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Huberman Lab
Raising a Dog & Mastering Calm Assertive Energy | Cesar Millan
02:38:23
Cesar Millan is a world-renowned dog behavior expert.
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- [00:00]
Cesar Millan
I'm not saying that to give affection. I'm just saying give affection to patience and calmness and open mind. Right? Because when your dog misbehave, you want him to go back there. Go back to your good state of mind, right? You don't want the dog to do fight, flight, avoidance. Those are the bad state of mind. The good state of mind is patience. Can't surrender or happy. Go lucky. Those are good state of mind.
- [00:25]
Andrew Huberman
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast where we discuss science and science based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Cesar Millan, better known as the dog whisperer and the preeminent dog trainer in the world. Today's episode is truly for everyone, not just dog owners. You're going to learn a lot about human psychology and behavior and it will help you better interact with other humans in every type of relationship. For instance, you will learn a simple tool that allows you to move through the world with a clear, calm state of mind that will allow you to interact with others more effectively, to listen and act with more clarity and intention. And not incidentally, that clear, calm state of mind is also what dogs respond to best and what makes them feel safe and healthy. Today we talk about the critical importance about understanding dog biology and psychology and the fact that they are pack animals and that we have to remove our human sense about these animals as our pets. And of course, they are our pets and they're extremely cute, our family members, but understand the hardwired aspects of their brain and biology that allow us to be the best leaders for them. I have to warn you, a lot of what you hear today may sound counterintuitive at first until you understand the biology of dogs and the fact that they respond to people's energy and actions, not words. I know they can listen to commands, they can learn words and commands, but they're responding to the energy and the actions associated with those commands. Only then can you be the most effective dog owner. And by effective, I mean making your dog as healthy and feeling safe as possible. I should point out that one of the reasons I'm so excited Cesar came on this podcast is that I had an amazingly positive experience with his methods years ago when I got my first puppy, Costello, who was a bulldog mastiff. I read his book Be the Pack Leader, and the principles within that book were critical for developing an incredible relationship with Costello, who lived 11 years. You could bring him into Any environment, I would bring it to class, I would bring him into different people's homes. I could take him essentially anywhere. He loved kids, he loved people, and he was extremely well behaved. Exceedingly lazy too, but exceedingly well behaved. And I credit that to the methods that I learned from Caesar's book. So if you have a dog or you're considering getting a dog, or you want to better understand how to regulate your energy and behavior in all types of interactions with dogs, with cats, and with other humans, today's episode will teach you those extremely valuable tools. And I'm extremely pleased to announce the newest member of the Huberman Lab podcast team, Strummer. He's also a bulldog mastiff mutt. He's similar to Costello in breed, but I should say not a pure English bulldog. So not a lot of snoring. And the other stuff that go along with English bulldogs. I love the English bulldog breed, but when they're mudded with other breeds like this one, they breathe a lot easier. And he's just the sweetest thing. So you'll be seeing and perhaps hearing more from Strummer. I am applying all of Caesar's methods to training Strummer. You can see he's a very calm, relaxed dog, and he gets two walks a day and a bunch of other things you'll learn about during today's episode that will benefit you if you have or you're thinking about getting a dog. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Cesar Millan. Cesar Milan.
- [03:54]
Cesar Millan
Yes, sir.
- [03:55]
Andrew Huberman
Welcome. I'm a huge fan.
- [03:56]
Cesar Millan
Thank you. Same here.
- [03:58]
Andrew Huberman
Thank you.
- [03:59]
Cesar Millan
Thank you.
- [03:59]
Andrew Huberman
I'm honored to hear that. But I will say, your book, be the pack leader. I read the Hard Copy to raise my first puppy. We never had a dog in my home growing up to raise Costello.
- [04:10]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [04:11]
Andrew Huberman
Bulldog mix. Stubborn dog. We went 11 years together, he and I. And that book and your other teachings were tremendously impactful for my relationship with him.
- [04:22]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [04:23]
Andrew Huberman
But also in my work life, in my entire life. We're going to talk about some of the themes from that book and beyond today, but I just want to extend my gratitude.
- [04:31]
Cesar Millan
Thank you.
- [04:32]
Andrew Huberman
It's a true honor and pleasure to have you. Yeah. In modern parlance, they say you're the man. No, you're the man, the pack leader. That's right. Many, many people want. Dogs have. Dogs have these concepts of dogs that lead them to think they're a great dog owner. But a lot of dog behavioral issues, emotional issues, we know, probably reflects something in the human as well.
- [04:57]
Cesar Millan
Not probably so certainly, yeah, because there is no knowledge behind instinct is all reaction. So you can never blame an animal for doing the wrong thing. You said so. So you can guarantee for a dog to do the right thing, right? And so how. Well, that means the human has good energy. And what's good energy? Well, if you understand the power of silence, which that gives you, the power of calmness, which that gives you trust. And calmness is just learning how to breathe, right? The power of confidence, that's knowledge, right? And the power of love, when to give love. Because a lot of times people give love at the wrong time. So you end up nurturing the wrong behavior, right? So that's what happened to my clients. And then the power of joy, that's the celebration, right? We're going to FIFA right now, we're going to World Cup. Nobody celebrates unless they make a goal. You see what I'm saying? But they have to be patient, calm, confident, love what they're doing and celebrate afterward. See, they follow that formula them. It's the silence, it's the common before anybody's going to go to something so powerful, such as winning, right? Or being in a team or being in a group. The energies of silence, calmness, confidence, love, joy is what makes them become a great team because that's what connects your spirit, your instinct, your heart and your mind. And the same way we have to connect with a dog, it's not just emotional, it's not just intellectual, you know, when people just want to train the dog. What you train is the mind, what you connect is the spirit, the instinct and the heart. That's what you connect. And that's why I say trust, respect, love, trust the spirit, respect, instinct, low with the heart, create with your mind.
- [06:32]
Andrew Huberman
For many people, especially in the United States, they're not familiar with feeling energy and exchanging energy with a dog, right? I'll give an example of when Costello, my previous bulldog, some probably bulldog, mastiff, who knows what he was, whatever he was, was, he was Costello. But I learned something very important from you before. He's Costello, he's an animal.
- [06:58]
Cesar Millan
That's right. Spirit. Ah, spirit, animal, species, breed, name. See, so the last thing they are is the breed in the name. So when I rehabilitate a dog, what I'm Doing is bringing back the happy spirit, bringing back the healthy instinct and bringing back the rules. Bounders, limitations, mine, because that's what makes them well behaved when they understand rules by limitations, no matter what breed they are. So it really doesn't matter if you have a pit bull or rottweiler, German shepherd or I'm Mexican and you're white and African American. It really doesn't matter the race or the human. What matter is, is that person has a happy spirit, a healthy instinct and a well educated mind. Right. So you want to be a good human. Right. And you want to be part of the pack of the good humans. And those humans are good, right? Those are the humans that help other humans or they create well behaved dogs because they're following in that path. You know, there is some people who are born to. I mean, I'm part of the pack where it's better humans, better planet, but I know a lot of people who are not part of that path.
- [08:05]
Andrew Huberman
So it's that. Yeah, certainly. Raising and living with Costello taught me a lot about how to sense people's energy. I had an amazing experience with him that I just want to share briefly that I realized now is probably the spirit component, but it was something that I tried on the basis of what I read in your book. So I was walking him and sometimes he didn't want to walk in a particular direction, you know, and so he was always walk to my side or a little bit behind me. I had that going from very early point. I practiced no look, no touch, no speak in the first, you know, minutes of contact coming home. And we can talk about why that's important. But at one point I decided, based on what you put in your book, to try something that seemed kind of wacky to me at the time, where I was just gonna, at some point during the walk. It was a. We had a great stride, we're having a good time, he's smelling things, but we're moving on and. And I decided to just send him like approval energy. Like I'm just gonna think it and then I, and then feel it. I'm just gonna send him some energy. I'm just walking around, just doing this. I did not change where I was looking. I did not change as far as I know, like the tension on the leash, who knows? And he just looks right up at me and I was like, this is incredible. After a really good day of hiking or work, he used to come to the lab with me or something. We were sitting or I was cooking or something. Every once In a while, I would just. While I'm doing something else, I would just send him like, this positive energy. And he would look over at me. It was wild. And I realized he's sensing things that are beyond my words. In fact, I don't know that he ever really listened to what I said terribly much. He could really feel what I was feeling. He was probably paying attention a lot more of the time than I was aware. But I also had the experience of when he was doing something I didn't like. I could send him disapproval.
- [09:56]
Cesar Millan
That's right.
- [09:56]
Andrew Huberman
And he would stop. It was wild. We were, you know, meters away from each other, and I could send him this energy. Now, to you, this is probably like, yes, of course. But I think for me, and I think for most people that have dogs or thinking about owning a dog, think this is crazy, right?
- [10:13]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [10:13]
Andrew Huberman
But I swear on my life that I could do this in a variety of circumstances while driving anything, and he would react according to the. The energy that I was sending.
- [10:24]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [10:25]
Andrew Huberman
Out as a neuroscientist, I could make up some story. Okay, well, we have fish, have electric sensing. I can make up a story in neurology, neuroscience that would more or less hold together. But I want to know your impression of, like, what is this? And. And then hopefully that will take us into a discussion more about energy exchange between all sorts of beings.
- [10:43]
Cesar Millan
Well, you know, silence is very powerful, Right. The power of prayer, my mom certainly is always connected. When I crossed the border, I felt my mom, I jumped the border. And so jumping the border is a life and death thing, Right. So you give yourself to God. And then, of course, your mom is always thinking about you. So you feel this energy that is done by the prayer or by the silence. You are what you believe. And so if you believe you can connect and you communicate this way because you. You're going to be. I mean, the fact that people are not aware of energy, we can feel that that person doesn't feel good. And we're not. We don't even know each other, you know, so imagine if we humans are sensitive to that. All animals never stop this way of being. Right. The sensitivity of animals, they don't go into the mind. They stay within their instinct because that's how they stay safe, you know, and maintain the peace. And so what you did was exactly that. Don't talk, don't talk with words, talk with energy, body language and intention. You know, how do you become the best doctor in the world? Because that's all you think about it. That's all you think about it, you know, even when you go to sleep, even when you're not talking about it. That's. So you create the law of attraction. You create the law of creation. The most difficult law is the law of maintenance, right? Because it's easy to attract, it's easy to create. What's hard is to maintain, right? And that's why patience is so important, or silence is so important, because this one is infinite. It's an infinite energy. So if you feel that, imagine how powerful you become. And then just to be right here where you are claiming your space, calm, that gives you another power because that gives the animals the capability to trust. And then your intention, right? What is it that you want without words? I just don't want you to pee over there. I just don't want you to go after that dog. I just want you to stop doing what you're doing. Because think about when cats communicate with a dog. It's a completely different species. But can a cat control a dog the same way you did? Same silence, calm, confident. So that's, that's, that's why a cat can control a Rottweiler and a pit bull, right? When people feel, oh, it's a, it's a very dangerous breed at the moment you think something is dangerous, you, you give your power away, right at the moment, you bring silence, calmness, confidence, you regain your power back. And that's the first line of communication before sound. But most people focus on, I want to train my dog. I want my dog to listen to commands. No, no, no, no. You want your dog to listen to your silence, to your calmness, to what's in your mind without saying a word.
- [13:29]
Andrew Huberman
That's exactly it right there. That was the, the relationship with Costello improved in order of magnitude when I understood that, that I could talk to him all day or say whatever. It had a very little potency compared to how I would show up. And then it also taught me a lot, of course, about how to arrive home, how to walk into a. You know, I bring him to class. I taught, you know, 400 person class. He would walk in, it was very interesting. Everyone, you know, dog, dogs. Most professors wouldn't bring their dog to class. And he knew it was all there. Typical Costello. You know, he would just kind of walk to the front of the classroom, he'd wait a few minutes, not look at anybody, and then he would decide. He'd just like glare it all. He could light up a room. But I understood that. I wouldn't let him be like the. Too much of a celebrity or else he would start misbehaving. I had to remind him, like, you know, we have a structure and an
- [14:23]
Cesar Millan
order, and that's correct.
- [14:24]
Andrew Huberman
And I do think that people would benefit so much from getting in touch with this capacity that they have to sense their own energy and the energy of other people, regardless of if they have a dog.
- [14:35]
Cesar Millan
Well, you know, Americans go to India to be quiet, right? And then to, to practice not eating, which they call fasting, right? And then to stretch. That's practically. It is silence, you know, learn how to breathe and then stretch. Gives you a little bit, you know, agility into it and you learn to control hunger, which in a thorough country, that's what we learn, right? We learn to control hunger. We learn to be quiet, we learn to be calm. We learn, you know, whatever we know, we do really good at it. We become really good farmers, really good animal people, right? And family people, you know, God people. And. And so we have a good structure, good discipline and such a basic, simple stuff. And that's what gives us the, the upper hand of walk a dog off leash. When I started walking dogs in America, I didn't know it was illegal to walk dogs off leash. I was walking 40, 60 dogs at a time, right? And I was doing it off leash because that's all I knew. You see it? And so that, that, that energy of silence, calmness, confidence is what now I, now that I understand what I did is what led me to this event, you know, for people to see me from Englewood to South Central. It's a Mexican guy that walks a pack of dogs from England to. Through all fleece. That's when the LA Times came and, and did a piece of me, because they didn't, they couldn't understand, you know, this concept of walking a dog off
- [16:06]
Andrew Huberman
leash, this dog shaman or something, and
- [16:08]
Cesar Millan
a dog in the land of the free, right? Because, you know, dogs in America have rights, but that doesn't mean they can walk off leash. You see, the dog has to be on a leash. And humans have to learn to, to transmit that energy through the leash. Because there's a lot of dogs that react on the leash when the dog should be the most well behaved, then a dog is off the leash, you see. But the leash in the animal world is trust, respect, love. The leash in the animal world is that human understanding, you know, silence, calmness, confidence, love, joy. And that's pack leader, direction, protection, right? That's the only way you can say, I'm a pack leader, right? Because you are that energy.
- [16:48]
Andrew Huberman
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Element. Element is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need need and nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper hydration is critical for brain and body function. Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance. It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium and potassium are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells. Drinking Element makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes. My days tend to start really fast, meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise. So to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an element packet dissolved in it. I also drink element dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes. Element has a bunch of great tasting flavors. In fact, I love them all. I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor. So if you'd like to try Element, you can go to drinkelement.comhuberman to claim a free Element sample pack with any purchase. Again, that's DrinkElement.com Huberman to claim a free sample pack. Today's episode is also brought to us by joovv. Joovv makes medical grade Red light therapy devices. Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology and our health. Now, in addition to sunlight, which I've talked about a lot on this podcast, red light, near infrared and infrared light have been specifically shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health. These include faster muscle recovery, improved skin health, wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, improved mitochondrial function, and even improvements in vision. Nowadays, there are a lot of red light devices out there, but what sets joovlights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device is that they clinically proven wavelengths, meaning they use the specific wavelengths of red light, near infrared and infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations. Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times a week, usually for about 10 to 20 minutes per session. And I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel. If you would like to try Joovv, they're offering up to $400 off select products for listeners of this podcast. To learn more, visit Joovv spelled J-O-O-V-V.com Huberman. Again, that's J-O-O-V dash V dot com Huberman. I'm in a dilemma whether to go down the concepts of what is happening in third world countries, not just today, but always in terms of how people sense energy and use energy versus what we do here. But I think I'm also keen on the fact that many people listening don't know how to walk their dog. I'll ask a very simple question first. Should the dog always be next to you or behind you? Is there ever an instance where the dog should walk out in front of you? And as I say this, we both realize many people walk with their dog in front of them. So could you tell us about the concept of where the dog is relative to.
