How We Returned a Shirt | S1E4 “Return of the Shirt”

Summary

How We Made Your Mother - Episode Summary: "Return of the Shirt" (S1E4)

Introduction

In the fourth episode of the first season of How We Made Your Mother podcast, hosts Josh Radner and Craig Thomas delve into their exploration of the iconic sitcom How I Met Your Mother (HIMYM). This episode, titled "Return of the Shirt," focuses on dissecting the intricacies of HIMYM’s Season 1, Episode 4, originally aired on October 10, 2005. Joined by special guest Courtney Kang, the writer of the episode, the hosts uncover the layers that contribute to the show's enduring legacy in pop culture.

Episode Overview

"Return of the Shirt" is a pivotal episode in HIMYM’s early development, emphasizing the complexities of dating and relationships through the lens of Ted Mosby’s (played by Josh Radner) experiences. The episode centers around Ted attempting to rekindle a past relationship in the most awkward and comedic manner possible, culminating in a memorable physical altercation.

Themes and Insights

The primary theme discussed in this podcast episode is the agony of breakups and the human tendency to romanticize past relationships. Jordan from Indiana shares her personal connection to the episode, noting how watching it during a difficult breakup provided her solace and a new perspective on love and self-growth.

Jordan [01:00]: "I started my third viewing of How I Met Your Mother. My first girlfriend had just broken up with me, and the show felt like the only thing that could get me."

Craig Thomas emphasizes the universal struggle of ending relationships, highlighting how the episode portrays both the difficulty of being broken up with and the challenge of initiating a breakup without causing undue hurt.

Craig Thomas [06:33]: "I think that's the beauty of this show."

Character Development

The discussion delves into the nuanced portrayal of Ted Mosby, showcasing his vulnerabilities and imperfections. The hosts appreciate how this episode marks the first instance where Ted exhibits visible physical consequences from his actions, adding depth to his character.

Josh Radner [07:39]: "It was the first time like Ted shows up black and blue, but not the last."

Kaley Cuoco reflects on how the cast, writing staff, and crew were all contemporaries, allowing for authentic storytelling that resonated with the audience.

Kaley Cuoco [04:06]: "We were all going through it with the gang. And I think that was totally informing the stories."

Memorable Moments and Anecdotes

Several standout moments from the episode are highlighted, including the triple reveal involving the answering machine, the surprise party, and the comedic yet brutal conclusion where Ted is physically ejected by his ex-girlfriend.

Josh Radner [37:14]: "It was like, I'm on a show that's using a Belle and Sebastian song as the central theme. I couldn't believe my good fortune."

Kaley Cuoco shares personal memories from the filming, such as the introduction of sock monkeys and the spontaneous creativity in the writer's room that led to iconic gags like the "Ineffable" joke.

Kaley Cuoco [25:31]: "The sock monkey thing was a great reveal."

Behind the Scenes and Writing Process

Courtney Kang provides an in-depth look into the collaborative nature of the writer's room, explaining how real-life experiences and collective brainstorming sessions birthed the episode’s storyline. She discusses the balance between individual creative input and the cohesive direction set by the showrunners.

Courtney Kang [28:32]: "The way How I Met Your Mother broke stories was it always started from a real thing that happened to me or something I noticed."

The hosts and guest reflect on the challenges of maintaining authenticity while infusing humor, ensuring that the characters remain relatable yet entertaining.

Josh Radner [40:10]: "It was marrying this, like, truthful indie film world with a sitcom... It really keeps it grounded in sitcom land, but also in another truthful space."

Listener Reactions

Listeners have shared profound connections to the episode, describing how it served as both entertainment and catharsis during personal hardships. Amy's heartfelt message exemplifies the show's ability to blend humor with genuine emotional resonance.

Amy [66:09]: "The show is cathartic. It's a comfort and love in my heart."

Conclusion

"Return of the Shirt" encapsulates the essence of How I Met Your Mother—a blend of humor, heartfelt storytelling, and relatable character arcs. Through detailed analysis and personal anecdotes, Josh Radner, Craig Thomas, and Courtney Kang illustrate why this episode, and the series as a whole, continues to hold a cherished place in the hearts of fans worldwide.

Notable Quotes

• Jordan [01:09]: "I was practically shouting at Ted the entire episode."

• Kaley Cuoco [05:15]: "It's hard to break up with people..."

• Josh Radner [07:39]: "It's the first time like Ted shows up black and blue, but not the last."

• Craig Thomas [28:32]: "We started talking about how it's hard to break up with people..."

• Kaley Cuoco [25:31]: "The sock monkey thing was a great reveal."

• Amy [66:09]: "The show is cathartic. It's a comfort and love in my heart."

Final Thoughts

This episode of How We Made Your Mother not only celebrates the creative process behind a beloved sitcom but also underscores the deep emotional connections fans develop with the characters and stories. By dissecting "Return of the Shirt," the hosts and guest offer valuable insights into the craftsmanship that makes HIMYM a timeless piece of television.

Transcript

[Kaley Cuoco]

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[Jordan]

Go to your happy price.

[Craig Thomas]

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[Josh Radner]

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[Craig Thomas]

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[Josh Radner]

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[Jordan]

My name is Jordan, and I'm from Indiana. Last summer, I started my third viewing of How I Met yout Mother. My first girlfriend had just broken up with me, and the show felt like the only thing that could get me.

[Craig Thomas]

Through those first three days.

[Jordan]

I remember watching Return of the Shirt very distinctly. I was practically shouting at Ted the entire episode. And while the topic hit a little close to home, at that point, I realized how interesting it was to be able to view this show with that new perspective, one of someone who had been broken up with.

[Craig Thomas]

I think that's the beauty of this show.

[Jordan]

I get something new out of it every single time I watch it.

[Josh Radner]

I'm alone. What a pity I won't be soon in New York City when I see you. Please permit me to tell you everything in New York City. Hello. Welcome to How We Made youe Mother. I'm Josh Radner. I am joined as ever, by my dear friend and How I Met yout Mother co creator, Craig Thomas. Hello, Craig.

[Jordan]

Hey, Josh.

[Josh Radner]

We're talking about episode four, season one, Return of the Shirt. This episode aired when Alec on October 10, 2005. October 10, 2005. Nearly 20 years ago.

[Jordan]

Oh, it's so long ago. It's so painfully long ago. I can't handle it. Okay.

[Josh Radner]

All right, Craig, who do we have joining us today? I'm very excited to have our guest today.

[Jordan]

Appropriately enough, we have the writer of this episode, Return of the Shirt. In the entire run of How I Met yout Mother, there were only two writers who were there from day one. From the pilot, like the pilot punch up session. Right. Hired onto the show. On the pilot there, 208 episodes. Two writers. One was Chris Harris, another awesome all timer, who we'll get to at some point. And the other one is our guest today, the writer of Return of the Shirt, Courtney Kang.

[Josh Radner]

Courtney Kang, welcome to the show.

[Jordan]

Courtney Kang.

[Josh Radner]

Hi, Courtney.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yay. Thank you so much for having me.

[Josh Radner]

Oh my God, we're so happy you're here.

[Jordan]

Thanks for giving us a decade of your life, by the way. Thanks for that.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, thanks for that decade.

[Jordan]

A full decade. We got that.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yes.

[Jordan]

What, like, did we carry? I don't think we got to 40, right. We were both in our 30s and almost got. I think I'm a little older than you. I think maybe just shy of 40. Wanted the show and we did our 30s on how much yout Mother? Right. That's pretty much it.

[Kaley Cuoco]

But I always tell people I started the show in my late 20s. I was, I think I was like 28 or 29. I started the show like single. I had just started dating my now husband and I left the show a mother of two, like staring down 40. So it was those like. And I feel like what was great about it is all of us were kind of in that sort of same age bracket and we were going through what the gang was going through. And that was totally informing the stories like Lily and Marshall getting married, starting to have children, career stuff. Like we. We were going through it with the gang. And I think it, it was like. And we were all going through it. You know, the cast was going through their things, the writers, the crew, everybody.

[Josh Radner]

It wasn't like the, the Hollywood, you know, 28 year olds playing high school students kind of like silliness. Like we were, we were in the pocket of the era that we were showing, you know, and the writing, the.

