How We Met Your Vader | S1E15 "Game Night" with Chris Harris

Summary

How We Made Your Mother: Episode 15 - "Game Night" with Chris Harris

Release Date: July 14, 2025

Introduction

In Episode 15 of Season 1, titled "Game Night," hosted by Josh Radnor and Craig Thomas, the podcast "How We Made Your Mother" delves deep into the creation and enduring impact of the iconic "How I Met Your Mother" (HIMYM) episode "Game Night." This episode features special guest Chris Harris, a celebrated writer for HIMYM, who provides an insider’s perspective on crafting one of the show's most memorable episodes.

Episode Synopsis and Guest Introduction

The episode begins with heartfelt listener messages, highlighting the profound personal impacts HIMYM has had on its audience. At [03:37], Josh Radnor introduces Chris Harris, emphasizing his pivotal role in writing "Game Night" and other significant episodes. The hosts warmly welcome Chris, setting the stage for an in-depth discussion about the episode’s creation and legacy.

"Game Night" Episode Breakdown

"Game Night" revolves around a pivotal evening where Barney Stinson's (Neil Patrick Harris) mysterious backstory is unveiled. During a game night organized by Marshall, secrets emerge, leading Barney to reveal his most embarrassing moments to uncover more about himself.

At [05:36], Craig Thomas provides a quick synopsis: “During a game night run by Marshall, a secret comes out about Barney. And in order for everyone to hear his story, he gets the most embarrassing moments from each of the other cast members along the way.”

Creative Inspirations and Writing Process

Chris Harris shares his inspirations and the challenges faced while writing the episode. At [06:50], Carter Bays recalls the initial concept: “Let's tell an origin story for Barney. Let's show how he was a hippie in the late '90s and what turned him into the suit-wearing monster he became.” This idea was influenced by narrative structures like those seen in "Star Wars," where characters' backstories are intricately explored.

Chris adds at [24:43], “It’s like a sphinx kind of riddle. Kind of like you have to make an offering to get to the next level,” highlighting the structured yet organic approach taken to unfold Barney’s history.

Character Development: Barney’s Vulnerability

A central theme of the discussion is Barney’s transformation from a sensitive hippie to a suave suit-wearer. At [23:08], Carter Bays explains the delicate balance required: “Balancing the serialized nature of the show with the episodic nature was a huge challenge in the first season.” They aimed to ensure that each episode, while self-contained, contributed to the overarching narrative.

Chris Harris eloquently captures Barney’s depth at [53:20]: “The people who present as tough and invulnerable were often once very sensitive, but that part of them has been hurt and has subsequently gone underground.” This insight underscores the episode’s exploration of Barney’s hidden vulnerabilities, making him a more relatable and multifaceted character.

Storytelling Techniques and Structural Innovations

The episode "Game Night" employs innovative storytelling techniques, blending present-day scenarios with impactful flashbacks. At [32:18], Carter Bays remarks, “The idea that the story ends...half an hour before he started the story...literally connected the past story to tonight.” This seamless integration ensures that flashbacks are not mere episodes of nostalgia but are pivotal in advancing the present-day narrative.

They discuss the necessity of having a present-day conundrum to prevent the episode from feeling like a simple clip show. At [49:03], Craig Thomas states, “The flashbacks need to have twists and turns of their own. You need each flashback to be different from the other. You need to be really moving the story forward in the present or else it's just like a clip show.”

Humor and Emotional Depth

HIMYM is renowned for its blend of humor and heartfelt moments. Chris Harris highlights [34:22], “This is a now beloved section of the show that we like to call Questions and Observations from a Clinical psychologist who's never seen How I Met Your Mother and also happens to be married to Josh.” This interplay between humor and emotional storytelling is a hallmark of the series, ensuring that even comedic moments carry emotional weight.

The discussion touches upon memorable jokes and character quirks, such as Marshall’s obsession with games and Barney’s elaborate storytelling. At [42:47], Carter Bays shares, “But I loved...the 'what runner' is funnier every time. It's like a staircase of laughter.”

Behind-the-Scenes Anecdotes

Listeners gain exclusive insights into the writer’s room dynamics and the collaborative spirit that fueled HIMYM’s success. At [23:08], Carter Bays mentions, “Every writer...it's got contributions from every writer in it. Every writer. It's been through the room multiple, multiple times.”

Chris Harris shares personal anecdotes, including the origin of certain jokes and character traits. For example, the iconic "Legendary" catchphrase was a collaborative creation, born out of brainstorming sessions and perfected through multiple drafts.

Impact and Legacy

As the discussion progresses towards the latter part of the episode, the hosts reflect on the cultural and personal impact of HIMYM. At [54:51], Carter Bays expresses heartfelt gratitude: “I think one thing we were good at was being aware in the moment of how fortunate we all were to be working with each other.”

Listener letters further emphasize the show's enduring legacy. A particularly moving letter from Louis in the Faroe Islands at [60:26] describes how HIMYM provided solace during challenging times, underscoring the show's role as "medicine for the soul in hard times."

Conclusion

The episode concludes with the hosts and guest Chris Harris celebrating the intricate craftsmanship behind "Game Night" and HIMYM as a whole. At [58:45], Craig Thomas praises Chris Harris: “Chris Harris is the dream writer to have on your writing staff and has been an amazing showrunner of other stuff now, too...”

They also encourage listeners to share their own stories and connect further with the podcast community, reinforcing the show's commitment to engaging with and honoring its fanbase.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Craig Thomas [05:15]: “Line of this episode?”
• Carter Bays [06:50]: “Let's tell an origin story for Barney. Let's show how he was a hippie in the late '90s and what turned him into the suit-wearing monster he became.”
• Chris Harris [24:43]: “It’s like a sphinx kind of riddle. Kind of like you have to make an offering to get to the next level.”
• Carter Bays [23:08]: “Balancing the serialized nature of the show with the episodic nature was a huge challenge in the first season.”
• Chris Harris [34:22]: “The people who present as tough and invulnerable were often once very sensitive, but that part of them has been hurt and has subsequently gone underground.”
• Carter Bays [32:18]: “The idea that the story ends...half an hour before he started the story...literally connected the past story to tonight.”
• Craig Thomas [49:03]: “The flashbacks need to have twists and turns of their own. You need each flashback to be different from the other. You need to be really moving the story forward in the present or else it's just like a clip show.”

Final Thoughts

"Game Night" serves as a testament to the meticulous storytelling and character development that defined HIMYM. Through collaborative creativity and heartfelt narratives, the episode not only entertains but also offers deep insights into the characters’ lives, making it a standout moment in the series. "How We Made Your Mother" masterfully captures this essence, providing listeners with an engaging and comprehensive exploration of one of HIMYM's most beloved episodes.

Transcript

[Josh Radnor]

With the Venmo Debit card, you can Venmo everything. Your favorite band's merch.

[Craig Thomas]

You can Venmo this or their next show.

[Chris Harris]

You can Venmo that.

[Carter Bays]

Visit Venmo Me Debit to learn more.

[Josh Radnor]

The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp bank and a pursuant to license.

[Chris Harris]

By MasterCard International, Inc.

[Josh Radnor]

The card may be used everywhere MasterCard is accepted.

[Carter Bays]

Venmo purchase restrictions apply.

[Chris Harris]

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[Louis]

Hello everyone. My name is Josh. I am from Pennsylvania and on the 20th of April of 2025, I hit my five year sobriety mark. I just wanted you guys to know that in my deepest, darkest times, getting to where I am today, going from living in a ditch to going to a rehab, sober house, so on, so forth, I now met the woman of my dreams and am soon asking her to take my hand in marriage. And without how I met your mother, I wouldn't have made it through those deep dark days. And I just wanted to take the opportunity to thank the cast and everyone with all their hard work and tell you all I appreciate it so much. Thank you.

[Chris Harris]

I'm alone. What a pity I won't be soon in New York City when I see you. Please permit me to tell you everything in New York City.

[Alec Lev]

Wow.

[Chris Harris]

What a way to start. Hello everyone. I'm Josh Radner. I'm joined as ever by my friend Craig Thomas. Hello, Craig.

[Craig Thomas]

Hello, Josh.

[Chris Harris]

Welcome to another episode of How We Made youe Mother. We're discussing the program, the series, the television show How How I Met yout Mother, which Craig created with Carter Bayes. It ran for nine years. People still love it. People. We are interrogating exactly what Josh shared with us, why How I Met yout Mother is such good medicine for people in hard times. Josh, if you're listening, and I hope you are, thank you for my gosh.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah.

[Chris Harris]

Thank you for the gift of that voice note. We're so glad you did he say you hit five years of surprise. Five years. No small thing that's huge. Some might even say it's a major accomplishment.

