, I think our mistake was like, it's just a fun romp to Atlantic City. It's a farce.

[Josh Radner]

And.

[Craig Thomas]

But when we're missing that emotional grounding piece which I think we realized was Lily's trying to dodge these repercussions and realize this like. And I like that little running thing where the judge and the ship captain senses their ambivalence. There's even these strangers they've just met are all kind of like, what are you trying to run away from here a little bit. And once you realize that's what this was about, then it made sense. But maybe we realized that Tuesday night at 10pm and that's why we were there till 3 in the morning.

[Josh Radner]

You know, Craig, I actually saw. Thought of something that I don't know that we've ever talked about, you and I. I don't know. But didn't before the episode aired. And I don't remember if we were there for some convention or something, but we as a cast before. No, no, no. This is before the show even aired. This is what made me think of this, because of the casino and everything. We all went to Vegas. Do you remember us going to Vegas?

[Craig Thomas]

The cast or the cast and you and me.

[Josh Radner]

You were there.

[Craig Thomas]

Like, me and Carter. Me and. Me and Carter. We were. Yeah, I think we did. To, like, mipcom or something.

[Josh Radner]

It was, like, thing we went to.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, there was. That's right. I didn't. We didn't appear on stage with you. You guys did your own thing. And I think we were on stage with Dana Walden or Ed or something as, like, a writing panel.

[Josh Radner]

But we. We were. It was pre. It wasn't airing yet, I think. So we were kind of anonymous in Vegas, But I remember, and we should confirm this with Kobe. We were all gathered around a roulette table, and we had to go. I think they gave us, like, a certain amount of money to gamble with. And I don't. I should just say I don't love gambling. I don't have the thing. Like, I don't. I. It makes me just mostly anxious to gamble.

[Craig Thomas]

Kobe, I'm the same.

[Josh Radner]

Threw, like, on a lark. Just threw a ton of money on, like, a number. Like, one number. And she hit it like she hit the roulette wheel. And I remember her face. Like, we all. We all cheered in a way that we. You saw us throughout the series when the five of us, like, would get excited. Like, she. She made. I don't remember how much money she. But she, like, it was like a very cool moment in a casino with all of us. So maybe we were drawing on that when we go to fake Atlantic City because we had been in real Vegas.

[Craig Thomas]

I was not there for that. Carter and I. Maybe we were all there.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. I want to ask Kobe if she remembers that, because I'm sure she does, because it was like, one of those things where you're like, how do you get the number on the roulette wheel? Like, it was crazy.

[Craig Thomas]

Pure luck. There's no skill involved. No, no. It's just. Yeah, that's really funny.

[Josh Radner]

I love the pedicure shot when all five are getting a pedicure, because it feels like there's something funny when all five are united in. There's no, you know, so much of a TV show or a play or Anything is drama and conflict. But there's something satisfying about seeing, like, no, we're all gonna take a break and get a pedicure together.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. In a way, that's what this whole episode was. There isn't big intra character conflict, a little between Marshall and Leia. I think that's why it was a little bit hard to write. But when we found those moments and those little edit jump cuts, like, boom, they're making fun of Barney one second. And boom, there they are. And the music cue on that is very much like this piece, Holiday for Strings, that we always used to use on Letterman for little bits. Like I remember saying to John Sweihart, holiday for Strings, but change it enough that we don't get sued. That was off on a music note. But, yeah. But yeah, seeing you guys all together is funny.

[Josh Radner]

I love when Barney Watson says, ah, AC Always in decline, never hitting bottom. Good to see you, old friend. This deep relig.

[Craig Thomas]

There's so much shitting on Atlantic City in this episode.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

One of my favorite versions of shitting on and all, but also what I like about it is there's some shitting on Atlantic City. And, you know, take the head. Atlantic City. There's some shitty stuff about it. There's also something adventurous and weird and great about it. Yeah, I have my favorite shitting on Atlantic City. Joke in here is where Ted talks about there being a rotting orca on the beach. There's a rotting orca, but then there's also this sense of adventure and possibility. Like, they need to find a ship captain, and they just do. It's very original. Star Wars. It's like, we need a ship captain in this.

[Josh Radner]

I'm a ship cap.

[Craig Thomas]

Where people are losing their limbs. I'm a ship. Oh, Han Solo over here. He's a. He's a ship captain. Yeah.

[Alec Lev]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

So there is, like, a little bit of AC love of, like, weird. Like weird adventures happen there, but there's also a rotting orca.

[Josh Radner]

There's also something a little bit like when you're in la, it's kind of like in Swingers, like, let's go to Vegas. And you can get there in what, four hours? Right? But in New York, you can't drive to Vegas, but you can get to Atlantic City. Like, there's something about the proximity to the city that makes it, like, you forgive it a little bit for whatever, you know, the rotting orca on the beach. Because it's close, you know?

[Craig Thomas]

It's close. It's right there. Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Like, if you have to gamble immediately. You can go there.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, it's like. Yeah, it's like going to, like, Epcot center and like. Yeah, it's like the countries of the world. I know it's not really the thing, but it's kind of a little taste of a thing. I think we. I remember researching this episode because we're like, they'll go to Atlantic City and they'll get married or they won't get married, blah, blah. The stakes are you can just go to Atlantic City, get married. And we researched it and realized you can't like, all those things, at least at the time that, you know, the clerk woman there who. Who's also running Keno, She. She's right. Those are all true. You can't just go to Atlantic City and get married. And people apparently make that mistake and drive to Atlantic City and realize to their disappointment, you can't just do it. And we thought, remember when we're researching the idea, we're like, oh, I guess bad. That idea doesn't work. And then we thought, no, that's what's great. Like, they have just hurdle after hurdle after hurdle. Let's steer into it. Let's steer into the reality. You can't just do that. So what do they do? How do they come close to getting married? What's the weird way they get there? So that was the journey.