- [20:07]
Cesar Millan
But think about it, look at it this way, so people can adopt the concept quicker. Because if you learn how to walk a dog, it would eliminate 90% of the problems. The other 10% will be rules, bounds and limitations. Right? That's it. So when a dog is a pup, he follows his parents, right? And then he plays, then he explore. But the first activity he learns is to follow, follow, play, explore. So play and explore becomes like a reward activities. That's the Chuck E. Cheese time. Right? Right. And, and so the follow is the one they learn, you know, the rules, boundaries, limitations. They learn to stay focused and not get dist. So naturally, dogs, they need to learn to follow. When they go in front of you, they are in the mind of a player, explorer. But at the same time, if you do this every day, the dog learned that he has to lead you to places.
- [21:06]
Andrew Huberman
Is that stressful for the dog?
- [21:08]
Cesar Millan
If a dog is middle of the pack and back of the pack, yes. If a dog is front of the pack, no. You see it. And so very important in order for people to have a front of the pack dog, they need a lot of knowledge. And so most dogs are perfect middles or back. The back should be the easiest one. But when people don't do the right thing with the back, he becomes fearful. The middle of the pack should be the one for the families because they're naturally happy, go lucky. But if you do Too much excitement. They become hyper. You see it?
- [21:39]
Andrew Huberman
And this is across breeds. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn't matter if it's a bulldog or a, you know, and every litter
- [21:45]
Cesar Millan
is front of the pack, middle of the pack, back of the pack. But it's more back of the packs being born like followers. Then it's only one per liter. A litter of the pack. So that's what they call in the, in the breeder world, pick of the litter. See it? So in a litter of German shepherds, only one, it can be a police officers, the other one is pet quality, or they call them the run of the litter. Back of the pack, sensitive. Middle of the pack, happy go lucky is the hr of the fam of the pack in the middle of the pack. Right. And then the front of the pack is the one that gives direction, protection,
- [22:15]
Andrew Huberman
ideally for a family or for a typical domestic situation. I'm thinking United States, but elsewhere, because this is going everywhere and this, this episode will go everywhere. Middle or back of the middle pack? Middle.
- [22:27]
Cesar Millan
Yeah. A family who has never raised a dog together. Yeah, Middle.
- [22:30]
Andrew Huberman
How can you assess the litter when you see them so that you pick a middle of the pack dog? Yeah, if that's what's appropriate. Sounds like that's the, that's the goal.
- [22:38]
Cesar Millan
The front is going to be very easy to, to, to assess because he's gonna be the biggest one. He's gonna be the one that's moving the sisters and the brothers away from the mom. Right. He's already going to practice dominance. And then the middle is the second to get to the mother and the back of the pack, they always wait. You see, they're more shy naturally. They're just sensitive.
- [23:00]
Andrew Huberman
What if you don't have access to the interaction with the mother? Having gone to pick up puppies a few times, sometimes you just see the puppies, the mom's in another room. Should you ask to watch the interaction? And if you can't, how can you assess if you just look?
- [23:14]
Cesar Millan
Well, normally if you are in a situation, the breeder knows because that's what they put ribbons, you know, color ribbons. So they, so they know. Okay, this is middle. This is their back. Even though they don't call them that way, they just call them round of the litter, you know, pet quality of front of the pack. The front of the pack is just the obvious one. Right. And so when, just go inside, you know, where, where, where the puppies are and there's no mother and nothing. Just stay quiet. And every time you present something new, you're going to see the more confident coming to and the more happy. Go lucky coming to in the back of the pack. It doesn't get close anything new. It just can be a pillow. And that's the first time they experience a pillow. And the front of the pack will go and then in the middle of the pad will go and play.
- [23:55]
Andrew Huberman
It's hardwired.
- [23:57]
Cesar Millan
It's there. That's why you can guarantee good behavior. Right. Because now you. Okay, I want a middle of the pack border collie. I want a middle of the pack golden retriever. I want a middle of the pack pit bull. You can have it. You see, because that's going to guarantee to you exactly what you want. It's going to be easier for you to tell him what to do because he was born naturally a follower versus if you get a front of the pack, whatever breed, Chihuahua, I don't care what it is. They're born with the disposition of giving direction, protection. So wherever human wants to live with them needs to have more knowledge. Right. So that's me running a pack of dogs and having different animals. The animals know that I have a big energy. They don't know I have 43 acres. They just know I have a land
- [24:42]
Andrew Huberman
and that you're in charge of it.
- [24:43]
Cesar Millan
Yeah. And all the ups and downs that I went through and I have been. The wars that I go through. Right. The divorces and all of that stuff. And I went through and, and, and I, and I, I'm. I find my silence, my calmness, my confidence, my love, my job right back. They know my energy is big. Right. So, so that I can have a front of the pack. But I don't have one. I have middles and back.
- [25:07]
Andrew Huberman
Even you?
- [25:08]
Cesar Millan
Even me. Yeah. Because it will require so much. I will need to find him a job. You see what I'm saying? Like, like a border patrol, something like that. Looking for, for looking for the bad guys. Like that would be a job. It's just one officer and one dog. He doesn't need the pack.
- [25:25]
Andrew Huberman
Fascinating. I'm sure like many people listening, I'm trying to figure out was Costello front of the pack? I think he was. He's an enormous dog. I mean even within his litter. And when I went to go pick him up, I had met him as a three week old puppy. He was the one butting all the other ones out, eating from their food bowls.
- [25:46]
Cesar Millan
He was, they claimed.
- [25:47]
Andrew Huberman
Yeah. He didn't yelp, didn't yap at all. He just ate everything, took everything, peed where he wanted to. Did everything. So there was a. It was a difficult thing raising him. This new one, Strummer, who's four and a half months, he's definitely middle, maybe even back of the pack, but he second out. When he was born and they said, oh, you know, he's going to be the pick of the litter, they said it, but he definitely not. He would, you know, quickly. It was clear that he kind of kept a little bit distance. He is very sensitive.
- [26:14]
Cesar Millan
Okay, that's good.
- [26:16]
Andrew Huberman
Much sweeter.
- [26:17]
Cesar Millan
Yeah. Sensitive.
- [26:18]
Andrew Huberman
Yeah. Much more playful. And that's the part that I have to work with because they enchant us. You know, like I noticed with Strummer, he. He is figured out, you know, that if he gets into play mode, it lights me up. And then I have to remember to stay in my. In my place, my proper place.
- [26:34]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [26:34]
Andrew Huberman
Because I'm trying to teach him here. This is the order of things. It's very important because I want to be able to bring him anywhere, leave him in a room alone with little kids, and trust completely that he's not going to accidentally do something. For people that want to learn to sense their own energy, use their energy field, should they also be asking if they are front, middle, or back of pack?
- [26:54]
Cesar Millan
The human. Yeah.
- [26:55]
Andrew Huberman
Yeah. In the human world, this is something. It's a little bit of a sensitive topic, Right. Because every guy wants to say, yeah, I'm an Alpha, not a B. Everyone thinks that way. I like to think in different circumstances, people can move up or down the.
- [27:06]
Cesar Millan
The human hierarchy.
- [27:08]
Andrew Huberman
I mean, I work with a lot of scientists, and I can tell you in many environments that they don't come across as alphas, but you put them in a laboratory or a lecture environment, and I mean, they own their space because that's their expertise. So it can move around. But can you explain what it is to observe oneself, really think honestly about oneself, and where one really lies in this. Let's call it what it is. It's a. It's a hierarchy. But that makes it sound like one is better. It just is what it is. You're either front, middle, or back. A pack human.
- [27:39]
Cesar Millan
That's their special magic. Right. Being back of the pack means the master calm surrender. So we have to learn to master calm surrender. That's our more sensitive state of mind. Right. So when I'm assessing and evaluating a dog, I go into my calm surrender state. So I go in the back of the package, right. When it's time for me to give direction and protection, I go to the front of the pack. When I achieve whatever I need to achieve, I go into the middle of the pack. You see it. So the human can, can, can. Can take advantage of this position, of this. Of this state of mind. Right. The dog, the back of the pack dog is, Is gonna. Is gonna tell you, listen, I'm here to master calm surrender. It doesn't mean I don't do happy go lucky. But he can never do calm, confident back.
- [28:26]
Andrew Huberman
A pack can't do front.
- [28:28]
Cesar Millan
Never. Never.
- [28:28]
Andrew Huberman
And are we talking humans and dogs now? If we're really transparent.
- [28:33]
Cesar Millan
Well, it's just to have the fine line between what the human can do. Right. Versus what the dog can't. Right. So it's important to understand, you know, that a dog is born with a position. Right. And the human can go from whatever position he was born to different positions. Right. Because it's a lot of, like you say, it's a lot of scientist people who are. Who are very brilliant alien on this side, but when it comes to a dog, a dog takes over. Oh, yeah.
- [28:59]
Andrew Huberman
Or even just at a coffee shop, you know, they sort of. They. They become a smaller version of themselves. Not because they're weak. It's just. It's not their domain of expertise. And they feel weak in that environment.
- [29:08]
Cesar Millan
Correct. Or they turn on one energy more than the other one. And so a lot of these people turn on more. The affection energy. Right. And affection or love energy in the animal world is not a strong energy.
- [29:20]
Andrew Huberman
Yeah. Tell me more about that. Because I practiced on your recommendation. No look, no touch, no speak. When I got home, most difficult thing for people to do, I think. You know, they get home and the dog's, like, super happy. See them, tail is wagging, they're excited. And I. I'm like, I'm gonna ignore my dog. This feels like abuse. Right. You know, but I'd come in, do my thing. It's. And then after some period of time, I'm like, hey. And what I realized is every time after that, I'd come home and he was calm.
- [29:48]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [29:49]
Andrew Huberman
He was excited to see me, but he was calm. Never jumping up and touching me. Never jumping up and touching anyone else. But if someone came over and they were super excited, it almost would confuse him.
- [29:57]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [29:57]
Andrew Huberman
Like, this is not how people enter the space. Most people, I think, have a very hard time not greeting their dog with men and women squealing.
- [30:06]
Cesar Millan
That's right.
- [30:09]
Andrew Huberman
And it makes the dogs anxious. It causes problems in the relationship.
- [30:13]
Cesar Millan
Yeah, right, Absolutely.
- [30:15]
Andrew Huberman
But I think most people don't realize that.
- [30:16]
Cesar Millan
Well, that's exactly. You said it. You know, I, I don't want to ignore my dog dog and I don't want to like tell my dog that I don't love him, you know, because then the interpretation, the dog miss me. But you know, every time you leave an animal behind walls, the, the animal is going to go excited or anxious. Right. So not always what you're greeting is a happy dog. Most of the time what you greeting is an excited, anxious dog that is confused. Right. So it's very important. You know, when, when people sees dogs read another dog, there is no excitement, there is respect. And they wait until the front of the pack allows them to come in. They can't just come in into their intimate space. So it's a ritual. So it's three rituals that are very important for people to master with no touch, no talk, no eye contact. One is the meeting. Every time you meet a dog, always remind them about safe, peace, nose, eyes, ears, trust, respect first and then as they walk the dog right next to you, following you, quiet, and then when you feed. So those three activities are very meaningful to dogs, but all starts with the meeting, with the greeting. So every time you reunite, you have to remind your dog that you are source of safe and peace, of trust, respect, of nose, eyes, ears. You have to tell them that dissect
- [31:31]
Andrew Huberman
nose, eyes, ears for us because I think most people, because we're humans, especially in the US and you know, in northern Europe or wherever, like England, it's speaking. Yeah, There are people are just speaking constantly like, hi, hi. You know, this is not the best way for to communicate with a dog who you are and what you're about and what the, the trust relationship.
- [31:52]
Cesar Millan
Well, it creates excitement, right? It creates a dog to learn to greet people with excitement. So if you greet your dog with excitement, you are the source to other humans. So he's going to greet all the humans excited, he's going to jump on people. Not everybody wants a dog that doesn't belong to them to jump on them. So but because you know that, let's say you do that your dog has learned to welcome humans excited, you see it. So when a dog is born, he borns with the nose open. 15 days later they open the eyes. 21 days later, they open the ears. This is scientifically, this is in all the encyclopedias. So that means the dog met his parents through the nose, then the eyes, then the ears. You see? But when people wants to do ears, eyes, nose, they want to create a human. They want the dog to understand the Way you and I understand, hey, Andrew, how you doing? But we can control that excitement, right? At least we should. Some people can't. Right? But so it's a different ritual for us. You know, we believe in parties, we believe in parades. For a horse to go to New York is a very excited place. It takes conditioning, because no horse will ever volunteer going to New York. It has to be conditioned, right? Because you're bringing him to a very excited environment with his instincts, say, flight.
- [33:13]
Andrew Huberman
Recently there have been these problems. Sorry to cut you off. I don't know if you saw. A couple of the carriages in Central park took off. Someone was killed recently. There's a whole debate going on now whether or not this is good or bad for these horses. But it's just clear, regardless of where one sits on the debate, that you can't take the instinct out of the animal. There are triggers that will send them over an edge.
- [33:32]
Cesar Millan
Or you have to make sure that, you know, you keep eye on how is the spirit of the horse? Is the instinct of the horse healthy? You know, is the spirit happy? You know, because when they just go into the habit of working, working, working, working. Even a police dog can crash. You see what I mean? Even. Even a police can. Dog can bite a police officer because it's overworked.
- [33:54]
Andrew Huberman
I have a few friends from the special operations community. They work with these. These dogs that jump out of planes,
- [34:00]
Cesar Millan
parachute, do the Belgian Maloise. Yeah, yeah.
- [34:02]
Andrew Huberman
The Malinois. And several of those guys have told me that with those dogs, you cannot ever, ever let up your guard as the leader. In fact, a few guys who got a little soft with them, just a tiny bit. Like one anecdote was they decided to invite the dog in to watch a movie with them one night when they're on deployment, or maybe they were training, I don't know. And he let the dog get a little too close to him during the movie. The next day, he got bit. And it's like they're constantly trying to move up the hierarchy. He's like, it sucks because you fall in love with these animals, but you have to constantly keep the relationship in its proper place or they'll not turn on you, but they'll try and take your position.
- [34:43]
Cesar Millan
They don't try. That's the thing with animals. They don't try. They just do. Right? There is no knowledge behind instincts or reaction. So at the moment, your energy goes down bamboo. Amazing at the moment. So they're. They keep an eye on your energy, you know, and. But at the same time, you know, this kind of dogs are always in a high level of excitement. They keep them that way.
- [35:03]
Andrew Huberman
Yeah.
- [35:03]
Cesar Millan
They're vigilant, they're, they're keeping like, like that. They don't know how to turn it off.
- [35:08]
Andrew Huberman
So to create a great home, family, dog, or even if somebody lives alone, it's no look, no touch, no speak in the first couple of minutes of contact.
- [35:17]
Cesar Millan
Yeah. Until the dog becomes peaceful and calm and open mind. So surrender means the mind is open. Right. So once the mind opens up, you can teach whatever you want. Such as waiting, Such as being calm.
- [35:29]
Andrew Huberman
What if somebody has an anxious dog right now, they haven't been doing this, and the dog is pawing at them and running around. Should the person just stay completely in that calm space, moving about and ignoring them, touching them, or should they be physically giving, like, you know, get off me type thing?
- [35:45]
Cesar Millan
Well, this also had to do with how much exercise, physically exercise the dog has received. Right. How long is his walk? Because most people walk 20, 30 minutes. That's not enough. And the dog end up in the house for 20, 23 and a half hours.
- [35:59]
Andrew Huberman
In my opinion. It's borders on abuse. It's really incredibly hard on an animal.