[Craig Thomas]

Major accomplishment.

[Chris Harris]

And yeah, we're thrilled. We're thrilled for you. And congrats on the almost engagement. Yeah, we're so happy to be here.

[Craig Thomas]

That was almost a proposal. That was almost. It's like, when does this air? When's he going to ask? You don't know.

[Chris Harris]

He has to come to a Josh Radner show on tour because that's where all the proposals are happening these days. It's happening. So we have a. You know, this is a great extra special episode because we have a guest star today who is not only a hilarious writer, but he is one of the handsomest comedy writers in Hollywood. Please welcome a person who was on the show. Is this correct? Greg, from day one.

[Craig Thomas]

Day one. Pre. Day one.

[Chris Harris]

Day one to day final. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Day one, today final. One of the all time greats, How I Met yout Mother. Writers, ladies and gentlemen, Chris Harris.

[Chris Harris]

Chris Harris is with us, the author.

[Craig Thomas]

Of Game Night, which we're going to talk about. Hi, Chris.

[Chris Harris]

Hi, Chris.

[Carter Bays]

Hi, guys. So thank you for letting me be here. And if you please elaborate on the handsome part, because I think I 100% will.

[Chris Harris]

Do people ever say that you resemble the great Welsh actor Michael Sheen? Have you heard this before?

[Carter Bays]

He's. He's hot. Preacher or hot.

[Chris Harris]

No, no, no, that's Andrew Scott. Nice. Michael Sheen. Look at my. You might want to look him up.

[Carter Bays]

I love Chris Harris.

[Craig Thomas]

Upgraded. The hot actor he was being compared to. He's like.

[Chris Harris]

You mean that young guy in Thelma and Louise?

[Craig Thomas]

No, that's Brad Pitt.

[Carter Bays]

That's a young Brad Pitt. Which James Bond was he? Because. Yes, I get them all.

[Chris Harris]

Well, we're thrilled to have you here, Chris. Do you feel complete on the handsomeness or do you need more?

[Carter Bays]

No, that was plenty. It was. It went right into parody very quickly. So.

[Chris Harris]

Well, we're discussing your great season one episode. I think it's episode 15. Is that right, Alex?

[Carter Bays]

Yes. Wow.

[Chris Harris]

Episode 15 of season one. It's called game night. Chris also wrote episode five or six. Five. Six. Okay. Awesome.

[Craig Thomas]

I think it was five.

[Chris Harris]

The one in the club with the subtitles. Hilarious episode. You really crushed your season one episodes, Chris.

[Craig Thomas]

This is big numbers. There's another one coming up. There's another one coming up.

[Chris Harris]

So let's put you on the spot right away. We. We often. By the way, what was the air.

[Craig Thomas]

Date of this, Alex?

[Alec Lev]

This is on February 27, 2006.

[Chris Harris]

Ah, a simpler time, Chris. I often ask Craig to do this, but let's just test your memory. Can you give a quick synopsis of what happens in this episode, the log.

[Craig Thomas]

Line of this episode?

[Carter Bays]

Sure I can. Sure I can. We they. During a game night run by Marshall, a secret comes out about Barney. And in order for everyone to hear his story, he gets the most embarrassing moments from each of the other cast members along the way.

[Chris Harris]

Great.

[Craig Thomas]

That's good.

[Carter Bays]

21 minutes. TV 14 closed captioned all right, well done.

[Chris Harris]

We've never had those extras. And do you have any kind of greatest hits? Like, what is your memory of this? Like, in the writer's room. How did this story start? How did it break? What were the main inciting ideas?

[Carter Bays]

I remember it as almost being a little bit of a. The same way Barney's story came out piecemeal. I remember being a little bit of that slog in terms of how to. How to structure it. But starting point, I think Carter and Craig came in with this. Barney's backstory. I think this was one of your. Was this one of your original.

[Craig Thomas]

I don't think it was on that original sheet, but it was definitely, like, in the back of our head about, like, we're gonna peel back the suit and see who that guy used to be before he kind of got in there. And then I don't remember if we kind of had the overt Star wars references at that point or if those came later, but I literally. I think we might have had this. Star wars might have inspired this idea, like seeing Darth Vader become Darth Vader in the third prequel, Revenge of the Sith. That idea of that sequence, I think, may have been the inspiration for, like, just the way we would learn Barney's backstory.

[Carter Bays]

I feel like.

[Chris Harris]

That's right.

[Carter Bays]

I feel like you guys had this amazing notion of, let's tell an origin story for Barney. Let's show how he was a hippie in the late 90s and what turned him into the suit wearing some might say monster that he became. And then I think we had. So we had this great story, and most of the discussion in the room was how do we build up an episode around that that's going. That's going to rival. That's going to rival this story. And I was. I was flipping through. I looked quickly through some of the room notes, which are almost indecipherable. Not just because I love that you have that.

[Craig Thomas]

Did you find that in an old email or something?

[Carter Bays]

No, there's, like, an old folder.

[Craig Thomas]

Deep.

[Carter Bays]

You know, like, I had to peel the cobwebs Away as I dove deeper and deeper into my Mac.

[Craig Thomas]

Yellowing parchment. Like the Constitution.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah, yeah. Earlier and earlier versions of Word Documents. And it felt like we. It looked like we. You know, for a while there was talk about, like, is it all about. They hear about the video, and it's all about trying to track down this video. And Barney's giving them clues about where it might be. So it got very complicated. And then at some point it hit. It hit that. I saw there's a little bullet point that something like, everyone has to tell their story in order to get more of Barney's story.

[Craig Thomas]

And that was from there.

[Carter Bays]

And from there, I think it started to crack. And it was like, oh, it's a game night. And. And March running.

[Craig Thomas]

I remember the feeling that it can't just be that we have this funny backstory. It was, how do we make it interesting in the present tense? And how is there some kind of goal and forward momentum in the present tense? And stakes. And I think in figuring out what are the stakes, we realized, like, Ted and Robin. Ted and Victoria. And that got added on. And then all of a sudden it was an episode. It wasn't just here's a funny clip show of stuff that happened in the past. It's like, it needs to be. We needed a present day conundrum or conundrum, conundrue, plural. And I've never said that word before, but I'm just gonna pretend I say it all the time. And I remember that was hard to find, wasn't it, Chris? I feel like we're hitting our heads against the wall. Like, we had the Darth Vader nugget and we didn't. The rest was actually hard to get.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Do you remember that way?

[Carter Bays]

And you know, looking at it now, because after rewatching, I was like, oh, wow, it's pretty complicated. I mean, because Ted and Robin and Victoria, there's a lot going on. And there are these micro expressions and there's like, things that somebody says that.

[Chris Harris]

Somebody else takes the Ted's story, which is so. Which is great, and it adds to the lore, but it also, like, causes this understandable moment of friction and confusion with Victoria. Like, we. We keep talking about how great it is when you have something like that's both character revealing and plot forwarding and funny all at the same time. Like, that seemed to be the sweet spot for. For these episodes, especially in some of the B stories. Like, we were talking. We. We were talking about another episode where the, like, little moments in the B story actually end up having major consequences for the rest of the.

[Craig Thomas]

Major consequences.

[Carter Bays]

Major consequences.

[Craig Thomas]

It happens in real life, folks. We find them in nature.

[Chris Harris]

And I wrote you this little ditty to sing to you in New York City. We'll be right back. Hey, Craig.

[Craig Thomas]

Hey, yeah. Oh, I didn't see you there.

[Chris Harris]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Listen, I have a feeling there's gonna be two parts to my life story. Yeah, before meundies and after meundies.

[Chris Harris]

Like a real demarcation line.

[Craig Thomas]

See what I'm saying? See what I'm saying? I don't know if you're picking up on this. I've tricked you yet again into another an ad. This one's for me, Undies. And here's the thing. Here's what's happening. We are getting sent to these. You and I both. And our lives are gonna change, Josh. That's gonna happen.

[Chris Harris]

How do we know? If only there was someone we could ask that has a long relationship with meundies.

[Craig Thomas]

Anybody on this podcast right now that might.

[Carter Bays]

What?

[Chris Harris]

Alec? Our producer, Alec Lev, is raising his hand.

[Alec Lev]

Guys, I don't think I was clear. We did one of. This is our second meundies ad, and I'm very excited about it because I have worn nothing but meundies.

[Craig Thomas]

Please put on some additional clothes. By the way, if anyone's watching on YouTube, you'll see Alex only wearing.

[Alec Lev]

I've got one pair.

[Carter Bays]

It's got.

[Alec Lev]

It's got a couple of cells left to it. I've been wearing it since the pandemic.

[Carter Bays]

Here.

[Alec Lev]

I just. These are the greatest underwears. Sorry, I don't know what.

[Chris Harris]

They're. Underwears.

