How We Met a Listener: Jessica [SPOILER Alert!]

Summary

How We Made Your Mother – Episode Summary
Podcast: How We Made Your Mother
Episode: How We Met a Listener: Jessica [SPOILER Alert!]
Hosts: Josh Radnor & Craig Thomas
Guest: Jessica
Release Date: April 13, 2026

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Episode Overview

This very special episode centers on a moving and deeply personal listener story from Jessica, a longtime fan of How I Met Your Mother (HIMYM). Hosted by series star Josh Radnor and co-creator Craig Thomas, the discussion delves into the show’s legacy, the controversial finale, grief, love, and how art resonates differently as we live through profound personal experiences.

Major Spoiler Warning: The episode discusses the HIMYM final episodes and the fate of major characters, as well as themes of death, loss, and grief.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction & Framing of the Episode

• [02:42] Craig and Josh emphasize this is a “spoiler-heavy” episode, unlike their week-to-week recaps. It’s not just a recap, but “one of the most special episodes” they’ve done.
• [03:26] Josh gently warns listeners about the “deeply into loss and grief” nature of the discussion and invites those not ready for these themes to skip and return later.

2. Jessica’s Voice Note

• [07:11-11:15] The heart of the episode is a voice note Jessica sent a year prior, recounting her journey with HIMYM and its parallel to her loss.
• Key contents of the note:
  • Jessica started watching HIMYM in 2005, shortly after moving to NYC, mirroring the show’s setting and themes.
  • After marriage and parenthood, her husband succumbed to a congenital heart condition in March, just before the podcast launched.
  • The show’s finale, in which Ted loses Tracy, suddenly felt vivid and real after her own loss, transforming her understanding and appreciation of the ending.
  • “That ending was real because I felt it.” ([10:50])
  • The podcast became “medicine for the soul” during her grieving process.

3. Jessica’s Experience – Grief, Identity, and the Show’s Meaning

• [11:47] Jessica reflects on her voice note, noting how grief “grows with you.” She describes the moment as “authentic”—a window into early, raw stages of mourning.
• [14:43] Jessica recalls her “pre-finale” relationship with HIMYM:
  • Loved the ensemble, found it “so relatable” for 20-something New Yorkers.
  • Cites loving Lily’s character as a fellow teacher.
  • “I had to convince people, sometimes, like, no, there’s a laugh track, but it’s good. There’s like good stuff underneath.” ([15:20])

4. Processing the Finale – Disappointment, Growth, and Acceptance

• [20:00-24:09] Jessica explains being “surprised” (not angry) by the finale, witnessing the social media backlash but personally harboring “mixed feelings.”
• [23:04] “When someone you really love dies, you see the world differently… When someone dies, it all kind of condenses.”
• [24:09] Josh shares that disappointment over the finale was often “anger at death itself,” as it invaded a comfort show.

5. Creators’ Intent, Art, and Grief

• [25:29] Craig Thomas expounds on the show’s design to subvert fairytale endings:
  • “Ted was this planner… [the finale] shows life not going according to plan.”
  • “We thought it would be really interesting to do something different.”
  • “Some people were really angry at that, and some people really felt seen by that… Now we hear more and more nice things about the finale, and more people saying, ‘I hated it, but now I get it.’” ([27:23])
  • “Nothing’s ever solved. Life is chapters… What if we live past that chapter, can there be another whole adventure?” ([27:24])

6. Grief’s Ongoing Journey & Community

• [28:59] Jessica speaks to redefining herself post-loss:
  • “You can’t really go back to the person you used to be.”
  • The label ‘widow’ feels archaic, yet is a confronting part of her new identity.
  • Describes seeking out connection—socializing and joining a grief group for young spouses:
    • “You’re in this club you don’t want to be in, but you’re so grateful you are.” ([33:58])
  • “I’ve learned, like, that’s just how it works… you could look at a tree and just start crying for no reason.” ([32:02])

7. Art as Mirror & Teacher

• [37:57] Josh and Jessica reflect on how "good art" changes meaning as you change:
  • “Art that baffled or angered me when I was younger, now moves me…”
• [40:01] On disappointment:
  • “Disappointed is a good word… I realized that’s how you’re supposed to feel a little bit.”
  • “I think some of the fans were actually having an appropriate response, which is they felt robbed. But you know who else did? Ted.” ([40:36])
• [41:25] Craig:
  • “The whole story is leading to a question to his kids, which is—Is it okay for me to love again?”

8. Personal Parallels – The Creators’ Real-Life Heart Connections

• [43:12] Craig shares his son’s battle (and survival) with congenital heart disease during the show’s run, and how it colored the show’s arcs and themes for him:
  • “My life diverged into a different story than the one I thought.”
• [44:57] Jessica affirms the similarities, sharing her husband had “a different one [heart condition] when he was a baby,” and the challenges of choosing hospice care with no more options left. “It was like… it’s done… [the heart] doesn’t want to work for you anymore.”
• [46:56] Jessica: “He felt like his purpose was to have our child… That was the point of him being here… We built this life for 8 years and that’s maybe what he was supposed to do.”

9. Presence, Meaning, and Love

• [47:37] Josh recalls Meryl Streep’s relationship with John Cazale:
  • “It’s the saddest thing in the world, but I have never been so present with anyone in my life.”
  • “We mistake longevity for meaning, but that’s not necessarily true.”
• [49:32] Josh paraphrases John Fowles:
  • “Death is rather like a certain kind of lecturer. You don’t really hear what is being said until you’re in the front row.”
  • “Your husband’s death put you in the front row and made you reconsider the show because you could hear what it was, right?” ([49:57])
• [50:03] Jessica: “You can’t have love without grief.”
• [51:28] Josh: “The deepest lessons… come from when things get taken away and we discover who we are underneath all that.”

10. The Evolving Art and Its Endurance

• [53:35] On love, loss, and HIMYM’s lessons:
  • “Love is the best thing we do. And love doesn’t die… Ted’s love for Tracy doesn’t go away because he wants to maybe love another person.” – Craig ([53:50])
• [54:30] Josh: “My perspective on HIMYM has changed… if my wife hadn’t wanted to watch the show, and if I hadn’t called Craig, we wouldn’t be talking here to you. Everything is connected in this strange, web-patterned way.”

11. Community, Reflection, and Legacy

• [59:33] Josh and Craig reflect on the preservation and passage of memories:
  • Pictures, voice notes, and journal entries as “snapshots” of both personal and communal evolution.
  • “When we heard your message, we thought, oh, this is why we’re doing the show.” ([59:54])
• [60:53] Craig invites Jessica to be a guest at the podcast’s charity concert, symbolically welcoming her into their community.
• [61:42] Jessica: “You’ve made my year… I appreciate you guys.”

