How We Met Marshall's Calves | S2E3 "Brunch"

Summary

How We Made Your Mother – S2E3 “Brunch” Recap

Episode Title: How We Met Marshall’s Calves | S2E3 “Brunch”
Podcast Hosts: Josh Radnor & Craig Thomas
Podcast Date: November 3, 2025
Main Theme: A deep-dive into HIMYM’s “Brunch” episode: exploring family communication, sitcom legacy, daring narrative structure, and the art of interwoven comedy.

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Josh Radnor (Ted Mosby) and Craig Thomas (series co-creator) revisit “Brunch,” the third episode of HIMYM Season 2—a standout that collides Ted’s Ohio family with his New York life, revealing generational disconnects and relationship truths. They reflect on narrative structure, casting coups (Michael Gross!), and why this episode’s multilayered farce is more than just uproarious comedy.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. “Brunch” in Context (02:21–07:56)

• Historical Placement: Written by Stephen Lloyd, aired October 2, 2006.
• Multiple Narratives: The episode opens in the midst of chaos and backs up three times to replay events from different character perspectives.
• Storylines Intertwined: Around a single brunch table, the A plot (Ted/Robin and his parents), B plot (Marshall & Lily’s tension), and C plot (Barney’s desperate need for parental approval) unfold.

Craig Thomas [07:11]:
"What I like about our twist on it is we do it three times. We back up three different times and re-see the events from three different perspectives. I thought that made it special.”

2. Casting Michael Gross—Sitcom Royalty (07:57–16:38)

• Family Ties Homage: Casting Michael Gross (Steven Keaton from “Family Ties”) as Ted’s father was enormous for Josh, who grew up watching him.
• Both hosts reminisce about Thursday “monoculture,” naming the dazzling NBC “Must See” lineup and its impact.

Josh Radnor [10:09]:
"It’s hard to do a family show that is both moving but not treacly."

Craig Thomas [11:55]:
"I think Young Republican in a suit influenced Barney Stinson... part of the influence."

• Generational TV Legacy: HIMYM as a structural descendant of sitcoms like “Family Ties” and “Cheers.”

3. Family Communication & Generational Disconnect (16:38–22:07)

• Ted’s Family = Real Life: Both hosts discuss their own Midwestern families and the “love languages” that sometimes fail to connect across generations.

Josh Radnor [17:02]:
"I don’t think I had to dig very deep for, like, parents from Ohio, and you kind of want to take them a little deeper and they’re, you know..."

• Honesty & Closure (19:01): They note the bittersweet twist in the episode: Ted’s family finally opens up, but honesty brings complicated, sometimes uncomfortable clarity.

Craig Thomas [22:07]:
"Are you in the same place at the same time? ...and that was the Ted and Robin piece. In this episode, you sense the timing does not align."

• Love vs. Life Story: Invoking Esther Perel: some loves are "love stories," fewer become "life stories."

4. Meta Narratives and Narrative Structure (22:13–24:46)

• HIMYM’s structure in “Brunch”—playing with in medias res, shifting perspectives, “Pulp Fiction meets Family Ties.”
• Barney’s Depth: The episode reveals Barney’s desperate need to be central in Ted's life, not just a comic lothario.

Craig Thomas [22:34]:
"He’s one of the hugest influences. It’s basically hailing YouTubers. Pulp Fiction meets Family Ties. That’s the quick log line."

Josh Radnor [24:02] (on Barney’s odd claim):
"Sometimes I loved one word sentences…"

5. Comedy Deep Dives: Marshall’s Calves (24:36–27:14)

• The genesis of Marshall’s calves and “zip-away pants” comes from real-life comedy writers with surprising confidence.
• “Big guns” in a relationship—those odd, quirky physical features you end up loving.

Josh Radnor [26:46]:
“Jordana is obsessed with my earlobes now... She’ll go, look at those lobes.”

• Cast Commitment: No one in the main cast is afraid to “lean in” to absurd gags.

6. Barney as Sitcom-Protagonist, Costume Choices, and Series In-Jokes (27:14–42:43)

• Barney’s Meta Energy:
  • He alone seems to realize he's “in a sitcom,” playing to the "audience" with entrance applause.
  • Ted, by contrast, is convinced he’s in an indie film.

Josh Radnor [29:02]:
“He’s expecting entrance applause… I always said Ted was an indie film character dropped into a sitcom.”

• Series In-Jokes: “83%” as Barney’s statistic debuts here—arising from writers’ debates on what’s the ‘perfect’ plausible number.
• Wardrobe Revelations: Josh's confusion (and sometimes embarrassment) about odd shirt choices (cowboy shirts, deep buttons).

Craig Thomas [41:37]:
“It’s infantilizing, to be honest... There’s an infantilizing quality. Right. To begin. Okay, now wear this.”

7. Comedic Darkness: Stephen Lloyd’s Influence (30:32–32:20, 42:05)

• Acute, sometimes dark backstories (dead grandmas, strange relatives): hallmarks of Lloyd’s writing.
• Lily’s spicy roll and Marshall’s calves as physical comedy highlights.

8. Farce and Heart: The Signature HIMYM Move (47:09–48:02)

• The episode’s “zany farce” is always balanced with honest, even melancholy, moments.

Josh Radnor [47:09]:
“There’s always a moment that’s just a little more wistful or a little more of like an exhale.”

• Writers wanted strong early Season 2 episodes with “big comedy,” but without sacrificing HIMYM’s unique narrative rhythm.

---

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On HIMYM’s Narrative:

  • Josh: “This is quite literally Pulp Fiction.” (22:17)
  • Craig: “It’s basically Pulp Fiction meets Family Ties.” (22:34)

• On Family Ties:

  • “Family Ties was probably like pound for pound my favorite show. Like just moment to moment delight.” (Josh, 11:05)
  • “A young Republican in a suit influenced Barney Stinson.” (Craig, 11:55)

• On Generational Patterns:

  • “A man often meets his destiny on the road he took to avoid it.” (Josh, 49:58)

• On Cast Energy:

  • “You didn’t have to step in and go, 'okay, do it like this.' Like, you knew Jason.” (Josh, 27:28)
  • “The more ridiculous, the more you were looking forward to it.” (Craig, 27:59)

• On Aging and Forgiveness:

  • “The work of forgiving your parents becomes more urgent the older you get...” (Josh, 54:12)
  • “Acceptance piece of it and ourselves and others is like a really, really kind of a missing piece...” (Craig, 55:21)

---

Timestamps for Noteworthy Segments

• Historical Context, Writing Credits: 03:47–04:24
• Michael Gross & Family Ties Nostalgia: 07:57–16:38
• Generational Communication: 16:38–20:14
• “Love Story vs. Life Story” Discussion: 20:27–22:07
• Episode Structure & Pulp Fiction Homage: 22:13–24:46
• Marshall’s Calves and Relationship Quirks: 24:36–27:14
• Barney’s Meta-Awareness & Character Chemistry: 27:14–29:36
• Dark Backstories, Stephen Lloyd Style: 30:32–32:20, 42:05
• Costume Questions & Set Life: 37:00–41:57
• Listener Question on Generational Patterns: 48:59–54:12
• Listener Letter, Teacher’s Impact: 56:50–60:37
• Audiobook Preview (Craig's Debut Novel): 63:06–67:38

---

Listener Questions & Letters

Generational Curses & Repeating Patterns (48:59–54:12)

• The hosts discuss whether we unconsciously repeat family patterns, referencing the concept of imago (from Harville Hendrix) and the tug-of-war between nature, nurture, and conscious change.

Josh Radnor [49:58]:
“A man often meets his destiny on the road he took to avoid it.”

Craig Thomas [52:03]:
"And then sometimes you catch yourself doing shit you didn't want to do. And you're in the middle of saying it, you're like, I can't believe I'm being this cliche right now."

Listener Letter—The Healing Power of HIMYM (56:50–60:37)

• A fan from Utah, Jonathan, shares how finding HIMYM in school (in Mexico!) gave him hope, inspired his love for journalism, and taught him resilience—echoing the enduring power of shared TV.

---

Closing Thoughts

The episode concludes with Josh and Craig reflecting on “Brunch” as the perfect microcosm of HIMYM: riotous, layered comedy backed by real emotional stakes and human foibles. They also share appreciation for Stephen Lloyd’s dark comedic genius and listeners’ personal stories. The recurring theme: sitcoms, at their best, aren’t just funny—they help us make sense of ourselves and our families, one farcical brunch at a time.

---

Exclusive Bonus

Audiobook Preview:
Stick around after the credits for a sneak peek of Craig Thomas’s debut novel, “That’s Not How It Happened,” read by Josh Radnor and Cobie Smulders—a special treat for podcast subscribers.

---

How We Made Your Mother delivers nostalgia, craft, comedy, and emotional intelligence—just like “Brunch” itself.