[Craig Thomas]

It's happening.

[Alec Lev]

They are. They are. They are. They are comfortable. I'm not reading anything. They are. We have something that we're supposed to read. I'm just telling you they're incredibly comfortable.

[Craig Thomas]

You have said this off mic.

[Alec Lev]

They are. They are the best. I'll tell you. Here. Here's the way I think about it. You go through your day, you're not really thinking about your underwear.

[Carter Bays]

You shouldn't be.

[Alec Lev]

You should be living your life.

[Chris Harris]

You shouldn't be thinking about your underwear.

[Craig Thomas]

I don't want to think about your underwear.

[Chris Harris]

No, no, no.

[Alec Lev]

You should be thinking about my underwear. But if I stop to think about this underwear, like in the moment, the ball caddy, it's got me. It's got. It's got things where they're supposed to go. It's the ultra modal.

[Craig Thomas]

I was gonna ask you, Alec, is it the ultramodal ball caddy? Boxer briefs that is what it is. Now I'm off book on that.

[Alec Lev]

They're tight on the. Just the right grip, I want to say on the legs and really everywhere.

[Chris Harris]

Would you describe them as game changing and designed for next level support with no squishing, no sticking, no clumping, just pure clumping cloud, like comfort. Is that how you would describe them?

[Alec Lev]

Are you, are you looking into my soul right now, Josh? Because that.

[Chris Harris]

I just feel like I've known you long enough that I can.

[Alec Lev]

We've known each other a while. We've known each other since before I was a me undies kind of guy.

[Chris Harris]

So like you were. I. I will say this. You were a grumpy character back.

[Craig Thomas]

You were full of hate. Full of hate. Very bitter all.

[Chris Harris]

But there is a lightness to you that I have noticed.

[Alec Lev]

There's a fluff, there's a lightness.

[Craig Thomas]

Like I said, pre meundies and post me undies. That's how life gets defined. Now listen guys, I think we've talked a long time about this, so I'm going to say this. Now slide into game changing comfort with meundies. Support the show by going to meundies.comyourmother and using my code, your mother. We're saying the words your mother a lot as pertains to undies, which. Let's just move. We're going to move through. We're going to run through the bees to get 20% off your first order plus free shipping. That's Meundies.com your mother. Code your mother for 20% off plus free shipping. Meundies. Comfort from the outside in. Josh, how much do you think about your wardrobe when you're on tour playing shows or night to night or how much are you thinking about what am I wearing while I'm playing this, this show?

[Chris Harris]

Not a lot because I actually packed, I underpacked because I was worried that I would have too much merch to take back. So I left a lot of room in my suitcase and I. But I didn't.

[Craig Thomas]

Funny.

[Chris Harris]

Yeah. But I also, I'm. I'm. My style is very casual, but I also, I sometimes overthink it, you know?

[Craig Thomas]

Uhhuh.

[Chris Harris]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Well, you know what?

[Chris Harris]

It's more about comfort. You know what I'm saying?

[Craig Thomas]

It's more about comfort. Everything you just said, I've got the solution for it. Ready? Yeah, I know it's not my solution. This is a commercial for quince. Yes. With quince you can get a high end style upgrade with versatile pieces at prices that don't break the bank. That sounds my words.

[Chris Harris]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Chris Harris]

Quince has all the. All the must haves, like Mongolian cashmere sweaters from $50 iconic hundred percent leather jackets. I thought that was gonna say leather pants. And I was like, are those back? Leather jackets for 100 bucks and comfortable pants for every occasion. And also stuff that you can get your wife, which I did. Which you didn't. But I got.

[Craig Thomas]

I know we got a free thing for. From Quince and they were both. So they were nice enough to give us stuff. I ordered myself a lovely sweater for me. And then Josh was like, I got something for my wife. And I felt like the worst person in the world. So, Quince, we'll talk. We'll side. Quince, we'll side. I'm addressing Quince directly now. We'll sidebar against for my wife. Hey, listen to this. The best part. All Quinn's Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands.

[Chris Harris]

By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us.

[Craig Thomas]

And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices. That's great. Along with premium fabrics and finishes. I will say I enjoyed my sweater so much that was free that I went and bought some. A couple pairs of jeans and those were great, too. I'm just throwing that in there. Quince, you can send me more free stuff, too, or my wife. Just my wife.

[Chris Harris]

Indulge in affordable luxury. Go to quince.comyourmother for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N C E.com your mother to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comyourmother and now back to the show. I have a question for you, though. So just so we know how writers rooms work, so you crack a story, do you have a beginning, middle and end by the time you go off to write the first draft?

[Carter Bays]

Definitely. That doesn't mean it doesn't change. But we absolutely. Carter and Craig ran a room. And I've tried to do the same when I've been lucky enough to run shows where let's make sure that this story is as solid as we can possibly make it, and let's beat out every single scene, know what the jokes are, know what the A to B of each scene is, and really feel great about it. Because as you know, everything gets thrown at you, whether it's. Whether it's notes from studio, network or suddenly a Big set piece that you thought was going to be hysterical turns out to not be that hysterical. So you have to believe in that internal structure, that basic structure of the story as much as possible. Now, that doesn't mean that sometimes we do sort of say, oh, you know what? This isn't working the way we thought it did. But, yeah, they were, you know, so the. The. And I'm sure you've heard this before, but, like, you know, the episode has my name on it, but it's got contributions from every writer in it. Every writer. It's been through the room multiple, multiple times. By the time. Especially by the time we get it to air.

[Chris Harris]

This is probably a question you'll be uncomfortable answering, but I want you to try. Are there moments from that draft that made it into the show, that made it onto the air, that are Chris Harris, that are pure Chris Harris, that you're like, I'm excited and happy about this?

[Craig Thomas]

So many. I would say. I don't want Chris to be shy. So many. Chris has such a high hit rate of that. In every script he wrote for us.

[Chris Harris]

Sing your praises.

[Carter Bays]

There's so much that was other people. I can say that.

[Craig Thomas]

Watch him do this. Watch him take no credit. I know. I see all that's happening.

[Carter Bays]

Marshall being really good at games. And the what runner. I am the one runner pretty sure was. Was me sitting. Sitting alone in a. Either in a cafe or a restaurant somewhere, giggling to myself.

[Chris Harris]

The what runner is funnier every time. It's like a staircase of laughter. It's.

[Craig Thomas]

I want to say that it's such a Chris Harris joke. Chris Harris is a master at creating these Rube Goldberg machines, sort of joke delivery systems that are like, bing, click, click. And you know this thing is going to make this sound at this time, and this thing can come and what's.

[Chris Harris]

The one Marshall says? He doesn't say what he says when.

[Carter Bays]

Is that what Robin says? Which I had not. Did not remember.

[Craig Thomas]

That made me laugh the hardest of.

[Chris Harris]

Anything that you said last night.

[Carter Bays]

That was my 2. I totally total came out of the blue. I mean, watching the whole episode, it kind of. There's a little part of me that made me depressed because I like to think that my writing is getting better and better, and over the years, I've just improved. But I watched the episode. I was like, ah, damn it. That might be you guys. All day.

[Chris Harris]

2006 was my year.

[Carter Bays]

2000, my year. I'm so far over the hill.

[Chris Harris]

It's not often that you can point to the moment you Peaked. But this is it. That was it.

[Carter Bays]

It's just been a very. Thankfully, a very slow decline.

[Craig Thomas]

But why did we keep around eight more years after that in slow decline.

[Carter Bays]

Ever since pitching that what Joke over and over again. Now it's a callback and people will love it.

[Chris Harris]

You know, I love. Not only. Not only is Marshall great at games. My first big laugh of the. When he screams Yahtzee. Like that's a pure seagull. Just like, they probably didn't write it that way. It's just like a weird take and such a fun word to scream. But where did you guys come up with. Marshall is so good at games, he's invented his own. Which crazily enough, I never even thought of this. Did that freak Lily out? Given what her father. You guys didn't know that Lily's dad was amazing chasing board game fortunes.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah. We later arrived at the idea that Chris Elliott, as her dad, would have been this board game inventor and realized there was this kind of overlap. Like she did marry her D.

[Carter Bays]

She's.

[Craig Thomas]

Trying to like run away from the game. We realized that very retroactively though. I'm not even. I'm not sure we did that on purpose at all.

[Carter Bays]

It was just like.

[Chris Harris]

But that's another one of those, like those unconscious writer connections that you're making.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah, I don't remember. That's hysterical. I never thought about that.

[Chris Harris]

So where did. I thought it was particularly funny that Marshall is so good at games, he has to invent his own. Like, where did that come from? Marsh Gammon.

