How We Almost | S1E13 "Drumroll, Please"

Summary

Detailed Summary of "How We Made Your Mother" Podcast Episode: S1E13 "Drumroll, Please"

Release Date: June 23, 2025

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Introduction

In the thirteenth episode of Season 1, titled "Drumroll, Please," hosts Josh Radnor and Craig Thomas delve deep into one of the most pivotal and romantic episodes of the beloved sitcom How I Met Your Mother (HIMYM). This episode explores the intricate dynamics of love, vulnerability, and the complexities of romantic relationships, all set against the vibrant backdrop of New York City.

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Listener Messages and Initial Reflections

Miles' Tribute ([01:06] - [02:32])

The episode opens with a heartfelt message from Miles, a 27-year-old fan from Newton, Massachusetts. Miles shares his personal connection to the show, emphasizing how Ted Mosby's idealistic and resilient approach to love has profoundly influenced his own battles with love and growing up. He appreciates the show's sincerity in a "hyper ironic world," stating:

"Above all, the show is so great because it is so true to sincerity... HIMYM is not just a hilarious comedy but also medicine for the soul in hard times." ([01:25])

Craig's Introduction ([02:32] - [03:05])

Craig Thomas acknowledges Miles' message before introducing the episode's focus on HIMYM's romantic elements, specifically the "Drumroll, Please" episode.

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Episode Breakdown: "Drumroll, Please"

Plot Synopsis ([06:45] - [07:59])

Craig provides a concise writer’s room synopsis of the episode:

"Ted had this amazing night with a woman, Victoria, where they agreed to not exchange information to preserve the magic of one perfect night. The next morning, Ted wakes up alone, leading Marshall and Lily to think he must find her, igniting the episode's central quest." ([06:51])

Narrative Structure and Themes

Josh and Craig discuss the unique narrative structure of "Drumroll, Please," likening it to other HIMYM episodes like "The Pineapple Incident." They highlight the show's use of flashbacks and mysteries that unfold within single episodes, enhancing the overarching storyline of Ted's journey to find his future wife.

"We are masterful at withholding information and creating some sense of disorientation that ultimately gets solved." ([30:06])

Romantic Ideals vs. Reality ([14:33] - [22:30])

The hosts delve into Victoria's romantic premise of preserving the perfection of their relationship by avoiding complications. They compare it to classic romantic films like Before Sunrise, discussing how both narratives embody the tension between idealism and vulnerability.

"Victoria's premise about not exchanging real names... is an incredibly, wildly romantic thing." ([13:25])

They explore how the episode balances romantic ideals with the inevitable imperfections of real-life relationships, symbolized by Ted's bleach-stained sweatshirt—representing embracing one's flaws.

"The bleach-stained sweatshirt is a sign of your own humanity and your own imperfection." ([62:24])

Character Development: Ted and Robin ([21:47] - [49:52])

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Robin's vulnerability in this episode, marking a turning point in her relationship with Ted. The hosts analyze Robin's emotional breakthrough and how it deepens the narrative, setting the stage for future developments.

"Seeing Robin in tears in that bathroom stall is a huge pivot point for the Robin and Ted dynamic." ([45:17])

Symbolism and Metaphors

Josh and Craig explore various symbols within the episode, such as the snowflake pendant and the importance of subtle gestures that convey deeper emotions.

"It's like leaving a breadcrumb trail for Ted to find her, symbolizing hope and perseverance." ([22:30])

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Guest Contributions and Listener Insights

Ashley Williams' Interaction ([16:52] - [19:35])

Ashley Williams, who played Victoria on HIMYM, shares her thoughts on the episode. She questions the plausibility of a baker missing her role at a wedding and expresses her love for the almost-kiss scene, highlighting the delicate balance between control and vulnerability in her character.

"Can we just preserve this one little thing to keep us hopeful, moving forward in life?" ([15:32])

Clinical Psychologist's Perspective ([44:07] - [51:37])

Jordana, a clinical psychologist and married to Josh, provides an insightful analysis of the episode's impact. She identifies "Drumroll, Please" as a turning point where viewers become more emotionally attached to the characters, particularly due to Robin's display of vulnerability.

"It's the first time we see Robin show real vulnerability, which hooks the audience deeper into the larger Robin and Ted story." ([44:07])

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Behind-the-Scenes Insights

Host Reflections ([40:24] - [63:58])

Josh and Craig reminisce about the production nuances of the episode, including Easter eggs in the set design and the chemistry between the actors. They discuss how certain props, like Ted's bleach-stained sweatshirt, were intentionally chosen to reflect character development and thematic elements.

"It's a great metaphor for the whole episode. It shows imperfections but makes them more meaningful." ([62:24])

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Cultural Impact and Legacy

Throughout the episode, Josh and Craig reflect on how HIMYM has influenced fans worldwide, including stories of the show aiding in language learning and personal growth. They emphasize the show's blend of humor, emotional depth, and relatable characters as key factors in its enduring popularity.

"HIMYM introduced a whole new vocabulary that was funny, fresh, and profound at the same time." ([70:43])

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Miles ([01:25]):

  "HIMYM is not just a hilarious comedy but also medicine for the soul in hard times."

• Craig ([30:06]):

  "We are masterful at withholding information and creating some sense of disorientation that ultimately gets solved."

• Jordana ([44:07]):

  "Seeing Robin in tears in that bathroom stall is a huge pivot point for the Robin and Ted dynamic."

• Josh ([62:24]):

  "The bleach-stained sweatshirt is a sign of your own humanity and your own imperfection."

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Conclusion

In "Drumroll, Please," HIMYM masterfully intertwines romance, mystery, and character development to create an episode that resonates deeply with audiences. Josh Radnor and Craig Thomas's exploration of this episode in their podcast underscores the show's intricate storytelling and its lasting impact on pop culture. Through listener messages and behind-the-scenes anecdotes, the hosts highlight the universal themes of love, vulnerability, and the beauty of imperfect moments that continue to endear HIMYM to fans around the world.

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Transcript

[Craig Thomas]

Before we get started today, I just wanted to let everyone know that we've got some great How We Made youe Mother merch and that 10% of the profits will go to our permanent fundraising campaign to support congenital heart disease research. You can get some T shirts and hoodies and learn more about our fundraising on our website. And also kids, let me tell you about the incredible story of how we met our friends at Amplifier for partnering with us to get this How We Made youe Mother march to you while raising money for congenital heart disease research. Along the way. Yes, Amplifier is helping us to do something good by offering quimium fans something great. So if you're a business with big orders to fulfill, Amplifier is there to help growing consumer brands and influencers create a unique experience for their customers during that fulfillment process. The link to their site is in our show notes and if you name drop How We Made youe Mother, you'll get a special pricing for your Emerging Brands program. By the way, if you just want to donate directly to the research, we would be deeply grateful and the links to everything are on our website. On with the show.

[Miles]

Hey guys, My name is Miles, I'm from Newton, Massachusetts. I'm 27 and I have a lot to say, but I, like many other people began watching the show when I was in middle school or high school, and particularly through Ted's character. But the whole show in general means a profound deal to me as I have battled in the past and continued to battle with the complexities of love and growing up. And I very much identify with Ted in his sort of naive, childlike, wondrous, but also I think quite hopeful and passionate and resilient approach to romantic love and friendship, love and family love and all of these things. So thank you for making sure I keep believing in those things. I do want to say though that the show above all is so great because it is so true to sincerity and we live in a hyper ironic world right now where nobody wants to take each other seriously or be vulnerable out of fear of being made fun of or some sort of un nuanced, just hateful attack. And I think sincerity is scarce but all the more important which makes I Met yout Mother all more important of a show. Thank you guys so so much for this and changing my life. And Josh, I love Liberal Arts. It's one of my favorite movies ever and I just want you to know that my heart is gooey because of you. If you know, you know. Thank you.

[Josh Radner]

Bye bye. I'm alone what a pity I won't be soon in New York City when I. You. Please permit me to tell you everything in New York City. Well, hello. Welcome to another episode of How We Made youe Mother. I'm Josh Radner. I am here with my good friend and former professional colleague, but forever friend, Craig Thomas. Hi, Craig.

[Craig Thomas]

Hey, Josh. We're still technically professional colleagues because we're doing this show.

[Josh Radner]

Oh, yeah, we are professional colleagues.

[Craig Thomas]

This is a profession.

[Josh Radner]

So today we'll be discussing The Josh Ratner 2012 film, Liberal Arts, I believe. Thank you so much for that audience.

[Craig Thomas]

How nice is that to hear?