- [36:05]
Cesar Millan
This is the same people say, I love my dog. And my first question is, how long do you walk them?
- [36:10]
Andrew Huberman
What is your recommendation? I realize it varies by breed and by age.
- [36:14]
Cesar Millan
Yeah. And by level of energy. Because some are couch potatoes, low level energy, some middle and some high. Right. And so it depends on the energy of the dog. So not because the dog is a back of the pack, doesn't mean they don't have high level energy. Okay. Because the sled dogs, there is a lot of guys that go in the back. It's only one in the front, if you notice. Right. And even in the back of the pack, dogs, because they create a pack from middle back. Right. And that's where they stay in that mode. And so even the back of the pack, they have to have the same level of stamina as the one in the front. So now because it's the back of the pack is couch potato. You, you know, so then, then you have to understand the levels of energy that they're born with. Low, medium, high. Yeah. So a lot of times people say, oh, bulldogs are couch potatoes. Now you can have a bulldog that is absolutely athletic, absolutely athletic and has that stamina to go. And, you know, obviously you have to help them with the breeding part. And because they, they just go into, you know, no limits. So you have to help them, you
- [37:12]
Andrew Huberman
know, Strummer has a lot of energy compared to Costello. So two minimum 30 minute walks per day, as much as a couple hours,
- [37:24]
Cesar Millan
twice a day with a backpack on. Right. Obviously the dog is a little older because, you know, the backpack adds that extra half hour because now the dog is carrying something.
- [37:32]
Andrew Huberman
So a weighted backpack.
- [37:33]
Cesar Millan
Yes.
- [37:34]
Andrew Huberman
And how should one assess, like percentage of body weight of the dog?
- [37:37]
Cesar Millan
Like at the beginning you can just put a backpack because they're psychologically, you know, they don't want to wear anything, you know, nothing that we put on them. They want to wear it. It, you know, a leash, a collar, a muzzle, a boots, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. So psychologically that drains them. Right, because they got to get used to it. So you, you walk until the dog comes, surrender to it and then you take it off. And then the mind will become very drained once the dog gets used to it. And then you start putting weight. You can start with £5. Remember, every time you add something, you challenge the mind. And the goal is simply for the mind to surrender. You see it and then the body, the body is going to become calm because it's wasting energy. So your job literally every day with a dog is to empty the tank. Empty the tank. Because a tired dog is never going to give you problems, ever.
- [38:23]
Andrew Huberman
True.
- [38:23]
Cesar Millan
Ever. How he doesn't have the energy to give you problems. And then on top of that you create rules, bounds, limitations, such as just put food right here, but you can't touch it. So the mind has to be disciplined not to touch it. Then the mind has to learn instead of doing this, to do this. And that requires self discipline. If you tell the dog, don't touch it, or don't touch the human, don't touch the food, don't touch the cat, they go into a calm surrender state and they wait.
- [38:50]
Andrew Huberman
Yeah. The first thing that I taught Strummer was to suppress action. Just as a general theme. He learned it right away at eight weeks. It took about a day, maybe even half a day because I had learned the hard way with Costello, he was much more stubborn. I could set food down as a 8 week old puppy because we went through the training process. He's not touching it until he looks at me. I can walk around the room, I can do whatever I want. He's tracking and then when I say, okay, then he's going to eat. I will just mention there's a inhibition from the forebrain down to the brain regions that control impulses. And this is what we call top down. Inhibition, which is nerd neuroscience speak for what you're describing practically. And I feel like it carries over to other circumstances more easily. But I can put food in front of him now and leave the room. I don't do this for extended periods, but I come back, he's not going to touch it.
- [39:47]
Cesar Millan
Yep.
- [39:47]
Andrew Huberman
And then he starts to eat. Now it's a little bit more difficult with things that, like trying to teach him to not be mouthy on like. So I have a rule. No, no skin in dog's mouth. This is just like it's all or none. Make it simple. Because when it's really cute when they're a puppy, this teeth are a little sharp and then you can kind of. But I just a thick black line.
- [40:08]
Cesar Millan
Right.
- [40:08]
Andrew Huberman
And my girlfriend knows this too. Like she's like, no, but he wants to play. It's like no skin goes in his mouth. Then he. Because that's a simple rule. Yep. And if he does happens to, you know, go for skin, I'll do the little Yelp thing. He understands right away. So if people hear this, they're going to be like, this is terrible. Right. You're putting food in front of him and he wants to eat and you're not letting him. But could you elaborate why this is so important to the dog's happiness and well being? Because I believe it is. And I could see that in Costello. I see it in Strummer. There's a trust, there's a calmness, there's an availability to go more places. But many people, they just like, he's hungry, she's hungry. They missed me. You know, they didn't know what they
- [40:51]
Cesar Millan
were doing or they feel guilty because they didn't walk the dog. Guilt plays a big role in raising dogs.
- [40:57]
Andrew Huberman
Well then let's stay on the walk for a moment. What is so critical about the structured walk? I've been doing two hours a day or so of structure since he was little and people say that's too much for a puppy. I feel like he's been great with two one hour walks.
- [41:12]
Cesar Millan
It's because they forget instincts. Right. They forget instinct that a dog is instinctually is going to follow his parents to find food and water. Right? Yes. They do it after two months of age because otherwise they will stay within the den. Right. But from, from 2 to 4, they follow him. You know, they follow and somebody's always taking care. You can see it in the African wild dogs. There is always somebody that supervises the litter, but they allow them to follow. Right. And then they they, they, they, they go to a certain stance because they're growing. But as soon as the dog gets into six, eight months of age, that guy wants to walk more than 30 minutes, guaranteed he doesn't want to stay in one place too long.
- [41:54]
Andrew Huberman
So all these people with their dogs home all day. Or some people will say, well the dog has the yard running around the yard. It's not the same, right? Being able to run around a yard
- [42:02]
Cesar Millan
with the yard, it becomes like the zoo, right? It's an animal in the zoo with a yard. But that's not natural, that's just practical for the human, right? And the human feels like, okay, I have a backyard. That's where the dog does exercise. But the dog is going in circles. So exercise for a bird is going for a fish. You know, a bird have to fly, a fish have to swim and a dog has to walk. It's just the nature of each other species, right? So the walk is the most important activity in my eyes, right? Look at the homeless people with their dogs, why they can walk a dog go flesh.
- [42:35]
Andrew Huberman
You were the first person I ever heard say that homeless people are the best dog owners.
- [42:39]
Cesar Millan
And the humans who are blind, the human who are blind, dog is right next to them. Homeless people, dog in the back, right? So what are they doing, right? Well, the dog is following them, right? They're in a follower state. And so the dog, the dog that lives with the blind is not allowed to get distracted. It because his purpose is to guide the blind. And the dog that lives with the homeless, he's not allowed to go in front. Consciously or unconsciously, the dog stays in the back. Nine out of 10 homeless people have a pitbull and the dog is well behaved off leash.
- [43:11]
Andrew Huberman
I see a lot of them in my neighborhood. This is Los Angeles. It's incredible.
- [43:15]
Cesar Millan
Incredible, right? But in Mexico, every single dog, in a thorough country, every single dog is off leash. So that's in America. The American dream for a lot of people is, is to have a dog walk off leash. Because people pay a trainer to train their dog to be off leash with. This is the nature of a dog, you see, it doesn't make any sense, you know, once you hear it, you just have to help them by practicing the ritual of no touch, no talk, no eye contact, let the dog be calm, surrender in front of you, make sure during the walk he's also in the same state of mind. And before you feed him, do this for at least three weeks, right? So you get into this habit, right, that when you greet, when you walk and when you feed. So then this dog is going to have this beautiful silence, calm surrender. And this is the dog you bring into dog parks or dog beaches. And then your job is to make sure that you, the dog that your dog is going to play with has the same energy as your dog. You have to be selective. Just like with kids, right?
- [44:13]
Andrew Huberman
I don't bring my dog to dog parks. I used to.
- [44:16]
Cesar Millan
You don't need to.
- [44:18]
Andrew Huberman
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- [46:59]
Cesar Millan
Affection, body, mind, heart.
- [47:00]
Andrew Huberman
And for many people, you know, they're going to hear that. I mean, it's reflexive for you now of course, this is your domain, but they're going to be like this. But they don't want to walk first thing in the morning. I want to cuddle with my dog first thing in the morning. I mean my household. Now I had to be really clear, like if we don't follow this, we're damaging the opportunities for Strummer. We're actually hurting his psychological well being.
- [47:26]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [47:26]
Andrew Huberman
And the only hard part with him is he doesn't necessarily like to wake up up early, but sometimes have to walk him early. So it takes a little bit of extra encouragement. The day always starts with a walk, then discipline, training and then food and then some affection.
- [47:44]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [47:44]
Andrew Huberman
But it's not hours of like cuddling on the couch or anything. It's like a, you know, I mean, I love him. I would love to pick him up and, and treat him like a little baby.
- [47:52]
Cesar Millan
Right.
- [47:52]
Andrew Huberman
Much more often than I do.
- [47:54]
Cesar Millan
Right.
- [47:55]
Andrew Huberman
But I just see the incredible results that come from this exercise, discipline and
- [48:00]
Cesar Millan
then affection, which is living a natural life as love. Because you're right, we want them to live as natural as possible. And, and, and so that's love in my eyes. Like exercise discipline. Discipline is not punishment because that's a word. And in the animal, the dog people, when they hear the word discipline on the dog, they put as punishment.
- [48:20]
Andrew Huberman
Yeah. They're thinking of a teacher hitting them. Yeah.
- [48:22]
Cesar Millan
Like you're punishing the dog and. No, you're just making sure the dog follows the Rules, brand, limitations. The dog follows a structure, you know, and that's what we call discipline. Right. And that's how we achieve becoming well behaved or achieving success because we have to be disciplined. Right. And so a lot of times what I end up helping people is understanding the word. So the blog doesn't block the word, doesn't block them from doing the right thing. Right. Which is your job as a pet parent. Because now the title pet parent, right. Is direction, preparation, protection than love. Yeah. But most dog people want to do affection, affection, affection. And when it should be. Exercise is an affection, body, my heart.
- [49:07]
Andrew Huberman
I think the. The walking part is so key, obviously, and I'll just say it, you tell me if you agree or disagree, if you want. But I think most people are just lazy. They don't want to walk. And if they walk, they don't want to do it without talking on their phone or looking at their phone. And the dog can sense if your energy is on the walk or the energy is someplace else.
- [49:26]
Cesar Millan
Oh, you connect, disconnected. Or you're in a flexi leash with a harness on and you're in the phone, which. Those are the worst. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. So it's the moment where you are connected to Mother Nature and through the dog. Right. And people now, you know, they see God is dog backwards. All right? So you're connected to spirit and you're connected to earth, but you can be connected to technology. And the phone is the same thing is the phone is for connection, communication, relationship. So does the dog connection, communication, relationship to God, to earth, to you. And so then you create that triangle, and then the dog is inside that bubble, you know, oh, this human is really respecting God. This human is really respecting Earth. This human is really respecting the moment. So you create this vibe, right? And the dog is in a follower state, so he's going to imitate the energy that you're in. Right. And so what is prayer? An imitation of everybody doing the same energy.
- [50:24]
Andrew Huberman
I find it so fascinating that your relationship to dogs has opened up this understanding of human behavior, but not just how we behave, but how we relate to the entire world. Like the energetics, as keeps coming up in our discussion, I feel I have other practical questions, but I want to touch on something that you mentioned before we started recording, which is that in a third world country. Yeah. People are aware of death very early on. And so the connection to the spiritual comes first, and all the rest follows the complete inversion of somebody like me who was born in Northern California. It's like Silicon Valley. And Call it that then. And you learn everything through the, the logical structures and you know, science and science and my dad's a scientist and, but, and even if one loves poetry and music and things like that, which I do, the order is through the sort of like bricks on the ground first and, but there's no concept of death actually until your grandparent dies or an animal dies or something. Tell me about this relationship to death and how it structures the, the psyche and the energy of people in third world countries. Because it, it's a direct outgrowth of everything we're talking about. Because I think it's going to be extremely useful to people in, regardless of where they live in the world.
- [51:42]
Cesar Millan
I think that's the first step. Step, you know, to learn not to be afraid of death. Right, that's the first step because that's in, in America they don't want nothing to die, but it's, it's just what it is, right? Bird life and death. So it's just, that's when in the Mexican culture we have the el dia los muertos, the day of the death. So we learn to, to be okay with it. We learn to accept it. Because you know, in Mexico or a tor country, death is everywhere. You can see it everywhere. You know, I'm from the north of Mexico, Sinaloa, and you see people with the chop heads and hang up and you know, you go to school and people are dead. So what do you end up doing in that, in this moment? Well, you end up believing that God will protect you. That's your spirituality. Right. And just like what, I don't want a person to break into my house. You get a dog, right. And so that the mother nature to protect you. So for us, when we grew up that way, seeing death everywhere, we learn to surrender to this higher power. Right? And we are what you believe, you know, so it's really good, you know, in our experience to be able to surrender to death, but at the same time we also surrender that somebody's going to give us direction, protection, love, the same thing. He's the pack leader. Right. And we just surrender to that. Yeah, right. And as well, we surrender to earth. Giving us food and taking care of earth because it's a, it's a, it's a combination of spirituality and instincts in a third world country.
- [53:13]
Andrew Huberman
So it's almost like people in third world countries place, so they see the reality of death early and they place themselves in a sort of hierarchy. They look upward oftentimes, not always, but oftentimes these Are religious people, right?
- [53:29]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [53:30]
Andrew Huberman
My father's from Argentina and is a Catholic country and is a Latinos.
- [53:35]
Cesar Millan
For. For by design. We. We are taught to spirit first and then second is mother Nature. Right? Yeah, it's number. You know, now that's the. It's like an order. And then you have to go to work. Right. So job is number three. And then you have to love the family. And then love is at the. At the end.
- [53:56]
Andrew Huberman
Right.
- [53:56]
Cesar Millan
But it's God first, earth second, which. And then this family or work.
- [54:01]
Andrew Huberman
Well, here in the United States, it's. We're raised very differently.
- [54:05]
Cesar Millan
Yeah. First.
- [54:06]
Andrew Huberman
And it's also this idea that stuff is the portal to happiness.
- [54:12]
Cesar Millan
That's right.
- [54:12]
Andrew Huberman
Having lay's phone, having access to all the apps, a lot of shoes, shoes, bags.
- [54:17]
Cesar Millan
I grew up with one pair of shoes, you know, one pair of shoes. And so we grew up with very nothing. But then, so what. How do we stay happy? Happy, right. How do we stay happy? So it becomes like a belief system. Right? And so that belief system, it has helped a lot of people that I know that are. To stay happy. It's just a happy people with nothing, which is the key, right. You first have to be. Learn to be happy, healthy, loving, smart with nothing. Then when you have something and then you're already happy, healthy, loving, smart, it just adds into your accomplishments. But animals don't understand money, fame, power. Animals understand natural, simple, profound. So that's the part that I grew up in.
- [55:00]
Andrew Huberman
Natural, simple, profound.
- [55:02]
Cesar Millan
Natural is your instinct. Simple as to love. Profound as your spirit. Natural, simple, profound. So even if you're not smart. Right. You can still be natural, simple, profound, and have an amazing relationship with animals. Incredible, right? Even if you're not. You don't know how to read. You don't know how to. Right. You don't know where Europe is. But you can still have an amazing relationship with God and with Mother Nature and with your family. Right. And therefore, if you're good to those three, you're good to you.
