How We Sat on a Cake | S1E16 "Cupcake"

Summary

How We Made Your Mother: Episode S1E16 "Cupcake" Summary

Introduction

In this illuminating episode of How We Made Your Mother, hosts Josh Radnor and Craig Thomas delve deep into Season 1, Episode 16 of the beloved sitcom How I Met Your Mother (HIMYM), titled "Cupcake." Released on July 21, 2025, the podcast episode dissects the intricate narrative and character developments that make this particular episode a standout in the series.

Plot Synopsis

"Cupcake" serves as a pivotal moment in the series, focusing primarily on the crossroads faced by Ted Mosby (played by Josh Radnor) and his relationship with Victoria. Craig Thomas outlines the episode as a "crossroads moment" where Victoria is offered an opportunity to live in Germany to study baking, presenting Ted and Victoria with the daunting choice of maintaining a long-distance relationship or parting ways. The episode masterfully portrays the uncertainty and emotional turmoil of young love faced with life's unpredictable choices.

Character Analysis

1. Ted Mosby (Josh Radnor)
   Ted's dilemma in "Cupcake" highlights his role as the show's emotional anchor. Craig Thomas emphasizes Ted as the "narrative engine" of the first season, often carrying the weight of relational problems that propel the storyline forward. Josh Radnor reflects on Ted's sincerity and optimism, noting how his unwavering belief in love sometimes strains his relationships:

   "Ted is like a cat with the laser pointer in a way at times." (23:57)

2. Victoria (Ashley Williams)
   Victoria's character is explored through her professional aspirations and personal relationship with Ted. Craig Thomas praises Ashley Williams' performance, noting that her character's decision to move to Germany introduces realistic challenges in Nascent relationships:

   "They haven't been together long, but they really like each other." (04:59)

3. Marshall and Lily
   The episode also weaves in the B-story of Marshall and Lily dealing with financial strains over wedding expenses. Craig Thomas draws parallels between Barney's manipulative tendencies and Marshall's susceptibility to peer pressure, reflecting on how economic stressors impact relationships:

   "Marshall's trying on that suit sends him into this direction of getting into Barney's company." (46:55)

4. Barney Stinson
   Barney's role in this episode is analyzed as a mix of manipulation and a deep-seated need for importance. Craig Thomas interprets Barney's actions as both harmful and stemming from his desire to be indispensable:

   "It's his deeper need. That is the character's deeper need." (09:17)

Episode Structure and Writing

The episode's non-linear narrative is highlighted as a sophisticated storytelling technique. Craig Thomas appreciates the Tarantino-esque structure, where the story is revisited from multiple perspectives, enhancing the depth and engagement of the narrative:

"The middle of the show is we see it all from one side, then we rewind and see Act 3 of the show is sort of resseeing it all from the other side." (07:20)

Josh Radnor echoes this sentiment, praising the episode's ability to balance A and B stories while maintaining economic realism in the characters' lives:

"It presents a rom com with a twist that keeps the audience hooked." (28:32)

Themes and Insights

1. Emotional Intelligence in Relationships
   The hosts discuss how "Cupcake" showcases emotional depth, particularly in how characters handle uncertainty and commitment. Colin's story about overcoming a sheltered upbringing through HIMYM underscores the show's impact on viewers' understanding of relationships.

2. Economic Realism
   The portrayal of financial struggles faced by Marshall and Lily adds a layer of authenticity, reflecting real-life challenges young adults face in maintaining relationships amidst economic pressures.

3. Complexity of Human Connections
   The episode emphasizes that relationships are not just about finding the right partner but also about personal growth and understanding. This is illustrated through Ted's introspection and the group's dynamics.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Craig Thomas on Episode Structure:

  "It's very Tarantino that." (07:31)

• Josh Radnor on Barney's Character:

  "Every expression is either an expression of love or a cry for love." (09:17)

• Craig Thomas on Trusting the Audience:

  "We trust the audience to stick with us through twists and turns." (21:40)

• Josh Radnor on Relationship Dynamics:

  "Life does not give you that." (35:19)

Listener Stories and Impact

Towards the episode's conclusion, the hosts share heartfelt listener stories that highlight HIMYM's profound influence. One such story from Jordan outlines how the show inspired her to seek true love, mirroring the show's themes of fate and serendipity:

"Thank you for giving me hope. For showing that it's okay to be a hopeless romantic." (57:38)

Craig Thomas expresses deep gratitude for these stories, emphasizing the show's lasting legacy and its role in shaping viewers' lives:

"It's the greatest honor in the world to hear these stories." (57:38)

Conclusion

Episode "Cupcake" of How We Made Your Mother offers a comprehensive analysis of a key HIMYM episode, exploring the intricate dynamics of relationships, character development, and storytelling techniques. Josh Radnor and Craig Thomas adeptly dissect how the episode balances humor with emotional depth, providing listeners with valuable insights into what makes How I Met Your Mother resonate so deeply with its audience. Through notable quotes and thoughtful reflections, the podcast underscores the show's enduring impact on pop culture and individual lives alike.

Notable References

• "Cupcake" Episode Air Date: March 6, 2006 (04:28)
• Listener Story Highlight: Jordan from Alberta finds love inspired by HIMYM (56:10)

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This summary encapsulates the rich discussions and insights presented in the "Cupcake" episode of How We Made Your Mother, providing an engaging overview for both fans and newcomers alike.

Transcript

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[Craig Thomas]

Hey everyone.

[Colin]

My name is Colin and I am from New Jersey. Both my wife and I grew up in really fundamentalist religion where we weren't allowed to watch anything that basically came out after Leave it to Beaver. So when we got married, we said we wanted to go back through all of the television shows we weren't allowed to watch as kids. And one of my friends had always said, you have to watch How I Met yout Mother. So we decided to one day, on a whim, see how we like it. And by the first episode, we were hooked. No joke, we went through the entire series in roughly three months. We're all unreliable narrators, so, you know.

[Craig Thomas]

Maybe it was two.

[Colin]

We can go with that. But I didn't realize on the first watch why I liked it so much. But as you have been doing the podcast and I've been listening along, I realized how much of an emotional intelligence and depth there is to it. And Josh, you are becoming one of my favorite philosophers really fast. So thank you all so much for the show. Thank you for doing this podcast.

[Josh Radnor]

I love it.

[Colin]

It has meant so much to me.

[Josh Radnor]

I'm alone. What a pity I won't be soon in New York City when I see you. Please permit to tell you everything in New York City. Well, hello whim yam fans across the land. It's Josh Radner. I'm here with my friend Craig Thomas.

[Craig Thomas]

Hey Josh.

[Josh Radnor]

Hey. Welcome to how we Made your Mother. We are discussing the television show How I Met your Mother. Craig co created it with Carter Bass. I played Ted Mosby on that show for nine years. I was in every single episode. And we're re watching them one by one and we're Having a great time. How are you today, Craig?

[Craig Thomas]

I'm good. I loved that story. That story was kind of amazing, right? Like, that's. To discover how much mother. In that way, coming from that perspective and just be right in immediately. That's really. That's really.

[Josh Radnor]

I also like that it's kind of like we need to join the modern world. What have we missed?

[Craig Thomas]

I love that Leave it to Beaver was deemed acceptable in whatever religious. But anything past there, anything past there.

[Josh Radnor]

That'S where things got dark in culture post Leave it to Beaver.