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps & Attribution)

• “That ending was real because I felt it.” — Jessica ([10:50])
• “Grief always stays with you, but it sort of grows with you.” — Jessica ([13:02])
• “When someone you really love dies, you see the world differently… all those memories… it all kind of condenses like that.” — Jessica ([23:04])
• “I think what a lot of people were mad about for the finale was they were actually angry at death itself.” — Josh ([24:09])
• “Ted was this planner, right? …the ending shows life not going according to plan.” — Craig ([25:29])
• “Can there be another whole adventure? Another whole life past what you thought was the solution to all your problems?” — Craig ([27:24])
• “You’re in this club you don’t want to be in, but you’re so grateful you are.” — Jessica ([33:58])
• “I described it to someone recently as seeing the world in 360. I see everything from all sides now.” — Jessica ([33:58])
• “There’s no static version of us. We’re always changing, but also as we change, the art we love changes with us.” — Josh ([38:45])
• “You can’t have love without grief.” — Jessica ([50:03])
• “Love is the best thing we do. And love doesn’t die.” — Craig ([53:50])
• “Everything is connected in this strange, web-patterned way, you know?” — Josh ([54:30])
• “It’s worth us having done this podcast to have met you… what a gift.” — Craig ([57:39])
• “You’ve made my year special.” — Jessica ([61:58])

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [07:11] - [11:15] Jessica’s original, moving voice note
• [13:48] Hosts’ reaction; beginning of Jessica’s interview
• [20:00] Jessica on relating to Ted and Lily as a teacher
• [23:04] Jessica’s real-life understanding of the finale’s grief
• [25:29] Craig’s explanation of creative intentions for the finale
• [28:59] Jessica on evolving identity post-loss
• [33:58] The power of grief groups and making meaning from loss
• [41:25] Analysis of the series finale as a question for Ted’s kids
• [43:12] Craig’s personal story of his son’s heart condition
• [47:37] Presence and meaning in the face of impending loss
• [49:32] John Fowles “front row” quote and shifting perspectives after loss
• [53:50] “Love is the best thing we do” reflection
• [60:53] Craig’s live invitation to Jessica to join the HIMYM community event

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Themes and Tone

The episode seamlessly blends warmth, empathy, and candid discussion of life’s hardest milestones. The tone is reflective, deeply human, compassionate, and suffused at every turn with the same emotional honesty and humor that define How I Met Your Mother.

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Conclusion

More than any mere episode breakdown, this installment embodies the transformative power of sharing stories. Jessica’s vulnerability offers a bridge between fan and creator, a testament to how art can be both a mirror and a balm—especially when we are, as many HIMYM fans once felt, “robbed” by life’s plot twists. In bringing her experience to light, the hosts reaffirm the show’s core lesson: love endures, life changes, and in the end, meaning blooms not from the plan, but from what we are able to make of the unexpected together.

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Friend of the Pod Note:
Jessica is warmly welcomed into the How We Made Your Mother community, symbolizing the reciprocal gratitude between creators and fans.

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For further listening:
Visit howwemadeyourmother.com for more stories, to leave your own, and find information on their annual charity concert supporting research on congenital heart disease.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, Josh, you know what? Holiday's coming up fast.

[B]

Tu bishvat?

[A]

No.

[B]

Purim?

[A]

No.

[B]

Arbor Day.

[A]

0 for 3. Mother's Day is coming up super fast. And why is this Mother's Day different from all other Mother's Days?

[B]

Oh, I see where you're going. I see where you're going.

[A]

See what I'm doing?

[B]

I'm working on it because my wife and I had a baby. Oh, yeah. This is the first Mother's Day. Just adding one more holiday that I'm gonna be honoring my. My wife.

[A]

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[B]

Oh, she'll love this. Ships fast, which is helpful if you're a last minute shopper. And some dads and husbands tend to be only 100%.

[A]

Packaging is beautiful and thoughtful, so she'll also like the package.

[B]

She'll find the pieces easy to wear and super comfort. You can get 20% off your first order with Jenny Bird by visiting jenny-bird.com and using code Mother at checkout. Craig. Josh, we live in a pretty expensive city. It's called New York City.

[A]

That's what it's called.

[B]

And they say that it costs about $100 to just step out of your apartment in New York City. Yeah. And you know, you get your meal here, a coffee. There's a little thing here. A little thing. Next thing you know, by the end of the month, that's all added up. But Rocket Money will help you see exactly where all your money was going and help you keep track of it.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Craig Thomas here. Josh Radner. We just wanted to start off this episode is a very special episode of the podcast. It is rife with spoilers for the end of the series and the entire sort of forward jumping through the entire series, which we do not do week to week, episode to episode in our recap episodes. This is definitely not that it is big spoilers. It is how the series ends. It is major spoilers. Let's salute it. And we will salute it so that you will recognize that if you don't want to hear major spoilers, please don't listen to this one. But if you do want to hear that and you do know where we go with the series, please do listen to this one. Because as you're going to hear, it's really one of the most special episodes of this podcast that we've ever done.

[B]

Yeah. And also we just wanted to if you're feeling particularly sensitive right now, you have every reason to. The world is a very tough place. This episode does go very deeply into loss and grief and death. So if this isn't where you are right now, also feel free to skip it and come back to it another time. But we do think this is an incredibly special, wonderful episode of How We Made youe Mother. And we're really happy you're here, Sabina. A very special edition of How We Made youe Mother. I'm Josh Radner. I'm joined by my co host and dear friend, Craig Thomas. Hi, Craig.

[A]

Hey, Josh.

[B]

Hey. So regular listeners of this podcast will know that one of the things, one of our favorite things about the show is hearing from fans, longtime viewers, new viewers even. But we have a thing on the website, how we madeyourmother.com, where you can go, we'll tell you how to do it. You can go to contact and you can either send us a voice note or send us a written note. And we start every show, most shows with a voice note we have received. And at the end of the show, we read a letter we've received. And it's just been this very special way that we have learned how the show has affected people, how it's continued to affect people, changed their lives when they discovered it, what it meant to them, continues to mean to them. And about a year ago, one of the earliest voice notes we received right after the show premiered was from a woman named Jessica who shared with us her story about how I met your mother. And we were absolutely bowled over by this note. So bowled over that we wanted to create a whole episode around this note. And we wanted to invite Jessica onto the show. She's here with us right now, but we're not going to introduce her just yet. We want to. We want to actually play you the note we received. And again, this is a full on bubble wrapped spoiler alert episode in terms of if you have not seen the finale, if you've not gotten all the way to the end of this series and you don't want to see spoil this, don't listen to this episode for a while.