[Jordan]

Writing staff wasn't like these grizzled veterans who'd been doing it lots of years. And if this show doesn't work out, we'll go on to some other show. Like, this was our shot, right? This was our show. This was going to be our show. We're the same age as the cast, Courtney. We're a little younger than me, but we were basically contemporaries. And it felt like we were all sharing material and sharing stories and we all spoke the same language. And I think that was like, so key. It's really interesting. Okay, so Return of the Shirt is of course a dating episode. It's not a relationship episode. It's like dating hell. Return of the Shirt you were talk about. Do you remember? Because I don't where the idea originally came from of that idea of going back to that person, going back to that person who's stuck in the back of your head and you go, wait a second, why don't I try that again? Was that from, I forget if that was from your life or that was the room. Just that specific thing of I'm going to excavate back and find this person and maybe that was the right person. Did that come from your life? I forgot.

[Kaley Cuoco]

I think, I think there were like two sort of fundamental truths that we got to that I think I might have brought to the room or that we sort of like build on or maybe somebody else did, I'm not exactly sure. But the idea of it really being hard to break up with someone rang, always rang very true to me. And I'm kind of like a path of least resistance person. And so I would just sort of like, ah, it's just easier to like, go along with this. And so I think like, that was one of the germs of the idea of like, oh, like, it's hard to break up with people. And also the idea that it's so easy to look back and reminisce and be like, hey, that person was great. Like, maybe, maybe there's something there, like that's, you know, like, why didn't that work out? And you sort of like, you know, you, you, you talk yourself into things, you know, and I think it's a little bit like wanting to rewrite history. It's a little bit the romantic idea of like, I've changed, you know, and so I think it was like, I think that's what I loved about the rewatch of this episode. I think it's grounded in this, these two very universal ideas that we all fall victim to, you know?

[Josh Radner]

Right. Yeah. It makes me think one thing about the, the agony of breakups, and it's agonizing to be broken up with. But I have found it no less agonizing to break up with someone, especially if you, you care about them, obviously you've spent some significant time with them, presumably. But also, like, I just don't like hurting people's feelings, right. Like, I'm, I, I, I, I avoid it at all costs. And there's something about the, the inability to have hard conversations actually makes things much worse. You end up making much more terrible decisions that hurt people. And I also love that idea of the kind of like euphoric recall of a relationship. Like, you don't remember why you broke up with the. You just. It's like the highlight reel of a relationship comes back to you, and you're like, totally. They were delightful. What was my problem? And then you think, it must have been me. It couldn't have. And I've tried to revisit some of those things. And you go in with the best of intentions, and it's astonishing how quickly you get back to the place where you're like, oh, yeah, this was never. This wasn't right. It's not that they're a bad person.

[Jordan]

It's not that I'm a bad person in the episode. It is astonishingly fast. It's very fast. It's like, I almost wish every time we watch an episode now, my wife and I said, we're rewatching it. I go, I wish we had five more minutes in this episode. You know? Like, I Wish it was 25 instead of 22, because I'm like, that felt very fast. But I guess that was also kind of the joke. Just like the second he gets her back, he says, I've got to get out of this. Which is funny.

[Josh Radner]

It is funnier in some ways. The compression is funnier.

[Jordan]

It's funny, but it's also brutal. It's like, ted, what are you doing so fast? And you don't really know why. You don't know. He doesn't ever show his work. That's. That was my. That was my. He's just ineffable to get out of this. He never even explains why. It's like. It was. He just. It's ineffable.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. So, Courtney, also, do you remember, like, where the. The shirt. The kind of talismanic object of the episode came from?

[Jordan]

I was. I can't rem. I couldn't remember that. I felt like that was your pitch. I feel like that. Like, that idea of going back in your. Like, the shirt is this key that unlocks a door into the past that leads to her. Right. Like that. How do we get there?

[Kaley Cuoco]

I can't remember how we got there. I think. I think it might have been a Carter thing that, like, the shirt, that it, like, the shirt somehow connected it to the. I don't. I don't think. I'm not.

[Josh Radner]

That feels like it could be a Carter thing. Like, Carter would come in with a new shirt and have a whole new personality.

[Jordan]

You'd be like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Or maybe it was a room thing. To be honest, I can't really remember. But you know, what's in. Oh, Go. Please go.

[Jordan]

No, I was just gonna say that's a good portrait of, like, what it's like to be in a writer's room. Because sometimes you know what you pitch, and sometimes it's just like this hive mind kind of. If we ask that entire room whose idea it was, they might be like, I don't know, you know?

[Kaley Cuoco]

Totally.

[Jordan]

It's just an interesting writer's room observation. We keep going. I cut you off.

[Kaley Cuoco]

No, it's also. It's also like a writer's room observation is, like, things that I'm like. I think that was me. I have this, like, fear. Some writers listening to me and being like, that was my idea. How dare she.

[Jordan]

Oh, my God.

[Kaley Cuoco]

I fear that every time I'm honest. Like, I don't. Like, I got three kids. I don't know what I said.

[Josh Radner]

I don't know anything anymore.

[Kaley Cuoco]

In thinking about the inception of the idea, I remember one thing that the room got really excited about was your character, previous to this episode had been pining, had been interested in Robin and had been going after her. And I remember we got really excited about the idea of kind of flipping the scene and putting you in the position where your character, someone wanted you, and you were the one that had to break their heart. And, you know, also, I think it sort of helped to build up the Ted character of. He's this romantic guy who desperately wants to fall in love and wants the great girl, but also, he's a character who women want and who women want to fall in love with. But it's not that easy. It has to be someone great. And so I think it kind of did good series groundwork, you know, that it's like, Ted's not just a guy that pines after girls, and he could get lots of girls. He's had this history. And to, like, put your character in this different light, I think it was like. It was a new sort of like.

[Jordan]

That's a good point.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Color for.

[Jordan]

That's how we got there. And that's the kind of through line that gets you to an idea. Because I think we did. We start off, we said, let's give that extra dimension to Ted. And I also remember. You're making me remember this. We said, let's scuff Ted up a little in this one. Let's make Ted in the wrong. You know what I mean? Like, he can't just be this guy who gives great speeches and says all the right things and stuff. Just the stars haven't aligned, but he's always going to Be in the right. Ted fucked up in this one. He did. This was a bad idea.

[Josh Radner]

With most Ted screw ups. He has visible bruises and injuries to show for it. Like, I, I think this is the first time like Ted shows up black and blue, but not the last. And I wrote you this little ditty to sing to you in New York City. We'll be right back. How We Made youe Mother is sponsored by Better Health. The question for today is how do we get support from a therapist or community? Who is your support system and how have they changed your life now? Craig, I don't, I don't mean to get political here. We're just talking about a TV show. We're having a great time. Right?

[Jordan]

Okay. Where you headed?

[Josh Radner]

With us? Yeah, but this is always like flashing lights ahead. It's about to, we're about to get canceled. You know, that kind of like tendency of people. Like that very American thing of like, I did this all by myself. And it's like, yeah, no one did. No one did anything by themselves ever.

[Jordan]

No one did anything.

[Josh Radner]

We're talking about a TV show that was made by many, many, many people. Many brilliant people. I am the product of, you know, we're both had parents and teachers and mentors and therapists and, you know, leaders and, and counselors. So I don't, I push back against that idea that we do anything on our own. What do you think about that?

[Jordan]

Oh, yeah. I mean, no one does anything on their own. I do therapy every single week. I'm such a believer in it. It's. I talked to the same therapist I have been since how I met your mother. So for that entire 10 years and beyond. And now I do it every Monday. It starts the week off right for me. And one way you can get some help is through betterhelp. They're fully online. They're making therapy affordable and convenient. They're serving over 5 million people worldwide.

[Josh Radner]

That's a lot. You can access a diverse network of more than 30,000 credentialed therapists with a wide range of specialties. I like therapists so much, I married one. Easily switch therapists anytime at no extra cost.

[Jordan]

We can't endorse marrying your therapist, but if it happens, then it happens.

[Josh Radner]

She wasn't my therapist. Just to clarify, just to be very.

[Jordan]

Extra clear, she was not your therapist. Build your support system with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/your mother to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H E L p.com yourmother.

[Josh Radner]

Craig, I've known you a long time now.

[Jordan]

You have.

[Josh Radner]

Coming up on two decades. Right. We've known each other 20 years.

[Jordan]

20 years.