[Josh Radner]

I loved her line when I think Lily says, are you sure about this? And she says about the marriage laws in the state where I work at a wedding chapel. Yeah, I'm sure.

[Craig Thomas]

She was funny.

[Josh Radner]

I was really pretty delighted with. It's so funny that when you're on a TV show, if you're the C story, you feel a little bit like, what did I do wrong last week that they're giving me so little? They're punishing me this week.

[Craig Thomas]

I always feared that. Do you. That's funny to hear.

[Josh Radner]

But as I'm doing this rewatch, I'm noticing that, like, the C stories that I'm a part of, B or C stories, are actually hilarious and delightful, and I'm. I like them. Like this one in particular, you know, we talked about. I love this one, Marshall. Like, in that one episode, I think single stamina, his whole thing is like, I like fruity drinks. I want a fruity, fruity cocktail. You know, And I'm not going to be ashamed of it.

[Craig Thomas]

Right?

[Josh Radner]

That's his entire thing.

[Craig Thomas]

That's it.

[Josh Radner]

And in this one, Ted is attracted to Robin in the bikini T shirt. Like, that's his whole.

[Craig Thomas]

That's all it is.

[Josh Radner]

That's all it is. And I remember. I don't know if props gave me the licorice or if that was in the script, but, you know, when I'm talking to Robin, I'm just. Just chewing on the licorice. It was either Courtney or. It was either Courtney or Gloria. I remember during one of the runs, just, like, doubled over because there's something so, like. I don't know, it's almost like how Brad Pitt, they say, is always eating in movies. You know, there's that bit of, like, you just put all. He's always kind of eating as, like, that's really funny. And I felt like there was something that was really helping me be faux casual by just, like, gnawing on this Twizzlers.

[Craig Thomas]

Ted's really, like. Ted's tapping into his dude energy in this one. He wants to go play blackjack. He wants to go to the strip club. He's eating that piece of licorice as he's. As he's ogling Robin's shirt. Body. Not even her actual body. Yeah. But it does weirdly kind of turn him on and that. The simplicity of that story, like, people on a journey wanting one thing is so It's. That's all it should be. I want one simple thing. It's like the wizard of Oz.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

A heart, a brain, courage. Like, you just need. You need to want one simple thing on your little journey. Then you just get to go on the journey unencumbered. But you have one thing.

[Josh Radner]

And it's satisfying to watch someone want one thing, you know, because we've all been mono focused. Is that like. Like, we've all been, like, zeroed in on, like, one thing. And especially, like, if you're hungry, you just want one thing, which is food. If you're horny, you just want one thing. Like. Like, we are pretty simple creatures. It all. It also made me realize, like. Like the. The way that men, especially, I'm speaking very broadly, just get so triggered by visual things. You know, like when you do a double take on a mannequin and you're like, that's a mannequin. That's shaped in a way.

[Craig Thomas]

That's a mannequin. What's wrong with me? That is.

[Josh Radner]

That is designed to trigger me. But I also. The way that Cobie Smulders wears that outfit with such, like, ease and nonchalance is so funny. Like, when she just shows up in it. Where did that come from, just having her in that shirt?

[Craig Thomas]

Well, it Was. It was the. We liked the idea that Lily is like, you're dressed kind of better than me. You can't be dressed better than the bride. I think that joke happened. Then we're like, okay, what. What could Robin go to a cheesy tourist gift shop and walk out wearing.

[Josh Radner]

Right. So she dresses down. So to not outshine the bride.

[Craig Thomas]

Exactly. And. But whoever. I don't think that was my. Maybe that was Maria. It's a great. The fact that it's the bikini shirt and he's ogling the cartoon boobs the whole time is really funny. That is one of the funniest parts of that episode. That's a great observation, and I hope any young actors are listening. Sometimes it's a gift to have the simple little thing. In the pilot of How I Met yout Mother, all Barney wants is for Ted to put on a suit. He has no story. He has no backstory. He has no emotional arc. Except that is kind of his emotional arc. He just wants to be important to Ted. It sort of sets the tone for the whole series, but that's all he wants. And when Ted puts on the suit, his story's over.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, but then it's also like, there was more to him wanting to put on. We didn't know it at the time, but him wanting him to put on a suit was connected to, like, the father he never knew. Like, nothing is small if you really do your work and interrogate it, you know, and. And let it live. I loved just. I love when How I Met your Mother falls into these old timey Three Stooges kind of grout. Like Marx Brothers rhythms, but like craps. Not that nervous. No, I meant you want to play craps.

[Craig Thomas]

That's a good line. That's a. That's like a naked gun. That's a naked gun joke.

[Josh Radner]

It's. It's a very naked gun joke. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Like, once a month, I will laugh out loud by myself. Just walking around remembering when Frank Drebin is going through the drawers, when he's snuck in at night to find evidence to, you know, to prove there's this criminal conspiracy. And he opens a certain drawer in a filing cabinet, he goes, bingo. And takes out a bingo card. Just holds it up. It just says bingo.

[Josh Radner]

It's just.

[Craig Thomas]

Those are. Those are things. Those are glorious. Those moments are glorious. And craps. That's an airplane naked gun joke. Basically.

