How We Met Ol' Swarley | S2E7 "Swarley"

Summary

Podcast Summary: How We Made Your Mother – "How We Met Ol' Swarley" (S2E7 "Swarley")

Podcast: How We Made Your Mother
Hosts: Josh Radnor & Craig Thomas
Guest: Greg Malins (Writer/Producer)
Episode Date: December 8, 2025
Covered TV Episode: How I Met Your Mother, S2E7 “Swarley” (first aired Dec 8, 2006)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the now-iconic "Swarley" episode of How I Met Your Mother with special guest Greg Malins, the episode's writer and a sitcom veteran (Friends, Will & Grace). The hosts and guest reflect on how the show, and this episode in particular, blend classic sitcom structure, innovative storytelling, and heartfelt character moments. The conversation is brimming with behind-the-scenes anecdotes, writers' room lore, debates about creative choices, and affectionate reminiscing about cast and crew. The Swarley episode’s unique humor, the work that went into Marshall and Lily’s reunion, and the legendary running joke of Barney’s “wrong” name are explored in loving detail.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Welcoming Greg Malins + Sitcom Pedigree

[02:35–06:03]

• Craig Thomas introduces Greg Malins, emphasizing his intimidating and impressive sitcom credentials from Friends and Will & Grace.
• Greg recounts how he gravitated to How I Met Your Mother after admiring its fresh narrative approach (“a show like I’d never seen”) and wanting to stretch beyond classic sitcom formulas:

  "On Friends, we did seven flashbacks, maybe in 10 years… It seemed like I could learn so much from you guys." – Greg Malins [05:29]

Breaking TV Conventions and Writers’ Room Dynamics

[06:03–09:31]

• Discussion of HIMYM’s narrative experimentation versus the more rigid structure of Friends.
• Craig credits Greg for encouraging the team to double down on what made HIMYM unique, rather than “making it more like Friends.”
• The (possibly subconscious) Friends “dig” in the cold open (coffee vs. beer) is debated, with Greg insisting any reference was accidental:

  "All I can tell you is it wasn’t." – Greg Malins regarding the “dig” [08:57]

“Swarley” – Origins of the Joke & Writers’ Room Alchemy

[10:01–12:29]

• Greg explains how the “Swarley” name was born: in a spontaneous moment after a quick bathroom break, Rob Greenberg pitched it and Greg immediately saw the comedic potential.

  "He goes, swirly. And I said, you don’t need to tell me anything else. I’ve got this." – Greg Malins [11:12]

• Josh and Craig revel in the fun of wordplay and the tradition of sitcoms generating silly, sticky names. The episode’s nods to Friends, Cheers, and The Simpsons are charted [09:09–09:31, 27:45–27:52].

The “Name Sticking” Phenomenon

[27:07–37:35]

• The hosts discuss the comedic tradition of giving friends embarrassing nicknames, and how it mirrors real-life dynamics—a thread revisited in the listener question at the end of the episode.
• Barney’s humiliation at the hands of his friends (“Swirly,” “Swarlos,” “Swirls Barkley,” “Swarlos Barkley de España,” etc.) is celebrated for bringing a necessary vulnerability and equilibrium to his character.

Writers’ Room Credit and Memory—The Revengeance Bit

[14:14–16:18]

• Greg and Craig share a classic writers’ room story about the unproduced “Revengeance” novel and the tagline, “This time, it’s personal… again,” mused over who actually wrote it:

  "It’s a good portrait of a good writer’s room where people are fighting NOT to take credit for a joke." – Craig Thomas [15:49]

• Josh draws a parallel to the show’s theme of unreliable memory.

Friends vs HIMYM—Character Chemistry & Structural Lessons

[18:02–22:38]

• Greg discusses his growth as a writer, contrasting the “ultimate education” of Friends with the boundaries HIMYM pushed:

  "I wouldn’t have been effective if I didn’t first know all the rules that we were kind of breaking." – Greg Malins [19:34]

• Advice Greg (or possibly Stephen Lloyd) gave early on: the magic happens when “any two characters, put them in a room…you can kind of see the scene.” [21:30]
• Early seeds planted for Robin’s “one-hit wonder” Canadian pop star arc, with Greg suggesting Robin “Sprinkles” (before “Sparkles”). [22:03–22:16]

Marshall and Lily’s Reunion—Heart & Comedy

[24:07–25:10, 36:36–38:51]

• Greg’s pride in writing the emotionally significant Marshall-Lily reunion scene and the challenge of making a “funny couple” work on TV, unlike Ross and Rachel who got less funny together post-coupling.

  “To see a couple that is funny together was a revelation to me. And I was like, I gotta learn how to do that.” [25:10]

Easter Eggs and Self-“Theft” from Friends

[28:09–32:01]

• Greg reveals he “stole from himself” for the closing joke—he used a joke construction essentially identical to a Friends episode he penned (the Chandler/“Gene” bit).
• The room reacts with comic “scandal”:

  “Breaking news!” – Craig Thomas [31:04] “It’s weirdly complicated ethically because you stole it from Friends. But you wrote the joke. It’s your joke.” – Josh Radnor [30:55]

The Joy of Playing the Joke

[35:18–37:10]

• Greg observes the genuine joy among the cast in the Swirly storyline, especially noting Josh/Ted’s relish in “winning” against Barney for once.

Marshall & Lily’s Reunion Scene

[36:36–38:51]

• The heart at the end of the episode—a sweet, moving, understatedly funny reunion on the stoop—demonstrates one of HIMYM’s greatest strengths: “The last scene is the one that rips your heart out and you didn’t see it coming.” – Josh Radnor [37:35]

Behind the Scenes: Flashbacks, Visual Gags, and Directing

[41:09–46:47]

• Praise for Pamela Fryman’s direction, the challenge and craftsmanship in shooting New York street scenes on the Fox lot, and the show’s innovative visuals (crazy eyes, trippy graphics, “Pulp Fiction” freeze-frames).
• Greg admits his initial skepticism toward visual gags, then delight when they worked.

Commitment, Physical Comedy & Cast Dynamics

[44:18–45:05]

• The entire cast’s willingness to “commit hard to the bit,” especially Alyson Hannigan’s manic performance as Lily and Morena Baccarin as “Crazy Eyes.”

The “Crazy Eyes” Theory & Gendered Counterparts

[47:24–48:08]

• Ted and Barney’s instant, in-sync agreement on the “Crazy Eyes” theory contrasted with the women’s counter-theory about “jerk nails”—demonstrating the show’s balance between silly male bonding and playful battle-of-the-sexes.

The Billy Joel Debate & Music Licensing Woes

[48:12–51:09]

• Greg is “haunted” by the episode’s Billy Joel slander, as Billy Joel was his first concert and musical idol.
• Legal and rights headaches: a joke about “We Didn’t Start the Fire” is whittled down due to music clearance issues.

  “There is a whole team of people clearing that, paying royalties, paying clearance…” – Josh Radnor [51:09]

Shoutouts: Guest Stars & Actor Training

[52:24–53:02]

• Praise for guest stars Tom Lenk and Morena Baccarin (noting her Julliard training and “game”-ness for comedy and physical bits).

HIMYM’s Bonding Through Ball-Busting

[40:24–40:46]

• The joy and core of the show: “Friends know how to bust each other’s balls in such a particular way that is—is bonding. It comes from love… it’s a love language.” – Josh Radnor [40:24]
• The need for characters—especially Barney—to sometimes lose, to maintain camaraderie and balance.

The Episode’s Resonance and Timelessness

[60:28–63:10]

• Responding to a listener’s question: why do stories like “Swarley” stay funny and relatable?

  “The core of why hasn’t changed… people have loved uniting over ridiculous situations with a bit of schadenfreude.” – Swirly Memes listener question [60:32–60:43]

• Craig and Josh agree: it’s Dr. Seuss wordplay, the delight in silly words, and the fact that the teasing comes from love.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the writer’s room:

  “It’s a good portrait of a good writer’s room where people are fighting to not take credit for a joke. You know it’s good people in that room.” – Craig Thomas [15:49]

• On “stealing” the Friends joke:

  “I was just like, all right, well, I know this joke to work. There’s no way. It’s going to last all the way till shooting. It’s going to get replaced by something else, because it always does.” – Greg Malins [29:46]
  “Breaking news!” – Craig Thomas [31:04]
  “It’s weirdly complicated ethically because you stole it from Friends. But you wrote the joke. It’s your joke.” – Josh Radnor [30:55]

• On teasing in friend groups:

  "This one is like a classic old timey. The wrong name was written and it is suddenly his name. And it's gonna stick and we're gonna come up with every variation of it and we're just gonna roast him." – Josh Radnor [62:31]

• Advice to actors:

  “Don’t stress if you’re not the A story every week. People are tuning in because they like the vibe of all of you guys together.” – Greg Malins (paraphrased by Josh Radnor) [38:51]

• On the Marshall/Lily couple:

  “To see a couple that is funny together was a revelation to me. And I was like, I gotta learn how to do that.” – Greg Malins [25:10]

• On making “New York” out of LA:

  “It was probably 75 and sunny that day. Everything, the camera crew and, like, lighting and everybody had to do, and the rain machines… it really felt like this gothic sequence shot in New York streets.” – Craig Thomas [43:13]

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Essential Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |-----------------------------------------------------------|------------------| | Swarley name origin story | 01:37, 10:39–11:47 | | Opening/coffee vs. beer (Friends “dig”) | 08:00–08:57 | | Writers’ room “Revengeance” joke | 14:14–16:18 | | Marshall & Lily reunion, writing for a “funny couple” | 24:07–25:10; 36:36–38:51 | | Greg “stealing from himself” (Friends joke reveal) | 28:09–32:01 | | The magic of cast chemistry with the Swirley gag | 35:18–36:31 | | Visual innovation (crazy eyes graphic, Pulp Fiction gag) | 45:38–46:42 | | Billy Joel/music licensing constraints | 48:12–51:09 | | Listener question, timelessness of group teasing/friendship| 60:28–63:10 | | Final thoughts on re-enchanting painful places (the stoop) | 56:36–57:25 |

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Epilogue: Culture, Legacy, and the “Swarley” Effect

The episode concludes on the idea that How I Met Your Mother endures because it captures the ineffable magic of both hilarious and heartbreakingly real moments—often in the same episode. The “Swarley” nickname, like many details from the show, unlocked both the absurd and the emotionally resonant: it’s the ageless joy of friends gently tormenting one another, but always anchored in deep affection.

On why Swarley—and HIMYM—lasts:

“It comes from love. Even these little stupid stories we’re telling are people we love. And that’s why that’s the timeless piece, I think.” – Craig Thomas [64:10]

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Final shoutouts:

• Appreciation for guest stars appending to the Whedon-verse, great directorial work, and stories of writer’s family lore (“work up a joke,” go kart 15).
• Greg Malins’ humility, wisdom, and calming energy earned praise—along with his contributions to sitcoms, new and classic.

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For die-hard fans and newcomers alike, this podcast episode is a masterclass in sitcom writing, a love letter to group dynamics, and a celebration of a story that felt fresh even as it honored its roots.

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Further listening:

• Josh Radnor’s music and substack
• Craig Thomas’ novel That’s Not How It Happened
• Website: howwemadeyourmother.com

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Transcript

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[Josh Radnor]

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[Craig Thomas]

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[Josh Radnor]

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[Greg Malins]

See mintmobile.com.

What happened was I knew I was writing it and I remember that Rob Greenberg was in the room, the writer's room, and we were in there and we were like, that'll be great. She'll write the wrong name and then everybody will call him that name all throughout the script. And I either went to the bathroom or went to meet with you guys in your office for like one second. And I came back in and Rob said, oh, we have a name that they could have written down. I go, okay, great, what is it? And he goes, swirly. And I said, you don't need to tell me anything else. I've got this.

[Josh Radnor]

I'm alone.

What a pity I won't be soon in New York City when I see you. Please permit me to tell you everything in New York City.

Well, hello. Welcome to another episode of How We Made youe Mother I'm Josh Radner. I'm here with my friend Craig Thomas. Hello, Craig.

[Craig Thomas]

Hey, Josh.

[Josh Radnor]

Craig co created a show with Carter Bayes called How I Met yout Mother. I starred on that show as ted Mosby from 2005 to 2014. We did 208 episodes of the show. We're making our way through them. We one by one. We also talk a lot about what went into every decision. We're getting pretty granular. Craig and Carter, of course, were joined by a murderer's row of fantastic writers. And we have one of the best here with us today. Craig, say a little bit more to tee it up.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, yes. This gentleman joined us in season two with a very intimidating resume, joining me and Carter, who had never even been on staff on a multi camera set, technically speaking. And Greg joined us. And I've already blown the name. Ladies and gentlemen, it's Greg Mayans. Let's just get right into it. Greg Mayans, who worked on so many great shows including Friends and co running or running Friends for several years. I mean, Greg was a name we would see when Alec. I went to college with Alec. We would watch Friends in college and like see Greg's name on there, who was very young writing for Friends at the time. And I would think to myself, someday maybe I'll just at least get to meet maybe a guy like Greg Maylands and just like talk to him one time. Instead, Greg joined season two of how much yout Mother? And did multiple seasons helping us as incredibly valuable and wonderful and not just a great writer, but just a great dude.

[Josh Radnor]

Let's, let's keep complimenting him for 45 minutes. I don't want him talking.

[Greg Malins]

I want to throw, I want to throw one more thing out there about that.

[Josh Radnor]

This is Greg, by the way, a acclimate to his voice. Go ahead.

[Greg Malins]

The preamble to working on the show was I was on Will and Grace the year before when you guys did your first season. I was on Will and Grace and there were three writers on Will and Grace and we were all, you know, as a close writer, but there were three of us who were watching How I Met yout Mother from the first episode all the way through. And we'd come in the next day and the writers room would talk about the episodes and stuff and those and how much we loved the show. And this was the last season of Will and Grace. So I was already like looking for what could be next for me. But it was Jamie Ronheimer, Robbie, Rashid and me all on Will and Grace talking about How I Met yout Mother. All of us ended up writing on How I Met yout Mother.

[Josh Radnor]

That's so cool.

[Craig Thomas]

Multiple seasons. I forgot that little trivia fact. That's amazing. And you, Greg, you kind of sought us out a little bit and made us look very good to our bosses because you were a way bigger name than we were. And we were not a hit show yet.

[Greg Malins]

It was a big show.

[Craig Thomas]

It wasn't. It was not. It was. Season one was okay, and it did not. It was not a hit.

[Greg Malins]

I loved the show.

The biggest thing for me was if I could write on this show, I would learn so much. It was a show like I'd never seen. The way the show. The way you guys created, essentially, in television, how to tell a story in a very, very different way than had ever been done on television. I mean, on friends, we did seven flashbacks, maybe in 10 years. But I was like. It seemed like I could learn so much from you guys. And that's why I pursued it, because I didn't have, you know, I was open and I loved the show. So it seemed like it made a lot of sense.

[Josh Radnor]

Greg, given that you had such a history before How I Met yout Mother, writing on more kind of classically structured sitcoms, did you. Before you saw How I Met yout Mother, did you feel narratively kind of hemmed in, like. Or did How I Met yout Mother show you that there was more possible to do with the form?

[Greg Malins]

The second one. Definitely not the first one, right?

Yeah, but look. Well, we talked about this off air, but it goes back to my desire to not stagnate.

And if I could learn and grow and discover a whole new way of writing, which, I'll be totally honest, I'm not sure I ever got as good as you guys at doing that, but I gotten good. Like, I was much better.

[Craig Thomas]

Do you know what I love one of the many things I love about you. I'll keep calm. I'm just going to compliment you the whole hour.

You could have come in and by the way, the network and the studio probably would have loved you coming in, saying this. You could have come in and said, let's make this even more like Friends. Friends was a huge hit. Let's make this more like Friends. You came in instead and didn't see all the similarities of How Much yout Mother to Friends, which there are many. And we love Friend. Like I said, Alec, our producer, and I watched Friends together in our college living room, in our house we lived in every week. We love Friends with All respect, but, like, we didn't want How I Met yout Mother to just ape and try to mimic that show. We wanted it to be its own thing. You came in and really saw what was different about How I Met yout Mother and said, do more of that. Do more of that. And it kind of watching this episode, Swirly. That's the episode we're talking about today. Very a classic. Greg's first of several episodes he wrote and an Alzheimer. And I love how this episode begins with a cold open. That very much differentiates Friends from How I Met yout Mother. And it was sort of. I felt that that encapsulated your entire approach. You said, no, be your own thing. And I want to be part of that. I love that. Thank you for that. Coming in with that.

[Greg Malins]

I gotta talk about that for a second because I did not write it in that way at all. Like, I just wrote it. It seemed like they usually drink beer, and in this scene, they had to, because of the wrong name on the coffee cup. They had to be in a coffee shop. What's a good joke that could come from that? And I just thought, saying, well, drinking beer is better than drinking coffee. I wasn't even thinking.

[Craig Thomas]

And then I forgot about that because.

[Greg Malins]

Lot of the same crew as Friends did on How I Met your Mother. And I got down onto the stage that first day, and a couple of the cameramen who I knew from Friends were like, oh, that was a good dig at Friends. This is a good dig at the Friends. And I was like, wait, why a good dig? And they pointed it out, and I was like, oh, yeah, totally. I can see why you would think that. But it didn't come from that.

[Josh Radnor]

I think it's pretty universally acknowledged as a dig at Friends. Like, I don't think anyone thinks of it that it's not that.

[Greg Malins]

All I can tell you is it wasn't.

[Josh Radnor]

There might have been some. You were subconsciously, like, Freudian, like, killing your father or something. Like, it feels like you were. Yeah.