[A]

We're breaking every rule today. We're pretty good every time. We're not jumping ahead and giving huge, serious spoilers. Today's the. The huge exception to that rule. So if you don't want to hear huge spoilers, turn it off now. But otherwise, please listen if you know where the series ends up. Because, yeah, we want you to hear this.

[B]

And in a show that really honors nonlinear narrative, I feel like we're doing that here today.

[A]

Huge flash forward right now. Huge flash forward in the podcast timeline.

[B]

Yeah. So. So again, we received this note from Jessica. We were so moved by it. We've been sitting with this note for about a year, and we knew we wanted to do something special with it. So this whole episode is kind of centered around that. But before we launch into it, we're just going to play you the note. So this is the note we received, the voice note we received one year ago.

[C]

Hi, my name is Jessica. I live in Brooklyn, New York. How I met your mother has meant a lot of things to me over the years and recently came back into my life through circumstances I've been in.

[D]

When I started watching How I met

[C]

your mother, it was in 2005 when it aired. I had just moved to New York a year prior. I had a group of friends I hung out with sometimes in bars. I was perpetually single and trying to find that special person, imagining I'd meet them in that typical way that you imagine in the movies where someone drops their groceries and you both lean down to pick them up and make that eye contact.

[D]

Fast forward.

[C]

A lot of mishap, dating. That really related to that show to me, and it's amazing this podcast came up when it did. So I got married when I was in my mid-30s. I had a child of 39 with an amazing guy that I met in Brooklyn, and we built a family together. We were together for eight years and married for five. My husband was born with a congenital heart defect, and he lived his life with this for a long time. Had to go in the hospital a few times in his life, but always did well. And he almost got a heart transplant recently because he got very sick at the end of December, right after Christmas, and came home for a bit, had to go back to the hospital. It was a whirlwind of things. And then he didn't qualify for the heart transplant, and that was very hard. So we had to make a decision as a family that he was going to die, and we did that. And he went to palliative care, which is essentially care instead of treatment, and later to hospice. And in the last hospital he went to, which was in Brooklyn, which was closer to home, as I was walking home from visiting him one day,

[D]

I

[C]

realized, oh, my God, Ted's wife died. And the ending of this show, that used to make me so confused sometimes, because I loved her so miliotti, and I loved the relationship that her intent had. And I realized in that moment that that was. The point, is that you were supposed to love her and want them to be together forever, but it just wasn't meant to be. But you can have more than one

[D]

love in your life.

[C]

My husband died on March 9, the day before your podcast aired.

[D]

And I just found it so appropriate

[C]

and so crazy, the timing of it all.

[D]

Hearing about yout Mother is a very

[C]

important show to me, and it's paralleled

[D]

my life in some ways, but it's

[C]

also just very humorous and funny and silly, and I've always been rooting for it all the time.

[D]

But it's also very grounding.

[C]

It's a grounding show, and it's real. People were so upset about the ending, but that ending was real because I felt it.

[D]

And I thank you for being there

[C]

for me right after my husband's death, because this podcast is really, really touching me in a deep way. And thank you, Josh, for. For opening back up to this world,

[D]

because that means a lot to me,

[C]

too, and I think you're great. Thank you.

[B]

So that was a note from Jessica. We're all. We're all moved over here, and you can understand, I'm sure, why that note affected us the way it did and why it stayed with us. And, yeah, Jessica's here. We just really want to welcome her to the show. Hi, Jessica.

[D]

How are you?

[B]

Hi, Jessica. Welcome to How We Made youe Mother. We're good, thank you. We're so happy you're here, and we're

[D]

so happy that I'm happy to be here.

[B]

Yeah, we're so happy you left us that note. And I'm curious, what. What's it like to hear. To hear that back? Like. Like, do you feel like you said. I. I feel like you said exactly what you needed to say, but do you feel that you really captured what. What you felt?

[D]

Yeah, I do. Because I didn't write anything down. I knew that. So. So I sent that note only a few weeks after my husband passed away, like, in April.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And I really felt like I needed to share a little bit of my story because the podcast helped me so much. Like, the fact that it was airing, like, on March 10th. Like, I literally went, oh, my God. I have something to, like, look forward to. I have something to be excited about. And the fact that you can leave voice messages and do that kind of thing made me very. So, yeah, I feel like it's very authentic. And when I hear it now, I really feel like how much I've progressed since then. I mean, grief. Grief always stays with you, but it sort of grows with you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

As you evolve over time. And I feel like I hear where I was in my voice, like, where I was in that moment.

[A]

So moving. And by the way, just to say, like, we're so sorry for your loss and we're so sorry for your loss and that, you know, that you had to go through that. But thank you for sharing that moment back then, at that time when it was so new and so fresh and raw, the idea that you would be so generous to us to share that with us, like, as artists, I guess we're putting stuff out in the world, hoping it connects with people and, like, the gift of getting to hear what that meant to you and even what the podcast means to you. I just hope you know what a gift and how generous that was of you to share that with us. So just first off, thank you.

[D]

Thank you.

[B]

Yeah. So, Jessica, I want to just take you back when you. So you started watching. You said right when it. Around when it premiered. Right. 2005.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That was right around the time you moved to New York.

[D]

Yeah, it was in my early 20s. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. So you were kind of. You were like, living this. How I met your mother life actually in New York City. While we were fictionally, you are our target audience in Los Angeles. Fake living New York City life. And you said that it really resonated with you. You know, you're spending time in bars with friends you're dating. There's mishaps you're hoping to meet someone, it's working out. It's not working out. Like all the stuff of your 20s and your early 30s. And so it seems like you. What did the show mean to you? Before we get to the finale, what was the show to you?

[D]

First of all, I think it's a really great ensemble show. And I love ensemble shows in general. Meaning that all of the actors, you too, Josh, were very good at portraying their characters and were like perfect casting, I felt. And when you have a show like that, I feel like the story just kind of lends itself to being so relatable. I also felt like for some people, I knew it was a hard show to get into for them, and I didn't know why. And I would have to convince people sometimes, like, no, like there's a laugh track, but it's like, good. There's like, good stuff underneath.

[B]

Like, hey, we have the same issue too. We'll be right back. So if you've been following the news, you've probably heard quite a bit about GLP1s. This is weight loss medication that is having a profound effect on society. Two things, Craig, that I have heard that I thought were astonishing. One, and we have, we have fact checked this, that airplanes going from New York to LA and LA to New York are needing less jet fuel because the passengers weigh less.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

How about that?

[A]

That's amazing. That's a fun fact. That's a legit fun fact.

[B]

Probably good for the environment. And also, jewelers are being besieged with people needing their wedding ring resized.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Because fingers are shrinking.

[A]

I hope people aren't rethinking the whole marriage part. They're like, well, the ring doesn't know it's for you. They stay married. They just fix the ring.