[Carter Bays]

I remember originally it was Marshopoly or Marshalopoly. And we could not get the rights cleared to Marshalopoli. And I remember we were actually on set and we had like. We were allowed to use Candyland visually, but something about the opoly was just throwing legal for a loop.

[Chris Harris]

So you've had to go back to a game that's been around for thousands of years. We had to go back to the Mesopotamians. Didn't copyright backgammon.

[Carter Bays]

Norenced lawyers took their time. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Who would have thought the Monopoly people would play real corporate hardball about something.

[Chris Harris]

You should have paid them in Monopoly money seeing if they would have taken it.

[Carter Bays]

That's why there are so few games that end with opoly.

[Craig Thomas]

Rebecca had a question, Chris. She said, did Chris Harris really hate backgammon that much? Remember Marshall's like weirdly rage filled dig at backgammon? I feel like maybe you did hate backgammon that much. Am I right?

[Carter Bays]

I don't think so. In fact, I looked well, one. I think that if I had to pick. I think that's your joke, Craig. I could be wrong.

[Craig Thomas]

Really?

[Carter Bays]

I think so.

[Craig Thomas]

Man. Theater.

[Carter Bays]

In the first draft, he was just as angry about Monopoly, which might have been me. I might have hated Monopoly enough. But then we just moved that hatred over to a different.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God. Well, if it was. If that had anything to do with me, I literally, to this day, don't really know what backgammon is. So I can't say I hold any vitriol against something I don't understand. But I think the being really good at games came from you a little Chris, didn't it? Because just to share this, and we can edit this out if you want. You're a bit of a. You're a game guy. You're a scavenger hunt guy. You are an adult, elevated. Travel to another city you don't live in, scavenger hunt guy. True or false?

[Carter Bays]

Why would you want to edit this out?

[Chris Harris]

Why?

[Carter Bays]

Do you think this isn't interesting to people about how much I like puzzles and games? No, I do.

[Craig Thomas]

Right.

[Carter Bays]

I love puzzles. I did. Yeah. I used to do these hunts where you drive around for 30 hours in a van with a team going from clue to clue solving other puzzles. 30 hours. It's crazy. And Neil has a little bit. We had a little bit of overlap with that too.

[Chris Harris]

You know, it's also, I mean, a lot of writers like Stephen Sondheim very famously was a huge crossword puzzle guy. Right. And I think there's something about the brain, the comedy brain or the lyricist brain, that when things land in the right place, it's so satisfying. Right.

[Carter Bays]

There's a little bit of a puzzle to it. Yeah. And thinking. Yeah. When you're did all sorts of things. Yeah.

[Chris Harris]

When you're 15 episodes into a 22 episode season, it is a puzzle because you have this dictate like, okay, we have to get the plot here, we have to move the plot here. We have to have it funny. And it has to be self contained. If you're just tuning in for this one episode, we want audiences to kind of follow it. But you also want to reward people who've been watching from episode one. Like, there is a lot of puzzle.

[Carter Bays]

Making and that's a huge challenge. And Craig, I don't know how much you've talked about that, but, like, balancing the serialized nature of the show with the episodic nature of the show was a huge challenge in the first season.

[Craig Thomas]

And we never Tried to go this deep back into somebody's past. A character's past either. So this episode was new. We hadn't gone like this really digs into Barney ten years prior. Ten more. However many years prior, we'd never done that move. While also trying to establish Ted and Victoria's relationship is moving forward. Robin. It feels weird toward Victoria. We need to plant some seeds of trouble for Ted and Victoria looking ahead, which this does. The DNA of their breakup is written in this little teeny tiny moment in this episode. There was a little bit lot to do while also doing the Darth Vader story.

[Chris Harris]

There's another thing that you guys did that I thought was really sly, which is like Marshall's clearly rigging the game to interrogate. He's the ultimate authority on marsh gammon. So people are like, okay, I guess, you know, it's the person to your left Autobiography. Like the switching it to always be about quizzing her. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Chris, do you remember when you. When you went off to write this episode, was there any aspect of, like, was your feeling like. We knew the Barney part would be funny. The flashbacks. We knew hippie Barney would be funny. You know, that's the raw red meat. And so do you almost like, do you feel like, well, we got that. So I need to make sure the present day stuff is equal to that or is like moving things forward in another way. Like the structure of Barney demanding offerings for to unlock each new board game level of this story. That's such a great structure. I forget whose that was and if that was yours or not. But that idea of, like, need the character. Like it's a series of keys.

[Chris Harris]

It's a sphinx kind of riddle. Kind of like you have to make a. Make an offering to get to the next level.

[Carter Bays]

And I don't know who did it. I'm pretty sure I didn't. Because in my head, I think I would have written it much more formal and structured and not as good. I think I would have written it as if. As he said, okay, if you each tell me a story that I'm going to about your own most embarrassing moment, then I will. Each time you do that, then, like, I would have made it a very formal thing. And in the episode, it comes out very organically. Like, the first one is just Barney saying, no, I don't want to do it. And Marshall sort of stepping forward voluntarily. It felt much better than I would have written it. So I know that that was part of the breaking of the story. Was like, oh, yeah. Each person makes an Offering. And Barney rewards that offering with another piece of his story. But, yeah, definitely was a group effort there.

[Chris Harris]

I'm sure we talked about also How I Met yout mother. It was 2005, 2006. This first season. It was almost like the first time it was appropriate to. To parody the 90s or look at the 90s as a period piece. Like, I really think it wasn't. We weren't. It was like, oh, can we do that? Like, it still felt like we had one foot in the 90s, but there was enough. There was just enough distance for it to look like. What was the. What are the things called? The shirt. The. The hemp hoodies with. Do they have a name?

[Carter Bays]

It's a great question, but they were everywhere.

[Chris Harris]

Everywhere, Everywhere.

[Carter Bays]

And I will say that watching it, I was like. I couldn't believe how much. I mean, that was one great thing about the show is everyone in every department went all in. The wardrobe was amazing. Barney's hair was amazing.

[Craig Thomas]

Baja hoodie.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah. Oh, Baja hoodie. Oh, fantastic.

[Craig Thomas]

There was, like 20 of those guy in every. That guy in every college. Right. In the 90s. That was totally. I think it was a Baja hood.

[Alec Lev]

Though I do see an alternate of drug rug.

[Craig Thomas]

Drug rug. Okay.

[Carter Bays]

Amazing.

[Craig Thomas]

Neil, the hair and makeup was amazing. The word was amazing. And his physicalization, Neil's physical take on that character, he became a different human being. His body was completely different. It was so good. His every expression, every molecule of him was a different guy. It was so well done by him.

[Chris Harris]

I also had forgotten Katie Walden. That's who played Shannon. She was so good.

[Craig Thomas]

She's really good. Yeah.

[Carter Bays]

She also had that transformation that she had to do, too.

[Chris Harris]

Yeah. And when she comes back in in that red, like, power suit kind of corporate outfit, it's so great.

[Craig Thomas]

I forgot that she says legendary, too. She's the one. She. I forgot that you had her saying legendary.

[Carter Bays]

We threw every origin story that we could, and it's amazing that it was, like, only 15 episodes in how much we had. Okay, we got sued up. We're gonna throw in there with legendary high five. I mean, it's basically like that first opening sequence of the third Indiana Jones where they're just like that. The whip.

[Chris Harris]

Snakes.

[Carter Bays]

Snakes.

[Chris Harris]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

It was totally that. It was totally that.

[Chris Harris]

You know what? I also thought this is a shout out to Shout out to casting. The guy who plays the suit guy who he mistakes for her father was, like, really perfectly cast because he has to be plausible both as someone Barney could look at and go, oh, this guy has something figured out. And also from. From the back, he's like. He looks older. Like, it was a deft kind of casting bit, I thought.

[Alec Lev]

Craig, can I ask, did you know before the show started roughly what Barney's origin story was? Or just did you decide you needed one and it was in this room that you figured it out?

[Craig Thomas]

I think we knew he was a very different guy at some point. The specificity of making him that much of a hippie and, like, just allowing ourselves to be kids in a candy store with those jokes. Chris, I feel like that we found in the room. Right. Because I think we said he wasn't this guy. He was sensitive, he had his heart broken. Something made him. He was Anakin Skywalker before Emperor Palpatine had sort of, like, dragged him in totally. But I think the specificity of getting him that hippy ish and allowing ourselves to, like, push it a little bit, that came from the Ripple.

[Carter Bays]

And it was so fun to write. Yeah. I don't give high fives. I only give high twos. Yeah.

[Chris Harris]

Was that you, Chris? High twos?

[Carter Bays]

I'd like to think it was, but I. But it was basically. Let's collect all these. All these cliches and all these twists on who Barney is versus who he was. And it was like, you said it was a candy store because there was so much to work with and. Yeah. And then watching Neil embody, it was just insane.