[Greg Malins]

I.

[Josh Radnor]

No, I love in this episode, though, that it starts with a friend's joke and ends with a Cheers joke.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And there's something so great about that that, you know, in. In some ways, we were a humble show. We were. We were trying to stay on the air. We were. But also, I think we were really trying to situate ourselves in the constellation of great classic sitcoms.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

You know.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And even the. We can get there later. But the ending with the Cheers font.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God.

[Josh Radnor]

Is so funny and such A little wink towards sitcom lovers.

[Craig Thomas]

It made me so happy. And your name's in there because Greg was an executive producer. Greg's name is up there in the Cheers logo. That made me happier than anything in the entire episode. Seeing that before.

[Josh Radnor]

Before we go on, let's just say this. This episode is. Is called Swarli and Alec. When did this episode air?

[Alec Lev]

December 8, 2006.

[Josh Radnor]

December 8, 2006. And Craig, or maybe even Greg, you can give, like, a little summation of what is this episode, what happens?

[Craig Thomas]

Quickie logline. For people who didn't just watch it the way that we just watched it.

[Greg Malins]

It was a really big episode.

Impactful and important. And I remember fighting to be able to write it, because I really wanted to write it, because Marshall and Lily had been broken up for so long, and this was the episode where they going to get back together. And that one I really, really wanted to write. And I remember fighting for it and was granted the script. And so I was really excited about it.

[Craig Thomas]

And.

[Greg Malins]

But, you know, and that was a great storyline in it, and the big getting back together of Marshall and Lily and. But the other storyline overtook everything, it really did, and became the title of the show, which was in a coffee shop. The coffee girl misspells Barney as swirly. And then that was what happened was I knew I was writing it, and I remember that Rob Greenberg was in the room, the writer's room, and we were in there, and we were like, that'll be great. She'll write the wrong name, and then everybody will call him that name all throughout the script. And we were breaking the episode all down with the writing staff. And I knew I was writing it. They knew I was writing it. And I either went to the bathroom or went to meet with you guys in your office for, like, one second. And I came back in, and Rob said, oh, we have a name that they could have written down. I go, okay, great. What is it? And he goes, swirly. And I said, you don't need to tell me anything else, but I've got this.

[Craig Thomas]

You made the sale, so stop selling.

[Greg Malins]

I need nothing else. I have this all, like, through my head. Everything started swirling as it did for everybody.

[Craig Thomas]

Swirling.

[Greg Malins]

Swart, Healy, Swarls, Barclays, like, every.

[Craig Thomas]

Like, oh, my God. So I text. I texted Rob about this, and I said, you came up with the name Swartly, right? Because I remember that, too. Greg and Rob wrote back, yes. I used my propensity for verbal gaps, for infamy. I think he will often say words and names the wrong way. And it's just he had a natural talent to come up with it.

[Josh Radnor]

It's also one of those perfect things because it's not like carny. It's not like it's like, close, but it's not that close. Like, it's just weird.

[Craig Thomas]

It's weirdly not obvious.

[Josh Radnor]

It's just weird enough.

[Greg Malins]

It's ridiculously not that close.

[Josh Radnor]

It shares an R sound and an E ending. That's it.

[Greg Malins]

But how great of Rob, by the way, for me to walk back into that room and say, we came up with a good name.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Greg Malins]

Without saying, I came up with a good name.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

He didn't take credit.

[Greg Malins]

No. I walked in and he said, we came up with the ad. He didn't take credit, which is great.

[Josh Radnor]

And I wrote you this little ditty to see sing to you in New York City.

We'll be right back.

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[Josh Radnor]

And now back to the show.

[Greg Malins]

There's one. There's a classic. Well, it's not about the episode, but there's a classic How I Met yout Mother story. A joke that was never in the show. It was just a room bit that there is still a huge debate about which we can get to later. Or I can do it right now.

[Craig Thomas]

No, you have to tell us right now. I don't even know what you mean by that.

[Greg Malins]

I had come up with something that I thought was funny, and I think it was for some storyline that we never did, or maybe you did it after I left. I don't really remember, but I just thought it was funny, and it was a novel, and it was called Revengeance. And I thought that was funny because it was about a guy who got revenge but then needed to get it again.

[Craig Thomas]

Revengeance.

[Greg Malins]

Revenge. And that, to me, was funny enough. But then. And this is where the big.

Thing is my recollection. Luckily, I'm on this and Stephen Lloyd is not. Stephen Lloyd said, the tagline to that book is, this time it's personal again. Which I thought was one of the funniest lines I have ever heard.

[Craig Thomas]

How do we not find a place for that?

[Greg Malins]

To this day, Stephen Lloyd swears that I came up with it. And he'll tell me that. Wow. He'll go, you can. And I was even at the strike, somebody came up to one of the writers I used to work with said, oh, you know, we tell you a joke in the room all the time on whatever show he was working on. I said, what joke is that? And he goes, this time it's personal again. And I was like, that wasn't me. And Stephen Lloyd said, it was you. I remember. And I said, stephen, if I had come up with a joke that funny, I would never have forgotten it, I can promise you that.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God, that is so Stephen Lloyd. That's a good portrait of a good writer's room where people are fighting to not take credit for a joke. You know, it's good people in that room.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. Well, it's also a. It's also a metaphor for the show itself, which is like the fallibility of memory and like, who did what when?

[Greg Malins]

You know, that's a really good point.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Greg Malins]

But anyway, that's the. That's the side trip of that joke that I still find so funny. Anytime you start something with this time and end it with again, it's gonna be fun.

[Craig Thomas]

I'm. I can't believe we can't. Didn't find a way to get that.

[Josh Radnor]

Craig, when they. When they pay us the mountains of money to do the. The movie. The one off movie. Yeah, we gotta get that in there.

[Craig Thomas]

We have to make. Make it right and get that.

[Josh Radnor]

I feel like Marshall gets bored of being a lawyer and he writes crime novels on the side.

[Craig Thomas]

Revengeance. Oh, my God, Greg. I completely forgot and still don't fully believe that you didn't mean that Friends reference, because Hymnum fans excerpt that cold open and play it all the time. I think at least it was Subconscious. I'm going with Josh's theory that subconsciously you knew. Because I'm so convinced that you meant it, that you've told me this before, that you didn't mean it. But I just. My brain doesn't let it in. And watching it again, I was like, oh, all right. Greg did that. I will never fully believe that you didn't mean it. I'm just saying that right now.

[Greg Malins]

Well, you know what? It's like a song, like, well, whatever lyric you hear that means something to you, that's great. I'm fine with that. But I had no. I certainly came into How I met your mother having no animosity towards Friends whatsoever.

[Craig Thomas]

No, no. Neither do we. I want to make that very. No one. No one did. Yeah, right. Because sometimes people excerpt that and they go, ah, Friends. Him took the piss out of Friends. And it wasn't. Even if it had been overtly a Friends reference, it wouldn't have been that. Because we adored Friends. We wanted to write a show because of Friends.

[Josh Radnor]

All it really showed was that our protagonists were alcoholics. It was kind of a cell phone.

[Craig Thomas]

It was a cell phone.

[Greg Malins]

But it also seemed true.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, it is true. Yeah, it is true. In their case, it's true.

[Josh Radnor]

There's also more potential for dramatic chaos to unfold at night at a bar versus daytime in a coffee shop.

[Greg Malins]

You're telling me.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. It's a credit to Friends that they got that many stories out of hanging out at a coffee. Well, just to ask, I feel like I have to ask the very obvious question.

What was it like writing on Friends and then writing on How I Met yout Mother? Were you in your head about, like, I want to. Did you have a voice in your head saying, I know. I want to steer things away from things we did at Friends. I think sometimes you helped us do that. When we were inadvertently stepping on some storyline. You'd go, I don't know about that. What was your own. What did you. What was your feeling of that journey of having been on both shows?

[Greg Malins]

You know, Friends was the ultimate learning experience for me. You know, I. And I learned from the best. And we put in whatever, 18 hours a day for six, seven years, whatever it was that I was on that. And I learned from David Crane and Marta Kaufman, who are just brilliant. And I was the same age as, you know, a lot of the staff was the same age as the actors, as the characters. And so every. I mean, everything in my life went into that show. I came, unfortunately, to How I met your mother with all life of my life events have been used already.

[Craig Thomas]

You had fully caught up to that, to real time.

[Greg Malins]

The thing we were saying was true, which is that was the ultimate education in how to write a really good, solid, classic sitcom. The beats go like this. You hit this at the act break. You hit this and you get the. And everything, which I didn't really even know at that point until I learned it all there. And so to be able to then go to How I Met yout Mother, like, I don't think. I wouldn't say that I was hugely effective on that show, but I wouldn't have been effective if I didn't first know all the rules that we were kind of breaking.

[Craig Thomas]

Right? Yeah.

[Greg Malins]

Yeah. You know what I mean?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah. That's a cool way to put that. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

What? Just for Friends fans out there, are there any things that you lent personally, like from your own life that ended up being on Friends in a somewhat iconic way?

