How We Met James [with Wayne Brady] | S2E10 "Single Stamina"

Summary

Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: How We Made Your Mother
Hosts: Josh Radnor & Craig Thomas
Guest: Wayne Brady
Episode: S2E10 "Single Stamina"
Release Date: January 5, 2026

This episode dives deep into "Single Stamina," the landmark How I Met Your Mother episode introducing Wayne Brady as James Stinson, Barney’s gay, Black older brother. Radnor, Thomas, and Brady revisit the casting, writing, and social resonance of James’s character and the episode’s deft handling of issues like adult transitions, gay marriage, and brotherhood within sitcom conventions. The conversation also touches on the global and personal impact of HIMYM, the emotional journey behind performing on the show, and how sitcoms can blend heart with big laughs.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Listener Impact and Emotional Resonance

• [01:02] The episode kicks off with a heartfelt voice message from Griffin, a long-time fan, expressing how HIMYM became his anchor during formative years.
  • "Your writing was and still is my anchor for understanding the world." — Griffin

2. Welcoming Wayne Brady and Revisiting James Stinson

• [03:30] Wayne Brady joins the hosts, reflecting positively on Craig Thomas's theme song, “New York City,” and joking about showing up “bearded” per the podcast’s unofficial executive decision that all guests are bearded.
• [04:39] The hosts revisit Brady’s recurring role:
  • Wayne played James in 13 episodes—more than he’d recalled but still an impactful number.
  • Single Stamina was his first appearance, and Brady calls it “one of the coolest experiences from beginning to end" ([05:36]).
  • On accepting the role: “When else do you get to play Neil Patrick Harris's gay, Black brother?” ([06:01])
  • Radnor and Thomas remember feeling lucky and starstruck to have Wayne on the show, sharing that the writers' room was obsessed with his Chappelle's Show appearance ([08:29]).

3. On the Origins and Writing of "Single Stamina"

• [09:34] The hosts summarize the episode’s core: Robin meets James; the group navigates Barney’s loneliness as his last “single wingman” reveals he's engaged.
  • It’s about growing up, transitions, and feeling “left behind” as friends couple up.
  • Memorable quote (Craig Thomas):
    “The central joke... except for being Black and being gay, [James] is like Barney in every other way.” ([10:21])

4. Playing “Gay Black Barney” – Challenges & Approach

• [11:48] The creative challenge: James had to be Barney’s equal in style and confidence, despite limited foundation (only one prior season of Barney’s archetype).
  • Brady describes blending homage and originality:
    • “I realized that if I was his older brother and he got some of his game from me, but we shouldn’t be exactly alike... I should have a little more maturity than he did.” ([14:36])
  • The writing made it easy to “take it and go other places,” and a pre-existing rapport with Neil Patrick Harris helped build chemistry ([13:21]).

5. The Club Scene and Barney’s Vulnerability

• [13:56] Josh and Craig praise Wayne's whirlwind entrance—“like the Tasmanian devil”—and the now-famous pep talk about living fully in New York.
  • Brady discusses balancing surface bravado with the reality of hiding a big secret.
  • “That whole thing is an act... having to carry that up until you’re like, ‘Look, man, I can’t do this anymore. This is the truth.’” ([24:00])

6. Themes of Growing Up, Aging, and Changing Friendship Dynamics

• [15:26] The episode’s subtext: transitioning from perpetual youth to embracing adulthood; James as a model for Barney’s eventual growth.
  • “In some ways, you have to cooperate with [aging] rather than fight against it, or it gets kind of ugly.” — Thomas ([16:33])
  • “You either have shows that are in the beginning stages... and then you have successful shows that are about the other part of that journey... It’s cool to watch journeys like that happen.” — Brady ([16:46])

7. The Emotional Core: Brothers, Fathers, and Letting Go

• [19:49] The show links James as both older brother and substitute father figure, explaining Barney’s distress at his brother’s engagement.
  • Brady notes that in the absence of a dad, “I was all he had in that regard... Being able to have those moments in the midst of all these laughs—you can’t ask for a better gift as an actor.” ([20:04])

8. Behind-the-Scenes: On-Set Energy and Guest Star Nerves

• [29:50] Brady recalls nerves joining a tight ensemble, feeling “scared to come through the door,” but driven by a philosophy of “being of service” to the show’s needs ([31:10]-[31:26]).
  • Thomas lauds the “theater actor” energy Brady brought, head-to-toe commitment even amid anxious inner dialogue ([32:05]-[32:46]).

9. Character Construction: Physical Comedy and Chemistry

• [43:04] A highlight: the unscripted physical comedy juggling a phone thrown by Barney, revealing how much spontaneity and performance melded.

10. Social Impact: Portraying a Gay, Black Character in 2006-07

• [44:16] Subtle progressivism: The episode is “very pro-gay marriage without being over the head.”

  • Classic exchange:
    Barney: “I don’t support this.”
    James: “Gay marriage?”
    Barney: “Not gay marriage, marriage, marriage.” ([43:52])

  • HIMYM received a GLAAD Media Award nomination for the episode ([53:42]).

  • Brady: “The casting of me in that way, in that role... being able to talk about gay marriage and the way that race is even discussed without being discussed—[it was] very ahead of…” ([44:16])

11. Representation and Barney’s Idol

• [56:44]
  • Radnor: “Barney Stinson’s all-time idol in the entire universe is gay... a gay, Black older brother. And we thought, ‘No other show is doing exactly this storyline’... That’s when you’re a little excited, a little scared, but those are the things you chase.” ([56:44])

12. Legacy and Impact – For Cast, Crew, and Fans

• Brady discusses international recognition for his HIMYM role, even if he didn’t realize the depth of his global impact until fans abroad (Brazil, for example) approached him ([24:00]).
• Thomas and Radnor reflect on the meta nature of aging in the show and their lives ([17:59]) and the show as a comedic time capsule.

13. Fun Facts & Easter Eggs

• [41:49]
  • The unseen voice of Barney and James’s mother is Megan Mullally, recorded informally thanks to her friendship with the cast.
  • James's husband Tom was originally a producer, later recast in subsequent episodes ([46:01]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the brave, but underplayed writing:

• “It was brave without being, ‘Hey, look what we’re doing.’ Because you put the funny first, but you also had the heart.” — Wayne Brady ([06:27])

On guest star nerves:

• “I was so nervous. I was sweating bullets... As soon as action, I was scared to come through the door.” — Wayne Brady ([32:01], [32:05])

On growth and changing life stages:

• “We’re all adolescents to, like, 30, basically, is the premise of this show.” — Radnor ([41:44])

On subtle activism through comedy:

• “Comedy can humanize issues. And I think that’s what we wanted—without being preachy, we wanted it to be funny. But if you look underneath the funny, we’re saying something about how everybody’s equal, everybody should be able to love whoever, and that Barney should be able to hate marriage as an institution, having nothing to do with the people that are getting married.” — Radnor ([54:50])

On representation:

• “Barney Stinson’s all-time idol ... is a gay man who has better game than Barney.” — Radnor ([56:44])

On Barney’s attitude:

• “He just doesn’t want anyone to get married of any type of person.” — Craig Thomas ([45:10])

On the Barney-James dynamic:

• “Very rarely on the show do you see Barney utterly in awe of somebody. And the way he played that with you ... [shows] how much he clearly modeled his own personality on James.” — Josh Radnor ([18:49])

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Important Timestamps

• 01:02: Listener Griffin's voicemail about personal connection to HIMYM
• 03:30: Wayne Brady joins, reflects on his character
• 05:36: Brady on challenges and gratitude for playing James
• 09:34: Armchair episode summary by Radnor
• 11:48: How Wayne approached playing "gay Black Barney"
• 14:20: Brady on making James unique from Barney
• 19:49: Discussion of James as Barney’s substitute father
• 24:00: Brady on international recognition; being impactful as a recurring guest
• 29:50: On-set energy, importance of guest stars, and Brady’s nerves
• 32:05: Thomas hails Wayne’s theater-style, full-body performance
• 43:52: Social satire and subtle pro-gay marriage humor
• 46:01: Fun fact about casting James’s fiancé, Tom
• 53:42: GLAAD nomination and cultural context
• 56:44: Barney’s idol is gay and the importance of representation

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Additional Insights

• The podcast explores how HIMYM managed to blend big swings in story and performance with surreptitious, progressive social commentary—particularly notable in the mid-2000s U.S. television landscape.
• The showrunners and Brady reflect on the enduring emotional resonance of the series for viewers and performers alike, especially how the show’s time-capsule structure mirrors their own life journeys.
• HIMYM’s episode highlights how sitcoms can progress social attitudes sneakily and effectively by focusing on humor and humanity rather than explicit preaching.