[Josh Radner]

The humor is the utter literalism of what's in front of you. It's like not understanding analogy or that things can be Two things at once.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes. The single entendre.

[Josh Radner]

The single entendre. That's right.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, that's right. It just.

[Josh Radner]

It's so. It's because it's childlike. Right. Like, it's not like you're not thinking multidimensionally. You're thinking one dimensionally.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes. And this episode is mostly very simple, except for the elaborate Chinese gambling game, which I hasten to point out. The name of that game in Chinese translates in English to Deal or no Deal, the show we were losing to in prime time.

[Josh Radner]

Oh, is that right?

[Craig Thomas]

When this aired in 2006.

[Josh Radner]

So that was like an inside joke.

[Craig Thomas]

That was an inside joke to kind of, you know, slightly shit on dealer. No, the absurdity of the. There's a show beating us where it's Howie Mandel pointing to briefcases and then there's money or there's not money in the briefcase. And that show was like getting millions more viewers than us. And we were really upset. So we said this elaborate game that makes no sense. It comes down to jelly beans and people switching seats. It's going to be called Deal or no Deal. That's how bitter we were.

[Josh Radner]

It's such a funny thing that the only one who understands it is Marshall. Because he's the game guy.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes. It goes back to game night in season one. And Marshall, he has this savant, like, ability to decode really convoluted games. And, yeah, he's the only person besides the Chinese businessman and Barney that understands how to play this game. I loved how elaborate that game was. There's a giant wheel, there's jelly beans. That was a delight to do.

[Josh Radner]

I love Craig. There's the moment when it's like, what is he? Is it the jelly bean in his hand or someone else's hand?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, it's in a woman's hand. Like a show.

[Josh Radner]

But they're kind of. There's a push in on everyone and everyone is waiting to see. There's just that quick thing of Ted is just looking down at Robin's T shirt. It's like blinking. You miss it. But he's like, not focused on the game.

[Craig Thomas]

That is a great little moment. Did you find that? I wonder if you found that moment and we just added that in. I'm not sure if that was written in. That was. That's a. That's really funny.

[Josh Radner]

Oh, I don't know. That's a great question. I don't know if we'll ever know.

[Craig Thomas]

I know. 19 years ago, us has the answer.

[Josh Radner]

Oh, my God. It's so wild. What sticks and what doesn't. Like, you were mentioning that episode in, like, season seven, and I was like, I don't remember the main plot you described, but I 100% remember the gag you described.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes, it's weird. Memory is really strange, which I suppose is the premise of this entire show, but we're experiencing it as we talk about the show on a podcast, which is even weird. The meta levels are stacking up.

[Alec Lev]

Craig, can I ask it? I'm definitely not suggesting you should do any extra research. What do you have from the past? What files? What history do you have if you wanted to find it?

[Craig Thomas]

I mean, I could probably go back and find. We have all the scripts, obviously, but yeah, I didn't keep like an organized. Like, here's all the notes we got on this. If I looked back here. I'll try right now. Ready?

[Alec Lev]

Are we googling live here?

[Craig Thomas]

Atlantic. Atlantic City, episode two. What episode was it? Two. Oh, no. 209. You said Alec. Or 208. 208 episode 208 notes. I'm gonna do it right now.

[Alec Lev]

This is drama. This is all staying in the show.

[Craig Thomas]

See, I got nothing. Atlantic City. Come on. That's crazy, right? Like, this was my email address during the entire show and Atlantic City doesn't even come up as a fucking concept. Tell me a story. The other episode we just wrote, we were talking about that came up. Oh, wait. Are you ready? Hang on. Alec, you'll pull all this together.

[Alec Lev]

I love this. No, this is perfect.

[Craig Thomas]

I did just find the Standards and practices notes. October 9, 2006. There were none. There was nothing objectionable in this episode, said Susie Adlin from CBS program Practices. Hey, Susie, thank you for giving us no notes on that one. I was hoping to find like, network or studio notes, but it's not. I found the original outline from Maria Ferrari. August 15, 2006. So that's when the outline first came out. I found that.

[Alec Lev]

Can you just tell us a little? Can you read like an opening section? Like, what does it sound like to have in an outline? What does a. A scene sound like written out? An outline form?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I mean, this isn't how this episode begins. It said, in cold open interior Ted and Marshall's apartment, Lily serves Marshall pancakes in bed. They're happy to be back together. Lily asked Marshall if being back together means he still wants to get married. He does. They start replanning their canceled wedding, quickly realizing what a pain it's going to be. They already returned the gifts for most of them. Please save the date. We mean it this time. Seems awkward on an invitation. Is any of this in the episode, Alec?

[Josh Radner]

Mm, I don't think so.

[Craig Thomas]

And the new wedding won't be as nice as the old wedding was gonna be since they lost all their deposits. Possible flash to something funny Marshall used the caterer for on their actual wedding day. This is like an early outline where we had no specifics.

[Josh Radner]

Wait, had they gotten the Van Smoot house?

[Craig Thomas]

They had. And that's. And they lost. Yeah, they lost all this money. I guess they could reuse those. I wonder if. Do we ever explain if they used their suits and. Well, she destroys that wedding dress. So that never came back around.

[Josh Radner]

They're still in debt from the wedding dress.