[Greg Malins]

Oh, that's. That's like too many things.

[Craig Thomas]

It's probably too many things, right?

[Josh Radnor]

Did you have a pet monkey?

[Greg Malins]

No. I came on second season, but Joey wearing all of Chandler's clothes is a true story.

[Craig Thomas]

Did you do that or did someone do that to you?

[Greg Malins]

I was in the room. You know who it was? Brian. Do you know Brian Boyle?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah, Brian, I wrote on American Dad. Carter and I with Fran Boyle. Yeah, you guys go way back, right?

[Greg Malins]

Brian did that. Well, Brian and I went to middle school together, but he put on everything Sebastian Jones owned, who's also a writer. He was on Spin City and other things.

[Craig Thomas]

Sebastian, you all became comedy writers from that event. Oh, my God.

[Greg Malins]

There was a time on Friends worth a quarter of the writing staff all went to high school together.

[Josh Radnor]

Greg, I remember there were two things you told me early when you came in, maybe the first couple years, but one of them was you said it's really important for writers to get to know the actors. Like, it's really like writers and actors should be, you know. You know, really, because you take. You get to know them, You. You get little. You know, you notice little quirks about their. The way they say things or the way they throw lines away that if you study them. And that was. That was part of what. In the negotiation around the writers was like, writers should be on set. Writers should be fraternizing with the actors. It's like magic happens because of that. Right? That was one thing you told me. And the other thing was, you know, when all guns are firing on a sitcom, when you can picture, you can Any two characters, put them in a room together and, you know, you can kind of see the scene. Do you remember saying that?

[Greg Malins]

Yeah, I don't think that was Stephen Lloyd.

[Josh Radnor]

Maybe it was Stephen Lloyd.

[Greg Malins]

I think. Yeah. That maybe kind of paraphrased something that Chuck Lorre once famously said, which a sitcom is two people on a couch talking.

[Josh Radnor]

Right, right.

[Greg Malins]

But, yeah, I believe that. But once you get the. And the characters on how I Mayweather were so great. And we got to have so much fun with Robin after season one.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We found so many other speeds for her in season two.

[Greg Malins]

And that was the first thing I ever said to them on the phone. Do you remember that?

[Craig Thomas]

What did you say?

[Greg Malins]

I said Robin should have been a one hit wonder in Canada.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes, that's right. The initial Robin sparkle scene. Like, it was.

[Greg Malins]

I said Robin sprinkles.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Greg Malins]

And then you said Robin sparkles, and I was like, oh, yeah, that's better.

[Craig Thomas]

I mean, yeah, that's true. That. I mean, that was. We're getting a little ahead of ourselves here. But it's true a little bit. Not too far down the line because.

[Greg Malins]

Robin didn't have any backstory in season one.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And you said Canadian. How do you think you arrived at that? You just thought Canada backstory, the Alanis Morissette thing, like, we'll just dive. We'll just do it.

[Greg Malins]

Yeah, yeah, something like that. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

It's such a great idea. I mean, it's one of the all time best ideas.

[Josh Radnor]

There's also, like, certain Canadian things. Like.

What'S the huge Canadian band? The Tragically Hip. Do you know the Tragically Hip? Yeah. They're the biggest band Canada ever saw. And they would play very small clubs, the rest of the world, including the United States, like, they never broke out of Canada.

[Greg Malins]

Really.

[Josh Radnor]

Even though we're so beloved. I think there's something funny about, like, art just being, like sequestered up. Like, you live up here, it might not travel south.

[Craig Thomas]

You know, you can really not have heard of things that happen up there. Which. Which made this was perfectly fit. This.

[Greg Malins]

Some of our cats. All of our Canada jokes were my favorite.

[Craig Thomas]

I. Oh, my God. Yeah, you. You helped open the door.

[Greg Malins]

Well, she was Canadian before I came on the show. It wasn't me.

[Craig Thomas]

Right.

[Greg Malins]

But just the one hit wonder thing. But the. The. One of the things which is the kind of joke I love, which is she was talking all excited about something, and after you win a hockey game, you know, you all go out to Danby's. There's just silence. She's like, oh, come on, you guys don't have Danby's here. That thing of, like, people from another country. And that wasn't my joke in any way, but sure was Stephen Moy.

That kind of joke just really makes me laugh.

[Josh Radnor]

Kobi always played the exasperation at not having the same cultural references very well.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Because that was real. And she was like, wow, they're doing more Canada bit. That was an actor playing the reality. Greg, I thought you were going to say one of the earliest things you said to us.

That made me. It was when we met with you about you maybe working on the show. And I go, this is the guy you said, I love that you have a couple that loves each other on this show. You have a couple that's not the Bickersons. It's not like the typical TV couple. And it's the sort of heavyset guy and the wife who's taking the piss out of him. It's like they actually really like each other. And it's funny because you joined then you joined the show and they were apart. And I think that's why you wanted to write the episode that got them back together, isn't it?

[Greg Malins]

Because that was one of the things we talked about at Will and Grace and one of the things that I thought was the most challenging and something that I wanted to learn because I took it a step further than what you're saying, that, yes, there was a couple on there that loved each other and clearly were meant to be each other, yet they were funny.

[Craig Thomas]

Right.

[Greg Malins]

They were really funny in love.

[Craig Thomas]

Right.

[Greg Malins]

And if you remember on Friends, we got Ross and Rachel together and then broke them up as fast as we possibly could because they weren't nearly as funny together as they were apart.

[Craig Thomas]

Right.

[Greg Malins]

So to see a couple that is funny together was a revelation to me. And I was like, I gotta learn how to do that.

[Craig Thomas]

Was it a bait and switch, though? Did you sign up to want to be on the show? And then we broke them up. Had we broken them up already?

[Josh Radnor]

No, they broke up at the end of season one. So they were.

[Craig Thomas]

I know, but we met Greg during season one, I think, didn't we, Greg? Didn't we meet you as it was airing? Anyway, I might be misremembering, but you wanted to get them back together, which I love.

[Greg Malins]

You're talking about the fancy lunch at the commissary, right?

[Craig Thomas]

We had a fancy commissary lunch.

[Greg Malins]

I remember that. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

I mean, we were nervous, we were intimidated, we Were. I want to make clear Carter and I are both huge Friends fans. Like that. Whatever that cold open was or wasn't decide. We love Friends, and we were very intimidated by you. And we, you know, there was still the feeling from the studio and the network that these two guys, Carter and Craig, are very young. They've never run a TV show. They never had. They never staffed on a real sitcom. So the confidence it gave them for you to join was very real. But then you came in, and you were great, and you wanted to keep making. Help us make this show, not make it more like another show. And again, that was huge.

[Greg Malins]

So proudest of any show I've ever worked on.

[Josh Radnor]

Oh, man, that's so nice. Greg, how many seasons were you on the show?

[Craig Thomas]

2, 3, 4?

[Greg Malins]

5. 5. 5. Sounds right.

[Josh Radnor]

And had you worked with Pam Freyman before on any of your shows?

[Greg Malins]

Yeah, yeah. She directed some Friends. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Okay.

[Greg Malins]

I'd known Pam. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

But no other Friends writer, as far as I can remember, ever worked for him. I meant yout mother. So you are.

[Greg Malins]

Well, I wouldn't let that happen. OB.

[Craig Thomas]

Who else do we need? Greg. That's cool. We should talk more about the episode, too.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, let's talk about the episode. So, yes. So I love that it opens with this. Whether intentional or unintentional, this Friends thing, it ends with this Cheers thing. To me, it was just evidence. We were swinging for the fences. We were really trying to make a classic sitcom. One thing that really amuses me about the whole swarthy bit.

I think that it was really important to see Barney, like, have episodes where he was losing and the butt of the joke.

[Greg Malins]

Agree.

[Josh Radnor]

He couldn't be, like, a triumphal, like, a triumphant character all the time. He had to have the piss taken out of him to maintain his place in the friend group on some level. But I texted Craig last night. We were talking about the episode, and I said it really amuses me that most of Ted's arc in this is just roasting Barney for this name. And also, even, like, calling the bar is like. It's another nod to, like, that's Bart Simpson calling mo.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Friends, Cheers, and Simpsons.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. Like, you guys are really, like, drawing from, like, this great well of inspiration.

[Craig Thomas]

That was my favorite one, the one that he doesn't actually get to deliver to Barney. But Robin's like, you should remember that one was that Swirls Barkley. I think Swirls Barkley people in Espanola was also great, which I think was in Greg's original draft. I don't Think that was a room. That was a Melen's Swarlos. That was you.

[Greg Malins]

That probably came out of the room.

[Craig Thomas]

No, I think that was it.

