How We Made a Cartoon | S1E3 "The Sweet Taste of Liberty"

Summary

How We Made Your Mother: Episode 3 Summary – "The Sweet Taste of Liberty"

Release Date: April 7, 2025

Introduction

In the third episode of How We Made Your Mother titled "The Sweet Taste of Liberty," hosts Josh Radnor and Craig Thomas delve deep into the intricacies of the third episode of the seminal sitcom How I Met Your Mother (HIMYM). Joined by producer Alec Lev, the trio explores the episode's unique narrative structure, character developments, and the creative forces behind its enduring legacy.

Episode Overview: "The Sweet Taste of Liberty" [02:23 – 17:14]

"The Sweet Taste of Liberty," originally aired on October 3, 2005, marks the third installment in HIMYM's groundbreaking first season. As Josh Radnor humorously remarks, "On October 3, that'll be 20 years since this episode aired. My God, we just don't understand this math" (02:34). The episode distinguishes itself from the preceding two by adopting a cartoon-style narrative, infusing Barney's character with exaggerated antics reminiscent of Looney Tunes.

Character Analysis: Barney's Portrayal and Relationship with Ted [08:27 – 11:08]

Phil Lord and Chris Miller, renowned for their work on The Lego Movie and 21 Jump Street, penned this episode, bringing a fresh, animated perspective to Barney Stinson (Neil Patrick Harris). Craig Thomas highlights Barney's transformation: "He really, I'll give them a lot of credit. They really showed how far you could push Barney and make him just insane" (08:27). Barney's actions—climbing out of suitcases and executing elaborate schemes—mirror his complex desire for belonging and approval, particularly from Ted Mosby (Josh Radnor).

Notable Quote:

"Barney is chaos as a creative force. He's trying to shake the dust off of Ted and saying, like, your life will be better if you go on adventures with me." – Craig Thomas (38:28)

Writing and Production Insights: Phil Lord and Chris Miller's Contribution [03:03 – 17:14]

Thomas and Radnor discuss how Lord and Miller infused the episode with a vibrant, animated energy. The duo's background in animation and live-action storytelling allowed them to elevate Barney's character, balancing his ludicrous antics with underlying emotional depth. This approach not only entertained but also deepened Barney's role within the friend group dynamic.

Thematic Discussions: Creation vs. Maintenance Forces [37:06 – 40:22]

A compelling segment of the discussion revolves around the spiritual principle of the three forces in the universe: creation, maintenance, and destruction. Radnor explains, "Barney is actually the force of creation in this" (38:27), positioning him as the catalyst that propels Ted out of his comfort zone. This theme underscores the episode's exploration of risk-taking versus maintaining the status quo, illustrating how Barney's chaotic influence fosters growth and resilience among the characters.

Listener Feedback: Heartfelt Letters from Fans [52:28 – 63:00]

The hosts open the floor to listener letters, sharing poignant stories of how HIMYM impacted their lives. One standout letter from Serenity (54:10) expresses deep gratitude for the show's role in providing comfort during challenging times. Another letter from Vic (56:02) details personal hardships and how the show's themes of love and resilience echoed his own experiences as a parent navigating his son's health challenges. These narratives highlight the show's profound emotional resonance beyond its comedic facade.

Personal Reflections: Craig's Story and Show's Impact [54:08 – 63:00]

Craig Thomas shares a moving account of his son's battle with Jacobson Syndrome, emphasizing how HIMYM served as an escape and a source of strength. He recounts, "Making those episodes got me through the darkest time in my life" (56:02), illustrating the symbiotic relationship between the creators and the show’s audience. This personal testimony underscores the show's role as not just entertainment but also as a vessel for shared human experiences and resilience.

Conclusion: Enduring Themes and Listener Engagement [63:00 – End]

As the episode wraps up, Radnor and Thomas reflect on HIMYM's timeless appeal, attributing its longevity to its balanced portrayal of both joyous and challenging life moments. They assert, "If you do a show that's really about these perennial ideas about love, friendship, family, resilience, good times, bad times... you have a better shot at creating something a little more timeless" (56:53). The hosts encourage listeners to engage by sharing their stories, fostering a community that continues to find relevance and solace in HIMYM's narrative.

Notable Quotes

• Craig Thomas [03:07]: "Barkeley and Ted going out on the town was gonna be a speed of the show."
• Josh Radnor [10:01]: "But Neil also, like, he is a magician."
• Craig Thomas [17:14]: "Life is short, and you have... you end up years and years later. What are the stories you remember? What are the stories you're going to tell?"
• Josh Radnor [38:28]: "Barney is chaos as a creative force."

Final Thoughts

"The Sweet Taste of Liberty" serves as a pivotal episode in the first season, effectively establishing Barney's multifaceted character and his integral role within the friend group. Through the creative vision of Phil Lord and Chris Miller, coupled with thoughtful analysis by Josh Radnor and Craig Thomas, this episode exemplifies how HIMYM seamlessly blends humor with poignant life lessons. How We Made Your Mother successfully unpacks these elements, offering listeners both nostalgic reflection and deeper understanding of the show's enduring impact.

For more detailed discussions and listener stories, visit howwemadeyourmother.com and engage with the community through their contact page.

Transcript

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[Jan]

My name is Jan. I'm from Spain. I'm 22 right now. Started How I Met yout Mother more or less when I was like 14 or 15. You know, when you're 14 or 15, you don't really get taught things about your feelings, how to manage them, how to deal with them, how to love. And these characters from Ham and yout Mother really taught me a lot about emotional intelligence, how to deal with my feelings, how to deal with people, how people feel about themselves as well. I think it truly made me a better person and it had a big impact in how I grew up, especially emotionally. And actually, I think when I was with my first girlfriend, the first time I told her, I love you, I said falafel instead. And she watched the show also. So that was funny.

[Josh Radnor]

But, yeah.

[Jan]

Thank you.

[Josh Radnor]

I'm alone. What a pity I won't be soon in New York City when I see you. Please permit me to tell you everything in New York City. Hello, I'm Josh Radner. Welcome to another episode of How We Made youe Mother. I'm joined, as always, by my friend, Craig Thomas.

[Craig Thomas]

Hello, Josh.

[Josh Radnor]

Hi, Craig. We also have our beloved producer and sometimes friend Alec Lev here.

[Craig Thomas]

Sometimes.

[Alec Lev]

Hello, Josh. Hello, Josh. We're very excited. We're talking about.

[Josh Radnor]

He's always our friend.

[Alec Lev]

Well, that's nice of you to say. We are talking about the Sweet Taste of Liberty today, which first aired on television on October 3, 2005.

[Josh Radnor]

So on October 3, that'll be 20 years since this episode aired. My God, we just don't understand this math.

[Craig Thomas]

I don't. I think it's Wrong. I think it's wrong. We just agreed we would say the dates two seconds ago to contextualize it. And as soon as you said it, I felt sad and old.

[Josh Radnor]

I felt it too. Let's come through the room.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. The Grim Reaper coming from.

[Josh Radnor]

Okay, so sweet Taste of Liberty. This is episode, episode three of 208, right?

[Craig Thomas]

Episode three of 208. We're getting there.

[Josh Radnor]

We're chugging along.

[Craig Thomas]

We've got a nice chug.

[Josh Radnor]

I mean, last week was two. We're really making progress.

[Craig Thomas]

We really are. We're almost at the finish line. Okay, this is a fun one. This is a fun one. I feel like parts one and two, parts one and two, episodes one and two felt like a two parter. It felt like an hour show rewatching it. It really felt that way. And this feels like its own show in a way. This is like also the show is this other thing that's a Barney cartoon. And that is exactly how the writers of this episode, the wonderful Chris Miller and Phil Lord. Lord and Miller. You might know them from the Lego movies. You might know them from 21 Jump Street, 22 Jump Street. You might know them from winning Oscars for the Spider Verse movies. Or at least an Oscar for the first one that got robbed on that second one. And they're amazing. And they were writers in season one of How I Met yout Mother and they wrote this episode.

