How We Met Our Match | S1E7 "Matchmaker"

Summary

How We Made Your Mother: Episode Summary – "Matchmaker" (S1E7)

Release Date: May 5, 2025

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Introduction

In the seventh episode of the first season of How We Made Your Mother, hosts Josh Radnor and Craig Thomas delve deep into the intricacies of the How I Met Your Mother (HIMYM) episode titled "Matchmaker." This episode explores the blend of humor, heartfelt moments, and the unique narrative structure that has made HIMYM a beloved sitcom in pop culture.

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Episode Overview: "Matchmaker"

Plot Summary

The episode centers around Ted Mosby’s quest to find his soulmate with the assistance of a professional matchmaker, Cameron Manheim, portrayed by the talented Cameron Manheim herself. Claiming a 100% success rate, Cameron aims to scientifically pair Ted with his perfect match. Concurrently, Marshall and Lily deal with the enigmatic "cockamouse," a cryptozoological creature lurking in their apartment, adding a layer of quirky mystery to the storyline.

Themes: Math vs. Magic in Finding Love

A central theme in "Matchmaker" is the juxtaposition of mathematics and fate in the pursuit of love. Ted’s reliance on Cameron's data-driven approach contrasts with the show's recurring motif of serendipity and magical moments, such as Ted’s enduring belief in the magic of finding "the one."

Notable Quote:

Josh Radnor (02:18): “It’s a recurrent theme. It’s basically, people will dance. It’s like, look, I don’t sit around and think about my wedding.”

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The Cockamouse Phenomenon

Concept and Fan Reaction

The "cockamouse," a fictional creature combining characteristics of a cockroach and a mouse, became an unexpected fan favorite. Its mysterious presence in Marshall and Lily’s apartment provided both comedic relief and a symbol of the unknown elements in life and relationships.

Notable Quote:

Craig Thomas (04:40): “It is another episode about a show about a show about a show about a show or something. But it's great.”

Character Reflections: Marshall and Lily

Marshall’s fascination with mythical creatures like the cockamouse highlights his whimsical and curious nature, while Lily’s reactions add depth to their relationship dynamics. The creature serves as a metaphor for the unpredictable challenges in relationships and life.

Notable Quote:

Josh Radnor (10:06): “It feels like this is like a mythical creature. Like a centaur, a satyr.”

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Cultural Context: Pre-Dating Apps Era

Relevance Today

"Matchmaker" is set in a time before the widespread use of dating apps, reflecting an era where finding love relied more on organic interactions and professional matchmaking. This backdrop provides a nostalgic lens for modern listeners who navigate love through technology-driven platforms.

Notable Quote:

Craig Thomas (17:23): “She claims to have 100% success rate in matching up people.”

Josh and Craig discuss how the traditional methods depicted in the episode resonate with current trends where some individuals are seeking to return to more personal and less algorithm-driven approaches to dating.

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Behind the Scenes Insights

Writing and Production Notes

Written by Chris Marcel and Sam Johnson, "Matchmaker" intertwines Ted’s romantic endeavors with the humorous subplot of the cockamouse. The episode showcases the writers' ability to balance serialized storytelling within a sitcom framework, a feature that later becomes a hallmark of HIMYM.

Notable Quote:

Josh Radnor (04:46): “Writers in writers room rooms pitch ideas, and they go into different episodes.”

Guest Actors and Contributions

Cameron Manheim’s portrayal of Cameron the Matchmaker adds authenticity and charm to the episode. Her character’s believable performance underscores the episode’s exploration of love through both scientific and magical lenses.

Notable Quote:

Craig Thomas (19:06): “That's the moment she seems legitimate to Ted.”

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Personal Reflections

Hosts’ Personal Stories Related to the Episode

Josh Radnor and Craig Thomas share personal anecdotes that intertwine with the episode's themes. Josh recounts his interactions with influential figures like Cameron Manheim during his time at NYU, highlighting the real-life inspirations behind the show’s fictional elements.

Notable Quote:

Josh Radnor (31:25): “Her whole thing was about strategizing how to not lose your mind in those stretches of unemployment.”

Integration of Real-Life Experiences

The discussion extends to how the show’s elements, such as the matchmaker and mythical creatures, mirror the hosts’ own journeys in the entertainment industry, emphasizing the blend of reality and fiction that makes HIMYM relatable.

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Listener Engagement: Letters from Fans

The episode features heartfelt messages from listeners, such as Joel’s story of meeting his wife inspired by the show. These narratives underscore the profound impact HIMYM has had on its audience, fostering connections and inspiring real-life romances.

Notable Quote:

Joel's Letter (56:59): “This show still means as much to me as it did when I first watched, and I doubt that feeling will ever go away.”

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Conclusion and Wrap-Up

"Matchmaker" exemplifies the enduring appeal of HIMYM through its clever narrative structure, relatable themes, and memorable characters. Josh Radnor and Craig Thomas adeptly analyze how the episode balances humor with emotional depth, contributing to the show's lasting legacy. Their reflections not only honor the creative process behind HIMYM but also celebrate its meaningful connection with fans worldwide.

Notable Quote:

Craig Thomas (59:19): “We just want to give a shout out and give Pam Freeman a shout out for how she shot this episode.”

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Final Thoughts

How We Made Your Mother continues to honor the spirit of HIMYM by dissecting each episode with enthusiasm and insight. "Matchmaker" stands out as a testament to the show's ability to blend humor, emotion, and thoughtful commentary on the complexities of love and friendship.

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End of Summary

Transcript

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[Craig Thomas]

Foreign.

[Becky]

This is Becky from Kansas. How I Met your Mother premiered my freshman year in high school and I loved it from the start. I was at that funny age where you're old enough to start to have a life, but too young to drive. So I spent a lot of time with the tv, especially network sitcoms. I've always loved sitcoms. What I love about How I Met your Mother was that it was this neat blend of the attractive 20 somethings from friends, but with that observational writing that matched the show about nothing that is Seinfeld. It's so clever and charming and it was a rom com you could tune into every Monday night. And I was now at an age where I wasn't just watching because my parents were watching, this one felt like my show. Well, fast forward to now. My love for sitcoms remains, but I also love podcasts. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who when I consume media, be it a book or a movie or a podcast, I want to talk about it. So I've taken on a hobby of participating in and running Facebook fan groups for podcasts that I listen to. If you're interested in joining, search Facebook for How We Made youe Mother fan group or type in your browser facebook.com hwmymfans we'll discuss episodes of the show on Sundays before the recap drops. We'll discuss the podcast episodes when they're released, and it's a place to share any other How I Met yout Mother related content with fellow fans who will understand your references and appreciate what you're sharing. My question to Josh Craig and Alec is. What are we calling whom? Yam fans. Do we have a nickname? Thanks so much, guys. Bye.

[Josh Radnor]

I'm alone. What a pity I won't be soon in New York City when I see you. Please permit me to tell you everything in New York City. Well, hello. Welcome to How We Made youe Mother. I'm Josh Radner. I'm joined, as ever, by Craig Thomas. Hello, Craig.

[Craig Thomas]

Hey, Josh. Hey, Josh. We're happy to be here.

[Josh Radnor]

Craig co created How I Met yout Mother with Carter Bayes, and I played Ted Mosby for nine seasons on that show. We're rewatching them all. We're talking about it from this vantage point of 20 years on. 11 years on whatever number we're. We're calling it. We love that share from. Was it Becky from Kansas? Yeah, we love that share do. What are we calling Whim Yim fans?