Transcript

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Did you know that parents rank teaching financial literacy as the toughest life skill? That's where Greenlight comes in. The debit card and money app made for families. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores, automate allowance and track spending with real time notifications. Kids learn how to earn, save and spend responsibly while parents have peace of mind knowing smart money habits are being built with guardrails in place. Try Greenlight Risk free [e-mail] Odyssey that's that's greenlight.com Odyssey Hey, Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

[Josh Radnor]

Now I don't know if you've heard.

[Craig Thomas]

But Mint's Premium Wireless is $15 a month. But I'd like to offer one other perk.

[Josh Radnor]

We have no stores.

[Craig Thomas]

That means no small talk, crazy weather we're having.

[Josh Radnor]

No, it's not.

[Craig Thomas]

It's just weather.

[Josh Radnor]

It is an introvert's dream.

[Craig Thomas]

Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Cobie Smulders]

Of $45 for three month plan. $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. Cementmobile.com.

[Craig Thomas]

Hey everybody. Make sure to listen after the credits for an exclusive look. Listen. I guess it's more of a listen than a look for the the audiobook version of my debut novel, that's Not How It Happened. It's told from four different perspectives and two of the narrators for the audiobook are none other than Josh Radner and Cobie Smulders. And. And at the end of today's podcast episode, we're going to play an exclusive clip from the book where you'll hear a little bit of Josh and Kobe. And it's going to be Legend. Wait for it. To the end of the credits.

[Josh Radnor]

I'm alone. What a pity I won't be soon in New York City when I see you. Please permit me to tell you everything in New York City. Welcome back to another episode of How We Made youe Mother where I, Josh Radner, talk about the TV show How I Met yout Mother with series co creator Craig Thomas. Hello, Craig.

[Craig Thomas]

Hey, Josh.

[Josh Radnor]

Hey.

[Craig Thomas]

That's all I got. I should say more words. There was a pause. I'm just, I have more. Just. I'm excited to be here. I just didn't want to. I wanted. I didn't know if you were going to keep talking and let's just, let's just keep. Now, now you talk more.

[Josh Radnor]

You don't seem that excited to be here.

[Craig Thomas]

I'm very excited I love this episode. This is a good one. We got a good one today.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, we're having a great time. We're going back through how I met your mother. We're already up to the second season, episode three. This episode is called Brunch. By the way, I starred on this show. I played ted Mosby from 2005 to 2014. Craig Co created the show with Carter Bayes, and we're rolling back through it. My wife has never seen the show. Jordana, my wife. So we're watching it. She's a binger. She's frustrated. Both our wives, we learned, are frustrated at the slow pace we're having to go.

[Craig Thomas]

We were talking about this because we have to record certain episodes out of order. We literally already did that today. And my wife refuses to jump ahead, and I think yours does, too. We just discovered they both feel this way. Mostly I'm watching it with my wife. You're definitely watching it with her because the whole. This whole podcast kind of came from her never having seen the show. And so she's like, I'm not jumping ahead. And I do respect that.

[Josh Radnor]

She would be infuriated if I watched an episode without her.

[Craig Thomas]

So we're having to watch twice, you.

[Josh Radnor]

And I. I'll tell you this. They go down easy.

[Craig Thomas]

They do. They're very watch. They're too short. God damn it. I wish it was a full fucking half hour. Sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to get there. And I wish we had at least. I wanted to be 25 minutes. Can it just be 25? Can we go back and make it 25 minutes?

[Josh Radnor]

So this is episode three of season two. The episode is called Brunch. Alec, give us a little historical context.

[Alec Lev]

I will tell you that it was written by Steven Lloyd, and it was released unto the World on October 2nd in the year 2006.

[Craig Thomas]

The great Stephen Lloyd, one of the other longest serving. I like that term because it makes it seem like he's a Supreme Court justice. One of the longest serving How I Met yout Mother writers Stephen Lloyd had.

[Josh Radnor]

A lifetime appointment to the writers room of How I Met yout Mother.

[Craig Thomas]

Joined Leeds partway through season one, but then went all the way with us. So besides Chris Harris and Courtney Kang, I guess the third longest serving. How much Mother writer Stephen Lloyd, I.

[Josh Radnor]

Think will be delighted that I remember this. The reason he was late in joining us was because he was on a show where Pamela Anderson worked in a bookstore, and it was called Stacked. Do you remember that?

[Craig Thomas]

Absolutely.

[Josh Radnor]

Which, by the way, is A great name is a great name for a show about Pamela Anderson working in a bookstore. By the way, Pamela Anderson, the documentary about her, which my sisters both urged me to watch, is very moving.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, that's cool. I would totally watch that. I saw her in a Tennessee Williams play in Williamstown this summer in this super weird, experimental Camino real, like really weird, avant garde, like two hour Tennessee William, very infrequently produced piece. And she was great. And she was like part of a really avant garde, super weird theater experience the weekend that Naked Gun came out. So she's promoting Naked Gun. And she was like, listen, I gotta leave my interviews. I have to go star in the weirdest fucking Tennessee Williams play at this small college theater.

[Josh Radnor]

I think that's incredibly rock star. Pamela Anderson has a big movie coming out and she's like, I'll be in Williamstown doing Tennessee Williams if you need me.

[Craig Thomas]

It was the opening weekend of that movie written by that movie written by Doug and Dan, our two. How much Mother writers and very funny. And as all that shit was blowing up, I'm texting them. I'm like, how am I seeing Pamela Anderson in Tennessee Williams while she's promoting your movie? They're like, yeah, she's cool.

[Josh Radnor]

Can I say my favorite line from Naked Gun? Which I found to be delightful, by the way.

[Craig Thomas]

Very funny. Very, very funny.

[Josh Radnor]

When she says, I came out here for college and Liam Neeson says, ucla. And she says, I see it every day.

[Alec Lev]

I live here.

[Craig Thomas]

I mean, a a so silly.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. Yes. Great work. Doug and Dan.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, Doug and Dan didn't join us till many seasons feud many seasons hence. So Steven Lloyd, one of the other all time great. How am I Chamundra writers. Hilarious. Well, he'll be on here, so thank.

[Josh Radnor]

You, Steven, for joining us from Stacked. And so Craig, give us a little summary of what this episode is.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. So this is the third episode of this new condition where Marshall and Lily are broken up. And this is an episode mostly about Ted's relationship to his parents, which I love this idea of being in your 20s and realizing I'm not able to talk to my parents as adults and they're not being adults in their way of talking to me. And it is Ted's parents visit from Ohio and a lot of stuff comes out about all of the characters trying to. As they try to interact with Ted's parents. And Ted and Robin go through a certain kind of journey of questioning their own early nascent couplehood by looking at Ted's own parents. And Ted learns A huge and devastating fact about his parents at the end of the episode. But the episode is told in this interesting structure where we begin in a very confusing scene. Even rewatching it with Rebecca, my wife, who had seen the episode, she's like, wait, at the end of episode two, Marshall and Lily were kind of on okay terms at the end of that one where Lily kind of skunked Barney with that ruse about she was twins. Why are they fighting? I'm like, wait for it. We're beginning at the end, it's gonna back up. And a lot of shows do the start in a weird in media, rest kind of in the middle weird scene, and then back up and say 48 hours earlier. So we did do that. A lot of shows have done that and we did that. What I like about our twist on it is we do it three times. We back up three different times and re see the events from three different perspectives. I thought that made it special.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, there's also an A storyline, B storyline, C storyline, all happening around that table.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And it's cool because it's like, I guess the Ted Robin parent story is the A story. But it's like even though the Marshall and Lily again, it's like, it's not peripheral. It's like very central to the action. And I mean, it's hilarious too. We'll get into all that. I do have to say when you told me or someone told me, you or Carter, that Michael Gross was going to be playing my father.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radnor]

The kid in me that grew up in Columbus, Ohio.

[Craig Thomas]

Which, by the way, we should explain this, explain this all the way. Because no one, even the youngins that might be listening to this don't even know what we're talking about already when.

[Josh Radnor]

I was growing up. Thursday night on NBC. This is pre Friends, pre Seinfeld.

[Craig Thomas]

Fuck yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Thursday night on NBC was the greatest night of television. Cosby show at 8:00 o', clock, 8:30. Family ties, 9:00'. Clock. Cheers, 9:30. Night court, 10:00', clock, Louisiana law.

[Craig Thomas]

Louisiana law.

[Josh Radnor]

Can I just get a shout out to anyone who remembers this, this mighty lineup on television?

[Craig Thomas]

You wouldn't miss a moment. You wouldn't miss one second of that. That was three hours of TV actually.

[Alec Lev]

And I don't mention this very much, but on my sub stack it's called Dead Father Society. My father passed away when I was 17. I've just written a piece that's all about Thursday nights. It's all about what my dad and I would do. We would go for pizza and some other stuff. And then we would go home and we would watch those four, maybe five shows.

[Josh Radnor]

Wow.

[Alec Lev]

So, yeah, very, very meaningful night for me as well.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, yeah. I can't wait to read that, Alec. Everyone should read that. I mean, it's hard to expl Explain to people what that was. We're in 2025. There's kind of the lack of that shared experience, the lack of the campfire we're all sitting around.