- [55:30]
Andrew Huberman
I used to joke because I'd bring Costello to my lab with me, a lab of about 15 people. I'd walk in with him and. And he'd go around and he like walk into the lab. He'd see all the students and people working. He used to bring his toy around to each of them, sitting at their desk to try and get them to play. You know, he was part of the lab. And people really, I like to think they loved him. They told me anyway that. But I used to look at him sometimes. I Think he doesn't care that I'm the professor. He doesn't care. That's the best part about this relationship. He doesn't care. He doesn't care. Even if we go home at night. Sometimes I would sleep in the lab back then. He doesn't care. He just wants us to be together. He wants his walks. He likes to be on things. And I just realized he just kind of wants to be around the joy of family, a laboratory. He just wants to be part of this. And it really helped me to just remove the.
- [56:20]
Cesar Millan
The.
- [56:20]
Andrew Huberman
The concept that he even knew what roles were or jobs were. It was just this place we went. I think dogs are a wonderful way to look at the world differently and realize both how different we are as a species, but also all these things that we've created. Like, these are just human creations.
- [56:36]
Cesar Millan
Y.
- [56:36]
Andrew Huberman
And they're important. Jobs are important, obviously, but. But to not project that onto him, but also is very useful to not project that onto people in the world. I'm not going to point at any specific colleagues, but I knew people who are very. Who are very prominent in their field, and the way they go into the world was almost like disappointed because people weren't feeding them the adoration that they felt they deserved. But no one cares, right? Because they're in their own experience. And I just mentioned this because in your book and these teachings that we've been talking about today, they. They taught me a lot about the human energetics. We're not dogs, so we can't just transfer that in. But it taught me that most of the time, when we think we're operating from a place of knowledge and roles and all this stuff, there's something that's been constructed by humans, like a uniform to show this person's in charge. They have all the stuff that reveals their accomplishments, the degrees on the wall. Take that stuff away, and it's a very different kind of interaction. Like, who's this person? Like, what are they about? Like, what moves them forward or back? Are they a good person or a bad person? Are they scared? I think it's very helpful if people learn to tap into this a little bit.
- [57:52]
Cesar Millan
You know, when I go to people's home, the human tells you the story and the dog tells you the truth. Just by you looking at it, that's it. The dog immediately tells. This is the energy we feel, this is the philosophy we practice, and this is the actions we do do immediately. The dog always. He's the most honest member of your house. They don't know how to lie, See it. They don't know, they don't know how to, to. To do what we humans do. They don't, just don't. Right? So it's. I listen to the human because I, I need to understand, okay, where is this human stuck, right? And then through that conversation I go, okay, what about it? If we think of, think of spirit, think about silence. Do you like silence? Okay, silence is part of the spiritual world. And what about calmness? Calmness? I think I'm calm. Okay, let's breathe. And then I change the instinctual world just by just breathing, right? And then I start giving the information. So the intellectual world is more simple. It's more clear with the nose, eyes, ears, rules by limitations. I'm just giving this simple information, right? So your mind knows how to execute, right? And then when do I love? Hold on, just, just wait, wait. And. And then when the dog goes, now that's when you love. Because I want to teach people to love silence, to love calmness, to love an open mind. Because people have learned to love an excited dog, an anxious dog, a dog that, that was a victim, right? So if you rescue a dog and then the dog was in a bad situation, that person goes and rescue dog because he feels bad, bad. And then that same person start telling everybody in the family what happened to that dog. So now the whole entire family feels bad for the dog. So when they describe the dog, they describe the past. So they learn to love the past because they feel sorry for this dog. So the dog now is fearful, controlling the house, you know, has. It doesn't listen to the humans. At the moment I grab the same dog and I bring him to the ranch and I give him silence, calmness, and be part of the pack that dogs change. They live in the moment. So really, what happened to the past to a dog a month ago, a year ago, is irrelevant. It's irrelevant. What's relevant is how do you treat him now, right? And the only thing they need to, to become good is, is safe, peace, environment, trust, respect. Human with exercise, discipline or. Or exercise mental stimulation activities. Then the love comes at the end. Safe, peace, love, trust, respect, love, exercise, discipline, affection, action. See, love is number three. It's a reward, right? It's a reward. How do you stay happy? Well, and then you are grateful. How do you stay healthy? You learn how to breathe and do exercise. How do you stay smart? Well, you learn, you achieve and you give it away. Or you learn to turn your mind off. And then. So when do I practice love? Well, Practice love. Once you master your spirit, your instinct and your mind, then love that thing about you, right? Love, love, love. Those three things about you. You, your silence, your fate, your calmness, your trust to you and then your confidence, your mind. Love that.
- [60:56]
Andrew Huberman
Can dogs smell stress?
- [60:58]
Cesar Millan
Yeah, feel stress. It smells. But remember, it's the feeling of the energy that you have inside your electricity, right? You're not functioning normal. Then that same energy is going to create a chemistry, right? Then you're going to sweat and I mean is just going to go into the nose, eyes, ears, but versus without the nose, eyes, ears. Just the animal in them is going to sense when an earthquake is about to come. They sense it way before it trembles. You see it. So that energy of mother nature shifting at such a low level of sensitivity, then we see, then we hear things.
- [61:36]
Andrew Huberman
Humans are so obsessed with dog intelligence. That looks like our intelligence. If I see another video of, of like how many words a dog can learn or you know, dogs doing tricks or walking on their hind legs, none of that impresses me. I also like cephalopods, octopuses, I have a couple of them actually and I'm fascinated by them. And people think they're extremely intelligent and they maybe, but I'm interested in their intelligence. You can find a video of a guy who taught an octopus to play a piano, but if you look at the training process, it was just shaping right. Reward this and reward that. That video I'll go on record saying, totally unimpressive. To me it tells you far more about the trainer's willingness to painstakingly shape an animal than it does about octopuses at all. I mean I'm not saying an ant or a plant could have learned to play the piano, but what he did could be done with a horse if it just had big keys. So there's nothing interesting about this. But humans, we seem obsessed with trans our, let's keep it to first world because that seems aligned here, our first world understanding of what intelligence and knowledge is and skill is and putting that onto other species and it's crazy. It's crazy. It doesn't reveal anything except our own short sightedness and stubbornness about being unwilling to think about these other ways of communication and moving through the world.
- [63:04]
Cesar Millan
Well, it's the self oriented first versus pack oriented. What is what the pack needs versus what is what you want? Want, Right. So that, that is more like where when the human just wants a baby, for example, and they get a dog humanizing a dog, is it good for the dog? No. Right. It's not good. It's good for the human, you know, it's good for the human fantasy and fulfillment, emotional fulfillment or whatever thing they have in their mind. But is it good for the dog to be a human? Why would he wants to be a human? Why they're not trying to do the same thing with a cat? Because what they say is, is a cat. So you can't humanize a cat. You see what I'm saying? So the cat sends the human hell, right?
- [63:47]
Andrew Huberman
Yeah.
- [63:48]
Cesar Millan
Because the cat only comes whenever he wants to come. So you can't influence anybody who doesn't want to be with you. Right. The dog. You have to teach him to live without you. Right. He has to learn to keep you distant because he's a pack oriented. So you can influence a dog much quicker than you influence a cat.
- [64:06]
Andrew Huberman
Cat.
- [64:06]
Cesar Millan
Right. You can't influence anybody who doesn't want to follow you.
- [64:09]
Andrew Huberman
How do you feel about cats?
- [64:10]
Cesar Millan
I love cats. I love all animals. You know, I was going to invite you to the ranch because we have all the species and we can assess and evaluate your dog better. Right. With the chickens and the dogs and the different species. So, so we can see the prey drive, you know, and you can, you, you, you, you, you, you are going to be able to see do you have a dog with prey drive and how do we block it? Right. Or you have a dog with play drive and you just leave it open. Open. Yeah.
- [64:33]
Andrew Huberman
Oh, I'd love to bring Strummer out there.
- [64:35]
Cesar Millan
It's a good place. Because your dog gets to interact not just with dogs but with other species that trigger that prey drive. Very, very important because what makes your dog social is that he learns to accept others. See, I don't want a dog that has a, a protective drive or I, I'm not interested in that. Right. I just want a dog that accepts everybody. Yeah. And that's a dog that is going to give you zero lawsuits, zero liability. Right. Because he accepts everybody.
- [65:03]
Andrew Huberman
Oh yeah. I know people in California in particular whose dogs charged other people lawsuits like it even if they didn't bite. It's, that's a whole thing.
- [65:12]
Cesar Millan
And it could be a lot of absolute. It could be a dog that was not meant for protection but because it doesn't have rules, boundaries and limitations. He doesn't walk. And you know, every day the dog is bored, confused or frustrated and then he releases that because he's a predator. Dog by nature is a predator. They're going to move forward to release his energy. You see it. So. But you want them to move forward with the right state of mind. Right. Or when you tell the dog to move forward, Right. That's, that's just discipline. But people don't, don't have that kind of understanding. And the dog end up doing whatever they want. So the dog end up, you know, putting people in a lawsuit, which another, another place where the dog doesn't know. You get in zoo about it, you know, so he's not gonna, oh, my God, we're gonna lose money. You know, Doug is not gonna understand that concept.
- [66:00]
Andrew Huberman
As humans, we, we project so much onto other species, other people. And in the backdrop of everything we're talking about, I'm hoping that people are seeing the ways in which they can show up into circumstances with more calmness, especially if it's not reflexive. You know, before every episode, I pray way I do. I. I ask for certain things, I try to open up certain things so that I realize not all of this is under our control. That's my belief. And to try and invite certain things in. So it's not reflexive. I do it as a. You call it a discipline, I'm happy to do it. But I think people assume that you're either calm or you're an anxious person. People assume that their dog is either calm or anxious. This is a terrible misconception. I think we can become calmer regardless of where we are in our natural levels of anxiety.
- [66:53]
Cesar Millan
Animals do not will never choose anxiety or live an anxious life. We're the only species that follow unstable leaders, right? So to be the pack leader in the animal world, you have to be the most patient, the most calm, the most confident, the most loving, the more joyful. Everything has to be at 100%. Then you can be a pack leader, right? And your job is to resolve problems, right? That's practically it. So the least thing you can do is to bring problems. Anxiety, fear, insecurities, all of that stuff is something that you bring back home. You don't want that.
- [67:27]
Andrew Huberman
So before people hit the door coming home, they should do a check in
- [67:31]
Cesar Millan
with a little prayer too. God, just let me be silent, calm, confident, love and joy to my dog.
- [67:39]
Andrew Huberman
That's it.
- [67:40]
Cesar Millan
I want to practice no touch, no talk, no eye contact, and just help my dog to calm down. And then I'm going to give him affection. I'm not saying not to give affection. I'm just saying give affection to patience and calmness and open mind. Right? Because when your dog misbehave, you want him to go back there. Go back to your good State of mind. Right. You don't want the dog to do fight, flight avoidance. Those are the bad state of mind. The good state of mind is patience, come surrender or happy, go lucky. Those are good state of mind.
- [68:10]
Andrew Huberman
I think here I'm projecting a lot and assuming a lot. But I think a lot of people, deep down, I think they probably like that their dog is so quote, unquote, happy to see them at the end of the day, excited, excite. Because I think many people feel devoid of real love and connection. And the idea that they're fur baby, I really don't like this term. They're not babies. Yes, they have fur. But like, like, I think out of respect for animals, we have to remember that they're animals first. I, when I heard, first heard you say, like, they're, you know, they're spirit animal, you know, species. Species and then breed. And then the name, the name, it was so helpful for me because I don't want to get into it here because it's not directly relevant, but in science, I've worked with humans, worked with animals, and, you know, I stopped working with animals because it was really hard on my soul.
- [68:59]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [69:00]
Andrew Huberman
I understand biomedical research. I understand when there's a whole other discussion, but even just the way that people would start to talk about animals, like, we work on them, not with them. And this is a complicated issue we could get into sometime. But I started to realize, like, we start using words to either dehumanize or humanize animals, and both are terrible. So when I heard you give this description of, you know, spirit animal, et cetera, I was like, he's saying, don't humanize these animals because it makes them feel unsafe. Yeah. And all confused or confused. Yeah. And years later, I realized again, with all due respect to biomedical research and the need to make discoveries, I do think there's too much animal research that's unnecessary. These kinds of things. Some is essential, but et cetera. But I realized there, we're dehumanizing animals. And I thought, oh, my goodness, goodness. Because I had this incredible contradiction in my mind. It was a real soul dilemma. Like, I love Costello. It was like he was a family member. And I was willing to do all this work on myself and with him, but in my profession, I was observing things where I thought, this is not okay. And I stopped. I'm going to work with humans. Even saying I work on humans, you hear scientists say, this is terrible. Terrible. And I think words matter to humans and because they shape how we behave.
- [70:26]
Cesar Millan
Correct.
- [70:26]
Andrew Huberman
And so I'm noticing a theme throughout today where you have words and simple ways for people to remember. No look, no touch, no speak. Right. Exercise, discipline, then affection, et cetera. That's telling people, people stuff in people language. But the level that you're really interested in and you're trying to convey is the animal experience and then the spiritual experience sense. I'm not trying to psychoanalyze you here, but this is the structure that I hear emerging, I think will be very useful to people because we're going high level, low level all the time. So if people could start to think about themselves in this way and think about their animals, why not? I think a lot of people are going to say, oh, no, I come home and I want to be loved by my fur babies. And I want them to. And I miss you and I want to do FaceTime with you. And like, you know, And I think people genuinely, however, want their animal to feel safe. They want their animal to feel secure, number one. And when I think about real love, it's about safety and security first. So for someone that has, like the other day I was in the hospital visiting a friend, and the woman behind the counter, we were talking, she said. She said, I have two Frenchies. I said, well, you work long shifts. She goes, yeah, they're home alone. I come home and they're pooping and peeing. I feel so guilty.
- [71:48]
Cesar Millan
That's right.
- [71:48]
Andrew Huberman
And my first thought was, you should know those dogs. But she's in love with the dog, right? I thought, well, okay. So I passed along a little bit of what I learned. She said, and she just said flat out, I can't do it. I can't do it. There's no way I could come home and they're going crazy and I'm and excited to see me that I couldn't just pick them up and just hold them. But it's making them anxious.
- [72:08]
Cesar Millan
She's nurturing.
- [72:09]
Andrew Huberman
Yeah.
- [72:10]
Cesar Millan
The same nerds that is helping humans to be healthy, she's helping her dogs to be unhealthy healthy. It's so contrary. That's exactly what you were going through, you know, working with humans versus working on humans. Right. So she's helping other species. Right. But the species that she's in love with, she is not. But that's because the story she is is accepting in her head. She's agreeing with that. Right. I have so much guilt that I can't stop it. Right. Because that's what she's trying to do to number her guilt.
- [72:41]
Andrew Huberman
Well, when I was growing up Most people didn't have dogs. In our neighborhood, suburban neighborhood, there were a few dogs. Now everyone's got a dog. It's like having a phone. Everyone's got a dog. This doesn't seem like a good thing.
- [72:56]
Cesar Millan
It is a great thing for me because I love to teach people about energy, philosophy and actions. I want people to have a trials, respect, love, the most incredible relationship with a dog. Cause a dog really makes you a good human if you do things right. Right. And then once you practice that, you can just give it to other humans because it makes it tangible. Is energy really work? Yeah. What about if I have a good philosophy that that really works? Yeah, it works. What about if my actions are good? That really works? Yes. Now you combine the three and watch what your dog does. Right. And then you go and do the same thing with other humans, right? So you create this beautiful trust, respect, love with humans, or connection, communication, relationship. You go and create safe peace and love, environment. Horse people are really good about safety. Right. So the priority in the horse world is not love. The priority is safe. So a horse person is going to teach a child, don't scream, no touch, no talk, no eye contact. Right. So the kid will learn that with a horse you have to be quiet, calm and wait until the horse give you the signal. And the same person will go and teach the kid with dogs, ask if you can pet him. Right. But because in the horse world, safety is number one. How do you keep a horse calm? And you wait. And then the horse come. What is what? How do they walk a horse? The wall. The horse is right next to the human, never in front, right. So people can. People. You can see a little kid walking a horse. You see it? And the horse is behind the kid, not in front of the kid it. But first is the meeting. And then the third thing is feeding the horse. If the horse is too excited, don't put the hay yet. Wait until the horse comes down, then the hay goes down. The meeting, the walk and the feeding, incredible.