[Craig Thomas]

They're in a financial hu. Financial hole. Lily said, wouldn't it be nice if they just already got married instead of having to face the guests and the families again? Which is what the episode really is about. But we probably didn't figure that out enough until later. Lily suggests they elope. They can drive down to Atlantic City and get married that day. Marshall loves the idea. They get more. More and more excited. At the end of this day will be Mr. And Mrs. Marshall Aldrin Erickson. Marshall. I'm not taking your name. Lily. We can talk about it in the car. This is all like. These are all like placeholders. This does give you a little sense. It's like placeholder things. We know it's going to be something like this, but almost none of that right. Is in the actual episode. We changed basically everything.

[Josh Radner]

And this old man, he must admit he fell in love with you in New York City.

[Craig Thomas]

And now commercials.

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[Craig Thomas]

End of commercials. Back to show.

[Josh Radner]

I often find when I write a script, the first scene I write that I think is like, oh, this is the central scene of the whole. You know, it almost always gets cut. Or when you're in editing and you think like, oh, this is the scene that explains the movie. Or this is the scene that explains. That also goes away. Like, a lot of the ways into the story are not what you end up with.

[Craig Thomas]

Absolutely.

[Josh Radner]

But it's fascinating. You're writing a draft to yourself. The first draft is always to yourself to figure out what the story is. Yeah, yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

You're just trying to. Yeah, you're selling. Yeah, that's it. You're the first person you're selling it to. You're selling it to yourself to keep writing it. Like you're writing it for a future you that is going to figure all of these things out. And some of the outline, a lot of the outline often makes the episode. But that was all kind of not really in there. I mean, but the idea is that it is the idea. The idea is we don't want to face the family, so we're going to run away and it'll just be simple in Atlantic City. Except it's not simple in Atlantic City. And they realize you can't just run away from your family and the ritual, the crucible of walking your way through that wedding, walking down that aisle and facing all those eyes. Right. And saying, we are a couple. And, you know, Lily's fear that she's gonna be reviled by Marshall's family, she's like, I gotta face this. And I thought that was a great. That was really when the episode came into focus.

[Josh Radner]

I think I've said this quote on this podcast, but there's that quote, like, that a person often meets their destiny on the road they took to avoid it. And it feels like this is like, that's it. Yeah. They're trying to avoid their destiny of, like, not just marriage, but having to live with the perhaps dissatisfaction of, you know, that like. Like, it's not just that Lily feels like, oh, Marshall's family is. Is mad at me. It's that Marshall is almost defensive, like, because everyone's like, we don't want you to get your heart broken again. Because, boy, did he not have an easy time with that breakup. So there's people who are trying to Protect him. But it also feels like in some ways, the judge and this ship captain function as the reminder that they're not getting out of this. Like, what is that? Like, what is that? Like, you can't. You're not going to be able to avoid the discomfort of this.

[Craig Thomas]

And it's actually kind of brilliant. Like, it's a great metaphor that we sort of stumbled into that says what you just said, which is, they're literally in international waters. That's how far they're trying to run away from the thing they're trying to avoid. They're in. They're in international waters on, like, this janky, old, like, ship captain's, like, boat, like, you know, whatever that boat is actually used for. I don't know if he specified, but it's. You can't. You can't run away. They're going to have to face it at some point. How much further are they going to run? Farther are they going to run than, you know, the Atlantic Ocean. And there's something nice about accepting their destiny and saying, we're going to be. It's still going to be great. It's still going to be great. It's going to be great because we walked through fire to get there. We walked through, you know, all of these things we were trying to dodge.

[Josh Radner]

You know, it occurs to me that when a network says, give us 22 episodes. Give us 24 episodes. Because I'd say half the seasons we were getting 24 orders, right?

[Craig Thomas]

Like, I think more than not. More than not. Yeah. Yeah. This was still 22 season 2. But after that, I think it became 24 until the strike, usually.

[Josh Radner]

So in some ways that the ferocious. I just read that Dostoevsky wrote Brothers Karamazov, like, for a magazine. Like, he would. He would do monthly installments. Each chapter was a month, Right?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Dickens, too, did a lot of the details.

[Josh Radner]

Dickens did that. Shakespeare had to produce three plays a season for a company that was depending on him to produce these plays. I think sometimes deadlines are fantastic motivators for creativity, right?

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Radner]

If you have all the time in the world, you might do nothing. But if someone's expecting this in their inbox or you better get moving. Yeah, but there's something about the 22, 24 episode order that both has. You lean into absurdity and like, okay, let's get them out of the bar. Let's get them out of the apartment. Let's. Okay, Atlantic City. Let's have them, you know, go back to Minnesota or whatever. Some of that Stuff can feel like fat, but some of it can actually force you to exercise different narrative muscles, you know, which I think is like, yeah, if. If this was a 10 episode, 12 episode season, you're not going to have Atlantic City in here.

[Craig Thomas]

We wouldn't do it. I was thinking the same thing. It didn't really get you anywhere. You couldn't have skipped over. That's the sort of flaw of the episode. And that's maybe why it was a more difficult rewrite. It's really interesting to hear you say, I remember this one was like five in the morning, this motherfucker comes around, comes out, and we're shooting at 9am I think it's really telling that the episode itself, you could lift it out and the story of the season works fine.

[Josh Radner]

Right.

[Craig Thomas]

But there's this emotional thing. Yeah. There's like an emo. There's emotional commerce happening there. There's like something Marshall and Lilly had to emotionally process that we're showing the audience. And I think it brings them into those characters journeys more. I really think the episode has value. I like this episode, but it's true. I think it wasn't absolutely season plot crucial. Right. That's fair to say. It could lift out.