[B]

No, they're just retooling. They're not thinking it has anything to

[A]

do with their marriage.

[B]

They're just getting a ring resized.

[A]

I was scared.

[B]

So if people are looking for a good, fast, safe shipment of GLP1s, where can they go? Craig? Tell us.

[A]

They can go to Roe, Josh. That's where they can go. Even though I didn't know those fun facts, I know this fun fact. Go to ro. If I needed this product, it's what I'd use. These medications are not just about weight loss, though. People are seeing better lab numbers, more energy, fewer cravings, and new levels of confidence. And now there's a new option. A pill that delivers the same ingredient as the GLP1 shots. No needles, right? You just take a pill.

[B]

If you don't like needles, they got

[A]

the pills, but in a more convenient, approachable way. Just one daily pill can help patients feel fuller and curb cravings. With results comparable to those injections, people can lose about 14% of their body weight in a year. See aforementioned planes. Josh that's amazing. Ro offers the first FDA approved GLP1 pill for weight loss at the lowest cost along with a full suite of brand name GLP1s with a robody membership. You get unlimited provider messaging, side effect management and dosing support. All for just $45 for your first month and $145 every month thereafter. Starting as fast after your first online visit you you could be on medication in less than a week, paying cash or around two weeks with insurance.

[B]

Go to Roe Co yourmother to see if you're eligible for the new GLP1 pill on RO. That's RO CO your mother. To get started on RO, go to RO Safety for boxed warning and full safety information about GLP1 medications based on study in non diabetics with obesity or overweight plus a weight related condition with diet and exercise have you ever felt

[E]

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[F]

And now back to the show.

[D]

A lot of women I know call in and say they relate to Ted or, you know, and that kind of thing. I definitely related to that character. I also had friends that had a best friend that got married in her early 20s or mid-20s. So I had a friend that was getting married already. I had friends in long term relationships. So I kind of related to this idea of being like the single person trying to find my way and navigate the world. So that's what related me to the show at first. And I also just thought it was funny. I don't know. And relatable. I don't know. I just liked it. And Lily was a teacher and I'm a teacher, so I really.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And you're a teacher of young kids, right?

[D]

Yes.

[A]

Right. Do you work with younger kids? Just like Lily was. She was a kindergarten teacher. And so that's where you're at too. Or where you were at then, anyway, in your educational career. Cool.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know, sometimes I think we want to watch shows that take place in outer space or the middle ages, but another pleasure of TV and movies is watching this could be me. Or that happened to me. Or that might have happened to me. It's nice to see your own life reflected back in a somewhat heightened but realistic way. So, yeah, I really understand that. And so just flash forward a little bit to the finale. So this is a show you love dearly. You said you loved Cristin Miliotti and Ted and Tracy's relationship. And so did you watch the finale, like, with a group of people? Did you watch it by yourself? Like, what do you remember?

[D]

I think I was by myself. I can't remember. But I do remember being surprised by it.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

At the time. But then I remember the next day there was like this. There were like articles about it. Like, everyone's up in arms about. I was like, wow. I was like, okay. So I. I didn't have that big of a reaction, but I was a little like, people were angry.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And I. I had mixed feelings about it.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

I. But I felt like. I felt like, okay with it, but I had mixed feelings. But it was. It was in that moment when I was. It's weird how that happened in such a real moment where I'm leaving the hospital, then I'm thinking about how I met your mother. But like. But like. Because I had so many small moments in the show that related to my life. Sometimes, like, it just felt like, like, oh, I get it now. Because when someone. When someone you really love dies, you. You see the world differently. Even though I thought I had life experiences and I had all these experiences, you. And I think in that show. And I don't know if you guys intended this, but it felt like meeting Tracy when we did was very intentional because, like, it felt like, oh, they're supposed to be together for like, 11 years. Is that right?

[A]

Yeah. And that's something like that. I. I don't. Yeah, yeah, it's in that zone. Yeah. We'll double tag later.

[D]

Yeah. And, like. But, you know, I think fans are upset because it felt so short, but they're. They're. Their journey together didn't feel so short, but when someone dies, it all kind of condenses like that, like all those memories. So to me, like, I connected to it in that way.

[B]

Yeah. So I remember we had this How I Met yout Mother podcast while the show was on the air that Alec, our current producer, was. He was in charge of all the digital content, but he also hosted and produced the podcast and he had me on for. Maybe Alec can fact check this. I don't know if it was the last podcast we officially did, but I'd been on it a number of times. But it was the last one we did, and we went really deep on the finale. And I remember Alex said something to me that. That really stayed with me. He said, I think what a lot of people were mad about for the finale was they were actually angry at death itself. Like, the fact of death, like. Like they were angry that it intruded upon their light. Fun New York City show.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And especially when you're dealing with people in their 20s and 30s, you're. You're hoping that death does not invade or touch that. You know, maybe a parent or a grandparent or whatever. But, you know, and this is maybe a question for Craig, but we introduce, you know, I think if you look at How I Met yout Mother and you. And you look at it, bird's eye, you know, 360, like, really get up high and look at it. Not episode to episode, but the arc of the show. It's about time. It's about loss. It's about change of expectation. You know, no one quite got what they wanted and when they wanted it. And, you know, it's always the universe had different plans than you had. So I think that, you know, Craig, maybe you can Speak to this. But Craig and Carter really wove in the seed. They planted the seeds for something much more meaningful, much more depth filled than your average kind of laugh track sitcom. And I think that was confusing to people because a laugh track kind of promises bright lights, happy ending at the end of each episode. It's all going to resolve itself. It's diversion from your hard work day Americans. Like it's all going to be okay. And you know, Craig, can you speak to that a little bit like. Like what you and Carter were up to the long game of it.

[A]

Yeah. You know, I. Ted was this planner, right? Ted was this architect. We meet him in the pilot. He's planning out everything that his wedding is going to be, that he hasn't even met the woman yet, but he knows he's just down to whether it's a band or dj. Everything else is pretty much worked out. And that's the pilot, that's the first episode. And then 206 episodes later, we sort of approach this ending that, that shows life not going according to plan. And I think that was hard for a bunch of people. It was a very divisive finale because there were people who loved the idea that this was showing the messiness of life and the chaos of life. And then there were people who really wished it had just had the more neat romantic comedy ending that didn't touch upon those things at all. And it is strange to see a laugh track TV show try to touch upon grief and loss and cover, you know, decades in an hour long episode and touch upon. Yeah, touch upon things not going according to plan. Our premise was there's so many romantic comedies and so many movies and fairy tales and stories and books and series that have that neat ending. And if you want that, there's a lot of other versions of that you can go get in pop culture and literature. Like there's a lot of that. And we thought it would be really interesting to do something different. And it seems to resonate more. It seems to resonate more and more with people. As we all get older and grow up, we hear more and more nice things about the finale and more and more people saying, I hated it, but now I get it. And never more movingly or eloquently, Jessica, than the way you put it in that voice memo.