[Craig Thomas]

I guess you could argue that, yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Craig, I never told you this, but I met a woman, a musician, at this party who was a huge How I Met yout Mother fan. And she also grew up in this fundamentalist, you know, family in the South. And when she started watching How I Met yout Mother, she said her mind was blown. Cause she said she literally didn't realize you could have sex outside of marriage like, that it would be something you would do outside of marriage. And it was just like she couldn't believe it. So.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, my God.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

And did she say how it was? She like, all right, all bets are off. Let's get it. Let's get on.

[Josh Radnor]

I don't think she was a fundamentalist anymore, but she was grateful to us. I mean, there's something funny about, you know, non English speakers turn to it. Cause it's like, oh, we can learn about English. And then people who grew up incredibly sheltered in one way or another are like, teach me how I met your mother about the world of cities. Please debauch me.

[Craig Thomas]

Well, I'm glad we could. That's public service. We could offer up. You're welcome, world.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. Yeah. That was great, Colin. I'm so glad you guys discovered the show, and I'm so glad you could watch it together. And today we are discussing episode 16, which is called Cupcake. We'll decide at the end, Craig, if this was the right title for. Because it seems like half of these, you've realized you should have added another set.

[Craig Thomas]

There's a percentage of title switches. Yeah. I can't say one jumped out at me for this, but I did. There's a question mark on it. I have a target on it. Maybe we'll come up with something better during the show. Let's say.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. Yeah. So episode 16. Cupcake. Alec, when did this air?

[Alec]

This aired on March 6, 2006.

[Josh Radnor]

March 6, 2006. Okay. We're cruising along, so obviously we. This is part of the back nine, as we said. We got an initial order from the network and studio for 13 episodes. Things were going well enough that they ordered up nine more to complete the season for a 22 full episode full season order. So what do you. What do you. Well, Craig, first of all, just give us a quick kind of plot synopsis of what happens here and where we're at in the story.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, this is a crossroads moment for Ted and Victoria. One of my thoughts right away was had we realized how great Ashley was going to be on the show, who played Victoria, we definitely would have stretched this. We would have delayed this crossroads a little longer. That's my. I'm going to give a bunch of notes on every episode. That's my one note. But that's really just a compliment to how amazing Ashley is. And again, they don't break up in this episode. They just. They start this long distance. This is the inciting incident of this episode, is that she is offered the opportunity to go live in Germany for a couple of years and study. She's a baker and she's gotten into culinary institute there. And this is the crossroads moment of they haven't been together that long, but they really like each other. I don't think they've said they love each other yet, but it's that crossroads moments that a lot of people have been at. I think all of us have had moments like this where you go, what do we do now? Do we stay together? Do we try to be long distance? Do we break up? And this is two different sides of that story. We see sort of Ted's day deciding what to do about this. They decide to take a day apart, and then we see the same day over again from Ashley Williams perspective, from Victoria's perspective. And then we sort of see the result of that at the end.

[Josh Radnor]

Right. But, you know, there's also the B story of kind of, it's like Marshall, Marshall suit shopping and Lily wedding dress shopping. And one thing that I admire about how I met your mother that I think we've touched on a little bit is you guys deal with economics. You deal with the situation of, like, these people. Yes, they live in New York, they live in Manhattan. They have a fairly spacious apartment, but money's tight. You know, Lily's a preschool teacher. Marshall is in law school. They do not have $12,000 to blow on on these purchases. So I really like that. And I also think, you know, we'll get into this, but Barney's kind of offer of like, come over to the dark side because we can get you out of this economic hole you've dug yourself into is really smart because, you know, we can have all the idealism in the world, in the real world, start calling children, you know, schools like all these things that are just stressors on relationships. So I really appreciated the B story. And I love. I think this episode is actually quite geniusly structured. And we'll get into that. But what were your kind of. Did you have any sweeping overall thoughts about this?

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I really liked the structure. I really liked that the middle of the show is we see it all from one side, then we rewind and see Act 3 of the show is sort of re seeing it all from the other side.

[Josh Radnor]

Very Tarantino that.

[Craig Thomas]

Very Tarantino. I really like. I really like that, that you sort of like there's a split screen phone call that slides you into one story and then it slides you into another story in Act 2 and Act 3. I really liked that structure. And I forgot how what happens with Marshall and Lily is important in this episode. It actually puts a lot of stress and strain on them and sends them off. I had forgotten how we did that episode called Game Night where you kind of see the making of Barney Stinson. And it's very overtly kind of how Darth Vader became Darth Vader. It's even shot like that. When you see Barney, the first time he's suited up is sort of like our little shot for shot tribute to how you first see Darth Vader become suited up. And I like that in this episode, this is Barney really being Darth Vader. He's really trying to pull Marshall onto working on the Death Star. He's basically like. And he's basically like trapping him into it by over committing him to this suit expense. And then as big as Marshall's suit expense is, and he's walked into this spiderweb, Barney has said for him, Lily's dress expense is even bigger. They wind up like 10k, 12k in the hole in this episode or something like that is a big deal. When you're 27, 28 years old, headed towards a wedding, that's a big deal. And I'd forgotten, kind of. I remembered the structure of this episode and really liking the structure of this episode. But I forgot how important it was. The jeopardy it was putting Marshall and Lily in. I liked remembering it. Did that too.

[Josh Radnor]

A more charitable reading of Barney's trying to trick Marshall onto the Death Star with him.

[Craig Thomas]

Please.

[Josh Radnor]

Is that Barney? Part of his thing is he tries to make himself essential to everyone.

[Craig Thomas]

That's his deeper need. That is the character's deeper need.

[Josh Radnor]

He is trying to get everyone to absolutely depend on him.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radnor]

And it doesn't matter what his tactics are. It's still. It goes back to that thing we said about every expression is either an expression of love or a cry for love.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, like.

[Josh Radnor]

Like he's just crying for love. And you, you know, you saw in Game Night, like, this is a guy who is, like, actually wildly. You could make the case. Given. And again, this is getting back into another episode. But, like, given what we see of Barney in that coffee sh. He makes Ted look like, you know, an action hero.

[Craig Thomas]

Like, hippie Barney is very real. We went very deep there.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

That was no joke.

[Josh Radnor]

And the hurt and the shame and the mask he had to put on to cover all that. It's like kind of like never again. I mean, it kind of. This is a dark reference. But, like, you see, if you watched adolescence. Did you watch Adolescence?

[Craig Thomas]

I haven't yet. I heard it's amazing.

[Josh Radnor]

It's amazing. But there's. There's a. This kid. He. He. He's done something really just awful. And he talks about this moment when he realized, like, he wasn't good at sports. And he saw his father kind of, like, look away. Like he messed up, like, on the soccer field or whatever, and he saw his father, like, look away. And he could feel his dad's shame. And it's just like this wound in his heart that just won't go away.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And it just. I mean, it makes, you know, I think we all. You know, those are those moments you wake up at three in the morning. It's kind of that thing we're talking about heavyweight. You know, we all have our top five. Like, why did I say that? Why did I do that? If only this had happened, my life would look totally different, you know? But, yeah, so I do think there's a benevolent reading of Barney's deceptions, But also, he's pure evil. He's trying to recruit him to do.

[Craig Thomas]

That's the thing. It's kind of both. It comes from some. It comes from this deep need to be important to people. Mostly, Barney's trying to be born to Ted, but he realizes, wait, I can be the dominant force in Marshall's life.

[Josh Radnor]

If I'm the dominant force in Marshall's life, I'm actually closer to Ted. And I've woven everyone in. Close.