[Josh Radner]

That was fantastic. And yes, Allison Janney says to my character, put some armor around that gooey little heart of yours. She's quite cynical. I mean, in some ways that scene. Let's actually talk about liberal arts. That scene is an argument between an idealist and a cynic, you know, And I think, you know, I think we all have that, that conversation going on in our heads, right? I mean, How I Met your Mother makes that quite explicit. You know, there's cynical stuff, there's. There's romance and anti romantic people and all kinds of stuff, but I think we're always at war a little bit with the head and the heart, I think.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And afraid to lead too much with the heart because it feels so vulnerable, like he was saying. That was a great message. Thank you for that message. That is the debate, right? How much can we lead with our heart? How foolish will we look if we do that? And yet it's kind of the best thing to do at the same time.

[Josh Radner]

And it does feel, it does feel like all the great moments in our life are the ones where we, we do take that leap, you know, where we do, we, we circumvent the warnings of our heads and we, we go for it. My Jesse, who produced both my movies, Jesse Hera, my friend, he. We always, we wanted to make a movie called the Hero Moment. Just about that kind of idea that like, we have these moments in our lives. I think there's a. My friend always quotes this Cameron Crowe, is it We Bought a Zoo where he says, like, all you need is six seconds of courage or something like that. Where it's like, that'll change everything if you can have those six seconds of courage.

[Craig Thomas]

It's really true. There's a few little junctures where you just have to power through, power through those moments of doubt.

[Josh Radner]

Well, I'm delighted to hear that How I Met yout Mother is good soul medicine for romantics everywhere. And this episode under discussion today is about as romantic as How I Met yout Mother Gets, which is to say, very romantic.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. This is the perfect lead in to this episode.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, we were talking about. Drumroll, please. Which is episode 13. When did this air, Alec?

[Craig Thomas]

This aired on January 23, two weeks after its predecessor aired on January 9, 2006.

Yeah, I'm proud of those two weeks. I'm proud that we waited two weeks to give you who Victoria is. We made people really sweat it out at the end of the wedding episode.

[Josh Radner]

But that's a real. That's a real cliffhanger.

[Craig Thomas]

That was a baller move on our part.

[Josh Radner]

We don't have the patience for that nowadays. But we've talked about how the wedding and Drumroll, please. Are essentially one hour of television or 44 minutes of television. It's really like. It's a two parter.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Much like the pilot and Purple Giraffe. You know, in hindsight, kind of feel like a two parter. Although this. This looks like more consciously like a two parter. Right. Was it designed that way?

[Craig Thomas]

It was. It was. It. It really feels. I watched it as an hour the other night, knowing we talk about these two episodes this week, and, you know, I can't think of it any other way other than as an hour. It's really, really. It was hard to talk about only the first half of it last in our previous pod episode, but because it picks up in real time.

[Josh Radner]

Right.

[Craig Thomas]

It ends. You come right back where you started or right back where you left it. And I love it as an hour. I think it's really great. I think this is a case where I think it's cool we made people wait two weeks, and yet I think viewing it as an hour is probably the superior experience.

[Josh Radner]

So can you give us your quick writer's room synopsis of what happens in this episode?

[Craig Thomas]

Essentially, yeah. This has one of my favorite How I Met yout Mother structures, if I'm honest. We're in episode 13 of season one. We're already ourselves off. Because the form of this has a great resemblance to the Pineapple incident. Right. Where it's the day after and you're piecing together this mystery and clues of the night before. And everyone is needed in the present day, that next morning to put together the full story of what was going on last night. Most of all, Robin. Which is a great twist to reveal that Robin did show up when we thought she was not gonna be able to show up to the wedding. So it is basically, Ted had this amazing night with this woman. They agreed upon this idea, Victoria and Ted, to not exchange information and not hear each other's last names so they could just have one amazing night in the context of this sea of how terrible it is to date in New York City and feel lost. And they say, let's just make this one good night. We'll always hold on this precious thing. They wake up. Or Ted wakes up alone the next morning, not having even kissed. You know, only having done the drum roll to the kiss. And explains this premise to Marshall and Lilly, who think he's a complete idiot and that he has to go find this girl. And then that becomes the drive of the episode.

[Josh Radner]

And I wrote you this little ditty to sing to you in New York City. We'll be right back.

[Craig Thomas]

Hey, Josh.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

I'm gonna introduce an idea. Ready?

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. Hit me.

[Craig Thomas]

Spring smells good.

[Josh Radner]

Agreed.

[Craig Thomas]

You with me so far?

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

This is a children's book I'm reading.

[Josh Radner]

Spring. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Kitty litter smells bad.

[Josh Radner]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Are you still with me? I'm building a logic. This is a logical statement and it interferes with. It interferes with enjoyment.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Right? That's fine. That's how normal people talk. Spring.

[Josh Radner]

Spring. Spring gets. Yeah. If you. If you. If you're. If you're out there, you're smelling spring and you're like, ooh, love is in the air. You know, rebirth, renewal. And then kitty. The smell of kitty litter wafts by day, is ruined.

[Craig Thomas]

And you know what? I scream to the heavens.

[Josh Radner]

What?

[Craig Thomas]

This has interfered with my enjoyment.

[Josh Radner]

I scream, yes.

[Craig Thomas]

So here. You know what? There's a fix for that. Ready?

[Josh Radner]

Tell me, tell me.

[Craig Thomas]

Pretty litter obliterates odors so you can enjoy all the wonderful scents of spring. Ah.

[Josh Radner]

Pretty litter. Pretty litter. This is my favorite phrase. Non clumping formula. I hate clumping formula. So this is the worst clumping formula.

[Craig Thomas]

Another thing that interferes with enjoyment is clumping.

[Josh Radner]

It traps odor and moisture. It's ultra absorbent. It's lightweight, low dust, and one six pound bag works for up to a month.

[Craig Thomas]

Pretty. This is my favorite part. Pretty litter gives you peace of mind. It changes color to indicate early signs of potential illnesses in my cat, my theoretical cat. Like urinary tract infections, kidney issues, and more. I think this is genius. I want this for humans.

[Josh Radner]

Since Pretty Litter ships free right to your door. You'll never run out and you won't have huge kitty litter bags taking up.

[Craig Thomas]

Space, interfering with your enjoyment. Pretty litter helps keep your house smelling fresh and clean. Try it and you'll love it go to prettylitter.com hwmym those letters apply to the title of our podcast. To save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy. That's prettylitter.com to save 20% on your first order, get a free cat toy. Pretty litter.comhwmym we're just gonna keep saying it. Terms and conditions apply. C site for details. Non clumping.

[Josh Radner]

Look, Craig, I'm gonna be honest with you. I sometimes just get paralyzed with indecision. And do you know what paralyzes me with the indecision?

[Craig Thomas]

What?

[Josh Radner]

Too many. Too many choices.

[Craig Thomas]

Too many choices. It's the curse. The 21st century curse. Yeah, it is the curse.

[Josh Radner]

If only there was a way to simplify some of these big choices. What's one of the biggest choices you make in your life? One of the biggest purchases?

[Craig Thomas]

I would say. I don't know. Just off the top of my head. A car.

[Josh Radner]

Cars. Cars. That's exactly cars.

[Craig Thomas]

Plural.

[Josh Radner]

We are cars. Connected.

[Craig Thomas]

No, I really, there's. We're not looking at the same script for something or anything at all. We're just talking like friends do.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. But there is a way to streamline and simplify this whole crazy big car buying purchase experience. Let me introduce you to car gurus.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh boy. Have you met Cargurus? That's what we're doing. We're playing have you met Cargurus? And now we have. Thanks to you. You're solving life's problems.

[Josh Radner]

Making a big purchase, like buying a car, should come with confidence, not confusion. Cargurus helps you cut through the noise, showing you the best deals and in depth vehicle details so you can feel confident about your purchase. Because when it comes to your big deal, you deserve the best deal.

[Craig Thomas]

I think I do deserve it. Shopping for a car should be exciting, Josh, not exhausting. But between misleading prices and hidden fees, it can feel like a maze. That's true. That's where Cargurus comes in. They rank the best deals, verify dealers, and make sure you never pay more than you should. Your big deal just became a great deal.

[Josh Radner]

Cargurus will connect you with trusted dealerships when you're ready, ensuring a transparent and hassle free buying process. With over 4 million listings, CarGurus has more car listings than any other major online automotive marketplace in the US So you can find the best deal. Cargurus gives you the control to shop how you want to shop with the tools, information and data driven deal ratings you need.

[Craig Thomas]

It's no wonder similar web estimated traffic data Data. Data shows Cargurus is the number one most visited car shopping site. Buy or sell your next car today with cargurusargurus.com go to cargurus.com to make sure your big deal is the best deal. That's C-A-R-G-U R U S.com CarGurus.com.

[Josh Radner]

And now back to the show. I have a question for you. Was this in any way was Victoria's kind of premise of like, let's not exchange real names, let's not even. Let's just only have anticipation, let's leave. Was any of this influenced by the end of Before Sunrise, the first in the before trilogy, where at the end they say, let's not exchange information. Let's just meet back here in. What is it, a year? Like meet back on this train platform in a year. And then it's revealed in the second one that he showed up and she didn't. Not to spoil. If you haven't seen those, just, you can. They're still life without with that information. But I. It does feel like there's a kind of romantics idea of like, you know, screw the world in logistics. Like our hearts will lead us back to each other. Was some of that at play?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I think some of that was in there because we love those movies so much. By the way, welcome to our podcast, Ruining the ending of Richard Linklater films. We're gonna do Slacker next.