[Craig Thomas]

I mean, Whim Yimmers, I guess would.

[Josh Radnor]

Be the just swimmers. Let's give it. Let's give it some thought, Becky. But if you think about it, yeah, it's very meta. You know, we're commenting on this thing we made, and now they're having a group commenting on this thing we made. About this thing we made.

[Craig Thomas]

I know, and I felt a little threatened by it. I was like, should we cease and desist Becky? No. She seems nice.

[Josh Radnor]

No, let it step on our market share. No. I love if people would get to know.

[Craig Thomas]

It's the best. It's a complete joke. I love that she's doing that. Please do that. That's the best.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

We are honored. It's a show about a show about a show about a show or something. But it's great.

[Alec Lev]

And by the way, in case you didn't quite hear her audio clearly enough, if you're listening to this on audio On Facebook, that's facebook.comhwmym Fans. Qum Fans is the. Is the Facebook group. Join in there. They've just gotten it started, so let's flood them with. With some new.

[Josh Radnor]

Some new.

[Craig Thomas]

I'm getting on there.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. So, yeah, it was so nice to hear also about that tender age of 14. I remember that. Well, you know, where you're, you know, you want to get somewhere, you're walking. So you don't have a car. You don't have that kind of teenage freedom yet. But you do have the freedom to. To watch shows and get a glimpse into what it like to be a little more adult and what might be awaiting you this week. Craig, we're talking about episode seven from season one called the Matchmaker. Is that right?

[Craig Thomas]

That's correct. And our lovely producer Alec Lev is going to give us something about it.

[Josh Radnor]

Yes.

[Alec Lev]

So this was written by Chris Marcel and Sam Johnson and it first aired on November 7, 2005.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh my God. It's a long time ago. That is a long time ago. Let me try to synopsize this very quickly. I'm in capable of doing that. I have to pitch the entire emotional through line is basically what I've discovered about myself. But yes, this is another episode about Ted out there trying to figure out how is he going to find the one. And he enlists the help of this matchmaker woman who was featured on Robin's newscast. Robin's little feature story. And she has 100% success rate. And Ted thinks this might be the way to find the one. And the very epic B story, kind of a coa in its way. This is maybe arguably the A story retrospectively has in terms of how much you remember, it's become the A story. History has proven it to be. The A story is the story of the cockamouse, the mysterious cryptozoological wonder that is loose in Marshall and Lily's apartment and in Ted's apartment too. But it is Marshall and Lily's B story slash now A story. And the two come together thematically at the end of those two storylines. We'll get there.

[Josh Radnor]

The cockamouse has certainly lived on in How I Met yout Mother, Laurie. I think it's joined the pantheon of blue French horns and yellow umbrellas. Right, the cockamas.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And there's like little people of fans design the cockamous and send us drawings of their imaginings of it the way Marshall did on the. In the bar. And yeah, it's a. It became an all timer, you know.

[Josh Radnor]

I have a question. I. One of my favorite parts of this episode is Marshall and Lily's lecture to people in the bar about the, the. The. I don't know what to call it. Like the taxonomy. What do you. What do you call that?

[Craig Thomas]

Like the physiology. The taxonomy. I know what you're getting.

[Josh Radnor]

I know you know what I mean?

[Craig Thomas]

Like, I don't have it either.

[Josh Radnor]

And also that Marshall is suddenly an expert in this weird creature so deadly.

[Craig Thomas]

And he's being taken seriously by everyone in the bar.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

People are really into it, but so funny.

[Josh Radnor]

I love. I'd love to get a little deeper into where did Marshall's love of ghosts, aliens, Bigfoot, Cockamous is like, where does that come from. And I think I know the answer, but I want you to tell us. I want you to confess. Where does that come from?

[Craig Thomas]

100% me. I say it proudly and loudly. If I'm flipping channels and there's a UFO documentary on, that's.

[Josh Radnor]

You're not going anywhere.

[Craig Thomas]

I'm not going anywhere. We will cancel podcast records for that. If I stumble upon one.

[Josh Radnor]

Stonehenge.

[Craig Thomas]

Stonehenge, Bigfoot, the Lapis monster, Nessie, all of it. I love it so much. And I get genuinely furious when I find that people are too dismissive of aliens, which at one point in this episode, Marshall experiences. You see that sort of rage across his face. What are you talking about? You don't believe? I get. I think it is the most arrogant thing in the world to dismiss the possibility that there are. That there is alien life in the universe. As if you know. As if you know everything in the universe and can count. I really. I. And sometimes really smart people, smart scientists will rule out aliens or make them sound incredibly unlikely. And then I'm furious at them. Like, I think, yeah. Even though they know more than me. I'm like, you don't know that, though. You don't know that for sure. I will defend aliens to my dying breath.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, also will happen. It feels like the cockamouse is. Is almost like a mythical creature. Like a centaur, a satyr. Right. Like, it's like a. It's a combination of these two things that becomes something greater and weirder.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, totally. And I will say is, this is based on a true story. Courtney Kang, one of our writers. She was already on the pod, a few back for Return of the Shirt, her first episode. Writers in writers room rooms pitch ideas, and they go into different episodes. Cockamouse is her life story, but wound up in this other script that she did not write because, again, that's writer's rooms. But she was living in New York for a summer. She's not from New York, but she lived there, I think, after college or during college. And she and a couple of roommates saw something that they. Some of them thought was rodent and some of them thought was cockroach. And they had these debates about it. I think it was before everyone had a camera on their phone because it was like the early 2000s or something. So there's no proof. Fine. Fine. There's no proof. I hear the haters out there and the doubters, but it's all real. Courtney swears this happened, and she and those friends, I think, spent years debating what was that. And they decided it really had characteristics in the both. And so that part was real. Everything else in the episode invented, except the most invented.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, you don't have to live in New York City. One of the great things about How I Met yout Mother, you did not have to live in New York City to love it and appreciate it. You could live anywhere. But if you've spent time in big cities, if you've rented apartments, if you've, you know, stroll the streets, I mean, you know, living in a big city, you are confronted with strange, mythical creatures in your apartment.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Cockroaches, rodents. You know, it's. There's something just very funny about honoring that aspect of city living.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And this. This could have been a B story in literally any episode. Like, it was. It was just. But it was. It was great. And I loved. This is another thing that we could only do because we were a three. We took three days to shoot the show without an audience. You know, shots from the point of view of the cockamouse. Right.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, I love it so much. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, and also, one of my. One of my favorite bits is, is when they throw the cockamous out the window, it flies. And they feel. They almost feel. They almost admire it. Right. Like it's this beautiful creature that's finally set free.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Turns around, Jason says. Jason says line like, I'll miss this private war of ours. Such a weird line. Because he admires it because he wants to believe in the cockamas as much as it's terrifying to have the cockamas in your house.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

It's. It. It is Christmas morning to Marshall on some level, too, because it just proves that the universe is mysterious and awesome. Which is one of my favorite Marshalls.