[Josh Radnor]

I think that's the monoculture.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I think that's a huge problem sociologically. We won't get into that right now, but we had that right. And Family Ties was really in the center of that family. I talk about how Cheers was the biggest. Cheers was one of the biggest influences on me as a writer. Part of why I wanted to be a comedy writer. But I don't think I say it often enough that Family Ties is very much up in that conversation. I know. For Carter too, who's also from Ohio, Talk about a show that was hilarious. And it could also be very moving and complicated and really nuanced.

[Josh Radnor]

Do you know why I know what SCUBA stands for? Self Contained Underwater Breathing Apparatus.

[Craig Thomas]

Underwater. Underwater Breathing Apparatus. Mallory has a breakthrough. Studying one night.

[Josh Radnor]

Yes.

[Craig Thomas]

Studying for the concrete student. Absolutely brilliant. And brunt. Josh. So talk about what that meant to you. It was set in literally where you're from.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, it's set in Columbus.

[Craig Thomas]

What did that feel like when you're at that age and you're watching a TV show? Be set there? Like, was that one of those moments that set you on your path?

[Josh Radnor]

Well, yeah, I mean, I watched. It's so funny. I'm not a big TV watcher now, but I was a big TV watcher when I was a kid. I really loved television and I loved sitcoms. I loved Alice. I, you know, I loved Taxi. I loved. I would watch Barney Miller when there was nothing else. You know, like I watched a lot of TV and Family Ties was probably like pound for pound my favorite show. Like just moment to moment delight and.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And I think, you know, it was so perfectly cast. There was just such a light touch around it. It's hard to do a family show that is both moving but not treacly.

[Craig Thomas]

You know, it was a great idea. Just for anyone listening who's a little bit younger may not have seen Family Dice. First of all, go find it and stream it. We don't make any money by plugging that show, but please, it's phenomenal. But the premise is it's these hippie parents Right. That were kind of coming of age in the 60s as these peace love.

[Josh Radnor]

On the front lines of all the marches and protests.

[Alec Lev]

Right.

[Craig Thomas]

Wonderful politics, like the wonderfully humanistic politics. Like, they're just these menschy people and they have a family. They have three kids. And one of them turns out to be Alex P. Keaton, which launched Michael J. Fox into the stratospheric, who was a genius in that role. Genius at such a young age.

[Josh Radnor]

A genius performance.

[Craig Thomas]

And he is this young Republican in a suit. I think young Republican in a suit influenced Barney Stinson. Honestly, Carter and I would talk about that sometimes. I think that is part of the influence. And so it's that idea of parents having a kid and the kid is a little bit of like an alien to them. Right. And there are these two sisters, too, who each have different personality quirks. Like, Mallory's not a great student. Alex is like a double A, like overachiever, but with this, like, serious, like Ronald Reagan, like obsession. It's just a great. It was a show that talked comedically about family dynamics and politics. It's almost hard to imagine right at this moment in 2025 that there could be this show that could just make that okay.

[Josh Radnor]

Beyond the political stuff, it was really an illustration of whatever you are and whatever you think you're handing off to your kids, they're probably going to attack the other way. Like, they're not going to be carbon copies.

[Craig Thomas]

They're their own people.

[Josh Radnor]

They're their own people. And it was so brilliant at that. All of which is to say, this is a long way to say the father on that show was played by Michael Gross, who played Ted's father. And I wrote you this little ditty to sing to you in New York City. We'll be right back. Come to DSW for the shoes, Stay for the fun. Because let's be honest, if shoe shopping isn't fun, are you even doing it right? So go ahead, try something new. Try something different, Good different. Try something that feels like you, you know, the real you. And then definitely brag about it later. Because at dsw, you've got unlimited freedom to play. Find the shoes that get you at prices that get your budget.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

At DSW stores [e-mail] Let us surprise you. Hiring isn't just about finding someone willing to take the job. It's about getting the right person with the right background who can move your business forward and to find candidates who match what you're looking for. Trust indeed. Sponsored jobs. Stop struggling to get your job post, even seen on other sites. Give your job the best chance to be seen with Indeed Sponsored Jobs. They help you stand out and hire quality candidates who can drive the results you need. Sponsored Jobs Boost your post for quality candidates so you can reach the exact people you want faster. Join the 1.6 million companies that sponsor their jobs with Indeed. Spend more time interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. Now with Indeed Sponsored Jobs and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves. @ Indeed.com listen just go to Indeed.com listen right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com listen. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring do it the Right Way with Indeed.

[Josh Radnor]

And now back to the show.

[Craig Thomas]

Now imagine going back to yourself, Josh, time traveling back to past you and saying, that guy's going to play my dad on TV.

[Josh Radnor]

10, 11, 12, 13, however old I was when I'm watching these shows and I love, it's my favorite show. And then I grow up, I become a professional actor. I get on this big show and Alex P. Keaton's father, the guy who played his father, is now playing my father. And I don't think Michael, like, I don't know that I was able to communicate how important Family Ties was to me. You know, he's obviously, he's a guest star on Now My show, which was, was trippy and vertigo inducing, but definitely, but, you know, to me he was just a. And a voice that was emblazoned onto my consciousness in the same way I'm sure I am for other people.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And did you attempt to tell him, did you dork out on him a little bit or. He was so down to earth. He didn't come in with any kind of ego about it. It had been a minute since Family Ties even then. But I was starstruck by him for sure.

[Josh Radnor]

He still had an. He has an easy way about him both off and on screen. He's an actor to me that doesn't push, you know, that's right.

[Craig Thomas]

He underplays it and it plays very real.

[Josh Radnor]

He's underplaying it. He's pretty relaxed. He's, you know, and he, he seems like a, a dad who probably did some things well and some things not so well, you know, like, yeah, he, it was just a delight to I, I remember in the early seasons of How I Met yout Mother, that was the thing for some reason, the fact that Michael Gross from Family Ties was playing my father on television was the strangest thing.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God. Of all of it, I can immune the idea of younger you somehow knowing that someday, like, I just, it's incons. It's mind blowing. If you could have somehow known that now, did you. It is an episode about not communicating in a family. Right. Our episode. I mean. Right. This is an episode where Ted's parents do not know how to talk to him and he does not know how to talk to them. Did that resonate for you in the writers?

[Josh Radnor]

Well, I want to say my parents sometimes listen to this show, so I just want to say I love them. I love them very dearly. I, you know, I don't think I had to dig very deep for, like, parents from Ohio, and you kind of want to take them a little deeper and they're, you know. But, you know, it's. I, I, I think that that's a generational thing. Like, I've talked about this with my, my father. Like, I think my parents and I have different love languages. Like, my, there's not a button that my mom will not sew onto a shirt for me. There's not a shirt she won't iron. There's not a creamer that I don't want that's not in the refrigerator when I get home. You know, my dad, I had this lawsuit on this patio that's gone on for years. It's thankfully, my God, coming to a close. But my dad gave me hundreds of hours of free legal advice and counsel on this thing. And if they see key lime pie on the menu, they'll pick it up and it'll be in the fridge when I get. You know what I mean? Like, there's different ways to love and communicate. I'm really into words of affirmation and deep communication, and sometimes that's been, like, a struggle or a navigation. Like, I always kind of want to lure them into more open communication, so I don't think I had to dig that deep for this part of that, you know?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, well, the writers room certainly didn't. The writers room definitely. Carter's also from Ohio, and, you know, like, I think there's some similarities there.

[Josh Radnor]

There's a kind of Midwestern stoicness that, you know, it's a real thing, but it's in my.

[Craig Thomas]

I'm from Long island, and there's plenty of that in my Irish Catholic root. So I think a lot. The comedy writers in that room all had a lot to draw on. This was not a hard episode to, to to tell from the writers.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, sometimes I think it's not a matter of like, like the kid assumes, oh, they don't really want to talk to me, or they're not interested in my interior life. But the truth is, if you really get honest, you're all just going to break down in a puddle of tears saying, I love you, I want you to be safe. Like under. That's what's underneath it.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And I like, at the end, in the end of this episode, Ted gets finally some honesty out of his parents. And it's a nice moment. But I also like the twist that some of the honesty cast. A few doubts and like, oh, wait, some of these are the dynamics between Ted and Robin in this new relationship, trying to figure it out. And that was kind of a funny extra little twist.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

But they were so great. Christine Rose.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Fantastic, funny.

[Josh Radnor]

She must have done 15 episodes. I mean, she did a lot of episodes.

[Craig Thomas]

She did a bunch. She did, yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

But she was never not hilarious. Like, she was never not, like, kind of perfectly patrician and kind of like she was just fantastic.