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Final Thoughts

This episode underscores both the craft and heart behind How I Met Your Mother’s creation of James Stinson, examining how sitcoms can be ambitious and humane simultaneously. The candid reflections from Wayne Brady and the hosts reveal the vulnerability and care that go into even the funniest moments, while their discussion of legacy and growth offers fans a fresh understanding of the show’s deeper relevance.

Transcript

[Josh Radnor]

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[Craig Thomas]

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[Josh Radnor]

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[Griffin (Listener/Caller)]

Hi guys, my name is Griffin and I was born in and still am in Indianapolis, Indiana. When How I Met yout Mother came out, my mom came to the responsible conclusion that maybe I wasn't quite ready for this show since I was only five years old when I first watched the show. I was 13 years old, or about the same age that Ted's kids were in the future Ted scenes. I instantly fell in love with the dynamics between the characters and all the hidden messages and themes put into single episode stories and season long arcs. I grew lacking a father figure. In a weird way, your writing filled that void as if it was talking to me as one of the kids on the couch, telling me that you're going to try very hard, you're going to win a lot, and you're going to lose a lot. In the end, you'll be thankful for all the experiences you've had, both good and bad, because it got you to where you are today. I have long desired to live in the city culture seen in this show and at the time of recording this, I'm glad to say that I will be moving out of my hometown to San Francisco in three days. This show gave me the confidence to do things that were ambitious instead of Things that were practical. And it taught me valuable lessons that I honestly don't know where else I would have learned. Thank you guys so much for pouring your hearts and souls into the writing of these characters and the world around them. Your writing was and still is my anchor for understanding the world.

[Craig Thomas]

I'm alone what a pity I won't be soon in New York City When I see you. Please permit me to tell you everything in New York City. Well, hello and welcome to another episode of How We Made your Mother. I am here with my friend Craig Thomas. Hi, Craig.

[Josh Radnor]

Hey, Josh.

[Craig Thomas]

We're talking about the TV show we made together from 2005 to 2014. It was called How I Met yout Mother. We're going back through every episode. We're rewatching, we're rewinding, we're reconsidering. We're liking what we see for the most part. I gotta say that, that I am delighted. One, because we have one of the great How I Met yout Mother guest stars with us today. And while the theme song was playing, which is my song, New York City, he was bopping his head along and delighting it. He said, josh, is this you? And I said, yeah. And he seemed to approve. So I'm delighted that Wayne Brady also got the note that we like to have all the guests bearded. He showed up with a beard. Please give the warmest whim yum welcome to Wayne Brady. Hey, Wayne.

[Wayne Brady]

Yes. Hey, man. Hey. Great job on the song.

[Craig Thomas]

Thanks, man.

[Wayne Brady]

That was great.

[Craig Thomas]

Thank you.

[Wayne Brady]

Because immediately I recognized your voice, which was part of being, you know, a. I'm not going to say a good singer or it's. It's part of having a voice that you affect, folks. I went, oh, that's your voice. And I know you know your voice. And I really liked it.

[Craig Thomas]

Well, have you noticed that some singers, their speaking voice and singing voice are very similar? And other people. I know this great singer in Nashville, Audrey Assad. Her speaking voice gives you no indication about how glorious her singing voice is. Do you know what I mean? There could be that difference.

[Wayne Brady]

They are vocal catfishes. Yes, they absolutely catfish. You know who really does that? British artists. They say all the time, oh, I really don't. And then they sing. They go, because I'm from the hood.

[Josh Radnor]

It's like what I remember that Beatles song.

[Craig Thomas]

I love that you're still in character, coining new, new phrases, bringing the James energy.

[Wayne Brady]

That's what I do.

[Craig Thomas]

I love it. Vocal catfish. Well, Wayne, we're really so happ to have you on the show. But remind us, how many episodes did you do? Do you even know how many episodes you were on?

[Wayne Brady]

I don't remember because it seemed like a lot, but like my daughter, it was like six.

[Josh Radnor]

It was something like that. Spread across a bunch of years. This is the first one we're talking about, the episode Single Stamina where we meet you. Six to eight, something like that. A couple of them were very small appearances. A couple of them were bigger. This is a great episode. Single Stamina. I had not watched this episode in years. You are great in this, my friend. It is such. You just, like, burst in and steal the show. It is so great.

[Craig Thomas]

Before we dive in, can we just do our Alec, tell us when this episode aired.

[Alec Lev]

So Single Stamina aired on November 27, 2006. And I just want to say that if ChatGPT is to be believed, ChatGPT believes that you were on 13 episodes of How I Met yout Mother.

[Wayne Brady]

Thirteen. Okay, then that makes sense. No, but 13 makes sense because I remember being there more.

[Josh Radnor]

I wish it was even more once.

[Wayne Brady]

Yeah, yeah, that's great. Single Stamina was one of the coolest experiences from beginning to end. And I just did an interview where I was giving you guys props because to me to get an offer like, hey, you know the show How I Met yout Mother? And I think you guys were just in your second season at that point.

[Josh Radnor]

Yes, yes.

[Wayne Brady]

So I'd seen the first season. Of course I know Neil. I was like, oh, my God, this show is great. And it introduced me to you, Josh. And I was like, this is great. Oh, they want me on the show. Yeah, they want you to play Neil's brother. And immediately I went, okay, and he's gay. I went, oh, so when else do you get to play Neil Patrick Harris, gay black brother?

[Craig Thomas]

This is it. This was your one shot. You had to say yes if you wanted to do that.

[Josh Radnor]

Not many actors get this chance.

[Wayne Brady]

This was the shot, and it was really cool. And the fact that you wrapped up and resolved his whole thing with dads later, it was one of the coolest. It was one of the coolest casting slash writing choices that I've seen in sitcoms. It was brave without being, hey, look what we're doing. Because you put the funny first, but you also had the heart. So I'm always blessed that I got to do that.

[Josh Radnor]

Oh, man, we were so lucky to have you. Kind of just answered my question, which was, we were a second season show. We were not a big hit. We asked Bryan Cranston this, too. He was in episode a couple before this one, the one you're in. And our question to him that I kind of would say to you, too, is, why did you do this? I like why. This is the weirdest character, the weirdest offer. We were not a hit show. You maybe saw a little bit of season one. Maybe you saw all of season one. I don't know. But there was a lot.

[Wayne Brady]

Yes, I saw season one.

[Josh Radnor]

You all seemed. Well, I'm very honored that you did.