[Josh Radnor]

Remind me, how did you. Did you guys work on Letterman together? How did you know them?

[Craig Thomas]

We had the same agent. Our agent. Our agent. Matt Rice, who I'll give a nice compliment to here is he. He was very young. He was only a couple years older than all of us. And he had his initial client roster when he was a junior agent was like me and Carter, Will Forte and Chris and Phil and a few other really, really cool people. And it was just like, God, this guy that. There is. There is something to a good agent.

[Josh Radnor]

There is something wrong, though. You. I remember you telling me, or maybe Chris and Phil told me that Chris was long time married and Phil was single. Mirroring you and Carter, right?

[Craig Thomas]

Insanely mirroring me and Carter. Yeah. Chris and Robin went to Dartmouth and fell in love and were together the entire time in Dartmouth. I'm Craig. My wife is Rebecca. C and R. Chris and Robin. Craig and Rebecca. Craig and Rebecca. I'm going to just talk about myself in the third person for the rest of the episode. It's not going to be weird at all.

[Josh Radnor]

What did Craig do?

[Craig Thomas]

Craig and Rebecca, they met those two Met in college, too, and were together all the way through college. So it was like this writing team of a guy, Chris, who had a CNR college relationship. And then his writing partner Phil was like a single guy. Like, Carter was a single guy. And we were just like, writing. We were doppelgangers. I mean, to use himyim speak, we were all doppelgangers.

[Josh Radnor]

Did you take Chris's wife's name for Robin Shcherbatsky?

[Craig Thomas]

So, kind of, because we moved out to LA and met this incredibly cool new person. Robin Mergio, Chris Miller's then fiance, or still girlfriend. They got married after we went to their wedding, and I remember it helped us. Want to name the character? I think we were talking about the name Robin. And then we met, like, the coolest person in the world named Robin. We're like, yeah, this is a sign from the universe. So I'd say, yeah, it influenced it.

[Josh Radnor]

That's great. Especially because you were Frankensteining her together. That wasn't based on a real person, right?

[Craig Thomas]

It was the one of the five that was not based on a real person. I won't say that I stole traits from Robin Mergio to put. Robin Mergio doesn't mean collect guns.

[Josh Radnor]

She doesn't smoke cigars.

[Craig Thomas]

She doesn't smoke cigars.

[Josh Radnor]

No five dogs.

[Craig Thomas]

No five dogs. But there's something there and just the good energy. She was like this amazing new person we met when we moved to la, and we're like, there's some good karma here to put that name in there.

[Alec Lev]

By the way, I have nothing to contribute to this, except if we're twisting this thing in on itself even more, how your kids. How you met your kid's mother. If we're going back here, by the way, that you met Rebecca in college, is to tell them how that happened.

[Craig Thomas]

You've always got to get credit for shit, don't you?

[Alec Lev]

I need something.

[Craig Thomas]

You're wedging your way in. Alec Lev, producer extraordinaire. Making this whole goddamn podcast happen.

[Josh Radnor]

I guess we're calling this how we met everyone else.

[Craig Thomas]

That's many seasons away. Alec was my college dear friend in college. I met him right away, freshman year, beginning of the year. And my wife had gone to high school with Alec and was a senior still in high school, and came to visit, thinking she might want to go to that school too. And she had been friends with Alec. She said, I'll come visit Alec and a couple other friends, Noah and Joel, and she came and visited them. And that is when I met Rebecca. And so I guess you get some sort of credit. It pains me to give you any credit for anything. Some sort of. But I guess you know what you do, Craig.

[Alec Lev]

I took credit at the wedding.

[Craig Thomas]

He definitely did.

[Josh Radnor]

Credit. You're meeting Rebecca when you were a college student and she was just visiting is your only whiff of scandal in your whole biology.

[Craig Thomas]

It was scandalous because she is very smart. Besides choosing me as a partner, she's usually very smart. And she had skipped a grade in elementary school, so she was like 16 and a half. I was like 18. Jesus. So there may be legal ramifications. I shouldn't even be saying this on the air. She was, of course, wildly more mature than me at 18. And that is when we met. When and how we met. And yes, Alec, you get some credit. God damn it.

[Alec Lev]

I'm going now. See you guys. See you guys next week.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, let's move back to the episode. So, Craig, you've talked about the pilot and Purple Giraffe as kind of being a two part pilot. It establishes Ted's, you know, deep desire to get married. His kind of obsession and love of Robin. How Robin gets folded into the gang. We meet Lily and Marshall. They've gotten engaged. Barney is this odd character in their lives who creates all this. I mean, he creates equal parts great times and troubling times, but they, they keep him around. And in this episode, Kristen Phil came to you and said, we want to do a Barney cartoon. Like, let's, let's, let's explore this character.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah. There are these animals. They were very much animation guys and they've obviously done a lot more live action to you since then, but they were like, this needs to be the Barney cartoon. This needs to be like Barney's Bugs Money. And he's just taking us on an adventure. He's just dragging us through insanity. And they really, I'll give them a lot of credit. They really showed how far you could push Barney and make him just insane. Like, just. He does so many insane things. This is. This introduced legendary. This introduced the incredibly tortured sort of like legend. Wait for it. Blah, blah, Derry. This. This did so many things. He's. He's literally at one point inside a suitcase and climbs out of a suitcase. It really is like a Looney Tunes cartoon.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, I mean, I think I mentioned this, but like, that's the. That's the beginning of the Master of Disguise, right? Like the Barney as like, will do anything and has done everything.

[Craig Thomas]

The elaborate ploy. Yeah, yeah. And they really brought that. I remember thinking, is it is it too far. Is this too insane? Because Barney in the first two episodes, it's kind of like this needy guy who wants Ted's approval. Right? He just wants to be. And he still does in this one too. He still constantly wants Ted. I love how insecure and fragile Barney is underneath the suit. They even get that in Neil's episode.

[Josh Radnor]

You see Neil climb out of a suitcase and then straighten his tie and go on with his day. And you're like, yeah, I buy it.

[Craig Thomas]

I buy it. There's something about Neil's commitment that you buy it. And then he says, believe it or not, that worked. And I. I wish I. I wish I could remember. I'm sure we had some backstory of, like, what he was saying to that woman to explain why he had been in the suitcase.

[Josh Radnor]

But Neil also, like, he is a magician.

[Craig Thomas]

Literally.

[Josh Radnor]

I think he was the head of the Magic Castle for years. Like, he loves trickery and he loves an elaborate ploy. And I think so much of the way he played Barney was this magic trick. Right? Like the whole character was a kind of. You thought you were watching one thing. It was always something kind of something else. It was a really kind of elaborately stack deck. The way he played it.

[Craig Thomas]

He was. You always felt there was something else underneath that suit. There was something he was gonna pull out. And like, my favorite thing of what's underneath that suit is just how needy he is. Even in this episode. He's like, Ted, he's trying to phone five. Ted. And he's like, ted, I know when you don't phone five, right? And he just, he's like, he's so attuned to wanting Ted's approval. Even in this one where he's just dragging. He's just giving Ted this horrible night.

[Josh Radnor]

It's also funny that he's clearly coining things in the. Like he's done them like twice. But he's declared it's a. Like, this is a thing we do. But like, no one's ever participated before. But he's like, this is our thing. Do it, you know?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. I feel like there's a chance that was the first phone five and he's acting like they do it all the time.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. And I wrote you this little ditty to sing to you in New York City. We'll be right back. Craig, I heard a rumor, and I want you to confirm or deny this.

[Craig Thomas]

Uh huh.

[Josh Radnor]

I heard in the world of comedy writing that the number one most important thing for success as a comedy writer is good hair. Is that True.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah. No, that's true. That's all we talk about in a writer's room. It's really. It's the most glamorous place. Hair is the number one thing we.