[Josh Radner]

And I can tell, I can tell our listeners, you're a man who, I wouldn't say you're obsessed with clothes, but you like to look good. Yeah.

[Jordan]

I mean, I mean, if you know one thing about it said, you know.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

I will say this. Here's the best thing I can say about quints. We're talking about quints. They sent us a free thing. They sent us each a free thing. You were a gentleman and gave your free and said to your wife, what free thing would you like? And I was a selfish, horrible person and I took the free thing for myself. It sounds like end of the story is going to be. I, I remedied that. No, no. But what I did do was I have since gone back to quints and I paid for a thing because I like their first thing so much. And the first thing is I paid.

[Josh Radner]

For a thing for your wife.

[Jordan]

No.

[Josh Radner]

What'd you buy?

[Jordan]

I bought myself some jeans because I needed jeans and how do they look? But I love them. Yeah, they're really, really comfortable and they look good. Yeah, they're great. Honestly, I really genuinely, I voluntarily went back to quints and said, now I'm going to pay you for something. You know, just if they want us, if they want to send me more free stuff, don't be, don't get me wrong, I will accept that free stuff. But I voluntarily. I really like it.

[Josh Radner]

Quince has all the must haves, like Mongolian cashmere sweaters from $50, iconic hundred percent leather jackets and comfortable pants. As Craig has demonstrated for every occasion.

[Jordan]

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[Josh Radner]

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[Jordan]

And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices along with premium fabrics and finishes. That's very cool. Respect.

[Josh Radner]

Indulge in affordable luxury. Go to quince.comyourmother for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com your mother to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com and now back to the show.

[Jordan]

I mean, it's very Chekhov, the idea that this shirt is in act one and then in act three, the shirt has to get Destroyed. It has to explode. The shirt is hung up over the fireplace and it must be shot. The right wall must be shot. And I agree.

[Josh Radner]

I remember I love scenes that have no words that are very effective. I'm always as a screenwriter trying to write them. I remember shooting the Ted looking through his closet and then seeing the shirt and pulling it out and just I think I said like, whoa. Like, whoa. Like, it almost feels like Samuel L. Jackson's briefcase in Pulp Fiction. It's like there's a light coming off of it. And I remember we might have talked about this, Craig, but I remember I have such a strong memory. And it's so funny that this was nearly 20 years ago, Courtney. But when I walk into the bar wearing the shirt and I think it's Allie who speaks first, Lily. I forget what she says. Like, woo, look at Mr. Shirt or something. And I said, right, right. And I remember in the run through, you just died at that. Like you thought it was so funny. And we couldn't remember if it just said right or if it was right, right. But somehow right, right became a kind of Mosbyism.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Like from that moment on it was kind of like, right, right.

[Jordan]

Yeah. We did that hundreds of times, I feel in the show.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yes, yes, right.

[Jordan]

I love that you remember Courtney laughing at that.

[Josh Radner]

Courtney, you're so new and you're kind of like, is this working? And then you're like, oh, the writer of the episode likes this. Like, that felt good, you know?

[Jordan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And she's laughing at your performance. She's not arrogantly laughing at how funny is my joke? Like, that was just clear. He was legitimately laughing at you.

[Josh Radner]

But I also love Marshall's line. Hot top, bro.

[Jordan]

That always stayed with me, bro.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, hot top, bro. Just one more thing about the kind of scuffing up Ted as someone who's who both desires and is desired and also gets his heartbroken and breaks hearts. Like, I think if you're, if you're in the dating game long enough, you're going to play all the roles. So it's not quite honest to just say like, oh, this is a guy who always gets his heartbroken, or this is a guy who's always like leaving. Like, if you're, if you're in the game long enough. I don't like that term the game. But if you're out there long enough, you, you do end up kind of being a hero and a villain depending on the night, you know? Yeah.

[Kaley Cuoco]

And I like that this episode, like Ted has real flaws. Like, you know, like, it's not just, oh, he's this, like, shining knight in shining armor, you know? Like, I remember. I remember there was a few moments on set with Carter that I think Ted not always behaving correctly is sometimes tough. Tough for Carter. You know what I mean? Like, he. Because I remember Carter. There was like a few moments of him being like, is this okay? Is this, is this, is this bad? Is this too much? And I remember there was like, a few moments I was like, you know, like, you know, because you're. It's in the beginning, you're just sort of like, testing. It's episode four.

[Jordan]

It's the fourth.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

I mean, yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Like, so you're figuring out what this story can handle and what the audience is willing to accept. Totally, Totally. And we hadn't aired when we shot this episode, right?

[Jordan]

No, we would not have aired. Yeah, we were so.

[Josh Radner]

We. We really didn't know. Like, we were. We were inventing this world and hoping that it landed. I have to say, though, the. One of my all time favorite how I met your mother gags is breaking up on the answering machine.

[Jordan]

Oh, my God.

[Josh Radner]

People are gathered for a surprise party. Is unbelievable. Where did that come from?

[Jordan]

I'm not kidding, Corny. Did you have any moments like this when you were watching it? And I'm almost sad to admit this, but I forgot that there was the wide and out that we read. You saw the answering machine. And then there's this other horrific reveal that makes it so much worse. I sort of forgot about that second reveal. I don't know what happened in my brain, but I was like, it really hit me and it was hilarious. And it was also like, God, dad, what were you doing, man? It was like, it's also.

[Craig Thomas]

It's also. But you're missing a joke. It's three jokes, right? Because first it's just the answering machine, then it's pulled out. Oh, you think everyone's listening. And then. No, she's not even there.

[Jordan]

It's a surprise party.

[Craig Thomas]

Come into the surprise party.

[Jordan]

It's a triple reveal. Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jordan]

That was. Was there anything when you rewatched it that, like, you didn't remember and it caught you? I just. I forgot about the triple reveal. I guess is exactly as a way to say it.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yeah, I totally forgot about the triple reveal. Like, it was the same thing for me. I was like, oh, that's funny. I was like, oh, that's good. I was like, good job, us. We were. We were good. I I really did enjoy that. The other thing that was sort of funny was I sort of forgot the Robin Barney story in it. Like sometimes in my, in my head, I. I don't match the right A stories with B story. Do you know what I mean? So when I saw it, I was like, oh, right, this. And it's interesting because I remember in the breaking of it, in the early moments of the show, I think one of the characters we were really still trying to figure out was Robin. Because it was like, Ted loves Robin and she like, how do we make her active? How do we make her interesting? How do we all these things. And I remember I was worried that the, like she's doing this shit on air. Like, will the audience disconnect from her? We thought she was like this career woman, but she doesn't give a shit. And Kobe plays that all so well.

[Jordan]

Yeah, she does that.

[Kaley Cuoco]

She's sort of like drawn to the dark side and there's like more to her. And I feel like it was sort of like one of the first steps towards, you know, Robin became such a fun character to write. Kobe, what she did with it was always so amazing. And I feel like this was one of the stepstones along the way that you're like, oh, this girl's weird. This girl's got some like shit going on. Like, what's going on with her?

[Jordan]

It's the first. I think it's the first one because we've now we've done. This is our fourth episode we're doing the podcast about. And this is the first one where she is purely in a comedy story. You know what I mean? She has other things to do. She kind of in episode three, Sweet Days of Liberty, she's kind of there in a way to service Lily's story. Lily's thing about she has her ring and she feels like she's not being noticed in the bar anymore. And she sort of support. And in the first two episodes, which we keep saying feels like an hour long episode, the first two episodes, the pilot and Purple Giraffe really are almost like an hour. She's the sought after object and she's the romantic comedy heroine, the female lead. This is the first time she gets to be funny. And I think that's a really interesting point. It's a good way to frame it. This is the first time we really figured out she can just be in a comedy story. Yeah, she's so in that story.

[Josh Radner]

It was also like, you guys, it was the first time you were really mining her job for Pure laughs.

[Jordan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Josh Radner]

And there's something. So this is going to sound like such a weird comparison, but Kobe's ability to, like, speak as a newscaster or like a reporter, like a metro reporter was. It just came to her so easily. It reminded me of. This is such a weird comparison, but Julianne Moore in Boogie Nights, like, her porn acting is so genius. Like, there's. There's a kind of culture of. Of there's newscaster speak. Right. Have you ever seen that? There's that woman on, like, TikTok or Instagram, like, who does, like, she narrates her family stuff through, like, the, like, a newscaster voice.

