How We Raised Our Columns  | S2E13 "Columns"

Summary

How We Made Your Mother – “How We Raised Our Columns”

Season 2, Episode 13: “Columns”

Release Date: January 26, 2026
Hosts: Josh Radnor & Craig Thomas

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Episode Overview

This episode of How We Made Your Mother dives into HIMYM’s Season 2 “deep cut” episode, “Columns.” Hosts Josh Radnor (Ted Mosby) and co-creator Craig Thomas discuss the comedic and emotional layers of the episode, which centers on Ted’s transition from employee to boss and the complex dynamics that come with leadership. The conversation explores what it means to suddenly be “the boss” in both sitcom land and real life, the joys and pains of professional growth, and features anecdotes about breakout HIMYM writer Matt Kuhn and the collaborative spirit of the writers’ room. The duo also highlights favorite jokes, moments with guest star Bryan Cranston, the “B story” involving Marshall’s nude painting, and fan correspondence showing the continued cultural resonance of the show.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Recapping “Columns” – A Stealth Episode

• Episode Summary (02:50):
  • Ted becomes the boss of his old workplace, managing both the job and his former boss Hammond Druthers (Bryan Cranston), now a bitter subordinate.
  • Unusually for the series, the A Story (Ted's workplace dynamics) and the B Story (Marshall's nude painting causing mayhem) are almost entirely separate.
  • “Once it started, I was like, okay, I remember. A couple of things I completely forgot which were funny…” (Josh Radnor, 02:34)

2. The Realities of Becoming a Boss

• Emotional Kernel From the Writers’ Room (05:11):

  • The episode was “inspired by Carter Bayes and my real experience of moving from staff writers to being the boss,” says Craig. No training, thrown in the deep end.
  • “There’s no training for it, really… it is really weird and hard.” (Craig Thomas, 05:29)

• Loneliness at the Top (06:34):

  • Both Josh and Craig share how success can create a sense of isolation from former peers.
  • “Suddenly you’re the common enemy they’re bitching about.” (Josh Radnor, 07:37)

• Learning to Delegate (09:25):

  • Early mistakes as showrunners included trying to “fix it ourselves” instead of empowering the writers.
  • “You need to invest in fixing it with everybody and learn how to delegate.” (Craig Thomas, 09:11)

• Showrunning as Parenting (10:17):

  • Josh draws the analogy: “If showrunning is parenting, it’s like you guys just had a baby very young, like before your contemporaries, and you have to figure it out on the fly.”

3. Matt Kuhn: From Writers’ Assistant to Bro Code Author

• Ascending Through the Ranks (10:36–12:31):

  • Matt Kuhn wrote his first episode as a writers’ assistant; now he’s a showrunner in his own right (“Doogie Howser” reboot, DMZ).
  • Kuhn also wrote most of Barney’s “Bro Code” books: “He was the guy who… raised his hand whenever there was an opportunity to write any little thing to prove himself… that led to him getting to write the Bro Code which became a New York Times bestseller.” (Craig Thomas, 12:31)

• The Value of Starting ‘Low’ (17:22–20:09):

  • Josh shares an anecdote about Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, drawing a parallel with Matt Kuhn’s work ethic: “…don’t be afraid to take a job you think is beneath you because your skills will get noticed very quickly and you’ll rise up the ranks.”
  • “Raise your hand and be like, I will do the thing.” (Craig Thomas, 20:24)

4. Behind the Scenes: Notable Production & Casting Moments

• Props & Details (25:02):

  • Dave Baker in props and Bryan Cranston cooperating over the “perfect 80s sunglasses” for the “Coked Up Architect” gag.
  • “Dave Baker, like, trying to find the perfect 80s sunglasses is like watching a chemist…” (Josh Radnor, 25:14)

• Guest Star Bryan Cranston (24:01, 39:11):

  • Matt Kuhn’s memory of Cranston: “He had just won Best Actor for Breaking Bad… made it all about us and our show. Great guy. Hammond Druthers says Matt.”
  • “That is Bryan Cranston all over the place, right?” (Craig Thomas, 24:01)

5. Episode Thematics: Workplace, Growth, and Friendship

• Childhood Echoes in Adulthood (27:10):

  • “History doesn’t repeat, but it rhymes”—the motif of people not taking Ted’s creativity seriously as a kid and an adult.

• The Lonely Leader (41:31):

  • “It’s about the loneliness of being a boss. It’s about how success makes you lonely and takes you…” (Craig Thomas, 41:31)

• Comedy Craft: Old References & Physical Humor

  • Running commentary on dated jokes (“Who’s the Boss?”), meta references, and appreciation for physical comedy (e.g., Jason Segel’s bar leap with the painting, 34:52).

6. B Story: The Nude Painting, Money Woes, and Adult Compromises

• Marshall’s Moral Quandaries (33:59):
  • “Marshall and Lily completely sell out their values… $5,000 is $5,000.”
  • The show confronts sitcom tropes about money and adult realities.

7. Favorite Quotes & Humorous Highlights

Memorable Quotes with Timestamps

• On Success & Isolation:

  • “There’s joy in having friends with which to have a common enemy to bitch about… Suddenly you’re the common enemy they’re bitching about.”
    — Josh Radnor (07:41)

• On Matt Kuhn’s Rise:

  • “He was the guy who… raised his hand whenever there was an opportunity to write any little thing to prove himself. And so then this was his first episode.”
    — Craig Thomas (12:31)

• On Delegation:

  • “You need to invest in fixing it with everybody and learn how to delegate… sometimes you need to teach people how to do the job the way you want.”
    — Craig Thomas (09:11)

• On Bryan Cranston:

  • “Bryan Cranston… made it all about us and our show. Great guy. Hammond Druthers says Matt.”
    — Craig Thomas (24:01)

• On the Simpsons Reference:

  • “To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life’s problems.”
    — Quoted by Josh Radnor (46:45)

• On Barney’s Shame Gland:

  • “In my body, where the shame gland should be, there’s a second awesome gland.”
    — Barney, as recalled by Craig Thomas (42:01)

8. Listener Letters: HIMYM’s Ongoing Impact

• Fan Letter Segment (52:47–56:28):

  • Jacob from Nashville shares how HIMYM helped him through depression, inspired him to foster and adopt, and informed his real-life relationships:

    • “Ted taught me that I could live my life in a different order from my friends. He taught me that I should take the leap. …I have this show and this podcast to thank for my beautiful family.”

  • Josh: “This is a weird show. It soundtracks people’s lives. It’s like a sitcom that is a soundtrack.” (56:11)

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Additional Noteworthy Moments & Meta-Commentary

• Production Details:

  • HIMYM’s famous use of parallel flashbacks, music cues, and visual gags are dissected.
  • The crew reflects on “bottle episodes” and how some episodes are intentionally structured as lighter, comic “palate cleansers” (44:51).

• On Writing & Collaboration:

  • Discussion of the writers' room culture; the collaborative, teaching spirit Craig and Carter strove for.

• Comedy Construction:

  • The “linear” nature of “Columns” compared to multi-threaded, narratively ambitious episodes. “It scrambled your brain slightly less.” (44:47)

• Legacy & Advice:

  • Emphasis on perseverance, humility, and taking on humble tasks as the pathway to bigger creative opportunities.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:50] – Episode recap and episode tone.
• [05:11]–[10:26] – Real-life inspiration behind the episode and showrunning stories.
• [10:36]–[12:31] – Matt Kuhn’s career journey and the birth of the Bro Code.
• [17:22]–[20:09] – The value of ‘showing up’ and parallel with TM meditation teacher story.
• [24:01] – Matt Kuhn’s Bryan Cranston memory.
• [27:10] – Parallels between Ted’s childhood and workplace struggles.
• [33:59] – Marshall and Lily’s compromise and money realities.
• [39:11] – Hammond Druthers’ personal collapse and comedic bits.
• [41:31] – “Loneliness of being a boss” and why the episode resonates.
• [52:47]–[56:28] – Heartfelt listener letter and discussion of HIMYM’s enduring impact.