[Josh Radnor]

Talk about hair, like actual writing ability, then. Sense of humor.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, no, fashion. There's a fashion sense of humor.

[Josh Radnor]

Oh, fashion is number two.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah. And then kind of just overall physique and then like 4 is like Monty Python references.

[Josh Radnor]

Right. Well, you and. You and Carter have long had two just great heads of hair.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, wow. I didn't think so.

[Josh Radnor]

I just want to honor that.

[Craig Thomas]

I didn't expect that, but I accept it and thank you.

[Josh Radnor]

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[Craig Thomas]

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[Josh Radnor]

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[Craig Thomas]

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[Josh Radnor]

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[Craig Thomas]

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[Josh Radnor]

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[Craig Thomas]

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[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, Craig.

[Craig Thomas]

Do you have any travel plans? Coming up and not at all. Leading question, do they possibly involve music in any Way and go.

[Josh Radnor]

You know what? I'm going on my mini tour starting late April. Seattle, Portland, zipping down to San Francisco, Sacramento. I feel like I'm missing something. Louisiana. San Diego, Phoenix. I'm super excited. I'm playing at the Troubadour in la.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God. Is that the first time you're playing there for the first time?

[Josh Radnor]

No, I played there with Ben Lee, but it's great. I feel like you can hear the ghosts of Carly Simon and James Taylor and Carole King.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God. That is a bucket list place to play.

[Josh Radnor]

You can go to joshratner.com tour for tickets.

[Craig Thomas]

Let me ask you this, though. I'm going to poke one little small hole in your story. Ready?

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

While you're away, what are you doing with your place?

[Josh Radnor]

It's just sitting here. It's just sitting here. It's just sitting there, just gathering dust and cobwebs.

[Craig Thomas]

You're looking me in the eye on a computer screen and telling me it's just sitting there.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. What do you got for me?

[Craig Thomas]

Do you know what you should have done? You know, we still should and could do.

[Josh Radnor]

No, I don't know. Tell me.

[Craig Thomas]

You should host your place on Airbnb. Oh, lawyered.

[Josh Radnor]

You're right. You're right.

[Craig Thomas]

You could be making a little extra money while you're away on the tour. It's a double win.

[Josh Radnor]

This is great information. For musicians who tour like me, your.

[Craig Thomas]

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[Josh Radnor]

And now back to the show.

[Craig Thomas]

He just wants to belong. He so badly wants to belong. Yeah, that's what I get from these early Barney episodes. And maybe we lost our way at certain points later where we made him too literally the thing. But what I. But what I really love about these early ones is he's just so fragile and needy. It's. And I think it like, gives Ted such power in the episode, but it's also.

[Josh Radnor]

It's also power Ted never asked for. No, it's like, it's like power that was thrust in Ted's lap and he's like, man, I don't. I don't want to be the guardian of your self esteem. Like, I can't be like, always telling you, you know, affirming you and going on these adventures. But. Okay, so talk us through the plot. Like, like how. What was your kind of initial inspiration for this beyond a cartoon?

[Craig Thomas]

The episode. The two questions of this episode that I remember talking about in the writers room were, why are they Friends with this insane guy who wears suits and just says insane things and doesn't seem to. How do we make the sale of why Barney's their friend? And then the other thing we're trying to make the sale on was showing Robin and Lily becoming friends. They really just met Robin. They don't have a dynamic. Barney has been with them for years. I think he does invent things and pretend that they always do it. I love that observation, Josh. But I think they have history. Robin and Lily, we just were like, we just got to get them together and show them having a cute, fun night at the bar. Those were the two missions. At the end, we wanted to end an episode that says, why does Barney add value to this group? And making the sale to the audience of, like, okay, the first two episodes were really heartfelt. It was really Ted Hart forward. Those first two episodes. I loved how they felt like an hour. I feel like you could just watch that as an hour, those first two ones. And it felt that way much more than I remember it feeling that way at the time. The third one, this one is just like, we're just going to try something different. This is just going to be a different kind of song. And it had to make the sale of, like, Barney, you're going to want to watch Barney. He's going to bring you crazy places you never would have gone.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

And I like the generosity at the end of Saget. Saget's voiceover is really nice at the end of. That's why we hung out with Barney. You wound up somewhere you never would have been. You wound up with a story. And the proof is that he's telling the kids that story. It's the night they went to lick the Liberty Belt. So the night they did that. And Barney's always looking for these superlatives in this kind of damaged, searching, needy, strange way, needing to feel superlative and special.

[Josh Radnor]

And it's also a real. He's addicted to novelty. He wants to be the first one to do something. He wants to create these stories. No one's ever done this before. And also, his inability to commit and always having to be with a new woman is like this kind of rotating. It's this. He's a dopamine search, you know, he's addicted to, like, the dopamine hit of the new.

[Craig Thomas]

But and yet monogamously committed to Ted.

[Josh Radnor]

Absolutely. It's his greatest relationship.

[Craig Thomas]

It's his greatest love.

[Josh Radnor]

Greatest, Longest relationship.

[Craig Thomas]

It's his greatest and longest relationship. And it's, like, genuinely sweet. He's Needy. Ted has the upper hand in that relationship in a lot of ways. Ted is dragged through this insanity. He winds up, you know, detained by, like, tsa. I mean, Ted has a bad night of it, but in the end, he looks back fondly. Now, Josh, I remember you were saying, watching it, you were like, I wish there were a couple more moments where we had Ted either in the writing or the playing of it or both, where we had Ted enjoying it more, Being, like, a few more little moments where Ted's like, all right, yeah, this is kind of fun. Which I guess fights against the ending of the ending is when he realizes that. But I know what you mean. You made that observation. We were talking about it before. Say more about that. Do you feel like.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, I mean, when I was watching it. So the first two episodes, Ted is not only heart forward, but he's, like, plot forward. He's the engine of the plot, the motor. Everyone is kind of reacting around his mania and his drive and his passion. And I found that was very easy to play. I understood how to play that in this episode. I think I misjudged it. Like, if I could go back and adjust the dial, I would have. I found it. Barney's the driver of this episode. I will say this. I have such a strong memory, and these little things stick out at you. When we were on the New York street, I'm walking. Ted's walking with Marshall and Lily, and Barney pulls up in the cab, right?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And he's like, get in. Right?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

I remember there was a look in Neil's eyes that I will never forget. And it was like he had dropped into a new level of Barney ness.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Yes. 100%.

[Josh Radnor]

You know what I'm talking about.

[Craig Thomas]

The energy.

[Josh Radnor]

That's Christmas. And it also looked like, I'm taking this episode.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Like, I'm taking. This is my episode. I'm taking this. And I felt a little bit like I was just along for the ride. Now. The fun parts of it for me.

[Craig Thomas]

Well, it's literally a hostage situation.

[Josh Radnor]

That's right. That's right.

[Craig Thomas]

Esteban doors. How does he have a cab driver lock the. Lock Ted and Esteban doors.

[Josh Radnor]

He always knows. He has such a deep relationship already. With the cab driver.

[Craig Thomas]

With the cab driver. Yeah. That is based on. We always had a friend who always, like, very much got the. The cab driver's name and would always have, like. That's how Ranjit like, it was. It was a friend of ours, and a Letterman writer would always do that and sort of Take over the cab in a way, like. That's important. I don't know how Esteban can. It's a little creepy to contemplate. How can Esteban lock Ted in? I don't want to think about that. Let's keep going.

[Josh Radnor]

But what I liked about it, especially in the interrogation scene, which is kind of a classic himyim.

[Craig Thomas]

That is a great scene.

[Josh Radnor]

It's so funny. And the security guard is so funny. The main guy, so funny. But what I felt was, at its best, it establishes Ted and Barney as a kind of Abbott and Costello, Laurel and Hardy, like a classic vaudeville team, where you have the crazy one and then you have the eye roller. Right?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And that was your job in this one. You had to be the straight man, which is arguably the most important part of the equation. Conan Horse talks about that.