[Josh Radnor]

And again, not to. This is. This is going to be. This is what? Like, if we were in a college class. I know I met your mother, but there's something about it as a. As a kind of metaphor for, like, you know, shadowy things lurk around. Like, it's like our shadow or our, you know, dark kind of something that's just, like, there. And we kind of have to coexist with it.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

But also it got to highlight. Well, it was very character revealing because it got to highlight Marshall's excitement. I mean, he was still scared of the cockamouse, but he was thrilled. Right? He was thrilled by this kind of. And Lily was alternately scared. But I think she also. It was a very joint project. Right.

[Craig Thomas]

It was. I love how on board she was. She was Just like serious.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, this is serious. We have to deal with this. And Robin is the. All the scientists who don't believe in aliens that annoy you. You know, she was the.

[Craig Thomas]

She's the skeptic.

[Josh Radnor]

She's the skeptic until she sees it with her own eye holes.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, she was. She was the molder or the Scully. She was the Scully.

[Josh Radnor]

Right. Mind also was. This is the debut of mind hole. It's going to blow. Your mind hole doesn't mind. I think that was a Chris and Phil, right?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, that's a Chris and Philism for sure. I would almost guarantee that.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. I also remember when a couple times we had birthdays on the set and Phil Lord would always try to get people to chant face in the cake. Face in the cake. And I wrote you this little ditty to sing to you in New York City. We'll be right back. Hey, Craig.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, Josh?

[Josh Radnor]

We both got dogs during the pandemic. Is that right?

[Craig Thomas]

We did. We grew beards and we got dogs. We're nothing but walking cliches, you and I.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, also, I've noticed something about the two of us, in addition to having dogs and having beards.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

We don't. We don't throw on a suit, much to Barney's chagrin.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Unless we really have to.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

I would say we, We. We lean casual.

[Craig Thomas]

Would you say lean casual. You want to be casual and comfortable. We both have these dogs to walk every day, but you want to look a little bit cool and you want to be comfortable. It's a hard needle to thread.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. It's New York City. You gotta. You gotta turn it out for the people.

[Craig Thomas]

And you know what else it does a lot in New York City is it rains a lot.

[Josh Radnor]

Oh, yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

We are the lucky beneficiaries of Vessi sending us some wonderful shoes and rain jackets to try out. And I will say that I just walked my dog in my new Vessi's. Thank you, Vessi this morning. And they are very, very comfortable. Easy to slip on, like, just. I'm so lazy. I just want to be able to slip it on. Just goes right on.

[Josh Radnor]

Perfect dog walking shoes, right?

[Craig Thomas]

Perfect dog walking shoes. You just want to get going and just be out the door and not belabor the point. Really comfortable. My daughter told me they look cool, which was a good sign. And I walked her to school and then walked the dog in these vessis, they feel kind of like almost slipper like. They're very comfortable on your foot and they're waterproof.

[Josh Radnor]

Is that true? Like, you can see, you can walk right through a puddle.

[Craig Thomas]

I know I'm gonna go jump into puddles like I'm a child again. I feel like a child again when I'm wearing them.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, I also, I tried on my Vessi. They feel great. They look great. But I also, having lived in LA for so many years and now back on the East Coast, I forget it rains here. Like, you need a rain jacket. You need a proper rain jacket.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And they sent a great, very sleek black rain jacket that I've worn a couple times. Kept me dry. Very stylish. I'm really digging it. So thanks to the folks at Vessi for sending that on. Your new everyday favorite, Vessi is waterproof, comfy, and ready for real life. Grab your pair at vessi.com/your mother to stay comfortable and get an instant 15% off your first purchase at checkout. Embrace every journey, rain or shine, with Vessi. How We Made youe Mother is sponsored by BetterHelp. So, Craig, my wife Jordana and I, for ever since we've, we've been together as we're falling to sleep, we. We each offered three to five things we're grateful for, which is a really nice way to end the day.

[Craig Thomas]

That's great.

[Josh Radnor]

And with, with some gratitude. And I saw Adam Grant do this little video where he said, even more powerful than gratitude lists are contribution lists. Or you say, these are the ways I helped, or this is how I helped someone. Or this is how I contributed today. So we do a couple gratitude and then one or two contributing things. And sometimes I really have to search for the contribution. If I'm, if I'm just a lazy writer all day, you know, I have to go, how did I contribute? Did I hold a door, door open for anyone? But I asked Jordana, and she's, you know, she's a therapist. She's a. She's a psychologist. So she could just say, well, yeah, I talked to people about their problems and their issues for six hours today. What did you do?

[Craig Thomas]

You're like, I wrote something that might help someone three years from now when the movie's made or whatever.

[Josh Radnor]

I say, hey, I got you that package downstairs that was delivered while you.

[Craig Thomas]

Were helping all those other people. Yeah, I got that package.

[Josh Radnor]

But she has it baked into her life. She has this contribution, certain aspect of life baked into her profession, which is so super cool.

[Craig Thomas]

It is cool.

[Josh Radnor]

And, you know, we're both a big. We're both big fans of therapy.

[Craig Thomas]

I do it every week. I Do it on Monday. It starts my week off right. Talk about ending the day right. That starts my week off right. Think about your favorite leaders, mentors, people you look up to. They don't have all the answers, but what they do have is that they know when to ask questions or seek support from their community.

[Josh Radnor]

BetterHelp is fully online. Making therapy online affordable and convenient. Serving over 5 million people worldwide.

[Craig Thomas]

Access a diverse network of more than 30,000 credentialed therapists with a wide range of specialties. Easily switch therapists anytime at no extra cost.

[Josh Radnor]

Build your support system with better help. Visit betterhelp.com your mother to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp h lp.com your mother. And now back to the show. But there's also another storyline going on, which is this matchmaker that Rob interviews. Cameron Manheim, great, incredible actor and lovely person. Hi, Cameron. If you're listening, she plays the matchmaker who she claims to have 100% success rate in matching up people.

[Craig Thomas]

Now, Josh, to ask you this, she does make that claim. Is this the moment? Is this the most pronounced version of this moment where watching this show makes you feel incredibly old? Because this is so only a storyline that would happen prior to dating apps, prior to smartphones. The idea of going to a matchmaker. We might as well be doing Fiddler on the Roof. Here is how old this freaking thing feels.

[Josh Radnor]

It's so old. But everything old is new again because people are getting off the apps and they're going to matchmakers again.

[Craig Thomas]

Well, that's that. I was thinking of that, too. I didn't want to say that because it seems like, defensive, like we're still relevant, but I guess it's a profession that will always exist.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, you know, sometimes you, you just have to look at things that have been around for a really long time and question, well, why, why has this been around for a while? You know what I mean? Like, if something is a perennially recurrent and, and, and every culture, I would argue most cultures has some version of a yenta or a matchmaker. Right?

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radnor]

And I think it's, It' like this is, it's almost like this is too big a decision to leave to the people who it's going to affect the most. You know, like, we've got to, we. I, I don't know that anyone is any happier because we're allowed to choose our partners ourselves. You know, and maybe that's, that's like an incredibly traditional idea. But the, the, the, you know, cultures that have More arranged marriages or. Or the family or community is more involved in the selection of the partner. People seem to think that works pretty well. I'm not advocating for that. I'm just saying, you know, I'm glad I got to choose my spouse and everything, but it's. There's. There's a. It's. It's useful to interrogate. Why? And also why Ted would be attracted to the great idea of a matchmaker.

[Craig Thomas]

I love that scene. I like a bunch of how you played those scenes with her. You guys were good together, you and Cameron. The scene where you start off so skeptical, and she just absolutely breaks you down and just in 30 seconds.