- [74:45]
Andrew Huberman
And they're big. So we have this natural respect for them that people don't necessarily have for a dog, but a dog obviously can bite, you know.
- [74:52]
Cesar Millan
But why not have that respect for someone that we say, you know, man, dog is man, best friend. Yeah, the dog has the best titles of all the animals and on earth. Right, the dog. But when it comes to the actions, we don't honor the dog because we want the dog to be a human. We don't respect the dog because we want the dog to be a human. When you honor and respect somebody, you honor who they are, you respect who they are, you learn about how they are. And that's what you love. See it? You love who they are. You don't love what you think, you love who they are. Fire.
- [75:27]
Andrew Huberman
And you don't try and project that there's somebody else. I think some people making assumptions here, but some people will hear some of what we're talking about today and they'll say, oh, well, that's how I should become the pack leader with people. I should never let anyone walk through a door before me or something like. But the point you're trying to make is that human to human is different than animal to human. You don't just transfer the same thing. Some things transfer, but other things, things don't. Yeah, I've worked with non human primates before.
- [75:57]
Cesar Millan
Okay.
- [75:58]
Andrew Huberman
It's interesting. A lot of people will go to the zoo. I'm not a big fan of, you know, putting large carnivores in primates in zoos. I'm not. I want to be clear. I don't, you know, I have issues with that. But people will smile at the monkey or they'll go like, you know, for a macaque monkey, bearing teeth is aggression. So a friend of mine, she's an animal behaviorist and she said, oh, no, if you want to do an affiliative behavior with a monkey, you lip Smith Mac. Which sounds kind of cute and funny. And people go, oh, but you could tell somebody that a hundred times and they'll still go like. It's like we want to project our own understanding of what we think is going on. And even in the presence of knowledge, your dog is going to feel more safe and secure and happy if you come in. No look, no touch, no speak. There's something about the human brain where we just want to project. No, but I want my experience. And it's an incredibly selfish, selfish thing. It was really the realization for me, it's very selfish of me to come home and want a certain kind of interaction with my pet Costello. But to put the interaction in the terms that work for me. And I said, you know, this is the first time I owned a dog. Everyone in my life for the longest time, they're like, you're never. I was talking about it since I was a kid. You're never going to get a dog. I waited until I had the finances, until I had a home. Home. I waited. I'm very proud of the fact that I waited. I desperately wanted an animal for so long. Since I was a little kid at fish and things like that. But I wanted a dog. I knew at the time when I got him that it was the right time.
- [77:33]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [77:34]
Andrew Huberman
But I had to be very careful because I wanted it to go so well that I found myself projecting. What if he doesn't attach? And there was all this stuff. And then I read your book and I realized if I want this to go really well, well, I have to get out of my understanding of what I need on my terms and start thinking about what he needs and I need in his language. And it was like this light bulb went off. I'm just, you know, this is really a statement of gratitude that hopefully will be informative for people because we, the human brain just is like, no, I want to be loved. And so I'm going to do this thing that's actually harming the thing that I, I say is my fur baby. Yeah. Like no one would ever hurt their fur babies, but they, they're, they're doing it.
- [78:16]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [78:16]
Andrew Huberman
By projecting human stuff. Anyway, I'm telling you what you already know, but I think it's just something I really want to underscore because people hear affection last. Like this is just a, you know, guys being like, I'm alpha. No, it's the complete opposite of it. It's about respecting the animal.
- [78:33]
Cesar Millan
Yeah, it's, it's about safe peace, trust, respect. Once you have those two pillars, then you bring the love. Because that's what you want to love. You want to love the trust and respect. Not because you love people, you trust, respect them. Not because you love people, you respect them. So love is his own energy, his own identity. But you want to love, trust, you want to love, respect. That's what you want to love. You want to love a place that you feel safe. And peace. That's what you want to love. That's the land part, right? And then the relation, trust, respect. Then the way you experience the world. Body, mind, heart. Right. So at least those three things just do it that way. Just put love at the end. It won't hurt you. It will only make you wiser. Right. It will only make you more patient, more calm and, and you will see the outcome. The reason why I say no touch, no talk, no eye contact is because if you want to touch a back of the pack dog, he's going to run away. If you give eye contact to a front of the pack dog is exactly what the monkeys is. It means, it means fight when you're looking at somebody. I want to touch him. Right. And then when you talk to a middle of the pack, you're going to get him very excited. So if you practice no touching, no talk, no eye contact to any position of the pack, what you're going to allow is no I seers to come to you. You see it. So you're going to create the law of attraction. The dog is going to come to your smell and then he's going to assess and evaluate. Can I trust? Can I respect? Do I feel safe? Are you a peaceful human? That's what you want them to know about you, that you can be trusted, that you can be respected, that you feel that you can be a safe source, a peaceful source. Then once the dog, okay, yeah, you have that, then the dog is going to sit right next to you. It's going to do this, this or he's just going to relax. As soon as he gives you that, that's when you give love. So it's nothing wrong if you wait a little bit, right? There's nothing wrong. You just, you just following the steps. You are the one who's being disciplined. You see it, to be a good leader, you have to be a good follower. So you have to understand the power of calm surrender. You have to understand the power of patience. If you don't understand that, you're going to be a terrible leader. So I'm not telling people be a pack leader just because you're the dog owner. No, no, no. I'm telling you what it requires to be a pack leader. The highest level of patience, the highest level of calmness, highest level of confidence. And then knowing when to give love and know when to celebrate love. Joy is a celebration energy. This one is direction, protection. What do we want for of our pack leaders like politicians? We want to have an America that feels safe people peace. We want to have a Mexico that feels safe peace. We want to have Argentina that feels safe peace. We want to have a Colombia that feels safe peace. We want to have a Venezuela that feels safe peace. Otherwise we can't feel the love. We want to have somebody that we trust and respect so we can love them. Right? That's what we want is our instinct to want this. It's our spirit to want this.
- [81:31]
Andrew Huberman
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- [83:38]
Cesar Millan
We can learn a lot from animals, right? I think all leaders should, should show us, you know, themselves with a pack of dogs so we can assess and evaluate their energy. Well, you know, because they, they say the philosophy we want to hear, hear, right? They always talk great about the intellectual part people want to hear, but then the energy and then the actions, that's what we end up seeing at the end, right? Look at Mexico, right? We always, oh, a woman president. Mexico is going to be well taken care same. No safe, no peace, no trust, no Respect, it's the same. It's a continuation of the same philosophy. But they all say great things. You see what I mean? I don't lie to dogs. I say, you know, listen, I'm going to bring you back your silence, your calmness, your surrender. That's my contribution to you. Because you humans made you fight flight, avoidance, and boom. I don't say nothing to the dog. I just feel it and I do it. I skip the saying because they don't care about what I say. They care about what I feel and what I do. The human cares about what you say. So you can just brainwash the human all you want, lie to the human, and the human will vote. We're the only species that follow unstable living leaders. There is no species that will vote for somebody that has unstable energy to begin with. They can care less what they say.
- [84:56]
Andrew Huberman
I watched that series on Netflix, Chimp Empire. It's fascinating. You know, it's very hierarchical, you know, troops. And the. The alpha occasionally will feel like he's losing some control over his troop. And he'll go on these displays where he starts breaking trees and beating his chest. And they look a lot more like humans. Humans look a lot more like them. But I saw an interview with Jane Goodall, you've probably seen this, where they said, you know what. What is your favorite thing about them? And she. And she says, no, dogs are my favorite species. You can really trust them.
- [85:31]
Cesar Millan
All right?
- [85:31]
Andrew Huberman
The chimps are like humans. They're way too much like us. They lie, they cheat, they. I mean, if you watch Chimp Empire, brace yourself for, you know, when they decide that going to ostracize a member of their. Of their group, it's. They make them suffer an extended punishment. It's. It's brutal. And that's the primate brain. Sadly, humans were.
- [85:53]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [85:54]
Andrew Huberman
Supposed to move beyond that. That's. That's our role. I'm making the assumption that some people either have a dog or they're thinking about getting one.
- [86:02]
Cesar Millan
Correct.
- [86:03]
Andrew Huberman
Preparing oneself for every interaction sounds like the. The. The thing to do until it becomes reflexive. It also. It's a lot of work. Like you describe a brief prayer at the door. Setting, intention. I think that's awesome.
- [86:18]
Cesar Millan
Yeah, Good habit.
- [86:20]
Andrew Huberman
Waking up in the morning. I will say hello to Strummer. I take care of myself first. Move about. If he has to use the bathroom or something, I'd let him out right away. But he waits and then he gets up and we do our thing. But the temptation to walk over there and just. He's you know, he's sleepy. He's a bulldog. He's calm and should just grow because I love him. My heart fills when I. When I, you know, walk in the room with them.
- [86:43]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [86:43]
Andrew Huberman
I think this is the thing that a lot of people are challenged with, but they're like. So for me, temporarily breaking down my notion of cuteness was very important. He doesn't understand cute.
- [86:56]
Cesar Millan
Right.
- [86:57]
Andrew Huberman
He has no concept of cute. He only understands what he understands. I'm the one projecting. Oh. But he's like, I want to cuddle him and I want to play with them. I confess, this is easier for me to do now that I've done it with one dog before. It's much harder for my girlfriend to do. She's like, she gets pulled in. We joke. You caved to love. We joke. You know, it's like we caved to our own feelings of love, but it can damage the safety and the. And the.
- [87:23]
Cesar Millan
And the.
- [87:23]
Andrew Huberman
The general pack order. And then people think, oh, pack order sounds like not love. Could you elaborate a little bit on why it's so important to stay in the frame of. We're really asking humans to think more like dogs, but to behave in a way that is somewhere in between.
- [87:38]
Cesar Millan
80% of my clients are women. 80%. When I go to, you know, their home, because I like to assess and evaluate the dynamics inside the house. The dog is in the front. Wife is number two. Kids are number three. Husband is in the back.
- [87:54]
Andrew Huberman
Back of the pack. This is in the United States.
- [87:56]
Cesar Millan
United States. Yeah, yeah, yeah. United States. So. So why the dog is in the front? She puts them there. Why? Because she only practice affection. And why the husband is in the back? Because she practiced rules, boundaries, limitations with him. You see it? So look, look. So she is capable to practice leadership, but she practices with the wrong member in the house. The dog needs the leadership. Right. Because why did they call me? Because now the dog doesn't. The kids can walk. Welcome. You know, the. The friends. Kids can come to the house. The dog steals food. Right. Or the dog barks at the neighbors. Right. They don't have the ideal life that they chose or they thought they were going to have by having this labradoodle. This should be the easiest one. Right. Because those two breeds are practically, you know, the. The epitome of, like, most D breed. I know, Right.
- [88:57]
Andrew Huberman
I tell the labradoodle people, like, try raising a bulldog mastiff.
- [89:01]
Cesar Millan
Right?
- [89:01]
Andrew Huberman
Yeah. From eight weeks on, you'll learn a lot about yourself.
- [89:06]
Cesar Millan
It's a different strength.
- [89:07]
Andrew Huberman
Yeah.
- [89:07]
Cesar Millan
Right. So this breeze should be easier because it's designed to be easier, but because they only practice affection first, only affection. The dog end up going in front of the pack. So this is what happens when people wants to practice affection first or when. When they prioritize affection to the dog, but to the rest of the pack. It's very clear for me that she practiced rules by limitations to the husband. He has to do whatever she said, but the dog doesn't do whatever she says. So that we have to change. We have to help people to understand. It's not that love is bad, it's just what are you giving love to?
- [89:51]
Andrew Huberman
I'm so happy you're raising this. I think some people will say, well, well, she has to treat the husband basically like a child because he's playing video games. I'm making the assumption here that we don't know what the dynamics are between the husband and the wife.
- [90:04]
Cesar Millan
Right.
- [90:05]
Andrew Huberman
And I. I have a lot of married couple friends where it seems very balanced. I don't know what happens when I'm not there, obviously, but I know somewhere. Yes, indeed. Like there's some infantilization of the male, but he does that to himself too.
- [90:17]
Cesar Millan
Okay.
- [90:18]
Andrew Huberman
He's behaving like a kid.
- [90:19]
Cesar Millan
Right.
- [90:19]
Andrew Huberman
Or I also have seen very balanced and I've seen where it's a bit more of kind of the structure I grew up in, at least for the early part of my life. Maybe it's because my father's from South America, but until my parents split, it was like my dad was the dad and then it was my mom and then, you know, and then there was the kids and sadly we didn't have a dog.
- [90:36]
Cesar Millan
But. Right.
- [90:37]
Andrew Huberman
Things are very different nowadays.
- [90:38]
Cesar Millan
Yeah. Right.
- [90:39]
Andrew Huberman
And so I'm trying to remove any assumptions that the dynamic between the husband and wife are that way solely because of one or the other. It's, it's. There's an agreement there.
- [90:50]
Cesar Millan
It's correct.
- [90:51]
Andrew Huberman
There's always an agreement. Yeah.
- [90:53]
Cesar Millan
The agreement is that he surrender. Yeah. That's the agreement. At one point, you don't want fight flight avoidance. So the guy end up surrendering, but the dog didn't. The dog took over.
- [91:02]
Andrew Huberman
And you also don't want so domineering that she's in flight. Flight surrendering.
- [91:07]
Cesar Millan
You don't want that.
- [91:09]
Andrew Huberman
That exists too. And that's bad also. Yeah.
- [91:12]
Cesar Millan
My relationship now with a woman is. Is I have that a good instinctual relationship. Right. Was my masculine energy is the. The one who gives direction, protection. When before I used to follow this Concept of happy wife, happy life. And how can I make her happy? She has to make herself happy. So I end up surrendering to everything she wanted. And so this concept of, you know, happy wife, happy life didn't work for me. Right. But. And so I just went back into, okay, I'm just going to become confident and attract a woman that wants to be calm, surrender to this area, which is the instinctual area. Spiritually, we're the same. Emotionally, we're the same. Financially, you know, we're the same. But instinctually, that's the part that I, I, I, I couldn't, I couldn't just not be masculine in. Right. Or calm, confident. I just couldn't.
- [92:10]
Andrew Huberman
I just couldn't.
- [92:12]
Cesar Millan
And that, that's, it works beautiful now.
- [92:14]
Andrew Huberman
Oh, it sounds like you, you've hit the bullseye.
- [92:18]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [92:18]
Andrew Huberman
There. Actually, I've. Since we're talking about human relationships, I have a friend, he has a very happy, very successful marriage. In, in the real sense that you walk into their home like that. They have some, they have a couple of kids. One of them has some special needs, but the, they're managing that well. The home is very balanced.
- [92:37]
Cesar Millan
They seem very, very happy.
- [92:39]
Andrew Huberman
And he was giving advice to some other guys, and he said, you know, among the women that would be like, partners, good partners for you, you have to make a decision about how much you want somebody who's going to give you instructions versus leave you alone, versus wants, you know, some direction. It's a very edgy thing to say, you know, at the time. Now you can have these kinds of con finally. Yeah. And, and it was very interesting. There were three other guys at the table, none of whom are married, including me. And we each had different answers to that question. One said, yeah, I want somebody that I can, like, really be in, like, kind of wants to be led.