[Josh Radnor]

This is why I'll always love Mike Schur, who created many classic television shows, Parks and Rec and Brooklyn Nine Nine. And they're all brilliant shows. But he wrote a piece after Harold Ramis died.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

I think Esquire about how there's no Bill Murray without a Harold Ramis.

[Craig Thomas]

100%.

[Josh Radnor]

Like.

[Craig Thomas]

I mean, in Ghostbusters, Egon is like that movie in so many ways.

[Josh Radnor]

Like. Like. And how brilliant he was at, like, allow, like, holding down the center. So the crazy person can be crazy.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes. That's hard. That was your job.

[Josh Radnor]

It's really hard. And I feel like I ran into him at a party and I told him. I was like. I just felt so seen by that article. Because that's what I had to do on How I Met yout Mother. And he said to me, he goes, well, he goes, you and John Krasinski and Adam Scott will never win Emmys for these shows, but these shows cannot work without you.

[Craig Thomas]

There's no show without that role. There's no show.

[Josh Radnor]

But in some ways, I just wish, because I was placed. The first two episodes, I was so active, and in this one, I was basically reactive.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And I wish that there had been some softening of my response to it. That said, he does have to blow up at him. He does get annoyed, you know, so.

[Craig Thomas]

I know what you mean. I know what you mean.

[Josh Radnor]

I think it's hitting something a little hard, but I think it's brilliantly constructed, the episode, you know, it's brilliant. Constructed to do what you want it to do. And I also think. One more thing. I realize I'm on a terror here. You're still teaching the audience how to watch How I Met your Mother and You're also teaching yourself what the show is and what it's capable of.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes, right. Yes. It's episode three.

[Josh Radnor]

So. So you have this pattern established. This, this, you know, what do they say? There's like 17 plots or something? Like, like the first one is one plot, essentially.

[Craig Thomas]

That seems high. I think there's like five.

[Josh Radnor]

Maybe there's five plots. The second one is. No, no, no, we can, we can also do this. It's like, it's like a superhero discovering another power. Like, we can also let Barney be an insane engine of mania and wild ideas.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, the show's auditioning to the audience still in this episode. All of season one is auditioning. What other moves do we have? We showed you the Ted, essentially an hour long, Ted heartfelt story. And now this next one, which almost feels like episode two the more I talk about it, because I keep on thinking of the first one as an hour. This had to show a new move. This had to show a new move and had to show the two ladies together. We needed that. We needed them to become friends. And I liked them together. I will say, while we're expressing mild regrets, I liked that story. I think they were cute together. I think it actually set up some good things of Lily wrestling with like, oh, I'm an engaged lady now. And that sort of plants a little bit of a seed for later in the season. Spoilers. Things that might happen about her attitude towards am I getting married too young? It's like there's a little seed planted there. But I will say, when I watch this one, it's a very sort of linear, that story between her and Robin. It's very much like it could be another sitcom. Do you know what I mean? It's like they're in the bar. There's sort of a series of beats. We don't play with time that much. It's fun at the end how the two stories kind of dovetail. Marshall comes in, thinks the guy's hitting on her. There's things I like about it and I just like them. It was the right move to put those two ladies together, but from a writing perspective. I watched it and I thought, boy, the Barney story is this very fun cartoon. There's three way split screens. There's intercuts, Marshalls driving, Marshall's singing crazy songs, Barney's climbing out of suitcases. There's high angle security camera black and white footage. And there's like, you're just in this world and then you go to the barn. It's all kind of Linear. And maybe that's okay and they offset each other. But I remember feeling like this. Isn't this him? Yummy. This B story, this Lily, Robin, B story. I remember feeling like maybe that's a sign of early times where we didn't quite figure out a way within that linear story to kind of make it.

[Josh Radnor]

But I will say, it felt psychologically honest to me.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

In that Lily is reckoning with this feeling that a phase of her life is done. Like going to a bar and spotting a guy across the room and him coming over and talking to you. Like, she's not gonna have that anymore. And Robin seems to have that just endless in the episode. But I really like what Robin says, you know, you have what we're all here looking for.

[Craig Thomas]

I love that. That's what made it land. That's what made it land. And that's what made me feel like they were friends. I feel like we made the sale. I love that moment. I love how she. That to her, everybody here is looking for what you already got kind of thing. And that's nice. That's general.

[Josh Radnor]

And also our favorite girl in the pilot who says, what's taking so long?

[Craig Thomas]

What's taking so long?

[Josh Radnor]

You get the feeling like Robyn just hadn't found her tribe in New York. And suddenly it's not just Ted. It's like, oh, this is a girlfriend. This is a new, good, deep girlfriend who I can talk with. I can be honest with. You really do need to establish that. And I think it was well done.

[Craig Thomas]

What I loved about the end of Purple Giraffe Episode two is Ted invites. Ted knows he's got this treasure chest full of wonderful humans that he can offer to Robin. If he can only get over his own feeling that he's been rejected by her. If he can be generous enough to say, come, you need a tribe. I've got one. I've got it for you. I can cast your life with a set of amazing friends. And he's generous enough to do that at the end of Purple Draft. And then we see the gift of that in the fact that Lily and Robin bond and the fact that Robin sort of talks Lily down and says, like, don't be insane. You have what these people are looking for. I love that ending. Yeah. I just felt like it was a little linear along the way. It's like, especially when we found a little, like, bell and or whistle along the way in that storyline that could have been a little more fun. But I like plenty about it, and I really like how it Ends.

[Josh Radnor]

And also Marshal and Lily, especially in the first season, they're metabolizing. Going first. They are, they're metabolizing. Like, we're the ones who are doing this first. We don't have any contemporaries that we can turn to and be like, yeah, what was it like in your first month of engagement? Like, what was it like when you realized you. Your wedding ring repelled men in a bar or whatever, you know?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And this was, this was Rebecca and I. We were the young, old married couple. That's what we were. And we went through all of that and felt separate from our friends in some ways. Like Marshall. The thing where Marshall is home alone studying law, like, that's sort of me talking to, like, Carter and all the Late show writers. They're out doing crazy stuff, having crazy stories, and I'm like, at a bed and breakfast in Connecticut with my wife, like, with other, like, 60 year olds. And we're. We were old before our time. I mean, it was. It was fun to be old before our time. I was fine with that. Every now and again I was like, shit, I wish I could just go get in the car and drive and like, go be in Atlantic City with those guys. Right. With whatever fucking adventure they were having. And so that's what this came from.

[Josh Radnor]

Speaking of Marshall, home alone studying. This was Marshall's singing first. It was the debut of Marshall as a songwriter.

[Craig Thomas]

That's just a musical episode. Yes. It's almost like a low key musical episode because like 40% of his dialogue is sung. I love it so much.

[Josh Radnor]

I should say that I don't recall you or Carter unless it was like a big number, like you've got slapped or whatever. Did he write you've got slapped or you guys wrote it?

[Craig Thomas]

We wrote that.

[Josh Radnor]

You wrote that. But the other.

[Craig Thomas]

No, he. He did the melodies.

[Josh Radnor]

He did all the melodies he came up with.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

I will never unhear.

[Craig Thomas]

And we hear all the time on social media from lawyers and law students who say, like, I say that five times a day. Like, they, they like, like lawyers in training very much.

[Josh Radnor]

What's the other line? Like, something responsible choice for my.

[Craig Thomas]

Making a responsible choice for my future. And by the way, that was another. Like, we're auditioning the character because Marshall in those first couple is kind of like, he has to propose. He has to be that guy. He has to be like the nervous guy trying to move on to a more adult chapter of life. This one Marshall got to show that he's this fun weirdo. He's this absolute fun Weirdo. He's trying to study. He's missing out on great times with his friends. And he is singing to himself like a crazy person alone in the apartment. And there's something so charming about it. Siegel killed that stuff.