[Wayne Brady]

Because it was fresh. So I knew, A, that it was the ground floor of something great like Friends. And then B, the fact that because you weren't a big hit yet, you wrote what you wanted to. You wrote funny versus trying to do whatever the next guy was doing. And I. And I think in comedy, you always want to be aligned with that, so I was really happy to get that call.

[Craig Thomas]

You know, Craig, I know you seem to think that actors are doing a favor in those first two seasons by being on the show. We're getting paid to act, which we always enjoy, you know? And two, if you see enough, like, a. A new show that's on that is kind of, like, delightful and weird and new, they send you an offer, you read the script, you're like, hey, this is a great part.

[Josh Radnor]

You're.

[Craig Thomas]

You're mostly going to do it if you're available. You know what I mean? Like, it's not like great opportunities are falling from the trees of, like, new, young, cool shows that are. You know what I mean? Like, you guys, really. I think you underestimate and undersell that. Even though the show wasn't a ratings juggernaut, it was still being noticed and watched and people were talking about it.

[Wayne Brady]

Absolutely.

[Josh Radnor]

I just remember feeling at the time like Wayne's 2 Wayne, it felt like such a get. We were all such fans of yours. Everyone in the writers room loved you. Everybody loves you. Everyone in the writers room had been obsessed with you on the Chappelle show appearance, where you came into that show and stole that shit that whole episode. And we had all watched that 75,000 times in the writers room, so we were all starstruck with you coming in. And I definitely had that feeling early on, like, this guy's doing us a real favor here. Like, same with Cranston, where I was like, how are they coming and doing this for us?

[Wayne Brady]

Josh is absolutely right. Don't get it twisted. No matter who you are as the actor, if there's something cool.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, you want to do it.

[Wayne Brady]

Part of something cool, you definitely Want to do it?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah. It's also cool to be in on the ground floor of something. Like, don't wait until it's like, help make it a hit. You know what I mean? Like, lend your whatever power you have to kind of burnish the thing and be a part of something like before. You know, help turn it into what it became. And I think you did that for us real quick, Craig, just so people watching along or people who maybe haven't seen the episode in a while, just give us your kind of armchair summary of what this episode was.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, this is where Robin meets Barney's brother. And everybody else knows that Barney's brother is gay and black, except Robin. And he comes to town and comes bursting through the door and Robin's like, oh, I did not know that. Basically comes in and takes them all out on the town at this moment where everybody has coupled up except Barney. It's really an episode about Barney's loneliness and vulnerability and the fact that the one person he still feels so connected to is his brother. But the big reveal along the way is that his brother has committed the ultimate cardinal sin, according to Barney, which is falling in love and getting in a couple. And he's engaged. And so there's this huge reveal and Barney feels so betrayed. And Barney has to learn to accept that his brother is going to get married. The worst thing that could happen to anybody.

[Craig Thomas]

I would say the central joke of the episode is that except for being black and being gay, he is like Barney in every other way. And he was so gross. Barney considers, I think, James to be his lifelong wingman. Like if Ted deserts him, Marshall deserts him. He will always have James to roll through life and roll through the clubs with. And I wrote you this little ditty to sing to you in New York City. We'll be right back.

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[Craig Thomas]

And now back to the show.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, I loved your guys connection in that episode, Wayne. And another thing that was funny about how young our series was is we were having you come in and be like, okay, you're gonna be gay black Barney, go. And there was only one season of Barney. It's not like you were coming in season eight to be like, yeah, I know what the Barney thing is. There wasn't that much Barney. But you had to come in and be like, reveal that you had taught Barney so much. You were his big brother. You had to sort of out Barney, Barney. But in your own completely different way. Like, what did that feel like, coming in and having to hit all of those notes?

[Wayne Brady]

It was one of those things that. Because luckily, like I said, I'd watched the show, but rarely do you get the opportunity that someone says come in and do something very specific to what the other actor's doing. So in a way, the pressure was off because I knew what the legendary thing was. But also, now I have to also be my. That I've. That I've got to make James his own guy so that you guys know what he is. So that. So that was cool. And I think, I definitely think, I mean, like, I mean like, not to blow. Blow smoke, but like, you guys, the writing, it was there and then you just were able to take it and go to the other place with it. And then working with Neil was so great because I already knew Neil and we'd worked together, so we had a rapport.

[Josh Radnor]

What had you done? I was gonna ask you that. Yeah, I don't, I don't remember what you had done.

[Wayne Brady]

I'd, I, I'd a been a fan of Neil's and I done like, you know those specials when, when you get together and you.

[Craig Thomas]

And, and the Jerry Lewis telethon.

[Wayne Brady]

Yes, it was like those things. Not the actual, but something like that. But I did something with him and we crossed paths and we just had a great time talking. So I felt no weirdness when, when, when we met. It was so, well, welcoming and the ramp was there. Said, all right, well, let me just do what I do and see if you guys like it. Loving that first scene with the suit and being able to come in and talk about the suit. And he's like, hey, the high five. Is that back?

[Josh Radnor]

And that whole thing, give me five.

[Wayne Brady]

It was so cool.

[Josh Radnor]

You come into that scene like the Tasmanian devil from Looney Tunes. You burst into that apartment and just take it over. It is so great. And that, like, Wyoming speech. We're all going out. I forget if that's a later scene, but you give the speech about, like, people in Wyoming. We need to do this for people in basements in Wyoming. We're young, we're alive, we're in New York City. Get out here. That is a speech that could be like an audition speech. That was like a thing of beauty, what you did.

[Wayne Brady]

That was so much fun.

[Josh Radnor]

That is an excerptable piece. What you did there, Wayne.

[Craig Thomas]

Did you do any sort of, like, how much fidelity did you want to have to Nils. Barney? Like, did you study that or did you say, okay, I know the basic outlines of it, and I'm gonna make it my own?

[Wayne Brady]

Yes, I wanted it to be because I realized that if I was his older brother and he got some of his game from me, but we shouldn't be exactly alike. So I just wanted. So I just needed to play the broad strokes. Especially that where it comes from, oh, yeah, you know, we do this, we do that. But I felt that I should have a little more maturity than he did, so I wanted to be a little more grounded. So I did think about that as the scenes went on. And like I said, so much of it was on the paper that even when we get to the point later, he's a little betrayed by, hey, but we're doing this thing. He needed to feel like, yeah, I used to do that. That's great. And I felt that that was something that I could bring, is a little. That grounding big, big brother energy where Neil just had to be at a 10 all the time.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. You know, it's occurring to me that a lot of How I Met yout Mother episodes are microcosms of the macrocosm and How I Met yout Mother. You could make an argument. The entire show is about growing up. It's about a transition from a kind of young adulthood, post collegiate life into just a more of an adult kind of sense of responsibility, sense of your place in the world. And, you know, James really models that for Barney. It's like he's crossed over some, like, Rubicon, that Barney was like, I. You know, it's this kind of. I was talking with a friend of mine last night, and it's this great guy, Jamie, who I was friends with in my 20s. Right. And he's now. He just celebrated his 48th birthday. He's got two daughters. And we were talking about how, like, when we were younger, like, Youth was our brand. It was our whole thing we were offering New York City was like, we're young, we're here, we're excited. And then he was talking about a friend of his, this woman who is bummed. She was like, I didn't think aging would happen to me. I thought that somehow that was like a mistake other people made was like by getting older.

[Josh Radnor]

It's a glitch.

[Craig Thomas]

It's a glitch. Yeah. And it's like that won't happen to us. And there's, I don't know, there's just something like about the passage of time and you have to in some ways cooperate with it rather than fight against it or it gets kind of ugly.