[Jordan]

I haven't seen it.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Oh, nice.

[Josh Radner]

But Kobe just. I always found. And especially when we introduced Sandy Rivers, like, there was so much good comedy on. What was it called? Wake Up, New York. Or what was the Early Morning.

[Jordan]

Oh, my God. What was it called? Get Up, New York. Something like that. Good morning.

[Kaley Cuoco]

I can't remember.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, it was really aggressive. It was like an aggressive title. Yeah.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

But I thought that was a fun comedic. Well, to go back to over the years of Kobi at work or Robin at work and how. Yeah, just, like, how no one was quite watching. How it was, like, this glamorous job, but it was also not glamorous. Really.

[Jordan]

And.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

Yeah. And it's the moment she realizes no one watches. Even her boss at the station doesn't.

[Josh Radner]

Watch the shout out to Janet Kagan's husband.

[Jordan]

Janet Kagan, our script supervisor. Her husband is great as that guy. And the other thing we discovered in that episode, in addition to just how funny Kobe is. And when you give her a straight up comedy story, her physical comedy's funny. That fall that she does, that fall is great. Spanking her butt with, like, dead eyes was hilarious. Where she completely dead inside smacking her butt. Cause life has lost all meaning because no one watches what she does. And this is her finding that out when she falls. That is a funny. I was watching with Rebecca. She hadn't watched that episode since it aired, I think, and she lost her mind laughing. My wife. That fall Kobe takes.

[Josh Radner]

It's also. It restores Barney as a literal devil. Like, he's. We talked a lot about how, like, Barney's like, the devil. He's the tempter of this series.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

And he's literally just, like, cackling and handing out bribes and, like, coming up with ever more devious schemes. And he's. I mean, he's a bit of. He's the joker. Like, he just wants to Create chaos.

[Jordan]

He just wants. Yeah, he worships. He just wants to see it all burned down.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Josh Radner]

You know what else really made me laugh? It's such a small thing, but this is just a shout out to Ali Hannigan. Her laugh, when she like makes herself laugh over the word Booger is so.

[Jordan]

Funny, honest, so natural.

[Josh Radner]

Like Ali. Ali really has that thing of like as if it's for the first time, like she's able to do that thing that is. Is basically the basics of good acting. But she does it so consistently, so.

[Jordan]

Naturally and she, she.

[Josh Radner]

I just felt like she really surprised herself with that. I was delighted by it.

[Jordan]

Her laughing at Booger was one of my favorite moments in the whole episode. It's right at the beginning and she just has this very. You're right.

[Josh Radner]

It's a little throwaway, but it's so charming and funny.

[Jordan]

It's great because it's thrown away. Yeah, yeah. The icky shuffle. Courtney, was that. Was that you? Was that a shout out to your husband? I'm trying to think of where the hell we got the icky shuffle from.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yeah, I think like def. I'm always trying to squeeze dancing into more dancing into things. And so I think that did come from. I think the idea. Yes, I want to say that was me, but if there's a writer out there, that's out there, like, fuck you, that was me. I apologize.

[Jordan]

This is a great glimpse into writers minds. You can't even take credit for one thing in this episode. You wrote this episode. You can say it.

[Kaley Cuoco]

I did, I did.

[Jordan]

A lot of. It's you.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yeah, no, that. I think that might have been me. But yeah, it's funny in my rewatch too. The other really fun thing I thought about the Rob and Barney story is exactly like you're saying how he's the joker. It sort of sets him up as this devil and Lily, it sort of really solidifies her as like the angel on your shoulder, like trying to do good, wanting to, you know, in terms of like the dynamics of the show and like what everyone's bringing to the group. You know, I think it's a really nice, you know, and I feel like it's interesting. Like it sort of sets up the like Barney, Robin have this dark side that they are into. Like it sort of started the bond between them a little bit, you know, that ultimately obviously grew in series. But yeah, it's. That storyline was. There was a surprise for me. I was like, oh, yeah, this is here. You know what I mean?

[Josh Radner]

It's like, the DNA is, like, you see where it was kind of planted in. It's not just Marshall, Ted, it's like, Marshall, Ted, Lily, like, and how invested Lily and Ted are, or Lily and Marshall are in making sure they have that, like, back porch fantasy together with the four.

[Jordan]

Totally.

[Josh Radner]

They want to get. They want to complete the quartet for Ted. And she also wants him to do it. You know, her hitting him, like, 27 times in the episode. Like, she wants him to do it well. She wants him to be a mensch. She wants him to, like, not. She wants him to be one of the good guys.

[Craig Thomas]

I could just shout out, as we're. As we're thinking about this, I want to call to Hannah Wells, who asks exactly this question. And it goes to. Also, Courtney, as you. As the writer, I think. I think people are probably curious about this notion of you being the writer of an episode. This is the first time that we're talking about something like this, where a story is broken in the room, and then you go and write it. But how does that connect to the other 10 writers that there are? And she asks, was Lily always supposed to be Ted's greatest teacher in love, or does that spark happen in this episode? So can you talk about what. What your job is as the writer as compared to what the room is doing and what you're inventing versus what they're inventing? And this question about who came up with this idea of what that relationship would be between Lily and Ted.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yeah, I mean, Craig jump in, too. It's. You know, a writer of an episode can mean so many different things on different shows. And, like, in different instances, it means something different. I feel like in this specific instance, you know, the way I think, what was so great about the way How I Met yout Mother Broke your stories? Broke stories. And the way that Carter and Craig led the room is it always started from, like, here's a real thing that happened to me, or here's something I notice, or here's something about relationships. And people would jump in and go, oh, my God, that happened to me. And so if I had to guess, my guess was we started talking about, like, it's hard to break up with people. And everybody shared their stories of things they done. And it's like, oh, my God, what if Ted has to do that? Oh, my God, then what if it's his birthday? You know, and what if it's these things and it's sort of like, you know, it kind of grows. And that's the. When a Room is fantastic. There's nothing more fun than, like, pitching on it all together. And then essentially, you know, we sort of go, okay, we have this idea. And then you put it up on a dry erase board, and you beat out, you know, the beats of the story of what it can be. And then the writer. I would go off and, like, put it in an outline and, like, a word document. It's like, okay, this scene, this scene. Oh, here's a funny joke here. Here's a funny joke there. And then they would come back in the room, and everybody would pitch on it, have thoughts, and Carter and Craig would really sort of lead, you know, where the ship is going. And I think, you know, you guys were great showrunners in that. I think they had a really clear North Star of the story they wanted to tell. And then as a writer, it's your job to pitch on how we can get there. Like, this is. I'll row this way, you row that way, and then we'll. You know what I mean? And we all knew where we were going. Like, there was a certain tone to the show. Like, it was really funny, but it was very grounded and had heart. And so then you go off and you write the episode, and then you bring it back again into the room, and people pitch on it. And it's interesting because a lot of times stories will change from. And, you know, things will change from a writer's draft. But Rob Greenberg, who, you know, I used to call him, pop up because he was so much older. And I've since discovered I'm, like, now, like, 10 years older than he ever was.

[Jordan]

He was so young. He was our old guy at, like, 39 or whatever the fuck.

[Kaley Cuoco]

100%. Sorry, Rob. But I remember he once said, if you write a script and every line, every joke changes, but the story is the same. And you made the story work. Like, that's a good draft, you know, because sometimes as writers, there's, like, a joke you love or a moment that sometimes changes for one reason or another. It ultimately doesn't serve the character or where we want to go. And so, yeah, so I went off and wrote the script. And fun fact, this is the first TV script I wrote that actually made it to the air.

[Jordan]

Oh, my gosh.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yes. I had written other ones, but the shows all got canceled before. Like, I was always like, episode, like, three or four, and then it was like, you know, got like two and out or something. And so this was a very big. This is a very big deal for me.

[Jordan]

You did not Advertise that fact. When we hired you that you write episodes of shows and they get canceled before they air, we might have thought twice, Courtney, it worked out, but you should have told us.

[Josh Radner]

Courtney, one of the things. One of the things we're exploring on this show is why this show inspires so much fervor and why is it so beloved? And why do people watch it over and over, and why do people watch it when they're going through a really hard time. Time in their lives? Like, there's all these kind of, like, mysteries at the heart of what has made this show so durable. And I think you're hitting on something which is there would be no story that was pitched or accepted to kind of be turned into a draft unless it was grounded in something real. So I think when. Even if the story could spin off into bonkers land and it was lit really brightly on a soundstage in Hollywood, in la, and there was laughter coming through that was piped in, it still had this feeling that, like, I know these people or this happened to me. And I think that's what. That's what. That's what a lot of what people resonate with.