- [93:22]
Cesar Millan
Right.
- [93:22]
Andrew Huberman
Not subservient, you know, obviously, respect and kindness. But, but the other one, he said, I want someone who's, like, really going to, like, keep me in line. How's it like? I was very shocked. I was like, this is incredible. But he was being, he was being honest. He wanted someone who was basically going to like, keep him out of his childlike nature.
- [93:40]
Cesar Millan
Okay.
- [93:41]
Andrew Huberman
When the childlike nature wasn't going to help.
- [93:43]
Cesar Millan
Right.
- [93:44]
Andrew Huberman
Keep the structure of the home. I think it's a very important thing, this notion of we don't have good words for this to keep us off of the barbed wire. Like, we hear dominance hierarchy, and it sounds like control, it sounds like subservience. It gets into Notions of, like, all sorts of things. But this is a fundamental aspect of the human spirit.
- [94:05]
Cesar Millan
That's the instinctual part. Like I said, we can both love God at the same level, we can love love at the same level, and we can all develop our intelligence at the same level. But when it comes to instincts, that's the only area in my life that I know that my calm confidence is going to lead my pack. Right? Because that's what I do with those dogs. That's practically it.
- [94:28]
Andrew Huberman
I walk a pack of dogs, so
- [94:30]
Cesar Millan
they all got to go into a calm surrender state. And so in my house, I wanted the same thing, because I want her to feel safe, peace. I want her to trust, respect. I wanted her to love that about me. But I have to be that man that has a high level of patience, high level of calmness, high level of confidence, high level of love. I need to earn that position. I don't just want it. I earned it. But I need to have a woman that understands, you know, that that's what I'm looking for, right? Yeah. Instinctually. Not in the mind, not in the house. Was temporary. No, no, no. This is permanently. You know your instincts. And I will provide safe peace. I will be a peaceful man, a safe man to be with, a trustworthy man, a respectful man, a loving man. Right. Smart man. I will always work on having good ethics, energy, and only following good philosophy and only doing good actions because I won that position.
- [95:24]
Andrew Huberman
Did you take some time before your current relationship, after your divorce to sort of feel into this and. And think about how you were gonna be that? Or is this something that you decided to evolve in the.
- [95:40]
Cesar Millan
I realized that I was picking the. I was picking the wrong woman. Right? I was. I was. I. I couldn't understand why I can pick a dog. Dog and. And making the perfect. I can pick a perfect dog for you. Like, I can go pick. I couldn't pick up the perfect woman for me. I just want the one for me, right? What I think is perfect for me. And so I. I had a trouble because I had the wrong philosophy inside my head, you know, what a man should do or what a woman should do. It was the wrong philosophy, period. Right. Once I changed the philosophy and then I went, okay, I just. I need to find a woman with. With this spirit, with this instinct, with this heart and with this mind. So I was more like, clear, right? Okay, now. Now I know what I'm looking for. Right? And she's a pack leader, but not in the house. She's a pack leader. She has three restaurants. She has a lot of money. Right. But she earned it. She did it on her own. Right. And. And that was, that was it. She came, said, I just want to give you my consulate. I said, that's all I want from a woman, you know, to have a beautiful relationship.
- [96:46]
Andrew Huberman
So she knew that she wanted to be in the role that she currently is.
- [96:50]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [96:51]
Andrew Huberman
Also, like, there was a knowledge of self going into it.
- [96:54]
Cesar Millan
Yeah. Because when she's, you know, she's doing her business, she has to be a pack leader. They get tired of being pack leaders. Right. They just. Just get tired of, like, I don't want to, you know, give direction and protection 24, 7. Even at home. Home. So at home, she just wanted somebody to give her safe peace, trust, respect, calm, surrender. That's. She needed to connect to her instincts. Right. It was important because, you know, she connects to. To God. So she's come surrender to God, right? So she's come surrender to the business. She's. But she needed to become. Surrender to a man. But it has to be the right man. So I was, I was the right man at that time. Right. Because I, I earned the position. You know, I didn't just machismo is you're not earning the position. You're just a man and da, da, da. No, no, no. When you're a good pack leader, you earn the position. You know who you are, you value who you are, and that's the. And that's what you love. Self knowledge, self value, self love. So I did my. My rehabilitation for me because, you know, even though my grandparents and my father taught me well about animals, they didn't taught me well about women. And they say you make money and you get whatever you. One.
- [98:01]
Andrew Huberman
That was it. Yeah. That's an incomplete.
- [98:05]
Cesar Millan
How do I assess and evaluate is that's the right woman? How do I. How do I do. How do I make sure I do good? Connection, communication, relationship, everything I teach with a dog. How do I. How can I achieve it with my same species? Right. But I didn't receive information, right. I just, I. I was just given a project, right. And I accomplished. I became money, fame, power. And I just went and grabbed whatever was available. Available.
- [98:29]
Andrew Huberman
Well, I can certainly say might. I'll just be direct.
- [98:35]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [98:35]
Andrew Huberman
Why tapped hits? I mean, I think my parents split because of a power struggle about roles in power. And my father's from a Latin country, my mother's not. But irrespective of that, it didn't matter. I used to think that was the reason but it was now, fortunately, they both remarried. They've been remarried for a very long time, very happily to have a new part started. And my sister and I always say, like, they're like. With their perfect fit. Yeah, it just like works because of exactly what you're describing. These, these dynamics. Yeah. I mean, I think. I didn't say it, but I saw online at some point someone said, you know, the way you destroy a country is to get the men and women to hate each other. And we see that a lot now. I like to think maybe things are improving a little bit. But so much of what we see because of anger at leaders, frustration with, you know, social dynamics and belief about what people can and can't become. All of this stuff has led to this place of a ton of distrust. But the power structure is all messed up.
- [99:36]
Cesar Millan
Yeah, they fight flight, avoid each other. Right. But they say they love each other and they still.
- [99:42]
Andrew Huberman
Because there's an instinct there. They still desire each other. Right. I mean, men and women are still seeking to be together, but you hear the, they're, you know, all the guys are like kids and you hear the. All the women are, you know, they want something that they, you know, can't be achieved in this common thing. And, you know, and I mean, confusion. Yeah, a lot of confusion. And of course, I know some very happy couples that, that where they've worked it out. But the roles in those couples seem very. It's like they're, they're being themselves and it just works.
- [100:10]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [100:10]
Andrew Huberman
Yeah.
- [100:11]
Cesar Millan
I just don't want to think about it. I just want to feel it. Right. I just want my spirit, my instinct and my heart. And I know what I got to do Anyway, around 56, I know what I got to do, but I just don't want to have a fight. Flight avoidance at home. Right. I just don't want to have that ever, ever, ever, ever. Right. So it's very clear to me, you know, that what I looking for is exactly what everybody looks for in a relationship. Human does not. Safe, peace, love, trust, respect, love, body, mind, heart, exercise, discipline, affection, follow, play, explore. Everybody wants the same thing. They just do it with a different species. I want to be able to do it with a different species and my own species, you know, and, and, and, and I'm. I'm the happiest I ever been. Right?
- [100:59]
Andrew Huberman
You, you breathe and exude happiness. I have to say, it's. It's real, it's. It's tangible.
- [101:05]
Cesar Millan
It's amazing because I was already happy with, with my goal in life. Right. My dream was to become the best doctor, became the dog whisperer. So I train humans, I don't train dogs. Right. So, so this dream was bigger than what I thought. But then I couldn't have a good relationship with a woman, which it was fascinating to me at that time. Why I have fight flight avoidance. Why I don't have calm surrender, happy go lucky, calm confident. Why don't. I'm not saying my woman is not calm confident towards me if I'm wrong and then yeah, she can, you know, give direction, protection, but if I'm not not, there's no need. Right. So that, that makes me a very consistent man with my, with my role. That's it. I, I keep my peace, I keep my, my, my patience, my calmness, my confidence, my love much every single day of my life. I, I don't miss one day, even if I don't feel good. You see it I, Internally I'm a hundred.
- [101:59]
Andrew Huberman
Because with people it only takes once to be on the receiving end of the. An outburst to just. There's always that little asterisk. Going forward, I share with you the, the deep desire and fortunately I have it now to not have fight orf flight at home or from a dog.
- [102:20]
Cesar Millan
Either.
- [102:20]
Andrew Huberman
Or from a dog either.
- [102:21]
Cesar Millan
Right.
- [102:21]
Andrew Huberman
I don't want to be scary. Exactly. So I'm guessing that the home you grew up in had a fair amount of fight or flight, otherwise maybe that would.
- [102:28]
Cesar Millan
It was very, very machismo. You know. My parents still marry, but that's all, you know, it was, it was this way or that's it, you know. So it was definitely more like sadness. Right. Because my mom was not allowed to do her own self, you know. And, and so that's obviously not healthy for, for the dream of, of a woman. Right. So she has to, you know, have just be a mom and stay at home. And it was, it was hard for her. Her, you know.
- [102:59]
Andrew Huberman
Yeah.
- [103:00]
Cesar Millan
But that's, that's all I saw, you know. Yeah. When, when my dad were disciplined with discipline with anger and when my mom was disciplined with discipline with guilt, you know, and, and that was it. But it worked a little bit. Then I come to America and there's ah, this. It's a completely different way of looking at things. Right. You can work on your energy, you can work on your philosophy, you can work on your actions and then you can become just as good as you are with a dog. Because I have an incredible relationship with dogs. Right. And an incredible relationship with God because he definitely allowed me to Become what I dream about. Right? And I came and did it in a different country. I have to learn a different language. Right. And then I went all over the world. That was God, right? Me following the spirit and the instinct. Now, I can tell you how I do did it. But in the beginning, when I jumped the border, it was all spiritual and it was all instinctual. It was all passion. It was not the mind. Doing was just my spirit and my instinct and my heart just following this dream. Right. And adapting. I have to learn this. I have to this. But then at the same time, I saw a lot of great things in America, you know, like, you can be you. Oh, yeah.
- [104:15]
Andrew Huberman
You can be you.
- [104:16]
Cesar Millan
That's great. This is a good philosophy. The Stoics. That's a great philosophy. Right? And then your actions, okay, Just walk. Shoulders up, head high, breathe, walk. And that's practice. Your body language, you know, also exudes what you're thinking and what you're feeling. And because I'm with dogs all day, I just keep that energy 24 7.
- [104:41]
Andrew Huberman
It's beautiful. The. As a practical tangent, the. The thing about just shoulders back and. And walk. I think it's funny to see when people try this, they're like. Like, I'm going to be the pack leader. That doesn't work. And I'll tell you, it really doesn't work with a bulldog mastiff.
- [104:57]
Cesar Millan
No. You can't fake it.
- [104:58]
Andrew Huberman
If you get frustrated with them, they feel it and they pull back. It's wild. They just can feel it. Like, if you're frustrated, let's go. It's like, no. I'll sometimes give a little bit of a stern. I have one little command that I occasionally use. I keep its potency. But if Costello, or in this case, Strummer, is really being stubborn just for stubborn sake, I'll do. And that's it. Yes. That's all it matters. But if I do that more than three times on a walk, it loses its potency.
- [105:27]
Cesar Millan
Correct.
- [105:28]
Andrew Huberman
It's just my way of saying, like, no. It's just a no.
- [105:31]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [105:31]
Andrew Huberman
But I don't say no. And if I feel it. Yeah. And if I were to. And I'm realizing as I say this, that little is probably more of a reminder to myself.
- [105:40]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [105:41]
Andrew Huberman
As much as it's a reminder to him.
- [105:42]
Cesar Millan
It happened to both.
- [105:43]
Andrew Huberman
Yeah. I'm just kind of trying to create this thing. Like, no, go. I lead this walk. You need this walk. I need this walk. We're doing this walk. And he just.
- [105:51]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [105:51]
Andrew Huberman
He goes. Now it's A little bit tougher. When my girlfriend walks him, he tests her more. So can we talk about that? When a dog is in a. Very respectful of one person, obeys the boundaries, but then to other people, they're acting out. How should that be remedied? If the three of us walk together, for instance, he'll do whatever she. She wants with me. He does. Does whatever I decide.
- [106:13]
Cesar Millan
Yeah, okay.
- [106:14]
Andrew Huberman
But sometimes with her, she'll say, he was great. No, he was really difficult. How does one facilitate that?
- [106:20]
Cesar Millan
I think the first thing women have to realize is how much they are in their emotions and how much they think about things. Right. So, you know, the fact that we go into the silence and the calmness and just we follow through is. Is that's the spirit, the instinct and the mind. Mind. And that's what. That's what's walking the dog. But in my experience, women go into the emotional vibration and then they say castello, and they begin to have a intellectual conversation. So the dog knows that that human is only using half of who they are, which is the heart and the mind. Right. And so it's very important for women to remember the spirit is a powerful thing. And say, how do I gonna practice silence? And it's instinct. It's a powerful thing. How I'm gonna practice instinct. Breath. You're calm inside, right. And you just want to go from point A to point B. Very simple, very practical. You're not negotiating, you're not looking at anything else. You're not distracted. You're just going, you know, for the task. And then the dog just follows that silence. The calmness and the confidence is when the human doesn't use that vibration that a dog has an option to get distracted, to do other things, to go away from the routine or from the structure, from whatever you want to. You want to do. But at the same time, the same woman can ride a horse. And in order to ride a horse, she have to be quiet, calm, confident.
- [107:51]
Andrew Huberman
Oh, yeah. My first girlfriend was a. She had horses at home. Yeah, they had a stable below their home. They actually weren't that wealthy, but dad actually had like a. Not even a junior high school education. He came over from Greece, he became a taxi driver, and he was going to give his daughters this life and they had this horse. And it was incredible to see her because she's a very, very quiet person, actually very artistic and. But with her horse. And he was a wild one. He was gelded late, and so it was a whole thing.
- [108:21]
Cesar Millan
And.
- [108:21]
Andrew Huberman
And. But her in the presence of that horse, like, she just understood because he was dangerous. He was actually a dangerous animal. And a totally different side of her came out. And so the first time I realized, I was like, I was. I mean, I was a teenager, right. But I was like, wow, like, she has this immense power. That's not like the kind of power that we think about. Of course, women have power, you know, all this, but it was a completely different landscape. And I was like, whoa. I mean, first of all, I can't do that.
- [108:47]
Cesar Millan
Right.
- [108:48]
Andrew Huberman
I had to learn to be around him.
- [108:49]
Cesar Millan
Correct.
- [108:50]
Andrew Huberman
But just the. The level of calm and confidence to clean a horse, like, you know, a course can kill you.
- [108:57]
Cesar Millan
Yeah, right.
- [108:58]
Andrew Huberman
But if you walk around going, oh, my gosh, this horse can kill me. It does not go well.
