Podcast Summary: "El artesano | Cuadros para los bulos"

Podcast: Hoy por Hoy, SER Podcast
Date: September 29, 2025
Host: Àngels Barceló
Guest/Artesano: Pablo Ortiz de Zárate
Theme: Understanding critical thinking and the societal dangers of ignorance, through Goya’s painting "Vuelo de brujas"

Overview

In this episode, Àngels Barceló and Pablo Ortiz de Zárate delve into how a centuries-old artwork by Francisco de Goya, “Vuelo de brujas,” provides an uncanny prophecy and illustration of today’s world of misinformation, “bulos,” and superstition. Using Goya’s iconic painting and its fascinating interpretative journey, the conversation explores ignorance, the resistance to knowledge, and how art urges us not to abandon truth, no matter how tempting it may be. The discussion also traces the painting’s history and analyzes its symbolism with modern parallels.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Painting as Premonition

• [00:02] Àngels Barceló (A): Introduces the idea that two centuries ago, Goya painted a warning to future generations—us—about the power and danger of ignorance and misinformation.
  • Quote: “Hay un artista español que predijo hace más de 200 años la era de los bulos en la que vivimos… nos dejó un cuadro premonitorio para decirle a las generaciones futuras, o sea, a nosotros, que no nos dejemos engañar por la estupidez.”

2. Introducing "Vuelo de brujas" and Its Traditional Interpretation

• [00:56] Pablo Ortiz (B): Names Goya as “our greatest artist,” recommending we look up "Vuelo de brujas" and describing its supposed meaning: witches devouring a man, symbolizing evil and society’s passive spectatorship.
• [03:11] Traditional interpretation: Witches (evil, often depicted as women) are tormenting a man atop a mountain at night, while onlookers below cover themselves, refusing to see or hear the horror—interpreted as Goya’s critique of a society paralyzed by superstition and fear.
  • Quote: “Se ha interpretado siempre como una crítica de Goya a la sociedad que no quiere saber del mal y que se deja hacer por superstición.” [03:48]

3. A Shift in Interpretation: New Discoveries at the Prado

• [04:36-07:26] New scholarly interpretations have emerged since the painting entered the Museo del Prado in the 2000s, allowing for closer examination:
  • Faldillas and Mitres: Goya uses similar skirt-like clothing for male celestial figures elsewhere; the headdresses look less like Inquisition “capirote” and more like episcopal mitres—symbols of religious authority and “goodness.”
  • Serpents, Not Flames: What seemed like flames on the headdresses are actually serpents, alluding to knowledge (or Mason allegories), not necessarily evil.

4. Radical Reversal: Transmitting Knowledge, Not Stealing Life

• [09:40] New readings suggest the figures aren’t sucking blood, but blowing knowledge into the man—their swollen cheeks imply exhalation, not inhalation.
  • Quote: “No son brujas chupando la sangre, son sacerdotisas del más allá que nos han venido a insuflar la inteligencia de la ciencia para que los humanos aprendamos y nos desarrollemos.” [10:11]

5. Symbolism of the Mountain and the Resisters Below

• [10:22] The illuminated mountain peak is the classic art symbol of enlightenment; the ascent is difficult, dark, and winding.
• Those at the summit are recipients of wisdom, while figures below, covering eyes and ears, symbolize those clinging to ignorance and superstition.
  • Quote: “Los hombres que están abajo... simbolizan gente que ante el horror... se tapan, no quieren saber nada, no intentan solucionarlo, están ahí, no quieren ver, no quieren oír…” [03:04]
  • Quote: "¿Quieres ser esos patanes que están allá abajo que no quieren ver la verdad?" [11:54]

6. Goya’s Enduring Lesson: Bravery Against ‘Bulos’ and Ignorance

• [11:01] Goya’s message remains acutely relevant: Many people flee uncomfortable truths and opt for easy, digestible falsehoods or “bulos.”
  • Quote: “Goya nos está diciendo es difícil. Te crees al principio que la verdad son brujas que te devoran, pero en realidad te están dando el saber y tú tienes que elegir dónde quieres estar.” [11:42]
• [12:07] The symbolism of the burro (ignorance) and the averting humans is brought to the present: will we face difficult truths, or hide behind comforting lies?

7. The Series and Patron’s Perspective

• [12:20] "Vuelo de brujas" is part of a series of six paintings on witchcraft, bought by the Duchess of Osuna, an extraordinarily cultured, progressive woman.
• [14:11] The Duchess, despite her rational education, hung these paintings in her office as a reminder of the prevalence of ignorance and superstition in society, not because she believed in witches.
  • Quote: “Se cree que las tenía ahí para… esto no es lo que debemos creer, esto es lo que parece. Pero en realidad hay que estar atentos. La superstición nos lleva a la ignorancia.” [14:16]

8. "El Aquelarre" and Personal Tragedy

• [14:42] Another painting in the series, "El Aquelarre," links to personal tragedy (the loss of the Duchess’ four children), but is interpreted not as a memorial to superstition, but as a warning against the easy comfort of blaming “witches” rather than facing painful truths.
  • Quote: “El macho cabrío que hay en el centro es cualquier líder que te cuenta cualquier patraña para tenerte controlado y que creas lo que él quiere... Y es exactamente lo que pasa hoy.” [15:44]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [01:13] Pablo Ortiz: “Si te vas a rendir, echa un vistazo a este cuadro y te va a dar energía para seguir defendiendo la verdad.”
• [03:48] Ortiz: “Se ha interpretado siempre como una crítica de Goya a la sociedad que no quiere saber del mal y que se deja hacer por superstición.”
• [10:11] Ortiz: “No son brujas chupando la sangre, son sacerdotisas del más allá que nos han venido a insuflar la inteligencia de la ciencia para que los humanos aprendamos y nos desarrollemos.”
• [11:42] Ortiz: “La verdad, Goya nos está diciendo, es difícil. Te crees al principio que la verdad son brujas que te devoran, pero en realidad te están dando el saber y tú tienes que elegir dónde quieres estar.”
• [14:16] Ortiz: “La superstición nos lleva a la ignorancia.”
• [15:44] Ortiz: “El macho cabrío... es cualquier líder que te cuenta cualquier patraña para tenerte controlado y que creas lo que él quiere... Y es exactamente lo que pasa hoy.”

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:02: Introduction to the episode and framing Goya as a prophetic figure
• 00:56: Introduction of the painting "Vuelo de brujas" and description
• 03:11: Traditional interpretation as a critique of passive ignorance
• 04:36-07:27: The painting enters the Prado; new detailed analyses emerge
• 09:40: Reinterpretation: figures bestowing knowledge, not consuming lifeblood
• 11:01-11:42: Parallels with today’s society and ‘bulos’
• 12:32: The complete "witches" series and role of the Duchess of Osuna
• 14:42: "El Aquelarre" and reflections on loss, superstition and leadership

Conclusion

Through vibrant, witty, and culturally rich storytelling, Pablo Ortiz and Àngels Barceló show that Goya’s "Vuelo de brujas" is not just an indictment of 18th-century ignorance and superstition, but an urgent call for the present: to resist comforting falsehoods and embrace the often difficult, but essential, truth. The episode is both a lesson in art criticism and a passionate defense of critical thought—a must for anyone navigating the age of misinformation.