[D]

Thank you.

[A]

And again, we're so grateful to hear that from you and to get that essentially the finale aired 12 years ago now, something like that coming up on 12 years. And to get to hear from you what it was to you then and what it is to you now and even a year past the voice memo, it's maybe something different, right? You listened to your own message just now and said, boy, that was also a different me. And that's the other huge, huge premise of the show, that there's never and there's nothing's ever solved. It's not like now I'm the person I'm always going to be in the chapter that's always going to exist in these ingredients of life that will never change. No, life is these chapters. And we all, we're sold this fairy tale and it's all going to work out and we're all going to meet the one. But what if the one, what if we live past that chapter? Can there be another one? Can there be another whole adventure? Can there be another whole life past what you thought was the solution to all of your problems? And you know, we were playing with those kinds of ideas. It didn't hit everyone. Some people were really angry at that and some people really felt seen by that even at the time. And now it's interesting to have 12 years of hearing people live life and think about it in their life. And we're again so grateful to hear, hear from you about it, Jessica. Like, but it seems like I'd love to hear more about what it's been like in this past year for you too. I mean, I have so many questions for you, but what is this past year? Who are you a year ago? And who are you? What has that grief journey been like?

[D]

Oh, that's a big question. Who am I now? Well, you know, so I have a son, I have a five year old son. So it's transitioning from, you know, being a family to being a single parent. So that's been a big change. And just I think, I think the biggest thing is, and I'm still doing it, but finding who you are in all of this, when you're with someone for eight years, even though I had a life before I met my husband, because I didn't get married till my mid-30s, we didn't really get together until that time. You, you can't really go back to the person you used to be. You've kind of become this person in your marriage and you become a family, you become this unit. And then, and then it just swiftly changes. And so, you know, and if you look at things, I think the hardest thing for me was like going to the doctor's office and changing my status to widow, which seems like such an archaic, simple thing. But it was hard for me to see myself that way.

[A]

It really does sound like the 1800s or something. Yes.

[D]

Yeah. But it's like, I'm not a couple. I'm not a thing. I'm just. That's. That's. That's, you know. Right. Like that. But even though I don't have to label myself that way, those little things were really hard for me. But it feels like a transformation. I describe to people, and I'm usually a super positive person, but you get into really dark places when you go through grief. And I haven't really experienced grief in this capacity in my life before. I've lost an aunt, I've lost a grandparent. But this is very different

[C]

on your

[D]

psyche, because I think your brain wants the person to be there, and you think they're there, but your body and your brain do these crazy things, and you make choices and decisions and you're like, I don't know if that was the right decision. But I feel like one of the things I was doing, which is part of my personality, is I just. Just wanted to be social because I felt like connecting with people and being with people is the best thing. And some people are the total opposite of that. They would, like, you know, want to be alone, not talk to anybody. And so one of those things was like, this podcast. I'm going to call this podcast and tell them my story. I'm going to do this. And I don't know what propelled me to really be that open, but I just felt like sharing that and I guess with. With artists, too, like, made me feel good. Yeah. So this year has been interesting. I feel like I'm in a more steady place now, but it changes. You know, it's one of those things where you could look at a tree and, like, you just start crying for no reason. Because that tree reminds me of them for some reason.

[B]

Right.

[D]

That's. But that's. And I. I've learned, like, that's just how it works. And I've probably read so many books on grief and all kinds of podcasts on grief, but it's. It's. Yeah. So it's. It's a journey, for sure.

[B]

You know, I. In moments of deep grief in my own life, and I've also talked to other people who've experienced deep loss that. That there's a. You know, beneath the shattering and the tragedy and the hurt, like, there's something really incredible about weeping at the sight of a tree. Right. That makes you feel like you're actually more alive, more awake. More alert, more sensitive to how hard it is to be a human being. Your empathy expands. I mean, there's. I love Nick Cave. I don't know if you know Nick Cave, who's a. Yeah, yeah. So he has these red hand files that he writes, these weekly emails, and he lost two children. And he has a book called Faith, Hope and Carnage, which, if you haven't read, I recommend it. You can listen to it, too. It's just conversations with him and this Irish journalist, and a lot of it is about grief and art and creativity, but most of it's about grief. And he said this thing that I think about all the time. When his son died, his teenage son, he thought he was entering this incredibly small, tragic circle of grieving people. And then he realized he was entering this enormous community of grieving people that there were so many people that had lost, people that had hit, you know, various bottoms in their life that were just soaked in grief. And he. He realized he had actually, like, entered the human family in a different way and that it wasn't this isolating event. It was more of a, like, joint. It. It knit him to other people. Did you have some of that?

[D]

Yes, I. I joined a grief group, actually, just for young spouses, like people who have had young spouses that died. It's probably one of the best things I've ever done. I didn't know how it would be, but. And there's all people from all different backgrounds, but it feels like you're in this club that you don't really want to be in, but, like, you're so grateful that you are. Yeah, in a way. And it's a lot like you said, Josh. Like, it's. So. You do see the world in a whole new way. And I described it to someone recently as seeing the world in 360. I kind of just see everything from all sides now. And this is coming from a person that's. I'm incredibly empathetic, I think, and very open to a lot of ideas and people, but I just see. I see pain differently everyday, struggles differently, especially when someone dies, that you. And everyone feels this way, I'm sure, about people they love who die, but, like, he was someone who really deserved to live longer.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Like he deserved to live this life on earth, and he's not anymore. And it's not only do I have to reconcile that for myself, but also for my son. And so there's those things, too. But it's a journey. And I don't know how my son. I think about My son, too. And how he's gonna evolve over time, too, without having his father. What that means for me in the future and to segue back to the show, I think it's kind of beautiful and amazing. I thought to myself, how wonderful would it be that I went back to the first person I loved? Like, like, that was the person I ended up with. Like, he goes back to Robin. Like, how, how, how lucky is that? Like, that he gets to have that in his life. Like, gets to go back to his. The first person that really knows him. Like, that's, that's kind of a beautiful ending, actually.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

So it does kind of wrap it up, kind of neatly,

[A]

neatly unmute at the same time.

[B]

We'll be right back. Greg, you know what I like best about our jobs?

[A]

Working with me?

[B]

No, no, that's like seventh or eighth. I'd say one, that one or two is that. We've talked about this on the podcast. We don't have to wear a suit and tie to work.

[A]

Oh, never, never, never.

[B]

Working in tv, working in theater, working in podcasting. I mean, you barely wear pants.