[Greg Malins]

It was in my original script, but it probably came from the room. All right, I'll stop here just to prevent this from happening. Saying, you know, it was a nod to friend. You know, starts with a friend's joke, ends with a tears joke. Here's the truth. And I've never told anybody this. This is a revelation. And it's not something that. That, A, I'm proud of and B, makes me feel good and C, makes me look good. Because none of the above are true. The end of the cold open of this episode. I wrote that joke already on Friends.

[Craig Thomas]

What?

[Greg Malins]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Wait, say more. My mind is racing.

[Greg Malins]

So there was an episode of Friends where.

They were deciding Phoebe had three babies to name. And so everybody was fighting to make her name them after us. And she. I said something like, to Chandler. Well, I'd never use Chandler because your name's weird. And he goes, damn it, it is weird. I'm going to get a new new name. And then he left. And then he came back in another scene. And he goes, hey, I've. I've got a new name. I'm changing my name. No more Chandler. I figured it out. I think I'm going to be Rick. And it was Fee. It was Phoebe and Joey. And they were like, I don't know if you're a Rick. And CB's like, can he. Can you pull off Rick? And he goes, I can pull off Rick. And they go, no. And he goes, well, what name do you think? And they look at each other and they go, how about Gene?

He goes, I'm not Gene. That's not a cool name. My name's not Gene. And he gets mad and leaves. And Phoebe and Joey turn to each other and go, whoa, what's up with Gene?

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God. I know now. I know that moment.

[Greg Malins]

This is the thing is, I was sitting right here, specifically where I'm sitting right now. And I remember getting to that. I needed a blow for the scene. And the way the show works, if nobody knows. It's like you write a draft and maybe you get notes and then rewrite that draft. And then that draft goes to the entire room, and the entire room rewrites that draft. And then do a table read. It's rewritten again. I've run through. It's rewritten again. And I was just like, all right, well, I know this joke to work. There's no way. It's going to last all the way till shooting. It's going to get replaced by something else, because it always does.

[Craig Thomas]

But you were saying. And you were having this wrestling match in your mind. Cause you were wondering about the ethics of stealing that from Friends. And you were kind of wanting that joke to be cut. Is that what you're saying? Deep down, you kind of wanted it to be cut.

[Greg Malins]

I wanted it to be cut. And I assumed it was gonna be changed.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God.

[Greg Malins]

Because everything gets changed. And then it just kept being in there. And it kept being in there and kept being in there.

[Craig Thomas]

It's so funny. It's so funny.

[Greg Malins]

And at a certain point, I was like. But no one has ever said anything. None of the crew said anything to me about it. No one's ever said anything to me about it. This is the very first time I'm revealing that I've stole from myself.

[Craig Thomas]

Breaking news.

[Josh Radnor]

It's weirdly complicated ethically because you stole it from Friends. But you wrote the joke. It's your joke.

[Craig Thomas]

You wrote the joke.

[Greg Malins]

But it's also right there. It's right there.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Greg Malins]

Like, what other joke are you going to do in that moment?

[Josh Radnor]

Well, I think. I'll tell you this. I think you topped your joke in the way you did it. Because it's Marshall who says you almost never see old Swarls get that upset. Right. And what's funny to me about it is one when Swiley comes on and he looks at Ted and Marshall and he knows, oh, this is now my name. Like, this is. They're gonna. They're gonna get this is my name. But they immediately go into not just the name, but variations on the name, like his name got a nickname immediately for Marshall.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, that's the twist that makes this. Okay, Greg.

[Josh Radnor]

That's what. That's what makes it extra. That's why it lasted into the episode.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God. I love this. I never knew. You really never told. You never said a word about this.

[Greg Malins]

And you were just like, I've never told anybody that.

[Craig Thomas]

I've never even told my w. Oh, my God. This is. This is major news. Major news.

[Greg Malins]

I just feel like if I. As long as I don't tell anybody.

[Craig Thomas]

No one will ever know.

[Josh Radnor]

But now everyone knows.

[Greg Malins]

Now everyone knows. And I'm a. I'm a. I'm a hack.

[Craig Thomas]

You're ripping off yourself. I think it doesn't count.

[Alec Lev]

Well, I just want to say that the. The crack team behind how we made your mother. We are. We are always hard at work. And so, ladies and gentlemen.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh my.

[Josh Radnor]

Hey everyone.

[Alec Lev]

It's at this point that I played for the guys the clip from Friends that we managed to call up from the Internet right then and there. Greg's memory is correct, except that Chandler's chosen name was Clint and not Rick. While yes, Joey and Phoebe did look to rename him Gene. But as we aren't sure that we have the rights to play that clip here, we've instead given you the link in the show notes and you can check it out for yourself. And now here's their reaction to having heard Joey ask what's up with Gene?

[Craig Thomas]

Oh my God, that is so crooked. Greg. I, I this is, this is. You blown it. You're blown our minds.

[Josh Radnor]

It was Clint though. It was Clint. You misremembered.

[Greg Malins]

What did I remember? Rick.

[Josh Radnor]

I think you said Rick.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, you've blown our minds. Okay, but Gene, you remember Gene?

[Greg Malins]

No, Gene. Gene was correct. I, I believe me, I know the name they said was Gene. And you know how I know that? I had completely and totally forgotten that David Crane's father was named Gene. And that did not go over great for a couple seconds.

[Craig Thomas]

But God bless him for knowing it was funny. He put it in. It's in there.

[Josh Radnor]

And this old man, he must admit he fell in love with you.

[Craig Thomas]

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[Greg Malins]

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[Craig Thomas]

End of commercials back to show.

[Josh Radnor]

You know what else I really like, though, is when Robin says, swirly hooked him up. And then Ted says, oh, good, you got my text. Like, everyone is immediately on board with Barney is now swirly. No one questions it. Like, it's just like. I mean, this is part of their telepathy, right? Like, they're like, you know, even without the subtitles, they're still speaking telepathically with each other.

[Greg Malins]

Yeah, well, that was one of the things I noticed in the rewatch, which I didn't notice the first time I watched it, except for the weird music at the very beginning of the episode, which in no way was the music we used when it was on network television. But whatever was the joy. And, Josh, this is especially true of you, in my opinion, the joy this swirly storyline brought to, I would say the characters, which is true, but also the actors, like, the joy of being able to play this. And I remember thinking, and Josh, especially you, like, you know, swirls as they're swirling. You know, you know.

I was like, josh is having a really good time right now.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Greg Malins]

And all that. The whole cast was enjoying it so much. And it came across.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, it was just one of those.

[Greg Malins]

Magic bits that brought out, like, the best.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, you know, there's. We had a teacher at nyu, Jim Calder, who used to talk about, like, find the status in the scene, like, who's high status, who's low status. And Barney always.

[Craig Thomas]

He. He.

[Josh Radnor]

Neil played him very high status. I think it was the right choice. He was written kind of. Even when he was 100% in error, he still had great confidence. So I think there was something joyful about getting to seize the reins and be more high status because I had this joke that drove him crazy. You know, it was kryptonite for him. And I think Ted loved it, and I loved Ted loving it. So there was a lot of joy in it.

[Greg Malins]

I did, too. I loved it, especially for Ted.

[Craig Thomas]

It's funny, we sometimes talk, Greg, so far on the podcast about there's a few episodes that don't have the right title, because the thing from the episode, like, the Lemon Law, like, there's certain episodes of Season one, where you're like, the thing that really resonated across time and you only noticed 20 years later isn't the name. This time we got it right. Swirly. It should be called Swirly. This is so the Swirly episode that I almost forgot. It's the Marshall and Lily get back together episode.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, that's a little bit of the genius of the way it's structured. It feels like this big, broad comedy. And then we do this all the time. In How I Met yout Mother, the last scene is the one that kind of rips your heart out and you didn't see it coming.

[Craig Thomas]

And that's a great scene, Greg. You wrote that really well. That last scene, I can tell you.

[Greg Malins]

That scene of them on the steps. I mean, if I don't. I don't have my old script because I don't have that program we wrote on anymore.

If you looked at my script, I don't think any of those words were in there. That scene. I think even though I love writing emotional scenes like that, I didn't have any recollection of writing those words. And I bet it was a combination of the room, you and Carter, who were really good at writing emotional stuff, and then Pam and Jason working with the words on the set.

[Craig Thomas]

Right. Well, it was a big scene. I'm sure we went over and over it a bit and changed some things, but the construction of getting to that scene and Crazy Eyes, getting them back together, I think it redeems the crazy eyes thing, too. That he loves her crazy eyes. We're all fucking crazy. We are all fucking crazy. And every now and again, it's the right kind of crazy for the right person.

[Josh Radnor]

I just remembered, Greg, this is actually what you told me. Might not have told me the thing about every two characters, but I do remember you told me this, which is you said, don't stress if you're not the Ace story every week. You said people are tuning in because they like the vibe of all of you guys together. And you don't have to worry about if you're getting the best jokes in an episode or the best storyline in an episode. Just know that the show is working and everyone will get their moment in the sun. I do remember you telling me this. You might not remember telling me this.

[Greg Malins]

It was like I was up there sitting on a big hill, like, giving advice to anybody.