[Craig Thomas]

Just changing the subject whenever things got uncomfortable. She underplayed things too, in a really subtle, great way. Like when she had a great joke with Robin where Robin blurts out, I'm not ready. When she says, robin, what's it like being a newscaster? And Robin says, I'm not ready. She's like, okay, well, take your time. Like, she just, like, she sits with that. Like, she's very funny.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, Drawing back on the generational differences among parents and kids, like family ties, the parent. Ted's parents undergo in some ways a second adolescence and he's like the adult.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

In a lot of ways. You know, in this episode and in future episodes with the mother too.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, it's really funny. Like, you see that little glimpse of Ted as a dad, and that's also a thing. Right. Where you start to. You're the adult and you start to see your parents foibles and that they're childlike in their own ways. And that starts to switch over time.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, I was just talking with Jordana about this. There's something really smart, there's a little. There's a time bomb placed inside of Ted and Robin's relationship in this episode. Right. Which is the idea, I think when you're in your 20s, you really have a belief that love will conquer all.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radnor]

Like all you need is love and chemistry and connection. And the truth is a long term relationship. Esther Perel. I don't know if she coined this, but she says there's a difference between a love story and a life story. That's a great line, and I really like that distinction. You know, like, not every love story is going to turn into a life story. And I think that, you know, it's so easy to roll your eyes at the earlier generation's advice and what they've learned along the way, but then you get to be that age and you go, oh, you know, my parents really had a point about that. Or, you know, and Jordana was talking about, you know, this couple that she knew in their twenties who just couldn't have been hotter for each other, more in love. And it's like, it's not like that anymore. Like, finances got in the way and kids, you know, like, there's just certain things that. That, that. That when the bombs went off a little bit, you know, they're still together, by the way, this couple. But I think that there's. This is a really good example of it. And this might sound cynical, but. But you need a touch more than love. You have to be aligned in terms of what you want your future to look like, where your values are, and timing really matters.

[Craig Thomas]

Are you in the same place at the same time?

[Josh Radnor]

Oh, it might be. The most important thing is the timing.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And that's what Ted. And that was the Ted and Robin piece. In this episode, you sense the timing does not align. And there is a certain.

[Josh Radnor]

I do love how this episode really starts with a mystery.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. What's happening?

[Josh Radnor]

All these jagged edges, like, what is going on? And then you rewind and you get the whole thing. It's so smart. This is quite literally Pulp Fiction.

[Craig Thomas]

It's very Pulp Fiction influenced. Our white whale guest is Quentin Tarantino. Quentin, if you're listening, please come do this.

[Josh Radnor]

Please, Quentin, please. We'd love to chat with you.

[Craig Thomas]

He's one of the hugest influences. It's basically hailing YouTubers. Pulp Fiction meets Family Ties. That's the quick log line.

[Josh Radnor]

What a pitch that CBS brought.

[Craig Thomas]

But it really is. It has this feeling of, like, zooming in, zooming in, zooming in, zooming in on a photograph and finding new crucial details, new crucial evidence. But it starts with this giant, wide, chaotic shot of, like, what the fuck is going on here? Why are Marshall nilly at each other's throats? Like I said, my wife is actually confused by it even now. And then rewatched the episode and went, right, we back up and we show how they kind of got to that point. Another thing I love about this episode is one of my favorite things is when we see Barney's neediness and you see the guy under the suit, you see Anakin Skywalker. And when the hell helmet finally comes off, Barney wants to be a better, more beloved partner to Ted than Ted's girlfriend. And that is the funniest fucking drive. There's this little moment between you and Neil, and sometimes you guys would have these little throwaway moments that I loved where Barney is explaining, well, you know, last night I actually left your father early from the bar. Cause I was drinking with your father, but I had to get home early because I had to wake up early to go to mass with your mother. And you just got go. Sure. Just like Ted. Ted, yes. Ending Barney's ridiculousness. Sure. Yeah, that makes sense.

[Josh Radnor]

Sometimes I loved one word sentences just like. That you could throw away, like.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Because those play really well on television.

[Craig Thomas]

Go on. Sure. Yeah, that part. I'm with you. I'm with you. Yeah. To get home to go. To wake up early, to go to church with my mom.

[Josh Radnor]

But it's also like. It's like a fish floating by. And he's like, that fish. I'm not going to grab that.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

That.

[Josh Radnor]

Like, I'm just gonna let that one go. Like, there's other. There's other things that I'm gonna have to deal with.

[Craig Thomas]

Fantastic metaphor.

[Josh Radnor]

I will just let you. You were at mass with my mom this morning.

[Craig Thomas]

There's a lot of fish with Barney. You can't grab every fish with Barney.

[Josh Radnor]

You can't grab everyone.

[Craig Thomas]

Okay, let's just keep going.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. So this episode starts with a mystery. I just want to shout out one of Jason Siegel's line readings that I remember made me laugh, maybe the hardest. Like, what is the top five for me Is this roll is really spicy? When he's just. This roll is really spicy.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. I don't know why he's playing that. He's losing his voice from all of the spice on the roll. It's. His throat is constricting from the spice on the piece of bread.

[Josh Radnor]

But the fact that a brunch breakfast roll would be incredibly spicy just covered in cayenne. So Lily is kind of getting dolled up and tempting him sexually, just to be clear. But he brings out the big guns. Where did Marshall's calves come? Where did that come from? That Lily.

[Craig Thomas]

From total absurdity. I don't know. We just thought, you know what it was? We knew a guy at one point who was like a very. It was a Comedy writer who's very muscular. And it was just very rare for a comedy writer. And when he would get hot in the writer's room from an earlier show we worked on, he would unzip his pants in that way. He would have those zip away pants. And we were just like, that's just very interesting that you have this zip. The legs come off, and the zip away pants become shorts. And where I was like, that's only a really in shape. Very confident guy would be like, you.

[Josh Radnor]

Gotta be proud of your. Your calves and shins. You gotta be proud of the calf shin combo.

[Craig Thomas]

And we're, like, getting into the mindset of, like, who. Who is like, let me just. Let me. Let me break out the big guns. These calves and just the act of unzipping your lower half leg. There was something about that we were all laughing about, and we thought, what if that. For whatever reason, what if that's Lily's kind of fetish to turn on?

[Josh Radnor]

But there's also, like, the longer you're in a relationship, there are certain things about a person, whether it's a personality quirk or a physical attribute that do become, like, weirdly aphrodisiacal. Is that the word?

[Craig Thomas]

Right? I think you just coined it.

[Josh Radnor]

Jordana is obsessed with my earlobes now. A lot of people have commented. I have very Buddha, like, hanging low earlobes. I'm telling you, three times an episode we're watching. She'll go, look at those lobes.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God. That's the best. You found the right woman. Josh Radner. Congratulations. Mazel tone.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, she really. It's her thing. It's Marshall's calves. My loaves are Marshall's calves.

[Craig Thomas]

See? So it is. So we invented this a little bit, but it is a thing. You want to find that person who has an unreasonable obsession with it. By the way, you have very lovely earlobes. I'm not downplaying them at all. But Jordana, that's her thing.

[Josh Radnor]

But you also probably at that point knew Jason and the rest of us enough to know that when Jason unveiled his calves, his punter's legs, you knew that he would. It's like, you didn't have to step in and go, okay, do it like this. Like, you knew Jason.

[Craig Thomas]

He's gonna lean in. He's gonna lean in. That's the greatest. That's the greatest thing about the whole cast of how much a mother. It's like, no one's gonna come and be like, I'm not gonna do that. That's Too ridiculous. Like, yeah, this is fucking stupid. And I will lean in to the. To it 100%.

[Josh Radnor]

It was like, the more ridiculous, the more you were looking forward to it.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah. And it led to the line, take off the rest of your pants from Lily when they're going in the bathroom. Which I think that was just a thing of beauty.

[Josh Radnor]

I do want to give a shout out to Noelle True, who played the waitress who took the photograph was a year ahead of me at nyu.

[Craig Thomas]

Amazing.

[Josh Radnor]

And I was delighted to see her on set that day. Yeah. So when Barney enters his first entrance, he walks in, and I notice that Neil. It looks like Barney is expecting applause. And it led to a very meta question I have. Was Barney the only character who knew he was in a sitcom?

[Craig Thomas]

Absolutely. I think Barney knows he's in a sitcom. Absolutely.

[Josh Radnor]

Everyone else doesn't know.

[Craig Thomas]

Like, all of those philosophical debates of, are we in a simulation? Barney was convinced we were in a sitcom and he was in the.

[Josh Radnor]

Cause he walked in, you can see it. He's expecting entrance applause. And it's.

[Craig Thomas]

He looks at the fourth wal. He looks at the fourth wall. He looks where the audience would be.

[Josh Radnor]

He's like, I'm a beloved character on a sitcom, and I'm making my entrance, and people should be cheering. Whereas I. Ted thought he was in an independent film. I always said Ted was an indie film character who was dropped into a sitcom, but he still thought he was in an indie film. He was, like, gunning for Sundance. Ted.

[Craig Thomas]

Absolutely. And that's why. That's why it worked. That's why their weird chemistry worked. Because that is kind of. Neil's a little bit more of that. And you're a little bit more of that, too. Like, Neil. Neil's a showman. And you're like, I'm gonna go write and direct indie films, and Neil's gonna go do a musical on Broadway. You know what I mean? It's like, that's. It worked. I think Barney knows he's in a show.