[Josh Radner]

But there's something about two things. One, the central idea of, like, okay, this is. We. We're acting like this is easier than it. Than it is. But also the fact that like, Ted and Robin and Barney are along for the, like, no matter if their families are there, that family's gonna be there.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

You know, so. And it's. It's a. You know, it's also a little bit funny. Like, if you're always trying to create situations where the five of us can be together. A lot of that one is like, they're best friends, right? Oh, they're best friends. The other is you're contractually obligated to put us all in the episode, like every episode, you know, so you have to create a context where we all, like, roll together.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, that's right. That's right. And I think the Barney gambling thing and the intimation that Barney had this gambling addiction. It's very funny at the end on the boat where he's like, why can't I just do it a little? And like, he really. He, like. That was another weird element of Barney that we got to explore by thinking of Atlantic City, by thinking they're gonna go there. And what is Barney gonna do in Atlantic City? Well, he's got a gambling addiction. He's like the Fonzie of Atlantic City. Everyone seems to know him. He knows the rules of his elaborate game. Marshall's gonna understand the game, and Marshall alone will understand it because of something we set up in season one. It's very cool how things come together like that. Right? And then what are Ted and Robin gonna be doing? They're just. They're a couple. They can't have a couple problem. Whole episodes about Marshall and Lily's couplehood, and what's the stupidest thing we could have for them that just makes them fun. And I like to think we really nailed it. It's really one of my favorite parts of the whole episode. They literally go have sex in, like, an Atlantic City municipal building's broom closet because Robin's wearing a shirt that has nice boobies on it. It's absolutely absurd. And Ted somehow woos her into doing this while eating a piece of licorice.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, that sexy, sexy piece of licorice.

[Craig Thomas]

Which is just. It's the sexiest thing a guy can do. So it's a very fun episode in the end, but. But it's sort of. It's a reset.

[Josh Radner]

I also do think, like, having Barney. Barney has so many swirling kind of addictions that he does. This is one of the few he calls an addiction. But he's clearly addicted to, you know, women and sex and seduction, and he's. He's addicted to buying suits 100%. He has this kind of shopping addiction. He doesn't seem. He doesn't. I've never thought Barney was an alcoholic. Like, he looks like he holds his liquor pretty well, and it's more of a prop to meet women.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, it's part of.

[Josh Radner]

But he has all the other addictions.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, he really does. He has many, many. The list is very long before you get to alcohol, put it that way. Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

And it's perfect that, you know, the cigars and gambling is just, like, part of it. But it's also like when he studied, you know, the playbook of someone else of, like, how do you be a man? He. You know, he almost has, like, a rat pack kind of idea of manhood. It's very, like, 50s, kind of what used to be. It's like. It's like he's a real. He's a character out of time in the last.

[Craig Thomas]

He really is. He wants to be parting with Sinatra. He really is just of that. That's what his brain imagines himself as the main character in a Sinatra film, basically.

[Josh Radner]

We did have a really fun guest star on this episode. Friend of the Show. Very good friend of Kobe's and Gloria's, who we all love very dearly. Kate Micucci, who played. We just looked it up. Registrar in the municipal building.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, you're welcome for that juicy part, Kate, as a friend of the show. Registrar. People were clawing for that part.

[Josh Radner]

But Kate is a like, truly hilarious actor.

[Craig Thomas]

She's so funny. We should have given her a much longer part. But she's funny in this.

[Josh Radner]

Well, she was with Ricky Lindholm. They did Garfunkel and Oates, which was, I think, on Comedy Central for a couple years. She's so funny.

[Craig Thomas]

A delight. She came in, in this little part and was hilarious and charming within the span of a minute and a half. And that's who Kate is. She's just. You get it right away. Yeah, she's so funny.

[Josh Radner]

So I ran into her recently. We did a reading of a friend's screenplay and I said, oh, we have your episode coming up and would it be okay if we kind of quizzed you on your memories or. So Kate was lovely enough to answer a couple of our questions. And. And we have that audio right here. Let's play a little of that. Alec. Hey, Josh.

[Kate Micucci]

Hey, Craig, it's Kate Micucci. Thanks so much for having me on your podcast to talk about this episode. Atlantic City, baby. I have a few questions that you've asked me, so I'll just go down the line and share my memories as best I can. Okay. What are my memories of shooting the show? Well, I have a terrible memory, but I do remember being very excited to be on set. It's very early on in my career. I hadn't done too many things, so it was just exciting to like be a part of it. And also I'm really good friends with Cobie Smulders and so it was just exciting to, you know, be hanging out with Coby and meeting all of her. Her co stars and the people she works with on a day to day basis. So that was very exciting for me. I don't remember having that haircut, but then I just revisited it and wow, that's quite a haircut I have. You know, it was. Was a quick scene. It's a quick little pop and I just remember being like, oh, I wish that had lasted longer. Which I guess brings me to another question you had, which is what is it like to drop in for two to three lines and then nail it? Oh, thanks, Craig, for saying that. I nailed it. What is it like? It's a lot of pressure because especially something like this where I'm pretty new to acting. I haven't been, you know, on many shows, and then here I am on a successful TV show, and I only have, like, a minute to show what I can do and hopefully bring it for everyone who. Who's hired me. So, yeah, it is always a little bit stressful when you have just a few lines. Okay, another question. You have my relationship to how I met your mother. So I ended up on this episode because my great friend Gloria Calderon Kellett was one of the writers on this episode, and she said, katie, come on, I want you to be in the show. And I still had to audition, but I remember auditioning, but no one else was there. So I don't know if it was one of those things that I just kind of had to prove that I could do it, or maybe everyone else had already auditioned and I came in last minute. I'm not quite sure, but, yeah, Gloria. Thanks to Gloria for bringing me to all of you. And it was really fun. That's how I ended up on the show. And actually, and through Gloria is how I know Kobe, because Gloria would write these plays, and then she'd put all her friends in the plays. And Kobe was in a play that I had done with Gloria and a bunch of really great actors. I think a lot of them ended up on How I Met yout Mother at one point or another. And do I get recognized for this role? I actually do, which is wild because it's such a short amount of time, but yet people will come up to me and they'll say, I love your episode of How I Met yout Mother.