[Craig Thomas]

You were Yoda. You were the older, wiser guy. You were, like 38, and you were like the older, wiser guy.

[Josh Radnor]

You, at one point in your life Commanded a lot of respect.

But you've.

[Craig Thomas]

Done everything to erode that since then.

[Josh Radnor]

But one thing I'm noticing as I watch back through these episodes, sometimes there'd be an episode like, I bet you there was a part of me that thought, oh, I don't have. Have a lot to do in this episode. Or I'm not the. You know, But I walk back. I walk back through it, or I watch it again, and I'm like, oh, no. I'm delighted by Ted's storyline in this episode. Like, it's so much fun sometimes to be the C story or to be the joke guy who just pops in and throws the funny thing and gets the hell out, you know?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. You're really funny in this one, Josh. And I think it's like, the pressure's off you for having to carry any water emotionally in this one. And you really.

[Josh Radnor]

I think I felt that you feel really.

[Craig Thomas]

It's palpable, you playing it that way.

[Josh Radnor]

But you enjoy.

[Greg Malins]

You enjoyed it so much, and it made it so enjoyable to watch.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, it's also, you know, friends know how to bust each other's balls in such a particular way that is, like, it is bonding, you know, I mean, Barney seems like he's genuinely upset, but it's ultimately like, you know, it comes from love, because you can't actually do that to someone you dislike, you know, Then you're like an actual bad person.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, but if you're doing it. It's a love language.

[Josh Radnor]

It's a love language. Exactly.

[Greg Malins]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

The best. Barney's attempt to say he likes it now was really funny. That was probably in your original script. No, I like it.

[Josh Radnor]

Jordana thought it was going to work. She was like, oh, this is going to work.

[Craig Thomas]

I'm glad we fooled her.

[Josh Radnor]

She overestimated his powers.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God.

[Greg Malins]

Maybe we should, because the one person to talk about, too, is Marina. Like, Marina was. Oh, my God.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Really funny.

[Greg Malins]

But she. You know what? She was. She was so game.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Greg Malins]

To do anything we put on her plate. No questions. You got it. I'll pretend. Yeah. I'll say that I'm scared of a weird hunchback midget man yelling at me. You got it.

[Craig Thomas]

In the rain. Yeah.

[Greg Malins]

Yeah, I will.

[Josh Radnor]

I have a question about a logic thing in this script that. That came up. So Marshall is getting them beers, and he hears the breaking of the glass of the picture. Right. Comes back in. At that point, it's broken on the ground. But then in the flashback, when Lily's breaking into the apartment, she Breaks the picture before they even get in there in the dark.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Greg Malins]

The truth is, what is in the show is he says, what was that? And she said, I dropped my keys.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And she wasn't lying. You think she's lying. There's all these great twists and turns. You think she's lying, but she wasn't lying.

[Greg Malins]

The episode was a very high level of difficulty. I remember having to consult the flashback experts. I mean, you tell one half of the story and then you go back.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. It's a form we've done a couple times, but at this point, we did it in. Ted Mosby, architect, kind of did it only a couple episodes prior to this one. It's clearly a form. We go back and see it again and look at new things.

[Greg Malins]

There was nothing I had ever done. And it was really the idea that.

[Josh Radnor]

That.

[Craig Thomas]

That her crazy story, that Miranda's crazy story turned out to be true and that it's. Lily is very satisfying.

[Josh Radnor]

Oh, my God.

[Greg Malins]

And that.

[Craig Thomas]

That sequence of. Of Lily running after her in the rain on New York Street. I remember watching that in 2006 with Rebecca, with my wife. And that was the hardest she had laughed at anything on How I Met yout Mother to date that. Something about, like, Allyson's, like, physical commitment to the insanity of that bit. It looked great. It was a. So I was also watching it going. People don't understand. Like, it's really hard to make that little slice of New York street on the Fox lot, teeny, tiny little segment look like New York in the rain. We're in Southern California. It was probably 75 and sunny that day. Everything, the camera crew and, like, lighting and everybody had to do and the rain machines and, like, to make that feel. It really feels like this gothic sequence shot in New York streets. It really played that way, this dark horror sequence. And I was so proud of how great that looked watching this 20 years later.

[Greg Malins]

When I.

[Josh Radnor]

When I was watching it. It the other night with Jordana, I. I remember just being like, when she said, you know, there's a humpback with a limp who's chasing me on the street. And I remember being. What is this? Like, what? Oh, yeah, she's crazy. I guess she's crazy. And once I totally forgot, I started laughing so hard. And Jordana, she wasn't onto it yet. Like, she didn't understand what was happening.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And I was like, just watch.

[Craig Thomas]

Just.

[Josh Radnor]

And the fact that it's.

Doing that voice. Oh, my God, it's so funny. Sometimes when you guys asked Ally to do like crazy things, like. And everyone just had an ability to commit to the bit fully.

[Craig Thomas]

Just her wide eyes and her cute little face just go crowy. So it's. She leaned in.

[Greg Malins]

So everyone committed so hard.

[Craig Thomas]

Committed so hard so perfectly.

[Greg Malins]

There was such commitment from every actor on this show in that episode. I mean, there's commitment obviously in every episode, but. But in this one, it really stood out to me because there was weird. People were being asked to do weird shit.

[Craig Thomas]

There was. Lily dives over a couch at one point. People are doing crazy shit. And it's a 21 minute episode.

[Greg Malins]

Barney plays something he's never played before for the first time.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah. Like total defeat and really, really, really being bothered by something. And you're right, it's the most bothered we've seen him be in some ways, maybe a couple moments in season one. But it revealed to us a very fun speed for Barney that you had to do to earn some of the other insane, like, unlikable shit that Barney does.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

When you see this, when you see how actually fragile Barney is, it really earns you a lot. It shows you why he's.

[Josh Radnor]

There's almost. There's some sort of like, mathematical formula. Like three Barney whatevers to one, you know, where he has to have his knees pulled out from under him. I also love, you know, there's that Pulp Fiction freeze frame of Lily going over the couch.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, that was a great moment. Was that Allison or was that a stunt woman? I asked her.

[Josh Radnor]

Ooh, I don't remember.

[Craig Thomas]

Because it was. She's really in midair diving. Maybe it was Ally. I can't remember.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, there's another thing, Greg, that you probably didn't do on Friends or Will and Grace is like the graphic going into the crazy eyes, which is like a kind of. We did that on Pineapple Incident.

[Craig Thomas]

You know, just set up in Pineapple Incident.

[Josh Radnor]

Just those weird, suddenly trippy graphics that.

[Craig Thomas]

The Jack in the box laughing is terrifying. It really. It was fantastic.

[Greg Malins]

Fantastic.

[Craig Thomas]

Graphic.

[Greg Malins]

I remember being very, very, very nervous. And my instinct was to say, I don't think we need to go into her eyes.

[Craig Thomas]

Right.

[Greg Malins]

That was my instinct. And because I was so scared of what this was going to look like. And then when I saw it, I was like, oh, okay, great. I get it now. I'm now more on board how I met your mother than I even was before. Because now I'm understanding and getting stuff like this, this, you know, and it was. It was really fun. I remember Carter maybe showing me the. Hey, we Got the graphic in from. What was the name of the rocket?

[Craig Thomas]

It might have been Gunslinger. I. I wonder if it was one.

[Josh Radnor]

Of our early years.

[Craig Thomas]

They did a lot of effects on how much mudder and were really great.

[Greg Malins]

It was Gunslinger. And I was like, oh, that's fucking great.

[Craig Thomas]

That works perfectly. So it's hilarious that what they did there. And terrifying.

[Josh Radnor]

You know what really made me laugh. Probably my second biggest laugh of the episode was Janine bashing in the car with the. It was a baseball bat or crowbar or whatever.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

She was so funny.

[Craig Thomas]

It's shocking.

[Greg Malins]

It's shocking.

[Craig Thomas]

I think she was a stunt woman.

[Josh Radnor]

She was.

[Craig Thomas]

We had to cast a stunt woman because, like, it was really a hard thing to do.

[Greg Malins]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

She really did that. Yeah.

[Greg Malins]

That is a. That is a bad date. That's a bad date.

[Josh Radnor]

And her immediate. Her throwing it down and then just being like, you want to, you know, come up? Or whatever.

[Greg Malins]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

There's also something about.

That I really. That really amuses me about. Normally it's Barney throwing out the theories, you know, the lemon law and he's coining them. But for some reason on this one, Ted and Barney are absolutely in sync around Crazy Eyes. This feels like something they've discussed. Before they know it, they're speaking shorthand. Marshall doesn't. Because why would they have talked to him about. So they've got a. I just like their united front on that.

[Greg Malins]

That.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah, me too. Ted's not contradicting Barney or nay saying it. And I also like. I would an addendum to that is. I like that the women later have a quick one that's like, you know, with a guy, it's like jerk nails. If a guy has two nails that are too manicure and he's a jerk. Which seemed. Which is probably Barney, by the way.