[Josh Radnor]

He knows he's in a show.

[Craig Thomas]

Neil was playing it that way, in a genius, meta way. I think he really was.

[Josh Radnor]

It really made me laugh. Cause I was like, he might have even said, like, I'm gonna hold for entrance applause.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I think he did. I think he was like, I'm gonna do that bit. And I mean, going back to those 80s shows, there would be applause breaks for those characters, and the actors would have to hold.

[Josh Radnor]

When Lenny and Squigg, they got applause.

[Craig Thomas]

They'd wait to talk in the scene and there's no reason in real life why you would wait to talk. But they were waiting.

[Josh Radnor]

I love when Barney said, there's a story behind that brooch. And I'm gonna hear it.

[Craig Thomas]

I'm gonna hear it. Steven Lloyd, as a writer, we talk about just. Each writer has their quirks. That just feels like a very Steven Lloyd line. He just has. He's just very, very smart, funny writer, but also trends a little dark. Like, at times in the best possible. He's the sweetest guy in the world, but he has a hilariously dark sense of humor.

[Josh Radnor]

Did Steven Lloyd write the One with the Murder Room?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. I mean, I forget if it was his pitch. The Murder Room pitch, where I forget at the moment who wrote that specific script. When you read a Steven Lloyd's script, there's always at least one or two very troubling backstory jokes. Like Robin's relative in the bell tower who had an.

[Josh Radnor]

That's the darkest joke in the episode.

[Craig Thomas]

That's one of the darkest jokes in the series. And there's at least one or two others in here where you're like. There's a very convoluted, dark backstory related to family. Steven Lloyd loves. Like, Steven Lloyd, since How Met yout Mother has written a really fun, dark, like, horror novel that people should go check out called Friend of the Devil. And he just. He's hilariously funny, and he has this ability to go dark that is very, very Gothic and very. It's always perfectly worded. It always feels something out of, like, a very dark play. Like a Eugene o', Neill, Arthur Miller. Like, there's somebody. There's always, like a.

[Josh Radnor]

It's very, like, skeletons in the closet, maybe.

[Craig Thomas]

Literally skeletons in the closet. Yeah, it's very. It's very funny.

[Josh Radnor]

Do you know what made me laugh? You remember how in. Drumroll, please. We were like, oh, I guess Ted plays piano, right? And now it's like, I guess Barney also is excellent at the piano.

[Craig Thomas]

Piano player. I like the moment that a scene we call Comedy Writer speak a blow, obviously, in the last joke of each little scene. It's not that every joke ends. Every scene ends that way, but going out on a joke, one of the jokes is just Barney going, ooh, a piano. And that's only a joke because we saw him playing amazing piano in one of the earlier flashbacks. So it made me laugh. Just the idea of, like, oh, that was the moment when he decided to go show that he's also an amazing piano player.

[Josh Radnor]

I really liked also when Barney was with that the way Neil did the reading. I'm really not planning these things. They just keep happening. Whatever that was. Did you know that?

[Craig Thomas]

Yes. That little giggly, kind of, like, goat laugh that he does.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. There's so much about Neil's performance of Barney that is deeply controlled and premeditated in a very theatrical and pleasing way. But there's also these moments where he gets delighted by himself as a person and as a scheming kind of whatever he's doing.

[Craig Thomas]

He's the star of his own sitcom in his own mind.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. And it's funny how he's sometimes the funniest when it's not about women, when it's about status, when it's about becoming Ted's best friend. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

This is status. Right. This is. Cause often he's competing with Marshall to be Ted's best friend. And always losing. Barney is the Washington Generals against the Globetrotters of Marshall in that friendship competition. And here it's. I really enjoy that he's competing with Robin. Robin's like, what is this? What's happening here? Why do you need to be this important to Ted's parents? But he just. Again. And it makes Ted important. I think it does make Ted the star of the show, because Barney just wants to be important to Ted, and that extends to his parents. I would say it's one of Barney's deepest series drives. From pilot on. I just want to know I'm important to Ted.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's also. It's in a weird way, it's him as, like, a brutal capitalist. Like, he doesn't believe that everyone can be a winner.

[Craig Thomas]

Right.

[Josh Radnor]

Like, he doesn't believe, like, all rising tide lifts all boats. Like, he doesn't believe.

[Craig Thomas]

Not at all.

[Josh Radnor]

He's like, there's gonna be someone left at the end, triumphant, standing atop these corpses, atop this funeral pyre, and it's gonna be me, you know?

[Craig Thomas]

Yes, absolutely.

[Josh Radnor]

And hopefully Ted will be with me.

[Craig Thomas]

And Ram is out of. She's like, are you trying to steal Ted from me? Like, what's happening here?

[Josh Radnor]

There's a lot. There's a bunch of episodes where he is, like, he's really trying to steal. He's really trying to, like, win Ted from whatever woman he's with.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, he is. He just wants to be important to Ted.

[Josh Radnor]

And this old man. He must admit he fell in love with you.

[Craig Thomas]

New York City and now commercials.

[Josh Radnor]

Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're.

[Alec Lev]

Not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows homes so you don't have to don't know the difference between matte paint, finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is with thumbtack.

[Josh Radnor]

You don't have to be a home.

[Alec Lev]

Pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app download today.

[Craig Thomas]

You open the fridge, there's nothing there.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

So what's it gonna be?

[Craig Thomas]

Greasy pizza?

[Josh Radnor]

Sad Drive Thru Burgers? Dish by Blue Apron is for nights like that.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

These are the pre made meals of your dreams. At least 2020 grams of protein. No artificial flavors or colors.

[Craig Thomas]

No chopping, no cleanup, no guilt.

[Josh Radnor]

Keep the flavor.

[Cobie Smulders]

Ditch the subscription.

[Josh Radnor]

Get 20% off your first two orders with code APRON20. Terms and conditions apply. Visit blueapron.com terms for more.

[Craig Thomas]

End of commercials Back to show Is.

[Josh Radnor]

This the debut of 83% as the the faux statistic?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I think so. I think it. Ye. Yeah. Yeah, I think it is. There may have been one other mention of it now that I think of it, but I think it's a debut of we decided to call it out and then commit to it for the next seven, eight years.

[Josh Radnor]

There you go. Yeah, it is the perfect were you on Letterman's writing staff when they did top 10 numbers one through 10?

[Craig Thomas]

No, that was early NBC version of the show. Genius like Medalist. We wouldn't have done that on the CBS show that was supposed to be reaching a bigger audience. This was like the mad science.

[Josh Radnor]

This was when it was still like when it was like Conan, like the weirdo top 10 numbers between 1 through 10. And also they just read them like confidently, like without any explanation.

[Craig Thomas]

I'm sure I played to dead silence to a confused and disappointed audience.

[Josh Radnor]

Top 10 list ever.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

But 83% feels to me like for whatever reason, if you were going to have a guy who just threw out bullshit statistics all the time, 83% is the perfect number. Like, yeah, it's 82% is wrong and 84% is wrong and I can't explain why.

[Craig Thomas]

What is that? I know. I'm sure we talked about it at length and arrived at 83 as it's.

[Josh Radnor]

Like enough of like an almost B. It's like a BB minus it's like enough of what he's trying to prove.

[Craig Thomas]

That it's statistically probable. Any lower it wouldn't be convincing. And any higher it's unrealistic.

[Josh Radnor]

And he knows that intuitively.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, he feels that he has to hit that number. It's the universal number. It's Fitzpi. It's whatever. The.

[Josh Radnor]

Ted was wearing a shirt that I wanted to say. What were we doing with that shirt?

[Craig Thomas]

There was some weird shirts. I called it out. So I was watching it with my wife and I said, what's going on with Ted's shirt right there? What's happening? Why is Ted. It's a crazy.

[Cobie Smulders]

Right?

[Craig Thomas]

It had these crazy swirly designs, like light colored but with like this red dragon like kind of design.

[Josh Radnor]

Was it almost. It almost looked like suede or like kind of cowboyish? Cowboyish, yes. And also for some reason, and I don't know what me and the costume designer at the time were deciding, but like, like it was either. Sometimes I'd wear the shirts open and some. But I don't understand why I didn't button them more. There was always. There were always like three or four buttons done.

[Craig Thomas]

All of the buttons open. All of, like a lot. Sometimes too.

[Josh Radnor]

All the buttons open. I can, I can make a sale for.

[Craig Thomas]

Okay, but you only want. Yeah. When it's some of them, it's weird.

[Josh Radnor]

When it's some of them. There was just such a weird thing. That's all.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. All I will say is this. I will say this. I called out that shirt. And my wife watching with me, she goes, I like that shirt. And I was going to go on a whole tirade against the shirt. And then she was like, no, I kind of like it. So I don't know, maybe it works for somebody.

[Alec Lev]

By the way, the Internet pointed out many times that Ted and the color. I'm colorblind. I trust the Internet that the color of Ted and Robin shirts are the same as the color of Ted's parents shirts.