[A]

I, I'm, I'm not even sure I'm even wearing pants now. And I'm writing books and stuff. I don't have to. I see nobody.

[B]

Yeah, you've given. You've fully given up. But no, it's true. We don't. We. We can wear the comfiest clothes that we can. We can grab. And I know that some of our favorites.

[A]

Rvori, here's the thing, because you, you also want to look good. You want to be comfortable, but you want to look good because you can't actually give up. That's the thing.

[B]

Don't give up comfortable, but look good. That's the sweet spot.

[A]

That's the dream.

[B]

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[A]

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[D]

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[B]

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[A]

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[D]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[F]

And now back to the.

[B]

What we're also talking about. We're talking about lots of different things, but one of the things that I think you're speaking to is that what Craig was talking about, we change. There's no static version of us. There's no frozen version of us. We're always changing. But also as we change, the art we love changes with us. If it's good art, I think there is some art that is just like that's what it is, you know. But I don't know if you've had this experience. I certainly have. Where a book I loved when I was younger. I read it 20 years later and it just doesn't resonate the same way. It hit 17 year old me in a way it's not going to hit 37 year old me. And conversely, art that did not make any sense to me when I was younger or baffled or angered me when I'm older. I've had enough experience with grief, loss, failure, setback, struggle that it moves me in a completely different way. So I think that. But it's really. I just love your insight that, you know, you don't sound like one of the Storm, the Barricades, How I Met yout Mother finale people like, like pitchforks outside of cbs. Like you don't sound like one of those people. There were those people. There continue to be those people. But you did say that you were kind of angered and annoyed and confused, would you say?

[D]

Or like I wasn't angry. I mean, I don't think I could ever get that angry.

[B]

But you were. You were kind of confused by it.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Or just like it wasn't the. It didn't land where you maybe wanted it to or hoped it to in that moment. Yeah.

[D]

And I think disappointed is a good word.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

But I think that's how. But I realized that's. I think that's how you're. We're supposed to feel a little bit.

[B]

Well, sure. I mean when, when someone dies that you love unexpectedly, how else would you know you'd feel? I mean disappointment is a mild word for it, but.

[D]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

You know, you feel. I think some of the fans were actually having like A weir, appropriate response, which is they felt robbed.

[D]

Yeah, right.

[B]

They felt robbed of their happy ending. But you know who else did was Ted.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

You know, and it took him a long time.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the whole. And the whole show, when you look at it through that lens, is a father preparing to ask his children this incredibly vulnerable thing, like, are you okay if I give it another shot with this woman that obviously, you know, I have always loved and is in our lives. And, you know, he's really prepared. The whole show looked at through that lens is like this achingly beautiful thing. Craig, I just, I don't.

[A]

Well, he's asking. The whole story is leading to a question to his kids, which is, is this okay with you guys? Is it okay for me to love again? Is it okay for me just to try again? Is it okay to see if that's there for me in this way with this person who, you know and you love and is family to us in a way and has been and is it okay? Is it okay to do that? And his kids want him to be happy, so they say yes. And in that sense, that's what the story was leading up to for that, you know, that was the way we were approaching the whole series in a way. And some folks really got that and some folks really didn't. It's really interesting. I mean, Josh and I went through so much in the nine years we made that show. I wanted to share this with you, Jessica, that my son was born between year two and three and he was born with life threatening congenital heart disease. And he had four different heart problems that required open heart surgery when he was two weeks old. And there was about 50, 50 chance of survival. And he's 18 now and he's doing great. But in between year and two and three of the show, I thought it was my first born child and we thought we might lose him. And the way that kind of for me at least colored the way I viewed the show and approached the show. And Carter too. He was so in that with me. Josh was so in that with me. It was just like this really big life thing was happening alongside our sitcom and these collaborators and dear friends like Josh and like Carter and Pam Freyman and all the whole. And everybody like they were there with me on that journey. They saw me and my wife and Elliot come through this really, really life or death. And then life or death. And then, well, he lived. Now what now what's life? And it just, I don't know, it put us On a different trajectory. And obviously, the fact when I heard in your message that your husband had this lifelong congenital heart problem that eventually took him. Right. And I felt that so much, too, because that's my son, too. And my son has lifelong learning disabilities. He was a rare genetic syndrome. The heart was just part of it. And it's just. For me, that was the moment my life diverged into a different story than the one I thought. Right. Which I know is how it feels to lose somebody. There was, in a way, a loss of the version of parenthood I thought we were gonna have. Right. I was. There was a loss of a plan. The planned life. The planned life I was supposed to have, that I ordered up out of the catalog. I wasn't gonna have that life. My son wasn't gonna have that life, and my wife wasn't gonna have that life. And then the beauty is, okay, what do we do now? And answering that day by day, that's the beauty. That's the beauty of moving on. And if you can survive that and live in the discomfort of that, you can discover gifts along the way, even as you feel the loss of what you thought it was all gonna be. And I. I just wanted to share that. That there's. There's. There's a heart issue in the heart of my family, too. And I. You know, I. I don't. I don't know. I just feel connected to your story in that way.

[C]

Thank you.

[D]

Yeah. And I. I knew that a little bit, but I. So it's funny, when I started listening to the podcast again, I had forgotten that story about your son. And I. I kind of remembered it going on with the show and that the. You guys did the fundraisers and things like that. And then I was like, oh, yeah. I was like, oh, wow. Yeah.

[C]

He.

[D]

Similar situation, and he had a very different one when he was a baby and had to have, like, a surgery when he was a baby, and then, like, just kind of lived with it, had a. Had a pacemaker as an adult and, like, all these things, but. But, you know, he just went to his regular checkups, and it was always fine. And it was like. It was like, just to a point where it wasn't fine anymore. Like, his. His heart just couldn't keep up anymore. And it was. And it was like one of those things where everyone wanted it to work, and they kept pushing to make it work. And we both kind of knew, like, it's done. Like, it's just. It's just done working for you. Like, it doesn't want to work for you anymore and there's nothing more to do.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And that, that was really hard. And it felt like, it felt like a decision that we made, but it was something that had to happen because I don't think any doctor wants to say to a 43 year old man, like, okay, I guess that's it, right? Like no one wants, no one wants to say that they want to fight for you and try to do whatever they can. But, you know, it's something my husband said to me before. What I'm very grateful for is that we had time to talk to each other before he passed away. And one of the things he said to me was, you know, he felt like his purpose was to have our child. He felt like that was, that was the point of like him being here. And he went through like a lot of times in his life where he was like depressed a little bit and got out of it. And when he met me was like a really high point in his life. He was doing really well in his 30s and he felt like, I'm going to try to do something for myself and not worry about my mortality. And you know, we built this life for eight years and I felt like that's maybe what he was supposed to do is just kind of find that time to embrace life in his adulthood. And. But anyway, yeah, and we have this amazing, amazing healthy kid. So I, you know. Yeah, you know, I can't, you know, but yeah, but thank you. Thank you, Craig, for sharing that again.