[Greg Malins]

And probably true.

[Craig Thomas]

And probably true. Yeah.

[Greg Malins]

It was good.

[Craig Thomas]

The ladies had one.

[Josh Radnor]

Do you dislike Billy Joel, Greg?

[Greg Malins]

No. Nothing bothered me about that episode more than that.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Greg Malins]

Because Billy Joel was my first concert. Billy Joel got me through a lot of hard emotional times in my youth and some in my adulthood. And I loved everything he's ever done. I shook it. I rushed to stage and shook his hand.

[Craig Thomas]

Wow. And now your name's on this slanderous thing. I can't remember why we decided to kind of take the piss out of Billy Joel in this one. I like Billy Joel, too.

[Greg Malins]

It worked, I think. I think I wrote that joke of an. I also like music.

It was just a.

[Craig Thomas]

Is that on Friends 2? You son of A bitch.

[Josh Radnor]

Greg, did you watch the recent documentary on Billy Joel?

[Greg Malins]

Oh, yes, of course. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Fantastic.

[Craig Thomas]

He's great. Billy Joel, we love you. You're great.

[Greg Malins]

I've seen you. I've seen him like seven times, I gotta say.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, we talk a lot about Greg. Like, what about this show is aging incredibly well. And what is not more of it is aging well. We all seem to agree. But I loved what I think it was Nick Pomgarten, the music critic, when he said towards the end of the documentary that Billy Joel now singing those songs makes a lot more sense than when he sang them when he was younger because he was always singing as if he was an older person. He was singing about nostalgia. And there's something about seeing an older man sing them that it's just more. It tugs you. It just gets you more. It's like he makes more sense.

[Craig Thomas]

His oeuvre has aged really, really well. He was like 30 when he wrote Piano man or somewhere. He's way younger than you think. This jaded, kind of like he, he was at the beginning when he wrote that. It's. It's remarkable.

[Josh Radnor]

Jackson Brown wrote these days when he was 16 years old. Please don't confront me with my failures. I have not forgotten them. A 16 year old wrote that. I always think that's most astounding.

[Greg Malins]

I struck out in the third inning.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, exactly.

[Josh Radnor]

Exactly.

[Greg Malins]

Oh, oh, oh. There was a weird thing I remember about this episode is we had this joke that she remembered every word till we didn't start the fire. And there was a negotiation. Do you remember this, Craig?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Because we couldn't come anywhere near the melody we wrote in.

[Greg Malins]

And we wrote. We. We had, we had the last five words.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Greg Malins]

Because we didn't start the fire. She comes in and says the last five words. And he goes, yeah. Wow, you really didn't remember. And then we got from the lawyers, you can't five, two. You can do three. The last three words. We're like, okay. So we. This is before we had filmed anything. We were like, okay, okay, we'll put the last three words. And then it came back and go, you can't.

[Craig Thomas]

Three is too many.

[Greg Malins]

It's too. They're still saying it's. It's too close.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Greg Malins]

And then I forget what it was, but it was like, well, they can't stop us from saying again or anymore.

[Craig Thomas]

Isn't it anymore. I think it's the word anymore or something. Yeah.

[Greg Malins]

He doesn't own the word anymore.

[Craig Thomas]

No, I say that it's hilarious.

[Greg Malins]

And that's all we got.

[Craig Thomas]

All of a sudden that joke becomes $100,000 joke or something. So it is. There is a danger, but it's ridiculous.

[Josh Radnor]

This is another kind of just fact that I don't think people understand when they' sitting around watching an episode of television. If there's a proper noun that has to be cleared by legal. There is a whole team of people clearing that, Paying royalties, paying clearance, all this stuff. So if there was one Billy Joel song that I would throw under the bus, it would be that one.

[Craig Thomas]

Fair Love.

[Josh Radnor]

The rest.

[Craig Thomas]

It is a list of things that happened. I remember in the 90s, this very funny writer we worked with on Letterman, Rodney Rothman.

He went to some party where he had. I wasn't there, but everyone had to do a performance, like performance art piece. Everyone who came to the party to do performance art piece. And his piece was that he. And this was like 1997 or something. He played the entirety of We Didn't Start the Fire. And at the very end of the song, right at that last line that Miranda Baccaran says, he hits pause and updates it for the 90s. And I remember this joke for him telling for 25 years ago, his update just to cover the 90s was. Was CD ROMs, soccer moms. What the heck is going on?

That is somehow lodged in my brain as a joke. I wasn't even there for 25 years ago, but Rodney Rothman, very funny.

[Josh Radnor]

Wow. Shout out to Tom Lenk, who played Brian in the coffee shop. He was great. Another Buffy. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes. Another Buffy verse. And Morena Baccaran went on to be or was on at the time. I can't remember Firefly. So there's like a Joss Whedon verse happening in this with Tom Lenk, who was on Hilarious on Buffy. She's great. Yeah. I can't remember the timeline.

[Greg Malins]

I love her so much. How happy did you feel when she was in Deadpool and, you know, she's.

[Alec Lev]

Homeland and in the movie Elevation and.

[Greg Malins]

Yeah. Which I love her in Elevation.

[Craig Thomas]

She's great. Yeah. She's. She's had a great career.

[Greg Malins]

There was some Warner Brothers party, maybe the year after, something where Jenny and I hung out with her. There was something on the lot, a launch party or something. And she was there by herself for some of the show. And I just went up to her and I said, I think you're so great. I'm Greg. I wrote the Crazy Eyes episode of How She Goes. Oh, I want to pretend like she remembered me. But she didn't but we had a great time, like hanging out at that. This weird party where none of us.

[Josh Radnor]

Marina went to. She went to Juilliard. So just a shout out to theater trained actors who know how to like, roll with it. And do you know when you train to be an actor at a drama school, you are doing. You. You get very used to humiliating yourself. You get very used to being looked at, being picked apart, being, you know, doing insane things. And she was just so game and so wonderful. You know what really also made me laugh and forgive me just to keep coming back to Ted's stuff. But I loved we'll stop calling you Swirly. But instead we'll call you Jennifer. And for some reason, Jennifer, like again, the perfect negotiation.

[Greg Malins]

It's the formal.

[Craig Thomas]

It's not Jenny. Yeah. It's not Jen. It's not Jenny. Your wife. Is it a shout out to your wife, Greg?

[Greg Malins]

It probably was at the time.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

But she's no longer your wife.

[Greg Malins]

No, she is still my wife. Okay.

[Josh Radnor]

So we were talking earlier about his kids who were kids, proper children, when we were doing this show and are now. How old did you say?

[Greg Malins]

21 and 23. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

No longer children.

[Greg Malins]

Jack and Harry.

[Josh Radnor]

Jack and Harry. Yes. I remember thinking those were very sturdy names.

[Craig Thomas]

They're adults now.

[Josh Radnor]

Very royal names. Yeah. But you. One of them used to say my dad writes jokes when people would ask what he did for a living. Was that right?

[Greg Malins]

Works up at your joke.

[Josh Radnor]

He works up a joke. That's right.

[Craig Thomas]

He works up a joke.

[Josh Radnor]

And I remember you also telling me a story that you, your son was kind of quiet in his room and you just checked in and he's over his desk and you said, what are you doing? And he said, I'm writing jokes. And then you read them and then you told me you said they weren't very good.

[Craig Thomas]

He didn't know how to work up a gym.

[Greg Malins]

He didn't have the stuff.

[Josh Radnor]

He didn't have this stuff.

[Craig Thomas]

He was too. Too. He said. He said, my dad steals jokes from friends and puts them on How I Met yout Mother. That's what he does for a living. Yes.

[Josh Radnor]

Son of it.

[Greg Malins]

But then again, that same son said one of the greatest things I've ever heard in my life that he, he, he has no recollection of it. He was very, very young. And no clue of why he said what he said. But he did, which is I said, I love you, Harry. I hope you have a great sleep. I was saying goodnight and he goes. And I said, I love you. And he said, I love you. A thousand plus go kart 15.

And I was like, we had not been talking about Go Karts. Not reading book about go karts. Why 15? Why only a thousand and not a million? Maybe I did have to work to get to a million. I don't know.

[Josh Radnor]

A friend of mine told me, him and his daughter, when they. When he puts her to sleep, they. She's about 4 and they do I love you so much that. And they do the thing of how big. And one night she said, daddy, I don't love you. And he was like, why? Why not? And she goes, that's just the way life is.

[Greg Malins]

Wow, that's a good one. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

So you. Another thing that I really loved was the kind of like revisiting the stoop, like the front stoop where Marshall, you know, sat with that ring in the rain when Ted pulled up. And just the scene of his absolute, you know, annihilation and heartbreak. And revisiting like that, to me is like a metaphor for How I Met yout Mother. Is like. You can almost like re. Enchant a place or revisit a time or a place. And you can see it from a different perspective or a different angle. And it can become your. Your friend again rather than your foe, I suppose. Right?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I love that.