[Josh Radner]

Well, it actually ruins the beginning of one of them.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, no, but some of that was in there. I don't know how explicitly the actual thing of we're gonna almost kiss, but not kiss. I think Gloria Calderon Kellett lived this in her real life. I don't remember if she was with her husband to be who then became her husband, or if it was with somebody else. There was some circumstance where I think she and somebody else did this knowing that they shouldn't go any further for whatever reason. And I think it was sparked literally by something in real life. The whole sort of like, larger premise of the episode definitely relates to some of those big rom com swings. And that's that idea of like, let's meet up on the top in the Empire State Building a year from now. I forget what old that was. I'm completely blanking on what that one was. But for sure we were tapping into some of those kind of like big swing romantic comedy contrivances. Contrivances in the. In the best possible sense of the term.

[Josh Radner]

It strikes me that her.

[Craig Thomas]

Her.

[Josh Radner]

The offering she makes or the, The. The idea she has is on some level an incredibly, wildly romantic thing. It's saying the, the anticipation and the lead up to it, to whatever it is is always the best, least complicated part where it's only the promise of something where. Where there's a bit of like a wounded undertone of the whole thing is like, it gets messy after that. So she's in some ways trying to extract like, alchemy, like just pull the gold out of the thing, you know, and leave the lead for some other experience. Right. So it's. It's both romantic, but it's also evidence for. For both of them that they've been through it. You know what I mean? They're. They're really both trying to create a. Create circumstances where they don't have to deal with collateral damage. The shrapnel of things going wrong.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes, that's right. Baked into the cake is this is. Is the wounds that they've already gotten. And they're only like in their late 20s, which is interesting. It does add kind of like without saying it, it adds kind of this gravitas to the whole. To the. To the. All the proceedings that follow. And they're. They're avoiding heartbreak by needing this one good thing. The problem is the morning after when they wanted to keep knowing each other.

[Josh Radner]

The mind is constantly on the hunt for ease and frictionlessness. No problems, zero effort. And the universe is always like, yeah, that's not how it works. That's simply not how it works. Like, you're going to have to. You're going to have to step in it, you know?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. It feels like a slight corollary to, like, cheating on the test is sort of as much work as just studying for the test. You know what I mean?

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Like, you can't.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Like it's going to get you one way or the other.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

So we actually have a question on this topic. You know, we're not going to be doing a. General questions.

[Josh Radner]

General questions.

[Craig Thomas]

Fine.

[Josh Radner]

Good.

[Craig Thomas]

Well done episode.

But I did get a great question just on this topic of the. Of the kiss. And by the way, for in a couple weeks, we'll do another general questions and we'll collect your questions from this one. General questions. So please hold on to your general questions. General questions for this episode. Thank you very much. And here is one from a fan.

[Ashley Williams]

Okay. Hi, everybody. It's Ashley Williams. I played Victoria on the show How I Met yout Mother. Listen, I just got word that you're gonna be watching. Drumroll, please. Now, confession When I got that information that you were going to be watching. Drumroll please. I was like, wait, there's also an episode called the Wedding, which is drumroll and which is the Wedding, because aren't they both the Wedding? Anyway, hopefully now that you've watched, you deciphered. That was, I believe, my first episode of the show. Unless it was the Wedding.

[Craig Thomas]

Which one's the Wedding?

[Ashley Williams]

Can I get an assistant? Anyway, Alec just said, do you have any questions for them? Did anybody else feel like it was like a little intense that she said no kissing?

[Craig Thomas]

Right?

[Ashley Williams]

Like, I disagree. Oh, the moment before the kiss is great. Kiss. Why couldn't they have kissed? Kept their eyes closed, separated, then oh boy, am I wrong?

[Craig Thomas]

Disgust.

Oh my God, we love Ashley so much. Just seeing her face made me happy.

Here's Ashley's dedication to this. She's in Bulgaria right now. And we were emailing about her eventual visit here. And I said, we are recording this in one hour. I'm sorry, I only thought of this right now. Would you mind asking a question? And she's like, absolutely.

So that just came in. That's hot off the presses.

Hot off the presses.

[Josh Radner]

That is unbelievable. What a treat. Thanks for that.

[Craig Thomas]

Pure joy. The best.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, you know what? She's so right. Like, drumroll, please. Could have been the one before and then the wedding could.

[Craig Thomas]

The titles are confusing, by the way. Just to say the wedding should have been called plus one. Oh, I was watching the Wedding and I'm like, there's a billion fucking things that could be called the wedding. The whole debate, the whole symposium is did check. Did Ted check plus one?

[Josh Radner]

That's right. That's right.

[Craig Thomas]

It should have been called plus one. I'm just gonna. Every few episodes, I'm just gonna regretfully.

[Josh Radner]

Say, you know what I think, you know how they say that? You know, our questions reveal about it. Like, I think we just learned, like, Ashley loves kissing. She loves kissing. She doesn't care about the lead up. She likes the main event.

[Craig Thomas]

This is either neutral or a compliment to you. It's definitely not bad. She was either open to wanting to kiss you or really wanted to kiss you.

[Josh Radner]

But it's, it's also funny that we're in a, a time in whatever human history where not kissing is considered kind of like radical. Like, you know, like in, in, you know, old timey things, like a knees touching under the table.

[Craig Thomas]

Right?

[Josh Radner]

We're just charged with so much erotic energy because it was like you, you wouldn't be touching, you wouldn't be, you know, holding Hands. Like these things that historically have been like big leaps are now just, I don't know, just a good night out, you know?

[Craig Thomas]

Totally. I mean, look, it isn't. She has this master plan. It is a little bit intense, but I think the answer to the question is what we were just talking about before Ashley's clip, which is there's some wounds behind that thing. Right. She's like, she's acknowledging that maybe that she has. And she assumes Ted has rushed into some shit that has ended, that has ruined whatever magic began. Began that spark. And she says, can we. Should we just preserve like this, like, precious little flame in our hands, like a Jack London short story? Like, can we just preserve this one little thing just to keep us hopeful, moving forward in life, and then we'll never change. It's an intense idea, but it's born of act. It's born of some sort of a scar, you know?

[Josh Radner]

Right. But also, you know, there's a lot of talk about Barney loving good stories and Barney always trying to create the stories, but Ted's a lover of a good story from a different angle. And this is like, when she pro. When she suggests this, it's kind of like, all right, like, I'll try, like, I'll try anything once, you know, like, and I think, like, Ted is always. He's always a little bit like, his first impulse is to act cooler than he actually is, which is, you know, with like, like with Robin in purple giraffe. Like, I can. I can be chill, you know, I can not care. My heart be unengaged. I'm just a dude. But then he's like, oh, no. Like, I really, you know. Yeah, you know, he's got a little bit of a. Like, you know, what's better than a little bit of a good thing? Is a lot of a good thing, you know, and also, I think, you know, we. We love. I think, leaving like a little trace of something, like, you know, to spoil the ending. I mean, if you've. If you're listening to this, we assume you've watched.

[Craig Thomas]

We have to at least be able to spoil the ending of the episode we're talking about.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, but there's something about Victoria's. Thank God. That is so great. It's such a good ending to an episode.

[Craig Thomas]

Like, it feels like I find myself very moved by that moment.

[Josh Radner]

Very, very.

[Craig Thomas]

There's something very deeply moving about that moment.

[Josh Radner]

And also, like the subtle thing of Ted putting on the bleach stained sweatshirt. Yeah, I love that, you know, is such a cool Move. Because it's like he is suiting up for her. Like, it's his.

[Craig Thomas]

That's his suiting up.

[Josh Radner]

But also her, thank God. Is almost like, I left you just enough breadcrumbs to find me. Yeah, you know.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, totally.

[Josh Radner]

Like, by the way, good.

[Craig Thomas]

Good metaphor for a baker. Breadcrumbs. Well, planter. That's right.

[Josh Radner]

That' I left just enough powdered sugar trail for you to find it. But it feels like. It feels like it's also evidence of his cleverness and his listening. Right. Like he was able to Sherlock his way towards her.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah. And coming in so unadorned. The opposite of the bravado that, like, Barney would exhibit. Right. Barney's like, my suit says everything about me, Ted saying, I wanna show you who I really am. And who you seem to wanna see the real me in the Stan Sweat sweatshirt. And there's something. So after this night where they're in tuxedos and wedding dresses and whatnot, the next day to come in without any armor at all, he'd do the literal opposite. Barney, he's suited down. He literally. Barney says suit up. Dead suits down. And there's something so sweet about that.