[Craig Thomas]

I've woven everyone in. And you don't know where he'll take it from there, but he clearly does not Want Marshall to get married either. He's trying to take Marshall under his wing. He's like, this isn't working out with Ted. Ted's jumping into this whole other relationship. Remember Barney tried to peel Ted off into his world at that wedding? And exactly as Barney's doing it, Ted falls in love from across the credit room with Victoria. And he's like, all right, I've lost Ted. Maybe I can get Marshall. That's kind of his take.

[Josh Radnor]

And I wrote you this little ditty to sing to you in New York City. We'll be right back. Greg. Exciting news.

[Craig Thomas]

What's this news I've heard so much about?

[Josh Radnor]

Well, you know how I have a hard time feeding myself?

[Craig Thomas]

I do.

[Josh Radnor]

And never been able to hold a fork or a spoon?

[Craig Thomas]

You're wasting all. Yeah. What's happening? I'm worried about you.

[Josh Radnor]

No, it's hard as an adult. You remember I made that movie about college and called liberal arts, and one of the things I missed the most about college was the dining hall.

[Craig Thomas]

Right. It's all right there.

[Josh Radnor]

I find as an adult, it's very hard to feed yourself without a meal plan.

[Craig Thomas]

Go ahead. I'm with you. I'm with you on the premise.

[Josh Radnor]

What if you had a meal plan as an adult in the form of hellofresh delivered right to your doorstep, which happened yesterday.

[Craig Thomas]

Are you Don Draper? Over here. What's going on? You've come up with a whole ad concept in the middle of the ad. This is amazing. You're fixing the car while driving.

[Josh Radnor]

We got. We got hello fresh sent to the apartment. The only. There were two dishes. They both looked terrific. One of them was like a creamy pesto mushroom risotto.

[Craig Thomas]

Listening.

[Josh Radnor]

Which I'm gonna make tonight.

[Craig Thomas]

What time should I come over?

[Josh Radnor]

No, I'm not feeding you tonight.

[Craig Thomas]

No. That was a very fast no, by the way.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, no, but I'll take. I'll. I'll take a. A shot. I'll. I'll send you a.

[Craig Thomas]

Okay. Send me a picture second. That's next best.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. Missing you.

[Craig Thomas]

Thinking of you.

[Josh Radnor]

But I will be making it tonight. I'm very. It looks. It looks really terrific. Hello. I. You know, I said hello.

[Craig Thomas]

You said hello fresh. That's what you said to it.

[Josh Radnor]

This looks fresh. They promised high quality ingredients. Seasonal fresh produce proteins travel from the farm to my doorstep. And that's what I got. So I'll be. I'll be throwing it together tonight. It looks like it takes no time. I feel like I'm back in the dining hall at Kenyon College adult dining hall.

[Craig Thomas]

You achieved. You've. You've solved a life problem here, Joshi. Ready. I'm going to say this thing now. Feel great with meals that fit your spring schedule and make the season even more delicious. Go to hellofresh.com your mother 10fm now to get 10 free meals. That's what the FM means. It's not talking about old school radio with a free item for life, one per box with active subscription free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan.

[Josh Radnor]

Hellofresh, Alec, I have a question for you.

[Craig Thomas]

Sure.

[Josh Radnor]

Do you ever leave your house and go places?

[Alec]

As seldomly as I could, but there have been times I've left.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, you get to a certain age and you just want to hunker down and I don't.

[Alec]

I don't want to go anywhere.

[Josh Radnor]

Where have you been recently? Outside of the home.

[Alec]

I actually. Well, I went on a big trip. I went to. I went to Sancerre.

[Josh Radnor]

That's in France. It is in France.

[Alec]

It clearly is in France.

[Josh Radnor]

Wow. How was that? What were you doing there?

[Alec]

It's an incredible town. I was taking a language course for two weeks, four hours a day, immersed in French in this beautiful.

[Craig Thomas]

You get it? You're smarter than us. Just move through, move through.

[Alec]

Thousand years old. But I'll tell you this. It's very famous. Sancerre. It's very famous for wine and cheese. I don't drink wine and I don't eat cheese. I was. I took a lot. I was in the wrong town. But it was beautiful. It's an amazing place. And now I'm. I'm doing research for a project that I'd like to. I'd like to do there.

[Josh Radnor]

Oh, fantastic. Are you aware of how much money you lost by not hosting your home on Airbnb while you were in Sol?

[Craig Thomas]

Boom. You didn't see that coming, did you, Al?

[Josh Radnor]

No.

[Craig Thomas]

You thought you were all smart with your Sancerre language class. Guess what you lost out on making money with your apartment. You could have been hosting it on Airbnb while you were in Sancerre. Alec, your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host.

[Josh Radnor]

And now back to the show. I've now started taking extensive notes while Jordana and I watch this show.

[Craig Thomas]

Lay it on us.

[Josh Radnor]

Is it Robin who says, what's with inviting Punky Brewster?

[Craig Thomas]

Yes, I was wondering how that references aging for the kids today. Because it was an old reference in 2006.

[Josh Radnor]

But you know what? It's almost like saying, like, it's a. It's basically like to bring it back to the obing. It's like a Leave it to Beaver reference.

[Craig Thomas]

It is a Leave it to the 90s. Oh, it is. That's what's terrifying about it. It is about that far and certainly further away now. Yeah, it was that far in 2006.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, I don't think. I think that it's okay to have, like, some of these dated, topical references. Like, it is ground. Especially this show gets away with it because it is a father telling kids about. It's a. It's an. The joke of the show while it was on was, this is the past, but it's our present. Like, that was the whole meta joke of the show. Yes, but now it is like, it's aging in a really interesting way. But if you look at, like, if you read any Shakespeare, like, you have to read that with the footnotes. Like, you have to read when he has these weird references, you have to realize that that was a reference to something that everyone would understand in the theater. We have zero idea what it is. But I also. I also think. I think about this as a writer sometimes. It's like, clarity is great. Narrative clarity is great. You don't want to scramble it, so. But every line, the audience. I don't think the audience has to understand. Like, when the criminals are sitting around in Reservoir Dogs and they're talking like criminals, there's a kind of coded language that is good and appropriate for them. If they leave you in the dust a little bit, that's fine. You're eavesdropping on a bunch of criminals that have their own vocabulary, their own code, you know, and it's inside jokes, too.

[Craig Thomas]

It's inside jokes.

[Josh Radnor]

It's inside jokes. You get up close to, like, a very good friend group. We've all had this experience. You're invited. You're kind of the outsider in a friend group, and you're like, I don't understand 50% of these jokes. Like, this is born. This is built on history and references and all kinds of stuff. So I actually really appreciated that. If you were doing a recut, I'd be like, keep in the punky booster joke.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I mean, it's true. This show doesn't shy away from saying it was the fall of 2006, it was the spring of 2006, or whatever it is, because it's like, this was his life story, and this was the year this happened, and this is how we talked.

[Josh Radnor]

And it's grounded in time and place.

[Craig Thomas]

It's not hiding what year it's supposed to be. It's like, this is the year.

[Josh Radnor]

I liked Ted's line. This is the Europe, Germany.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, I really like that line. He played that scene great. That scene where they realize they're really sliding into trouble. And Ted's kind of trying to half bargain his way out of it, but half kind of charmer. And they're both. I really like in this episode how you guys. You and Victoria, you and Ashley are feeling each other out. Like, who's gonna say the thing first? It was such a great portrait of that moment of a relationship where they haven't quite been together long enough.

[Josh Radnor]

It's a great stress test. Too early.

[Craig Thomas]

Way too early.