[Jordan]

And I'll give Courtney a lot. Courtney, one thing I love about you, I love many things about you, but you were always so good at bringing in real life stuff and bringing in, like, the basic raw material that could then lead to the story having that feeling. Josh just described just starting with something real. Starting with, like, it's hard to break up with people. Um, it's hard to be broken up with. It's hard to break up with people. That. Starting on that idea of, like, how finding a thing can kind of unlock a portal to the past, right? He finds a shirt, and somehow the Rube Goldberg machine gets created from that point. And from that point, you say the shirt leads back to this girl, leads back to this whole sordid tale of how he broke up with her. It leads to him. Leads to him getting back into her life and breaking up with her again, also on her birthday, in the worst way possible. And culminating in Ted getting the shit kicked out of him. That. That shot in some slow motion of the po. Ted's POV as he's being is that was. And she was so hilarious in that show.

[Josh Radner]

Shout out to Annie.

[Jordan]

Annie Dak was so stupid.

[Josh Radner]

She and I ended up being. Becoming really good friends. Like. Like, you know, a lot of people don't like these people. You're just on stage 22, and all these incredible actors and dynamic person they come to the set and you. Some of them, you really take with you. And we. We just. Hi, Annie, if you're listening, she was so good on that episode.

[Jordan]

Perfect in that episode.

[Josh Radner]

And so. I don't know. She was so. She looked, like, strong and confident and completely woundable all at the same time. Her fragility and her like, I can't believe I let myself this happen to me again. You know, I love the flashbacks to, like, when he's going through, like, oh, whatever happened to so and so. Whatever happened so and so. I always loved when Ted could be like a silent film star. Like when he could just like, drop a meatball and like, have a, you know, look. And that final scene between the two of us at that restaurant, I think is just so funny. I did have this thought when I saw the shirt. I was like, why didn't I button one more button? Like, it looked like two. And I remember, I think the costume designer and I had a conversation, okay, we're gonna not button that one, but when you go out to dinner, you're gonna button the one because it's fancy, you know? Now it's fancy, right?

[Jordan]

So how many days is Ted wearing that shirt in a row, by the way?

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, seriously. He really. He really works it for that whole week or however long they're together. I mean, that's. That's kind of the part of the funny, like, non reality of it is he never takes off the shirt the whole episode.

[Jordan]

It's ridiculous.

[Josh Radner]

But I loved. I loved. You're awesome. Like, I love that runner.

[Kaley Cuoco]

So funny.

[Josh Radner]

It's really funny.

[Jordan]

You played that great.

[Josh Radner]

I think Ineffable is one of the great How I Met yout Mother jokes. I'm not. I'm not affable.

[Kaley Cuoco]

That's a Craig Thomas joke. Craig Thomas. I remember when he pitched that. The room, like, lost it. That was so funny.

[Josh Radner]

So good. So good.

[Jordan]

I'm not going to be modest. I'm going to say, yes, that was mine.

[Josh Radner]

That one was mine.

[Kaley Cuoco]

That was a great joke.

[Jordan]

Courtney's like a good person. She's like, I'm not sure. I'm like, that's mine.

[Josh Radner]

And this old man, he must admit he fell in love with you. New York City.

[Jordan]

And now commercials.

[Kaley Cuoco]

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[Craig Thomas]

This episode is brought to you by Chevy Silverado.

[Jordan]

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[Craig Thomas]

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[Jordan]

End of commercials. Back to show.

[Josh Radner]

I love, I love the lather that Ted gets worked into trying to, like, be a good guy and he can't get out of this and it's her birthday and he doesn't want to do it and he knows he has to do it. And just ending with, I'm just like, super busy right now. Love, that really made me laugh. And by the time he gets kicked by her, you're kind of like, just put him out of his misery. Like, just end this thing. Like, it's really brutal, by the way.

[Jordan]

I think you couldn't. You couldn't. On cbs say, go F yourself or say F to mean the F word. But that's why ineffable was really delightful. I was really worried it was going to get knocked out because it kind of is saying affable, but because we hit it within an actual word, we got it. And that was. I remember taking great joy at the fact that we sort of, like, flew under the sensors radar.

[Josh Radner]

Because it really is a word. It's like the Hollywood code in the 40s. Like, you had to. You had to smuggle stuff in.

[Jordan]

Yeah, totally.

[Kaley Cuoco]

I do.

[Jordan]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Kaley Cuoco]

No, I was just gonna say, I do remember that cry because, like, you would get the memo of the, like, standards and practices. We were so nervous and I remember us, like, running. It was like Christmas morning.

[Jordan]

Did she ding Ineffable.

[Craig Thomas]

It's a word.

[Jordan]

It's really a word.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yes, yes.

[Jordan]

And it's set up early in the episode in an organic way and it comes back around and. Yeah, so we were clever on that one.

[Josh Radner]

I also remember getting the spaghetti thrown at me. And, you know, the crew delighted in that. I remember that. But also having props and costume come on and trying to drape, like, they're trying to recreate the first take so they have to, like, recreate the pasta splatter on me.

[Jordan]

In those moments, you're like, what's my Job? How am I getting paid? People are placing pasta on my body, and that's my job today. That's a weird job. It's a living, Courtney. Even the Robin story, I feel like the thing you just said about you were working on shows. You'd write the episodes. I think you even got episodes produced and shot. I'm remembering this whole story now. And then the show would get canceled before it would air. Right. I feel like even in the Robin story, you were channeling something. That idea of, like, I'm doing something no one sees. Like, you experienced that in your actual writing life. And I always feel like there was something. You always found a way to get some of yourself and your life and some truth in there. And then again, you build this big Rube Goldenberg machine with the writer's room after that, and you say, what's the worst way Ted could break up with this girl? What's the steepest climb to get back in this girl's life? That's how you get to the triple reveal. Joke about it's an answering machine. It's a surprise party. Ted will always be the guy that broke up with her in an answering machine during her surprise party. And we constructed that elaborate thing to create this steep hill for Ted to climb. But it doesn't start there. It starts from, like, let's do an episode about just how hard it is to break up with someone, and then what's the worst way we can imagine that? And he has to somehow clear that hurdle and then break up with her again.

[Josh Radner]

That's where I feel like How I Met yout Mother was marrying two worlds. It was marrying this, like, truthful, like, more like indie film world with a sitcom, because you have this incredibly truthful thing. But then you spin it into this, like, comedic kind of Sunday, right? Like, where you're just like, it's. It's insane. You couldn't. You couldn't quite get away with this in a movie. I mean, maybe like a broad comedy or something, but it really. It really keeps it grounded in, like, sitcom land, but also grounded in this other truthful space that I think How I Met your Mother was, like, really pioneering around.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yes, yes, yes. And I think the. I think, Craig, what you're remembering. So I had been on these shows that all got canceled, and I had recently gone to my 10 year high school reunion, and people were like, what do you do? And I was like, I'm a TV writer. And they were like, well, what shows do you write on? And I go, oh, well, they haven't made it to TV and they don't exist.

[Jordan]

Theoretical shows you'll never see.

[Kaley Cuoco]

They were like, what do you mean? I'm like, well, it happens all the time. Like networks like this was, you know, Post Must see tv, like their money's going everywhere. And I was like, well, you can make shows and then you make episodes, but then they don't air. And so like, literally people at my high school reunion were like, so you make TV shows but they're not on tv? It was literally like Romy and Michelle. Like I invented post its.

[Josh Radner]

Oh my God.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Like I was like, no, like I'm. I am a TV writer, I swear. And so I remember, like when this episode finally aired it, like I had like gotten over the hump and like the curse, the curse was reversed. And so.

[Josh Radner]

But you know what else is weird? The thing you're describing, that kind of liminal state where you're, you're not quite on the air, but you're actually making a living being a TV writer. Totally. Like, you're like, in Hollywood, you're like weirdly successful. People in the industry would know exactly what you'd been doing. They would even read about the pilots you wrote on. But like the back home people, the high school friends. Knowing that you're successful in Hollywood is a whole different game than Hollywood knowing you're successful.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Totally, totally. And so yeah, I think that like, existential idea of like, I'm working, like I'm on air, I'm a newscaster, but like, nobody sees me, nobody fucking gives a shit.