[Josh Radner]

It also feels like this whole evening, somewhat Ted engineers it, but also, it's. The fate is on his side, at least in this night. Because I imagine. And this is where there is a little overlap with me and Ted. Like, I was not at a wedding or any party unless I was really on something. But I was never at the center of the dance floor going crazy. I was always hoping to. And not even in a romantic context. Like, my favorite moments of parties are, like, when you fall into that great conversation in the corner. You know, you can really be. You can really go deep and kind of, like, be off to the side. And this is a whole evening of that for him. He falls in with this woman who's just a great. I mean, she's clearly, like, witty and funny and she seems to share a kind of romantic ideal with him. It's perfect. I mean, it's a. Mosby. Could not have scripted this better. In some ways, you know, the universe is giving you. And even the. You know, I think even though we long for ease and we long for frictionlessness, what we actually want is just enough struggle so that we get to the other side of it. And it feels great, you know? So I think that's why the ending is so satisfying. Like, he had to sleuth his way back to her.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radner]

And her relief at seeing him and his relief at Seeing her, and now we can finally kiss. It's almost like they. They really earned it, you know?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think she made Ted earn it. Right. She's kind of laid down some gauntlets and some obstacles and, like, if you can trace this breadcrumb path and do these things and kind of show me your. Like, show me you're worthy of me. And he proves himself worthy. It's really kind of a hero's journey in this episode. And Ted is so undaunted by any of it. I find Ted not to. I don't want to create an unsafe workplace for you here, Josh, but I find Ted very sexy in this episode.

[Josh Radner]

Let's just say he's got a lot of swag. We need to say he's got a.

[Craig Thomas]

Lot of, like, confident swagger in this one. I was. I was watching this one. Like, Ted's got some fucking game in this one. Like, very. Just. Yes. And very, like, completely. She. Nothing she's throwing down has thrown him off. And he is very. He's, like, confident the whole way. It's great. It's like he let go of this idea of he was going to take Robin to the wedding in the part one of this. He's let go of this. What it has to be. And he finds this woman who lays down this whole new series of challenges. And Ted's like, yep, what's next? You know what I mean? I really like that.

[Josh Radner]

I would argue that maybe Ted is, like, at least in these early episodes, like, he's like, 83% smooth, to use a percentage. That. That is famously how I met your mother. He's 83% smooth. And then there's this 17% where he can't stop.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

His MOS being the I love you comes in, like, the thing that he. He, he. It's almost like he needs to work on impulse control. He. It's like the famous study of, like, delayed gr. You know, with the kids and the cookies and everything. Like, he. He still needs some remedial work on that. But it's also funny, like, when you say, you know, it's like this mythic challenge, like, I imagine speaking of college courses on how I met your mothers, didn't someone say at the limo they did, like, a paper on gender roles in 2000s comedies? There's something, you know, you have so many. Are they called boons? Like, the object that you have to.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah. Like in the Hero's Journey. Yeah, I think so.

[Josh Radner]

I know what you mean.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

So there is something like, you guys are creating a contemporary myth.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. You know, yeah, she's right. She's up in the castle. She's up. She's. It really is like Ted has to find his way up to this. The damsel, like, there is something very.

[Josh Radner]

She makes herself untouchable. There's also something about romantic comedies where I've heard that it's harder to write romantic comedies now. And this kind of goes back to what we were talking about, like Victorian, you know, eyes across the room or fingertips touching was so hot and so laden with subtext and all this stuff. But now that people are just allowed to. Allowed, you know, you know, times have changed. You meet up, you. You're attracted to them. You either. You sleep with them, you don't sleep with. It doesn't. There's not a lot of roadblocks. But romantic comedies are all about what's in the way of the couples getting together.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. Sometimes it's. It's part of their character. Sometimes it's like their fiance is in the way.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Or people have created like. Like distance. You know, Sleepless in Seattle is all like, they're in different areas of, you know, so it feels like you guys writing this classic, but also at the time, like, fresh take on the romantic comedy you have to create. So it's like what I would say to Ashley, as. As lovely and hilarious as her observation is, is, well, why does she do that? So we have a good 22 minute episode of television, you know, to create an obstacle. To create an obstacle. So it does feel a little strange by our standard. But also, like, when everyone's doing one thing, there can be a lot that you discover by doing going the opposite direction.

[Craig Thomas]

Totally. Here's my question about Victoria at that wedding. First of all, is it plausible that a baker is there at the wedding the whole time? Second, if the baker of the wedding cake was there, the one thing they should do is be there to cut and serve the cake and like, oversee that part of it. Victoria fucking bails on that so hard. She disappears from the wedding. They come back, the wedding's over, the cake's gone. I say that Victoria a little bit had one job at that wedding and she blew it. She was. She kind of went off on a whole other narrative. And I kind of love that. But it really caught my eye this time.

[Josh Radner]

Every single episode, you could say, like, this is the narrative, like, trick we pulled. Or like, this shouldn't have been. By all logical standards, this makes no sense. But again, you're trying, you're rigging the mystery. Right. Like, it's a really great moment when Claudia says there was no one named Victoria at my wedding.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh my God. There's so many good moments, little twists along the way. I think the best time at Mother episodes are mini mysteries within this larger series mystery of how does Ted find this woman and have these kids and what is Ted's future? How does he get there? It's a larger writ large. It is this enormous arcing decade long mystery kind of. But the DNA, the little ingredients of it are themselves these little mysteries. A lot of the best ones, Pineapple incident. This one I love. All the twists and turns. I love. There's no Victoria at this wedding. I love. And the reveal that Robin did actually come to the wedding is a great twist and heartbreaking and really tells you a lot all at once. And then it becomes about that. And you didn't see that coming. I really liked that twist this time.

[Josh Radner]

Well, you guys, I think we're really masterful at the like withholding information, you.

[Craig Thomas]

Know, deciding how to dole it out. Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

And creating some sense of disorientation that ultimately gets solved. So even though you were teasing the audience with this long nine year mystery within each episode or many episodes, you could almost like do a thing on like different classifications of episodes. Like, like mystery. You could, you could say like, there are a bunch of how I met other episodes that are almost like just proper mysteries.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

You know, architect is a.

[Craig Thomas]

There's a lot of them. There's like every third episode is like some version of that. Every fifth one anyway.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. So you do get the narrative satisfaction of like a smaller scale mystery solved.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

I think it's really fun.

[Craig Thomas]

It's really fun. And when you realize that Claudia, who knows every inch of this wedding, does not recognize the name Victoria, that's a great. This has good act breaks.

[Josh Radner]

But would she also not know the name of the baker?

[Craig Thomas]

I know, I know. I had a little bit of that moment too. There's a few buys in here. Stuart and Claudia being their best friends all of a sudden just for this one, these two episodes. Victoria. Yeah. There's a few byes.

[Josh Radner]

Also, isn't one of the first things you say at a wedding, are you here for the bride or the groom or how are you here?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, they probably would have covered this, but they did agree to this kind of clandestine, like we're not going to give each other too much information or conte. So I do. I guess you can buy it.

[Josh Radner]

And this old man, he must admit he fell in love with you New York City.

[Craig Thomas]

And now commercials. Josh, I have a question for you.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, Craig, I hope I can answer.

[Craig Thomas]

I know you can because you're into meditation. You've been known to meditate. Am I correct about this?

[Josh Radner]

It's one of the things I'm known for.

[Craig Thomas]

You are known for it.

[Josh Radner]

The world around my meditation prowess. I'm one of the. I'm one of the great meditators. It's really.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, no, because it is about the competition aspect.

[Josh Radner]

It's the. The competition aspect is why I got into meditation. Yes. Yes. I've triumphed the world over.

[Craig Thomas]

Do you ever watch it on espn? Espn?

[Josh Radner]

The Meditation Championships?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah. It's really good.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. Yeah. I. I think if they think threw me in there, I could, I could. I could at least metal.

[Craig Thomas]

You'd metal bronze, maybe.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. Well, I've been. I've been a meditator for a long time. It's helped me so much. If you're anything like me, you've got a. A loud, noisy mind with intrusive thoughts that sometimes, you know, offer up the least helpful. What's the opposite of a pep talk? Sometimes that's. That's my mind. So meditation just helps me quiet down those voices and just reconnect with my center. You know, like the. The part of me that's the witness. The part of me that's just watching things rather than, you know, sitting by the bank of the river watching it roll by, rather than getting. Holding on a log and being dragged over rocks.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, that's a really good way to put it. And vivid. What. What can help us? What? For people on the go, for people who are trying to figure it out on the fly. What do we do?