[Josh Radnor]

It just comes too early. And they're like, this is going great. And now we have to make all the. I mean, it's not unlike. We're two months in and she got pregnant. You know, it's like. Yeah, it's like, way. You know, that's even more heightened, but it's just like, oh, the stakes suddenly got ratcheted up, and neither of us were prepared for this.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

I loved Neil's response on, you speak Ukrainian. And he's like. Like that little.

[Craig Thomas]

Just a little bit.

[Josh Radnor]

Just a little. Enough to talk to the tailor.

[Craig Thomas]

Everything is so confusing in that tailor's room. There's just a giant birdcage that's like, is there an ostrich that lives in that bird? There's just. It is the weirdest set. It is. And Ukrainians being spoken. And there's. It's. It's delightfully weird.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. My favorite joke in the episode is Gabrielle. Like, that is so funny.

[Craig Thomas]

Makes the whole episode. I would argue that the entire episode doesn't work without the Gabrielle double meaning. Who Gabrielle?

[Josh Radnor]

It's like kind of that thing of don't tell a story. Like, show a story. You kind of. But this is, like, this works just in the telling of it is the joke.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And it's so funny. Like, it's funny without Lily's reveal.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. No, it's funny on the A side. It seems like it's done on the A side. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

I didn't remember this, but I. Marshall's like, how tough he was, how he stood up for his woman, you know, and tossed around this French, you know, mustachioed guy.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

It's so funny. And the reveal that it was Gabrielle, it's heartbreaking.

[Craig Thomas]

You feel so bad for poor Gabrielle.

[Josh Radnor]

Her female friend with a little mustache. She was embarrassed about.

[Craig Thomas]

And Marshall's telling. It's like the bravest he ever was. This is the strongest he ever was in life. It's so bad. I love. Yeah, he's hilarious in telling that story. And, yeah, that was the biggest laugh. Rewatching the episode. That was the biggest laugh for me too. And I was watching with my wife Rebecca, and she had forgotten that joke completely. And she lost her mind laughing at that.

[Josh Radnor]

Jordana laughed so hard at that, too. And also Ali's playing of it without a single wink. Like, are you just like, oh, this friend. Like, I don't know why she stopped.

[Craig Thomas]

Hanging out with me. It's so good, that joke. The other thing I appreciated about the daring of that joke is they're really far apart from each other. We're really writing for the smartest audience. That's the best way to write is you write for who you hope your audience is. I hope our audience is an audience that watches. And remember this aired on commercial television. You had to sit between acts, between the acts of Act 2 and Act 3 of this show. You're sitting through three minutes of Lexus ads and shit. And then you have to remember that little Gabrielle a side. You have to watch a bunch of commercials, go make some popcorn and come back. And deep into that next act, you get the ending of that joke that you didn't even know there was a part two to that joke. And you have to remember that. And it really is rewarding if you trust the audience to sort of stick with you through that. That's why there's a little high wire act between those two jokes. I think of trusting the audience, and I'm so glad we did that. It's my favorite joke in the whole episode.

[Josh Radnor]

It's really. It's that thing of, like, play to the smartest people in the room, but also, like, let the. Let the audience put two and two together and they'll love you forever. The Billy Wilder quote I've talked about.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, that's the best quote you've said. I think you've said that before on here. That's that. That's the best way to write anything.

[Josh Radnor]

This is literally like. It's a math problem. Like, it's like, here's two, and then 15 minutes later, here's another one. And boom. If you get. It's so satisfying. I also really laughed when Marshall said, I'll eat that mustache off your creepy, creepy French face.

[Craig Thomas]

Is that what I'm saying? Almost positive. That was a Phil Laird line, because I remember Thinking only Phil Lourd would think of a thread. I will eat your mustache right face.

[Josh Radnor]

In the case, there's a bunch of.

[Craig Thomas]

Mustache comedy in Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs, I think, where the monkey wants to eat or tear off the mustache off of someone. And I always think of Phil, and I'm like, I think Phil pitches the eating the mustache joke in puffcake, too. I hope I'm right about that. Phil, let us know if you're.

[Josh Radnor]

And Marshall's saying, to be honest, I'm not that proud of it. But to be even more honest, I am.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. I love that line, because that's a very. That's a very real thing.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Just that form is true in a lot of circumstances.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. And, like, I shouldn't have done that. And also, one of the highlights of my life.

[Craig Thomas]

I'm telling the story years later, kind.

[Josh Radnor]

Of bragging, yeah, she's a cat person. And then Ted saying, I don't know this girl at all.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. I loved how Ted just craters in that moment. But that's the stakes of this episode. A good himym episode. Investigate a couple of truths at a time and dive in deep. And the one of, do I know this person well enough? And Ted's also kind of doing the opposite of jumping to I love you, and jumping to. It's kind of the opposite. He's trying to learn a lesson. He's actually trying to stay. He's a little cagey. He's not sure what to do here. And that is what makes it so interesting. And what shows you a different look.

[Josh Radnor]

At Ted, he's also, like, he's really. Except when it comes to Barney, he's incredibly susceptible to the power of suggestion.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes. You know, yes.

[Josh Radnor]

Like, you can rattle Ted's confidence by saying, like, just injecting, like, a little. Little thing, a little worm into his brain that tends to, like, go.

[Craig Thomas]

Or any little seed of hope where all of a sudden you can be like, you think she likes me? Like, it really is. Ted is like, Ted is a cat with the laser pointer in a way at times. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, I had this experience watching Ted in this episode, and I thought I said this to Jordana. I said, on some level, I think I was playing Ted exactly right. Like, he was perfectly Ted. Like. And on another. There are moments when I just wish I had lightened up or loosened the kind of grip on his sincerity and his cause. Sometimes I feel like it comes across a little bit like. Like, scowly or a little bit like. Like, I. There were times where I Wanted him to unfurrow his brow and kind of just be a little more relaxed. And Jordana said, but that's not who he was. You know, he was.

[Craig Thomas]

That is not who he was.

[Josh Radnor]

He was like a little balled up and a little tense. And it might just be older me wanting to tell younger actor me, yeah, like, you can relax. Like, you don't have to hit all you, you know you're doing. You're. It's gonna run for nine years. Like, don't worry. Yeah, like you can relax.

[Craig Thomas]

But we didn't know that. We didn't know that. And so much of season one was us singing for our supper. And one of the ways we were singing for our supper was creating episodes with drives and stakes and problems. And usually Ted was the one, the motor for those problems. Right. He was the way we were investigating these questions. What happens in a relationship when you've been together for a couple months and there's this huge accelerated fast forward to what are we really doing here? And Ted is carrying that weight. In this episode, Ted is often carrying a heavier weight than others.

[Josh Radnor]

He has to be the kind of person who steps in it a lot.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radnor]

Like, if he's too self aware, if he's too knowing, he's going to skirt a lot of these problems. And the narrative needed him to. Not the narrative needed.

[Craig Thomas]

He's 27, 28 years old. He doesn't know. Right. I mean, he's the younger version. This is the older version. Looking back at the. It's so funny. You want to do what Bob Saget, the foot future Ted, was doing, essentially. You want to go back and be like, it's okay, but he had to not. It do be okay in that moment.

[Josh Radnor]

And that was the truth of it all. The times he made missteps and said the wrong thing or the right thing at the wrong time.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

That's what forged him. That's what made him.

[Craig Thomas]

That's what made him the dude who.

[Josh Radnor]

Could step in onto that train platform.