[Josh Radnor]

Marshall has a little bit of a, like, puppy energy. Like, he. If someone throws a ball, he goes after it. He does, like, come to Philly. Okay. You know, don't you go back. Okay.

[Craig Thomas]

Constantly turning around.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. He really. He's up for. He. Even though he's, you know, engaged and he's trying to be, you know, be responsible, he's still, like, up for a good time, you know?

[Craig Thomas]

Totally. There's some very. I love all the Chris and Philisms in here because they. They make those little songs from Marshall. I feel like that was very much Chris and Phil. Like, that's just. There's certain things that are just very uniquely. It's only how they would say them. Like one of those songs. And it's an act break. I think it's the Act 2 break. Marshall's singing a little song at the end of Act 2 because he's going. Turning around now he's turned around from Philly. And I was turning around to go back to Philly. And he just ends his song by saying, destroy. And it's just so weird. Going to Philly. Destroy. It's just, like, so bizarre. I don't remember. I think that was very Kristen Phil. And so if you look at Barney's dialogue in this episode, he's so fucking crazy in this episode. The way he speaks is insane. These short little staccato bursts. These weird. He's just trying. Everything is him trying to brand a new phrase like you were saying. Whether or not they've ever said it. You don't know if he's ever said this to them before. He's just pretending. They say it all the time.

[Josh Radnor]

But he commits to. I mean, talk about committing to the bit.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Committing to the bit.

[Josh Radnor]

I like the. This. The phone.

[Craig Thomas]

5. The phone. The phone eyes. The phone eyes. The two fingers. The two fingers. Those three photos. Like, the pointing of his eyes pointing at you. Pointing to his eyes. That little three photo montage. Also a Chris and Phil joke that. So sometimes as a showrunner, you get a script into you and you have this weird response where there's so many good things that you're happy because you know the rewrite's not gonna be very extensive. But you're also, like, a little bit jealous. Like, fuck, I wish I thought of that. Or, like, that's better than I could write. And like, those guys, Chris and Phil, there's so many things in there that are like, you know, the lactose intolerant legendary joke. That's a Chris and Phil classic. It's very funny. After the show ended, like, 10 years out, sometime recently, we got a call from Entertainment Weekly. Carter and I did. They're like, we wanted to talk to you guys as showrunners of How I Met yout Mother. We're doing this, like, top 50 best TV catchphrases or best lines on a series. They're like, oh, don't mind if I do. You know, straighten my tie here. Maybe they'll put a photo of us. I wonder which one of our gems that we wrote Entertainment Weekly, wants to highlight. And like, yeah, we already talked to Chris and Phil because it's their line, but we just want a little background from you two. And we're like, how do you want an Oscar? Give us this.

[Josh Radnor]

So you and. You and Carter, obviously were the main writers on the first two episodes.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And then you get this. You get a writer's room together. Like, how much did you crack the story of Sweet Taste of Liberty and then hand it to Chris and Phil? Or did they say, let's write a Barney cartoon? And they came back with that.

[Craig Thomas]

They were part of cracking it. But they were a very strong voice of Barney cartoon. We did this hour long rom com. Very sweet, very heartfelt. Now we need to be. They wanted to take over and make it like a fun cartoon. And that idea of, yeah, going to the airport. I gotta pick someone up at the airport. The security cam montage, the fact that they're getting on airplanes, all it really. They really. They had a great, like, bravado and fearlessness to, like, let's just take swings. And I just think that comes from that animation brain incentive in some way.

[Josh Radnor]

So was. Did you guys. Did the writers room come up with, like, Barney's picking up girls at the airport? Like, picking someone up at the airport. Like, going to Philly with those girls and finding out they date Philadelphia Eagles or whatever?

[Craig Thomas]

Like, I think it was one thing led to another. I think we had the pun of picking up somebody at the airport. We liked that. And that brought us to the airport. And you just keep. Yes. Ending it. Then it became like, what if they do wind up on a plane and flying to a different city and, like, just pushing it and pushing it and pushing it. And I feel like those guys were very good at, like, don't be afraid. This one's going to be a road trip movie. We're just going to do it. They're just, they're and like that idea of having. Of licking the Liberty Bell and like, we have to make it a legendary night. A lot of that was from Chris and Phil. And I'm forever grateful for it because it did help deepen and define Barney. And it showed you some of these episodes are just going to be a crazy trip to the circus. They're not all going to be super heartfelt.

[Alec Lev]

I have a writing question. Obviously it's season one, so everything you're doing is defining future characters. But on even the shows we loved on mash, on Cheers, plots didn't threaten to redefine characters. Even from episode one, everyone's sort of set. And then it's like, what hijinks are they getting into? But you've got to make big decisions. Cause you have an end game in sight. And you've also decided this is gonna be a different kind of show. So you start off with ultimate Ted Romantic, looking for the one and kind of maybe finds it. And now you have to, I don't know, you're gonna switch to Ted's gonna start dating the coat check girl, the cross. You're gonna send Ted off on smaller adventures. And what goes into your far thinking mind as you're writing these early plots?

[Craig Thomas]

I remember thinking for a while, and I think wrongly, that we had to make episode three dealing with, like, how is Ted at integrating Robin into the group? And I think in the end, it was a good decision not to do that. It was like Ted invited Robin into the group. She's bonding with Lily. Let him. Let Ted. Don't make it about Ted and Robin. This one is something else. And we knew we'd get to more of Ted and Robin later. I remember feeling like wanting to plant the seed of Lily's insecurity about getting engaged. Just have a little seed planted about this thing where she's like, I'm invisible now that I have this ring. Not that she wants to go hook up with some other guy, the marshal, but it's just what Josh said earlier. It's like my identity has shifted in some way. A door has closed. I'm heading towards kind of adulthood and the cement drying on my life a little bit. We knew we wanted to plant seeds that Marshall and Lily, as stable as they seem, they're still young. There still might be turbulence in their journey towards their wedding day. We knew we wanted to plant that seed and we knew we wanted to sort of show that Ted wasn't gonna stop trying to go have crazy adventures just cause he was like smitten with Robin. So we wanted to make those two sales. Barney and Ted going out on the town was gonna be a speed of the show. So I feel like we were doing long term planning here. We were kind of planting a little something, a little bit of turbulence for Lily. Even though it's light and silly in this episode, it's there. And Ted's wrestling with whether Barney's gonna help get him where he needs to go. Do I really want to be dragged to Philadelphia for no reason to hang out with two girls that have boyfriends. So I think ending that episode with Ted saying, future Ted saying it was good that I hung out with Barney. I could get stuck in ruts and Barney could bust me out of them. And acknowledging that is kind of saying the audience, like, you're gonna see that story. They're gonna have fun adventures on this show.

[Josh Radnor]

And this old man, he must admit he fell in love with you.

[Craig Thomas]

New York City and now, commercials. McDonald's meets the Minecraft universe with one.

[Josh Radnor]

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[Craig Thomas]

A Big Mac or 10 piece McNuggets.

[Josh Radnor]

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[Craig Thomas]

Wow, this house is cute.

[Alec Lev]

But can I really get in the.

[Craig Thomas]

Game in this economy?

[Alec Lev]

I do have savings and I am responsible.

[Craig Thomas]

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[Josh Radnor]

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[Craig Thomas]

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[Craig Thomas]

End of commercials. Back to show.

[Josh Radnor]

I also thought so this was something Jordana and I were talking about. She didn't do a recording, but she said, if you want to say that, we talked about this thing. But something that jumped out to both of us was there's a spiritual principle that we talk about all the time. There's three forces in the universe. There's the creation, the force of creation, the force of maintenance, and the force of destruction. Right? And there are these dynamic three forces. They're always going. And if you keep the creation force at the front of your life, that means risk taking chances, stepping into the unknown, trying new things, going new places, challenging yourself. Then the in the second place, Is maintenance, where think, you know, things that are working, that are. That you want to keep in your life, but that it has to be in the second position. And then, naturally, the things that are irrelevant to your life go away.