[Jordan]

I think you were channeling that. I really do. I think you were. That's the nugget of reality. I'm gonna do one that's the kernel of truth, kernel of truth.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Stumbled upon it.

[Jordan]

That makes that grounds that story. And then the story is so much fun off of that. And it seems like crazy nonsense, but there is actually something a little bit true, even in that very funny B story. And I think those stories, when you come into the room and you tell the story about the existential feeling of going to your high school reunion and not being able to prove you actually. People think you're lying. She's pretending she's a TV writer. That feeling goes into that episode, I think. And that's what I loved about our room. Our room is very confessional, right? Or people you just felt safe telling stories like that. And then it would lead somehow it would, whether intentionally or not, it would sort of like by osmosis go into a story like that. Like I Don't even remember if we literally connected that. That episode of your life to this episode of tv, but I think we did. I think we probably talked all about that idea of, like, being at the beginning of your career and just wanting so badly to feel like you're important and impressive and the moment you realize you're not. And that Robin getting to go just completely dead eyed and fall apart inside because she realizes no one watches her at all. And then at the end, she has, like this minor victory of like, well, people did watch this thing where I fell in horseshit. Seems to be catching on. Catching on.

[Josh Radner]

There's also something nice. I imagine I'm not. I wasn't in a R. Writer in the room, but there must be something kind of weird and nice about having these autobiographical, like, moments or sketches, like, make it onto the air. And it's not you, but there's something of, like, your beating heart and your biography that, like, went out there and.

[Jordan]

Delighted people in your first ever produced episode, which is also kind of sweet. I totally forgot that was your first. So what did. What did it feel like you shot that episode at the end of that week? Did it feel like I'm really a TV writer now? I really. Or did it take it? Did you need it to air? The show had to not get canceled before it aired.

[Kaley Cuoco]

I needed it to air. Like, each. I was on four shows before this one. I didn't get a script. One, I got a script and I didn't get to shoot it. The next one, I got to write a script and I got to shoot it. And literally when we came to set to shoot it, it was. Danny Zucker was like, guys, I have an announcement. The show's canceled, but we're going to shoot this episode tonight.

[Josh Radner]

So as you can imagine, the energy must have been through the roof when this one, finally.

[Kaley Cuoco]

It was crazy. Like, this was like a wild time for me because this was my first episode that I wrote. It made it to tv. And I think we aired on a Monday and the Sunday before this aired, my. No, the Saturday before this aired, my husband proposed.

[Jordan]

Oh, my God.

[Kaley Cuoco]

So, like, I got engaged. My episode aired. Like, I was like, wow, it's. It's all happening. Like, this is like, you know, and so it was a really.

[Jordan]

And I know you.

[Kaley Cuoco]

It was really special.

[Jordan]

You had been engaged four other times but never made it to the altar and anyone.

[Josh Radner]

That's right.

[Jordan]

This was the one.

[Kaley Cuoco]

This one. Oh, and this is fun. I was. I was remembering this. The Sock Monkeys. My husband. I remember when we first started dating, my husband loved sock monkeys. And he had, like. He had this, like, tiny. It was like this big, like, little sock monkey. Like that from Zack.

[Jordan]

The sock monkey thing. That was. I never. I don't think I ever knew that. Shout out to Zach. I love the sock monkeys. Yeah.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Inspiration. Like, I remember it was, like, on his shelf, and I was like, what's this? He's like, oh, I just think sock monkeys are, like, cute. Oh, which reminds me, I have a special guest who can join us.

[Jordan]

Oh, my God. Is that it? Is that from the episode? That's phenomenal.

[Kaley Cuoco]

The sack monkey.

[Jordan]

Oh, my God. That's so great. That was an excellent reveal.

[Josh Radner]

For those of you. I'd miss you, my old friend.

[Jordan]

Go to YouTube and watch this. This moment. A gigantic, as big as Courtney sock monkey is sitting next to Courtney now.

[Josh Radner]

Was that your pregnancy pillow?

[Kaley Cuoco]

It should have been. It should have been. But yeah, I remember. Well, that was also fun. I remember. I think it was like, Phil Lord. And I think it was like, it was Bill or Chris or somebody was like, dude, you know, when you're a writer, if you write shit and do an episode, they have. They get it.

[Jordan]

They get it.

[Kaley Cuoco]

You can have it, and then you.

[Jordan]

Just take it home. So that's what that was. That was. They got that. They got that for the episode. You didn't bring that to the episode. They got that sock monkey. They said, I'm bringing this home to Zach and this will be ours. And you have it almost 20 years later. That's fantastic.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yeah. And then I remember Phil and Chris were like, well, did you get the. And I was like, they're like, just be like, hey, can I have that sock monkey? And I was like, I don't know. Like, is that allowed?

[Jordan]

And, you know, just talking about the sock monkeys, that image and that, like, we were saying earlier, like, that. That montage, those montages where you hear Belle and Sebastian and see slow dissolves of, like, candles and sock monkeys, and it becomes this sort of weird, abstract indie movie for a minute. That was one of those moments. And I remember this was an episode where we screened it in front of an audience. Remember that, Courtney? We would scream to get laughs for the first batch of episodes.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Jordan]

And it played. This played great. And I remember feeling like it was so haunting. The disappearing sock monkeys to Belle and Sebastian. But then I remember the audience laughed at it. Like, it was all jokes. And I remember, like, you're not supposed to laugh at that part. This is our touching indie movie moment. I was, like, angry at the audience for laughing, which is really insane. But I will say I hold onto that montage of hearing Belle and Sebastian, one of my favorite bands. And that song I chose, that's one of my favorite Belle and Sebastian songs. We ruled a school. And that. That moment of seeing a weird, abstract montage, sock monkeys and Belle and Sebastian, I was like, we are a different show. We are a different kind of sitcom. We don't quite fit in on CBS all the way. Thank God they stuck with us. We were sandwiched between very different shows. On that Monday night comedy lineup, none of them were doing Belle and Sebastian touching montages with disappearing candles and monkeys. And I just remember feeling like that's the show. That's. We have to hold on to that feeling. That feeling in that little few seconds of film. Hold onto that like it is gold and don't let go. Right.

[Josh Radner]

I told Craig this earlier, Courtney, but I remember I loved Belle and Sebastian. It was also one of my favorite bands. And I remember reading the script and feeling like, oh, my God, I'm on a show that's using a Belle and Sebastian song as, like, the central kind of song or theme of the show. And I couldn't believe my good fortune that I ended up on a sitcom that would. And I really felt like I was in the right. I was with my people. You know, when you told me you.

[Jordan]

Felt that way, I was like, I'm so glad we cast Ted as. With an actor who loves Belle and Sebastian. It was just one of those. It was us falling in love.

[Josh Radner]

Well, the guy who listens to Belle and Sebastian is not gonna go play laser tag on Saturday night. Like, that was.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yes, yes.

[Josh Radner]

You know.

[Jordan]

Yeah. It really defines. It defines Ted, and it defines what's best about the show. Those little moments. And episode four. Right. We were still finding it. Those moments early on in the series are like the things you say. Okay, that's a. That's what our show does. Other shows do other things, but our show can do that.

[Josh Radner]

And I think as we continue to watch the show, we'll see. Oh, you guys really figured this out as we went or figured that out. But I think for the first four episodes, it's a really impressive batch of opening jousts. You know, there was a lot that you guys got right or we got right as a team, you know, and everything that ended up becoming kind of a classic kind of How I Met yout Mother. Like, the DNA of it is baked into these first four episodes all day.

[Jordan]

It really is. Yeah. It really is. And I think this one takes a huge credit. I didn't think about this until we started talking today of showing ways that Robin was funny. Right. Robin's not just this sought after perfection, and she's not, you know, she's not along for the ride. She's the funniest part of that episode in a lot of ways. She is the comic relief.

[Kaley Cuoco]

We made Robin the comic religion for.

[Jordan]

The first time in series. For the first time in series, and that's a big deal. And how great is Kobi? I mean, it's just like, she's so hilarious in that episode, and she was finding it.

[Josh Radner]

She had never.