[Craig Thomas]

It is. That's the progression. And we didn't know how long that progression was going to be, but we had to start off in searching mode and Ted had to be the live wire that he was. I'm often impressed by how. How much energy is required in your performance on this show. Other people do get to be off to the side having a little more fun along the way. And in later seasons that's less true. I think we spread it around a little bit more, the stakes of it. And soon enough, Marshall and Lily Will have some more problems on their hands without getting into too many spoilers. But Ted does a lot of heavy lifting and sort of moving the story forward and creating the problems that are being investigated. And that's just where he was. That's where he was. That's where the character was. That's where the character needed to be.

[Josh Radnor]

I mean, he's certainly the narrative engine of the first season especially. So, yeah, kind of the iconic thing is Ted going to get the girl, Marshall, Lily, and Barney in the backseat cheering him on? You know, like, that feels like it happens a bunch of times.

[Craig Thomas]

That's why I liked the Marshall and Lily story in this, because it really does create a new problem that's gonna send them off in different directions. It reminds you they're getting married, it makes them deeply in debt, and it sends Marshall into kind of getting sucked into Barneyland.

[Josh Radnor]

It's like B story revelations become A stories later on.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, we're planting seeds for later A stories that don't require Ted to always be the one with the problem, which is good because it is some heavy lifting to always have to do that. That said, I really like the ending of this episode, being that I really liked the bittersweetness of the ending of this episode, even though it creates yet more problems for Ted. Ted's gonna have a lot of high drama all the way to the end of season one. But I really liked calling our shot that this was not going to go well. I watched the ending of this episode and I thought. I think I remember reading some reviews of this where people hated that. Or maybe just some fan responses or something. Or maybe it was like My Own Mother or something. There was somebody that didn't like it. But I would argue that is one of the best things about I Met yout Mother that we do. The rom com episode, it feels like it's the rom com you've seen a lot of times. And then at the very end, there's this twist afforded to you by the fact that it's a story being told from the future. And future Ted can say, I hate to tell you. I hate to tell you past me, but this is not going to go well. Actually, it's so it makes you want to see the next episode.

[Josh Radnor]

And this old man, he must admit he fell in love with you. New York City.

[Craig Thomas]

And now commercials.

[Josh Radnor]

All right, Alec, let's do a quick lightning round. Summer is upon us. When you think of summer, when you think of summer plans, what do you think of what? What comes to mind? Baseball Baseball. Very good. Very good. I'm gonna say fireflies.

[Alec]

Yeah. In Manhattan, we had fewer fireflies than squirrels. We had a lot of squirrels.

[Craig Thomas]

Squirrels.

[Josh Radnor]

But they're seasonal. They're all seasons. The squirrels.

[Alec]

Squirrels are perennial. Yeah. So if we want to stick to summer, let's do hot dogs. Everything at a baseball game is pretty much where my mind goes.

[Josh Radnor]

Hot dogs at the baseball game, cold beer, hot dogs, baseball, lemonade. And maybe when the sun goes down, some fireflies. That's it. We're painting a delightful scene here.

[Alec]

And I'll tell you something else that I always get. I'll tell you something, I always get pretty high cell phone bills. Right in the. Right in the heart of the summer.

[Josh Radnor]

Well, yeah, but that's something that will. If anything's going to ruin your night out at the ballpark, it's being haunted by a big phone bill. Okay? So while you're planning beach trips, trips to the ballpark, barbecues, and three day weekends, your wireless bill should be the last thing holding you back. Do you agree, Alec?

[Alec]

I completely agree. And that's why. Here we go. I'm gonna channel my Craig here. That's why we're gonna do a fantastic ad for Mint Mobile right now. Because with Mint, you can get the coverage and speed you're used to, but for way less money. And for a limited time, Mint mobile is offering three months of unlimited premium wireless service for just 15 bucks a month.

[Josh Radnor]

What a deal. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring along all of your existing contacts. Ditch overpriced wireless and get three months of unlimited service from Mint Mobile for 15 bucks a month.

[Alec]

Now, listeners to this show have heard the ongoing stories of our co producer, Doug. Doug has been trying Mint out for us for a little while. You should try it, too. He's got. Look, Josh, he's got great coverage, great price. I literally don't know what else matters when it comes to a cell phone plan. Great coverage, great price. Mint has both. Better than those big ridiculous companies.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. The story of Doug and his Mint Mobile phone experience is the second best series we've been talking about on this podcast. So, yeah, this year, skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank link. Get this new customer offer in your three month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a [e-mail] your mother. That's mintmobile.com your mother. Upfront payment of $45 required equivalent to 15amonth limited time. New customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 GB on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.

[Craig Thomas]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills but it.

[Josh Radnor]

Turns out that's very illegal.

[Craig Thomas]

So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Nordstrom Advertiser]

Of $45 for a three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. New customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of network's busy. Taxes and fees extra. C mintmobile.com.

[Craig Thomas]

End of commercials back to show.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, I've been, Jennifer Senior and I have been collaborating around this project, but it's, it's she wrote this article, an amazing journalist. She won a Pulitzer Prize for this article called what Bobby McIlvain left behind. It was about this 26 year old who, who died in the World Trade center in the North Tower on 911 and how his family grieved in, in all these different ways. And there's this diary that her father, his father, Bobby's father gave to his fiance without checking with the mom. And it was his, it was his last journal. He was a, he was a real journaler. And the mom wanted this diary back and the fiance refused to give it to him to the mom. And the journalist, Jen is, you know, friends with this family. She's in the story and she says she sets it up like this journal. What if she doesn't have the journal? And then she says but don't worry, she had it.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And it's like this, it's at the beginning kind of of the article and it's this great narrative thing of like I'm setting up suspense that I'm going to pull the rug out from under because I have other suspenseful things to tell you. We're going to, we're going to disp with the suspense.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radnor]

I'm going to tell you what happened.

[Craig Thomas]

So it creates a new kind of suspense. It creates a new kind of suspense. What is in this journal? We're going to find out.

[Josh Radnor]

It creates a new kind of suspense for me. The new kind of suspense is not, is not will this work out or won't this work out? It's how will it not work out?

[Craig Thomas]

Yes. Yes. How will it not work out? Becomes the new suspense. And I really liked that moment. It really reminded me that how much Mother, at its best is a rom com and a kind of postmodern dissection of a rom com at the same time. Because there's this future knowledge of how it's going to be.

[Josh Radnor]

Future knowledge and the future.

[Craig Thomas]

No, it doesn't matter. But it's. Yeah, I really liked the boldness of that because it's really snuck in, like just a sucker punch at the end of the episode. Just future. Ted. Long distance is a terrible idea because it is. Long distance sucks. It does actually suck. Shit goes wrong in long distance.

[Josh Radnor]

Statistically improbable that it will.

[Craig Thomas]

It can work. It can work, but it's not easy. And often it doesn't work. And just the honesty, the raw honesty of, like, this is not. You're hearing the sweet music. You're seeing the kiss at the airport. It's so familiar. Everything is so familiar. And then the cognitive dissonance of the narrator telling you, like, this was a fuse being lit and it was gonna blow up. Stay tuned and watch. Hal. I really liked that moment.

[Josh Radnor]

I mean, in a lot of ways, it was again, like, trust in your audience. Like, they're gonna stick with us even if we. We defy expectations.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. And some people want the neater's happier ending. It's just the sweet kiss and the pretty song. And then you see everything goes well and the next week, and it's like, I think people think they want that, but it's so boring. It's so boring to do that all the time.

[Josh Radnor]

Life does not give you that.

[Craig Thomas]

Life gives you very rarely.

[Alec]

I loved that also. I love that you're given something you want. Oh, they're going to stay together and just taken away from you. But I think it goes to a couple of things. This whole show that you wrote, the mother's just going to be a person. That's going to be the big reveal. The mother is going to be a human woman who gave birth to children. And you are building it up.