[Craig Thomas]

I bet that was intentional. Although I forgot whether it certainly was intentional for me. But from costume department, it's hard to say. That shirt was like, ah, well, classic. It was just a period, a function of being. 2006. Was that a thing in 2006? I've seen a few shirts that I'm like, what error? I don't know what was happening, but.

[Josh Radnor]

I don't think it was. It wasn't the brunch shirt. It was another shirt. It was, it was another one.

[Craig Thomas]

It was when they step out in the hall with his dad and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was. Yeah. And when you texted me that, I was like, I know exactly what shirt Josh is talking about.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, you know what's funny? When they put you in these clothes you like, sometimes they'll be like, no, no, no, it looks great. You're like, really? But you Trust them, you know, And I. You know, I.

[Craig Thomas]

How often did you veto? How often did you veto?

[Josh Radnor]

You can veto, but sometimes you'll have, like a quick change and they'll be like, oh, this is just like a 30 second pop. Right. I think I got more. As the show went on, I got a little more. I would. I exercised my veto power more.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And I would say, I don't feel good in this or this. You know, but sometimes you just look back and some of those, like, cowboy shirts and some of those things, you're like, wow, there was a lot of.

[Craig Thomas]

Cowboy shit going on. Maybe. Was that a thing in 2006? More than I thought.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

That was a little western thing.

[Josh Radnor]

I don't know.

[Craig Thomas]

But why Ted? Why is Ted wearing that? I don't. It was odd in retrospect. Even in the moment, I was like, I don't know.

[Josh Radnor]

I think Jason was a little more like, don't put me in stuff that I feel weird in. Like, I think I was a little more like, okay, you can. I gu. But who knows, right?

[Craig Thomas]

And I'm sure he felt great about the zip away pants for the Cavs. He'd do it for comedy. He would do it for. God bless me. He'd do it for comedic purposes. Were there things that you liked Ted in? Were there things where you would get in the wardrobe and you'd go, this is Ted Mosby? I feel like this is the look. Clearly, this wasn't it.

[Josh Radnor]

A lot of it was because you're in costume all day, essentially, and a.

[Craig Thomas]

Lot of them on this show.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. But you start actually wanting them more to dress like you. Like you.

[Cobie Smulders]

You.

[Craig Thomas]

Right.

[Josh Radnor]

Like, I do wear a lot of plaid shirts. I do wear a lot of T shirts. I do wear jeans. I do wear whatever. I do wear justice khakis. No foot forward. But I. I think you.

[Craig Thomas]

You.

[Josh Radnor]

You start just wanting to be comfortable.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Because it's all day long for hours and hours and hours, and you're living on that set.

[Josh Radnor]

I have certain, like, golds and yellows kind of make my skin look weird. So we always avoid it. We mostly avoided those, you know, like, just things that you.

[Craig Thomas]

You.

[Josh Radnor]

You kind of know what your palette is, I guess. But mostly you end up. It's almost like you're going shopping. Like, you. You have a wardrobe fitting. Right. And you go in there and they got a huge rack of clothes, and you just burn through a lot of clothes and you. Yes. No. They just. Yes. Know it real quick.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And then sometimes they. I don't I remember. They didn't even. Sometimes there'd be like, okay, you're only in one. That you're in this shirt the whole episode. So let's find one you really feel comfortable in.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

You know?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

But largely, you would. You would. Whatever the yes was. You know, you're like a preschooler. Like, you go into your dressing room in the morning, your outfits laid out for you.

[Craig Thomas]

You know, it is really weird.

[Josh Radnor]

It's infantilizing, to be honest.

[Craig Thomas]

There's an infantilizing quality. Right. To begin. Okay, now wear this.

[Josh Radnor]

Someone follows you to go to the bathroom to make sure you come back. They bring you your lunch.

[Craig Thomas]

And there's people on headsets going, he's almost done. He's almost done. I think this one's a giant. This is a giant dump, I think. So we gotta give this extra time. I'm listening at the door. It's really weir.

[Josh Radnor]

It is really strange. But, yeah, the bell tower joke. I did write that down. Uncle has perfect vision. Such a dark joke.

[Craig Thomas]

It's a very dark but very smart joke.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. Christine Rose's react. Her fake reactions to the dad making out with the waitress was really funny.

[Craig Thomas]

Do that. I liked. I liked that they didn't have a bitter divorce. I liked that. I thought that was nice to see a couple that was like they were through whatever the hard part was and they were rooting for each other. Ted's dad was like, he's a nice guy. I love that. It was Ted's orthodontist or dentist. You remember him? He did your braces. And I love that it wasn't the cliche, they fucking hate each other reveal. The reveal was, they're okay. They've processed it and they're okay.

[Josh Radnor]

This was the best thing for both of them.

[Craig Thomas]

They just didn't bother to tell their children because it didn't feel Christmassy.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, there was an episode of Curb youb Enthusiasm where Larry's mom died and they didn't tell him because they didn't want to bother him.

[Craig Thomas]

I only heard about this one recently. I missed this one.

[Josh Radnor]

So we did this before that, I think. I'm not saying Larry David ripped this off, but.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, no, we definitely. I don't think Larry David watched the show. But that ending bit, that tag where Ted slowly realizes his grandmother's dead is.

[Josh Radnor]

No longer with us.

[Craig Thomas]

You played that. Really? That was a great slow burn. That was probably the biggest laugh. Watching it with my wife Rebecca. That was her biggest laugh. And another, by the way, I said, I Think there's another dark family related death joke. And this is it. This is another Stephen Lloyd joke. The dead grandma. That's a very Steven Lloyd joke. I say that with love and respect.

[Josh Radnor]

Stephen Lloyd couldn't have too many dead grandparents in the script. It was just.

[Craig Thomas]

There's a body count in a Steven Lloyd episode. It's like Quentin Tarantino again.

[Josh Radnor]

I liked when Barney said, oh, he mentioned he was divorced last night. I totally spaced.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes. I love that throw again. Very well. Thrown away away. So much of the best comedy is thrown away. We were saying that about Michael Gross. That's how he was on Family Ties. He was. He played this like that. And that's a great throwaway joke. That's if there's one great. If there's one lesson here today, just throw the jokes away. Don't hit him too hard. Even. Even Ted going, sure. Like your little throwaway sure was my favorite joke in the whole.

[Josh Radnor]

I kind of think of those jokes a little bit like. Like a moth lands on your shoulder and you just go, yeah, don't freak out. You just flick it away. You know, you just.

[Craig Thomas]

It's just a little carry that'll get it done.

[Josh Radnor]

I did find myself the scene outside with the four of them, Ted's parents and Robin and Ted. I thought it was so moving that just when I have kids and I tell them the story of how I met their mother, I'm gonna tell them the whole damn story.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Like he commits to. He's like, I don't like these. I don't like these half details. I don't like. I want to know these people more. I want to know where I came from. I want to know my history. And in some ways he, you know, he overcorrects. Like he tells them too much. It could be argued. But there's something, you know, I think every generation is trying to remedy something that they were. That they felt like they didn't get.

[Craig Thomas]

I want to explain myself to my kids because my parents didn't explain themselves to me.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. What was it? Oh, it's a great story. We met at a bar.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And then as fellow visits an Irish bar, which is another Ted Robin parallel of how they met.

[Josh Radnor]

Oh yeah. There's so many sweet, smart, meta kind of in jokes in this thing, Craig. It's really is layered. I know the Internet folks tend to get a little conspiratorial, but they're like that because there is so much woven in. It's densely packed with stuff.

[Craig Thomas]

It's Barney entering and thinking he's getting applause from what is clearly a wall if we're to believe the reality of the apartment. And then Ted is saying, I'm going to tell this show. This show you're seeing. I'm going to tell it. It's 2006 now. I'm going to tell my kids in 2030 what's happening as. As we're all watching this story. I loved. That was my favorite moment of the whole episode. Because that was the show explaining itself as a show which is a story to kids. And parents all want their kids to understand them. And there's just something. There's a lot of layers there. And I think it's very human. We all tell stories. We all need to make sense of it in a story.

[Josh Radnor]

And then you think, why is he taking this much time to tell in such granular detail this story? And it's like, well. Cause he has this wound.

[Craig Thomas]

He didn't get it.

[Josh Radnor]

He didn't get it. He didn't get the story. He wants the story, so he has to create it for himself.

[Craig Thomas]

He's being the parent he didn't have. We see them make a little progress in this episode. Ted learns about his parents in a way he didn't know before. But it's only a little progress. You don't know if it might revert the next week. In fact, the tag reverts them back to, I'm gonna get some juice instead of telling you your grandmother died. But Ted calls his shot like Babe Ruth. I'm gonna tell this story one day. And by God, he does. And here we are.