[Chris Harris]

I forget, was it in the script or was it a Neil choice to call it Nicaragua?

[Carter Bays]

Oh, that was Neil.

[Chris Harris]

That was Neil.

[Craig Thomas]

That was Neil.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah.

[Chris Harris]

That was so funny.

[Craig Thomas]

He was just going for it, getting away with it.

[Carter Bays]

As I recall, he was super sick for at least part of the taping. Like, I remember he had the flu or something, but was just, like, convalescing in between takes, but then would just sort of bring it in. And he's devastated about Shannon.

[Chris Harris]

It makes sense.

[Craig Thomas]

I know it probably helped his devastation and, like, crying and looking all, like, fucked up.

[Carter Bays]

He's, like, snotting and crying.

[Craig Thomas]

That moment when you see that tape first and he's a hippie. It is such information overload. When you see he. You barely recognize him. He's a hippie. He's at a piano. His hair is long, he's got the shitty soul patch, and he's singing a song and crying. It's so in the deep end right away. You're just jumping into the deep end.

[Chris Harris]

When you hear Shannon gave me a tape and he freaks out, you're, like, certain it's a sex Tape.

[Craig Thomas]

It's got an embarrassing one because otherwise.

[Chris Harris]

Not his best work.

[Craig Thomas]

Not his best work. That's it. His reaction of freaking out about that tape and then trying to be casual is so funny.

[Chris Harris]

And then where's the tape? I love where's the tape. But Lily's switcheroo on him. Like, I thought this might happen. Graduation. That's also a great. That's revealing of Lily's kind of forethought. Like knowing Barney. It's reveal of Barney. His thing in the episode. And it's also like, it's revealing of Ted. Like. Like he's sentimental. He wants his graduation shape. Like now it's destroyed. You know, you're right. It's like a three for. Right.

[Carter Bays]

If it was somebody else, they wouldn't care if it was right. It was Robin's graduate. Who cares? But. But Ted, you could just see and just that it's just a one little quick shot. The wounded double taking. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Chris Harris]

And he can't do anything about it. Yeah.

[Alec Lev]

Who would have written the song? Because I know Craig, you and Carter usually were.

[Craig Thomas]

We didn't write that. Chris. I think Chris just wrote funny lyrics. And our. Our wonderful composer John Swihart. Or yeah. Would have put music to that one. That was not fun.

[Carter Bays]

I think it was written in the room. And I honestly, I think Spryheart did an amazing job. I don't know if we took the care that we learned that we could and the fun that we had writing the like later songs we just spent like, you know, you just got slapped and super dated. Like it was so fun to do every single lyric. And here I think. I don't know if we were under the gun or not, but we. Yeah, we just wrote it.

[Craig Thomas]

And there's only a little bit of that song. I feel like later we would have like put out the full like 3 minute version of that. So we didn't realize that move yet.

[Chris Harris]

We would have had a website with a series of songs. The album he made for her.

[Craig Thomas]

We missed a bet that we can admit. We missed a big bet there for sure. Do you know what else I was thinking about? The structure of this one that I loved. I remember it feeling like how do we make the present day move? Right. We were talking about that earlier that the dilemma of how do you. You can't just have it be a clip show. You need stuff happening in the present. I love that the end of the story happens tonight where we catch up to the present day. And Barney actually. And remember we felt it important that he had taken a video so it clear he really had done this. This was not invented.

[Carter Bays]

Totally.

[Craig Thomas]

The idea that the story ends. The story begins in 1997, whenever it begins. And it ends like a half hour before he started the story in the. In the bar. That was. I feel like that unlocked it because it. It literally connected the past story to tonight. Literally tonight. I remember that being a moment of breaking the story, of feeling like this will work.

[Carter Bays]

And I definitely don't take credit for that. That was definitely either you or Carter. But the. Yeah, I remember thinking about it and seeing like, oh, he couldn't have done the video evidence a few years earlier. Like, that's how new the phone you can look at. You can see by the phone how new it was.

[Chris Harris]

Also, we're doing a little bit, Chris, on this show of atonement for things that were perhaps ill advised. I'm pretty sure that's like a felony. You know what I mean? Like, I'm pretty sure.

[Craig Thomas]

Definitely.

[Chris Harris]

Actually, you can't do that. That.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, you can't do that.

[Carter Bays]

Oh, there's plenty to atone for. I mean, yeah, there's the. I won't get into specifics, but yeah, there are times when I've been watching with my kids and I'm just, oh.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, that's not the best.

[Chris Harris]

But it's also like, you keep expecting. And this is. Neil's so good at the fake. Like, he's so good at playing one thing and then pulling the rug out from under it. But you keep expecting, like, some sort of self reflection that brings him back to a place of basic human decency. And he always doubles down on, like, making the right choice. Wearing suits and sleeping with tons of women and saying is like the. The choice is the way to be.

[Carter Bays]

It. It looks. Yeah, it looks like he's. Oh, he's having that moment and then he just sort of looks up and it's. It's the. That 180.

[Chris Harris]

He's a bit of. He's. He's a bit of the. The Seinfeld dictate. You know, no hugging, no learning. Like Neil, for a long time.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah.

[Chris Harris]

Is no hugging, no learning.

[Carter Bays]

But in his own bubble because. But on the show itself, watching it last night, I was like, oh, he's totally broken. He's totally. He's totally.

[Craig Thomas]

That's my defense of all this.

[Carter Bays]

He thinks he's awesome, but he's clearly going through some stuff. Obviously, Shannon wasn't that much of a villain, but that's what he's got in his head about all women. And he's. I don't know. I felt closer to almost Lily's view of him by the end of watching it this time around. And I'm not sure what I remember thinking.

[Craig Thomas]

Everything Barney does comes out of hurt and scars and being broken. Every single thing he does. And a lot of what he does, he makes up and he didn't really do. We felt it important, this one, that he had some evidence that he had actually found him because even he realized how far fetched it sound. It is not the best move that a guy could do, that's for sure. It's the worst thing, but it comes from being broken.

[Chris Harris]

One of the meta questions of the show is, like, how reliable is the show based on. It's older Ted narrating this, but, like, are we watching the real thing that happened, or are we watching older Ted's version and somewhat sanitized version of the thing that happened to tell his children in the same way in this episode, you could question, like, how much of the, like, Barney's telling the story.

[Carter Bays]

And I totally questioned it. Probably even more than we shot it as I was watching it last night, where it's like, obviously, she's not coming in. Suddenly, like, I've totally changed because I met one. I don't know. It just felt like it was Barney's view of this woman as opposed to what actually happened. I was fascinating. Oh, and by the way, in an earlier draft, he slept with her mother instead of her. I don't know why, just I think cutting out the middleman was better. Yeah, there are all these, like, little draft, like, you wrote that it got into at least an outline.

[Craig Thomas]

At least an outline.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah, it's all the crazy dead ends and things. No, no, no. Just have him sleep with her.

[Craig Thomas]

All right? He sleeps with her. It has to be that he's Barney.

[Chris Harris]

Yeah, yeah, I had. I really like the line at Ted's line. You guys have been like, the parents. I still haven't moved here to get.

[Craig Thomas]

Away from, like, that line. That's a Chris Harris line for sure.

[Chris Harris]

I think that's a great line.

[Carter Bays]

It feels like. It feels like it's got a little.

[Craig Thomas]

It's very clever to it.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah, yeah, It's. It's much too long for what someone would say in reality in that moment. So, yes, I agree that that does.

[Chris Harris]

I also loved Robin. Switch on. Prudler alert. Slut alert.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, that's Craig. I don't remember anything, I think.

[Carter Bays]

Or Carter.

[Craig Thomas]

I was drunk for a lot of this.

[Chris Harris]

I love Bar Neil does so many, like, little subtle, crazy things, but his trembling lower lip in the video, trembling.

[Craig Thomas]

Lower lip was unbelievable.

[Chris Harris]

It's unbelievable. It's like. It's literally like a ballet dancer of the face. Like, how does he even. He has such, like, technical control of his instrument. Like, just all physically. I'm always.

[Craig Thomas]

I rewound and re. Watch that. I watched that twice last night watching it because I couldn't. I couldn't believe it. I had forgotten how insane that chin was. And that's the goatee going.

[Chris Harris]

And this old man, he must admit he fell in love with you. New York City.

[Craig Thomas]

And now commercials.

[Carter Bays]

Close your eyes, exhale. Feel your body relax, and let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh, my gosh, they're so fast.

[Chris Harris]

And breathe.

[Carter Bays]

Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw.

[Josh Radnor]

The discount they gave me on my first order.

[Carter Bays]

Oh, sorry. Namaste.

[Craig Thomas]

Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order.