[Craig Thomas]

Spoilers.

[Alec]

You are building it up as a gigantic mystery that, like you've said many times, well, if I just told you the show's kind of over, but also, if that's all you're thinking about, you're not going to enjoy the ride quite that much. Like, we have so much on this ride that is hopefully just as interesting as that. And I think it goes to a couple things that just come to mind. One is the last season of the West Wing started where you skip to the end. You skipped a deck, like, a decade later, and you see that Bartlett, who's been president, who has been sick, is alive. Now, a hanging question over the show towards the end is, will this character die? And I think the creators were like, I don't want that to be the mystery. I'm just gonna tell you he didn't die. Now, please enjoy my show.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Alec]

I think also Better Call Saul and anything that has prequels is in this same genre of. I'll tell you the ending. You've seen the ending.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alec]

I'm gonna build up that it's the promise of Star Wars Episode 1, 2, 3. That didn't quite deliver.

[Craig Thomas]

But Andor did the show. Andor did. I think Andor is if anyone's watching that.

[Josh Radnor]

But it's less about where we're going and more about how did we get here.

[Alec]

Exactly. Exactly. And the joyousness of saying, this is what happens. But there's so many great details along the way. Don't worry about this other thing. Focus on the be present. Be present in what you're doing.

[Craig Thomas]

I love that about Andor, you know, they're all spoilers. You know, they're all gonna die.

[Alec]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

If you've watched that movie, if you've watched. You know what I mean? You watch Rogue One, you're like, they're all gonna die. But what they do before that happens is the story. And, of course, How Met yout Mother is mostly not about the mother. Sorry. I think that's pretty clear.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

It's about these characters and their lives and what led to the ending. And the ending is just one part. And there's no endings anyway. In life, there's one. There's only one kind.

[Josh Radnor]

We jump to the end. But I do want to. There's a couple other things I just wanted to hit in the episode. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Like a How I Met yout Mother episode. We are jumping around. That's narrative timeline.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. Non linear here. I loved when Lily says, damn you, Old Navy and your reasonably priced 3 packs.

[Craig Thomas]

I love that joke. Yes. I should give a shout out to Maria Ferrari. Very funny writer. She was our writer's assistant. She wrote this episode. She was a writer's assistant. We gave her a script in season one. We really made a point. Carter and I meant a lot to us to always give opportunities to our writer assistant and our script coordinator. And we had a lot of great people in those roles who were able to write episodes and move up onto the staff and stuff. And so that's always Satisfying to do.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, what's a thing I notice about the show, but about what must be fun in a comedy writer's room. Coming up with different ways for Robin to denigrate Victoria's overseas opportunity. Yes. So, like, she calls it a donut fellowship.

[Craig Thomas]

Donut fellowship.

[Josh Radnor]

What was the other one? There was another really good one.

[Craig Thomas]

So demeaning. Super important dessert.

[Josh Radnor]

Super important dessert. Scholarship.

[Craig Thomas]

Scholarship or something. So it must be sass in this one. Let's be honest.

[Josh Radnor]

There's some sass, but also the different wedding dresses. Like, how to describe the awfulness of them is like a fun writer's talents. Like, the mullet of wedding dresses is really funny, but it reminded me of wardrobe there.

[Craig Thomas]

They created a great mullet dress. We clearly just wrote a joke, and they had to come up with what it looked like.

[Josh Radnor]

And I think this is one of the few times where I actually said to you guys, I think we should do this, and you guys did it. And it's season three. Was that. Beginning of season three. Was that the breakup beard?

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radnor]

So you guys had me coming out in an early draft.

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, yeah. I know exactly what you mean.

[Josh Radnor]

I went in and I came out without the beard, and I said, no man alive has a full beard and just shaves it off. You shave in.

[Craig Thomas]

You're gonna do bits along the way.

[Josh Radnor]

You do bits along the way. So then you guys, I remember, had so much fun with, like, Chester Arthur jokes, you know?

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radnor]

So it's funny when you're like, okay, you have a premise, and then you, like, unleash comedy writers on it. You're like, Ted's changing facial hairs, different awful wedding dresses. Victoria's, you know, donut fellowship. Make fun of it.

[Craig Thomas]

Naked Man Poses was another iteration of Naked Man Poses.

[Josh Radnor]

Exactly. Where you just, like, unleash the hive brain on the thing.

[Craig Thomas]

It's such a great feeling because you're like, all right, we're on firm ground here. We can just have fun with this. Yeah, we can just. That's a great feeling in a writer's room. Like, you know, you got those five jokes. At least those are out of the way.

[Josh Radnor]

It really made me laugh. This was a little visual joke. But Lily shimmying her dress up to sit on the chair, it's, like, so quick. But she kind of does this thing because she's not used to being in those kind of dresses. Yeah, I thought also, like, man, Ted's talk of soulmates is so. I mean, it's almost like being a young actor and being, like, every audition you're like, is this the hit thing that's gonna change my life? It's like, bro, just do the audition. Like, it's so much pressure.

[Craig Thomas]

Shut up and read the lines. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

It's so much pressure to put on a relationship. And it's pressure for him. It's pressure for her. I just wanted him to calm down.

[Craig Thomas]

She was. She was thinking it, too. She was. He was. He was not alone in thinking that, at least on this part.

[Josh Radnor]

Lily sitting on the cake is one of the great, like, visual gags of How I Met yout Mother.

[Craig Thomas]

I forgot quite how catastrophic that was. Like, that really destroyed that dress. I really. It really was painful to watch again.

[Josh Radnor]

I completely forgot it was about to happen.

[Craig Thomas]

I did, too. I really forgot about it. It felt very shocking when it happened again. I don't know if I thought it was going to happen later. I don't know what I thought.

[Josh Radnor]

And the detail that it's not just. It's child chocolate and raspberries. Like, it's impossible. Like, that is on there for good.

[Craig Thomas]

And it looked so good again, just, like, wardrobe and props and, like, every. Every element of that was so cool.

[Josh Radnor]

Did you. Do you remember. Did you do one take of that, or did you have alt wedding dresses?

[Craig Thomas]

Oh, boy. That's a great question. That's a. That's a good Pam Freeman or Alison Hannigan question. I bet. I mean, they would have had to have. They had to have at least one other. Because you. If it. If it fucked up. But there. I bet. I mean, I bet we didn't have more than two.

[Josh Radnor]

It's almost like a trust fall or a stunt. Like, she sits on it with such, like, casual ease.

[Craig Thomas]

And is it plausible that she's not sure she sat on it. The dress is so stiff. It's like, how did she not feel? A giant cake. She really has a little bit.

[Josh Radnor]

Every episode has a.

[Craig Thomas]

What's it called?

[Josh Radnor]

Like, an ass.

[Craig Thomas]

There's a box.

[Josh Radnor]

Don't probe.

[Craig Thomas]

Disbelief. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Suspension of disbelief. So this is, like, a very minor thing, but I was really struck by it. And I think Victoria says just a very simple line. Robyn, I think you're the coolest. I'm so glad we're friends.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

For some reason, that really, like, pinned me to the back of my sofa. I was just like, that is How I Met yout Mother at its best, in a weird, casual way. Because I can't picture another sitcom having such an unadorned expression of, like, fondness and sincerity. There's no laugh line. And also, like, the juxtaposition of how subtly and not so subtly Robin's been denigrating her.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

But just Victoria's sweetness of, like, I think you're the coolest. Like, she looks up to her. She. She also values how much she places her career at the forefront. You know, she's trying to do that too.