[Josh Radnor]

You know How I Met yout Mother, always. Even in, like, this is a big capital C comedy episode. Like, this is a funny episode. There's a lot of action, broken plates, like, it's fars. But I think in almost every episode, you could probably map this. There's always a moment that's just a little more wistful or a little more of like an exhale.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, and that for me, this moment was that in this episode.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. We did not feel like we were great farce writers or great. Like, here's one big, long, 12 minute funny scene. It's gonna be slamming doors. This is our version of that. Our version of slamming doors and breaking plates is we will jump around back and forth to the beginning and the end of the story three times and chop it up. But this is our farce. This is the way we. On How I Met yout Mother, tell a farce episode and tell a slamming doors episode. And I loved that about it because it has that energy of a zany farce episode. But it is very Pulp Fiction along the way. And I think I really like that. I think early in season two, we thought we have to come out with some really big comedy episodes. We need energy, we need to grab an audience. But I don't think we sacrificed in this one at least what made the show rhythmically interesting and eccentric. And I like that. So this is a fun one to rewatch.

[Josh Radnor]

No, it's a really fun one. I like this episode.

[Craig Thomas]

Steven Lloyd. Props. Well done, well written. And yeah, this one holds up a lot of the others. I don't know.

[Josh Radnor]

We have been informed by our wonderful producer, Alec Lev that we got a great question in this week that we'd like to spend a couple minutes answering. But also, if you want to write a question to us, if you want to share a tale or a story or anything about what How I Met yout Mother means to you, when you discovered the show, how many times you watched it, why you keep watching it over and over and over again, please go to how we made your mother.com, whimyim.com, go to contact and should be pretty self explanatory, but we'd love to hear from you, whether it's an audio note or a written note. And Alec, what was this question?

[Alec Lev]

This is from our very good friend of the show, Swirly Memes again for the win with their question. Swarli says in this episode, Ted finds out that his parents divorced after realizing how different they were. One of those differences being that his dad always wanted kids while his mom never did. Ironically, Ted is about to have to make a similar choice with Robin, who also doesn't want children. Even though Ted didn't really know this about his parents, he still seems to be repeating the same pattern. Do you think that we sometimes carry these kinds of generational patterns with us? Almost like unconscious curses that get passed down, whether through family dynamics or even something deeper like our DNA.

[Josh Radnor]

Damn swirly memes.

[Craig Thomas]

It's a smart question. It's a disturbing and smart question.

[Josh Radnor]

And in some ways I'm like, I don't know if we are credentialed to answer that. Like, I think it's a.

[Craig Thomas]

Can you get Jordana?

[Josh Radnor]

It's a somewhat. I mean, it's definitely a psychological question, but it's somewhat metaphysical too. I mean, the. It reminded me there's a quote. A man often meets his destiny on the road he took to avoid it.

[Craig Thomas]

Right.

[Josh Radnor]

You Know, there's something about, like, yeah, Ted is trying to not be these people.

[Craig Thomas]

Right.

[Josh Radnor]

But he almost is. He's magnetized to this woman that actually is. Does rhyme with his parents, even up to meeting in an Irish bar.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, there, there's something, it's, you know, Harville Hendrix's work on. I think it's Harvel Hendrix on the imago, which is like, the imago is how you learn love in your family of origin. And we're often, we often are magnetized to people that mirror back or have some overlap with that kind of love we experienced with our primary caregivers. But the hope is that your marriage becomes a place where you quote, unquote, like, complete your childhood, where your partner does a couple things a little bit better than your primary caregivers did. Did, but still has some of the same resonances or frequencies. So you can, you can revisit and, and actually grow through, you know, with another conscious adult. But that's why relationships, you know, start off in this swirl of, of chemistry and intensity and connection. And then you, there's a lot of pain that gets provoked in a good, even a good relationship.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, because you're going to hit some of these landmines. But that's your trigger. You're like, oh, okay. If, you know, you're conscious enough, you've learned enough about this stuff, you realize, oh, that's where the real work of relationship. That's where the, the intimacy develops when you say, like, oh, I'm. I'm really hurting right now, or that that's where you gotta, you gotta be comfortable at, you know, talking through things, otherwise you'll act out in all sorts of strange ways.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And that resonates forward to when you have kids of your own, too. And you're going, what patterns am I trying to break? What, what works? What did I like that my parents did? What parent? What am I definitely not going to do?

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

And then sometimes you catch yourself doing shit you didn't want to do. And you're in the middle of saying it, you're like, I can't believe I'm being this cliche right now. This was the thing I didn't want to do. And it's just, it's like a tug of war. It really is like this very delicate dance. Because of course, there are things you want to emulate, and of course there are things you want to dodge. And some of it, the DNA part of Sparley Meme's question is really interesting because you're like, can you dodge the fate of your own DNA? Can you change yourself on that kind of molecular level? I like to believe you can, but it's really, really hard. It takes a lot of really conscious.

[Josh Radnor]

Work of it is just like, even dumb stuff. Like, my friend Michael told me that when he was a kid, him and his brothers, the thing about their father that drove them crazy was he could not sit down on the couch or get out of the couch without going like, like grunting, like everything. It was like, they're like, you don't have to make a sound. He said literally the day he turned 40. Oh, yeah, he suddenly, I've also my sneeze. This. My dad's not as allergic as me. My sneezes have gotten so middle aged, like, thunderous.

[Craig Thomas]

I'm like, what is going?

[Josh Radnor]

Like, why can't I sneeze with some, like, modesty, like the apartment.

[Craig Thomas]

Good. Can't there be a liberation in that?

[Josh Radnor]

I'm just going to, I mean, look, it feels great. I'm not going to lie. I'm having a great time over.

[Craig Thomas]

I've never felt more alive than those sneezes. That's what I'm saying, though. Maybe there's a certain. There's a certain it too.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

And you're not, you're not really harming anyone with those sneezes. I guess maybe Jordana could disagree.

[Josh Radnor]

But do you, do you have moments, Craig, where you feel like, oh, my dad has taken over my body, like I feel. Yeah. Or you catch yourself in a light or a picture and you're like, oh, there he is.

[Craig Thomas]

I would see my dad biting his nails in his, like 40s and 50s, and they'd be like, I'm not gonna be biting my fucking nails. And I'm like 50 years old. Cut to me, like, watching our show for this podcast, like, what the fuck are you doing? And it's like, shit, I'm still doing that. Yeah, yeah, I catch myself. And old guy stuff. Oh, definitely old guy stuff. Sounds, sensations.

[Josh Radnor]

It strikes me that in some ways the work of forgiving your parents becomes more urgent the older you get because there's so much inside of you and there's such a ticking time bomb about to go off of them in you that if you don't forgive them, it can turn into self loathing. You know, you can turn into like, oh, I don't like this. But otherwise, you know, or you can go, they're wonderful. They're, you know, they're in me and it's good. It's okay. And they're.

[Craig Thomas]

Rebecca wishes she could apologize to her mom because Rebecca would. Rebecca's mom would sort of forget a word at the end of a sentence. Just take a little pause to get there. And now Rebecca's doing that. And Rebecca would always be the corrector when she's a teenager. Mom, this is the word you're saying. And now our daughter Celia, who's nine, sometimes jumps in and does that to Rebecca. And Rebecca said to me one night, she. She's like, I wish my mom were still alive so I could apologize. Because now that it's happening to me, it feels so shitty. And you're like, just give me another second. I'm gonna get to this word. I swear to God, I'm gonna get there. Yeah, it's the circle. It's the circle.

[Josh Radnor]

Gam. Aging is tricky. I mean, we have to have compassion for ourselves and others as we go through it. It's just. Yeah, yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

It's a missing piece. And I think that the thing of trying to dodge it or make it look some other way than it is, I think the acceptance piece of it and ourselves and others is like a really, really kind of a missing piece of like, 21st century social media life that we're all living. We're all going to get old. We're all going to find those things. We're all going to experience those humbling things. It just happens.

[Josh Radnor]

Have you ever come across Oldster magazine on substack or.

[Craig Thomas]

No, no.

[Josh Radnor]

It's Sari Bottom, I think her name is, who runs it, and there's like an Oldster questionnaire, and it's really just for people. I mean, she's interviewed people from in their 20s all the way up to their 90s. But. But it's a questionnaire about, like, what's been the most delightful thing about aging? What has surprised you the most? What. What's been the biggest bummer? Like, are you who you thought you'd be when you were a kid or are you vastly different? Like, they're really probing, beautiful, interesting questions. And I find myself turning to it quite a bit whenever it pops up. Like, I'm gonna look at that. Yeah. Oldster magazine, it's called.

[Craig Thomas]

That's great. And I would say, let those sneezes fly, man. Accept those gigantic sneezes. Just fucking do it. Because the giving less part is the best part of.

[Josh Radnor]

I'm going to wake Jordana up with a startle and I'm going to go. Craig told. Craig told me.

[Craig Thomas]

I'm allowed to do this Craig says it's okay. Jordana's going to yell at me.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

All right. We have a letter, too, Alec.

[Alec Lev]

We do.

[Josh Radnor]

We have a great letter. All right. Hello, Josh, Craig and Alec. Alec. They don't always shout you out, so I'm glad.

[Alec Lev]

And spelled correctly with a K. This is a real.

[Josh Radnor]

This is a real one right here.

[Craig Thomas]

You've made it. You've arrived.