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Episode Tone & Takeaways

The discussion is affable, self-deprecating, and filled with nostalgia, mingling genuine industry insights with behind-the-scenes trivia and running gags between the hosts. For both fans and aspiring creative types, this episode underscores the dual-edged sword of success, the incremental path of a writing career, and the lasting impact HIMYM has had on its devoted followers.

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For Further Engagement

Listeners are encouraged to send letters and stories, check the episode show notes for extra materials, and join the ongoing How We Made Your Mother podcast community.

“If showrunning is parenting, it’s like you guys just had a baby very young, and you have to figure it out on the fly.”
— Josh Radnor (10:17)

“Ted taught me that I could live my life in a different order than my friends. He taught me that I should take the leap.”
— Listener Jacob, Nashville (52:47)

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This summary covers all major themes, behind-the-scenes anecdotes, and memorable moments, staying true to the hosts’ tone throughout.

Transcript

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[Josh Radner]

I'm alone. What a pity I won't be soon in New York City when I see you. Please permit me to tell you everything in New York City. Well, hello out there and welcome to another episode of How We Made youe Mother. I'm Josh Radner. I'm joined by my friend Craig Thomas. Hey, Craig. Craig.

[Craig Thomas]

Hey there, Josh.

[Josh Radner]

Hey. We're still talking about how I met your mother. That's a TV show that we made together. Craig co created the show with his college buddy Carter Bayes. I played Ted Mosby on that show. It ran from 2005 to 2014. Today we're deep into season two. We're talking about the episode columns written by our friend Matt Kuhn. Alec, give us a little history. Place us in the constellation. When did this premiere?

[Alec Lev]

Absolutely. Columns premiered on the television on January 22nd of 2007.

[Craig Thomas]

Television was like this thing.

[Josh Radner]

It was a new thing at that point, I believe.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes. Yeah, it was new. A new invention.

[Josh Radner]

Watched in with their TV dinners was.

[Craig Thomas]

I Love Lucy was our lead in.

[Josh Radner]

So. So this episode, I got to say, when it was on the schedule, it's like, oh, we're talking about columns. I was like, what the hell?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, it's a little bit of a stealth episode. I did not remember it.

[Josh Radner]

It doesn't have a title that like jogged my memory.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

And I was kind of like, what is this? Once it started, I was like, okay, I remember. I know what this is. A couple of things I completely forgot which were funny to me that I want to talk about. But give us a little. As you do, Craig, so beautifully, a little Summary of what. What's what we. What we. What did we just watch?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, this is. This is. How lucky are we that Bryan Cranston came back and played with us again? He was in Aldrin justice, and he came back a few episodes this episode. And he plays Ted's formerly asshole boss, who Ted has supplanted. And Ted is now the boss. And it's an investigation of kind of what it's like to be the boss. Like, Ted used to be the guy making fun of the boss. Now he is the boss. Not only that, but now Hammond Druthers is this completely antagonistic, bitter employee whom he has to manage. And then this is one of the more A story, B stories, hymn episodes we've ever done where it really. It really is like. It's almost like a little bit like a different show. The B story, very separate from the A story, which is not always the case on our show, is about this painting, a nude painting of Marshall's services and causes all kinds of havoc between Marshall, Barney and Lily.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, also, one of the things. It's not just Hammond, but I really like the kind of grace notes of Ted is not. He's not a water cooler guy anymore. He's not like his other. His co workers. He's gone into. Is it the C suite? Is that what you call it? Like, he's gone into the corner office.

[Craig Thomas]

So I think that's what inspired this episode. I think this was a more of a Carter episode than me, I believe. And it's why my memory of it isn't that strong either. Josh. I was like, really forgetting what happened in this episode at times. It was fun to rediscover. It's kind of like a deep cut, this one. It was not a single on the album. It is like a B side, but it's good. But I remember where it came from for Carter and the room. We were always two rooms. The writers rooms were always like an A room and a B room. And I wasn't on this one, but I think it came from this very true thing Carter and I were wrestling with, which is we were now the bosses. We had been staff writers on all of these shows, wrote for David Letterman. We were on American Dad. We were on various and various other ones that no one we can't even prove exist anymore. And we had always been guys that were the employees, right? We'd always been, like, around that water cooler, maybe talking a little shit about the boss here and there, whatever it was. And now we were the boss. And I think the emotional truth, the kernel of truth. Kernel of truth. Keep an eye on your toes here is it was actually Carter processing this very real thing he and I were feeling about what does it mean to now be the boss? We're in season two. We really are the boss. This show seems to be continuing, and it's weird. It's different.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. And you guys didn't even, relatively speaking, have that much time not being bosses. Like, you weren't, like, staffed for years, and then suddenly you found yourself in this position. Like, you were kind of catapulted into this position by way of writing a great pilot.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And you don't. And there's no training for it, really.

[Josh Radner]

Right, right.

[Craig Thomas]

And it is really weird and hard. Like, that scene, the truest scene for me rewatching it, was when Ted comes back into that break room and realizes they're probably talking shit about his shirt now. Yeah. That feeling of distance from that was.

[Josh Radner]

Some great fryman camera trickery. I loved how it was kind of a oner.

[Craig Thomas]

It was a one, but it was.

[Josh Radner]

Like, clearly time had passed. I mean, that was really smart. You know, I can relate to this on some level, Craig. I re like, you know how they talk about, like, there's healthy uses of gossip. Like. Like, yeah, there's a kind of bonding, social cohesion that is, like, ancient in the village, you know, to. To kind of gossip. Now, obviously, gossip can get toxic, and we all know that feeling of, like, I've said too much, and I feel terrible about myself. But it does provide a kind of. Yeah. Like a social bonding. And I had a similar experience once, how I met your mother. Got on the air and started to get very successful. I suddenly couldn't commiserate in the same way with my young actor.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't complain. You're not allowed to complain anymore. And you're also a human being.

[Josh Radner]

You have. Any listener of this podcast will know there was enough to complain about that was real. But I could only. At some point, I could only complain to you. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Or Kobe.

[Josh Radner]

Like, I couldn't complain to my friends that I went to drama school with or friends of mine from New York who were, you know, still really, you know, struggling to make ends meet. And it puts you in a somewhat lonelier stratosphere. It's very lonely, Jordana. And I just watched Noah Baumbach's new movie, J. Kelly. Did you watch it?

[Craig Thomas]

I haven't seen it yet.

[Josh Radner]

Okay, I might see that. You know, it's about, like, the loneliness of Stardom. The loneliness of a guy who really chose the love of kind of anonymous crowds over his own family. You know, like, it's a really. It's a tragic tale. And not to say that I feel analogously, but that shift is very real. And I don't know, there's something about. There's joy in having friends with which to have a common enemy to bitch about.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes, yes.

[Josh Radner]

And suddenly you're the common enemy they're bitching about.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And Carter and I worked for. We have definitely, in our career, worked for showrunners or head writers that seemed under immense stress. They were solo. Flying solo. I mean, and sometimes we're, you know, lousy bosses at times because of the stress they were under. And I'm very grateful to have had Carter to share that loneliness with, to share the shittiness and so people could complain about either of us. But, no, it's. It made me remember that at least we had that. Yeah, we definitely felt cut off from the thing of, like, the group. The group that is working for the man. We're now the man. Yeah, we're the men. And it's like. It is weirdly lonely.

[Josh Radner]

Well, if I could pay you guys a compliment, I do feel like you threaded a needle in terms of. I never. And again, I wasn't in the writers room. I never got the feeling the writers had, like, resentment towards you. You all felt like a team, even though the final word would be you guys. I'm sure you, you know. You know, you grabbed certain scripts and did rewrites that, you know, but that's. If you're a comedy writer in Hollywood, you get used to that. But I never felt that.

[Craig Thomas]

I do.