[Josh Radner]

Well, we. We here at How. How We Made youe Mother Recommend, the Headspace app. You don't have to go to. To a monastery in the mountains. You don't have to go to a week or two week long retreat right in your pocket. They have thousands of meditations of varying lengths. You can do a few moments to recharge, a couple minutes. You can do longer meditations. The. The options are endless. And it's really a perfect app for people on the go, which means everyone.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And a little bit goes such a long way, you think you don't have time for it. But even like a few minutes can make a difference. And then if you have more time, do it for more time. But like, anything makes a difference is what I find.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. And if you've been meditating for a long time or you're very new, you can find a meditation to match wherever you're at, which is really exciting. So here's what we say. Feel good and mean it when you say it. For a limited time, get headspace free for 60 days. Go to headspace.com yourmother that's H E A-S-P-A C E.com yourmother to unlock all of headspace free for 60 days. Headspace.com yourmother.

[Craig Thomas]

Now. Josh. I don't get stopped on the street often for any reason really. Although I did recently get recognized for the podcast. Somebody that watches the podcast on YouTube recognized me in a store. But that doesn't relate to the story. But it was thrilling. It was thrilling. And then I was like, please respect my privacy. I was a real. I was a real jerk about it. Yeah, yeah.

[Josh Radner]

You went through every round of being a celebrity, like every stage of being a celebrity in like 30 seconds in this one interaction.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah. No, but I really did get stopped. And this is a true story. This is, is. This is a Vessi true story. A Vessi shoe based. True story. I was walking my daughter to school and some. Some guy who looks kind of like my stunt double, like another sort of exhausted dad with a young. With a young daughter, and he's like, I like those shoes. And he points to my Vessi shoes and he's like, those are cool. Because it looks like you could like walk your daughter to school, walk your dog, which is what I was doing. He's like, but you could, like, put on, like a. Dress those up a little bit, put on a blazer you could wear a mount to. I was like. And I basically did an ad for Vessi to this one guy on the street.

[Josh Radner]

Was this the same guy who recognized you from the podcast?

[Craig Thomas]

It was not. It was not.

[Josh Radner]

Oh, oh. So you got. Your face got recognized and then your shoes got complimented.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, it was. I wish I could say it was all the same day, because that would have been a great day. But no, this was. This was entirely shoe based. This guy had no idea who I was. And I basically performed this, what we're doing right now for him, one on one.

[Josh Radner]

Very exciting. You know, it's been raining, raining, raining in New York City. And I'm getting a lot of mileage out of my Vessi raincoat.

[Craig Thomas]

That is a very stylish and breathable light, great raincoat. And these shoes are also breathable light. Very easy to put on and off. I'm so lazy. I love how easy they are to put on and off and they are waterproof with all the rain. So that's our little Vessi story. Listen guys, here's the other thing we're going to say about it. Make every day a little easier. Visit vessi.comyourmother now for 15% off your first pair at checkout and start exploring with confidence. Embrace every journey, rain or shine. End of commercials. Back to show. Boy, you just to talk for a second about Ashley again. Like first of all she comes on and there's like a 20 second clip of her and like your day is better. Just even see she's one of those people. Like you see her, you hear her voice, your day is just a little bit better. You guys had such a great connection right away. And of course we wanted the audience to think this could be the mother. Right? We didn't dispel, we didn't confirm or deny that we made people wait two weeks back when these episodes used to be every Monday and not all at once to figure out who she was. What's your memory of like you get thrown into this like one of Ted's greatest rom com outings, I think, right? The wedding plus Drumroll. That hour is one of the best TED romantic comedy kind of its own mini little movie. How did you feel? How did you and Ashley. Like you knew Ashley a little bit, right? How did you guys connect? How did you feel working with her like this? Like in this very intense way all of a sudden?

[Josh Radner]

I think the charm and the ease one feels watching her as Victoria, you know, the kind of open. There's like a silliness to her, like in the best kind of way. Like a kind of like she can be both sincere and such a goofball, which is so charming. And I think, I don't know, I immediately felt like this allyship with her. I felt like, oh, this is a great both addition to the cast for the story we're telling. And also just like a really great person to be in the trenches with. I mean she, she had done a lot of stuff and she knew the drill. I think like, I think sitcom acting is deceptively hard.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

I think, I think the best ones make it look quite easy. It's like it's. That's part of the trick of it is that totally it looks kind of easy. But I remember feeling especially in Drumroll like I remember reading Drumroll and being like, oh yeah, this is, this is a good, this is a good one for Ted. Yeah, yeah, this is really good. And I liked Getting to be heroic romantically. I thought, like, if I'm asked to do one big thing in this show, it's to be like a romantic hero. Like, be a hero for open hearted, sincere, vulnerable dudes everywhere who really want to meet someone and. And go for it, you know, And. And I think it was an untapped market, like, by. By the evidence of many men and women saying, I relate to Ted so much.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

You know?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

So I think you guys really hit on an archetype that had been kind of unexplored, because I think they're. The idea was in. In culture, like, most men are like Barney. Like, they just, you know, the, you know, the old ball and chain. I don't want to be, you know, I'd rather be out with the boys or I'd rather be, you know, meeting someone. And I think you. You guys just wrote this guy that I helped bring to life with you that was a different breed, but. But really way more common than we realized. And I. I also remember as the scenes wore on, like, I remember, like, when the bow tie kind of came untied, like, I felt really like I was both as a character, like, really dropped into the moment, very relaxed in a kind of like, young Richard Gere kind of way, you know, like, it just felt like, easy. And Ashley has that thing of, like, if she's supposed to be attracted to you, you feel attractive. You know what I mean? Like, she's got that, like, generous quality as an actress where she's helping you. You know, she's really playing along. She laughs at your jokes in just the right way. That makes you feel like, you know what? I'm pretty funny, you know? And you're like, I don't know if that's Victoria or Ashley, but it's making me feel good. So.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, totally.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. I thought she was. I mean, I couldn't imagine anyone else playing the role. She was fantastic. And she was always just a delight to have on set. She was always. She's one of those actors that always look, like, delighted to be there.

[Craig Thomas]

You know, she has that twinkle in her eye. She just has that thing. It's just like a little bit magic. It kind of can't be faked or learned or practiced. She has that.

[Josh Radner]

And also just a shout out. She's been showing up for these Paul Grossfield events for years to help us raise money.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I know. I wanted to point that out, too. All these years later, we do these. Our band, the Solids, we did the How Much yout Mother theme Song. And like Carter and I, it's Carter my band. And we wrote a lot of the silly songs. How Much Mother? And we do a charity fundraiser concert every year. The past few years. We're going to keep doing it. I will very much plug it on this show. It'll be some months away, the next one. But Ashley always comes out and does the song on this. We did Victoria by the King, which we use later in the series. Spoilers. Ashley, you can tell by how much we love her. She comes back later. If you're watching the show for the first time, sorry, but I'm not sorry because you get more Ashley and so you're welcome. And so she comes out and she has such pride for having been part of How Much yout Mother. And she's such an open hearted, amazing person that she loves to help raise money for this good cause that the cause is to do research into congenital heart conditions for pediatric. Basically kids like my son who had open heart surgery or had any kind of congenital heart defect. This is money raising money to do research into that. And she just like, she shows up, she flies from LA to New York to be part of the concert. Josh has done every one of them too. Thank you, Josh. And she's one of those people. She's just one of those people. Going back to the scene of you guys playing at the piano. I was just gonna say when you guys. When we're talking about your guys chemistry, I loved the moment because she is so confident, right? She is the ringmaster of this. She has laid down the rules of this game. We're not going to kiss. We're only going to drumroll. We're not going to tell each other any more information than these first names which only reluctantly got spilled because of Barney saying Ted 5,000 times, which is so funny.

[Josh Radner]

And also his insistence on saying it over and over.

[Craig Thomas]

So funny. And. But then there's this moment, the first time you guys almost kiss at that piano. Which also it's funny because all of a sudden Ted's great at piano. I don't know if we ever showed Ted being great at piano ever again. There's a lot of like weird little bi's. But that moment where you guys almost kiss and she kind of pulls away, pulls back from fully kissing and she looks so, for just one moment, very helpless, very like she's under Ted's thrall there for a minute. She's gone a little bit past where she meant to go and she plays it in this great moment and you realize she's been playing the whole thing so in control up to that moment. And then she flips it in that moment, she shows that she's also vulnerable.

[Josh Radner]

She's not running the signal.

[Craig Thomas]

That was totally the signal.

[Josh Radner]

That was the signal.

[Craig Thomas]

I love how she played that moment. That is like a great.

[Josh Radner]

I also love. It's kind of like that great thing of like, use what's in the room. Right. He's on the piano. But when she says something about not kissing him, he hits all the bass notes. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God. That was so funny.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

That was such a great moment. Yeah. That was a laugh out loud from my wife Rebecca watching now. Rebecca loves this two parter too. And I think was like, this is a good Ted one. You guys are gonna have fun talking about this one. She laughed out loud at the minor chord moment there.

[Josh Radner]

Alec, let's play Jordana's. This is of course, a section where we're calling questions and observations from a clinical psychologist who's never seen how I met and also happens to be married to Josh.