[Wayne Brady]

That's why I think shows like this are so successful because you either have shows that are in the beginning stages, just like this is in terms of you graduate, college and this much of life, and then you have successful shows that are about the other part of that journey because it's coming and going. And even now, you know, like as an adult, adult, adult with a 22 year old kid. And just that same thing that your friend was feeling like it surely couldn't happen to me, you feel that age. And I think rather than fight against the machine, you have to go, oh, this is where I am now. And it's cool to watch journeys like that happen. And I don't think that I could appreciate my, my place either physically or work wise or anything if it wasn't for cool experiences like how I met your mother. When you are younger and you're feeling those things in that journey. So the show is a microcosm because you're in one state when you're doing it. And then when you're older looking back at you like, God, look at that guy. He had so much energy.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah. That's been one of the fun things for me and Craig is like the kind of the meta thing of like we're older looking back on this time in our life and the narrator on the show is older looking back on this very particular time in his life. So it allowed the making of the show, allowed us this time capsule that we're now getting to dip back into and kind of reflect. It's been really amazing. I do want to say, I do find it so funny, that high five thing. Like high fives are back because there's something about James and Barney. They think they're dictating the terms of the like culture. You know, he's got the blog. I'm bringing this back, like, I'm. It's like a all points bulletin. Like.

[Wayne Brady]

Like high five shoulders to. To bring this back to the unwashed masses.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Wayne Brady]

Boom.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes. We're declaring it. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

But it's very sweet how deferential Barney is to James. Like, your guys dynamic. Like, I'm not surprised to hear that you and Neil knew each other a little bit, because you came in and you guys had a real chemistry there. And it was very. It's very cool. Barney is such a reprehensible character. So, so much of the series, he' doing terrible things. He's being a dick to women. The moments we get to see his, like, vulnerability and how much he looks up to his big brother James and how much he clearly modeled his own personality on. On James, it gives this, like, other dynamic. Very rarely on the show do you see Barney utterly in awe of somebody. And the way he played that with you and then the place dramatically that it goes. I'm wondering what that felt like doing that with him because he's in such armor so much of the time. He even says in this episode, like, what do our suits mean, James? It means we're two man army. It's our armor. But his armor gets peeled away when he's around his big brother. That was really cool to see that dynamic with you guys and to see how raw and vulnerable Barney gets thinking he's losing his brother. You guys had real dramatic scenes in the end too. What was it like kind of finding that chemistry of being his idol and then getting utterly lashed out at. He yells at James. Right. You guys have a very tense fight scene. What did it feel like?

[Wayne Brady]

I absolutely loved it.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

Because once again, it goes to the credit of the stories that you guys were telling and the way that you wrote it that it was so rich to be able to. Because there is a version of this script that is bad TV where James and Barney get together and they're basically doing the two wild and crazy guy sketch from SNL the whole time. And then there's never any growth. The fact that James comes in kind of like that, then you find out that there's this twist that he has this whole thing. He's like, no, I'm settling down. I can't do that anymore. And that Barney, who we've seen as this hellion, lets go of that armor and you see that hurt little kid, which then you're able to link to later. Oh, my God. Like, I know that we'll probably end up talking about that episode, hopefully when it airs but like, with Ben. Ben La, to have that complete arc and this guy who's like, all I wanted was my dad. All I wanted was my dad. So then it. So then when that happened, I went, oh, my God. In the beginning, we were basically setting up that I was kind of his dad figure too, because dad wasn't there, so he had mom, and mom had it locked down. But I was all he had in that regard. So it just makes it so poignant and. And to be able to have those moments in the midst of all these laughs. You can't ask for a better gift as an actor, really.

[Josh Radnor]

I was just gonna say what I was struck by rewatching it more than when we made it. I was struck by that all through that first half of that episode before that big revelation comes out that James is engaged. James is protecting Barney. He's a little afraid of telling Barney the truth, but he's also. He knows it will crush Barney. Like a betrayal. So you're carrying this secret for like, 60 of the episode and kind of putting on this front of being the big brother. You know, your little brother needs you to be clearly biding your time to at some point tell him this huge, life changing piece of information. But I love the energy. You come in very hot, and you're this super fun, whirling dervish of energy, but you're holding onto this secret that you know is gonna come out, and it's great, and it's great, and once it comes out, everything changes. And now it's like this drama for, like, the second half of, you know, the last third of the episod. I thought you played that all so beautifully. You were sitting on that secret. You were amped up. It came out like it was. All the beats were so well done. Honestly, Wayne, it was such a great performance.

[Wayne Brady]

It was such a cool layer to play. Because then at that point, you even think about it, even with us being in the club, that whole thing is an act. And I think that we've all been to that point where, hey, man, yeah, we're doing this. But then I'm in the corner talk, talking to my guy. Oh, no, no, I'm with you. I'm with you. Having to carry that, that act up until you're like, look, man, I can't do this anymore. This is the truth. What a gift to be able to play that dichotomy and in a sitcom. You don't get to do that in a sitcom a lot. And I'm such a snob with the stuff. That makes me laugh, which I feel we all should be. So I love when you can have your cake and eat it too. And let me digress for a second. Thank you. Do you know, maybe you don't know how well loved this show is across the world. There were so many places that I go that depending on what you walk in the door with, they go, oh, yeah, that's Wayne from Whose Line. I love when you do that. Or they like the game show, or they mention other sitcoms or they mention stage. There's, like, a lot to pull from. I'm very, very lucky. Oh, man, I love, love, love the Chappelle show shit. Da, da, da. But there are people that. I'll go get coffee. Just when at Moulin Rouge there was this Brazilian tour group, half of the audience was Brazil shout out.

[Craig Thomas]

They love how I met my brother.

[Wayne Brady]

I didn't know I was signing autographs outside afterwards.

[Craig Thomas]

Wayne.

[Wayne Brady]

Wayne can barely speak English, but they love James how I met your mother you were doing. And in my mind, I was like, oh, that's very sweet. I was like, I wasn't on the show that much to make an impact. But then in talking to you, I remember the episodes, and each time that I was dropped in, it was this little gift.

[Josh Radnor]

They were impactful episodes.

[Wayne Brady]

They were impactful. So that's why I go, oh, yeah. I really was a part of something amazing that you guys built. So thank you for that.

[Josh Radnor]

Oh, my God, we were lucky to have you, man. It's such a gift to have had you on this show.

[Craig Thomas]

It's wild to travel and you see the global reach of the thing.

[Wayne Brady]

That's crazy for you.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yo. I mean, I got recognized at a puja in India, like a religious ceremony. I've been recognized in Africa and Tanzania. I mean, just wild. Like, you know, you forget it's so intimate, the filming of it. You forget that it's getting beamed all over the world and that it's. Life is. It's. It's. It's so much longer and bigger, if you're lucky, which this show. With this we have been. You know, I wanted to just double back. Like, one of the things we talk about with Barney a lot is status. And he's always trying to play high status. It's like kind of part of his. His bit. But with you, you're higher status than him, you know, And I loved watching that kind of role reversal, like his deference to you. But it also. One of the things about aging, going out with the way that Barney goes out the way that he wants to go out, the way he wants to make every single night that this epic night. It's almost like a professional athlete. At some point your body will be like, we're not doing. We can't do this anymore.

[Wayne Brady]

Like, we're.

[Craig Thomas]

We literally don't have the, the single stamina, which is the name of the episode, right? Like, we're. We're tapped out, you know? And I think in some ways there's a mercy to it. Like, I don't know if you guys are like this, but when I was a kid, I could sleep till 1130 in the afternoon. My parents would be like, the day's done. The day you slept a day away, you know, but at some point you just like, okay, I can't sleep past 8 now. Okay, now I can't sleep past 7:15. What's going on? And I think again, like, with rolling with it, I actually discovered that the, the mornings were pretty terrific. I never knew mornings because I. Unless I had, like in college, I. I just was like, oh, mornings are great. So I think, like, you kind of have to cooperate with nature a little bit and be like, okay, things are shifting, you know? And I think that's what James is like. He's going with it. He's like, this is. You know, it's not just his heart. It's. His body is also telling him to slow down.