[Josh Radnor]

My name is Jonathan, and this show means so much to me that I can't. I can't put it into words. I was first introduced to him back in 2010. My family and I had moved back to Mexico from the US I was 12 years old starting junior high. I was 12 years old, starting junior high and adjusting to school in a different country. It was during English class when the professor, who had also grown up in the US Put on the first episode of his favorite show called How I Met yout Mother.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, well.

[Josh Radnor]

Wow. I immediately was hooked. And the more I watched, the more my love grew for the sitcom. Fast forward to 15 years and the show is still very much relatable, probably even more now than it was before. I see myself relating a lot to Ted, mostly now that I'm the same age as he was when the show first started, wanting to get married and desperately trying to find the so called one, which, frankly, seems like an impossible task these days. I also relate a lot to Rob and having gotten my bachelor's degree in journalism a couple years ago and still trying to find a way of getting my career started, but unfortunately with not much luck on my side with every episode. Whether it made me laugh to forget just a little bit of what was going on in life or whether it made me sad and showed me that others are going through the same struggles as I do, it provided me with hope. Hope that one day, maybe just one day, things will turn out better. The hope that I get from watching the show is also the hope I get from listening to this podcast. From how Josh, after doing many pilots with shows that didn't get picked up or got canceled later on, was finally able to be on a show that not only got picked up, but also became one of the best sitcoms of all time. From how everything aligned for Craig and Carter and that Starbucks in order to bring this show to life and keep it going for nine seasons. And so many countless stories like Courtney's, Kobe's, Ashley's and many others that are shared on the podcast that let me know that God's timing is perfect and one day I'll get my big Brick break. With that said, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for creating something that truly became the comfort show I needed at any point in my life and shows me that no matter what I may be going through, there's always a reason for me to keep going. You guys are the best. Thanks again. Your friend from Utah, Jonathan.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, that's lovely.

[Josh Radnor]

There's a twist ending. He was in Utah.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, it was. It was. We. We moved that. That had a journey that. The story.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. You know, I love that your teacher showed you the pilot.

[Craig Thomas]

Mind blowing.

[Josh Radnor]

I wonder what. I wonder in what context. But I remember I had this English teacher my freshman year of high school named Mrs. Lamuth, and I had her also my senior year for creative writing. Great teacher. She passed away a couple years ago, and before she died, she dropped off all my creative writing that I did for her as a senior. She had saved.

[Craig Thomas]

Wow.

[Josh Radnor]

She just left it as an envelope on our. My mom said Mrs. Lamuth dropped this. So I got to see all this writing I had done as a senior in high school. But she. I remember one day she brought a turntable in and she played Carole King's Tapestry. The song Tapestry.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And she gave us the lyrics, and we. We analyzed it like poetry. She just wanted us to take it through. And from that moment on, like, I've been a huge Carole King fan. That album is masterful.

[Craig Thomas]

A masterpiece. A masterwork. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

But that. That song in particular is so lyrically dense and rich and so beautiful, and it really. Now that I. I even have a deeper appreciation for it. But it really taught me how songs could be poetry and artful, and it was such a great lesson. But I'm just struck by the power that teachers have to introduce students to art and things they love, and it can affect them for the rest of their lives.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, it's phenomenal. It's such an honor when we hear how much Mother in a Classroom is just so mind blowing and so cool and. Yeah, thank you, Jonathan, for that story. It's really cool.

[Josh Radnor]

And also just, you know, that it might not look like it in the moment, but. But things might be organizing themselves on your behalf. I think I've mentioned this. I think it's either a Larry McMurtry or Cormac McCarthy line. You never know what worse luck your bad luck is saving you from.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, that's a great line.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, it looks. It looks like. It looks like things are, you know, but it's all coalescing and it's. I think. I think How I Met yout Mother says, look, it's a it's a friendly universe and it's on your side. And just trust I am guilty, please acquit me. All sins are forgiven in New York City.

[Alec Lev]

How We Made youe Mother is hosted and executive produced by Josh Radner and Craig Thomas and is presented and distributed by the Office Ladies Network and Odyssey. This episode is also executive produced by Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey. The show is produced and edited by me, Alec Lev and our co producer is Doug Matica. Our audio producer and mixer is Alex Reeves at Point of Blue Studios. Our digital content producer, AKA Gen Z Master is Emily Blumberg. Artwork by John Morrow. Please follow rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or your podcast player of choice. It really does help the show. Our theme song is New York City by our own Josh Radner with additional music by Craig Thomas and Andrew Majewski. Special thanks to Lola Kennedy and Elliot Connors. Visit how we madeyourmother.com to learn more and click on the contact page to send us an email or a voice message. Your stories and questions are an important part of the show. Subscribe to Josh Radner's Muse Letters on Subject stack and check out his music and everything [e-mail] order Craig Thomas's debut novel, that's Not How It Happened, wherever books are sold and check out his other published writings at craig thomas writer.com and you can subscribe to My own Dead Fathers Society, also on Substack to learn more about how you make a difference. This show's ongoing campaign to raise money for congenital Genital Pediatric heart disease research. Check out the Make a Difference tab at the top of our website. People will in fact dance.

[Josh Radnor]

The real question it just hit me. Am I in love with you or just New York City?

[Craig Thomas]

Derry Here is Here is the promise at the very beginning of this if you remember back to the beginning of this podcast. Okay, here are some clips exclusive to you the How We Made youe Mother fans and the How I Met yout Mother fans. Never before heard audiobook clips from my debut novel, that's Not How It Happened of Josh Radner and Cobie Smulders as two of the four characters of the book. And here's a little taste of what they do in the audiobook. The book comes out this podcast episode is dropping the week of my publication date of the book, which is November 4th Tuesday, and I'm very, very excited for both the book and the audiobook. Also, you should know that you're Going to hear Josh and Coby reading in character as two of the four characters in this book. So you'll hear Kobi introduce herself as the character of Paige, who is married to the character of Rob, who is voiced by Josh Radner. Please enjoy, Paige.

[Cobie Smulders]

Rob was now officially off on script, and I was just off. Sorry. When I get stressed, I start speaking like the narration on Sex in the City. And so began the surreal, unholy process of my husband adapting my book, my life, into a screenplay. Rob would grab a coffee, say, have a good day, then walk down the hall to his office and close the door. I swear I could hear the sound of knives being sharpened in there. What was happening to my poor little book behind that door? What was being scrapped? At lunch, I'd see Rob in the kitchen and expect him to say something about how it was going. Nope. He has a thing about not discussing works in progress, which is fine when it's not my book. It's like a surgeon stepping out of the OR and not telling you if your loved one survived the surgery. After lunch, Rob would head back into his office. Four hours, afraid to stop lest he lose the role he was on. I swear, the man did not get up to pee when he rose. I often wondered if he kept a creepy Mason jar under his desk, but I was too scared to check. To be fair, if some other screenwriter, a stranger, had been hired instead of Rob, I would have long since been cut out of the process entirely. I kept reminding myself of this like a mantra. It's better that it's Rob. But was it? There were times, staring down the hall at Rob's closed office door, hearing the clickety clack of his keyboard. Was that the delete key? Was he deleting when I wished it was literally anyone in the world but him. Some writer far away. Australia, Thailand, the North fucking Pole. Anywhere but down that long echoing hallway. Even worse, news of the nascent film project had broken and now everyone was writing me. Congrats. Are you psyched? Some days I was sure I could hear my book screaming behind that door. Not enough anesthesia had been administered before surgery and she'd woken up, up screaming mid incision. I became Hyper aware that 300 pages of book could not possibly fit into 110 pages of screenplay. So which limbs were being amputated? I could see my book's blood leaking out from under Rob's office door. The flesh of my life story dropping to the indifferent floor of the abattoir. The guiltless butcher, deaf to its cries for mercy. And then finally, the stone cold silence of death.

[Josh Radnor]

Rob man, it felt so great to be writing again, having a deadline, a bullseye to hit a raison d'. Etre. Paige was happy too, I could tell. Interested in my progress. Very supportive. She was relieved this had stayed in the family rather than being outsourced to some hack she'd never met. That would have been a nightmare. Plus, if this movie came out great, with my name in the credits, career back on track. The script was flowing too. It was writing itself. This is what I always tell younger writers, what I was trying to teach my college students. Absurdly, I still had months left of that charade. Writing doesn't have to be hard. If you're writing a script you believe in, with a clear story and well defined characters, it should feel easy. It should flow. Right now, I was in that pocket. And as a writer, that's about as close to heaven as it gets.

[Cobie Smulders]

Paige those weeks were a living hell. My stomach hurt nonstop.

[Craig Thomas]

Okay, that was a little taste of the book. The audiobook, I should say. There are two other characters whose voices you also hear in the story. And I'm so excited about this book. It comes out November 4th from HarperCollins, and the book and the audiobook are all available that day. It means the world to me. It's my favorite thing I've written, except for himyum or in addition to Himyum. And yeah, I would love it if hymn fans and Whimyum fans would give it a read and or listen.