[Greg Malins]

Re.

[Craig Thomas]

Enchant a place. Yeah. He took back the stoop. They took back the stoop.

[Greg Malins]

I loved the Big. Christened it the big hard Ted hug. Jumping in for that big three way hug.

[Craig Thomas]

The scene of the crime became the scene of the reunion. It's amazing.

[Josh Radnor]

It did feel a little bit like all is right with the world. Marshall and Lily are back together again. And now we can. We can just reassume our rightful places.

[Greg Malins]

And then they go to the bar and we, the audience, have forgotten just as much as they have that they left Crazy Eyes alone in the apartment. Because even as an audience member, you're like, oh, shit, that's right.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Kind of deserve to have their place trash.

[Josh Radnor]

And the true psychotic, the way she played it just like so pleasant, was like, pretty terrifying, actually.

[Greg Malins]

It was. It was great. And her keys were right in front of her.

[Josh Radnor]

There was something kind of. There was a great switcheroo of like, oh, she is crazy. And then it's like, no, she's not. And then at the end, yes, she is. You know, like you went on a real journey with her.

[Craig Thomas]

So many back and forth, so many up and backs with that.

[Greg Malins]

Well, what it was is. It's crazy as a real and true.

[Craig Thomas]

That's right, Greg. We love you 1000 plus go kart 15. You know what? We love you 1000 plus go kart 16. I'm going to say we love you more than your own 16.

[Josh Radnor]

So, so great to see you and come back, Come back anytime. We'll. We'll have you back on.

[Craig Thomas]

There's some more classics. You got to come. We'll, we'll get you back for another later one.

[Greg Malins]

I would love to. I would love to. There's a couple more.

[Craig Thomas]

What a fucking great first episode to have written. Thank you for like wanting this one and chasing this one. You wanted to get Marshall and Lily back together and you did it. And it's. It's an all timer. Thanks, buddy.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, thanks, Greg.

[Greg Malins]

Thank you, guys.

[Josh Radnor]

Man, what a treat to have Greg Maylands on the show.

[Greg Malins]

I love that.

[Craig Thomas]

Always a delight. One of the greats.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. There was something so nice about how great the writers were. I mean, there was not any time, you know. Cause the writers would often on their own episode, they'd be on the set, you know, they'd be the ones kind of down there. And every week was like a new person you were delighted to see.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, it was a great group. And Greg. One of Greg's superpowers too. I should have said this while he was on, is he kept everyone calm. Do you know what I mean?

[Josh Radnor]

No, I was gonna say this.

[Craig Thomas]

He has a calming energy.

[Josh Radnor]

He's not an excitable personality.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radnor]

And he, he had the especially, like navigating, like network and studio. Like, he never broke a sweat.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Like, he just seemed like, we're gonna figure this out.

[Craig Thomas]

He was really good at that. We'd have him on calls because it was like, Greg, Greg seems like the adult in the room. He talks very calmly. We're crazy and young. We don't know what we're doing.

[Josh Radnor]

But he's also got a little bit of that. We were talking about with Cranston about the I can't believe they're paying me. This is how I make my living and pay my mortgage. Greg always had a little impish glint in his eye of like, I can't believe this is our career.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. Well, that was fantastic. Greg, we'll have you back on. We just had so much fun talking to you. And yeah, we're. Alec, what do you have for us to close out this episode?

[Alec Lev]

Well, you know, we get our questions from the Internet and actually we've been getting some great ones from one of our good friends. But we're going to go and give her, I believe, her third question, because it is only fitting that our one question of the week today will come from the great swirly memes.

[Craig Thomas]

Swirly memes on brand on point. Let's do it.

[Alec Lev]

Absolutely. Okay, here we go. Swirly meme says phone call prank radio prank name tag on the back. The great origin of teasing old swirls back in 2006. Fast forward to today, and they'd probably be making memes about swirling. Ahem. I'd argue that since the beginning of humanity, people have loved uniting over ridiculous situations with a bit of schadenfreude. The ways we do it may have changed, but the core of why hasn't. What do you think is so timeless about him's humor that it still makes people laugh and relate 20 years later and probably beyond, with courtesy from Swarthy Memes.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, Craig there, I wish I had it, and maybe I'll pull it up, but my friend Amy sent a bunch of us a meme that. That said, my friend Dave in college came back one time from a break, and he was talking a little too excitedly about barbecuing hamburgers. So for the rest of college, his name was Burgers.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God. Dude.

[Josh Radnor]

He just displayed, like, a little too much passion about something. So he was called Burgers. And they were like, be careful out there, kids.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God, it's so funny. The hymn writers room had one of these one time. Chris Harris was really just slightly excited to get the cornbread from this barbecue place that delivered regularly to Ham at yout Mother. And, like, he was just, like, kind of excited and maybe asked a question about it. And he was called Kornbread for like, half a decade after that.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, also out of the writer's room, Chris Harris is the one you would want to want.

[Craig Thomas]

He just. Cornbread Harris.

[Josh Radnor]

Cornbread Harris. But he also can take a joke.

[Craig Thomas]

Better than anyone else.

[Josh Radnor]

So you kind of are like, well, we should probably. This guy's not gonna get, like, despondent over this. He can.

[Craig Thomas]

He got that the pure beauty of it was the same thing as your friend. He wasn't that excited. He was just a little bit excited. It was almost built. It was built on nothing. It was built on sand. And then. Yet it lasted.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, I think what Swarthy means is. Pointing to is you guys were very good at finding some of this stuff. You know, some of the Gen X references or whatever. You might. In a hundred years. You're gonna need footnotes to understand some of that. But this one is Like a classic old timey. The wrong name was written and it is suddenly his name. And it's gonna stick and we're gonna come up with every variation of it and we're just gonna roast him.

[Craig Thomas]

Do you know what it is? It's Dr. Seuss. It's just like playing with silly words. It's like children's books. It really is timeless. That's what.

[Greg Malins]

But.

[Craig Thomas]

Right. That's the only timeless things are kids books, really.

[Josh Radnor]

And it was. In some ways, there was delight in needling Barney. But also it's a fun word to say. Swarley is pleasing in the kind of like, what's that? Neil Simon, like, had, you know, the thing of, like, funny syllables. Like, what. What words are funny? I think comedians and writers are always trying to. But Swarley is pleasing. It's fun to say. And you almost get the feeling like, like, Ted and the gang were like, let's say this as many times as we can.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, very much.

[Josh Radnor]

But the added bonus that it's going to drive this guy serious.

[Craig Thomas]

Rob Greenberg is a big, funny word guy.

[Josh Radnor]

He.

[Craig Thomas]

He said he misnames things, so that's why he was good at this. But he also, he has a long list of comedy words. And sometimes, just when the writers room would be stuck, he'd just be like, can't we work in the word chimichanga?

Yes. Rob was also a good Sophia. He'd pitch some chimichanga.

[Advertiser]

Yes.

[Craig Thomas]

Like, you can't self. Yes. You can't self. Yes. But he would self. Yes.

[Josh Radnor]

That is so cool.

[Craig Thomas]

God bless him.

[Josh Radnor]

We love you, Rob.

[Craig Thomas]

We're having him on next.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, I think we kind of answered swirly meme.

[Craig Thomas]

I think we did. I think it's. It's because it comes from love. Even these little stupid stories we're telling are people we love. And that's why that's the timeless piece, I think.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. Well, thanks for being with us. We had such a fun time talking about this episode, and we'll see you next time. I am guilty. Please acquit me. All sins are forgiven in New York City.

[Alec Lev]

How we made your mother is hosted and executive produced by Josh Radner and Craig Thomas and is presented and distributed by the Office Ladies Network and Odyssey. This episode is also executive produced by Jennifer Fisher and Angela Kinsey. The show is produced and edited by me, Alec Lev, and our co producer is Doug Matica. Our audio producer and mixer is Alex Reeves at Point of Blue Studios. Our digital content producer, AKA Gen Z master, is Emily Blumberg. Artwork by John Morrow. Please follow, rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or your podcast player of choice. It really does help the show. Our theme song is New York City by our own Josh Radner, with additional music by Craig Thomas and Andrew Majewski. Special thanks to Lola Kennedy and Elliot Connors. Visit how we madeyourmother.com to learn more and click on the contact page to send us an email or a voice message. Your stories and questions are an important part of the show. Subscribe to Josh Radner's Muse letter on Substack and check out his music and everything [e-mail] Order Craig Thomas Debut novel that's Not How It Happened, wherever books are sold, and check out his other published [e-mail] and you can subscribe to my own Dead Father's Society, also on Substack to learn more about how you make a difference. This show's ongoing campaign to raise raise money for congenital pediatric heart disease research. Check out the Make a Difference tab at the top of our website. People will in fact dance.

[Greg Malins]

The real.

[Josh Radnor]

Question it just hit me. Am I in love with you or.

[Craig Thomas]

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[Alec Lev]

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[Craig Thomas]

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[Craig Thomas]

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