[Josh Radner]

I am curious, though, looking back all these years later, it did. What if you. What would you feel comfortable revealing? Like, what were some, like, rookie mistakes you made as a boss?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I mean, a lot. A lot of mistakes. We. We. We, I think, didn't realize that part of the job is teaching other people how to do the job the way you want to. Sometimes we would. If there was something wrong with a script in early seasons, we'd just be like, all right, let's lock ourselves in our office, barricade the doors, and we'll fix it. And sometimes you need to invest in fixing it with everybody and learn how to delegate.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

And there were times at the start where we didn't do enough of that. And then we really leaned into doing that, and we really empowered people, and we would bring writers even if we barricaded the door. We'd bring, like a couple of other writers in and we could say, this is what we're trying to fix. It's hard to do it as a group of like eight people in a room. We just need to go really fast right now. So it's you and Carter and me, and we're going to fix it and we're going to sort of teach you what we think needs to be better in this script. And then that. That pays dividends in the long run because that writer is like, oh, I see what they were going for. And then they can hit that more. It's so arbitrary. Right. It's not like we're right and they're wrong, but we have to have the final say as the showrunners because somebody does.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

And it's us. And that's the weird thing. I'm sure there was sometimes tension with that from the writers, but I'm happy to hear you say that. I do. It was a very happy writers room and writing staff. I like to believe we weren't being trash talked every time we left the room. Like, Hammond drove into me.

[Josh Radner]

It's almost like if showrunning is parenting, it's like you guys just had a baby very young, like before your contemporaries, and you have to figure it out on the fly.

[Craig Thomas]

Hugely. So, yeah, that's right. That's right.

[Josh Radner]

So let's. Yeah, let's talk about the episode. This was written by Matt Kuhn. Who was he a writer's assistant? Did he start off as a writer's assistant?

[Craig Thomas]

This is one of the greatest parts of the job of being a showrunner. The boss. Being the boss has some downsides as this episode explores, and some loneliness. But a great part of being a boss is when you can invest in somebody who you believe in and is great and kind of watch them grow up in front of your eyes. Matt Kuhn is this great example of that. He started as a writer's assistant, which he was when he wrote this, which is his first TV script ever. He's now a showrunner level writer. He's co run since How Much yout Mother, a show with Courtney Kang, another Hamyim all star, the Doogie Howser reboot. And he's. He's co running DMV that's coming out on NBC. So this is somebody we watched go from like baby writer, writer assistant, baby writer to all the way co EP by the end of how much Mother and now has a great career. So that's just one of those stories.

[Josh Radner]

Correct me if I'm wrong, though. He also was the ghostwriter, writer, writer of the Barney books, right?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. Like, Matt Kuhn raised his hand whenever we said, hey, is there anybody that wants to take on writing Barney's blog? Barney talks about his blog on the show. We want it to be that every episode has a Barney's blog entry. It'll be on cbs.com I think you can still find these somewhere. Not on cbs.com, but somewhere. And Matt would write a lot of those, brought in the other writers assistants over time to write those. Hey, and that's the great thing about saying yes to like, kind of shit detail, where it's just like, write this thing kind of for free or for a tiny bit of money for the website and maybe a few people will see it. Well, that led to Matt demonstrating how good he was at writing Barney stuff. And when it came time, when we realized we wanted to do a Bro Code book, like a spinoff book, Matt was then, by that point a writer. And we said, matt, you are great at writing Barney stuff. Write these books. It became a New York Times bestselling book in the humor category and spawned, I think, at least two or three other Bro Code books and the Playbook. And Matt headed up all of that.

[Josh Radner]

All.

[Craig Thomas]

Cause he was the guy who. First guy to show up, last guy to leave, raised his hand whenever there was an opportunity to write any little thing to prove himself. And so then this was his first episode.

[Josh Radner]

And I wrote you this little ditty to sing to you in New York City. City. We'll be right back. This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. Squarespace is an all in one website platform. What can't you do with Squarespace? You can build your site, you can accept payments, market your brand, and so much more, all with Squarespace.

[Craig Thomas]

Here's the great thing. We. We don't have to make this one up.

[Josh Radner]

We.

[Craig Thomas]

We really use Squarespace for the show.

[Josh Radner]

How we're a square Squarespace show.

[Craig Thomas]

We are. We are. How we made your mother.com was. Was built using Squarespace by Alec Lev.

[Josh Radner]

Our producer who knows nothing about building websites. That we should clarify that.

[Craig Thomas]

Completely clueless, right, Alec? I mean, you're clueless about. You know, this is. This is not the only thing you're clueless about, but this is your. It runs deep, the cluelessness here, right?

[Alec Lev]

The list is long. And this is on it. Yeah, I. If you, if you have anything, you have a podcast, you've got a Craig.

[Craig Thomas]

You'Ve got your website that my professional Writer website is via Squarespace, my wife's.

[Josh Radner]

Professional website, Squarespace, my music website, Squarespace.

[Alec Lev]

All of it's great and all you need to do is vaguely know what you kind of want it to look like. And Squarespace has these amazing templates. If you're selling anything, you don't need to like go and build some sort of weird store. You could just sell it. It takes your money sets, obviously. I don't even know how to talk about this. I don't know this stuff.

[Craig Thomas]

But if you needed to do it, it takes your money, you feed cash into the computer. You don't know how it works, but you made a damn good website nonetheless.

[Alec Lev]

And it works. And it's incredibly fast to make. I want to point out one other thing. Their tech support's fantastic. You got a problem, you ask them a question, they'll send you a video of how to do it.

[Josh Radner]

All those great letters we read on the show or we hear from people about what the show means to them, that is through our website. Without Squarespace having made that website for us with Alec, we wouldn't be able to get any of those great fan responses to you. So we're incredibly grateful for this great product and we're so happy to have them as a sponsor on the show. And so with Squarespace, you can do all the things we just said. Build a great looking website using beautiful templates, simple design tools. Even if, like Alec, you never made a website before, it lets you offer services like consultations or events, accept payments, send professional invoices and schedule appointments all in one place. Squarespace also includes tools to help people find you online, makes it easy to register and manage your domain, and gives you options to share videos, accept donations, or sell content, if that's part of what you do.

[Craig Thomas]

So go to squarespace.com yourmother for a free trial and use code your mother, all one word to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Hi, this is Jill Schlesinger, CBS News Business Analyst, certified financial planner and the host of the Jill on Moneypower podcast. With the new year upon us, there's no better time to take control of your financial life. And the Jill on Money podcast is here to help. It's your questions that make it possible for me to provide unconventional and, I hope, entertaining insights on your money and more importantly, on your life. Follow and listen to Jill on Money wherever you get your podcasts.

[Josh Radner]

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[Craig Thomas]

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[Josh Radner]

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[Craig Thomas]

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[Josh Radner]

And now back to the show. So I'm going to tell a story that this is not a story for everyone. Not everyone's going to enjoy this story. They're going to go get back to the episode, but I'm going to tell it. And if Alec wants to cut it, he can cut it. But I'm telling this story, which is, I heard a story from my meditation teacher who learned to teach from Maharishi Mahesh Yogi who, who was the Beatles, you know, famously brought Transcendental meditation to the U.S. he had, I think a Ph.D. in physics. He had a very high level, kind of advanced degree in either engineering or physics. But he was obsessed with a guru in India named Guru Dev. Okay, if I'm getting any of this wrong and someone knows the like, you're feel free to correct me, but this is the story as I got it.

[Craig Thomas]

Paul McCartney writes in, you got this one wrong, lad.

[Josh Radner]

No, McCartney told me this story. No, no. So, so, so Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, he's, he's desperate at that point, I don't think that was his name, but he was desperate to learn from this. The yogi who was, he couldn't get up close to him because he was always, you know, surround, he was always teaching and he didn't know how to get up close to him. So he, he, he finally got up close to the people who scheduled him and he said, look, I'll do anything. Like, let me do anything that will just help this guru. So they said, okay, well, you can clean up the room before class and you can clean up the room after class. Just straighten up. Like they basically like assigned him like housekeeping, right?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

So he was doing this, this is remember, like a man with a PhD and like, he's just like, I'll do anything. So he's sweeping the room, he's arranging the chairs, he's dusting. And then one day, like something like the British ambassador wrote Gurudev because he was this great holy figure that people listen to in India, but no one spoke English. And they said, does anyone speak English? Because the letter was in English. And sheepishly from the back of the room, this, this PhD, you know, Maharishima Hashiogi says, I do. So he translated the letter for them and then they said, can you translate a response back? So he wrote out the response back. And then he became like his secretary. He became his right hand man. And then he learned everything from him. All of which is to say, my meditation teacher, he told this story to say, don't be afraid to take a job you think is beneath you because your skills will get noticed very quickly and you'll rise up the ranks. And it's exactly what Matt Kun did.