[Chris Harris]

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[Carter Bays]

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[Chris Harris]

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[Carter Bays]

Not available in all states.

[Craig Thomas]

End of commercials. Back to ship.

[Chris Harris]

I heard Martin Short say something years ago that always stayed with me. He said the cliche about theater acting is you need to be as big as you can. And the cliche about film acting is you be as small as you can. He says. I think of it as the reverse. In the theater, you're trying to be as subtle as you can and still get it to the back row. Whereas in film, you want to be as big and expressive as you can without being too big for the camera.

[Carter Bays]

For the lens, Right?

[Chris Harris]

And I really think, like, Neil is a master at scale. Like, he knows, like, if he knows when the camera's back. And he, like, one of the great, I think, physical comedy things I've ever seen was Neil, after running the marathon, trying to stand.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God.

[Chris Harris]

Like, it's an unbelievable physical comedian feat, right? But I also think he knew, like, when the camera was super up close on him, he knew how to give the trembling lip in such a way that it's. It can hold the camera can hold it, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

It's fantastic. And his walk, just his walk across that cafe, like, his, his just. It was so specific and weird and different.

[Chris Harris]

It just showed. He revolutionized his entire personality. Like, there wasn't a thing about himself that he didn't throw out and start over again as. As new Barney.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Alec Lev]

You know, and of course I remember. And of course I remember your story that in his audition he did a somersault.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Alec Lev]

I mean, the physical comedy was part of it from the beginning.

[Craig Thomas]

Literally from the audition he was doing like shoulder rolls across like people, casting directors, you know, offices. He, he's. Do you remember him being super game to do this, Chris? Do you remember, like, was this like a kid in the candy store for him too? Was he like, really.

[Carter Bays]

He was really excited and you could tell, like, like, like, so there's so many little. Like just him kicking the trash can when he's upset, walking down the street, hurting his foot and hurting his foot and, and that lasts for a few steps. He was, he was, he, he. He took it as the, as the gift that we were hoping for.

[Craig Thomas]

And when that sequence begins and that sort Darth Vader music kind of kicks in and takes me into that sequence, you know, you're really in for the ride at that point. Like, that's such a satisfying moment when that sequence begins. It's like this whole episode has been leading to this. This is gonna work. And the idea to play that all in that kind of white limbo space is really avant garde and weird. Do you remember how we quite got it's. Cause it was the Darth Vader thing.

[Chris Harris]

Which it's almost like the return of the shirt montage. It's like things that you can't do when they're 200 people on, you know, high on candy in a live taping. Like that is where How I Met yout Mother became like this weird cinematic hybrid of, you know, a sitcom, a classic sitcom with like all these cinematic elements.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah, yeah. And no idea where that, where that white background came from, but it was awesome. And then John Swihart, the composer, just doing that perfect sort of boom, boom, boom, boom. Just caring, you know, exactly what you're watching.

[Chris Harris]

I also liked how the suit was all dark, like an all black suit, basically.

[Carter Bays]

Never, never would have said that, but never would have chosen that. But yeah, it's great.

[Craig Thomas]

So Darth Vader. It's the suit Darth Vader would wear.

[Chris Harris]

Speaking of clothes, this is a silly throwaway. I really like Marshall's sweater, the little orange dog I did have a moment.

[Craig Thomas]

Where I said, what's happening with that dog? I forgot.

[Chris Harris]

I like it.

[Craig Thomas]

I thought it was cool about it in my house.

[Chris Harris]

Oh, really? I'm. I'm pro. I'm team. Team Marshall sweat.

[Carter Bays]

You're a fantastic drunk, Josh. And I mean that in the most respectful way. That is really hard to do. Like, going back to that. To the re return night was.

[Craig Thomas]

God, that I forgot how big. That's a big deal that we revealed that too. That he re returned that night of the pilot. And then we dive back into the pilot. I was like, fuck. I forgot that we also do that in this episode. Like, it's sort of like, do you.

[Chris Harris]

Know what I was hooked on? There's a lot of. I was like, they've been drinking a lot in this bar, including Ranjit, who then drives. I was like, wait a minute. This can't be safe. That is a great observation.

[Carter Bays]

Another atonement session, I guess.

[Chris Harris]

Don't drink and drive, kids.

[Carter Bays]

Don't drink and drive.

[Craig Thomas]

Don't film people without them knowing. Yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot of things to not do on this show.

[Chris Harris]

Do you know what I mean? There's so many little funny things. And I mean, the. What is so funny? But I loved. We're not quitting just because Ted's so far ahead and he says I was winning. Like, no one has any idea how to play this game except Marshall, which is. It's probably not even a real game.

[Craig Thomas]

But that made me laugh. The idea that there's mayonnaise and the cookies. I mean, we're playing off the seven layer salad a little bit there. Right? We're kind of calling it. She puts mayonnaise in everything and she mixes sweet dishes.

[Chris Harris]

The slide in of Marshall's mom is fantastic.

[Craig Thomas]

Just dying inside. Yeah, that was funny.

[Chris Harris]

Well, I just thought also, this episode is a little bit, like, there. There's got to be a term for it. I call it, like, filling in the lore. But it's like how I met everyone else. Remember that episode? Like, yeah, like, just. Yeah, you know, we. You guys created a show, Craig, that had such an ability to make so many different moves. You could zip forward, you could zip back, you could forget a piece of information, go, oh, I forgot to tell you this part. Like, you really granted yourself, like, a real superpower narratively.

[Craig Thomas]

This episode had more of them than I remembered. Like, Victoria's being omitted and just cutting a black screen, you know, that was great.

[Chris Harris]

Right, right.

[Carter Bays]

And that was out of necessity. I really Cause I saw, I found a story that she told and deep in it again, like hurting the cobwebs of my map of my Mac. And it was okay. This was much better.

[Craig Thomas]

It was much better to not say it.

[Carter Bays]

Much better to just not say it. So it was born of necessity. But yeah, I feel like this was something. I think that's Superpower Josh that you talk about is really cool because I think in later episodes and seasons, the storytelling, there was a little bit more discovery. Oh, here's what we can do. And you look at trilogy time, you look at how he met everyone else. You look at all these other flashback and ways that flashbacks and flash forward were used. One where Sagat or where older Ted completely gets every moment wrong and can't remember things. And I feel like this was just us still in the shallow end almost most, but having a lot of fun as we're discovering it.

[Chris Harris]

I mean, there's a funny. I'm always struck by how invested Lily and Marshall are, especially in the early seasons in Ted and his lore and being a part of his story and getting him partnered off so they can be on that front porch together, which they haven't even talked about, but it's clearly at play and Marshall's hurt over. I thought you were vomit free. Like, you're not. You weren't.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God, the betrayal.

[Carter Bays]

It was a discussion in the room, as I recall. Like, but like, but wait, we can't tell the story because Ted is vomit free since 93.

[Chris Harris]

Isn't that funny that that's your grown up professional job sitting around with other grownups debating like, no, we established that he was vomit free since 93.

[Carter Bays]

Sorry.

[Chris Harris]

How do we get around this? This is just for people who love the blooper reel. But I remember I could not say the green testicle story thing like on the blooper reel. There's like I say it like five times in the wrong way. Like, what got you about it?

[Craig Thomas]

Did you start la.

[Chris Harris]

You just got it wrong. Are you saying testicle in the wrong place? Is it. Is it green testicle?

[Craig Thomas]

Is that green testicle?

[Carter Bays]

Green testicle.

[Craig Thomas]

I want to hear that story.

[Chris Harris]

We'll have to. Someone who knows the blooper reel better than I do will have to look at season one bloopers.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah, that's from. I didn't do the. The ultimate Frisbee part. I think was was either room or you, Craig. Green testicle is literally from a guy in my freshman dorm who had a like a herniated testicle stuff. Like that and went into the. Went into the. The. The health clinic. It said, it's okay if we have to remove it. It's fine. You've got another one. And we can just replace. We can just insert a green sphere into there, and then your life will be totally normal. And he says he was so horrified and shocked that all I could think of to say was, do you have any other colors?

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God. I forgot that completely.

[Carter Bays]

That is the green testicle story. I couldn't say it's a story.

[Craig Thomas]

Remember that? That's amazing.

[Chris Harris]

Isn't it also so great? Obviously, your comedic sensibility, your sense of structure, like all of that is a talent. That's why that part of why you're in a writer's room on a great show. But also every little weird thing that happened in your life might be admissible.

[Craig Thomas]

You could get onto tv.

[Carter Bays]

Love it.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Chris Harris]

Do you know what I mean? Like, it's just like a collection of, like, throw your best stories in the pot here.

[Craig Thomas]

I thought that was an invented, funny phrase, Chris. I forgot that that really happened. Now I'm sitting here going, did they really cut out the guy's testicle?