[A]

I'm so glad that he got to experience the gift of you and the gift of your child and that he felt that was the meaning in his life because of course that is, that is the beauty and meaning of life. And I'm so glad that he got that. You know, I'm so glad he got that with you.

[B]

I heard his story years ago about Meryl Streep was with for years with the actor John Cazale, who's this toweringly great American character actors in Dog Day Afternoon, Godfather. And he was just so respected among actors and they were very much in love. And he, I think had a brain tumor or something and he had a, a death that was like swift but gave them enough time to do what you were talking about.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And I know another actor who's dear friends with her. I never met her, but he told me that he ran into her in New York while John Cazale was dying and he asked how she was doing. He knew she was going through this and she said it's the saddest thing in the world. But I have never been so present with anyone in my life. Like just the, the. The time that they were sharing, you know, it felt like they had entered into a timeless flow state together where they weren't even bound by time anymore. You know, and I think sometimes we mistake longevity for like that. It's more meaningful the longer you get. But that's not necessarily true.

[D]

Right.

[B]

You know, the moments that, that eight years together can be more, you know, filled with. With meaning and import than, you know, than a 50 year marriage where you're not talking about much. You know, you're not really talking about all the real stuff. But my wife Jordana, who, who you've probably heard on the show, questions and observations from a clinical psychologist who never seen How I Met your Mother and also happens to be married to Josh. So she, she's a clinical psychologist and her, her PhD thesis was on the connection between love and death and how a more presence, awareness of our mortality increases intimacy. So I imagine that you and your husband were just at this kind of achingly intimate time in those moments before and those. But she also, she introduced me to this quote from John Fowles, a novelist who said death is rather like a certain kind of lecturer. You don't really hear what is being said until you're in the front row.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it feels to me like people who watch How I Met yout Mother and really viscerally disliked the ending like they were in the back of the lecture hall, like they couldn't hear the music and the poetry. And it feels to me like your husband's death put you in the front row and then it made you reconsider the show because you could hear what it was. Right?

[D]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, grief, you can't have love without grief.

[B]

So it's the cost of it.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. They go hand in hand. So. And that's something, something I. Something I knew intellectually. But like I feel that now.

[B]

Right, right.

[D]

Because you, you feel it, you feel it in the same way. Like that doesn't, you know, it, it will never go away.

[B]

Right.

[D]

Like I, you know, I. The love you have for a person will never go away. It just kind of evolves.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, in some ways, like when we read novels as teenagers or in your 20s before you've experienced loss, it's all intellectual, you know.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's hard to. I think one of the big things of How I met your mother is life will season you. Life will. You'll trip enough. You'll. You'll. You'll get left at enough altars. You'll. You know, you'll. Your plans will be thwarted enough.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That. I. I think that if you let life. If you agree that life is a benevolent teacher, but it's sometimes a ferocious teacher, it really does teach you all the deepest lessons that you could possibly learn. Now, I wish that life taught us through success and triumph and, you know, like, it just doesn't seem like the deepest lessons come from those things. They really come from when things get taken away and we discover who we are underneath all that.

[D]

Yeah. And you see that in the show a lot.

[A]

Yeah. I was just gonna say, like, if I look at Ted, we meet this guy on the pilot who is a planner and a dreamer.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And the series journey is life telling Ted, maybe stop it with so much planning, but never stop dreaming. And I feel like Ted's letting go of one thing and deepening another. And that hope is a good thing in the end. Him asking his kids, can I think about falling in love again? Can it be this person that you already know that's part of our lives who loves you and is Aunt Robin. And that's still hope, and that's still a dreamer. That's still a guy who's gonna steal a blue French horn a second time. And. But it wasn't the plan. He only got there by letting go of the plan.

[B]

You know, Craig, I have two very dear friends. They're a couple years younger than me, so they're like their mid-40s. And both of them really struggled with relationships, had a hard time getting anything to stick. And they both, in the last year or two, have reconnected with the great loves of their twenties.

[A]

Unbelievable.

[B]

And one of them just got engaged, and the other one is probably, like, relocating geographically to be with her. That's a more recent reconnection. But it was like, you know, the kind of. It was that Ted Robin thing of, like, I can't shake it. Like, I can't shake your. And I think sometimes, you know, even though life hasn't knocked you around that much, sometimes, you know, I remember the feelings I felt in my twenties, just how vivid things can feel because they're newer. You know, your first love, your first heartbreak, they're all. They all get stitched and etched inside you because we're so. Yeah, we have. We. We don't have context for them, you know?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's right. I mean, and what Jessica said about love, like, the other Big theme of the series, as said by Ted, future Ted, and also Ted in the show, says that I think at some point, love is the best thing we do.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And love doesn't die. You know, like, your love for your husband is in you forever. It's in your child. And like Ted's love for Tracy doesn't go away because he wants to maybe love another person. Right. Having lost one version of love, is there the hope for another? And I think that's really poignant, Josh, to hear that about your two friends, because you just can't predict it. Right. Love endures. And it takes different forms at different chapters. Right. And different moments, and it surprises you and it is the best thing we do.

[B]

And, you know, there's a parallel thing, just a rhyme. It's not like exactly at all. But I was very moved, Jessica, when you, when you thanked me for re. Engaging with the show at the end of your note, you know.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And I, I, I think if you have read interviews I've done or even listened to this podcast, you know that my perspective on how I met your mother in that time of my life has changed now.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Now that I'm married, now that I have a son. And I look back at that time and I, I realize, like, I was really hard on myself. I was doing a really good job. I, you know, and you know that I have been able to re. Engage with this, this, this massive chapter in my life and share and reflect. And then it almost, it sends out a kind of sonar signal to other people, like, that they can share and reflect. And they, you know, it. Obviously, if we, if my wife hadn't said, I'd like to watch the show and I hadn't called Craig and said, let's do something, and then we called Alex and then we had a podcast up and running, we wouldn't be talking here to you and your story and your processing of your grief with us in community would not have happened. So I think that's also another thing of How I Met yout Mother is how everything is connected in this strange web pattern like way, you know?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

If I can say to that too. Like, I, so like Josh, like, after How I met your mother, I would try to follow your career wherever you were going. And I was like, okay, he's like, doing totally different things now. But like, I, you know, I saw you like, in Disgraced on Broadway and all that stuff. But anyway, I did.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

But anyway, my point being, I, when you did this podcast, I was like, oh, my God, like, he's back into it, too. This is crazy. So, like, I was just. I was just excited because I felt. I. I felt like, you know. Well, your wife's amazing, by the way. I'm sure she's amazing. She sounds amazing, but she. You know, the fact that she reintroduced you to it, I was like, she's a good one. I was like. Because I feel like I needed that real. The real. The real rewatch again of the show. Like, you know, there's a lot of. Of other little podcast things that, like, fans have tried to do. I don't know if you've noticed that, like, other little things that don't really stick, but this was something just really special, and that's why I was so grateful you came back to it, because I think you needed to be the one to kind of come back into it. Craig, too, of course. But I feel like

[B]

I couldn't do this without Craig because I also. The writer mind that I have, like, I need. It's like, you know, I was on set a lot when Craig wasn't on set, and Craig was in the writers room when I wasn't in the writers room. And I actually like collecting our hive mind experience because I'm so curious about the process of, like, by the time the scripts got to me, they had been working on them for a long time.