[Craig Thomas]

The.

[Josh Radnor]

The destruction operator takes care of all those. However, if you elevate maintenance into the first position. Okay, when. When you say, no, no, no, I just want things to stay the same. I don't want to rock the boat. I don't want anything new intruding on my life. It's all about familiarity and routine. And you bump this creation operator down to number two, it provokes the destruction. So it's like the universe wants you back in the unknown and the juicy, good novel stuff. Right.

[Craig Thomas]

That's a good theory.

[Josh Radnor]

So if you look at your life and you see, oh, my God, there's destruction everywhere. You should look and say, have I been living in too much in maintenance? Have I not been moving forward? Right. So we turn to each other, and we're like, barney is actually the force of creation in this. And Ted keeps saying, especially at the beginning, I just want to be at my same bar with my same friends and my same drink. Like, he's really arguing for a life of maintenance and familiarity and regularity.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And there's something about Barney. He's not quite the devil. He's actually, like. He's. He's trying to shake Ted. He's trying to shake the dust off of Ted and saying, like, your life will be better if you go on adventures with me.

[Craig Thomas]

Absolutely. That's a great way to look at this. Like, chaos as a creative force here. Barney is chaos as a creative force. And it is interesting because I. And I think we could have written this better. I love that. I'm listening. Regrets in this episode. It's a really good episode, but I think we could have even made clearer, because it's in there. I think Ted is saying, I just want to be in my same bar, because he just. He didn't land the girl in episode two. Right. He didn't get Robin.

[Josh Radnor]

He took a big risk.

[Craig Thomas]

He took a big risk, and it didn't pay off. So he wants to retreat to that bar. And he goes, well, Robin walked into that bar. She was almost the one. Maybe it'll happen again. If I sit in this bar long enough, she'll walk in. It's almost that same thing of the slutty pumpkin, right? Ted's sitting up on top of the roof like she's gonna come back. And he wants. And it is like, I Just want. I want stasis. I want maintenance. And that's not how things get created in the world. And that's. Yeah, Varney helps him break out of that. But I wish we had said something, like, spoken to the idea that because Ted was a little bruised by, you know, Robin not saying let's be together, that that's part of his retreating to the bar, like kind of a turtle into the shell. I think we could have made that cell, but I think that's what it was.

[Josh Radnor]

You make Barney's subtext explicit, but you don't make Ted's explicit.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah. Can we get back into the episode? We could add that.

[Josh Radnor]

So. So in some ways, maybe that would have helped me feel less like Ted was a wet blanket and more like. Like, no, I'm licking my wounds. Like, my nerve endings got exposed and I got. I got singed, you know?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I think that's what it was, but we didn't quite say it enough, honestly. So I'm going to be giving notes each week on what.

[Josh Radnor]

I wish I had been thinking of that. I don't think I was thinking of that. I wish I had been thinking that. You know, I think that would have.

[Craig Thomas]

You know. What would have made you think that? If we fucking wrote it that way.

[Josh Radnor]

Hey, I can only work with what I got.

[Craig Thomas]

But that said, I adore this episode. And I think. I think probably the reason we didn't linger too much on that, we might have gotten some notes of, like, it can't just be the Ted is hung up on Robin show. It has to be fun, right? It has to be like a fun, adventurous, get them out on the town. And I think we were very, like, hung up on that. I do remember we were getting some notes from the studio network, like, all right, show some fun speeds. You're sandwiched between King of Queens and Two and a Half Men. Get the boys out on the town trying to get laid.

[Josh Radnor]

And also, they were. I think they were thinking about if someone just tunes in and they haven't seen the first two episodes, is there? Because I know there was a debate always about standalone versus kind of episodic sagas. So this is. This is a pretty standalone episode. Like, you could just stumble upon this show in 2005 of October, and you could watch it and be delighted because it presents its story and it wraps it up in 22 minutes.

[Craig Thomas]

You know, that was the mission. That was the mission of this episode. And it was sort of like almost involuntarily the mission. Because I think the Studio and the network were like, great hour long, great two parter. Now do one. That's like a little chocolate in a box of chocolates. And that's how all the CBS had comps were at the time. For better or worse. Like, I'm not even saying it as a bad thing. That's just what they did on CBS at that time. And we needed to do some of that to fit in. But what we love to do was to be more serialized. Had we had the courage to make this one a little more serialized at the beginning, I think we would have talked more about Ted bruised and licking his wounds. But we. I think we were just like, we were given the notes like, shoot these guys out of a cannon on a fun cartoon. And in a way, that is what's great about the episode. So I don't really regret it.

[Josh Radnor]

Can I ask real quick, where'd you get the. Where did the untucked shirt bit come from?

[Craig Thomas]

I don't know where that came from.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, you know what I think it was? I think for the first two episodes, I had some untucked shirts going.

[Craig Thomas]

You had untucked shirts?

[Josh Radnor]

So it was already established as a look, right?

[Craig Thomas]

It was a look. Yeah. And Barney hates tuck the shirt. Like, I think it was just Barney, like, you're unsuit, you're not in a suit. That's bad enough. But if you're gonna have a blazer and a shirt, tuck in the goddamn shirt. I think it was just Barney just wants Ted to do what he says. That's his main drive in some ways. In all of the first three episodes, that's his main drive. Maybe more than getting laid. Again, they do not hook up in this episode. It's sort of delightful because I think it really proves that thing of, like, Barney and Ted. Barney did. Ted do not get with ladies. They don't hook up together.

[Josh Radnor]

It's like, wait a minute.

[Craig Thomas]

I realize how considerate was spoilers. Barney and Ted get together at the end of season one. No. But Barney and Ted do not succeed either of them in getting the girl in this episode. And I kind of love the seeds that plants of just how Barney really doesn't. He does not have nearly the success rate. But if you really look at a lot of these episodes, he's really just. There's a lot of 83% lying happening here.

[Josh Radnor]

And I think also part of Barney's eternal fascination with Ted is he won't obey him. Like, he won't give him what he wants. He doesn't let him change his life. I mean, he does incrementally, but there's something. You know, it's kind of like Barney's. Like, a lot of seducers love the chase, but they don't like it when someone turns around and says, okay.

[Craig Thomas]

You know, it's really true. He's trying to cast a thrall over Ted in these episodes much more than over women. The end. He doesn't care. He's like, all right, we're not getting laid tonight, but we're going to do something legendary. We're going to pivot and make it a story we'll always tell. And he does. He does it. He does that magic trick. He's that friend. And I think we all have friends like this, where you're like, we never would have had that story without that friend. And that is a gift. And. Right. Life is short, and you have. You end up years and years later. What are the stories you remember? What are the stories you're going to tell? And Barney gives you that. Barney gives you that.

[Josh Radnor]

I would like to say to any of our listeners, if you have licked the Liberty Bell or if you're a security guard at the Liberty Bell and you've had to stop people or knowing what they're doing, you let them get away with it from licking the Liberty Bell. We'd like to hear from you. We'd like. We'd like to hear what your experience was with that. We're not endorsing or encouraging the Liberty Bell.

[Craig Thomas]

Not endorsing it. But if you've already done it and you took a picture of it, we would like to see. Don't go do it.

[Josh Radnor]

Go to waste.

[Craig Thomas]

It's. If you did it.

[Alec Lev]

Yeah, yeah. At how we. Major. At how. What's the.

[Josh Radnor]

How we made your mother dot com.

[Alec Lev]

How we made your mother on Instagram.

[Josh Radnor]

How we made your mother.com and go to contact. Yeah, yeah, right.