[Josh Radnor]

The calculator scene is excellent.

[Craig Thomas]

It's so good.

[Josh Radnor]

It's excellent writing, too.

[Craig Thomas]

Essentially, she's out tedding Ted, right? Because she's saying, you can plan this, you can construct this. And once she sells him on that, his architect brain just believes it. Because I think that's what he wants to think. It's like, deep down, he's been actually, since the pilot, been trying to get a little bit away from that. It's Robin. And then he gets humbled. It's not Robin. And this is sort of like watching him fall off the lake. Planner bandwidth. The planner, like, he sort of relapses into planner addiction.

[Josh Radnor]

It's a recurring theme. It's basically, people will dance. It's like, look, I don't sit around and think about my wedding. And then he's got this incredible. But it's also this thing of, like, he attempts to be casual Ted. He's always like, there's plenty of fish in the sea, right? And then when she crunches the numbers and she says, no, there's eight. There's eight fish in the sea, and you're not gonna find them without me. I mean, she's a brilliant saleswoman, but. Yeah, But I also think it's funny. When I was watching it, I was like, so this guy's 27. He's got a legitimate career. He's, like, educated. He's clearly, like, making some money and opportunity to make more. Why did you. Why did he. Why was she able to convince him there was only eight women in New York City for him? Like, it was a funny sale that he. He bought completely.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I. I guess her sale is not eight women that you could hook up with. He could hook up with women, but eight women. Only those eight could make you happy. Which is, of course, insane, but totally presses, like, every button in Ted's neuroses. And that's why it works.

[Josh Radnor]

I have to recommend something this American Life. We should list this in the show notes. It's called Magic or Meth. It's a great episode of radio. What is it about? It's basically like the question of in finding love, do we rely on magic? Do we rely on fate and serendipity and just our hearts will be drawn magnetically together? Or do we, you know, as Cameron does, do we crunch the numbers? Do we. You know, there's a woman who said, I'm only going to date men who have, you know. She actually narrowed her options to get more kind of statistically specific about what she was looking for. You know, I heard a. I read an article in the Times magazine a while back and it was a. I think it was about a woman who maybe had a dating. I think it was. She had a dating site. But her whole thing was when people say you need to. Oh, the thing she said, how do you find a needle in a haystack, right? Like how do you find that person? And her answer was, you burn the haystack down until the needle is left, right? And her whole thing was you, you say no. People always say, oh, oh, you gotta be. You gotta broaden your. What you're looking for. And she said, no, get hyper specific about what you're looking for. That's actually what you need to do. So she said, you know, if there were men who were in their early 50s, saying maybe I'd want children someday. She was like, goodbye. You know, that's not. We're not going to be dealing with that, right. So I think that one of the things this episode is dealing with is magic or math. It's kind of like the fundamental question of the, of that story with Ted and the matchmaker.

[Craig Thomas]

And it's funny, there's also magic in the episode via the flying cockamouse. So there literally is somehow the combination of these incredibly far fetched things and these incredibly scientific things. And that is the dovetail thing. I like that Ted sort of says if a mouse and if a rat and a cockroach can find love, a rodent and a cockroach. There is some nice connective tissue there. It's sort of like it's always going to be something insane and unlikely. It cannot be scienced out. Ted's willing to let her keep trying as long as she does it for free. But in the end, sort of like he's. I love Ted comforting her. She's bereft and distraught and she's about to like she's about to give up all hope and Ted is comforting her, which I love Ted for.

[Josh Radnor]

He's ultimately a magic guy who is very persuadable. Like, you can freak him out with stats, but he's ultimately a guy who believes in magic. And. Yeah, and there was something I found very moving. And I remember liking how you guys wrote this. But there was something moving to me about his pep talk to the matchmaker and his insistence that he was going to be okay even though she was kind of prophesying doom for him. He was like, that's not going to be my story. You know, he really.

[Craig Thomas]

I really liked that too. I really liked because Ted. I thought Ted was very confident and sexy in that scene. He was very like. Same thing in the Slutty Pumpkin where Barney keeps trying to get him to go to the Victoria's Secret party. And he keeps on saying, I'm staying here. Ted is actually not super neurotic and all over the place in a lot of these early episodes. He's actually very confident at times. You know what I mean? Especially after the pilot and Purple Giraffe. He's sort of keeping the faith as everyone else is going crazy. He acts a little crazy in this episode. He does some sort of shady things, try to like, you know, science out what is something magical. You can't win magic by science, I guess, in the end. But he gets so addicted to this idea that there's within this woman's data. Is the answer that he does something absolutely psycho.

[Alec Lev]

But yes, the episode is this American Life episode 766, Math or Magic. And we can put a link to it in the show notes.

[Josh Radnor]

Ted is not afflicted by something that afflicted me in my dating life, which was this kind of addiction to options. Right? Like, like I, I, I wanted to meet all the people, you know, I wanted to date. Whoever I was attract. Like, he is so all in on who's in front of him. And he doesn't seem plagued by maybe this is not the right person for me. Like, it's so funny to me how certain he was that this dermatologist because of the math. Like, one of my favorite moments is like, she tells him he has a pre cancerous mole and he's just like. And like, he's so, like, it doesn't matter. He's there to get her out.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes. Let's get these formalities out of the way.

[Josh Radnor]

I know why you really called me back, you know. Beth Leakey. Hi, Beth. If you're listening, Beth played The dermatologist. And she was excellent. Really funny. I thought she got the tone of that just right. You know, I also love the Summer Breeze Runner is really funny.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God. That was very funny. The way you just desperately start to.

[Josh Radnor]

Try to sing that again as if that's gonna work.

[Craig Thomas]

That was really funny.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. I mean, I think you guys let up on some of the Ted, you know, obsession with finding the right person. I think it was a first season note that you hit maybe every other episode or every, you know, just to remind her, okay, this is about watching a guy lost in New York City looking to meet a woman that he can have a family with and spend his life with. But ultimately it was a. You know, the area of the arena of concern got broadened. But especially in these first episodes, you really come back to this thing of, like, this is a guy who wants to meet someone.

[Alec Lev]

It was occurring to me that on the other, like, great dating shows, the Friends and Seinfeld, even back to Cheers, that, like, the. The stakes of each date were always fairly low. You know, would. Would Joey date that girl and would it work out? Would Sam date that girl and would it work out? And in these first seven episodes, you just take the level of difficulty really high right away.

[Craig Thomas]

It's.

[Alec Lev]

Will his entire life change because of this one moment here?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, but I like Joshua. Like, in series, you can't have. You can't play that card every time. And the mania of Ted, even in this one is sort of like we couldn't sustain that. We had to hit some pockets where Ted was just dating women and not everything was the most important thing. But I think you're right, Josh. I think we were just trying to make. This was the seventh episode, right? Seventh episode. Alec, Brad and stuff. So we're just trying to sell people on what the hell this thing is, Right. We're trying to get viewers. And we were a pretty serialized show for a sitcom, and I think we were encouraged at every turn to kind of resell the premise. Resell. But then at a certain point, you. Every episode can't be the world's gonna blow up. Right. There need to be different stakes of different episodes. And we got there. But at episode seven, we're still kind of showing you the central drive of the show. And Ted is pretty manic about trying to get that central drive to happen when he steals this woman's information.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. It was also funny to me, like, all's fair in love for Ted. He's unethical. He'll steal blue French Horns. He'll. He'll steal data from a woman's computer. Like, he's very. He grants himself, like, a wide berth in terms of, like, acceptable behavior.