[Craig Thomas]

It's exactly. Absolutely. Don't cut this out.

[Josh Radner]

Do you see what I'm saying?

[Craig Thomas]

I think Josh landed the plan on.

[Josh Radner]

This Maharishi Mahesh mat. This is one of those stories that Jenna Fisher's gonna be like. That's the Josh Radner story that you only get on the hell yeah, we made your mother. But salute to Matt Kuhn, because I think that's what he did. And he made himself indispensable by taking jobs that were kind of like a little bit of like the runoff, like things that you didn't have the bandwidth to do.

[Craig Thomas]

I love that story because we get Carter and I get asked a lot by young writers now in 2025, how do we break in? And the business has changed so much. It's gotten so much harder than when Carter and I were trying to rig in. But this story is timeless and universal. The story you just told that actually perfectly applies to Matt. Matt was that guy. What can I do? What can I do? And I should say, we have Matt. We only know Matt Kuhn because we had Chris Miller and Phil Lourd who went on to become Oscar winning filmmakers who wrote On How Much Mother season one. They went to Dartmouth a few years ahead of Matt and loved Matt and said, this guy is just a good dude. So smart, very funny. He's going to work so hard. That's why we had Matt. So it's like Chris and Phil to Matt.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

And then Matt's on him, and then Matt is now a showrunner.

[Josh Radner]

You hear this all the time on, like, political campaigns. Like, there was someone who was just volunteering, making phone calls, and then they end up being a speechwriter and then they end up being the campaign manager like you. You can't be afraid to rise up through the ranks, but don't be afraid to Start low.

[Craig Thomas]

Just start raising your hand and be like, I will do the thing. Whatever the thing is, it needs to get done. And if you do it well enough, that boss will definitely notice.

[Josh Radner]

We have. Can we shout out Emily? Like, Emily is someone who reached out to us and said, I love How I Met yout Mother. I love the podcast. She had just graduated, and she said, let me do whatever I can do. And she's working with us right now, and we're giving her more and more responsibilities. And we're. You know, it's. It's a good. It's a good thing to think about if you're. If you're young and have big dreams.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, she just reached out to us on, like, Instagram or something, and it was just, like, wrote something smart and.

[Josh Radner]

And then sent her resume. And we're like, whoa, we should be so lucky.

[Craig Thomas]

It's the same as Matt, what ma energy was. And, yeah, you notice it. You just. You notice that energy in the world. And I think that is the best advice to give. Cause I feel at a loss to give advice to young TV writers trying to break in right now. It's so hard. And I think that's just like, do the thing. And also. And do your own thing and show. Like, when we said to Matt, here's the Bro Code, run with it. He wrote a great book. We edited it a bit. We got the red pen out, and we would scribble and pitch stuff. But, like, Matt Kuhn wrote that book, and it's a New York Times bestseller.

[Josh Radner]

People think a man named Barney Stinson wrote that book.

[Craig Thomas]

But, in fact, Matt is barely cred.

[Josh Radner]

Matt Kuhn, with an assist by Matt Kuhn. But no, he.

[Craig Thomas]

He.

[Josh Radner]

He had been in the room long enough to kind of channel the voice and the energy, and. And he'd written some of the ancillary things that really helped codify some of Barney's published material.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, and some of that stuff ends up making it back into the show. Like, Matt Kuhn would write stuff in the Bro Code book, and we'd be like, that's funny. Why haven't we had Barney say that? It all feeds itself? It's just like, that energy pays off and it gets.

[Josh Radner]

That's incredible.

[Craig Thomas]

Speaking of maccoon, speaking of mattress, we wanted to have him here today, and he would have. He's gonna kick himself because we're complimenting the living crap out of him on this thing. But he sent in just a little story that he remembers that I will maybe share right now since we're on the Matt Kuhn topic that he. You know, it was his first script, and he gets Bryan Cranston to be in his very first script for TV he ever wrote. That's pretty damn cool. Okay, I'm gonna read what he said. He texted this a column's memory. This is my very first script, by the way. Thank you. Was Bryan Cranston pre Breaking Bad? Amazing team player. I remember him coming up to me with Dave Baker and carrying a suitcase of sunglasses to audition for me for the COVID of Architecture Weekly. Remember that little magazine cover we see in the episode where it's like, Hammond looking very 80s and coked up? That's what this was. And saying to me, I've been trying on sunglasses for the COVID shoot with Dave in props and love these three, but I'm happy to wear whatever you like, of course, meaning Matt Kuhn, who's the baby writer in his first script. And then two years later, when we were nominated for the Emmys for How Much Mother? For Best Show, I was standing outside after and saw Bryan Cranston, and he had just won Best Actor for Breaking Bad. It was probably a few years later, and I was like, Excuse me, Mr. Cranston, congratulations. You're not gonna remember me, but you were in an episode with us for How I Met yout Mother. And Cranston was like Matt Collins and said he had such a great time and asked how we were all doing, and he's standing there holding an Emmy and made it all about us and our show. Great guy Hammond. Great guy Hammond. Druthers says Matt. Wow, that is Bryan Cranston all over the place, right? You talk about just the good energy, finding the good energy. It's like, those people stand out, right? Cranston was so. Cranston is that same thing. He's just great in whatever reason. If he's in a little part on Seinfeld, he's great. If he plays a crazy asshole boss on our show with not the deepest character of all time, but he's great.

[Josh Radner]

Well, it's also. I mean, just following this thing, it's like, read an actor's IMDb page. My first job was on a sitcom with Christine Baranski and Jim Gaffigan. This is how I got my SAG card called welcome to New York. I had three or four lines that they said, maybe it'll be recurring. That's what they always used to say, maybe it'll be recurring. I got there, they had cut that scene, but they said, we still want to have you so they gave me one line. I think I handed Eric Boghossian, like, $10. It was like a bet or something. And I said, no problem or thank you. That's how I got my SAG card. But what I'm saying is, like, that's how you start.

[Craig Thomas]

That's how you start. You start saying you did what they needed and you got a SAG card out of the deal. You got to meet Eric Boghossian, which is pretty cool.

[Josh Radner]

I had already done a play of his. I knew him.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, fuck.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

All right.

[Craig Thomas]

You say that part.

[Josh Radner]

You knew him. But I got to meet Christine and Jim.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, that's great.

[Josh Radner]

So, yeah, so let's get a little more granular with the episode. Jammin with Hammond is funny.

[Craig Thomas]

So great. His wardrobe and props and big shout out to Dave Baker and props. That's a good. That story also shines a light on, like, Dave Baker and props getting the perfect 80s sunglasses together for Bryan Cranston to wear.

[Josh Radner]

Dave Baker, like, trying to find the perfect 80s sunglasses is like watching a chemist, like, put out.

[Craig Thomas]

There were 50 pairs considered. I'm sure Brian whittled down the pair.

[Josh Radner]

He took it like it was a sacred duty. It was like a sacred job to him. Dave Baker and I remember same energy, I think. I don't know if I've mentioned this or not, and I'll mention it when we do the episode, but the first time we introduced sandwiches, he gave me a big submarine sandwich. And he had built, like, you know, in bongs. Is it the carburetor where you pull out?

[Craig Thomas]

I don't do drugs.

[Josh Radner]

I forgot that about you.

[Craig Thomas]

I like to stay clean, kids. Yeah. If that's something you do, sure, go ahead and talk about it.

[Josh Radner]

I saw because I had a friend who is now, of course, dead, who once smoked pot. He did it once, kids. And he's now, unfortunately, no longer with us. But he had made, like, three olives on a toothpick with a little handle from the toothpick to pull out. And he said, here's the carb. Like, you can pull out these olives. I just thought, he's probably just lying awake at night being like, how do I make it a bong? Sand olives. Yeah. And it brings us back to the olive theater. But anyway, where I often. The casting is. No disrespect to this kid who played Young Ted, but that's not what I look like when I was a kid. Can we just say that?