[Alec Lev]

Let us. Absolutely. I have a question. I've already been. My mind's already been blown in these first two episodes about Barney in particular. I have the good fortune of a terrible memory. So I am watching this show almost new. I have forgotten quite a bit along the way and the idea of Barney being. I'm going to compare it, as I will do several times, to Eyes Wide Shut to Stanley Kubrick. So there's a scene at the end of Eyes Wide Shut where Sidney Pollock explains everything to Tom Cruise. That just happened in this movie. People complained about this as you're just telling him over this. The end. And it was years later that A writer pointed out, you don't have to believe what he's saying. Maybe he's lying the whole time.

[Craig Thomas]

Right.

[Alec Lev]

That gives you a whole new. Oh, right, you've made a big assumption. But hold on. Same thing with Barney. I think that. And maybe it's my bad memory, the idea that he's making a lot of his stories up or that he's not the Lothario and he hasn't been with that many women is kind of new in my head right now. And maybe I'm just forgetting things that I should have known when you were writing him, when you were first creating him. I know he's based on some. Some people that you knew. What was the essence of it? Was it we need this kind of wild guy character who's gonna all be about the hunt. Was it we need a kind of broken soul who's covering it with this adventure?

[Craig Thomas]

It was wanting to see the broken soul beneath toxic masculinity. It was wanting to parody toxic masculinity and then humanize it by showing all of the broken parts underneath. And then you do nine seasons of it. And along the way, sometimes it just becomes like, let's do a funny joke about Barney trying to get laid. And you kind of lose some of that at moments. But I think the through line for me and why. Why I don't look at it like, oh, we couldn't get away with that today. The intention was always, let's show how broken this guy is underneath his suit and then show hints of him trying to grow and heal throughout the series and end him up somewhere different than he started.

[Josh Radnor]

And I also think, whatever. Whether you're a guy who's obsessed with getting laid and meeting women and not that successful at it, or you're part of, like, pickup culture and you actually are successful with it, both of them carry a lot of pain underneath them. They do. You don't behave that way single mindedly and almost psychotically. If you're not feeling some sort of great absence at the center of your heart, 100%.

[Craig Thomas]

It's like an addiction. It's like filling a hole. It really is a missing piece in somebody. That's how I look at Barney, and that's why I have such. I find him so endearing in these early episodes because I see that spark. I see that initial idea in him in these episodes.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, one of the fascinating, I think, kind of tensions in the show is I think Ewan Carter would say, no, we always saw him as kind of sad and broken, but trying and he doesn't get laid nearly as much as he claims to. Whereas I think Neil would disagree with you. I think Neil thought Neil played him as if he was getting laid every night.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And I think that's some of the interesting tension of the character.

[Craig Thomas]

Well, it's funny because Neil. I mean, it was like a superhero outfit Neil had to put on every week. Right. It was Batman. It was Iron Man. He had to put this on and be that superhero and perform that and believe his own stories. And then those moments where we did have him step out of that and show some other side, they were very effective because of how much he had committed to the first thing.

[Josh Radnor]

And I always found myself more jealous of the other characters. Cause I thought they all had costumes that I wasn't allowed to wear.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Like, I thought they all had some armor up around them.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radnor]

That allowed them to, I don't know, float through the. The world of how I met your mother in a less just vulnerable way. I mean, everyone had their vulnerable moments. To be sure. I'm not taking that away from anyone, but Ted just. He didn't have that armor. I had to kind of have my nerve endings exposed for nine years.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, you were on your own a lot of the time. Because Marshall had Lily, and that meant sort of Siegel had Hannigan to bond with. Robin was supposed to be this thing Ted couldn't have. Right. You couldn't fully connect that character. Those two characters weren't gonna get together right away. And Barney's inside this Darth Vader outfit. And Ted is a little bit like on his own little island. You know, he's almost everybody.

[Josh Radnor]

But, like, no one likes first dates. I mean, most of them are bad. And Ted had hundreds. You know, like, there is a feeling that he couldn't settle. He couldn't land the plane of what he most wanted. But I think also, much like Barney, everyone, when I was editing my first movie, I worked with this great editor, Michael Miller, for both my movies. And he used to say, movies and television are very different for this one reason. In movies, you have to show transformation in 90 minutes or two hours. Because that's the whole time you have allotted in tv. If you're gonna change them at all, it's so incremental because you're trying to keep people watching. And you're kind of hitting these same things now. I think you guys split the difference on this really well in terms of letting characters evolve over nine years. But still, they would come back to what was in their DNA pretty regularly.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That was always the balancing act. That was always. We don't want to be stuck in the same rut. We want to change them up, but they have to sort of have a through line. And Ted changed season to season, but there were moments where. Yeah, there were so moments where Ted had to be the vulnerable one, where you had to sort of put your heart out there to get sort of stomped on.

[Josh Radnor]

We've talked about this, and we will talk about this more, but the first two seasons, I think I really was looking for, how am I similar to this guy? And then at some point, I just went off in different directions, and I thought, no, that's not even psychologically helpful anymore. I'm just going to play him as a character. And I didn't take it as personally. I didn't, you know? And so in some ways, I think I played it better that way by recognizing, like, this is a job. This is a guy. He's not me. But you have to. You've only got yourself to use. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Do you think even unconsciously, playing Ted for that long made you want to be less like Ted in your personal life in some way? Did it make you not want to settle down and find the girl and have that be your main drive? Did it make you want to go have more adventures?

[Josh Radnor]

Well, I didn't get married until pretty late, so maybe.

[Craig Thomas]

You know what I mean? Like, that's part of what I mean. Do you think that informed that at all? Like, even on some very deep unconscious level where you're like, I'm. I did this thing for a decade. I'm not gonna try to. I'm gonna try to be something else in my life. I just wonder if one informed the other.

[Josh Radnor]

I'd have to pay you a couple hundred dollars and have you be accredited in a different way for me to. To start answering that. All right, Craig. Well, this is the part of the episode where we turn to our listener. Viewer mail. Do we have a title for this segment yet?

[Craig Thomas]

I was pitching how we read your letter, but how we read your letter.

[Josh Radnor]

Is, I think, pretty good.

[Craig Thomas]

All right, let's go with it.

[Josh Radnor]

It's thematically consistent.

[Craig Thomas]

Let's do it. Branded. Hashtag branded.

[Josh Radnor]

Welcome to how we Read your letter. If you want to write into us and tell us what How I Met yout Mother means to you or any other beautiful, beloved. Hilarious. How I Met yout Mother related story, go to how we madeyourmother.com, go to contact. And it should be pretty clear from there. Right, Alec?

[Craig Thomas]

We love hearing from you guys.

[Josh Radnor]

Please do. Yeah, we do. We really do. This is very meaningful to hear these letters. I'm going to read one. This is from Serenity. Hi, Josh. Hi, Serenity. How I Met yout Mother has been my favorite show and has deeply impacted my life. I've watched it literally countless times now. Growing up, I have the complete series in DVD form. The show deeply resonates with me. It taught me the importance of patience, vulnerability, and staying true to what I want in life. It made me believe that true love is worth waiting for and that every moment, good or bad, shapes who we become. I often find myself thinking about lessons from the show when navigating my own life. It has influenced the way I approach love, friendship, and how I view the world in general. It's a reminder to keep believing in love, to cherish the people around me, and to never give up on my dreams, no matter how far away they might seem. Thank you for bringing Ted to life in such an authentic way. Your performance and the lessons the show expressed will always hold a special place in my heart and continue to shape who I am as a person. Wishing you the best, Serenity.

[Craig Thomas]

How nice is that? Thank you. Serenity.

[Josh Radnor]

So beautiful. You know what occurred to me, Craig, when we're talking about, you know, part of this show is the mystery of what it is about this show. Why it's so beloved, why people keep watching it and watching it and showing it to their kids and quoting it. As I was reading that, I thought there's something about movies and tv. A lot of it presents an incredibly idealized version of life.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radnor]

And a sanitized version of life.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radnor]

And I think something people find relieving about this show is it's actually. It's about as much about good times as bad times as good times. It's about people getting knocked down, holding those they love close and moving forward. You know, wounded, but moving forward. It's really a show. I think a big word is resilience. Certainly for Ted. When people say, why do you love Ted? I said, he's resilient. He's the most resilient character.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, he's like a bobblehead or like, you know, those things get knocked down, they just pop back up. And I think that there's something people need to be reminded. Life is not a series. You don't go from triumph to triumph to triumph. That's not. That's not a life you would want to live. And it's not a life where you're going to learn all that much. And when people talk about the most, most meaningful moments of their life, it's generally related to some heartbreak or setback or failure where they were able to reassess, reprioritize, and how Married Mother is just laced through with all of that.