[Alec Lev]

But.

[Kate Micucci]

But I don't know that that's a testament to my performance as much as it is to your show and how wonderful it is and how loyal your fans are. And I think that that says a lot about how you know, people who really know your show. People listening right now, they really dive in in such a great way. So any little. Any little nugget, any little tidbit they'll remember. So I'm glad I can be one of those little tidbits in this big scope of your beautiful show. So thank you for having me. Thanks for having me be a part of it. Thanks for having me be a part of your podcast. All right, have a great day, you guys. Thanks so much.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Bye.

[Josh Radner]

Thanks so much, Kate. It was so good to hear you hear your voice on the podcast, and.

[Craig Thomas]

Such a great little portrait of what it's like to come in, have one small scene, be a really good actor. And nail it in this very limited real estate you've been given in this episode. It's a really interesting perspective we haven't had on the podcast yet.

[Josh Radner]

And we always talk about how we talked about this with Joe Manganiello and like, different actors. Like, guest starring is the hardest thing, like dropping into this organism that's already up and functioning and just coming in. And also generally, you know, she being given, like, a real big ask. Like, there were some twists and turns in her little scene. Like, just comedically, you know, she did this slalom down a hill and has some sharp turns, but she was amazing. And thank you, Kate. It was really good to hear you on here. Thank you, Kate. And see you a couple weeks ago. And yeah, we'll. We'll be back with a little bit more. Welcome back. We are, we're at a section we like to call General questions.

[Craig Thomas]

General questions.

[Josh Radner]

Alec, what it was right on was it.

[Craig Thomas]

It's the Internet. We always turn on each other. It's the Internet. The Internet has ruined everything, including our friendship.

[Josh Radner]

Well, we, we, we love to hear from you. We love your questions. We love anything you want to share with us about how you discovered the show, what the show means to you, why you keep watching it, how it's affected your life. Please go to how we made your mother dot com. You can also go to whim. Hw y. Wait, no, we. Hwm ym whim. Or how we met your mother dot com, go to contact. And it should be pretty clear about how to send in a question, how to send in a testimonial. Is that what we're calling them? But maybe we'll read your letter at the start of the show. Maybe we'll read a letter at the end of the show or air your letter at the start of the show.

[Craig Thomas]

Rather, it's the best part. Hearing from you guys is the best. It's the best part of this whole thing. Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Please let us know also if you're enjoying the podcast. Let your other how I met your mother loving family and friends know that we're doing this. We'd love to. To go through the show with more people. And Alec, what do you have for us in these questions that are more general?

[Alec Lev]

I do have. I have a few really good ones for today. I just want to ask a little bit, let you guys talk about a topic always worth talking about. Cheers. I just want to point out the sort of vast difference between the way you both were describing this show. Josh, you were talking about the 22. The 24 episodes, giving you the pressure and almost the. The need the right to go do something as crazy as, hey, let's all go to Atlantic City. And Craig, you were talking about the short scenes. You felt so much more comfortable with the short scenes. And this defining show for both of you, for all of us, was basically a 24, 25 minute play in one location that almost never escaped it. And I sort of like hearing you guys talk about how difficult this order of this many shows is. Makes me just doff my cap ever deeper to Cheers and what it was able to do.

[Craig Thomas]

Right? Yeah. All in one set. I mean, it was you. It's so hard to write like that. It's so hard to just like. It's just spotlight up here and then spotlight up 10 minutes, you know, 10ft down the set and then like back here. Back here. It's so the artistry of being able to do that. We were much more bells and whistley than that. Right. Even in this episode, we're jumping locations a lot. We get bored in a hurry. I think as writers, Carter and I, we want to move things along and we don't want big talky scenes unless it really matters. The talkie scene has to stand out from the rest for us. That's always been our recipe.

[Josh Radner]

Well, I also think, Craig, in your defense, I mean, I think you're being a little dismissive of what you and Carter were up to. It is a show that is memory and the way memory functions is much more nonlinear and. Oh, I forgot about this part and. Oh, that. You know, I think it is that you took the form of it from the convention.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, that's right. You don't. Your memories aren't like. Here's the entire conversation we had, right? You remember a snippet. You remember one little bit, and then it jumps ahead and everything in between in your memory is kind of hazy, so your mind edits it and jumps, does a flash forward ahead.

[Josh Radner]

Oh, I left out this part. You know, I didn't go back.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I left out this part.

[Josh Radner]

Exactly.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And it fit that storytelling form, fit our brains really well. That's how we think.

[Josh Radner]

You guys were also, I remember, on an enormous amount of cocaine, I think, during this huge.

[Craig Thomas]

I mean, I still am right now.

[Alec Lev]

We have a great. Pretty simple question that I actually have the answer to. Don't worry about it. From Jessica Wallace, xox, who asks a lot of great questions. Hi, Jessica. She asks how much do extras get paid that are just in the background and have no lines?

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, wow.

[Alec Lev]

We Actually, co producer Doug looked that up. And today, as a Background Actor, for eight hours, you would get $244. And for 12 hours, $392.