[Craig Thomas]

It's really true. Zero guilt about whoever this guy is that she's marrying. Really?

[Josh Radnor]

Yes.

[Craig Thomas]

She says, I'm getting married Saturday. Goes Friday.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Can we hang out Friday? You played that so great. That is. That's one of my favorite jokes, the episode. And that was an act break blow. I think that's a very actual funny joke to go out on. It doesn't always happen at these act breaks. And so, yeah, very remorseless out there, throwing elbows. Totally cold blooded killer there, Ted. He's just like. I don't know, he thinks he's. He's better than the other guy because the numbers.

[Josh Radnor]

You know what I thought was clever, though, was how the matchmaker completely sees through Barney.

[Craig Thomas]

I love that. That is a great Cameron Manheim moment. She's so good at seeing. Right. Acting like she's buying it and then. Absolutely. This was great.

[Josh Radnor]

Also one of the great. How I met your mother. Names? No. Jack Package.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, Jack Pakaj. It's pronounced.

[Josh Radnor]

It's pronounced Picage is so funny.

[Craig Thomas]

It's so good. That is such a good line.

[Josh Radnor]

But I also like it in. In some ways, it's a really great way to establish her credibility. Like, she sees through Barney, which Ted is not sure that everyone will, because often people don't. And it recruits him to trust her. Right?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, it does.

[Josh Radnor]

And she can size him up pretty quickly. She's like, you, I can work with. You know?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's the moment she seems legitimate to Ted. And there's like a little cutaway moment where you play that. You play that exact moment where it's like, wait a second, maybe this woman has done something right.

[Josh Radnor]

A great salesperson convinces you that you'd be a fool not to use their product or do, you know, do this thing. And she really sells him in a great way.

[Craig Thomas]

You know what else I know? I'm gonna own a thing that I think could have been better in this episode. Which is to say, think about this, Barney. After the great Jack the Picage, that scene, he has nothing to do the whole rest of the episode. Cameron Manheim sends him walking off into. I don't have a. And not that every single episode of How Much a Mother was like five robust full stories, but usually, at least if someone was minor, they kind of had a take or an attitude or a little runner. I was very struck by we really hung Barney up to dry as soon as he kicked out of him. He's kicked off of Ted's storyline and then just floats around in this kind of limbo ether for the rest of the episode. He has a couple of funny lines, but I was like, boy, we really didn't. We did not challenge ourselves to come up with a new game for Barney after that, which I think later in series we probably would have. It felt a little young to me. It felt like now everybody should have a thing. Even if it's a small thing, they should have a thing. The thing shouldn't end on page 10 out of a 47 page script. And so, yeah, I thought that could, that could have been a little better. But. But yeah, you and Cameron were great. You guys. Had you guys ever worked together before?

[Josh Radnor]

Or was that your first time working together?

[Craig Thomas]

You guys had a nice little chemistry.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. I knew Cameron because she went to nyu, to the grad acting program before I was there.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And we had this wonderful teacher named Joanna Merlin, who passed away last year, who was just the best. And she was this legendary actress. She was. She was the. The one of the dance teachers in Fame. She was the original title in Fiddler on the Roof on Broadway.

[Craig Thomas]

So cool. And then it all comes back to Fiddler on the Roof.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Matt.

[Josh Radnor]

Speaking of matchmakers, that's so funny. And then she was a casting director while she was an actor, and she cast all of the great Stephen Sondheim musicals of the 70s. Like she. I mean, she cast all of them, like Company, Pacific Overtures, Follies, Sweeney.

[Craig Thomas]

Is there a conflict of interest there, being a casting director?

[Josh Radnor]

I don't know. We might have talked about it, how she navigated that, but she taught us a career class at nyu, which is like how to our third year, like how to navigate the business of agents and cast directors and auditions.

[Craig Thomas]

Smart class.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. And it was a great idea for a class. It was great. And she brought Cameron in, who at that time, Cameron would come every single year and she would talk to us for like 90 minutes or whatever about how she navigated being a young actor. Because Cameron, she got out of nyu, she didn't get an agent, and how she built this really powerhouse career. And she. It was especially comforting for people who got out of NYU kind of without agents or representation. That wasn't helping them very much. She showed you. I took such copious notes. And I told her over the years when I would run into her, I'd say your talk at NYU helped me almost more than anything that I learned at that school.

[Craig Thomas]

How cool is that? I didn't remember that. I knew there was some blurry memory of you guys having an overlap, but the idea that you were that young Josh Radner in that audience. Now you're doing scenes with Cameron.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, exactly. And then I ended up as the star of a TV show that she guest starred on. I mean, it was really, really cool. It was great. It was great.

[Alec Lev]

Do you know what else that Cameron did to support herself in her early years? Cameron was a sign language interpret.

[Josh Radnor]

Oh, is that right? I think I did know that.

[Craig Thomas]

Which our producer, Alec Lev, is also a professional sound interpreter on one of his many hats.

[Alec Lev]

She and I have crossed paths over that and the fact that her child was a student of my wife's at school.

[Josh Radnor]

Oh, my gosh. Wow.

[Craig Thomas]

The simulation is running out of ideas. Everything's folding in on itself.

[Alec Lev]

Her son Milo is an actor now, Milo Manheim, and he is on Disney shows. And he was just in a performance here of American Idiot with a cast of deaf and hearing actors that I.

[Craig Thomas]

Was working on because he knows signs.

[Alec Lev]

So well from his doesn't. I didn't translate. But he wound up learning it in the show, but.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, that's funny. Oh, that's amazing. That's a small world. Well, hello, Cameron. Hello, Milo. You guys were great. I forgot that. That's so cool, Josh. I love those moments where somebody like that. That you were just, like, looking up to. You're now head to head in these.

[Josh Radnor]

I was also telling someone a story about I was really into when I was at NYU and even before I would go to, like, Shakespeare and Company or the Drama Bookshop. And I would. I would find all these, like, career books, like, advice for young actors, like how to get an agent, how to talk to casting director, how to audition. Like, I was really. I did a lot of research in that just because I was. I was from Ohio. I didn't know. I, like, I needed to learn and I wanted to have a career. And there was this woman, Kay Callan, who wrote these books that were so helpful to me. And she ended up on How I Met yout Mother as, I think, Lily's grandma.

[Craig Thomas]

I was just gonna say Kay Kellen. Absolutely.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

She was Lily's.

[Josh Radnor]

She was Lily's grandma, like season five or six or something. And I got to tell her, like, I read all of your books. I was so they were really helpful to me. So there's really sweet things that happen.