[Jordan]

She had not done much comedy coming into this series. She had done a lot of other things, but not much comedy. And I think this was the first time where she was like, I get to play. This is a playground. I'm taking Pratt Falls. I'm smacking my ass on a live newscast. She just leaned into it. She's like, okay, I get to do this. And this was the beginning of her finding so, so much talent at comedy. You know what I mean? She really found it here.

[Josh Radner]

It felt like someone discovering they're like, I'll just do my own stunts. Like, she looked like she was like, I don't need pads. I'm just gonna do this. She had a fearlessness about her.

[Jordan]

Yeah, she's a. She was a natural. She really. It was. It's so fun to see her find that in this episode.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yes. And especially that end moment with, like, the. The. You know, the. The horse carriage driver. He's so sweet. And, like, she's so moved by him. And, like, her ability to go from the. Like, moved, emotional, like, caring, and then, you know, right into the big Pratt fall is. She's. It's. It's so funny. She's. She's a. That was. Yeah. That was a delight.

[Jordan]

I was gonna say, do you have a favorite memory of the shoot week? Like, just. We talked about the writing part. Do you have. Is there anything that comes out at you? Like that night shoot out on the street where she fell? Like, that was. Those were always fun. That was one of our first night shoots out on the New York street. That wasn't, like, a big romantic Ted giving a great speech or something, right? It was.

[Kaley Cuoco]

It's funny because, like, you know, the shows that I had been on that didn't work were traditional sitcoms. Like, you know, you're in the bar, you're in the apartment, and you shoot it. And I remember this. I Remember shooting the Belle and Sebastian stuff, like the. You know, the sack monkeys. Like Dave Baker pulling away another sack monkey. Pull away another sack monkey. And I remember, like, watching it on the monitor and, like, having the thought, like, can we do this? Like, there was like a. Can we, like, will this work? Can you do this? And I think that voice sometimes, like, as a creator, it's so damaging. Like, just fucking do it. You know what I mean? Just do it.

[Jordan]

It's so refreshing. It's exciting to have a scene where, like, the call sheet says sock monkey and there's no actors in the scene. It's just like, there's sock monkeys. We didn't need the cast for that part. Yeah.

[Josh Radner]

I have a crazy story related to this episode. And, Alec, if this. You can cut this if it doesn't work, but. So Annie Dudek and I, who played Natalie, we became very good friends. And one time I wanted to go to Venice to buy this painting for my friend Jesse, who was opening a new business, and he loved this painting. So Annie came with me. I was going to buy her brunch if she came with me to buy this painting. We met the artist. She ended up truly marrying this artist. She ended up marrying this guy that I took her to. They're no longer married, but they have two, I think, beautiful children. And this artist, Matthew Heller, told me, he said, what are you working on? I said, I'm on the show how I met your mother. Because I actually ended up. I had known him weirdly. And he said, oh, your set designer has one of my paintings on your set. I think it's in the apartment.

[Jordan]

Oh, wow.

[Josh Radner]

And that painting on the mantel skyline.

[Jordan]

Like, is it a.

[Josh Radner]

No, it's like an abstract. It's kind of like red and orange.

[Jordan]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Josh Radner]

I can point it out, but that's this one of this. This painter, Matthew Heller, who I took to meet Annie. And then they reconnected, and then they ended up being married for many years. So I thought that was pretty wild.

[Jordan]

Wild, yeah. There's a bunch of that on How I Met yout Mother. There's a bunch of weird synergy and, like, there's like, little destiny thing, like what the show is about, sort of manifested within the making of the show in some ways.

[Craig Thomas]

And, Josh, we would never cut that. That's how that guy's kids met. How he met that guy's kids.

[Josh Radner]

That's right, that's right.

[Kaley Cuoco]

That's right.

[Jordan]

It's very on brand.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

It connects to what Courtney is saying of like, her whole life from when you wrote this episode, I forgot that you got engaged literally right before it aired. That's amazing. From your first episode, you wrote to 208 later, you know, whatever. Your last one in season nine was like, our lives kept happening during the nine years of this show. And all the while, we were taking things from these new chapters of our lives and putting them in there in real time because we were the same age as the actors. And it's sort of like, right, you was. Like, you had kids, and you're like, now you're pitching jokes and story ideas about being a mom, and this was like, a career. You know, you were mining things from your struggle, part of your career to put into the Robin story in this episode. It's just interesting how in real time, all of that was. We were really mining our lives and living them just right alongside. We're, like, a few steps ahead of the characters. You and I both. Right. Because I had. We both had kids. And, like, it just. It was interesting how we were kind of almost transcribing our lives up to the minute onto this TV show.

[Josh Radner]

Courtney, I have a question for you. Since you were on from basically day one until the final day, did you. Did you feel some, like, special, deeper connection with the show? Like, did you feel like some. Not quite. I don't know if the word is ownership, but, like, what was it like to just be there from day one to the final day? Because I remember you and I had a really sweet moment on the very last day. You just came up and you said some lovely things to me, and I'll. I'll never forget that. And I'm just curious, like, what was it like for you when you look back at the whole kind of decade?

[Kaley Cuoco]

You know, it. Honestly, it was such a gift. Like, I mean, Craig knows this. Like, you know, when you're a writer and you're trying to, like, get your shit together, your agents, you know, you would read all the pilots, and I read this pilot, and I was like, I called. We share an agent, Craig and I. And I called my agent, and I was like, I am obsessed with this show. Like, I love this. I think it's so true. I felt like it really spoke to something. I felt, once again, it goes back to, like, I am these characters. Like, these are my friends. This is what we're going through. And I was like, I really feel like there's a real thing that, like, we're presented that, like, this idea that, like, all guys are players and they want to Just, like, be out there, like, having sex, and it's like, no. The guys I know are, like, good guys who, like, want to find love. And the girls are all like, we're into Sex in the City now.

[Jordan]

There was, like, a shift happen. Yeah. Yeah.

[Kaley Cuoco]

There was, like, this, like, we had the women are in of the Sex and the city part, but we didn't have the, like, men are looking to settle down point of view. And I. I was so passionate about it that, like, I really did harass my agent, who I think in turn.

[Jordan]

I remember feeling very confident in the pilot because I'm like, I don't know who this Courtney woman is, but she really wants to be on this fucking show. I remember feeling. And I remember feeling like, it must be good because she's hunting it down. And you really were. Now, Courtney tell. I think this is when this line was set. Our shared agent, Matt Rice, one of the greats. When you were so excited about the pilot and you really wrestled and threw elbows to get in the room for a meeting with us when the show was getting picked up, what did Matt Rice. What was Matt Rice's advice to you before you came to the meeting with me and Carter? Am I getting this right? You know what I mean? Yeah.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yes. Yes.

[Jordan]

What did he say? You got to say. Cause it became a catchphrase in the writers room for.

[Kaley Cuoco]

It became a catchphrase. And he was like, kang, like, our agent is amazing. I love him. He's, like, amping me up. He's like, kang, it's gonna be awesome. Get in there. Show your enthusiasm. Don't hold back. Tell them how much you love this. Have your jokes ready. Be amped up. I mean, don't Courtney Kang all over the place.

[Jordan]

Don't Courtney Kang all over the place.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Don't Courtney Kang all over the place. And I was like, wait, wait, what's.

[Jordan]

What's.

[Kaley Cuoco]

What's Courtney hanging all over the place? And then I. Oh, I think we were in the meeting, we started talking or something, and somehow we started talking about, like, MC Hammer, the typewriter. And I think some, like, Carter somebody was like. Was like, what's that? And so I, like, jump up, and I start doing the, like, MC Hammer, like, typewriter. And it's right as I'm like, this point. I was like, oh, this is Courtney singing.

[Josh Radner]

We love you, Courtney. We're so happy you were able to join us. I got married last year, and my wife has never seen how I met your mother. So that was part of the impetus for doing this show. Was she really wanted to watch it and fill in this chapter of my life that she never got to witness. So we were watching it together and we have a segment that we don't have an acronym for it yet, but it's something like questions and observations from a psychologist and relationship expert who's never seen how I met your mother, who also happens to be married to Josh. Something like that.

[Kaley Cuoco]

Love it rolls off the tongue, right?

[Josh Radner]

Rolls off the tongue, exactly. We wanted something pithy. So she's sometimes will just tell me what her question is. Sometimes she'll record a voice memo. I have not even heard this one. I just sent it to Alec. But I don't know what this is. So let's hear it.