[Craig Thomas]

You can say that you know what I looked like, but stop talking.

[Josh Radner]

There he Was cute.

[Craig Thomas]

I hear that kid, by the way. I hear that kid since the show has become a big time reefer at it.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, yeah. He's sandwich man. They call him the sandwich man. So one thing that I thought was smart, and this is like, again, me doing a college level reading into this, but that kid knocks down his childhood building and said, this is stupid. And then you cut to Hammond Druthers knocks down his building.

[Craig Thomas]

Really funny. That was really funny.

[Josh Radner]

Really funny. Reveal, really. But it also is like that these things in our lives, like, you know, they say history doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes. Like, there are these things that come back in your adult life that you're like, oh, this is like a childhood wound of mine. Absolutely no one takes this shit seriously, you know?

[Craig Thomas]

And stuff doesn't change. It basically is that we've all experienced an adult life, essentially, that it's a little bit heightened. But it's the idea. Yeah, yeah. And I just love the sort of like the weird code switching of being the boss and trying to be somebody's friend.

[Josh Radner]

Right.

[Craig Thomas]

That's what Ted is juggling here. Can you be the boss and be liked by everybody or does he gain a little sympathy for. He gains a little sympathy for Heather?

[Josh Radner]

That's Steve Carell on. On the Office. That's Ricky Gervais. It's like, I'm still a part of the cool kids. Like, I'm still. I'm the chill boss. I'm the cool boss. It's like trying to be a cool parent disaster.

[Craig Thomas]

I just want my kids to like me all the time. Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Amy Poehler in Mean Girl. So I love that reveal of the flower shirt. I thought that was like such smart kind of filmmaking. So the people who are out there learning English from How I met your mother and also the Gen Z, our beloved Gen Z audiences. The who's the boss joke will probably leave them in the dust. Right?

[Craig Thomas]

I said that to Rebecca. I was like, that is hot off the presses, that who's the boss? Mona joke.

[Josh Radner]

It's almost like there's old tech.

[Craig Thomas]

Timeless.

[Josh Radner]

There's old tech, but there's also like, old ref. Like, old reference.

[Craig Thomas]

Okay. Pitch that to Jenna and Angela because we're stealing their old tech, but they should take old ref.

[Josh Radner]

But how many people get the who's the boss joke? Like, that's.

[Craig Thomas]

I really thought about that. What percentage of people under 40, 50?

[Josh Radner]

That's a solidly Gen X joke.

[Craig Thomas]

Again, very Gen X joke.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. Who's the boss?

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God.

[Josh Radner]

So the scene that One of the scenes that really made me laugh was when Ted goes to, who's clearly like the top, top, top guy in the true corner office.

[Craig Thomas]

That guy was great.

[Josh Radner]

That guy was amazing.

[Craig Thomas]

Really funny.

[Josh Radner]

I have zero memory of filming that. Like, that is gone. That has been eternal sunshine from my brain.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God, that's funny. It's a quick scene, but I think.

[Josh Radner]

That'S why it made me laugh.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, you're like, what's gonna happen in this scene? I'm in. That must be the weirdest feeling, Josh. The vertigo of, like, seeing yourself and going, I don't know what happens next.

[Josh Radner]

But I thought it was so funny when he's like, druthers, Mosby, fire the lot of them. And he was. I think I hear Mosby's doing pretty good. But I love what he says. Mosby can stay, but tell him he's on thin ice. And he says, come here. Pinches his cheeks. I like you, Crosby.

[Craig Thomas]

Crosby. That was so bonkers. I had forgotten that too.

[Josh Radner]

So funny.

[Craig Thomas]

Huge laugh from Rebecca.

[Josh Radner]

And he also. He kind of looked like. Did you see one battle after another?

[Craig Thomas]

I haven't yet.

[Josh Radner]

Like, he kind of looked like the guys who were, like, planning, like, white racial domination of the world. He just looked like, like, oh, yeah, these are the people that actually are running things. Like, he's.

[Craig Thomas]

He had a great look, that guy.

[Josh Radner]

He was really fun.

[Craig Thomas]

That was a great one scene cameo, that guy. He was really funny.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

I hear since that. Since we shot that that guy's become a big time reefer.

[Josh Radner]

Big time reefer addict. Yeah. I love seeing Tina playing Robin's makeup girl.

[Craig Thomas]

Tina, who really was our.

[Josh Radner]

She was hair, but she did her makeup stretch.

[Craig Thomas]

She was not her makeup artist.

[Josh Radner]

She did a makeup. She played makeup artist.

[Craig Thomas]

She did a slight stretch to play a makeup artist. And she was funny. She gave a great, like, I'm gonna fuck you over look at the end of the A side of that cut to. She was funny in that. Yeah, that's a great joke. That was the other hardest laugh for my wife watching this episode.

[Josh Radner]

Well, when you're doing a show like ours, that was so. So many jokes are on the cut on the. On the edit. And just popping to her with that face so quick, so funny, so funny.

[Craig Thomas]

And she's saying thoughts and prayers to the families. She's like, what news? What horrible news story is Robin covering it? Also thoughts and prayers reference 20 years ago. It's like, that's not good.

[Josh Radner]

You know who you always talk about? Phil and Chris kind of introduce Barney as an animated character. Like that feels like an animated show joke.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, absolutely. And looks like it too. I mean, she was a cartoon. That's a really. That's a funny. On mute. You want to have a few of those every episode where it's just funny. If you're in a bar and it's on mute, it would catch your eye up on the TV screen. So that was a good example.

[Josh Radner]

Another thing I thought was funny, when it's revealed that it's Ham and Druther's birthday. And I'm like, why does Ted never know when it's someone's birthday?

[Craig Thomas]

Ted is really bad with birthdays.

[Josh Radner]

For someone who clearly is like a responsible, slightly type a person, you know, think he'd have. I don't know if the tech existed, but you know when people send it out and say, please tell me when your birthday is. Fill in this calendar. Yeah, you'd think he'd. After the. The. The. The horror of what was. The Annie Dudek.

[Craig Thomas]

The Natalie.

[Josh Radner]

Natalie.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

You'd think he'd be like, you know what? I gotta get everyone's birthday. I gotta get everyone's birthday.

[Craig Thomas]

Big red letters on the calendar. Just fucking check that every day.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

No, he's. He never learns about birthday as Ted Mosby. You know what? I was struck by just sort of zooming out a second how much Ted's career is part of season two and nobody else's is. You know what I mean? There's no important stories kind of happening in other people's careers in season two. And I remembered this feeling we had of like, we need to show that it's not just Ted Girl of the Week. Is this the mother? Is this the mother? Is this the mother? Everything can't be romantic and sweet. A big speech or like a dating. An awkward dating story. We really wanted to show other speeds in season two. And I think it led to some really fun stuff with Ted's work and career and stuff that's still poignant. It is poignant that Ted. That we learned that this building becomes Ted's first building. And it really exists to this day in Spokane. I mean, that was a few episodes.

[Josh Radner]

Ago in Spokane where there was a great uproar where we've been told that.

[Craig Thomas]

There'S no building even half as tall as the building.

[Josh Radner]

The building codes in the city would prohibit this kind of building.

[Craig Thomas]

Astute how we Made youe Mother fan wrote to us, like, that's like four times bigger than any building in Spokane. So we fucked that up. But here we are. But yeah, there's something I like about. I like being in Ted's shoes, in his career in this. He's an architect. You really feel that he's an architect and seems to be.

[Josh Radner]

Well, it's also. It's kind of like metaphor alert. Like he is building his life. You know, it's very consciously constructed. But it also comes back to. I mean, we don't talk about money as much. With Ted's career, though one presumes he's doing pretty well. You know, Marshall and Lily needing more money for their honeymoon and the wedding. The cheaper wedding dress. Like. Like you. And we talked about this in first season. But like one of the digs against especially sitcoms set in urban environments is like, why do they have all the money and all the time in the world? Like, it doesn't make sense. And I like that How I Met yout Mother showed people in. In a pinch, like, not having the money. And.