[Carter Bays]

Because he twisted.

[Craig Thomas]

Like, he must have come out of that with two testicles. I'm thinking, right.

[Carter Bays]

He did. It ended up being okay. It was just a scare.

[Craig Thomas]

But I forgot that was real. That's amazing.

[Carter Bays]

That is the best part of. One of the best parts of doing what we do in general, is, like, we get to share our favorite stories or our silliest ideas with others, hopefully to entertain them. And, yeah, anytime we draw from real life, it's a good sign, because if we're still remembering it, then it's got the emotion that.

[Chris Harris]

It's also like something humiliating gets repurposed for joy. So it's like nothing is wasted. You know what I mean? Yeah.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah.

[Chris Harris]

Okay.

[Carter Bays]

The green testicle guy was me. You're right.

[Chris Harris]

I also, you know, speaking about Barney, you think he's going to transform? We've talked about this, Craig, but I remember this great editor I worked with on both my movies, Michael Miller. He talked about the difference between film and tv or one of the main differences. On TV shows, a transformation has to be much slower because you're trying to establish these characters, and they have their groove, they have their lane, and you slowly, slowly transform them, but you can't transform them too quickly or the show is over. Whereas in a movie, you've got to transform them in 90 minutes or two hours. Like. Like, transformation happens much speedier. And I, you know, thinking about you plant the seeds for. Okay, there's a different guy underneath this suit. The suit is armor. The suit is a character. He's playing at being a villain on some level. But it's a, it's a, it's a, a character he's not done playing. He's going to keep playing it. So tune in next week. He's still going to be this guy. Guy.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah. And eventually over time, he's got. We saw more and more. We really got back to Barney's childhood and we saw, we really saw where that guy began, you know, where all the wounds went and sort of connected that through line. But the gift of long form TV is getting to discover that, getting to peel back those layers. We didn't know all of that. We didn't know Barney was a hippie until we said, that'd be funny. It'd be funny to have him in.

[Chris Harris]

That way the next eight years. Like you, you, you then, then almost like the vomit free. Like you have to contend with the things you lay down because they have a cascade of consequences from them.

[Craig Thomas]

Paint yourself into a corner and that will leave you. The necessity is the mother of invention. Like you have. Make yourself solve that problem. Yeah. And Chris, I feel like you in. Okay, awesome. I remember the moment where we realized the narrator could have forgotten to tell you a crucial detail. Oh, by the way, he had this dental procedure earlier in the day and you freeze. And we are still finding it. We're finding the moves. And this episode is the template for so many of those future roundtable flashback episodes where we learned you need a present day conundrum. You know what I mean? The flashbacks need to have twists and turns of their own. You need each flashback to be different one from the other. You need to be really moving the story forward in the present or else it's just like a clip show. This was us figuring out how to do that kind of episode. We did a whole bunch more. Kind of like it was so fun.

[Carter Bays]

And you're right, we were sort of clawing away in some feeling our way in the dark. I remember at some point in the room just us realizing, oh, the flashback can't just show what we just said it was going to show. There needs to be a twist. I've seen that pitfall in other places.

[Chris Harris]

Me too.

[Carter Bays]

And yeah, I think you're right that present day story is the most important thing because that's what's carrying you through the great story in the past.

[Alec Lev]

In regards to this talk of Barney and his origin story. Josh, would you like to introduce Chris to this, our very important section?

[Chris Harris]

Yeah. This is a. A now beloved section of the show that we like to call Questions and Observations from a Clinical psychologist who's never seen How I Met yout Mother and also happens to be married to Josh.

[Rebecca]

This episode to me is really like the Barney origin story. And I think it's great. It gave me so much more of an understanding of him, explanation for his behavior, for his bravada. It's like, oh, right, it all comes from a broken heart. Of course it does. His insensitivity, quote unquote, you know, is actually a way to protect himself from how deeply sensitive he is and how wounded he was from making himself incredibly vulnerable. So I don't have that much to say other than that. It's a good reminder that this is almost always the case. That the people who present as tough and invulnerable were often once very sensitive, but that part of them has been hurt and has subsequently gone underground.

[Carter Bays]

Not a lot of talk about how handsome the writer of the episode is. But you know, it's like, other than.

[Chris Harris]

That, we had another one and I killed that. I killed that one. I was like, that's. I don't want you doing that one. Do one about Barney.

[Carter Bays]

No, it's a great observation. It's totally.

[Craig Thomas]

You need to see that side of Barney. You need to see that side of Barney. Or he's not interested. Interesting anymore. He's only interesting, I think, because you, we, we get to see where it comes from. I think that's what makes him so much more human.

[Chris Harris]

It's also counterintuitive culturally, especially for men. Like I, I love the phrase rudeness is the weak man's attempt at strength. You know, there's something about, especially in the moment we're in where there's so much confusion about masculinity and what is healthy masculinity. And there's just, you know, there, there's, there's these forward facing, louder men in the world that are much more. Actually, bro, Cody, you know, they're much more kind of. And, and we've, we've gotten in the weeds on some of this, but I'm sure we'll unpack it more. Just like, you know, you guys were, were not holding up Barney as any kind of exemplar of like, male behavior. Like, you were, you were, you know, you guys are all. It was a writer's room of Ted's and Marshalls. You know, the men, right? Like it wasn't. I think it's just useful to remember that vulnerability, especially publicly, is quite difficult and requires an enormous amount of strength. And I think being kind of shut down and rude doesn't. You know. So I don't know. I still. I love and appreciate Barney as a character, but I think you have to watch him with the right understanding.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah, that's interesting. There is that danger of, like, the thing that we're mocking is the thing that people love about the character. Genuinely love, instead of loving to laugh at.

[Craig Thomas]

I think season one, we actually did a very good job of showing Barney to this point. In season one, he has not succeeded in hooking up with that many women. He's been very concerned about whether Ted's his best friend or not. And we learned that he used to be a hippie who had his heart broken. I really like how in season one, we did keep our eye on the ball. I think of this guy. There's a lot underneath that suit. And this episode is basically that. That's the core of this episod is what's underneath that suit. And I think in later seasons, sometimes we lost sight of that for different patches of time and started to lose the kind of ironic distance from it and sometimes did the thing rather than we're ironically commenting on the thing. What I like about this episode is we're saying this is the premise here. The premise here is there is someone who is inside of a Darth Vader costume, and there's more to him than meets the eye. And that's so much more interesting than a guy who just hooks up with lots of women and seems really cool. I want to see who is that guy, really? And that's. That's. What's. That's the best part of this episode.

[Chris Harris]

So. So I'm just curious just from this vantage point. You know, it's been 11 years since the show ended. It's been 20 years since the show premiered. So I'm just curious, like, when you look back on that time, like, what are your biggest memories? What do you. What do you feel when you see How I Met yout Mother in the World? When you hear about all these younger generations discovering the show, I mean, you were at the absolute epicenter of this for the entire run. So, like, what are you. What. Where does How I Met yout Mother live with you? Like, what. What. What are your thoughts on that?

[Carter Bays]

I think one thing that we. One, it was, you know, having been on plenty of shows before and plenty of shows after, if you get a Great show, great people around you, great hours. Like if you get one of those on a show, then you're lucky. One thing we were good at was being aware in the moment of how fortunate we all were to be working with each other. I give Carr and Craig all the credit in the world along with Pam and Susie for, for fostering that, appreciating where we are and what we get to do. And honestly, I've carried, not to sound too mushy, but I've carried that with me for these past decades and I'm incredibly grateful for it. I was talking at a school a few days ago and this teacher in his probably mid twenties just came up and said, I can't believe you wrote for how much still excited. Another friend, his 12 year old daughter just finished the run of the series, which I have mixed feelings about knowing some of the things that we wrote.

[Craig Thomas]

That we've discussed today.

[Carter Bays]

Yeah. But I still love it. And I also, you know, there's one, I don't know why this is the one moment I remember, but hearing the Josh who gave us that intro, his story about a dictionary, everything, I always remember this one moment midway through the series being at some event or something and the rest of the event I don't remember. But all I remember is this one woman saying, thanks for making my Mondays a little happier. I think that's wonderful that we got to do something that we all believed in and all loved and got to put out there and hopefully made brief little moments of different people's lives a little happier. So yeah, I think we knew in the moment, especially as that last season started to happen, we might never have a job. And that's okay because we got to have this job, we got to have these amazing nine years. So much as I would love to do another show that I care about as deeply as that, I'm really happy that I got to do this one.

[Chris Harris]

Craig, maybe let's interrogate this. It's not an issue now because people are watching this whenever they want, but it just occurred to me, we said thank you for making my Mondays better. Mondays are hard days. Mondays, the start of the week. Mondays you have the whole week ahead of you. And that we were on Monday nights, I think that's a little bit part of the story in a weird way.