[Craig Thomas]

All right. I would have had no answer for that.

[Josh Radner]

You know, what I was always touched by is especially in the bar. Well, some of the background actors were there for years, and we got to know them and it was. Aw. Sometimes you'd see like someone with like a college textbook and you'd be like, oh, these are UCLA students who live in Westwood that are studying on set and just making a couple extra bucks. And I always. I always thought that was like such a good kind of little additional day job for a college student to kind of. Especially living in la, you can do that.

[Craig Thomas]

And whenever any friends or family would visit any of the cast or people who worked on the show, they would be unpaid background extras. I know a lot of my. My son was in. My son was in the background one time. My wife.

[Josh Radner]

Oh, I have. Are in episodes that. That still get flagged from it.

[Alec Lev]

Yeah, well. Well, very confusingly. Todd does show up in the barn around season nine or so I'm sitting there for something or other.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God. You were brought back. And so Alec is referencing. I mean, not that you have to explain your character, but Alec's character was front of mind. Fan favorite Todd from Best Prom ever. Is that him?

[Alec Lev]

Best prom ever.

[Josh Radner]

Okay.

[Alec Lev]

So DA super boil says Atlantic City has such a presence in the show's run. Are Carter and Craig gamblers?

[Craig Thomas]

No, not at all. We did go to Atlantic City for a super weird bachelor party of a Letterman writer friend at one point and for. Why am I saying it that way?

[Josh Radner]

We went.

[Craig Thomas]

Did that first and then also for mine after a year or two after that Alec was at. Which was just as embarrassing and weird as you might imagine. It's very stupid, but fun. I'm right. I mean, it's like Atlantic City. You get there and you're aware that it's like, it's not Vegas. It wants to be Vegas. It's not Vegas. And there's comedy in how not Vegas it is, but you do wind up getting kind of into it and having fun. So we did. Hopefully we didn't on Atlantic City too much.

[Josh Radner]

Atlantic City is the not Moby. To Vegas is Moby. It's like, oh, wait, is it? No, it's not even close.

[Craig Thomas]

It's the not Moby. It's the not Moby. Well, clearly we had. We had too much fun because I briefly forgot that we went there for my I love it. I started with. Oh yeah. I went there once for my friend's bachelor party. Oh yeah. And mine too. I literally. That's clearly there was some drinking involved.

[Josh Radner]

I feel though that, that we smoked cigars like a decent amount on the show and I feel like that came from Carter. Carter I just feel like has more of a smoking jacket cigar kind of and an old fashioned, you know what I mean? Like he's got this kind of like he's a little more in nose. Right.

[Craig Thomas]

He likes, I think he likes every now and again sort of being like that. But he's not real. He's not smoking cigars.

[Josh Radner]

Through the whole run of the show, whenever we smoked cigars, 9:30 in the morning, it was always. Never at night, it was always so early. And Dave Baker was good at smoking cigars and he'd have. Neil was actually quite good at smoking cigars and better than me. But I would always have to say, Dave, show me again. Like I just wasn't.

[Craig Thomas]

It's like a life. That's the thing. It's a life choice. You're either a guy who decides to really learn that and really look okay doing it or you're. There's no middle ground, I feel. And I never really learned how to do it.

[Josh Radner]

You probably had to cut away when I was smoking those cigars because I wasn't. It's not my great talent.

[Alec Lev]

I would say that as a category, the number one type of question we get is about improv. And we, we, we've talked about this a lot. We have clarified. You have clarified. The show is not improvised. We've, we've, we've talked about Josh's great. Mailed it. And there was some.

[Craig Thomas]

I mean, there was some.

[Alec Lev]

And the idea that there were some. I mean the way this question was.

[Craig Thomas]

Asked actually by Jessica again.

[Alec Lev]

Hi, Jessica. Is the game scene. Is the game scene improv to make things as confusing as possible or was it all scripted out?

[Craig Thomas]

No, you can, you, you can only make it insane if you plan it. It has to be very meticulously planned to make no sense. That's the paradox.

[Josh Radner]

Because everyone, everyone playing it is unified in terms of knowing the rules.

[Craig Thomas]

The order of events has to be in stone.

[Josh Radner]

I will say, Alec, I think that this question is a compliment, which means there's something that feels very lifelike and spontaneous about the show. But the reason, like Craig is saying, like, the reason it feels that way is because it's quite well mapped.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, no, it's a compliment to the cast. It's A compliment to you guys because you make it seem very naturalistic. And the truth is there wasn't much improv. We had Kobe on a few episodes ago talking about Slap Bad and the very ending of that episode where the whole gang is watching the music video on Barney's laptop. I remember that was like you guys were riffing a little there. I think we fed you some lines and you were riffing and that had a little bit of a different feel. But that's rare. It's very rare. And to make something as stupid as that intricate gambling game, that makes no sense. So much work and planning goes in that. That's my favorite thing. How much work goes into creating something super, super stupid. That is. That. That is one of my favorite just brands of comedy. But when something feels like, feels chaotic and insane, usually a lot of planning went into it.

[Alec Lev]

And it just seems like, I mean, no show really, your era is sort of when that notion started it that there might be a lot, anywhere from a little bit to a lot of improv. I think we got the idea that in the Office, certainly when you go and you watch the outtakes, it seems like Steve Carell is making up a lot of stuff as he's going on to just keep going and keep going and keep going with that style. But this stuff is pretty tightly scripted.