[Craig Thomas]

No, it's in this one. It's in this one. Marshall and Lily completely sell out their values. Like they marshalled. You can never see another man naked. I'll give you $5,000. That is. Yeah, that's the Beast. And it's like that is the realest part of this, the B story, which is otherwise feather light. There's really not a lot going on in that B story. It's just sort of funny. And I mean the stuff of, like the painting, the nude Marshall painting, going to the bar really made me laugh. It's a funny story.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

But the only sort of like, real thing in that story is keeping alive two ideas. One, they're getting married. They're headed toward a wedding. That's an important Marshall, Millie detail in the story. And they're fucking flat broke. And they will. They. They will compromise their ideals to get a better hunt.

[Josh Radner]

Jordana was very impressed. This is just a shout out to Jason, who I'm sure is listening right now. Hey. Jason doesn't mess it up when he jumps across the bar and rips the painting out from behind the bar. She was like.

[Craig Thomas]

It was really funny.

[Josh Radner]

That was good. It was a good stunt.

[Craig Thomas]

He clearly did it. It was a good stunt. Yeah. He's making a crazy monster yell as he does it.

[Josh Radner]

Well, just to put a bow on this other. I like when. I mean, it's interesting that Ted is charged with. He has to fire Hammond. Like, talk about a role reversal. Like, it's not just he's over him seniority wise. He actually now has to fire him. But I loved when he said, like, why didn't you just fire him after the birthday? He said, I was wearing a party hat. My authority was compromised.

[Craig Thomas]

That's great. That was a great line.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. Where did you guys come up with new dart? So silly.

[Craig Thomas]

I don't know. It's a hell of a pun. It's a dad joke. I don't remember whose joke that was, to be honest. Maybe Matt Kuhn. Maybe the brilliant, you know, Matt K. Good for a wordplay joke. I want to go ahead and say that. Like, that's probably him.

[Josh Radner]

But it's also funny how they. They introduce the elements to Marshall and how he's like, yeah, stool. It's better for your posture. Thank you for this.

[Craig Thomas]

And he realizes he's on a slippery stuff. Wait a second. Why are they being so nice about this? Him figuring it out very quickly once he knows it and knowing exactly where the painting is made me laugh. He's like, I know.

[Josh Radner]

I think it's funny. I was trying to. I was trying to wonder, like, would Marshall be really that upset about this? Because Jason, I don't think would be that upset about this.

[Craig Thomas]

Jason would not. Jason was stripping and dropping trowel on that set all the time. Not in a lascivious way. And then I don't want to bother walking back to my dressing room. Yeah, yeah. Jason wouldn't care. Yeah, I like that. It flashed back to Wesleyan and, like, brought us back to them as a couple and deciding it was really important that she never see another naked man. So that was very mar. That was a funny Marshall and Lily detail I like.

[Josh Radner]

Well, no one will make fun of you. We're adult adults now.

[Craig Thomas]

We're adults. Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

And this old man, he must admit he fell in love with you. New York City.

[Craig Thomas]

And now commercials.

[Josh Radner]

Mom.

[Craig Thomas]

I like to propose a dinner optimization plan for 2026. Soccer practice every week.

[Josh Radner]

Get back late, and you're stressed out.

[Craig Thomas]

About making something fast but actually nutritious for dinner. When Ashley's mom picked me up, I noticed that.

[Josh Radner]

That she made Blue Apron.

[Craig Thomas]

It came like a little kit. By the time it was ready, I.

[Josh Radner]

Still had shin guards on.

[Craig Thomas]

And it was real food. Fresh veggies, protein, actual flavor taker from the younger generation.

[Josh Radner]

We're innovators.

[Craig Thomas]

Giving a couple Blue Apron meals around. Not the worst idea.

[Josh Radner]

Get 50% off your first two orders plus free shipping with code.

[Craig Thomas]

Listen, 50 terms and conditions apply.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Craig Thomas]

End of commercials back to show.

[Josh Radner]

I loved Barney. Answer these riddles three.

[Craig Thomas]

These riddles three. He's such a demon. He's just a demon.

[Josh Radner]

Well, you gotta ruin my riddles.

[Craig Thomas]

He's just a troll under a bridge. He just worships chaos. And his other like super creepy one is the paint me. The paint me whisper is so fucking creepy. Great.

[Josh Radner]

The golem.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, the golem. Whisper.

[Josh Radner]

Paint me. Yeah. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

So creepy. Neil's funny.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. What about Hammond describing his wife?

[Craig Thomas]

Oh my God. Yeah. That's the dream. Right? That was an early. That's the dream. Like a woman who could. She could protect me in a forest. If we were lost in a forest. She could provide for me.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. I remember shooting that scene with Brian and having a great time because I really had to be the straight man.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radner]

Like I was Steve Martin to his John Candy. I was. You know what I mean? Like I really had to be like, nope. You know, just. And a lot of those simple punchy lines that we talked about.

[Craig Thomas]

You guys had a great rhythm. You had like Abbott and Costello. Like who's on first thing going at the end of that. It was really funny.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, I love that.

[Craig Thomas]

Strongly implied that Hammond's giant wife. Giant, like husky wife. Killed the dog by playing too roughly with the dog. I told her she played too roughly with that dog. Wait, did she kill the dog with her bare hands by accident? That's fucking crazy.

[Josh Radner]

And also just the pile on of like, he's been okay. He's been kicked out of the house. He's living at the office. His dog is dead.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And then so much of this was our Carter and I working out the hard parts of being a boss. Because by season two, we had let a few people go. We'd had to fire a couple of people.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

And thank God, not many. And we had a great core group like Matt Kuhn that stayed the whole time. But we'd had a couple of experiences like that. And that is a lonely feeling. And I think we wanted to put Ted. We wanted to put Ted. Ted was so often our own emotional avatar.

[Josh Radner]

Right.

[Craig Thomas]

Carter and I, like, we wanted to put him in that lonely seat because it's also funny. It's just a super weird, heightened thing to have to do to fire somebody. It's so weird.

[Josh Radner]

But it's, you know, as crazy as it gets. Like all the things I listed, plus then he has a heart attack. Right. Like, that's an insane sequence of events. But it's rooted in this core truth, which is there were 29 year olds who got handed a show and had to be bosses all of a sudden. And that's why I think it works, because it's like the grounding and the root. There's a truth at the beating heart of it, and then you can get as crazy as you want with it.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that was the truth. I forgot that that was the core of that episode. I remember we had a little bit of a hard time, I think, breaking this episode and quite getting it where we wanted it to. I think it bec. But I remember we had a few story problems and I think we had to lean into just. This is what it's about. It's about the loneliness of being a boss. It's about how success makes you lonely in some way and takes you.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. I mean, that's a perennially great kind of thing because I think each new generation that gets successful has to grapple with. Wait a minute. Why do I not feel, like, resolved and like, 100% good all the time?

[Craig Thomas]

I wanted to be in this seat so badly, and I didn't realize it's 10 miles high, freezing cold, and I can't see anyone. Everyone looks like a little heavy, but wears the crown.

[Josh Radner]

It is.

[Craig Thomas]

And it was cool to see Ted in that situation because it's kind of where we were a little bit.

[Josh Radner]

I liked when Barney said, in my body, where the shame gland should be, there's a second awesome gland. He rewrites the rules of my own.

[Craig Thomas]

That May have been one of the only lines I got in this episode.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Oh, really?

[Craig Thomas]

This is not my episode. I think that one was my. I think that one was my line.

[Josh Radner]

That's great.

[Craig Thomas]

I. I probably was like, the red pen, scribble in a few jokes and hand it to Carter guy on this episode. Cause I think we were probably very busy mid season, season two. I was probably doing 10 other things. And I remember Carter felt a little bit in the weeds on this one, But I think he and Matt rescued out a really fun episode here.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. I love how Hammond is dressed as Ted in the morning.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I know him. That was so funny in Ted's jacket that I think Ted then wears in Lucky Penny, which we'll talk about soon. That maroon jacket. Yeah, that's really funny.