[Craig Thomas]

I think so too. I think we were on Monday night, you had it, you had to slog your way through Monday and if you watched Monday night, there we were for you. And it was once a week and that's how people Consume the show. And young people have no idea what it felt like to consume the show in that way.

[Alec Lev]

Though I will say that we have gotten not just one response online thanking people again for their Mondays, saying, just.

[Craig Thomas]

Like on the show, podcast comes out on Monday.

[Alec Lev]

Just like we waited for the show on Monday, we waited for the podcast.

[Craig Thomas]

I just want to say Chris, Chris Harris is the dream writer to have on your writing staff and has been an amazing showrunner of other stuff now, too. And like Chris, thank you. You will be back on this podcast. You wrote so many freaking Alzheimer's. Like, every episode you wrote was great.

[Chris Harris]

I will say, invaluable to the room as an actor. When I would open that manila envelope with the, you know, I think on a Friday, they'd often have the money table read episode waiting for you. And when I opened it up and I saw written by Chris Harris, I always thought, all right, this is gonna be good. I'm excited about this.

[Craig Thomas]

There was always something in there that could only come from Chris, many things in there that could only come from Chris. And I think that is just such a testament that that's the dream. I will say, as a showrunner of a TV show, that's the dream where somebody that can understand what the show is and bring the tone emotionally, bring the storytelling, but then do something with it that you yourself could never do. And like Chris, you just so have that talent. It's just kind of innate talent of bringing jokes only you could write and moments only you could create into all of your work, including your amazing children's books and poetry books. So go look those up. Chris is a genius at that, too. Please find out.

[Chris Harris]

Playing James Bond and the Hot the range is extreme, extraordinary. That's what it is. The rage.

[Craig Thomas]

You're amazing in that. I love you in Fleabag. A lot of acclaim for that role, but we love you, Chris Harris, and you will be back.

[Carter Bays]

Love you guys. Can't wait. And, yeah, you built the playground. It was so much fun to play around it.

[Chris Harris]

So we tend to open these episodes with audio that you guys have submitted about what How I Met yout Mother means to you. And we tend to close the show with written letters we've received about what How I met your mother means to you. If you would like to submit either an audio or a written letter, please go to how we made your mother.com go to contact. Should be clear from there. We have a wonderful letter today, and I often read these letters, but today I'm handing it over to Chris Harris. Chris will you read us our closing letter.

[Carter Bays]

Your first mistake. Here we go. Dear Josh and Craig, I was 12 years old the first time I watched How I Met yout Mother, which admittedly, may have been a little too young for some of the more adult themes.

[Craig Thomas]

We've been over this. Yeah, this keeps coming up today, but.

[Carter Bays]

I had overheard my cousin talking about how great the show was, and I convinced my mom to get a Netflix subscription just so I could see it for myself. At the time, I was incredibly lonely and already experiencing my first round of depression. I didn't have the words for it back then, but I knew that coming home and putting on How I Met yout Mother felt like a lifeline. It gave me a group of friends I could visit every day. It made me laugh when nothing else could. It gave me hope that things could get better, even when they felt impossible. The show has become this rhythm in my life. As soon as I finish the final episode, I go right back to the pilot episode. It's comfort. It's home. It's safe. A while ago, I got a tattoo that says right time, right place from Ted's speech in season four, episode 22. When I finally went to New York, I made my friends come with me to McGee's Pub. And I cried. Not in a touristy, I'm checking this off my bucket list kind of way, but because stepping into that bar felt like stepping into a place that had held me through some of the darkest and brightest moments of my life. My heart felt full and strange and overwhelmed, like I was visiting an old friend I'd only ever known through a story screen. I could have stayed there forever. I did not want to leave. Listening to your podcast has brought that world to life in a whole new way. It's filled me with so much joy and nostalgia. And one of the letters you read moved me more than I expected. It touched on things I felt, too. And for a moment, I worried that writing to you would seem repetitive. But I've come to realize that's the magic of this show. It created something so personal for so many of us, something that still connects people across time, distance, and circumstance. So thank you. Thank you for creating a show that's felt like home to me for over a decade, for giving us a group of characters who felt like friends, each of them flawed and funny and deeply human in ways that made me feel less alone. And thank you for the podcast. Hearing your stories, reflections and laughter has felt like revisiting something sacred with the people who made it. It's been emotional Funny and healing in ways I didn't expect. How I met your mother has shot shaped me. It's helped me hold on when things felt heavy and reminded me to believe in love, timing, and the kind of friendship that makes everything else bearable. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for this amazing show. Sincerely, Louis from the Faroe Islands. Wow.

[Craig Thomas]

How nice is that? That's Chris. Isn't that cool? We've heard from fans, and it's such an honor that we all got to make something that meant as much to people like that, you know, it's amazing.

[Carter Bays]

And so humbling to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you for sharing that.

[Craig Thomas]

It's beautiful. And like, to point this out, like, the feeling of friendship in the show, we all really were friends. You know, I think the idea that the writing staff and the actors, we're all kind of similar ages and similar vibes, we all really were friends. And Chris Harris, just to say this. And you can only say Chris Harris's name. You gotta say both names. You can't just say Chris.

[Carter Bays]

Yes.

[Craig Thomas]

You have to say Chris Harris. He's one of those guys. But Chris is such a dear friend of mine and of Carter's. Like, we really do go back in our 20s. We were writing for A Late show with David Letterman. We were going to McGee's Pub on Thursday nights as a group right from the. That was the Late show at David Letterman Bar. Before it was. Now it's the How I Met yout Mother bar. But it was the Late Show With David Letterman bar first. And we would go there, Chris, to sort of drink our troubles away. After a long week, we'd shoot two shows, two tapings of Letterman on Thursday night. It was a great job, but it was very intense. And we would be there. And so Chris is like, really such a dear friend of Carter and I and came with from there. And there was a little gap time where we weren't working together, but we were together on a couple other things. Prior to How I'm at yout Mother, most of my TV career was with you, Chris. And I think that friendship and history that we all had and so many of us had on the writing staff and with the cast, I think it does translate into the final product. And maybe that's what this person who wrote this amazing letter was feeling. I like to think that's part of it.

[Carter Bays]

Absolutely. It felt like for a while, it felt like, how much are they. Our lives were just a few years ahead of the characters and so just enough to let us reflect. But all of those times. I think you're right. I think that friendship and that genuine caring for each other really came through just to sort of emphasize how connected we were as both, you know, we were writers on this show, but also friends. When I was scrolling through the the notes for doing game night, it's that game going to find out secrets about each other or the rules are variable, they keep changing. And then it reads chain reaction reveal of dirt on other characters. Barney's got something on Rob and Lily on Barney. And then the next line it says, chris Harris boy names. And what is clearly happening here is my wife was pregnant and the room had paused to pitch on Boynet to pitch on names for my child. It goes, chris Harris boy names Casper, Casper, Jughead, Woody Woodpecker, spongebob. King awesome. Chris Harris.

[Craig Thomas]

You went with King Awesome. You went with King Awesome.

[Carter Bays]

I went with King awesome and never looked back. Chris Harris girl names Helga, Sudoku, Betty. That's how the notes page ends. That's how the notes for that day.

[Chris Harris]

I also like. It's like. It's like. It's like an incredibly tender moment and tender. Ask like what to my friends. What what did they think? They're like Jughead. Call it Jughead. I am guilty. Please acquit me. All sins are forgiven in New York City.

[Alec Lev]

How we made your mother is hosted and executive produced by Josh Radner and Queen Craig Thomas. The show was produced by me, Alec Lev, and our co producer is Doug Matica. Our audio producer and mixer is Alex Reeves at Point of Blue Studios and our digital content producer, AKA Gen Z Master is Emily Blumberg. Artwork by John Morrow. Please follow rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or your podcast player of choice. It really does help the show. Our theme song is NYC by our own Josh Radner, with additional music by Craig Thomas and Andrew Majewski. Special thanks to Lola Kennedy and Elliot Connors. Visit how we made your mother.com to sign up for our substack mailing list and for links to our social media. You can also click on the contact page to send us an email or a voice message. Your stories and questions are an important part of the show. Want some merch? Click on the store link or go to howyougetyourmerch.com subscribe to Josh Radner's Muse Letters on substack. Order Craig Thomas debut [e-mail] novel and you can subscribe to My Dead father Society also on substack, to learn about how you make a difference this show's ongoing campaign to raise money for congenital heart disease disease research. Check out the Make a Difference tab at the top of our website. This episode was made possible by the support of Backyard Ventures. People will, in fact, dance the real.

[Chris Harris]

Question it just hit me. Am I in love with you or just New York City?

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