- [109:02]
Cesar Millan
But exactly, you know, so what we have to remember is, is the human part before the gender, right? So just go back to your human. Can a man and a woman ride a horse? Yeah. Why? Because they're using the same energy. Energy and the same philosophy and the same actions. So is it because it's a man or a woman? No, no, it's because they're using the same energy. So it's a human thing. Right. Not a gender thing. Right. So I invite, you know, my. My female clients to. Don't forget you also have this calm confidence inside of you that your dog needs. Right. Craves, especially in Europe, because most of the time people call me because the dog is in a fight state. Right. So most of my cases are aggressive aggression. And so in your case, you have no choice. You have to lead the pack. And the only way you can lead the pack is with calm confidence. You love the pack with love and joy. So you already know how to do that. Right. You have to get. You have to tap into what people call masculine energy. Right? That's. So can. Can. Can a woman ride a horse? Yes. She has to be in this energy to do it. You see it? She has to. So she. They just have to learn to recognize, okay, I'm not changing me. I'm just using everything about me, right? It's like a man. Can a man use the feminine side? Yes, you can. Of course you have it, right? As you love joy and your masculine is your calm, confident. Silence is for everybody. It's your patience. Right? So silence is before calm confidence or love, joy. And this is what they call feminine, and this is what they call masculine killing. Right? So it's however you want to call it. Just be the whole human. Use your spirit, use your instinct, use your heart, use Your mind, trust, respect, love, and then do whatever your mind wants to do. It has nothing to do with women or a man. But if we divide and we see each other different or say no, it's because I'm a woman, I have to be emotional. Yes, you can be emotional at the right time, just like a man can be emotional at the right time. Nobody's saying not to be loving. What we're saying is how to use this energy for good. Where you reward good behavior on humans and good behavior on dogs with the energy of love. Right. If the energy of love can change bad, it will be no bad man in the world. Right. Because moms normally give you love, but love doesn't change the bad energy. Energy is the calm confidence that changed the bad energy.
- [111:32]
Andrew Huberman
The idea that, you know, society is broken, humans are broken. I mean, there are a lot of problems in the world right now, purposely. By the way, tell me more.
- [111:41]
Cesar Millan
If we get the wrong information, we're going to be no connection, communication, relationships. So how can we become powerful? Right. Because when we unite and then we become powerful, the pack unites. But if the pack is separated, the pack fights flight and avoid each other other. Right. So purposely we get the wrong information. That's why my goal is to give people the right information. If you have low money, middle class, rich, it really doesn't matter. We should all know the same thing about dogs. We should all know the same thing about God. We should all know the same thing about Earth. All of us. It has nothing to do with what position in the backyard, economically speaking. See it. So what does that world looks like? Well, that world look like all humans around the world world. Regardless of the economical position, they're all going to have an amazing relationship with dogs. How? Because they all have the same information. That's it.
- [112:34]
Andrew Huberman
I, I love that. I mean, I feel like we're, we're drifting further and further away from ourselves as, as a species. And what I'm hearing is that looking at our interactions with this other species, dogs, and looking at our practicing our ability to get outside ourselves and tap into other aspects of ourselves, like the need for calm confidence when we just want to be loving. That's really about wanting to be loved.
- [112:58]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [112:59]
Andrew Huberman
You know, the person coming home is not, it's not that the dog needs their love. They can hear, oh, you know, actually the dog needs calm confidence. But I translate it as no, that this person just feels so tired. At the end of the day, what they need is something that just adores them. Yeah. You know, and the whole process of raising Costello was one of reading your book. Really? This is why you're here? I mean. Cause I saw and experienced so much value from your teaching and then realizing that if I really want to get what I want, yeah, it means building the relationship, means not doing this thing in the moment. I'm thinking about the whole relationship, safety first, et cetera. And so it's this kind of counterintuitive thing of needing to go against self in the moment to create the sort of picture where you get so much more and everybody wins. Yeah. There is a version of everybody, including the dogs, wins.
- [113:53]
Cesar Millan
Everybody wins.
- [113:54]
Andrew Huberman
But it requires a level of self discipline, awareness, calmness, breathing that I think many people and certainly in that time I felt like just so much constant pressure to do, do, do. So there's a certain amount of slowing down and self awareness that's required for everything that you're describing. What is your practice for that on a daily basis? I mean you're a master now, right? You're a virtuoso at this. Yeah. But for the, I would say there's unskilled, skilled master and virtuosity, you're up
- [114:22]
Cesar Millan
back in the back of the background.
- [114:24]
Andrew Huberman
But so for somebody that's trying to move from unskilled to skill in the domain of like slowing down, thinking about what the priority in this interaction is, getting all that working while life is happening in real time, lots happening and it's coming through the phone and this and that, schedules. How do you recommend younger, old, that people, people start to cultivate this awareness and this.
- [114:46]
Cesar Millan
I think the quicker we become aware what is life about, right? Because we all going to die. And so what, what, what is life about? And life is about life, right? Life is to be happy, to be healthy, to be loving and to be smart. That's life. And then it's time. How you structure, how you manage time, right? And, and, and then it's memories, that's all you take. Once you realize those three things, I think you're going to be able to focus and experience life the way animals do, right. Because they're very grateful of life. They structure time very wisely and then by the time they die, they only take good memories, right. Because that's all you take, good memories. And so the quicker we surrender to that concept, the quicker we are going to focus on what's, what's valuable, right? And, and what, and things that we can definitely practice that this, this concept of love. Love, right. And so that to me is be grateful of life. Every Day, be thankful of life every day, you know, learn with your mind to learn to achieve, give it away. It's very important to be at service and make other humans, you know, or animals, you know, achieve what you just achieved. And of course, you know, the energy of love to love those three things about it, right? Your spirit, your instinct and your mind. Learn to love that about you because that's who you are. So who sees a Milan Caesar? Milan is a spirit, he's an instinct, he's a heart and he's a mind, right? So, and then, oh man, I value that so much. And, and now once I value that, it's easy to love what you value. You see it, it's easy to love what you value. And so once you realize this, this natural, simple, profound self, you want to give it away. I give it away to dogs. And because I do that, I get to rehabilitate dogs. Dogs, the people unconsciously have confused. See, because dogs in America, you know, dogs in third world country are skinny, but they don't have psychological problems. Dogs in America are chunky. And I get to have a TV show. So dogs in America should be the happiest, healthiest, loving, smartest dog on earth because that, dogs in America have rights. You understand that concept. But why would a guy from Mexico comes to America and National Geographic gives him a TV show? Because America created Fight Flight Avoidance unconsciously, even though America loves dogs more than any other country I ever seen in my life. Dogs have birthday parties in America. Dogs have Christmas presents in America. Dogs get married in America. Dogs get married. That's taking the humanization to another level. But that's, that's, that's just shows you, you know, the, the, the creativity of human. But not because the dog has all this money, fame and power. The dog is happy. My goal is, is for people to understand that, you know, happiness and health and, and, and having a good heart and having a, a good creative mind shouldn't take too much, right? It's just, it's just about being grateful, right? It's just about being thankful. It's about loving those two things. And then make sure that your mind learn, achieve, gives it away or learn. So don't use your mind to think bad things.
- [118:02]
Andrew Huberman
What's your process for turning off your mind? This is a very common challenge for people.
- [118:09]
Cesar Millan
I think the easiest way for people to experience because they have to see it, right? You can tell people, but if they don't see it inside, they're never going to understand what you mean. So what I help People with is I put them in the cold plunge. Right. And once they go through the fight flight avoidance, they want to see and they get to the calm surrender. What are you thinking? I'm thinking nothing. That's exactly what, what, what a clear mind looks like. Right. So through that cold plunge experience, the human gets to understand breath, patience, you know, confidence and not to think anything because you're doing this with your spirit and your instinct in your heart. This is your mind. Just have to wait for the three minutes, that's it. Without anticipation. So there's just nothing there. Right. And then of course the call doesn't let you think. Right. But the only thing you can do is breathe and wait. And so then once they see it.
- [119:05]
Andrew Huberman
Okay.
- [119:06]
Cesar Millan
That is the meaning of not having nothing in your mind. Right. So I make them experience it versus if I just tell them they can't picture it.
- [119:15]
Andrew Huberman
As somebody who's a real believer, as you probably know, in deliberate cold exposure, I mean I think it's, it's people, it's zero cost. I mean you use a cold shower, you know, it saves on the water bill. So this isn't like having to run out and buy something. What it tells me because the cold plunge immediately reliably releases adrenaline which then wakes up the brain as well. Does your instinct shuts down the forebrain. The very fascinating that you're saying this because the forebrain is strategy. Etc but in the first 20 or 30 seconds of deliberate cold exposure, the prefrontal cortex which controls impulse, all the top down inhibition of impulse is. It's not shut off, but it is greatly diminished. You can't strategize well, you're just thinking out, you know. So you're saying people need to get past the point where they're trying to suppress impulse, but they need to experience adrenaline.
- [120:11]
Cesar Millan
That's right.
- [120:12]
Andrew Huberman
Got it.
- [120:12]
Cesar Millan
Yeah, that's right.
- [120:14]
Andrew Huberman
And they get to peace.
- [120:15]
Cesar Millan
Yeah. Yep.
- [120:16]
Andrew Huberman
And that's the energy to bring to your interaction with your dog.
- [120:20]
Cesar Millan
Yeah. Yes.
- [120:21]
Andrew Huberman
And ideally to your spouse and your kids too.
- [120:23]
Cesar Millan
Everywhere. Everywhere. So a human after a cold plunge brings that energy. You don't have to talk. Everybody knows your energy feels really good. All because you went to mother Nature. Right. That was mother Nature cold. Right. It's water cold. That's mother nature. Right. So imagine you bring that energy to your to. To meeting a dog, to walking with a dog, to feeding a dog. That's it. That's all I want people to experience. Because everybody wants, ah, they want to do that. Right. Or they want to do. I'm not aware how I feel. I just want to give affection. You see it so that, so that, that is good for the human, not necessarily good for everybody else because that human's spreading that energy. So my goal is for people to spread, you know, silence, calmness, confidence, love, joy. Because that's exactly how you feel after a cold plunge. Exactly. And three minutes you get into that stage, you have to learn to love. You know the process of. I'm going to fight flight, avoidance, but I'm not going to listen to that part of me. I'm going to listen to my calm surrender, I'm going to listen to my calm confidence and then once I finish, I'm going to listen to my happy go lucky. And that's all you want. That's it. Those three state of minds are super powerful.
- [121:36]
Andrew Huberman
You know I've thought a lot about deliberate cold exposure, adrenaline, norepinephrine. You get this long arc of dopamine that lasts hours and hours and hours afterwards. And my critics will say well it's just dopamine in the body, not in the brain. Actually new findings show it's dopamine in your brain and body. Long arc. Very few things produce this thing of long lasting dopamine. Drugs will spike in drug.
- [121:59]
Cesar Millan
Right? Well, good relationship with a dog is long lasting dopamine. You know, a well balanced dog is a long lasting whatever you want. You know, I hope you want the four world. Your spirit, your instinct, your heart and your mind. All of them by walking, just walk with the dog for a long period of time. Then you do your play. Explore. That's the best medicine any human can, can get.
- [122:23]
Andrew Huberman
It's that the amount of peace that I still get from my relationship with Costello. I mean he's passed now, but he's still in. His spirit is, I mean it makes me well up, you know, not out of sadness. It's like I, I can feel the love of the relationship.
- [122:40]
Cesar Millan
Right.
- [122:40]
Andrew Huberman
You know, I had to ask and, and on my list and I'm going to ask is this the right time? I believe so. As Costello got to 11 years old. It's pretty old for a bulldog.
- [122:52]
Cesar Millan
That's right.
- [122:53]
Andrew Huberman
He had a, some sort of spinal stroke. He couldn't walk, he was falling over. I was like distraught. How can I get this fixed? And at some point I realized, you know when people say like they'll let you know. Yes, I had a feeling and then a thought and it went something like this. I made a contract with him to take care of him.
- [123:11]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [123:12]
Andrew Huberman
And in the contract of being a really good dog owner. But, like, mostly in the contract of the relationship, I owed him a. A peaceful exit. Hated going to the vet. So I got someone to come to the house and do this thing. Most people, they hate the concept of death, especially in family members or a dog. And I think it would have been useful to me to understand the day I got him, that someday this is going to end.
- [123:40]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [123:41]
Andrew Huberman
I think, like, this thing about honoring death as a real thing is so important because that last two weeks was a real struggle between me and myself. My desire to just keep it going and I realized I was being selfish was about me. And of course, I. I gave him the best passage I. I could. And people in my life who knew me and knew my relationship to him, they said, I. I actually can't believe you did it. I'm surprised you were able to. But the moment I realized, like, this is the final line in being in the contract of being a really good dog owner, I was like, of course I have to do this.
- [124:16]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [124:17]
Andrew Huberman
So no one likes this topic, but given where you're from, what is your relationship to the concept of death as it relates to dogs? And the question is very specific here. Do people say they know? They'll let you know.
- [124:31]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [124:33]
Andrew Huberman
The question I want to know is, is it okay to show your dog sadness, or does it make the dog that's dying more anxious?
- [124:41]
Cesar Millan
With my kids, because I have two kids and, you know, obviously we have a pack of dogs and they have experienced dogs passing. We always make a celebration vibration. I always bring them to their favorite place. So I. I definitely bring more the energy of happiness. And I. I ask my kids, if you're gonna cry or whatever, just do it away from them. Otherwise you hold them. Right. So I don't. I want them to go back. That's why it's so good to think, to believe in God, because they're going back to the source, so they're way better with him than with, you know, here. I did my homework Right, too, also. So I feel really good that I gave the best life for that particular dog. Right. And so when it's time to go, they tell you. Yeah. They tell you they can, you know, as many. Many signs, but at the same time, it's, you know, when it's the day, is everybody happy? Everybody's happy. We're going to. We're going to dance. We're going to celebrate. We're going to, you know, it's a ritual. You can make a sad ritual or you can make a happy ritual. You see, it's time for him to depart, time to go. So when I die, I want everybody to be happy. Okay? I don't want no sadness. I listen. My life is beyond what I thought, right. So I give that same life to a dog. Same. I'm very dedicated human. Seven days a week. Even if I don't feel good, it doesn't matter. I go and walk that pack. I'm very committed. Right. It's all about honor. It's all about respect. That's my way of showing my heart. And in my mind, I don't have one day that's I. I did wrong by them. So when it's time for them to go, it's time for them to go. But we're going to make happy about it because they're going back to God. That's how I see it. And, you know, as you said, as you. As you're talking about, the spirit never dies. You know, spirit never dies. And as an opening for me to help another soul. And another soul, because that's what. That's why I'm here, right. I'm here on earth so my time can be used wisely to keep helping. And that's what I find, you know, my inspiration, motivation, patient. That's it.
- [126:43]
Andrew Huberman
Beautiful. Not what I expected. And I'm so pleasantly surprised. It challenges me to even say it because he's still so new, but when Strummer dies.
- [126:52]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [126:53]
Andrew Huberman
The last 24 hours of his life will be a celebration.
- [126:56]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [126:56]
Andrew Huberman
With him.
- [126:57]
Cesar Millan
Yeah. Celebration. All right. Yeah. All right. Happy spirit, you know, sing, laugh, dance, you know, just happiness. Because they, Once you start going like this, they don't. They. They get wild, worry, you know, and then the spirit lingers. You don't want it. You just wanted to go, you know, and for them to give you direction, protection, this, you know, I have a big pack on Heaven.
- [127:21]
Andrew Huberman
You definitely have a big pack waiting for you.
- [127:24]
Cesar Millan
When I go home, you know, I got to have the. You know, how many dogs have I saved my life. So, yeah, I'm going home. I love it. You know, Earth is a beautiful home, but it's temperament temporary.
- [127:36]
Andrew Huberman
Yeah, well, I believe this, too. Yeah. I've talked a bit about my faith. Now's not the time. But I'm, you know, my audience knows I'm very, very much in. In agreement that, you know, this is. This is an amazing phase of us. Yeah. But it's not the only phase. And so if people are feeling sad, like, you know, the number of People I know who turn to their dog for emotional support.
- [127:57]
Cesar Millan
Yes.
- [127:58]
Andrew Huberman
Around a loss of a loved one or a breakup or loss of a. Judges of the world, whatever.
- [128:03]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [128:05]
Andrew Huberman
What is your stance on that?