[Josh Radner]

Well, at that point, like, Ted had a. He had an established style enough that, you know.

[Craig Thomas]

No. I laughed out loud when he walked in wearing heads.

[Josh Radner]

Here's a logic question I have. Why did Marshall have $5,000 of actual cash at the bar that he's counting? At the bar? That makes no sense.

[Craig Thomas]

Just out in the. Yeah, that was. That made no sense.

[Josh Radner]

But also, like, they're like, he demanded in cash. Like, why didn't he wire. Why didn't Barney wire them? Like, the whole thing is so shady.

[Craig Thomas]

The whole thing's so shady. Why did it have to be cash? Yeah. How does it help Marshall to have all that cash?

[Josh Radner]

It felt dangerous for him to.

[Craig Thomas]

It did feel dangerous.

[Josh Radner]

Like, just be counting $5,000 in New York City bar.

[Craig Thomas]

I think that was. That part of the story. I think had various sticking points. And I think they dug themselves, the Shawshank Tunnel out of that. Problem was that Marshall extorts Marshall turns it around and extorts more money out of Barney.

[Josh Radner]

It's a great reveal, though. It's great.

[Craig Thomas]

I love when that was the key.

[Josh Radner]

When Barney gets outwitted, like, there's something nice. Cause he's so devious and he's. And he often is triumphant in his own weird way. But there's something so nice. I think you guys, you could almost map this out mathematically. He had to get egg on his face a certain percentage of the time. So we stuck around with him.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. You still have to like him. And the fact that he thinks he won. He's like, dance, puppets dance at the end. But he has obviously been completely fucked over and gave an additional $5,000.

[Josh Radner]

It feels like something out of, like, restoration comedy or something. Like, it's very, like, ancient comedy.

[Craig Thomas]

It is very ancient it feels like.

[Josh Radner]

Tartuffe, like a Moliere comedy.

[Craig Thomas]

I think this one was probably difficult for us because it is very old school. It's like the A story is this thing that moves relatively linearly, and the B story is this other completely separate thing that also moves linearly. They don't dovetail that much in the end. And I think that isn't us in our happy spot. That isn't us playing from our hime strength. I like when we can make an episode like this, still just be funny and it kind of breezes by. But I do think that's why you don't remember, because it's like maybe we constructed a story that was just a little less singularly him yim on this one. Even though I like it a lot.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. It felt like it scrambled your brain slightly less than some of the other ones do.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Maybe it's good to have a few of those. I think they're funny. And sometimes we maybe even consciously said, let's just do a fun one here. We'll just mix it up. This will be like a little piece of candy in the middle of a bunch of other. More.

[Josh Radner]

You know, maybe the network was happy with it. Like, the network was actually asking you guys to do more of that at the beginning of.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. The end of season one. They wanted us to do many, many more like that, I think. And we have a hard time doing it. Our br. Just don't work that way. I think that's why it was trouble.

[Josh Radner]

I liked how the narrator says, and that's how Barney paid for Lily in Marshall's Honeymoon. I like it when he comes in with. And that's how. Because it's not just How I Met yout Mother. It's also, there's thousands of other hows.

[Craig Thomas]

It's how a Lot of shit happened. Yeah. That really is the show. We should have called it that How A Lot of Shit Happened.

[Josh Radner]

I remember there's the shot of Ted firing Hammond from his heart attack perspective.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

And people always ask about, like, improvisation.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

I'm pretty sure that Pam or you guys just told me to just say whatever. And I was like, oh, you're fired. Like, I just. Like, you're gone, baby. Like, I don't remember what I was saying, but I was watching. I said to Jordan, I was like, I think they asked me to improvise this.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah. It has that feeling. It made me laugh. It surprised me how like, it felt very natural and thrown away in a good way. You know what I thought watching that Is I went, oh, we had to put a ceiling in for that. You have to put in a pretend ceiling. If you put the camera that low, you put in a pretend ceiling. That's right over 10, which we never. It is so rare to do that.

[Josh Radner]

Because otherwise you'd be seeing the grid of a huge sound studio.

[Craig Thomas]

You'd be like 100 foot tall, roof of a soundstage and lights 22 on the fox Lodge.

[Josh Radner]

My last thought about this episode, which really made me laugh, was so Ted, he's like, I figured out how to be like to get to win back my employees. Right?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

And he does margarita Fridays. And it reminded me of one of the most classic lines from the Simpsons after. In the prohibition episode at the end, when Homer says to alcohol, the cause of and solution to all of life's problems.

[Craig Thomas]

That is a top five Simpsons quote. That one comes up a fair amount.

[Josh Radner]

It's unbelievable. It's just the greatest.

[Craig Thomas]

It sums up human.

[Josh Radner]

Most coherent thought, comedic thought ever. But it really was like Ted just kind of used alcohol at the end to, like, win them back.

[Craig Thomas]

That's it. Yep, that was it.

[Josh Radner]

God bless him. God bless him.

[Craig Thomas]

So alcohol got us out of our story problem. How do you end this? Alcohol.

[Josh Radner]

But we're like, don't do drugs. Drugs. But alcohol's fine. Welcome back. Before we answer some questions, Elvis Presley.

[Craig Thomas]

Elvis Presley.

[Josh Radner]

Welcome back. Before we answer some questions and read a wonderful letter we received from a listener, we have a very special announcement from our producer, Alec Lev.

[Alec Lev]

Alec, is it an announcement? Is it. It's more of a mea culpa.

[Josh Radner]

Oh, it's more of a Don't be mad at us.

[Alec Lev]

Yeah, don't be mad at us. It's a. Don't be mad at us. Yeah. Just wanted to talk really briefly about YouTube and, you know, our. We have a lot of fans online, both in the Facebook group and on Instagram, who really loved watching this podcast on YouTube in season one. And we. We loved it too. We loved.

[Josh Radner]

We.

[Alec Lev]

We. We love the look of it. And it was great to have it up there. And no, it's not. It's not Pierce season two. So just want to dispel a few myths. One, it has nothing to do with working with our great friends Jenna and Angela on the office ladies. Which has been suggested. It has been suggested.

[Josh Radner]

Don't you remember these two? There's only one way we'll take you if you stop doing YouTube broadcasts in the comments.

[Craig Thomas]

They drove a hard bargain there point in the contract.

[Alec Lev]

As long as you have to See, Josh and Craig, we will accept this show.

[Josh Radner]

Show.

[Alec Lev]

So.

[Craig Thomas]

And really, Craig, really, we're just me and Craig.

[Alec Lev]

Nothing to do with Sam, with the great people at Odyssey that we work with now. It really is just a workload situation here. And we. These, this, this, this podcast is edited. And editing on video and editing on audio are just a little different. And editing on video does take a bit longer. And I, I, I don't want to do it.

[Josh Radner]

Alec has children and a wife.

[Craig Thomas]

We love Alec and we don't want him to die. Yeah, we had an intervention.

[Alec Lev]

Yes. So we have switched over to audio editing.

[Josh Radner]

Now.

[Alec Lev]

It is simply easier, quicker, and at its heart, a podcast, you know, old school here, just like the Office Ladies. It's an audio format. And we hear you. We definitely hear you. And in a world in which we could make the YouTube version happen again, we are listening, and we know you want that. It won't happen in season two, but perhaps stay tuned. And that's where it is. So we hear all of you. We thank you for having watched and loving watching, and we hope you'll just continue listening to our podcast. To wit, you folks also have sent in some general questions.

[Craig Thomas]

General questions.

[Josh Radner]

General questions. Wow.

[Alec Lev]

That's.

[Josh Radner]

All right. Craig and I. Sorry, I was sending you guys a text. Okay.

[Craig Thomas]

So I got it right.

[Alec Lev]

So. All right, quickly. Craig Keenan, 99, says, Any story or reason behind Marshall playing Super Mario World on Nintendo in the throwback scene with Lily and his dorm room?

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Correct.