[Wayne Brady]

Because if, if he's been an athlete of, of. Of the club games, right then, then at some point your knees give out. Man, my knees gave up. I've already got five rings. I was the MVP last year. I think we need to.

[Josh Radnor]

Nothing left to prove.

[Wayne Brady]

I've gotten to a point where, and this happened about 10 years ago. I can be in a club if someone goes, hey, let's go out. Sure. The whole nine. I can sit right there and go.

[Josh Radnor]

Wayne has fallen asleep. For those of you, I have no.

[Wayne Brady]

Problem going to sleep. And the club's like, look, Dude, I've got a 8A call time. I can shut it right now.

[Craig Thomas]

If I was at a club, which will never happen, but if I was at a club and I spotted Wayne Brady snoozing in the corner, I would think that was the most rock and roll thing I'd ever seen.

[Josh Radnor]

That's the best club in the world.

[Wayne Brady]

It's happened. How I fall asleep like Tao in Vegas because I'll say, I don't want to go to a club, guys. I don't do clubs. Come on, man, you're going to love it. And you get pulled. And they were sitting in the VIP section and they look at this and they go, okay, great.

[Josh Radnor]

Out. That's really.

[Craig Thomas]

I love that EDM is your lullab.

[Wayne Brady]

Well, I'm sure as hell not gonna listen to it while I'm awake.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I thought, I thought this show also started off in a really great way. Like the kind of couple hibernation, you know, where you're like 9 o', clock, time to get in bed. And, and, and there. This show also explores that split where some people start partnering off and other people are single. And it's a, it can be a real strain and stress on relationships. You know, you've got these people. Like your life does start changing. You do start downshifting the gears, you know. And Barney feels like, man, he's being left behind. The only hope he has is his brother. And also, I think there's something about the Barney and James both being unfathered or underfathered. And then James has stepped up into the role. You know, when you guys were talking about it made me feel like a father and son who are really close and how hard that would be for the father to say I've met someone. Because it feels like you're drifting away from the special, you know, bond.

[Josh Radnor]

Right. It's the closest Barney has to a dad, is his big brother. Yeah, it really is.

[Wayne Brady]

And, and so his whole thing is changing. And that was the one thing I feel that he felt that he could, that he could hang his hat on.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

It's like, at least I've got my bro. But he's been says it, he's coming into town, you are not ready. This is. He has this whole thing in his head of how this is going to be. And then to be the one to let him down in his mind to let him down. That's pretty deep. Which, which is a great. You really set up the kind of dude that Barney was. We always see him in shark mode.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

So the fact that we see him in a different light. Yeah, that, that, that, that was so great because it helps carry the rest of the show.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. I remember you bursting in that doorwayne and the whole crew. Cause we do not shoot in front of an audience. That's another thing that's different. Right? Energetically different. Three day shoot, pretending there's an audience there that is not there. And you burst in and you were so fucking good and so energetic that our audience was our crew, you know what I mean? The camera guys, the sound guys, that was our audience. And we Knew him and the gang. And we knew when the crew was into it. Cause there's an energy on that set because that's. And when they were not into it, there's an energy on that set when something's happening, something exciting is happening. And when you burst through that door, which I think Pam was smart enough to schedule it, that that was your first up. Like, when we meet James was first up, which is another one of the minor brilliances of, like, Pam and our ads and stuff. They're like, they knew that had to be how we all met you. The crew meets you as Robin meets you, as the audience meets you. It just like, it was real, but you're coming in and you're just killing it right away. And everyone on set was excited. That's my memory is you came in and took over. And what a. A lot of pressure because you've been built up to be like, this is the second coming of Christ. Barney is like my brother. There's never been a cooler person. And you had to walk in. You had to burst through that door and do it, and you did. But to no audience other than our camera guys.

[Wayne Brady]

That's your experience. My experience, especially coming into someone's home, you know, and I never lose track of that thing that if you come into someone's home, you respect the home. You want to elevate.

[Craig Thomas]

It's their rules, not your rules.

[Wayne Brady]

Yeah, right. So I've learned, and in therapy and in groups and whatnot, I've learned the language of I'm going to be of service to whatever I'm doing. So I'm going to leave the Wayne Brady bull crap, whatever my thing is. But what's this thing need? And this needed James in this way. So I was so nervous, I was sweating bullets. When I was in the dressing room. I was like, oh, my God, I don't want to mess. These guys show up.

[Josh Radnor]

We're all so crazy, nobody realizes. We all think we're the only crazy one to hear that from you. We're all crazy, and nobody thinks the other guy's crazy. You did not seem nervous.

[Wayne Brady]

I was so scared, as soon as action, I was scared to come through the door.

[Craig Thomas]

But you know what? It's so any actor will tell you that guest starring on a show that's a really tight ensemble is one of the hardest things you can do. Just psychologically, what you're saying, like, going into the thing, everyone's there every single day. You're like the new guy. And often the guest star is asked to do the most outrageous thing, the biggest, boldest entrance or whatever, like you had to do. But when I watched it last night, there was a thought. I was like, oh, yeah, this guy's a theater actor. Like, there was something very theatrical because sometimes film actors get a little, like, we act from here up. But you were, like, head to toe, engaged, you know, you even had, like, some dance moves in there, you know?

[Wayne Brady]

Yeah, because in my mind. Mind, I was thinking to. To arc the whole thing to the end. When I have that serious scene with Barney, I have to be big to be the guy that he is describing. And like, you're saying film and TV acting is so here. And sometimes you get trapped in the thing of. Oh, oh, no. This is part of my crazy, too. Yeah, because they all know me from doing that. If I come in and I'm not good enough, then. Then I fail, and what if I'm too big? Then it's like, Wayne can't act. He's da, da, da, da. So I came in with all of this garbage.

[Craig Thomas]

Isn't it funny? You can. You can come in with the anxiety of, I'm unknown. No one knows me. No one cares, whatever. Or you can come in with, like, people know me too much. Like, there's so many different ways to beat yourself up. It's crazy.

[Josh Radnor]

And they all hurt.

[Craig Thomas]

They all. They all hurt. Very cool. And this old man, he must admit he fell in love with you. New York City.

[Josh Radnor]

And now commercials. End of commercials. Back to show.

[Alec Lev]

Can I also just say that a high degree of difficulty that I think everyone obviously left here was. Was. First of all, you're setting up what is probably going to be a new character on the television show. Right. If you are giving a main character a sibling. Okay, you're telling the audience, here's number six, and that it's Wayne Brady who we all go, oh, man. Wayne Brady does 100, 200 different characters. Which one is.

[Wayne Brady]

You better bring it.

[Alec Lev]

Which one is this gonna be? And that within five seconds, you've answered both questions. Oh, this is a great sixth character. Oh, this is a great Wayne Brady. I can't wait for more of this.

[Josh Radnor]

You threaded the needle so much. It's so funny. You seem so. You do not seem like that crazy voice is going on in your head. It's deeply comforting to me to hear that you also have that voice because you just came in and were, like, physically embodying it so effortlessly. The idea that two seconds before you're beating yourself up is. I think it's public service. To share that with the audience.