[Craig Thomas]

We had to shoot in three days. You know, the Office was probably a five day shoot and even that they would have to limit it. Like these movies like Judd Apatow movies. And movies were like, ah. The actors just go and go and go and go. You just can't do that in tv. There's just no time. You have to finish shooting, edit it and get it on TV in a week. Like there's not enough time.

[Josh Radner]

And because of the way the show is structured, it's just so intricate. It's not a lazy porch shooting the shit kind of show. It's like you have 40 to 60 scenes. You gotta move.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Let's see what we come up with on the fly. You can't do it. You have 10 minutes to shoot a whole scene.

[Alec Lev]

Well, just as a last, last question here, Terry OD02 just wants to point out how great the song sync to the bottom with you was. Just want to talk a little more about that music choice as we end this episode.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was so excited. That was, that was me. That was my choice because I, I love that song. I love that band. Fountains of Wayne. Adam Schlesinger, rip Very, very sadly lost him during COVID Such a talented, brilliant melodist. Is that a word? Melodist? Melody writer. He' he is a Beatles caliber melody writer and lyricist. Fountains of Wayne, such a great band. And yeah, I was just a huge fan of that song. I love that song. I play that on guitar a little bit and play it for my son and stuff and it just felt like it fit. It's like this tortured love song, right? It's at this moment where Marshall and Lily are saying, let's crawl through the Shawshank sewer pipe of our judgmental family's eyes and let's go through all the things we're dodging. We'll go through this crucible of all of Marshall's family. Who's gonna think Lily's the runaway bride and scowl at her for breaking Marshall's heart a few months back? And she says, let's do it anyway because that's how we really get married. And that song, Sink to the bottom with you I will sink to the bottom with you I will go in with you. Even if it might mean we're gonna go all the way to the bottom of the ocean together, I'll still do it. It feels like it fit the tone of lift. Sometimes that's marriage, right? Sometimes that's couplehood. You gotta sort of sink to the bottom together. So I was really happy to get that song on there. And it really moved me hearing it again for the first time since Adam Schlesinger died. And yeah, just what a talent. So it was great to get his music on there.

[Josh Radner]

Craig, it's always such a pleasure to dive into these episodes with you. Alec, Doug, Alex, I love you guys. It really does have the feeling of looking through an old photo album and being like, oh my go. Totally forgot about that night. That was insane. You know, it's, it's. It's really like. It's such a fun stroll down memory lane. And not many people have this much of their, you know, 30s documented. Like, like. Like this was before everyone started recording everything. Like, we really do have this living photo album of us at a time in our lives that it's pretty extraordinary. And.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, and it looks great at the ending of that episode. It's every. All of them out on this boat with the sun setting over the horizon. Of course. It's just, it's a really good blue screen. It's obviously, it's just, it's beautifully done. Like, our team is amazing to make that look that good. In the production point and in post, it looked like a really beautiful moment with all of these guys floating out on the Atlantic Ocean and with the sun setting. And it really works. There was something really gorgeous about that. And Marsh and Oli are gonna go back to land and go face the music of actually getting married. It's a great sort of mid. Mid season. Right. We're right. Right about the midpoint. Coming up on the midpoint of season two. And it's. It launches. It helps get you into that next push, which is going to be getting them really married. So it's a good one. This is fun to talk about and revisit.

[Josh Radner]

Just because I'm the. I'm the resident. Since I'm the resident quote guy, I think we can all agree I'm the resident quote guy.

[Craig Thomas]

You're the quote master.

[Josh Radner]

I think Isaac Dinesen has a line that I've always loved that said, the cure for anything is saltwater, sweat, tears, or ocean.

[Craig Thomas]

That's a great observation.

[Josh Radner]

And I feel, you know, they get. They head to the ocean, but no, you know, normally it's like you should get in the ocean, but they were just on. They were atop it and they got their. They got their answer.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

It's our Moby Dick. It's our Moby Dick moment. The wedding is the white whale.

[Alec Lev]

Not. Not Moby Dick.

[Josh Radner]

Not Moby Dick.

[Craig Thomas]

Hey, not Moby Dick. Oh, it doesn't get any better than that. That's like a smartless buy. Not Moby.

[Josh Radner]

I am guilty. Please acquit me. All sins are forgiven in New York City.

[Alec Lev]

How we made your Mother is hosted and executive produced by Josh Radner and Craig Thomas and is presented and distributed by the Office Ladies Network and Odyssey. This is this episode is also executive produced by Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey. The show is produced and edited by me, Alec Lev, and our co producer is Doug Matica. Our audio producer and mixer is Alex Reeves at Point of Blue Studios. Our digital content producer, AKA Gen Z master, is Emily Blumberg. Artwork by John Morrow. Please follow rate and review the show on Apple Pieces Podcasts or your podcast player of choice. It really does help the show. Our theme song is New York City by our own Josh Radner, with additional music by Craig Thomas and Andrew Majewski. Special thanks to Lola Kennedy and Elliot Connors. Visit how we made your mother.com to learn more and click on the contact page to send us an email or a voice message. Your stories and questions are an important part of the show. Subscribe to Josh Radner's Muse Letters on Substack and check out his music and everything [e-mail] order Craig Thomas's debut novel, that's Not How It Happened, wherever books are sold, and check out his other published [e-mail] and you can subscribe to My own Dead Fathers Society, also on Substack. To learn more about how you make a dead difference, this show's ongoing campaign to raise money for congenital pediatric heart disease research, check out the Make a Difference tab at the top of our website. People will, in fact, dance.

[Craig Thomas]

The real.

[Josh Radner]

Question it just hit me. Am I in love with you or just New York City?