[Craig Thomas]

I really liked Robin in that moment. Robin really lets her guard down and says, Wade, I. As a woman who's trying to figure out career and relationships, I actually have to admit I completely relate to what she's. This dilemma that this woman is in that I've been hating on this whole time. And she. She lets the guard down.

[Josh Radnor]

She has a revelation, like, oh, women have to have each other's backs. Like, we can't be pitted against each other. This is stupid.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah. I really liked Robin in that moment a lot.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. But I don't know, there was something just about that line. I think you're the coolest. I'm so glad we're friends. Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

Really sincere.

[Josh Radnor]

It's actually really good writing because it's just like.

[Craig Thomas]

It's just sometimes people say things like that and there's no butter and there's no joke. Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

I was also. There's a little. It's a little throwaway scene, but it's Ted and Marshall in the kitchen, and Ted is really trying to seek counsel from his friend. And Marshall's just posing in his new suit.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah, that was really funny. Jason's hilarious in that.

[Josh Radnor]

And it just reminded me like, we're all the main characters in our stories. That scene is about Marshall's new suit. To Marshall.

[Craig Thomas]

To Marshall, it was rude to say.

[Josh Radnor]

Anything it's about, but then the flip, which is so funny, like, like, you know, like new pajama bottoms.

[Craig Thomas]

I love the specificity of new pajama bottoms.

[Josh Radnor]

It's like, you know it.

[Craig Thomas]

You know it.

[Josh Radnor]

I've also got something to peacock.

[Craig Thomas]

You know it. I think we had to have the oven open for Ted to have his foot up on the oven, which is really funny. The oven is just open. Does that mean it's like there's heat coming out? I don't know what's happening with that open oven.

[Josh Radnor]

I also thought the ending was, in some ways, like, one of the other reasons I liked it is because, like, Ted has so much faith in himself. Like, I'm Ted Mosby. I can make a long distance relationship work. The power of love will triumph over everything.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And it's a. It's again, his. His kind of, like, passion and his optimism, which. Which sometimes, like, actually makes it rain. Like, he had his. His power of belief has changed the weather in the universe, Right?

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radnor]

So he does. He doesn't have it now, but I'm surely he has some evidence that his belief and his focus and his optimism, nothing can stand in the way of it. But also throughout the course of nine years, a lot stands in the way of it.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

So it's kind of like it's really watching someone. And I think this is true of life. Like, you can only manifest so much before the universe is like, not that.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Or the better lesson for you is to fail here. And you're like, really? But I'm Ted Mosby. It's like, no, this is what we have in store for you. And it's actually gonna be better for you if you trust it and partner with us.

[Craig Thomas]

You will learn more if you fail here. Yeah. I love that. I love Barney admitting that he did it. I most certainly did. And that's just the end of the sentence. He's admitting that he did steer Marshal into the evil side.

[Josh Radnor]

I most certainly did.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes. I love that, Barney. Yep. That's what I did. And the other thing I wanted to say about this episode is I can't remember how much we. How explicitly we planned this, but I think it was somewhat like this metaphor. The metaphor of Marshall is trying on a suit. Marshall's trying on. Of that suit sends him into this direction of getting into Barney's company, which leads to all of this chaos and havoc in his life. Lily's trying on a wedding dress. Doesn't quite fit. Doesn't quite work. And what ends. And they're all these little. They're like these little omens in a way. Like, Lily is trying something on. She's trying on a wedding dress. And what ends up happening later in the season, and without saying too many spoilers, is things do not go according to plan with her and that wedding dress and the wedding it's supposed to lead to at that time, at that chapter in their lives. And just. I love the metaphor of they're both trying on these things that kind of don't fit. And the whole larger debate is Victoria and Ted saying, do we fit?

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. Trying on a relationship, trying on a new costume. But there's also something about. It's a little childlike, like Marshall and Lily are. You know, childhood extends. You know, like, we're in our 20s. You don't quite feel like an adult. But they're putting on the costumes.

[Craig Thomas]

You're putting on the costumes of adulthood and seeing if they fit and realizing the ways in which they do and the ways in which they do not.

[Josh Radnor]

Let's go right into a beloved section of the show that we like to call questions and observations from a clinical psychologist who's never seen health. I met your mother and also happens to be married to Josh.

[Jordana]

So I've been playing a new game while watching these episodes where I ask myself, if Ted were my patient, what would we be working on? And I think given the cupcake episode, we'd likely be discussing when it's important to be an I versus a we. And how when you meet someone in your 20s, it can be tough because there are so many instances it's important to flex that I muscle, if you will, to not compromise too much self for a we. And I think that's one of the reasons couples are actually statistically more likely to last if they meet later in life when that eye muscle is really strong, when you know who you are. So I think I would tell Ted not to despair that if the we doesn't work out here, it's because both he and Victoria need more time focusing on the I.

[Josh Radnor]

How about that?

[Craig Thomas]

That's a good one. She would have been a good therapist for Ted, but then there would have been no show because Ted would just have his together. And there's no plot, there's no context.

[Josh Radnor]

It's true. The writers room, like all the. Only it was on the board. Keep Ted out of therapy. We have to keep him damaged enough to keep the plot going.

[Craig Thomas]

If he's in, there's no show.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. You know, I. I do. You know Elaine De Baton, He's a Swiss philosopher writer, really interesting thinker. He's got some really. He's got a TED Talk. I think his TED Talk is called While you why you will marry the wrong person. And one of his things is like, there's a real benefit to coupling later in life because you know yourself better and you don't tend to blame your partner for things that are actually just you. Like, if you, if you. If you've lived long enough to know. I get funky on Sunday nights. Like, Sunday nights, I'm generally in a bad mood. A little depression overtakes me. If you know yourself enough to know by the time you're with someone, you can say, hey, this is not personal. I get weird on Sunday nights when you're younger and you get weird on Sunday nights and you don't know that that's a pattern of yours. You'd be like, she's making me weird on Sunday nights. Or like, she's annoying me. Like, there's something really about self knowledge and knowing your weather patterns that I think is really helpful in relationships.

[Craig Thomas]

100%. And that's Jordana's right. Ted needed to figure that out, and he had many, many more seasons of figuring that out. And thank God he didn't get into therapy too soon, or else it all would have wrapped up too soon.

[Josh Radnor]

But I think this notion of I versus we is really. Because it's a negotiation. Your whole life. If you're in partnership, like, how much I do, I lean into right here, you know, like, you know, I hope it's okay if I say this, and if it's not, my wife can tell me and we'll cut it.

[Craig Thomas]

She's right there.

[Josh Radnor]

She's right here.

[Alec]

But.

[Josh Radnor]

But, you know, I move. I moved to New York to be with my wife. Yeah, it was. It was easier. You're okay with that?

[Craig Thomas]

She's okay with it. All right. We have approval. We're gonna go line by line.

[Josh Radnor]

She's gonna say, it was easier for me to come back to New York where I had friends and community and I could do my career from here, than it would be for me to have her come to LA where I was living. She has said to me, I know what a big sacrifice that was. I know that you did that for us. And if a job comes up that takes you away, like, I'm. I'm ready for that. I'll go, like. So there's this negotiation of, like, I made a we choice.

[Craig Thomas]

Yep.

[Josh Radnor]

You know, that didn't harm my eye too much. Right. But she says, like, if you need to make an eye choice, I'm gonna we you with you. I'm gonna weed on you. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean?

[Craig Thomas]

It's important to we together as a couple. This is gonn.

[Josh Radnor]

And that's what we're back into. Zip, zip, zip, zip.