[Craig Thomas]

But I think that's the theater actor. I think that's the theater actor. Because the theater actor just throws himself off the bridge and just trusts the bungee cord's gonna catch him. You know, it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

Because you have to. The voice that I hear all of the time, that when I even teach, I say, look, this is. This is what I'm hearing. It's always. But I've trained myself so much that. That you will not see that on the outside. But I'm hearing that screaming. And so I get to a point where, like, well, I'm here. I'm in costume now. Oh, there's an audience or there's cameras. You can't stop now. The time to stop would have been when you got the phone call weeks ago.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Wayne Brady]

And when you. So you're here now. Yeah, so. So that's my way of. And then once you jump and the bungee, then it's the most exhilarating feeling in the world. And so doing that was great.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. But I agree. You. You have to travel through the valley of fear and panic. I've never figured out a way to not do that. And, in fact, sometimes I think there's a way to be almost too relaxed where you're not gonna do your best work. Like, there's a point of, like, tension and readiness that is almost athletic. Right. Like, it's like before a game. Like, you wanna be loose, but you wanna be, like, just at the edge, you know, get. Put me out there.

[Wayne Brady]

You can't fool an audience. Some people can fool them just enough. But I truly believe this. After decades of doing this on stage, even nightly, now, when I'm doing this show or when I'm touring, I love the use of tension. If the audience senses that you're there and you're prowling like a cat and you're ready to do your thing, and you jump into whatever it is, they're there with you. And just like, when they're watching you on screen, they can feel the way that an edit made the scene build and the performances, if you come out, you're like, oh, man, I just did Kansas City last night, and I'm home. This is a cakewalk. As soon as you come out, laissez faire, they know it. Maybe they'll laugh, they'll still be with you, but there's something missing. And I promised myself that years ago. I said, I would rather not do the thing I'm doing at that second than go out there and not feel that even on camera, you have to show up because it's in your eyes.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I just hear it sounds like. What I hear you describing is like, being a professional, like, just being a pro. You know what I mean? And no one sustains a career as long as yours without being an absolute pro. But that. But what people don't understand is that your level of talent and accomplishment has nothing to do with whether or not you're gonna vomit in the stall before you go out there. Like, Maria Callis, like the greatest opera singer of the 20th century, apparently vomited before every performance from nerves.

[Josh Radnor]

Wow.

[Craig Thomas]

You know, there are. There are people that just. What can. Yeah, it's like, I think that in some ways is. Your level of fear is commensurate with how much you care. In a lot of ways.

[Josh Radnor]

I do that before every podcast record. Sorry if I don't look so good. Wade, I was very nervous to see you today.

[Wayne Brady]

Just green around the gills.

[Josh Radnor]

Do you know another moment I loved? I love the dramatic stuff at the end between you and Barney. I love the fight you have. I love the way when they reconcile, when you reveal, first of all, Neil's turn the moment he hears there's gonna be a baby.

[Craig Thomas]

It's one of my favorite Neil moments in the show.

[Josh Radnor]

I think babies are at Barney's kryptonite.

[Craig Thomas]

It's true.

[Josh Radnor]

That's true in the finale of the whole series, but we'll get there at some point. But, like, babies are Barney's vulnerability that.

[Craig Thomas]

Made my wife laugh so hard. There's gonna be a baby.

[Josh Radnor]

I, like, I was really moved by it, too. I was like. My eyes welled up in that scene because Barney's just so broken, and he just wants to be important to his brother. He thinks he's gonna lose his brother, who's kind of, like we said, his father, too. In some ways, his older brother's kind of his father. And the moment he hears that he's going to gain family, he's gonna gain a new role of being Uncle Barney. And it's funny cause the future narrator always refers to Uncle Barney like that was his nickname in the group. No, this is the moment he actually becomes Uncle Barney. And it's like his greatest honor of his life. And he says, I'm gonna be an uncle. And the way James says to him, the way you played it, Wayne, is for the rest of your life. And you say it to him in this way that is, like, so lovely and such a gift to him. And he's about to cry. I was watching it yesterday, knowing we're gonna talk, and I started to cry. This great replacement song to Skyway by this awesome band. The replacement starts to play. It is such a beautiful moment that takes us into that flash forward. A year later, we hint at where our characters are. A year later, we say, Marshall and Lily have gotten married in that year, which is a huge reveal.

[Craig Thomas]

You're not sure what Ted and Robin's status.

[Josh Radnor]

Robin and Ted. There's a little hint of neither of them are tired. Why are they not tired? Why do they seem to have single stamina? A year later, Robin and Ted. Are they now not together? And that was like, a little hint, little breadcrumb for the audience to think about. But the warmth of Barney being an uncle to this little baby and James giving him the ultimate gift of. Here's more. We didn't get to have a dad growing up, but I've given you a nephew. I was so moved by it. It was a really beautiful ending, him.

[Wayne Brady]

Being an uncle and loving babies, just like in the finale, like you said. I really feel that it is also because of his origin story. Growing up, James was his guy. Always seeking dad. Reading those letters or talking about, oh, dad is this. And dad's doing that. It's just natural that this guy would turn around and parents and want to parent that child or be able to protect that child. Because we all want to protect the little child that we couldn't protect.

[Josh Radnor]

Absolutely. It's that.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah. So, so true. And also, I think James is doing some very good fathering of Barney in that moment. Like, he's actually stepping forward and going, it's time for all of us to grow up. I think sometimes when men are, like, don't have a kind of role model. It doesn't have to be a father. It could be any sort of, like, strong male role model. They'll seek what it means to be a man from all sorts of, like, insane ideas. You know, they'll cobble it together from, like, all sorts of disparate sources. That might not be the best kind of game plan.

[Josh Radnor]

Right.

[Craig Thomas]

And, you know, part of a kind of side plot of this whole show is watching Barney, like, learn. It's really watching a bunch of people grow into their, you know, like, assuming, like, growing out of their boy or their girl and into their adult Persona, you know?

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, we're all adolescents to, like, 30, basically, is the premise of this show.

[Wayne Brady]

Absolutely.

[Craig Thomas]

Hey, Craig. That was the voice of Megan Mullally, right? Doing the.

[Josh Radnor]

I was just gonna Say, does everyone know that trivia, Fun fact, the voice, you know, the Charlie Brown's parents, like, you know, you don't see her face. You don't see Barney and James mom's face. That's Megan Mullally's voice. And it was uncredited, I think at the time. I think that only came out later because she was just like a friend of the show and she was like, yeah, I'll do that.

[Craig Thomas]

Well, she, Megan had, remember she had a talk show at that time and.

[Josh Radnor]

I think she banged it on.

[Craig Thomas]

Very first talk show appearance was on Megan Mullally. She was so lovely. And Nick Offerman, her husband was hanging around on set and was so nice to me. And that was before he was on Parks and Rec or anything. And I've always like loved the two of them because they were so good. But then I think our first all cast appearance was on the Megan Mullally show. She invited all of us on so she was already like a bit of a friend of the show.

[Josh Radnor]

I feel like she did it when, during that appearance. I feel like you guys went there and she banged out that line, those few lines for us as Barney' and Barney and James this month.

[Craig Thomas]

Hey, when, when, when Barney throws the phone at you and you have that like complicated like juggling of the phone, was that. I can't remember, is that planned or was that something that just happened? Like remember you, you the phone?

[Josh Radnor]

Like, yeah, there's like a hot potato phone moment. That was very impressively done. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

But it was such good like physical prop business. And I was just wondering if you guys planned that.

[Wayne Brady]

We didn't. I. I don't remember us planning it as such. It was like we knew that, oh yeah, I'm gonna get it and then maybe I'll do. So I had to come up with it in the second. It's like, don't screw it up and drop the phone, but just make it look.