[Jordana]

I felt like this episode was some sort of turning point in the show for me. Halfway through, I said to Josh, I'm suddenly feeling very attached to these characters. I was laughing harder at the jokes. Certain moments were tugging at the heartstrings more deeply. And later I was reflecting on why that might be. And I think for me, it's because it's the first episode where Robyn showed real vulnerability. It's almost like I couldn't be fully in. I couldn't fully fall for this love story until she did. This is the first time we see her cry. We see that she really feels what Ted is feeling too. And the title drum roll, please. Which, you know, we think is about the anticipation between Victoria and Ted. I actually think on a deeper level is about Ted and Robin and their long, drawn out drum roll and the audience staying in that anticipation with them for many, many years. But I'm curious if you also felt like this was some sort of turning point for the show. If you felt like it was this episode that really hooked people, and if so, why?

[Craig Thomas]

That's a great question. I love that you pointed out the ramen of it all. Cause we haven't talked that much about that. It happens later in the episode, but the reveal that Robin went to the wedding and saw Ted and Victoria seemingly kissing. Of course, she didn't know they were gonna pull up at the last minute from actually kissing and then cried in the bathroom. I totally. Jordana, that's a great point because Seeing her in tears in that bathroom stall is a huge pivot point for the Robin and Ted of it all and so many other things. It lays groundwork for so many other things that are gonna happen that season and in the series. And it's true, we haven't seen Robin exhibit that amount of vulnerability and feeling. And it made me surprise. It's a great moment. Cause it seems to surprise her, too. I think Coby plays this great thing of, like, what's happening? She's like a robot crying. She's like, what are these crazy. Why is there water coming out of my eyes? And I love that moment, too. I think Joannana's very astute to say that was a moment that hooked you in deeper to the larger Robin and Ted story.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. It also. I mean, I agree. I could feel when Robin enters, it lifts this from, like, a charming kind of episode of television to, like, a real heartfelt episode. Because it's like, I remember someone in grad school, I think when I was in grad school at nyu, it was something like we were all standing in a circle, and it was like, you're in love with the per. You're facing the back of the PR and someone's looking at your back, and it was like, you're in love with the person whose back you're staring at. And it was like, that's every Chekhov play. It's like everyone's in love with someone who's not in love with them. And it feels like, you know, the. I think there's a phenomenon that is not coined, or I don't know the phrase for it, but it's when someone knows someone is in love with someone or someone has feelings for it, they're not going to be with the person necessarily. They don't want to maybe be with the person, but they enjoy basking in that affection, that kind of affectionate light.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

And if that person removes that focus and light and shines it elsewhere, that person's like, wait a minute. Where did you go?

[Craig Thomas]

You know?

[Josh Radner]

So I think there's something interesting about Robyn kind of, you know, keeping Ted at arm's length. She's dating other people, but clearly she's sitting at that bar at McLaren. She's got to catch him looking over at her and, I'll get you another drink. You know, he's got a bit of a. He's really trying to be the guy for her. And the moment she sees him with a beautiful woman at a wedding, that's not her. This rush of, like, feeling comes out. That I think really takes her by surprise. And I'm not saying Robin is the type who's like, oh, I just want Ted to be my puppy dog all the time. I think she really genuinely realizes in that moment, oh, I like. I do like this guy. I'm terrified of commitment. I'm terrified of breaking hearts and getting heartbroken, but at the same time, I'm having an emotional response to this, and it's really taken me by surprise.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And I think that sort of power flip in that moment is really interesting in their dynamic. Right. Because she's doing for her a grand romantic gesture, her showing up in that dress, running there after her, like, big moment host, you know, anchoring the 11pm news. This is a huge career thing for her. She's always said career comes first, but she bolts out of that experience to go catch up with Ted. That's a huge gesture. That's a holding up a blue French horn gesture for Robin. And when she gets there and she's missed him, she's missed some window of opportunity, she literally sees him moving on from her, quite literally in real time in front of her eyes. It really hits her. It really hits her. And Cobi played that so beautifully.

[Josh Radner]

I do think the bathroom stall scene between the two of them is just a beautiful thing. I also. I also was like, this episode is smashing the Bechdel test. Do you know what the Bechdel test is?

[Craig Thomas]

Yes, I do.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radner]

So it's where you have two female characters, both of whose name the audience knows, having a conversation. Oh, I guess maybe it doesn't because they're talking about.

[Craig Thomas]

I was worried. I was wondering where you're going with it. Because they're talking about a guy.

[Josh Radner]

They are talking about a guy. But not. But they're not. They're talking around it. Right?

[Craig Thomas]

They're talking around it.

[Josh Radner]

They're not talking about a guy. She's just trying to comfort her.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And Victoria's showing what a good person she is in comforting this woman. She has no idea what's wrong with Robin. And Robin's now realizing, shit, not only is Ted about to kiss this woman, this woman is really a warm hearted, caring person, too.

[Josh Radner]

Do you know the actress Aya Cash? Do you know who?

[Craig Thomas]

No, I don't think so.

[Josh Radner]

I've done a bunch of stuff with her. She's really brilliant and funny. Her mom is a poet. Quite a well known, well regarded poet. And she has a poem. Maybe we could put this poem in the show notes, Alec. It's called to the woman crying uncontrollably in the stall next to me.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, man. I think I've read this poem.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. And it's almost the exact premise. Just like, you know, it's a little pep talk to a woman crying in the stall. But I don't know. I mean, do they talk necessarily about Ted? I think it's more like. I don't know. I think she's putting her.

[Craig Thomas]

It's just the moment. Yeah. They're not talking about Ted. Yeah, no, it's a nice moment. That's that. And they never see each other, and she just sees the shoes. In fact, I have a prod. Hang on one second. I have a bra.

[Josh Radner]

Oh, okay.

[Craig Thomas]

We're watching it, and we see. And I was like, I love that thing where you just see her shoes. And Rebecca, my wife, gets up and walks into her. Into the bedroom to her jewelry thing, and comes back and holds up this. Which is exactly what was on the snowflake from Victoria's shoes. I was like, how do you have that? She's like, you're costume designer. I was, like, complimenting it during that shoot day. And they were like, well, we're done with it. It's all shot. Why don't you take this? So she has this as, like, a little pendant. So I have this little snowflake from Victoria's shoe that you see.

[Josh Radner]

It's a great moment when. When Barney's like, he's a dude. He's not going to know what kind of shoes she wore. But it's also, like, it's not because Ted is, like, into female shoes. It's because she literally handed them to him, you know?

[Craig Thomas]

Yes. There was no. There was no fetish required there.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

But, yeah, it's a great. It's all a mystery. It's all clues, Right? It's all mystery and clues. Robin has to fill in this other part of the mystery. We had no idea Robin was even there. But she's the. She is the door to the final. The. The final port of the video game.

[Josh Radner]

Much like Ted will sacrifice his own needs and wants to make Robin happy. I don't think she actually does it, but she is right about to. I know who this woman is, and I can tell you where. You know what I mean? Like, she knew she was the baker, right? Yeah. So she was going to put Ted's, you know, desires and happiness above her own, the same way that Ted has done that repeatedly so far in the show.

[Craig Thomas]

It's so bittersweet and yet sweet and it's really nice. I like not knowing what she's gonna say to Ted when she's, like, going down to the bar. It's great suspense. Which way is she gonna go with it? Lily trying to push her towards Ted Romyn, ultimately. Ultimately doing the right thing or what she thinks is the right thing. Trying to do what's best for Ted, because Robin knows she's. You know, she's still Robin. She's still confused.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. I had a couple of other observations and things I loved about the episode. Can I just run through them?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, man.

[Josh Radner]

Was that a picture of Gloria Calderon Callett on the show?

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, I wanted to call everybody out. That was a picture of a whole bunch of people, including me and Rebecca. You catch that one? That's me and her. That's my wedding picture.

[Josh Radner]

Gloria.

[Craig Thomas]

I know it sort of goes by and you're like, oh, it's stock photos. Your brain goes to sleep for a second. But, no, those are almost awesome. I don't remember every single one of them, but mostly, How I Met a Mother establishes Michael Shea and his wife. You see, Stu Halpern's husband Adam is there at their wedding, and Stu is our post producer. Myself and Rebecca are our wedding photo. One of our wedding photos is there. And, God, there's a couple others that I'm now feeling bad that I'm blanking on who they were, but Gloria and Dave. Gloria and her husband Dave are Gloria, the writer of this episode, who did a great job in this episode.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, that was really. That was really fun. Yeah, it's fun. It's fun when you're in the show. Like, I think. I think part of the Cirque. Remember I said the Cirque and the riff.

[Craig Thomas]

The circ and the riff. I was thinking.