[Craig Thomas]

There was moments before the Internet, Josh, this is what I Find myself thinking about this a lot sometimes. The other day, like. Like, we try to talk about what writing is like on this podcast because maybe young aspiring writers are listening, right? We get into some stuff. And part of what makes me happy is the thought that someone young who wants to know how stuff is made can hear a little bit about that. When I was a kid, there weren't podcasts, there wasn't the Internet, there wasn't a lot of inside baseball talk about how writing worked. And I remember getting my hands on. And Alec, you might have had this, too. The script book of Monty Python, the TV series, the book of scripts of all of those episodes and how those guys wrote those scripts. And it was just like. Like little British screenplays of the Monty Python episodes. And I got the same for Fawlty Towers, which is an amazing British sitcom you youngins should go check out. And just what those things, what a message in a bottle those things were before there were all these other ways to find out. I'm just thinking about, like, what Cameron Manheim's words to you in that class in that talk meant. What, Kay, her writing that book. It's a message in a bottle to your little desert island in the 1990s and when we were kids and stuff, and those. How important those things are and the meaning of those things that you find these things, and it's like a treasure map, and you just go, oh, maybe if I go this way, I'll get towards what I want.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, also, art can seem so mysterious, you know, like, how did the Beatles do that? And then you get the Beatles chord book, and you see, like, oh, they put together these, you know, these chords and these arrangements. We're kind of in the golden age of spilling trade secrets, right? Like, it's like you can listen to a hundred screenwriters talk about how they construct screenplays. And in some ways, it's a. A. It's a liberation because there's no excuse. Like, if you can't afford to go to film school, you can give yourself a great film education with an iPhone, with, you know, great five great screenwriting podcasts, filmmaking podcasts. Like, there's so many ways to. You can look at YouTube, how they did different shots and what different shots mean and. Yeah, yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

And you said you got as much out of Cameron's talk about, you know, that practical, like, life advice and how she did it. You got as much out of that talk as you did from certain.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, I would say that.

[Craig Thomas]

I would say this a little goes a long way.

[Josh Radnor]

They nyu Trained me to be an actor who already had a job, meaning I knew what to do once I had the job. What I. What they didn't train me to do was how to stay sane when I didn't have jobs or when I was auditioning. And that was what Cameron. Her whole thing was about strategizing how to not lose your mind in those stretches of unemployment and when you feel like it's never going to work for you or you want to give up. Like, she had a lot of survival skill, like coping strategies that were essential for me. I'm still probably drawing on a lot of them unconsciously. And this old man, he must admit, fell in love with you.

[Craig Thomas]

New York City and now commercials.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, I'm back.

[Craig Thomas]

Where are you back from, Josh?

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, I did a little west coast swing. Started in Seattle, went down the coast with my guitar, hopping the rails.

[Craig Thomas]

Were you playing some kind of music on this?

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, I was playing music, Craig. I'm a musician. I played original songs in a bunch of different cities. Ended up in Phoenix at the Musical Instrument Museum, which was incredible.

[Craig Thomas]

That sounds like the best.

[Josh Radnor]

Fantastic. And now I'm home for a couple days, and then I. I hit the road again. I'm doing a little Midwestern swing. And then. Are they called the Mid Atlantic states? Is that like Maryland and Virginia? Yeah, Mid Atlantic, Mid Atlantic.

[Craig Thomas]

What are the dates, roughly? Now, we're not date by dates. Give us a ballpark. So people look out for it.

[Josh Radnor]

I think I do. Columbus, May 8, I think, and then Cincinnati and then Evanston, Ann Arbor. And then I'm doing later. Towards the end of the month, I'm doing Annapolis and Philly and right outside.

[Craig Thomas]

D.C. that is very cool. Everyone in all those places. Go look it up. Joshradner.com right.

[Josh Radnor]

Joshratner.com tour.

[Craig Thomas]

Tour. So we're talking about that, but here's the other question we need to ask. What are you doing with your. Your place while you're.

[Josh Radnor]

What do you mean, what am I doing with my place?

[Craig Thomas]

I mean, what's happening? Is it just sitting there? Is it just.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, it's just sitting. It's just sitting here waiting for me to come home.

[Craig Thomas]

Just sitting there empty. Huh?

[Becky]

So let me.

[Craig Thomas]

Let me drop a little knowledge on you, Josh. You could have made some extra cash while you're away with that empty apartment, sitting there doing nothing. You could have hosted it on Airbnb. You're a fool. A fool, I say. You musicians flitting around the country.

[Josh Radnor]

I feel foolish.

[Craig Thomas]

The musical middle class needs to listen to what I'm about to say next for all of you listening, musicians or non, if you have a trip coming up too, consider hosting your home on Airbnb while you're away. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host.

[Kaley Cuoco]

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[State Farm Announcer]

Go to your happy price.

[Craig Thomas]

Priceline. End of commercials back to show Every now and again I feel like I don't call out the writers enough. We just dive into the content. Marcel and Johnson, really funny writing team wrote in season one, How Much yout Mother, a bunch of other great shows I think they might still write on like what we do in shadows or have for a bunch of years. They're really funny dudes. So they wrote this. It's great. I just want to give them a shout out and give Pam Freeman a shout out for how she shot this episode. Do you know what I mean, Josh? Like the cockamouse stuff, those POV shots from the floor and everyone's running around and this was a very like, this was a funny on mute episode this past. Is it funny on mute? Dust and just shots. I love and I think Pam steered us this way. I love how he didn't do this thing of like and you never see anything about the cockamouse and the whole joke is you don't get anything. You really basically see the cockamouse in lots of ways and it's so ham fisted and stupid. Like they throw the phone book on it and then that big wide shot where you see the phone scurrying away.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Is so great. I had forgotten about that shot. I'm so glad that we're like we're not going to try to be too cool for that shot. We're just going to do that fucking shot.

[Josh Radnor]

But it's a little like it's like Jaws but not it's Jaws.

[Craig Thomas]

I was thinking about Jaws too where.

[Josh Radnor]

It'S like the fear is that you don't actually see the thing. It's just the suggestion of the thing, but also the one like quick half second splat against the window.

[Craig Thomas]

The window. The window was so funny. It was like just someone just throws a fucking stuff down at a window. It's like did this whole big mysterious thing and then it's stupid.

[Josh Radnor]

I also remember, I think I was on set when they were doing that. For some reason I was maybe like I'd wrapped my day, I was passing through. But I remember watching the monitor and Pam had to talk Ally, Kobe and Jason like through their eyeline because they all had to be looking at the same kind of thing. And I don't know if like, if George was out there with a stick, you know, like showing them where it.

[Craig Thomas]

Was string or something.

[Josh Radnor]

Or Dave maybe, but Dave Baker. Yeah. It was so funny and silly.

[Craig Thomas]

It was so delightful. I love that storyline. The other thing I noticed about the storyline in addition, first of all, it is Jaws. Until then it's just like, here's the shark. And by shark we mean a stupid little stuffed animal we're going to throw in a window. It was so demystifying and ridiculously stupid. I loved it. But Alyson Hannigan getting to call upon her Buffy the Vampire Slayer, like Willow screaming and running from vampires chops. She's just good at that. She's just good and hilarious and screaming and reacting in those big eyes. She is so funny in this episode. Just like. And I was a huge Carter and I both buffed the Van Vocelier fans. My wife Rebecca turned us onto the show. We fell in love with Ally. Rebecca said, cast Allie as Lily and we did. And so I just like whenever I see there are these little moments in the show, the you're dead to me eyes, a little these you're dead to me eyes. A bit later in series where we just said, let's do what we know works and just steal from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Alison Hannigan playing it up at this sort of horror movie fever pitch. She's just so good at it. Why is she so good at that? And it's funny.

[Josh Radnor]

She's a really good actor.

[Craig Thomas]

She's just a good actor. Oh my God. And her response to when you said the only way that could be a mouse is if a cockroach skinned a mouse and wore its skin or whatever. Her like creeped out reaction to that where she's just like shivering in the throat.