[Craig Thomas]

I thought that was great. I also think it's funny that Marshall's entire C story is he likes fruity drinks and doesn't feel like he can drink them.

[Josh Radnor]

That's all he has. He has one simple drive.

[Craig Thomas]

I also thought, Craig, that this was a really subtle, low key, very pro gay marriage without being over the head.

[Josh Radnor]

Like it is a social commentary episode without hitting it over. Hitting over the habit.

[Craig Thomas]

I loved the, the exchange between Barney and James. I don't support this. Gay marriage. Not gay marriage, marriage, marriage.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, it's great. Barney is like super open minded and accepting. He just hates marriage. Of all kinds.

[Wayne Brady]

Which is.

[Josh Radnor]

Which was. I love the kind of social satire we got to.

[Craig Thomas]

I love the line two by two, onto your arc of sexless boredom.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, yeah. It's a great line.

[Wayne Brady]

That's. It's you. You guys. And like I said in the beginning, the fact that you didn't hit it over the head, but the casting of me in that way, in that role, being able to talk about gay marriage like that and the way that race is even discussed without being discussed very ahead of. Even when it was done, people still didn't want to really dip their toes into having certain discussions, especially on a comedy like, oh, let's leave that to Roseanne. But the fact that you could do it and because the show was so funny, you got away with it.

[Craig Thomas]

Well, you almost could watch the whole episode and you could miss it. It's woven in. Even Lily has that little Republican joke.

[Josh Radnor]

Yes.

[Craig Thomas]

Which is really funny. But also, this is pro legalization of gay marriage. This was not very much.

[Josh Radnor]

So it's a progressive episode, and Barney is progressive in it. He just doesn't want anyone to get married of any type of person.

[Craig Thomas]

Craig, sometimes I forget. And we might have talked about this in season 1 1, 2005, and 6 when we were doing these first two seasons. Th. This is Bush, too. This is George W. Bush in his second term. This was like a whole other era of politics. The national conversation was, like, very different.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, yeah. This is. This is our pro gay marriage episode without us ever calling it that. Really? Exactly.

[Craig Thomas]

Hey, why did you hide. What's. What's James's husband's name? Tom. He's, like, blocked at the end.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, yeah, I know. It's funny because we saw his picture, by the way. Fun fact that is Rob Fox, associate producer Rob Fox, who worked on How Much yout Mother that Is. That he's. He's in the picture as Tom. As James's fiance.

[Craig Thomas]

But could you. Could you not get him for the wedding? Because he was. He was kind of blocked behind a person. And Jordana kept saying, why won't we be? Why can't we see?

[Josh Radnor]

No, it was weird because we had already seen his picture, so we could have seen his face. I don't. Honest. Honest to God, I don't quite know why we did. I. I think in case we were ever gonna cast somebody else.

[Wayne Brady]

Bingo. That's exactly what it was. I thought, oh, maybe that if there was a guest that was a good enough Get. That you guys wanted. You wanted to.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, you didn't want to establish him.

[Josh Radnor]

It was our associate producer who's not an actor, so we knew we weren't bringing him back if we ever were gonna make him a character.

[Wayne Brady]

What's funny is it's Jay Rodriguez who was so different than that picture.

[Josh Radnor]

Right. It's completely different. Right. It's total. Total continuity gaffe years later. But we'll get there.

[Craig Thomas]

Well, people change when they get married. That's what Barney's saying.

[Wayne Brady]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

That's why.

[Wayne Brady]

Making a point.

[Josh Radnor]

Right. They change ethnicities, storytelling choice.

[Craig Thomas]

I, you know, I also thought it's a great. It's one of the great him tags with the baby.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. So Barney talking to that baby is so cute. And so we're going to bro.

[Craig Thomas]

We're going to bro out uncle and nephew style. And the kid in the suit and the. I mean, it's really good.

[Josh Radnor]

How about the smile from that baby?

[Craig Thomas]

How they. How did Pam get that baby to smile?

[Josh Radnor]

It was so good. Wayne, we have to let you go.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

You have a show to do.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Save that voice, Wayne.

[Josh Radnor]

Stop talking to us.

[Wayne Brady]

Yes, I do.

[Josh Radnor]

But.

[Wayne Brady]

But I also want to know, where's that baby now? Because that baby would be like, what?

[Craig Thomas]

I know that baby is at Emory University.

[Wayne Brady]

Guys, thank. Thank you so much for talking with me, man. Such memories.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, man, so good to see you.

[Josh Radnor]

We'll call you again later. Hopefully you come back and talk about the one with Ben Vereen, which is another all time classic episode, one of several you gifted upon the show.

[Wayne Brady]

That's a classic, buddy.

[Josh Radnor]

That's a classic. And we got you to sing in that one. That was the only thing I'm missing in this one was we didn't get you singing, but we're like, next time we're getting this guy singing at some point. And we did with Ben.

[Wayne Brady]

And that episode is one of Ben's. Ben and I still talk about it because I see. See Ben, he's like my godfather. And we loved the fact that we were able to be on cam camera together as father and son. Just made both of our lives. So thank you.

[Josh Radnor]

The legendary Ben Vereen. So cool.

[Craig Thomas]

All right, Wayne, thanks so much.

[Josh Radnor]

We. We loved having you, buddy. Thanks. Thanks for doing this.

[Wayne Brady]

Thanks, fellas. All right, y', all, I'll talk to you later.

[Alec Lev]

Hey, everyone, before we finish up the show, what happens sometimes is we record podcasts and then we come with other things we want to say in sort of him style. We're now flashing. Will this be forward backwards. I don't know what this is, but we're going to flash To Craig, who has one other thing he just wants to point out.

[Josh Radnor]

Just want to own one little logic thing about this episode and its relationship to other things we've seen about Barney's past. The chapter of Barney's life where he was a hit is an interesting thing to contemplate in the scheme of James and Barney. You know, Barney growing up idolizing his big brother, wanting to be like him. But clearly, if we piece together the backstory, I think it's that Barney had a little rebel finding himself phase around college and early twenties of becoming this hippie, right? And kind of going the other way with it. I think he said, I'll strike out on my own and I'll become this other person for a while. Maybe he did that for that woman he was in love with. And then when she broke his heart and left him for this suited up guy, I think it steered Barney back into like, no suits, getting out there, womanizing, making it all happen. I think that it sort of fits together. Like Barney. Barney had this weird little side hippie journey. This is very much us having our cake and eating it too. I will say that too, because we wanted to do that origin story. But I think the idea, if you piece it all together, is Barney had this weird hippie chapter before then. Coming back to, no, I need to reclaim idolizing my brother. Even though we didn't say that in that episode because we didn't have that idea yet. But I like to think it all tracks because he says, no, the hippie thing didn't work. I got my heart broken being that vulnerable. I need to suit up, to armor up. And that's why I like what he and James talk about about it. The way Barney frames it, that's our armor. We're a two man army. Such an insight in how Barney sees the world. He let himself be vulnerable and he put the armor. He put even more armor back on after he got his heart broken by Shannon. So that's sort of how I frame it together in my mind while also acknowledging that we're finding this stuff in real time as we're writing it and shooting it. And you hope that it all fits together. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. But I like to believe this can fit together retroactively.

[Alec Lev]

And are you just making this shit up right now or are you like, at the time?

[Josh Radnor]

No, we talked about it at the time. We talked about it at the time where, like this fights it a little. But I think the narrative works, right, because there are these different timelines. People do have these different chapters. He can have idolized James, tried a whole other identity, the way people do in college and a little bit after. And then kind of said, no, no, I'm gonna double down on this earlier Persona. I'm gonna suit up and armor up again. And that's, you know, that's where we meet Barney.