[Josh Radner]

I think the Cirque is. There's a shot of the Cirque in, like, the first episode. Like. Like, there's a series of photographs. I think the Cirque made an appearance, but I noticed this thing. Well, I like it when. When you're doing a show and you can actually put things in that are just literally Easter eggs for you. They're. They're for no one else. Or for the friend who gets to be in a movie or a TV show. I liked when I think it's Lily who said, like, come on, it's for a good cause. Or they're talking to Barney, like, call her. Like, it's for a good cause.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

And there's something about Lily and Marshall especially, like, getting Ted paired off is like, Part of their life's work. Like, this is, like, this is part of their, like, sacred duty on the earth. Like, we gotta get to that front porch. Like, with a person, with a woman we like. And this is very important for all of us.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radner]

This is a group project. They're all in on it, right?

[Craig Thomas]

It's a group project. It totally is. And Lily's, like, the leader of that project. Yes. And Marshall just wants to know who made that cake, Which I love to play as, like, sort of a very stupid little runner, but actually is the actual piece of information. It seems like such a stupid thing. Like, he's just a guy who wants to eat this delicious cake. And I love how religiously devoted he's become to this cake. But in the end, it actually is a huge plot point. It is the one and only plot point of the whole episode.

[Josh Radner]

And the fact that she's the one who made that cake even recruits him more. We have to go find this woman.

[Craig Thomas]

Gotta marry. This is the one. Yes. I'll eat this cake forever on that front porch if we just marry her.

[Josh Radner]

Another martial line I loved. Or Ikter.

[Craig Thomas]

It's probably not Iktor. That made me laugh out loud. That was a laugh out loud moment. This episode has a lot of good ones. There's a lot of good moments in this episode. Episode. I know the wedding gets a little shorter shrift because it's kind of like it's the drum roll up to drumroll, please. It's sort of the work you have to do to then have the fun part of the rollercoaster ride, which is this one. But boy, as an hour, what a good one.

[Josh Radner]

Well, the wedding has more narrative propulsion in a weird way.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Well, there's a wedding is like, it just goes. It has an accelerated kind of thing. And drumroll has a little more of a. Well, let's stop rowing here and sit. Sit on the side of the river for a minute and say something funny and then get back in. But there's something also about morning afters that always have, like, some really funny stuff in the show.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And constructing the mystery of what happened.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. I love that. Obviously, we talked about this in the last episode, but Lily saying happiness is not that difficult, which we both agreed is. Is both smart and sensible and also a little bit young. Because it is. Yeah, it is. Yeah. And they. And they hit their own rapids up ahead. You know.

[Craig Thomas]

They do.

[Josh Radner]

More than a few times.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. I really like that. Because I like that we showed a couple that actually loves each other and they're not like the Bickersons, as they say. They're not like the TV couple. It's always fighting, which is a real trope on tv, especially at the time when the show premiered. There was a lot of those. And I'm proud that we didn't do that. But I'm also proud that we showed that a couple that young might. They might think they've got it all figured out. But if you keep watching, you'll see.

[Josh Radner]

We'Re not going to be one of those couple.

[Craig Thomas]

You see them go do some shit, too, because it will find us all.

[Josh Radner]

Another Alyson Hannigan moment that I really loved. When she finally gets Robin to admit she has feelings for Ted. And I think Robin says, are you happy now? And Ally just says, a little. Yeah, a little.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. What is it that she's doing in that moment that's so magical? That's one of those moments for me, too. There's something you can't teach that in acting, right? That's like.

[Josh Radner]

No, she has a bunch of those in season one, which are just like. They're just little adorable throwaways that couldn't be better. Like, they just couldn't be better than.

[Craig Thomas]

And no one else could do it exactly the way she did it. I don't know what. There's that. That is. That is the. The ineffable. Yeah, the ineffable thing. The thing that is just. You can't. You can't put your finger on it. Just magic. It's. Yeah. All of you guys. I love all of you guys equally.

[Josh Radner]

When does Marshall say, baby? What are you talking about? Like, he said it, like, really in anger.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. He screams it like a crazy person. It's when he thinks they're gonna not go try to find the cake. Victoria. Yeah. Because he wants to find the cake.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

He's angry that he thinks they're not gonna go.

[Josh Radner]

That was. That was one of those Jason lines that. On the page, I don't think it was read.

[Craig Thomas]

It doesn't play like a joke. Really.

[Josh Radner]

No, but it plays like he just did it like. Like he's in a Scorsese movie. He's just. There's just so much passion, Thousand percent commitment to that. I like the.

[Craig Thomas]

Ted's in the middle of a big speech, and Barney goes, crapper, get off the pot. That was great.

[Josh Radner]

We'll get to that in a second. But one of my other favorite. This. This is one of my favorite Ted lines, and it's a real throwaway. You have to listen for it of season one. You've been busting my apple bag all week.

[Craig Thomas]

I'm so glad you brought this up. I was afraid I was going to forget to mention that one.

[Josh Radner]

I love it. It's like, hot top, bro. Like, it's just. I don't know why, it just delights me, you know, it's not a phrase that's like was in the culture at that time.

[Craig Thomas]

No, it was in the culture in 1850.

[Josh Radner]

He says it like, I don't know, it sounds like newsies or something.

[Craig Thomas]

I have this memory that that was one of our writers, Chris Marle.

[Josh Radner]

Oh, of course. Wait, was he the one who wore the pork by hat or the other one?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, he did. He sort of felt old timey in his way. Chris Marshall. And I think he would enjoy that characterization because he, that was his style. He always wore like these suits and like, had like. Yeah. Vests. And he looked, he looked sort of like a southern gentleman on route to the Kentucky Derby.

[Josh Radner]

And his writing partner looked like a writer in Hollywood.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, just a writer in Hollywood. Just like a dude. Yeah, they were a great duo. Really funny dudes. I think they write on what we do in shadows now. They're really good writers. At some point, Alec, we gotta do the like, the full alumni list of like, these are the other things. All the. How I met some other writers did. We're so proud of how amazing the combined credits all are. But they're really funny. I had this feeling like that was from Chris because he sort of exists. In an earlier era, he sort of exists and he sort of just threw that out there. And everyone in the writers room was like, like, what the is that phrase? No one's ever said that. And we were just like, let's put it in there. Let's see if we can bring it back. I don't think we ever brought it back.

[Josh Radner]

I like how, how, how it's said by Ted in a very like, it's.

[Craig Thomas]

Like I say this all the time.

[Josh Radner]

Like, yeah, last week you were busting my apple bag. This week you're busting my apple bag. Like, it's really funny and silly.

[Craig Thomas]

You say it. You played it in the best way where you call no attention to it and thereby like made it ten times better. It's.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, yeah. Just going back to that, that idea that Victoria had about preserving the perfection of it by not allowing it to get sullied by the, by the, you know, later time. Yeah, I don't know. I, I always, I hate repeating myself. And if I Ever. Do gentle listeners just forgive me, but Richard Rohr, who's a Franciscan priest that I love, he has this thing about perfection that he says that I think is so smart. He says human perfection excludes imperfection. Divine perfection includes imperfection.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah. I don't think you've ever said that.

[Josh Radner]

Do I need to say that anymore?

[Craig Thomas]

And if you did, it's a wonderful imperfection that you're repeating it.

[Josh Radner]

Yes, exactly. But no, we as humans, we want to, we want. We think perfection is like keep that imperfection out, but in the grand sense of things, imperfections included. He has a book called Everything Belongs to. Right?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

So I think in, in when you look at the. I think that's what a lot of people are saying when they write in and, and leave us voice notes about how I met your mother is like the, the, the. It kept them going because you see the imperfection in the struggle and why is this happening? This shouldn't be happening this way. But you see that it was all leading somewhere. You know, it's a.

[Craig Thomas]

It's mostly about imperfection, this show.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, it's mostly about imperfection.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

But it also says in that. That imperfection not contrary to the idea that it means the, the universe is chaotic and, and disordered. It actually says no in spite. No, because of that and because of the long tail of looking at things with some perspective. You see, the universe is benevolent and ordered.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes, I totally agree. And I think literally we manifested it whether we meant to or not, when Ted shows up in this completely imperfect outfit with bleach stains, right. They meet in tuxedos. They meet. He's a knight in shining armor and she's the princess in the tower. And he goes in and she's covered in flour, putting frosting on cupcakes and he's wearing a shirt with stains on it. And that's why I think that moment gets me so much when she says, oh, thank God. Because he's kind of like, here's the real me. I'm willing to roll the dice on this being imperfect. Just look at me. And she's not in a perfect moment either. And they realize they're going to like, they're going to exist in imperfection together. They're going to risk stepping out of that one little night they were trying to put in like a little hothouse.

[Josh Radner]

And you know, this is like garment as metaphor for the whole episode. Like a bleach stained sweatshirt is that thing in an object. Right. It's like you are more attached to that Sweatshirt. Once it has the bleach stain on it, it becomes somehow more perfect with its flaw. Yes, right. And it becomes more yoursabi. It's the wabi sabi. It's yours. It's a. It's a sign of your own humanity and your own imperfection. I also. I really. It's. It. It mirrors. It kind of rhymes, you know, with him in the pilot going in with all of them to go get Robin.