[Josh Radnor]

Oh my God.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. She's so funny. She's fabulous.

[Josh Radnor]

Alison, I already mentioned this, but again, for some reason, it's so funny to me that Jason like, knows what its diet is. Like, he's got a whole. He's the world's leading expert in the cockamas.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. How would he have gotten any of those facts? I guess he's made observations around the apartment. Oh, that's so funny.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. I remember the feeling was when I was watching it, I was like, Jason likes doing this. This is really fun.

[Craig Thomas]

He was very into it. For as much as we know about the Kagamas, there is still so much we don't know.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. But Jason also, like, it's so funny. I don't think he'd mind me sharing this. Like, like Jason also likes ghosts and aliens. Let's be honest. Like, he's into that stuff. Like, he's not going to pass up the UFO documentary when he's flipping through channels.

[Craig Thomas]

Totally.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Jason and I very much shared that. And that was some nice Marshall connective DNA there for us.

[Josh Radnor]

So we are up to the segment of the show that we like to call questions and observations from a clinical psychologist and relationship expert who's never seen how I met your mother and also happens to be married.

[Jordana]

I love how this episode highlighted the question that so many of us have about finding love. Should we rely on science or fate? And 20 years after the show has aired, we live in a world that relies so much more heavily on science. Now with big tech, with online dating being the primary way we meet people these days, I personally found myself feeling grateful Ted didn't have hinge, but maybe even more grateful that Barney didn't have Tinder. But it did make me think about how online dating, when it's not working, can feel flat, rigid and plunge people into despair like it did the matchmaker. That said, Ted really held the faith and advocated for keeping the magic alive. And it does seem to be part of his personality. And it made me wonder if maybe that's one of the reasons the show is so appealing to people in their 20s and 30s right now who want to leave some of that data driven way of dating behind and return to that magic, that mystery, that serendipity.

[Craig Thomas]

That is a great observation and maybe that is part of the show's appeal to a younger generation. I love that theory.

[Josh Radnor]

Isn't there like a trend on social media, maybe on TikTok, where there's this fascination with analog childhoods like pre cell phone. Like it feels like this lost Eden that you would be not hooked up to your phone all day, that you'd be on bicycles and just have to be home by sundown and. And I And I think even in, when it, when it comes to dating, and I think what, what Jordana's saying is that there's this feeling. I don't know how to do this any other way because this is the way it's being done right now. But also this is misery. You know, Like, I have. My friends who are single, our friends who are single have all but stopped with the apps. Like, they're not, they. They. There. There's been a lot of studies on the futility on some level of. There's something like 5% of men on the apps get like 80% of the women on the apps or something. Like, it's a, it's a. It's really rigged for a certain kind of person to do very well. And other people.

[Craig Thomas]

Barney.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. And other people are kind of fighting over what's left. And it's like, what's left? That sounds horrible, but you know what I mean? Like, it just feels like there's, there's a dehumanizing effect of it. And even my friends who are lovely people and would be incredible partnership people, they say, I, I find myself even being incredibly superficial and swipe, swipe, swipe. You know, you make these quick judgments about people and, And I think there is. I've noticed it in myself, not around dating, but in other areas that, like, there's this longing to find some analog piece, you know, to get back with real paper, real books, real newspapers, to put down the screens to at least. I don't know that we're getting rid of these things, but to at least carve out time that is screen free. It makes me think that, you know, Judaism had a really good idea in the Sabbath. You know, it's like, it's a, It's a really good idea. Right.

[Craig Thomas]

Very mentally healthy.

[Josh Radnor]

Exactly. And I think you can do it any way you want. You could pick Wednesday to Thursday or whatever. It doesn't matter. But you. I know Elizabeth Gilbert does, like phone free Thursdays. You know, like, I think we're gonna have to start carving out times for ourselves that are not screen based. And it's, and it's. Our souls are dependent upon it. Yes. But this is a little awkward because.

[Craig Thomas]

Today'S episode of the podcast is brought to you by Hinge and Tinder.

[Josh Radnor]

This.

[Craig Thomas]

Very awkward. Yeah, no, no, it's. It's so true. And I think there's a weariness to, to trying to apply science and technology onto literally every. Every moment of our lives. You didn't meet Jordana. You didn't meet Your wife via that. I. I met my wife in real life in college. And, like, there. There are plenty of people meet it. Plenty of people get lucky on an app, too. And, like, get lucky. Get the right kind of lucky. Get, like, you actually meet somebody they can be in love with. But, like, it's. So I think people are weary, and I think people are exhausted. Yeah. And I think they need.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

And I think that's true. And maybe that's. I love it if that's part of the appeal of Ham and Trundle. Because when I first watched this episode, like I said at the beginning of this talk we're having, I thought, oh, this is so dated and old, but maybe that's. Maybe it not being a whole episode about a phone app is what's appealing about it, actually.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. And I think also 2005. When did the iPhone premiere? 2008, maybe 2007. 2007. So that's a real inflection point. That's what Jonathan Haidt, you know, identifies. Like, 2007 is when the kind of mental health decline started among adolescents.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radnor]

And it's when, you know, Instagram and all, you know, all these sites where we kind of are comparing other people's outsides to our insides, as they say. So I think it's funny because I. I had a nothing phone when how I met your mother started. And then everyone had the trio. Remember when everyone had a trio?

[Craig Thomas]

Absolutely.

[Josh Radnor]

And then Neil. I remember Neil and Jason were Apple freaks. They were like, when Steve Jobs was about to make an announcement, they were watching it live. They were really into the unveiling of the Apple products. And I'm a late adopter. I was never like that. That. But I remember when smartphones got on set.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And I remember how everyone just got a little more inward, you know, sitting at the booth. But when we were on the show, you guys wrote, you know, you would update. Like, I remember. I remember Barney. Barney had a line. I don't remember when it was from, but he said, the. The peeps need my tweets.

[Craig Thomas]

Do you remember that? Newman tweets. Yeah, I do. Apostrophe peeps. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

That's where you were like, oh, Twitter's here. Twitter's here.

[Craig Thomas]

I guess that's the thing now.

[Josh Radnor]

That's a thing now, you know.

[Craig Thomas]

Totally.

[Josh Radnor]

And I think a lot of the show is perennial in that you can watch it, whatever. There's a couple things that date it and that we said, some more ripped from the headlines kinds of things. But I think that there's a sturdiness to the fact that they were people in a bar looking each other in the eye, eating hamburgers, drinking beer. You know, there's just something very sturdy and iconic and timeless about the digital world. Hadn't subsumed them quite yet.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, and I think there's something comforting about that. And I've read the same thing and more so about friends. Like people, maybe young people in their 20s and their teens like friends because there's literally no cell phones really. And there's something comforting about that. And I like how minimally we got into tech. I do like that even when it existed, we weren't like every episode was about Ted on his phone or about, you know, like we could have done more of that later in series and we wanted it to be more timeless.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, I'm always conflicted as a writer because I want to write things that are, that will be watchable in 20, 30, 50 years. But at the same time, if you want to deal with what life feels like right now, you kind of got to deal with pharmaceuticals and tech and screens, you know, but it also, you're in danger of the technology changes so quickly that you're in danger of really dating what you're writing. Speaking of dating though, just to get back to Jordana's larger point about it really goes back to math or magic, which I can't again recommend highly enough from this American Life. But I think that we're always trying to gamify or rig matters of the heart. You know, I think it's, it's, it's, you know, it's in Shakespeare. Right. Like this is an ancient thing like how do we meet and connect? How do we have sustainable relationships? What, how do we meet people where we line up, what makes a good match? Right. Like a lot of people, I know a woman whose marriage failed and she told someone I know that she thought, well, we loved all the same music and we loved all the same movies. And I thought that was enough, enough, you know what I mean? Like the, the like just because your tastes line up doesn't mean you're going to be able to build a life with someone. And in fact a lot of mismatches on paper end up being wonderful sustainable matches. So it's confusing. It's, I, I, I understand. And I, I remember being baffled by one, if I wanted to be in a long term relationship. But two, just what, what, what mattered, you know, what were my priorities? And you know, I, I, I, I feel for my friends who are single and Trying to navigate this science based algorithm. You know, one.