[Alec Lev]

Okay. Now here we are at the end of the show.

[Craig Thomas]

Josh, man, that was so fun to have Wayne on.

[Josh Radnor]

We love Wayne.

[Craig Thomas]

We'll definitely have him back on. So, yeah, we're wrapping up this episode about single stamina. Was this the 11th episode of season two?

[Alec Lev]

10.

[Craig Thomas]

10. Episode 10. Okay. Wow. We are really cruising through.

[Josh Radnor]

We're getting halfway through here.

[Craig Thomas]

It's unbelievable. It takes a lot less time to talk about these episodes than it took to film them.

[Josh Radnor]

It seems way less, way simpler.

[Craig Thomas]

So we had a lot of questions come in around why you and Craig and the writers chose to make James gay and black. Like, where did that come from from. And what was your thinking behind that?

[Josh Radnor]

Well, we wanted to do a pro gay marriage episode. Honestly, we wanted to do an episode. We really loved the idea that Barney kind of has these surprisingly progressive politics or attitudes towards things at times. He does. He has sort of a surprisingly open minded approach to certain things. And then this incredible prejudice against the actual basic thing of marriage. It's like non denominational. It's not race, it's not creed, it's not religion. It's just marriage. We just love that he's just anti marriage. And once we hit upon that idea that Barney just hates all marriage and has nothing to do with who the people are, we just like that. We like that there was something kind of weirdly egalitarian and like progressive about that. He's just like, I don't want anyone awesome to ruin their lives by getting married. And it had nothing to do. And once we were in that area of Barney's kind of attitude towards marriage, just being prejudiced against marriage, not the people. Somehow that led us to wait a second. We don't know a lot about his upbringing. We know he did not know his dad. We knew that we knew a little bit about Staten Island, a little bit about his mom. And we thought what could be a surprising fun way to really show that Barney had this very unique family situation. And we wanted to give him somebody. We wanted to give him somebody else that he loved, somebody else that he looked up to. And we thought it would be really interesting if Barney Stinson's brother is gay. And then the idea that the Two different dads. And I think down the line, we thought it would just be interesting that they each want to find their dad and we'll probably do something with that someday.

[Alec Lev]

Right.

[Craig Thomas]

Could you imagine if Barney had also horrible politics and social views in addition to everything else? It'd be like, we can't have this guy be a serious regular. He would be unbearable. Terrible. Yeah.

[Alec Lev]

This episode was nominated for a Glad Media Award. Craig, do you recall this?

[Josh Radnor]

I forgot about. That's. That is an honor. I forgot about that. That's lovely.

[Craig Thomas]

Well, I think in some ways we talked about this a little bit, but contextualizing it in a time where there was this, like, very kind of anti gay marriage Republican administration was in power. And it, you know, even Obama, I was listening to. Who was I listening to? Someone on Ezra Klein. But they were talking about, oh, oh, Ta. Nehisi Coates, the conversation he had with.

[Josh Radnor]

I heard that too.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

You kind of forget that Obama at first was not, you know, all in on that.

[Craig Thomas]

And that's right.

[Josh Radnor]

God embraced. Embraced that once he was president, which was actually strategically brilliant.

[Craig Thomas]

But, you know, a lot of. A lot of times culture shifts before politics shifts.

[Josh Radnor]

It's true.

[Craig Thomas]

You know, they say that, like, the effect. They called it. I think they called it the will and grace effect.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

That will and grace was like an incredibly humanizing. It brought, like, delightful. It made it no big deal. You know, it made.

[Josh Radnor]

Comedy can do that. That's what this episode was. Comedy can do that. Comedy can humanize issues. And I think that's what we wanted to do without being preachy about it. We wanted it to be funny. But if you look underneath the funny and we're saying something about how everybody's equal, everybody should be able to love whoever, and that Barney should be able to hate marriage as an institution having nothing to do with the people that are getting married. And it's true. Thinking back 19 years, things were very different. By the way, Neil Patrick Harris in season two, that's the moment he publicly announced that he is a gay man. And he was. He announced. I don't remember. It was kind of right around when this episode was being shot and came out. I think we'll maybe hopefully someday get to talk to Neil about that. But it was really interesting to us that there we were in this moment where Neil was saying, hey, this is who I am. I'm playing this womanizing guy, but I'm a gay man. I have a very serious partner who we then went on to marry. And it was just interesting. To explore all of that 19 years ago in 2006. Right. And that's part of what led to this episode.

[Craig Thomas]

Did you guys think of it as. I don't think you guys thought of this as social activism of any kind because that would make it less funny in certain ways. I don't think you had an ideological agenda, but by making it no big deal, it became incredibly political.

[Josh Radnor]

Yes. If you point out the absurdity of making it a big deal at all. And Barney's attitude just against marriage in general is so absurd that we had fun with it before. We were trying to preach about it. We were trying to just have fun with it. And if you look underneath, there's something actually being said there.

[Craig Thomas]

The fact that you guys were nominated for a GLAAD Media Award really speaks to the effect, like something of. In this particular moment, in this particular time, with those particular politics, like just putting something on the air that was like a shrug around the whole thing was, I think, like, really smart and really effective.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, Barney Stinson's all time idol in the entire universe is gay.

[Craig Thomas]

Right.

[Josh Radnor]

Is a gay man who has better game than Barney. And Barney learned everything he knows from this gay. His gay black older brother. And we thought no other shows doing exactly this storyline. That's. That's when you're. You're a little excited, you're a little scared, you're a little like, what the hell are we doing here? But those are the things that Chase and we were excited to do.

[Craig Thomas]

I do, I do remember, Craig, sometimes I would ask you or Carter for, like, you know, I was always like, do. How much do I want to know what's coming? But I would often say, like, what's, what's coming down the pike? Like, what do you guys got? And you, I remember you saying, like, we're writing an episode about Barney's brother and he's gay and he's black, but otherwise completely like Barney in every other way.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

I just thought that was such a funny idea.

[Wayne Brady]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, that was it. That was the spark. We hit that and we said, that's. That's gold. And then we said we have to cast it with the perfect person. And I like to believe that. We sure did. And Wayne, thank you for doing this.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, thanks so much, Wayne. And yeah, we'll see you next time. Thanks. I am guilty. Please acquit me. All sins are forgiven in New York City.

[Alec Lev]

How we made your mother is hosted and executive produced by Josh Radner and Craig Thomas and is presented and distributed by the Office, Ladies Network and Odyssey. This episode is also executive produced by Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey. The show is produced and edited by Me Me Alec Lev and our co producer is Doug Matica. Our audio producer and mixer is Alex Reeves at Point Da Blue Studios. Our digital content producer, AKA Gen Z Master is Emily Blumberg. Artwork by John Morrow. Please follow, rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or your podcast player of choice. It really does help the show. Our theme song is New York City by our own Josh Radner, with additional music by Craig Thomas and Andrew Majewski. Special thanks to Lola Kennedy and Elliot Connors. Visit how we made your mother.com to learn more and click on the contact page to send us an email or a voice message. Your stories and questions are an important part of the show. Subscribe to Josh Radner's Muse Letters on Substack and check out his music and everything else at JoshRadner. Order Craig Thomas's debut novel, that's Not How It Happened, wherever books are sold, and check out his other published [e-mail] and you can subscribe to My own Dead Fathers Society, also on Substack, to learn more about how you make a difference. This show's ongoing campaign to raise money for congenital pediatric heart disease research, Check out the make and Difference tab at the top of our website. People will, in fact dance.

[Wayne Brady]

The real.

[Craig Thomas]

Question it just hit me. Am I in love with you or just New York City?