[Craig Thomas]

Right.

[Josh Radner]

They're all in the taxi.

[Craig Thomas]

Rebecca was like, they always go everywhere. And with Ted in a taxi together.

[Josh Radner]

They'Re wildly codependent and enmeshed.

[Craig Thomas]

It's lovely, though. It's so funny.

[Josh Radner]

Adorable. But there's something, you know. And then his. I don't know, like, that speech is so lovely. But, I mean, Barney's, you know, crap or get off the pot is such a good treacle cutter.

[Craig Thomas]

That is the. That's the definition of a good treacle cutter. Cutting through the sugar.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. But I remember, and maybe this is, like, Ashley just made me as an actor feel so good. But, like, there's something about watching me all these years later. I remember seeing this episode, and I really liked just how I went and got her, you know, there's something so satisfying about his masculine energy that is just forward.

[Craig Thomas]

He's like Han Solo in this one. He's Luke Skywalker most of the time. He's Han Solo in this one.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. And there's something great about when Ted, like, craps or get off the pot, like, when he's in decision, when he's out of his overthinky, indecisive, When. When he's actually in action. He's an incredibly appealing guy, and you can understand why he would, you know, know 83% of the time what to say to a woman.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And I. I think that it's one of the most comfortable I've seen you in an episode. Do you know what I mean? You just seemed very comfortable in this one. Like, I. I don't know. I think you and Ashley just. There was an energy that it unlocked that was, like, a little different in you in this one. And it's just. It's so lovely. And Ted, if you think about it, it's the embodiment of what you always say about Ted, which is, like, the resilience is sort of the spirit animal of Ted. He just got so fucked up in the previous episode by how hard he tried to get Robin to meet his date to this wedding, and kind of in the blink of an eye he's able to scrape himself up from that defeat and be so present and kind of swagger into this new challenge and this new chapter. And I think you played it so great. I just think you owned the sort of like the relief of moving on to something new for Ted.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. But it's funny, you know, Barney's vision for their night was like, we're both gonna like, get these bridesmaids. And Ted's like, no, I'm actually gonna get a new girlfriend. Yeah, I'm gonna have a very serious relationship that's gonna start tonight.

[Craig Thomas]

Starts right now.

[Josh Radner]

Foreign this is how we like to end these episodes. We get so many wonderful letters filled with just so much love and gratitude and appreciation and insight. And we're moved every single week by these. Keep them coming. You can go to how we made your mother.com and go to contact and you can either leave us a voice note or write something and hopefully it'll make it onto the air. This is a really fun part of this for us is to hear from you guys.

[Craig Thomas]

It's a gift. Thank you. Keep them coming. Definitely.

[Josh Radner]

Dear Hamyam, this is the story of how I met you. It's 2011. I'm 18, fresh off the train from a small town in India, wide eyed and overwhelmed in Mumbai. For context, it's like moving from a small town to New York. Everything was new, fast and exciting. Soon enough, a girl I was very much interested in introduced me to how I met your mother. It was a funny accident. We were at lunch when she took a sip of piping hot soup, winced and yelled ouchie in my mouth and burst out laughing. I had no idea what she was talking about. After an enthusiastic 15 minute sales pitch from her and a quick 10 minute hard drive transfer, I hit play on the pilot. Little did I know that this 720p file from a world I had no context for would change my life. Or as Barney would put it, it taught me how to live. At the time, my English wasn't great. I could barely string two proper sentences together. So the first thing I picked up from him, yim, was the language. But what kept me hooked was the world Carter, Craig and Pam had built. The way Ted saw his life as a story in the making, that shaped me. His nostalgia, his deep reflections and future Ted's narration, it all stayed with me. Now, when I'm with my friends or caught in an interesting moment, I remind myself that a couple years down the line, this will be a wonderful memory. And when it comes back, unannounced it'll make me smile. Ted's words have broken my heart, made me laugh. And now, after seeing just a little more of life, they feel more real than ever. Sometimes it's like he's talking about me. And then, of course, there's the writing, the brilliance of it all. The things Himyim introduced. The playbook, the bro code, the drum roll. Future Ted, future Marshall. You gave me a whole new vocabulary that was funny, fresh, and profound at the same time. I may or may not have stolen life lessons from the show and pass them off as my own wisdom to friends in need. Let's call it borrowing. Now, at 29, as a filmmaker, I find myself going back to the show not just for comfort, but for lessons. The way you took eccentric, lovable characters and pushed them into raw, vulnerable moments. It's magic. And somehow, even after a dozen rewatches and knowing every episode inside out, I still discover new details. A subtle reaction, a cool edit call, a background character doing something hilarious. It's like a little whoa, that was cool moment that I enjoy by myself. Also, watching the bloopers and 20 things you missed in Himyim videos is still one of my favorite things to do. So to everyone who worked on the show, thank you for the laughs, the heartbreaks, the ridiculous inside jokes, and the life lessons I never saw coming. You had no idea you were shaping a kid in India one episode at a time, but you did. With all my heart. Hardik Sadhwani.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my gosh. Beautiful. Wow.

[Josh Radner]

Beautiful.

[Craig Thomas]

Thank you for that. Thank you for sharing that story. And, boy, is your English good now.

[Josh Radner]

See what good teachers you were.

[Craig Thomas]

Incredibly well written. That's so good.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Wow.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. I mean, two things that came up. One is, you know, I'd mentioned this before, but, like, the. The. The world of Stage 22 on the Fox lot all those years was so insulated. And it felt, you know, it's a huge stage, but it felt very small. It felt like this little village, this little bustling village with. With all sorts of, you know, craftspeople and. And, you know, crew members and writers and actors and just everyone milling about, making this show, and it felt so small, you forget it was being beamed all over the world. Yeah, all over the world. 2011. It was still on, you know, when he got a hold of it, but it was affecting people's lexicons. It was affecting people, you know, changing people's sense of humor. And I've also heard from so many people, I mean, so many people who say, you, how I met your Mother. That's how I learned English.

[Craig Thomas]

I've heard it too. I've heard it over and over again, and it floors me equally every time. It hasn't. The amazement has not diminished every time I hear that. It's what an honor. And it's also, it's, it's like we weren't writing this thinking people would be learning English from it. You know, it's just like it's so not a consequence we imagined would come of this because too many ripples.

[Josh Radner]

It's probably, you know, they say that if you can, if the, the true test of whether you really understand a different language, if you can watch a comedy in that language and get the jokes, get the jokes. Because so much of, of humor is misdirection or irony. Like, it's not, it's. If you just have a rudimentary understanding of the language, you're not going to get a lot of humor that's popular in the culture.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

So if you can really understand it comedically, that's why I think it is a really good teacher. Because it's like, you know, I would, I. This would be something for AI but like, I bet How I Met your Mother had a larger vocabulary than a lot of other shows on at the time, like sitcoms. Like, you, you know, they're not. Every show is dropping, like, making ineffable, like a hilarious plot point. You know, it had a lot of polysyllabic wor. Marshall, you know, using legal terms and stuff. So I think I, I, I, I really love what he was saying in the, in this whole thing. But I am, I continue to be delighted. My, I have a friend, Nima, who grew up in Tehran until he was 15 and then moved to Canada. And, and he didn't tell me until I actually met him the same weekend I met my wife. But, and he, he is now a very dear friend. And he didn't reveal to me until years into our friendship that he learned English from How I Met yout Mother and Scrubs. My God, Scrubs and How I Met your Mother were the two shows that he just knew backwards and forwards and kind of taught him about, about America and all this stuff.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God. What, what an honor. I mean, what an honor that it could, could be part of someone's journey in learning English and that it continues to mean something. Predict. Thank you so much. That was an amazing letter. Thanks for letting us be part of your story. Honestly. Means a lot.

[Josh Radner]

I am guilty. Please acquit me. All sins are forgiven in New York City.

[Craig Thomas]

How We Made youe Mother is hosted and executive produced by Josh Radner and Craig Thomas. The show was produced by me, Alec Lev and our co producer is Doug Matica. Our audio producer and mixer is Alex Reeves at Point of Blue Studios and our digital content producer AKA Gen Z Master is Emily Blumberg. Artwork by John Morrow. Please follow, rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or your podcast player of choice. It really does help the show. Our theme song is NYC by our own Josh Radner with additional music by Craig Thomas and Andrew Majewski. Special thanks to Lola Kennedy and Elliot Connors. Visit how we madeyourmother.com to sign up for our substack mailing list and for links to our social media. You can also click on the contact page to send us an email or a voice message. Your stories and questions are an important part of the show. Want some merch? Click on the store link or go to howyougetyourmerch.com subscribe to Josh Radnor Muse letters on Substack. Order Craig Thomas debut [e-mail] novel and you can subscribe to My Dead Fathers Society also on Substack to learn about how you make a difference.

[Ashley Williams]

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