[Alec Lev]

As I was listening to that letter, I was thinking, even with the shows I absolutely love, are there any other shows that someone would say this about? They've influenced the way I approach love, friendship, and how I view the world in general. Like, that's the. That Seinfeld.

[Craig Thomas]

That was our. That was our move. We committed to our move very hard. We were not the funniest show. We were not the most joke dense show. I remember watching other shows like 30 Rock and being like, God damn, they've got more jokes than we do, and feeling insecure about it. But we said, no, it's okay. We're in our lane. We're funny too. But we're going to do this other thing. We're going to throw a bunch of the bandwidth at this other thing. And in the end, it seems to be what has resonated with people for the most.

[Josh Radnor]

But it's interesting because I think part of the long tail of it, because you encoded that into the DNA, it made it into a classic, and it made it into a show that people still are watching and talk about. Because if you're gonna do. This is not a slam against any show, but if you're gonna do purely a joke show, you actually are in danger of it aging pretty quickly. Because tastes in comedy change.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes. And references change.

[Josh Radnor]

And references change. But if you do a show that's really about these perennial ideas about love, friendship, family, resilience, good times, bad times, weathering good times and bad times, like you're you, you have a better shot at creating something a little more timeless.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, it's kind of, are you a cartoon or are you a movie? Even if you're a sitcom, you can steer it either way. And we're definitely more a movie and occasionally a cartoon by a Barney. Okay, Speaking of amazing letters from our fans, this letter comes from Vic. I'm really appreciative you shared this. I'm going to try to not get emotional while I read this one. Okay, here we go. Him has a special place in my heart that it's hard to put into words. It was the one thing that brought me comfort in the most difficult time of my life. My son was born needing an Organ Transplant, 2011, which meant we lived in the hospital for months at a time. I was already a fan watched on television, but it was the seasons on DVD that ultimately allowed me to, if only even for an episode, unload all of the worry and stress and just laugh and get lost in all the amazingly written, directed acted adventures with the gang. Season one is classic. Starting to set up the gags and groundwork for our group. I apologize for the length of this. I appreciate whoever reads this. Thank you Craig Thomas and Carter Bayes, and thank you, Josh Radner, for bringing Ted to life for so many years. Thank you all for creating and producing this podcast. I want to talk about why that means so much to me and I'll definitely talk about this more later in the podcast when we get up to the part in the series where I went through something very similar to this. Between year two and three of How I Met yout Mother, my son was born and we had no idea until he was born that he had something called Jacobson Syndrome, which meant it's a genetic deletion where he's missing a part of one of his 11th chromosomes. It meant that he needed open heart surgery at two weeks old, weighing about three and a half pounds. It meant that he would have lifelong health problems and developmental challenges. It meant that he would be, you know, he would be on a different journey. He would be, we would be now special needs parents and we would be, we would be living sort of a different life than we thought we would be. And then it was, you know, year three began and it was like, let's get back into the writer's room. We always, I always used to joke to Carter, now go be funny. You just. We spent six weeks in the NICU, the neonatal intensive care unit at Children's Hospital of LA, which saved my son's life. Thank you, Chla. And you know, my son is 17 now and doing great. And the making of the show, when we went back and started doing season three, getting the escape of making this show with these wonderful people who I loved and all the writers and Pam Freyman and Susie and Josh Radner and the whole cast getting to escape into this other universe that was a universe full of love. A show about love and a show about the hard times. Making those episodes got me through the darkest time in my life. So then when I hear from fans, as we just did with that letter, that the show helped them get through their hard time while it did that for me. And I think some of that energy made it into the show as everybody on the show rallied around me. Josh, you rallied around me. You would always. We would sit there and have long talks after the. After rap at the bar. And we would sit there and we would talk about what I was going through and Pam Freeman would be there and Susie and Carter and all the writers. And it just meant the world to me. And I think the show sort of took on some of that energy for me and with me. And when I hear that, it connects to people to this day who've gone through things like that. Like, I know what it's like to be in that nicu, in that hospital for weeks and weeks on end not knowing if your kid's gonna live or die. And my son could have not made it, but he made it and he's 17 now. And yeah, I just. That was my journey throughout the middle part of How Met yout Mother. And now I just have this wonderful human being who's 17 who I play music with. He plays the drums, I play the guitar. He's got all these amazing strengths and things I never could have imagined when he was first born and so many gifts. And I will just say now, thank you, Vic, for sharing that story. It means the world to me. It's what I went through. The fact that it helped the show, helped you get through what you were going through and even in some small way means the world. That's why. That's why the show. That's why we made the show. That's what the show was to me in making the show. So thank you so much. And I would just say that we will talk more about this. We will talk about. More about how sort of this big life chapter change for me and what I went through sort of informed how much yout mother and those seasons and stuff. We're not there yet. We just finished talking about episode three, so I won't belabor it for too long, but I will say Josh and Alec and my wonderful friends making this podcast with me have all embraced sort of the fundraising and the cause that helps kids like my son. That is part of the podcast thanks to them. And if you go to our website, how we madeyourmother.com and you go to the section called how youw Make a Difference, you can read all about the work being done by this amazing doctor named Dr. Paul Grossfeld out of UCSD Rady's Children's Hospital in San Diego. And he is the worldwide expert in Jacobson Syndrome. He is working to do research to help kids born with congenital heart defects of all different kinds, including the. My son had, including Jacobson Syndrome and the specifics about that and the developmental stuff. He is like the worldwide expert in my son's condition, among many other things, and a great dude and he's like the best dude in the world that Josh and I and we've all become dear friends with him now. The impact he's made on my life and the community of parents like me, it can't be overstated. He's like a guiding light as this candle in the darkness. And so we raise money for him via this podcast. So please go to how we madeyourmother.com, click on Make a Difference and you can read about that work. If you feel like supporting this amazing work, this like groundbreaking life saving work that Paul Grossfeld does in San Diego, please if you can contribute and support or get the word out about it, we'd be honored. And thank you so much to everybody out there and the himyum fandom for sharing your vulnerability and sharing your life stories with me to this effect.

[Josh Radnor]

Fact.

[Craig Thomas]

It means the world to me to hear it, so thank you.

[Josh Radnor]

I am guilty. Please acquit me. All sins are forgiven in New York City.

[Alec Lev]

How WE Made your Mother is hosted and executive produced by Josh Radner and Craig Thomas. The show was produced by me, Alec Lev and our co producer is Doug Matica. Our audio producer and mixer is Alex Reeves at Point of Blue Studios. Artwork by John Morrow. Please follow rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or your podcast player of choice. It really does help the show. Our theme song is NYC by our own Josh Radner. Special thanks to Lola Kennedy and Elliot Connors. Visit how we madeyourmother.com to sign up for our Substack mailing list and for links to our social media. You can also click on the contact page to send us an email or a voice message. Your stories and questions are an important part of the show. Subscribe to Josh Radner's Muse letters on Substack. Read Craig Thomas published [e-mail] and you can subscribe to My Dead Father Society also on Substack to learn about how you make a difference. This shows on ongoing campaign to raise money for congenital heart disease research. Check out the Make a Difference tab at the top of our website. This episode was made possible by the support of Backyard Ventures Marketing provided by Tink Media. People will in fact dance the real.

[Josh Radnor]

Question it just hit me. Am I in love with you or just New York City?

[Alec Lev]

Terry.