[D]

Right.

[A]

Yeah. It's really. We're actually filling each other in on this experience that we shared. Shared and didn't share. And it's. Jessica, like, what a gift. I. Like, like, it's worth us having done this podcast to have met you and gotten and to have you share your story with us. Like, it's just. It's such a gift to us, and we're really, really just so grateful for it, truly. Thank you. Like, that's the dream. To quote another line from the show. Like, you put stuff out there, you hope it will speak to people and find, you know, find people like you. And every now and again, we get the gift of hearing that it did. And we were just so moved that you shared that moment. And you can hear it in your voice in that message that started off this episode. You can hear where you were in that moment, and you shared that vulnerability with us. And the fact that the show made you feel you could trust these people you hadn't met until today. It's a real trust fall. So thank you.

[B]

Yeah. And also, I said to. To my wife this morning, because you'll remember in the first, you know, year of a. Of a kid's life, how quickly they change, you know, like how you put him to sleep and you wake up in the morning, you're like, this is kind of a different kid than the one I put down to bed last night. And I forget what it was. She reminded me of something he used to do, but he doesn't do it anymore. And I was like, oh, yeah, he did used to do that. He kind of grew out of that.

[A]

It was smoking, right?

[B]

You know, he was smoking like a. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was a Paul Mulcher.

[A]

I'm glad he got it got out of that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I, I, I said to her, I wish I'd been journaling kind of ferociously, like documenting.

[A]

I know. You know, I regret that all the time.

[B]

And my friend Omar actually said, I need to come over once a week and videotape you and say, because you're going to forget all this. And of course we have, we haven't done that. We have all the pictures, you know.

[D]

Oh, good. Pictures are good.

[B]

Pictures are good. But there's also something about your voice. Note is a, you know, it's a journal entry of sorts. It's a snapshot of where you were and it, you know, and also in our listening to it, it was a snapshot of where we were because we were so early in doing this show.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

And I think there was something about when we heard your message, we kind of thought, oh, this is why we're doing the show, for these kind of moments. And the show is working in the, you know, not in the, We've taken it the world over and we're beating Joe Rogan numbers. Like, that's not what that was. It's saying the thing we're trying to do, the sonar blast that we're sending out into the universe is being heard and it's being received and it's being appreciated and loved. And yeah, like Craig said, we're so grateful you joined us today and we're so vulnerable and just in sharing your story and yeah, we consider you're a friend of the pod, as they say. And if you see me walking around Brooklyn and please say hi.

[D]

I will. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, same. I, yeah, I hope so. Yeah. Stay in touch.

[A]

We do the, the, the in the in house charity of the, of the podcast is raising money for a doctor who researches my son's genetic condition. He's a pediatric cardiologist, congenital heart. So people can, there's a, if you go to our website, how I made your mother.com, you can, you can donate to that. So that kind of is the. The go to cause for. For How He Made youe Mother. And we do this concert is where I'm going with this, where Josh performs and the Salads perform. We have people from the show come join us. It's June 20th this year. Please come be our guest and join us at the concert and say hi. Like, I would love to have you there. I feel like that we can meet you in person too, there. So if you want to come to that.

[D]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

But please, like you are a friend of the pod. Yes. Please stay in touch because we're so grateful to be your friends now.

[B]

Yay. Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, thank you, Jessica. Thanks for being here. It means a lot to have had you here.

[D]

Thank you. It means. It means a lot to me. And I'm just. I'm. I'm just amazed I got to meet you both.

[A]

So all of you, that's how we feel.

[D]

I appreciate you guys.

[B]

Thanks, Jessica.

[C]

You.

[D]

You've made my year. You've made my year special. So I appreciate it.

[A]

You've done exactly that for us.

[B]

I am guilty. Please acquit me. All sins are forgiven in New York City.

[F]

How we made your Mother is hosted and executive produced by Josh Radner and Craig Thomas and is presented and distributed by the Office Ladies Network and Odyssey. This episode is also executive produced by Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey. The show is produced and edited by me, Alec Lev and our co producer is Doug Matica. Our audio producer and mixer is Alex Reeves at Point of Blue Studios. Our digital content producer, AKA Gen Z Master, is Emily Blumberg. Artwork by John Morrow. Please follow rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or your podcast player of choice. It really does help the show. Our theme song is New York City by Orange own Josh Radner with additional music by Craig Thomas and Andrew Majewski. Special thanks to Lola Kennedy and Elliot Connors. Visit how we made your mother.com to learn more and click on the contact page to send us an email or a voice message. Your stories and questions are an important part of the show. Subscribe to Josh Radner's Muse Letters on Substack and check out his music and everything else@josh radner.com Order Craig Thomas Debut novel, that's Not How It Happened, wherever books are sold and check out his other published writings at craig thomas writer.com and you can subscribe to My own Dead Fathers Society, also on Substack to learn more about how you make a difference. This show's ongoing campaign to raise money for congenital pediatric heart disease research. Check out the make it Difference tab at the top of our website. People will, in fact, dance

[A]

the real

[B]

question it just hit me. Am I in love with you or just New York City

[G]

Insurance isn't one size fits all. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressive's name your price tool for years. Now. With the name your price tool, you tell them what you want to pay, and they'll show you options that fit your budget. So whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see your options. Visit progressive.com, find a rate that works for you with the name your price tool, Progressive Casualty Insurance company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law.

[B]

Don't miss the Devil Wears Prada, too. In theaters Meryl Streep, Anne Hathaway, Emily Blunt and Stanley Tucci are back.

[D]

And light of the recent scandal, I'm here to restore your credibility.

[E]

I did not hire you, and all I need to do is bide my

[D]

time until you fail on May 1. Icons I'm going to make something of this job. Rain May the bridges I burn light my way forever.

[B]

I just love my job. Get tickets now. The Devil Wears Prada 2, in theaters May 1. Directed by David Frankel, Radio 13 may be inappropriate for children under 13.