[Craig Thomas]

No, that's a, that's an easy one. I don't think there's any significance. Unless Matt Kuhn had. I wonder what they're going for there. I don't know video games well enough to even know what they're hinting at.

[Alec Lev]

There, but come on, Super Nintendo was a huge part of Howard.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, okay. No, making it Super Nintendo was definitely like, yeah. Capturing our 90s college.

[Josh Radner]

But again, Craig, I think that because the show had so many embedded symbols.

[Craig Thomas]

People look for it.

[Josh Radner]

People look for it. It's just natural. It probably is. Just Dave Baker probably pulled that.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Alec did have a Super Nintendo when he and I lived together in college, and we obsessed over a different game called Bomberman that we played, Tulip four in the morning, screaming and keeping our housemates up. So we should have. We missed a bet. We should have made it. That you did.

[Alec Lev]

But also, let's be clear, when Craig just visited here In Los Angeles, 30 years after we used to play that game, he and I and our two friends got together and played Super Bomberman.

[Craig Thomas]

For a while I was out on LA on a fancy book tour for my debut novel. And then after various book events I went and played Bomberman with Alec and Joel and Nell just to take the edge at age 50, just the way Norman Mailer would have.

[Alec Lev]

So Mick Giggers, perhaps 21, asks, how did you decide on Lily's art style? Like how good or advanced it was or wasn't? And then was it always the same person painting her art?

[Craig Thomas]

I was trying to remember this and it's a great question and I'm really upset at my aging brain for not fully remembering this. I think Jenni Hendrix, our writer's assistant, along with Matt Kuhn, wonderful writer's assistant who graduated to writing for the show too. She did a lot of the art you practical art you hold that would be held up on camera. I'm pretty sure. I think she did those too, but I can't remember. I will, maybe we can. I'll try to verify this, but I was wondering about it. I meant to look into it and I didn't. Here I'm going to text Pam Freeman as we talk. May stall for a minute.

[Josh Radner]

I kind of like the art is in this weird liminal space between Is that like amateurish or like Matisse?

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radner]

Like I don't know, I can't tell if that's like excellent or not great.

[Craig Thomas]

It's. Yeah. And I'm sure we debated that a little bit. Like no, she's, she's not supposed to be like a world class portrait. She also one of them is from 20, you know, however many years. Not 20 years, 10 years earlier. So yeah, I, yeah, I forget who really did it.

[Alec Lev]

Well, we have a great letter here and our own Craig Thomas is going.

[Josh Radner]

To.

[Craig Thomas]

It and we'll see if I get an answer. This is from Jacob from Nashville. Dear Craig, Josh and Alec, I have truly been enjoying the podcast. It's been so much fun to go episode by episode with you through my favorite show of all time. In fall 2005, I was a freshman in high school. I convinced my parents that we should watch the pilot during dinner, and my jaw dropped with the Aunt Robin reveal. That's in the pilot. Right. The very end of the pilot. Armed with a VCR and later a TiVo that could burn DVDs. Ooh, fancy. I made sure that my friend group didn't miss an episode. By the time the show was syndicated on Lifetime, we were syndicated many places. One of them was Lifetime. Weirdly, I had already memorized several of my favorite episodes. Himyim became the shorthand to talk about our lives. If someone was a little too obsessed with fairness, they were a lily. When I had a crush on someone new, they would try to rein in my Ted. We burned copies of the Get Psyched mix and had them in our first cars. I got a 98% on an essay my sophomore year of college on how Hymnum was a classic Buildings Roman using postmodern storytelling. Happy to share the final draft? Please do. By the way, please send that to us. The finale aired during the first year of what would eventually be a seven year journey to get my Master's and my PhD in Speech Language Pathology. I entered the age where the characters start when I needed them most. I had my first major depressive episode. I gained weight. I dealt with loss and separation for the first time. Himiam showed me that all of these things could happen and helped me to handle them with as much grace as I could. Though along the way I felt myself becoming jaded. In 2020, as I finished my dissertation, I purposely decided to control what I could and live my life out of order. I was ready to be a dad and so I signed up to be a foster parent. I finished my dissertation and the foster care classes during lockdown and accepted my first case. The day after I defended, though, I experienced more trials with navigating the beginning of my career and foster children. My wonderful son Jackson came into my life in June 2022. His adoption will be finalized around October. In a very Ted like roundabout way, that does lead me to my recent re embrace of my inner Ted at 34. When I met my new co worker Kat in 2021, she was engaged. Eight months after her wedding, Kat Mose beat me. She told me that she loved me. I told her that we had to stop hanging out because it violated the terms of her relationship. She told she and her husband were separating. Their divorce was final by the end of 2024. As I started to listen to the podcast after its premiere and watch the episodes again, all my nascent romanticism came back to me. By the time your Matchmaker episode aired, I had asked Kat out on an official date and we've been dating ever since. Our friends have commented that it feels like a sitcom ending, and I've been quick to point out that it's a himyum ending. You asked what makes this show resonate with people? Ted taught me that I could live my life in a different order from my friends. He taught me that I should take the leap. Metaphorical leap, of course. He taught me that I didn't need to be the hero of the story for my family and my chosen family to still love me and accept me in a way. I have this show and this podcast to thank for my beautiful family from the bottom of my very full heart. From one Ted to another, all I can say is thank you.

[Josh Radner]

Talk about a nonlinear narrative.

[Craig Thomas]

Really. I know.

[Josh Radner]

That's fantastic.

[Craig Thomas]

That is a beautifully non linear narrative. I love him deciding in the moment to live his life out of order and out of sequence and have fun with editing in his own life to fix it in post.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, you know we always talk about like musicians get to soundtrack people's lives. Like this is a weird show. It soundtracks people's lives. It's like a sitcom that is a soundtrack.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, that's right. It's a beautiful thing. It's a gift. Best fans ever. Thanks for sharing stories.

[Josh Radner]

Thanks. If you want to write in a letter or a voice note that maybe we'll play or read on the show, please go to how we madeyourmother.com, h w m y m.com and go up to Contact and just follow the directions. It's pretty self explanatory. We were delighted to spend this time with you Craig. I love you Alec. I love you.

[Craig Thomas]

Love you buddy. By the way, Pam Freeman texted. Pretty sure it was Jenny but not sure. We'll find out and we'll post it in the show notes. We all have amnesia so that's all just aging in real time.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

So.

[Josh Radner]

Well thanks also to to Doug and Alex and Emily and our whole team over here and and Jenna and Angela and everyone at Odyssey. Thanks for tuning in and if you love this show and you know other How I Met yout Month friends who aren't watch listening somehow we don't watch anymore. We just listen. Please do them a favor and tell them about the show and we'll see you next time. Thanks so much. I am guilty. Please acquit me. All sins are forgiven In New York.

[Alec Lev]

City, How We Made youe Mother is hosted, an executive produced by Josh Radner and Craig Thomas and is presented and distributed by the Office Ladies Network and Odyssey. This episode is also executive produced by Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey. The show is produced and edited by me, Alec Lev and our co producer is Doug Matica. Our audio producer and mixer is Alex Reeves at Point of Blue Studios. Our digital Content producer, AKA Gen Z Master is Emily Blumberg. Artwork by John Morrow. Please follow rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or your podcast player of choice. It really does help the show. Our theme song is New York City by our own Josh Radner, with additional music by Craig Thomas and Andrew Majewski. Special thanks to Lola Kennedy and Elliot Connors. Visit how we madeyourmother.com to learn more and click on the contact page to send us an email or a voice message. Your stories and questions are an important part of the show. Subscribe to Josh Radner's Muse letters on Substack and check out his music and everything [e-mail] Order Craig Thomas dates debut novel that's Not How It Happened, wherever books are sold, and check out his other published [e-mail] and you can subscribe to My own Dead Fathers Society, also on Substack to learn more about how you make a difference, this show's ongoing campaign to raise money for congenital pediatric heart disease research, Check out the Make a Difference tab at the top of our website. People will, in fact dance.

[Craig Thomas]

The real.

[Josh Radner]

Question it just hit me. Am I in love with you or just New York City.