[Kaley Cuoco]

I think this episode touches upon one of the age old questions regarding romantic love. Is this the wrong person or is it just the wrong time? I hear patients ponder this frequently. I think most of us have come across that issue with someone we've dated at one point or another. But I'm wondering as artists if maybe you also have this with creative projects. So my question is, what is your return of the shirt if you're willing to share with an idea, a concept or a script that didn't work out in the moment but you fantasize could potentially work now.

[Jordan]

Wow.

[Josh Radner]

Whoa.

[Jordan]

That's a mind blowing question. Wow.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah. Well, I think that is a true theme of the episode. It's like you mentioned this, actually I've changed maybe my perspective on this relationship change. She changed because certainly, I mean you hear stories all the time. Like we dated in college and it was a disaster and we reconnected in our mid-30s and it was great, you know, and I think that's what Ted is holding out for. But I think Jordana's question around creativity, like I don't know if you guys are the same way, but I, I always have so many tabs open. Like I have so many projects that are kind of in various stages of completion or disarray. And sometimes something is just sitting there half formed and it just won't catch fire. And other times something that was sitting there, I'll be re inspired and it'll just. The heat will be there and I'll be able to finish it and maybe make it. And I think sometimes I try to honor the piece of art or the script or the song as having its own kind of arc and intelligence and knowledge about when it's going to be ready. So I really try to be in dialogue with the thing like are you ready to open up to me or am I ready to put the work in on this? So I. I've had things that have sat around for a while. I just finished the last song for my album that I'm recording now. I started it on my honeymoon in April, and it was just. I would write like a verse a month, you know, like, and other songs, you sit down and they're. They're done in 20 minutes, like. But I really try to honor the thing and let it be. But I. I don't. I don't throw anything away because I feel like there might be a day where it calls me back and the.

[Jordan]

Debate is always, is it a good idea to go back? It's very much from the show because sometimes you go back to an idea and you have the moment Ted has of, dear God, I've got to get out of this. Why did I go back to this?

[Josh Radner]

Or you remember, you remember why you got stuck and threw it away or stopped working on it?

[Kaley Cuoco]

You know, that would happen all the time in the room. Like, we would be like, oh, we had an idea about, you know, the gang goes to the mall. Oh, pull up the notes.

[Josh Radner]

Oh, yeah.

[Kaley Cuoco]

There was all this great stuff. There was all this stuff. And then you pull up the notes and it was like, the gang goes to the mall. And it was like, that's all we had. Wasn't there more?

[Josh Radner]

You know what I mean?

[Kaley Cuoco]

Like, you remember it sort of more fondly than we were.

[Jordan]

Right. To shrink that mall thing down to just a fake pop song by a Canadian pop star. You know what I mean?

[Kaley Cuoco]

Yeah, exactly.

[Josh Radner]

Mal has to be a part of the show. What do we do?

[Jordan]

We got it in. Yeah. No, it's true. That feeling of going back to the room, notes of something, and you go like, that was excellent. That was gold. This is going to catch fire. And you sit there for a whole day and it's basically, I've got to get out of this. I've got to. There is an energy to these things. There's an energy and things have a time. I agree completely, Josh. I've gotten very woo woo about creative stuff lately, too. It's like, there's a time. You shouldn't have to force it too much. If something calls you back, you have to be honest. Do you want to go back to that thing? And Ted was not. It was. Yet again, in this episode, Ted was not honest with himself. He just wanted the shortcut to feeling like, and she'll be the one, and she'll be the answer. And he's Rushing. And he was. He was not honest with himself about it. And he really.

[Josh Radner]

And I think there is a parallel between relationships and art where I think there's this very, like, American idea of, like, relationships are work. They require work, and art requires work. And you gotta grind away and grind away and work, work, work. And I. And I actually think that effortlessness is undervalued in both relationships and art. Like, you know, we've all caught a wave where writing just feels like our fingers are being moved rather than we're moving them, where you really feel like something's just. You're capturing it. It's just coming through you. And in the same way, like, I struggled in relationships for. For so long, and it really did feel like work. And then I still have work with my wife. Like, it's still. You still have to put forth the effort. You have to apologize when you screwed up and all these things. But the. There is a kind of ease and effortlessness when I. When I'm with her that feels new and different and like, kind of what I was looking for without being able to even say that at the time, because I didn't know that.

[Jordan]

Well, Josh, if Jordana ever gets upset at you, she now knows she can go watch a lot of footage of you getting the shit kicked out of you, starting with episode four, Return the Shirt. She's like, I'm a little pissed at Josh if I find her phone.

[Josh Radner]

And I'm like, why do you have a montage of Ted Mosby getting beaten up? So after our launch yesterday, we received incredible messages from all around the world. They came to us from my newsletter substack page, from the Hoemium substack page, from Instagram, at How We Made youe Mother, and from our website and we're reading them all. And we're so grateful to everyone for taking the time to tell us what How I Met yout Mother means to you. This one is from Amy, and it was a response to the substack that I wrote on my newsletter. And she writes the show came out the year after I first got married and had my second child. But it took a few years for me to watch. First watch was when Netflix still did male DVDs. LOL. The characters were the exact age I was/AM in all the years that happened. Loved that in my late teens, early 20s, I was a Friends fan, watched with my mom and even got to go to on set there at one point. But they were 10 years older than me, so himym solidified more with me there's so much realism philosophy in it. My best friend, who's 10 years younger than me, loves it as well. And one example of the greatness slash realism she often brings up is the one Curly Fry lol. We both are huge romantics like Ted, but we've been through some rough relationships and had to realize we had some codependent issues and other things we've worked out in therapy and coda groups shout out to coda and therapy. So that has changed some perspective on the characters and things on the show, but doesn't make us love it any less. The show is cathartic. It's a night watch still. Sometimes I go from the first episode to the last, but often I let Alexa or Siri choose a number of the season for the season and episode. Sometimes I go to a specific episode if I need to think back on something or process some feelings. I choreographed a Yellow Umbrella ballet to La Ville on Rose last year.

[Jordan]

Wow.

[Josh Radner]

I've danced.

[Jordan]

Can you send us a clip of that? Please send us a clip of that.

[Josh Radner]

Please send us a clip.

[Jordan]

You have it.

[Josh Radner]

I've danced to your songs and many other pivotal songs from the show. I have pop culture him reminders peppered throughout my house, shower curtains, earrings, pictures. I never don't cry Robin saying the speech Ted gives before because so often I've wanted to time travel or skip ahead to adjust things, though ultimately they happen as they should. All just so relatable. I've always been fascinated with the subject of fate, destiny, free will. There's private reasons about who I watch the show with that also tie me to my love of the show. It just is different than any other show and will always have a huge place of comfort and love in my heart. Thank you Amy.

[Jordan]

That's so thank you.

[Josh Radner]

Lovely.

[Jordan]

So nice and honestly, please do send us the footage of that the dance you choreographed.

[Josh Radner]

Yeah, we really need and and if you're listening, if you want to get your voice on the podcast, we'd love to hear from you. Go to How how we made your mother.com go to contact and record your actual voice and tell us what How I Met yout Mother means to you. I am guilty. Please acquit me. All sins are forgiven in New York City.

[Craig Thomas]

How We Made youe Mother is hosted and executive produced by Josh Radner and Craig Thomas. The show was produced by me, Alec Lev and our co producer is Doug Matica. Our audio producer and mixer is Alex Reeves at Point of Blue Studios. Artwork by John Morrow. Please follow rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or your podcast player of choice. It really does help the show. Our theme song is NYC by our own Josh Radner. Special thanks to Lola Kennedy and Elliot Connors. Visit how we madeyourmother.com to sign up for our Substack mailing list and for links to our social media. You can also click on the contact page to send us an email or a voice message. Your stories and questions are an important part of the show. Subscribe to Josh Radner's muse letters on Substack, read Craig Thomas's published [e-mail] and you can subscribe to My Dead Father Society, also on Substack, to learn about how you make a difference. This show's ongoing campaign to raise money for congenital heart disease research. Check out the Make a Difference tab at the top of our website. This Episode this episode was made possible by the support of Backyard Ventures Marketing provided by Tink Media. People will in fact dance the real.

[Josh Radner]

Question it just hit me. Am I in love with you or just New York city?

[Jordan]

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