[Craig Thomas]

Zip is about. Zip, zip, zip. The episodes all bleed together. I would add one thing to that whole sort of I we paradigm. The other thing you learn as you get older is to dispel the illusion that becoming a we is going to solve everything in the I category.

[Josh Radnor]

Totally.

[Craig Thomas]

Right. Because you think there's some finish line. I think that's part of Ted's mythology, mythologizing that he does. I'm going to find this person and then everything's solved. No, when you're a we, there is an incredible amount to still solve every fucking day.

[Josh Radnor]

And I think that's the, the cold plunge of relationships. Like you think it's going to be like this warm bath, but it's actually if you're in a good relationship, the, the person functions as a mirror where you're like all your kind of out of tune parts of yourself actually get highlighted.

[Craig Thomas]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

And you, you end up, you end up having to work more on yourself to have the relationship be functional than you ever thought. That film and TV taught you.

[Craig Thomas]

The wedding day or the getting together. The magic of getting together is kind of like the making of the New Year's resolution at midnight and there's champagne in the air.

[Josh Radnor]

The relationship is going to the gym after getting the membership in a fit of I'm going to get ripped this year.

[Alec]

Yeah.

[Craig Thomas]

And it turns out you got to go to the fucking gym.

[Josh Radnor]

You got to go to the gym.

[Craig Thomas]

That's the hard part.

[Alec]

Yeah.

[Josh Radnor]

Yeah. But I do think that Ted is under the spell of a lot of romantic comedy tropes that he's watched. Like you just gotta get to the altar. And also if you look at, you know, relation relationships in romantic comedies are all about getting to the point where you can be in a relationship together. They're almost never about actually being in a relationship.

[Craig Thomas]

Yes.

[Josh Radnor]

They're always like you, you complete me at the door. You know, you know, flying to whatever Europe and you know, waiting for the seatbelt sign to go off. Like there's, it's, it's always about getting to the point and then roll credits. So we're actually woefully under educated in what to do once you're actually in the relationship.

[Craig Thomas]

We are woefully misled by the rom com and that's why I like the ending of this episode because it basically says this shit does not work out. Stay tuned.

[Josh Radnor]

Welcome back. As ever, we are ending our episodes with one of our really wonderful examples of the kinds of letters that we have been receiving about what the show has meant to people. If you would like to contribute a written letter or if you would like to leave us a voice note that maybe will get selected to open one of our episodes, please go to how we made your mother.com contact and it should be pretty clear from there. And this letter today is from Jordan. And here we go. Hello. Hello. My name is Jordan and I owe how I met your mother to finding the true love of my life. I've watched him yim through so many times but watched it when it was still on tv. I still remember the season finale, the first Time I watched the first time it aired. I'm from Alberta, but I went to university in Victoria, British Columbia. Royal Rhodes University. Ever watch X Men? For so long I've been looking for a yellow umbrella. For so long I needed to find the perfect one exactly like the show has. Oh, he's looking for an actual yellow umbrella. I thought he was metaphorically looking, but yes, I get it. Okay. For so long I needed to find the perfect one exactly like the show had. I just had this idea in my mind that I needed this umbrella before finding true love. I know that sounds so corny, but young twenties, Jordan truly believed it. Soon I started really liking this guy Bradley in my class and after six months of a 12 month program, we finally went on our first date. He also really loved him. Yam. It was something we bonded over immediately. On our first date we walked around Victoria if you haven't been, it's a gorgeous city. And I mentioned my desire to find a yellow umbrella. Without going into the details above, he took me down a tiny little alley to this very small store. It was an umbrella store. It was there that I found the most perfect yellow umbrella. I was in complete awe. Of course I bought it, but I thought it was too good to be a coincidence. But it's funny how sometimes you just find things. Flash forward to today, seven years later, almost to the day. We're so happily married. Our wedding was perfect. We'd done an engagement shoot with the yellow umbrella and a photo from that shoot was the label for our wine bottles. I hope you're able to see this so I can truly say thank you for giving me hope. For showing that it's okay to be a hopeless romantic. For bringing me to my person, Jordan. Thank you Jordan. Thank you so much. Alec. Did they send a photo of the wine bottle?

[Alec]

They did not, but I hope they will. Please send it into. You could send it through podcastowimetourmother.com okay.

[Josh Radnor]

And I've never been to Alberta. Have you, Craig?

[Craig Thomas]

Never.

[Josh Radnor]

Did you understand the X Men reference? I didn't.

[Craig Thomas]

I think it means it's the school that. Right. They shot the school for X Men. Like the. The Professor X's school was shot there. That's what. Alec. Is that how you take that?

[Alec]

I assumed it was the real school, but something like that, yes.

[Craig Thomas]

Well, that was right. That was the location. And I was hoping he was going to say I fell in love with the guy there. Wolverine. I was like still. My brain was still in X Men land.

[Josh Radnor]

Isn't it crazy? Craig just to consider that if you and Carter hadn't made this show and cast, all of us kids would not have been born. Relationships would not have. You know, there's a real, like, butterfly flaps its wings kind of sense of altering history because something was made that really affected people. And I can't tell you the amount of people I hear from. You know, remember, remember that I became friendly with that soldier overseas who was really kind of depressed and he started watching how I met your mother and then asked his wife to start watching it with him so they could share it when he got home. And you know, that, that, that's not. They were already together. But there's so many stories of people who connected because of how I met your mother or they started showing them how I met your mother and that became their kind of love language. You guys really, you've got a whole generation of how I met your mother babies on your hands.

[Craig Thomas]

It's the greatest honor in the world. It blows my mind to hear that. And we've heard it a bunch of times. And it blows my mind equally as much every time we hear any story like that. Thank you. Please keep those stories coming. Means the world to us. We couldn't have imagined it back in 2005, 2006. That's the era we're talking about as we go through season one here, almost 20 years ago, 20 full years ago, almost. And the idea that that butterfly flapped its wings and the best kind of chaos has come of that chaos theory. And thank you for everybody who shares those stories with us.

[Josh Radnor]

I am guilty. Please acquit me. All sins are forgiven in New York City.

[Alec]

How we made your mother is hosted and executive produced by Josh Radner and Craig Thomas. The show was produced by me, Alec Lev, and our co producer is Doug Matica. Our audio producer and mixer is Alex Reeves at Point of Blue Studios and our digital content producer, AKA Gen Z master is Emily Blumberg. Artwork by John Morrow. Please follow rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or your podcast player of choice. It really does help the show. Our theme song is NYC by our own Josh Radner, with additional music by Craig Thomas and Andrew Majewski. Special thanks to Lola Kennedy and Elliot Connors. Visit how we madeyourmother.com to sign up for our substack mailing list and for links to our social media. You can also click on the contact page to send us an email or a voice message. Your stories and questions are an important part of the show. Want some merch? Click on the store link or go to howyougetyourmerch.com subscribe to Josh Radner's Muse Letters on Substack. Order Craig Thomas debut [e-mail] novel and you can subscribe to My Dead Fathers Society, also on Substack to learn about how you make a difference. This show's ongoing content campaign to raise money for congenital heart disease research. Check out the Make a Difference tab at the top of our website. This episode was made possible by the support of Backyard Ventures. People will in fact dance.

[Josh Radnor]

The real question it just hit me. Am I in love with you or just New York City.

[Craig Thomas]

Mom and dad? The school supplies you buy me this year will mostly end up in my mouth. Maybe shop low prices for school at Amazon so I don't eat up all your money, just something to chew on. Amazon Spend less, smile more.

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