[Craig Thomas]

One last little idea I just wanted to share just because it literally just popped into my head this happened. My. My son recently had the stomach flu and he's never watched all that much Mother, but he basically binged season one in one long sitting with the stomach flu. Maybe it lasted two days. And he coined this phrase that because he loves Ted. Josh, he loves you. He just loves you in general. He knows you. He's performed in music on the same bill as you, so he feels like he knows you and loves you, but he's really fallen in love with Ted. And he said this phrase to me that I was heartbroken to think we didn't put on the show. And you tell me if you think we did, but he was praising you and praising Ted and he said, you know what? He is Ted. He's Tegendary. And I went, holy fucking shit. And I really did say that around him and my younger daughter as at the top of my lungs. And I said, so if anyone thinks we use that on the show and can make me feel better about it.

[Josh Radnor]

I'm sure I could almost with great certainty say that we did not.

[Craig Thomas]

Because we did not.

[Josh Radnor]

It would have stopped.

[Craig Thomas]

It destroyed my soul that we had never used it at the same. And even at the same time as I was so proud of Elliot for coming up with Legendary, because I think that's brilliant. He said, he said to me, dad, you have to say that on the podcast because he's also listening to the podcast. Elliot, I've now said your amazing joke Tegendary. It is bittersweet because there's no time machine to go put it on the actual show.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, it would have been in a kind of like final Ted, Barney scene.

[Craig Thomas]

It would have been actually like, it.

[Josh Radnor]

Would have been like a real tearjerker for Barney to call him Tejender.

[Craig Thomas]

That one could have been. Oh my God, that could have been like, they're touching.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, speaking of young genius punsters, my ex girlfriend had a son and he at the time was 12 and my dog Nelson was a puppy, like very like freshly hatched. And we were all together and Nelson for some reason would just go after this kid's shoes and like socks. Like he destroyed his favorite pair of like skate shoes, you know, and it was a. It was a navigation, right? Like I had to. I had to work through, you know, having a puppy and having, having this. But he said one of the funniest puns I've ever heard. This is a 12 year old boy. He looks at my dog and he says, nelson, we gotta curb your enthusiasm.

[Craig Thomas]

That's unreal.

[Josh Radnor]

Isn't that amazing?

[Craig Thomas]

Next level Ninja.

[Josh Radnor]

I know, I was so impressed with it. Choosasm, we gotta curb your enthusiasm.

[Craig Thomas]

Well, it is not getting better than that. That is. That line is teary. And we, we, we'll peace out on that. I think.

[Josh Radnor]

So we've got another wonderful letter written by someone that Alec Lev selected to be this week's. What are we calling Is this. Is this our mail section?

[Craig Thomas]

Mail.

[Alec Lev]

This is our mail section.

[Josh Radnor]

And we have a new name for this, right? We have a new name for this section. It's called. Called Mailed it from Alex, from Sarah.

[Craig Thomas]

Right. Pitching lobbin and three pointers.

[Josh Radnor]

All right, well, this is from. This is from Joel. Joel writes, how I met your mother was first introduced to me in 2009 by my best friend Ryan. The show had already been on for years, but I never got the ch. Got a chance to enjoy it until he suggested it. He told me it was different than your standard sitcoms that we had grown used to. Of course, it had some of the familiar beats you'd catch from other classic shows. But after watching it and finishing the second season, I noticed something. The heart, the heart that went into this beautiful show was shining through more than any sitcom I'd seen before. This group, these friends, reminded me so much of mine. How chosen families grow more common as you get older and how much the time we all have together should be cherished. I saw a lot of myself in Ted. I wasn't quite in my 30s yet, but I was really excited to find something real with someone. I could feel the frustration he had for being a hopeless romantic and at times quite dumb. Haha. I met my now wife while working at a science museum, which she also was an employee. We hung out a bunch of times and we never connected. But as life goes, sometimes we both went our separate ways. Although we. We did keep in touch over the years. We both dated around and thought we found love, then would lose it with others. Once we finally reconnected, we both knew we were meant to be. It was destiny. It was fate. To this day, when we get to the time travelers episode where and here Alec cuts me off and he wrote in bold and I won't read what he says here, it's filled with spoilers. And then he goes on, josh, you showed so much love and heartache at the same time. It's beyond moving. I keep thinking I would do the same thing to my now wife if I could travel back in time to that science museum. Oh, and we were expecting our first child this June. Her name will be Victoria. No, not after that. Victoria. This show still means as much to me as it did when I first watched and I doubt that feeling will ever go away. Thank you Craig and Josh for helping create something truly special that everyone in my family and countless families will enjoy throughout time. All the best and never forget to suit up. Joel. Thank you Joel. That is so lovely, so moving.

[Craig Thomas]

Beautiful, beautiful messages. Thank you. It's hard not to dive in and talk about the spoiler things that he's talking about, but I'll just second that what he's talking about. You were really, really good in that scene and that speech. We won't go into it too much. Get there. It's only eight short seasons away from right now. Seven. Stay tuned.

[Josh Radnor]

Season seven episodes coming up.

[Craig Thomas]

We'll get there. It's coming up in three and a half years.

[Josh Radnor]

I am guilty. Please acquit me. All sins are forgiven Given in New.

[Alec Lev]

York City How We Made youe Mother is hosted and executive produced by Josh Radner and Craig Thomas. The show was produced by me, Alec Lev, and our co producer is Doug Matica. Our audio producer and mixer is Alex Reeves at Point of Blue Studios. Artwork by John Morrow. Please follow, rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or your podcast player of choice. It really does help the show. Our theme song is NYC by our own Josh Radner. Special thanks to Lola Kennedy and Elliot Connors. Visit how we madeyourmother.com to sign up for our substack mailing list and for links to our social media. You can also click on the contact page to send us an email or a voice message. Your stories and questions are an important part of the show. Subscribe to Josh Radner's muse letters on Substack. Read Craig Thomas's published [e-mail] and you can subscribe to My Dead Father Society also on Substack, to learn about how you make a difference, this show's ongoing campaign to raise money for congenital heart disease research. Check out the Make a Difference tab at the top of our website. The this episode was made possible by the support of Backyard Ventures Marketing provided by Tink Media. People will in fact dance the real.

[Josh Radnor]

Question it just hit me. Am I in love with you or just New York City? From Tako Knight in Tulum to Sushi in Tokyo make every bite rewarding with gold from wherever you dine four times. Membership rewards points at restaurants worldwide are piling up.

[State Farm Announcer]

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