- [128:07]
Cesar Millan
It's bad because they're passing that energy. Dog doesn't know what happened. But I mean, obviously they're going to help you absorb the energy. But after you did that, just take him to the beach so you can let go to the energy. Same thing when you bring a dog to a hospital. Right. And the therapy dogs, they go to hospitals, you know, kids with cancer, depressed people, blah, blah, blah. That dog absorbs that energy. Okay. Just like you will and absorb people's energy. Your job is to go and let it go. So every time you give bad energy as, you know, help people or help dogs to get rid of that energy, that is not healthy for them. Yeah. Utilize it. You know, it's available. But again, you can also go and take a cold plunge before you hug the dog. And that way you kill that energy, you know, Kill that energy. Just kill it. And only give good energy to your family. Family. Give good energy to your home. It's discipline. It's easier to go and throw that negative energy that you just grab. It's easier. But then you spread the whole thing everywhere.
- [129:07]
Andrew Huberman
Oh, man. I saw in so many laboratories where the, the boss, you know, brilliant scientists thinking of one in particular, and they would do this like what I would call trickle down anxiety. They'd be stressed and they'd walk through the lab stressing out. Graduate school is already hard.
- [129:22]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [129:22]
Andrew Huberman
Especially in the, if I may, in the sciences.
- [129:24]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [129:25]
Andrew Huberman
Very, very hard, very competitive. Postdoc is even more uncertain. Like you don't, you don't get a degree at the end, you're investing five years of your life, you know, and for. To walk around the boss, walking around, like making people anxious.
- [129:37]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [129:37]
Andrew Huberman
Terrible. The other thing that was terrible was walking around making people feel overly confident. People would do that too. So everything you're saying, it's like you could see it in these very hierarchical human relationships. But I think with dogs, we, we're so. I'm just going to say it. I feel like we are so selfish as a species like that. These animals are here for us and just for us. To give me love when I get home, to console me when I'm sad. To give me all the things I want.
- [130:04]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [130:05]
Andrew Huberman
That I would be blind to the, the basic needs of that animal. It really is, it's as selfish in my opinion as saying, oh, these are animals. That we work on, that just serve our purposes to advance our careers or scientific understanding. And again, there's a place, but we have to be incredibly nuanced about where that's appropriate and where it's inappropriate. It's just a selfishness, the selfish part
- [130:28]
Cesar Millan
and the unselfish part. So what I'm saying is don't forget, you know, to be at service before somebody is at service to you. Right? So the spirit, instinct, love to be at service. And then the, the, the love and, and the mind loves to be served. So this is your selfish part of it, and this is your unselfish part of it. You see it. So you're here to serve God and you're here to serve earth. All right? So you don't forget that right to be at service because they skip it. So once you go directly to the heart and the mind. This is what I want. I want my dog to love me. Okay, fine. You just skip spirit and instinct, right? Because a spirit will never bring bad energy to the heart and instinct will never bring bad energy to the heart mind. You see? So, so if you remember that you are four things and, and this is what you want to give to your dog, to yourself, to your house, to your family. And then you're going to be focusing on, on, on making sure that you snap out of it, whatever like you do on yourself to snap out of it. Right. And then, and then you go bring, you know, patience, calmness, confidence, love, and then you go hug the dog. So you also have to learn to snap yourself out of bit from whatever energy you went and attract. It's, it's like stepping on poop. You got to remove your, your shoe before you walk into the house, otherwise you bring that scent. So energy is the same way. It's like poop on your feet. Bad energy is the same. You're going to spread all over the house.
- [131:59]
Andrew Huberman
Absolutely.
- [131:59]
Cesar Millan
Your plants are going to die. You know, your dogs are going to be like, okay, this energy is not good.
- [132:05]
Andrew Huberman
So we.
- [132:06]
Cesar Millan
Right. And then your family will get it. So you enter, you're going to enter into this dark energy.
- [132:13]
Andrew Huberman
These days on social media, there's so much I'm realizing about the low level stuff. Like you should never hug a dog. You should hug a dog. You should never pick up your dog off the ground. Yeah, it's okay to pick up. Your dog should never be in your bed. Your dog should be in your bed. You see all these contradictions. You see the same thing in the health space.
- [132:33]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [132:34]
Andrew Huberman
Like you should cold plunge you shouldn't cold plunge, you should sauna, you should like it. And it comes down to a basic fact, which is that it's not about the practice, it's the, it's the principle behind it, the spirit behind it, the energy behind it. So I was tempted to ask you, like, is it bad to pick up the dog? Actually, Strummer loves being held. Costello hated it. Strummer, he's ha. He's basically happiest just being carried around. But I know you don't. I don't carry around too much. But it's funny. He just drapes. Yeah. He's so happy that way. He wishes he could go through the world that way. Frankly. It's not about carry or don't carry.
- [133:07]
Cesar Millan
No.
- [133:08]
Andrew Huberman
It's about what is your energy. Why are you doing this? Is it for you, is it for them? What's okay?
- [133:14]
Cesar Millan
And if the dog feels. Because you know, you can ask a groomer or a vet, they have to carry that dog, but they can't carry a fight. Flight avoidance. Right. They can only carry a happy go lucky one or a calm surrender one. Those are so. It's nothing wrong hugging a dog. There's nothing wrong putting a dog on the bed. There's nothing wrong wrong. It's just what state of mind the dog was in when you did this is more important, Right? Because what about if a dog is in a, is in a flight state and you want to carry him, he's going to feel trapped and then the dog is going to bite or he's going to pee or he's going to scream. Right. So you could have prevent that just by not focusing on what you wanted to do. Is, is the dog that you want to do that in a calm surrender state. Right. Can the dogs stay on the bed? There's nothing wrong. You know, sharing your house with the dog is. Think about invading versus inviting. Okay? So when the dog goes on his own, he's in by invading when the dog is waiting and then you tell him to come over and you tell him where to go. That's being invited. So that mind is going to become surrendered, the other one is going to get territorial. You know how many times I have rehabilitated dogs who claim people's bed where the husband can't come near.
- [134:25]
Andrew Huberman
Oh my goodness.
- [134:27]
Cesar Millan
Because the wife and the dog were already there. I, I done a rehabilitation where the husband slipped in the living room for three years because she wanted the dogs to stay in the bed. And when every time the guy came into the, into the bedroom the dogs will go after him.
- [134:44]
Andrew Huberman
I'm sure everyone is thinking, what did he do wrong? This is, you know, we're living in this time now where there's this projection of like, well, he must have done something wrong. I don't. I can also imagine the situation you just described where no one did anything wrong except give the dog too much power.
- [134:59]
Cesar Millan
Correct.
- [135:00]
Andrew Huberman
That there's actually. Let's assume there's no problem between the couple.
- [135:02]
Cesar Millan
Correct.
- [135:03]
Andrew Huberman
She would like the husband in the bed, perhaps, but. But the dog is somehow picking up on something.
- [135:09]
Cesar Millan
Yeah, no, no, she said it clearly to me. I just don't want him on the bed.
- [135:13]
Andrew Huberman
The husband, okay, so there the dog is basically taking advantage of the open.
- [135:17]
Cesar Millan
Well, listen, let's say you guys want to spend 20 minutes on. On the bed. Let me show you how to do it. And so that's what I, I taught the dogs, just to wait.
- [135:26]
Andrew Huberman
Wow.
- [135:26]
Cesar Millan
Right. But she needed to make sure that she agrees with agreement, commitment, follow through. Right. Nothing can happen without agreement. So she needs to be in 100% agreement. Otherwise the dog will not do it.
- [135:38]
Andrew Huberman
They really can sense. Yeah. Any kind of small fraction of your
- [135:43]
Cesar Millan
energy goes down, they're going to take over. Your energy goes up, they're going to move away. Right? Your energy have to be bigger for you to create the follow. If your energy goes down, you follow them. Simple as that. Simple as that. You just. You just have to remember energy, right? And then if you want to lead, this is the end. Animals, you can lead, humans lying to them all day long. But with animals, you can. You have to bring the perfect energy, the right energy and energy that belongs to all of us, right? Your patient energy, your calm energy, your confident energy. You love energy. You. We all have that inside of us, right? God gave us all the same thing. That's up to you. Do you go from the back of the pack to the front of the pack? That's up to you, right? But you have patience, calmness, confidence, love, joy, because that's how you're going to deal with life, right? So with animals, it's a perfect way to maintain this, you know, within yourself, right? It's like a gym, going to the gym every day, day, Right? But it's just the gym is mother Nature, the beach, the streets, whatever. You're just walking around with dogs in a natural, simple, profound way, and that's it. And then you go to work. So imagine if people develop this beautiful habit. Okay, I'm going to do what Caesar says, you know, silence, calmness, confidence, love. Joy for 30, 40 minutes. And then I'm going to feel the silence, the calmness. Then I go to work, right? And when I come back, no touching, no talk, no eye contact, sending my dog back in her. And then I can do the greeting. Then I go for another walk, right? And then you can do the play and explore. No bad behavior. What happened in your house with that simple formula.
- [137:26]
Andrew Huberman
I love it. I hope that people start to think about their dog and getting a dog as more of a gym as opposed to. I'm. We're going to get a fur baby. I have a friend, I have to be very careful here. This is truly not about my household. But I have a friend, she's married. Married. They're going through some struggles. They have two kids. And she told me the other day they never had a dog. She's going to get two husky puppies. And I said, do me a favor, just get one. Yeah, in six months if you. But they want each other, this and that. And the kids are young, there's no way. And I, and I know the struggles that they're having and they're both overworked, they're under resourced. So this is. And they love each other very much. But this is like a really hard situation, right. And I'm thinking to myself, I want to be supportive. And I said, do not get a puppy now. And if you do, do not get two puppies. Yeah, this is like insanity. Like you, like you want to, like it could break your family. Or. She said, but I promise the kids
- [138:24]
Cesar Millan
break your heart because you have to get rid of the dogs.
- [138:26]
Andrew Huberman
So this. She said, my, it was a story. It's very interesting. She said, when I was growing up, my parents would make these promises and they wouldn't do it. And I told. And it broke my heart. And I told my kids they could each get one. And I said, said. I said, well, you have no idea the kind of heartbreak they're going to experience when you have to give them both back because one is biting the kid or one is, you know, like. And she's like, oh, I wouldn't want. And I was thinking myself. And you're already under resourced.
- [138:51]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [138:51]
Andrew Huberman
I share this because I'm realizing throughout today's conversation our concept of dogs and what they owe us is completely backwards. She's a very good person. I won't state her profession for states, but she's in a, A, a profession of intense service all day long and has. I've known it for more than two decades, but the Concept is these puppies are going to come here and rescue us. Yeah.
- [139:14]
Cesar Millan
This is like fulfill the dream that I had.
- [139:17]
Andrew Huberman
Yeah.
- [139:17]
Cesar Millan
Right. With prior to, you know, with my parents.
- [139:20]
Andrew Huberman
More love. Just more love can't be bad. More love can't be bad.
- [139:23]
Cesar Millan
Yeah. And they're huskies. Right. So this is a breed. They love to migrate longer than any other breed and world. Right. So walking is one thing, migration is another.
- [139:34]
Andrew Huberman
This is why I got a bulldog. I got a bullet bulldog breed. I actually didn't get a purebred bulldog because I. They have issues. Yeah, they have issues, but, yeah, a dog that needs to migrate. How much walking do they need per day?
- [139:45]
Cesar Millan
Ideally, of course, and especially a pack. So the bigger the pack, the longer the walk.
- [139:49]
Andrew Huberman
I know they, they both work such.
- [139:51]
Cesar Millan
You can also let her know, hey, begin with fostering. So that way they get to know themselves as a family. Family. Is everybody in agreement? Does everybody understand what the rules, boundaries, limitations are? Does everybody understand what the responsibilities are? Can we all see our good habits and our bad habits? Do we all follow through? So with a foster dog, you're not adopting and you're just temporary keeping him in the house. So the dog gets a home and a family. It doesn't necessarily have to stay in that house.
- [140:22]
Andrew Huberman
House.
- [140:22]
Cesar Millan
But the human gets to learn about themselves before they enter into the purchase or the adoption. Right. So to have two puppies, huskies, you got to have to purchase them. Right. And so she's going to go into, make a purchase and then eventually you realize we were not ready as a family. In my mind, I was ready, but in the whole pack, we're not ready. Right. And the puppyhood is from birth to a mother months. So in a matter of six months, you have a dog that is this big who is an adolescent. Now, right now you got to think about spay, neuter, because if you don't, then you deal with the, the, you know, the hormones and then they can start fighting with each other.
- [141:06]
Andrew Huberman
What's your take on spay and neuter?
- [141:08]
Cesar Millan
Well, in America it's necessary because dogs are not going to mate and so. And they spend a lot of time indoors.
- [141:16]
Andrew Huberman
So I neutered Costello.
- [141:18]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [141:19]
Andrew Huberman
I put him on testosterone therapy his final two years. Vets that I knew said we would love to be able to do that more, but there are reasons we don't. With Strummer, I thought, keep him intact.
- [141:33]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [141:34]
Andrew Huberman
Then people say, oh, but then they're going to mate with all the dogs in the neighborhood. You can also give a dog a vasectomy this very easy procedure. It's funny, we don't do that. I learned that in Australia it's illegal to not neuter your dog. In Scandinavia, it's illegal to neuter your dog.
- [141:49]
Cesar Millan
Yes, right.
- [141:49]
Andrew Huberman
What in the world is best?
- [141:51]
Cesar Millan
Well, it depends on the, on the, on the place.
- [141:53]
Andrew Huberman
Right.
- [141:53]
Cesar Millan
Because in America, without a doubt, since the dogs don't go out as often, they, they're relied on the human dogs in a tor country, they're not neuter, but they're not looking for trouble. They're not, you know, they're. They may. When the female gets in heat. Otherwise they're busy looking for food and walk water. So, you know, as long as you use your energy for, to, for survival purposes, you're not going to develop frustration. So, so what happens, you know, when a dog is intact and they don't get to walk enough and they don't get to be challenged enough and then it all goes into the arouse and they're. The whole day they're excited. And if people go, oh baby, the thing comes out. Right. And then, and then the dog gets excited. How many. I don't know if you've ever seen it, but I see it a lot. Dogs humping their owners or those humping furniture in the house.
- [142:44]
Andrew Huberman
I mean, Costello tried to hump me once. Yeah. It never happened again. I just made it, I just made it very clear that was not okay. And I used isolation. I just put him back in a thing I left came back. Yeah, I sent him the message mentally, energetically. That's never happening again. Again. It was very stern.
- [143:05]
Cesar Millan
It has to be clear day one. So that happens in day one. But a lot of times people go, no, no, no. They're so they more celebrate that. Right. And so they end up in a celebration and end up funny. But the dog end up becoming more and more aroused about the humans. So now he's mounting, which as you know, is a sexual. And his dominance, you know, behavior towards the human. So in America, definitely a dog needs to be neutered more, more often. Plus we have an overpopulation. You know, millions of dogs die every year because there's an overpopulation problem. And that's taxpayer money. Who pays for, for the killing of dogs. So it's important that we regulate that through. That's the only way you can regulate that.
- [143:51]
Andrew Huberman
I see these crazy things on Instagram. Someone says when you pet your dog, it should be slow, low. No, when you pet your dog you should rub. I'm guessing doesn't matter. It's the energy behind it.
- [144:01]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [144:02]
Andrew Huberman
I mean, you obviously don't want to push against the fur, but somebody was saying, you know, all. All people are, like, petting their dog too fast. They don't like that. Is this just people making stuff up?
- [144:10]
Cesar Millan
Look, so if a dog is doing agility and the dog is, like, excited because he's doing agility, pet him hard, pet him fast, because you want him like that. But if you want the dog to be in a restaurant, pet himself. So it's dependent what you want the mind to feel heal. You see what I mean? You don't want to pet fast in a restaurant, you know, and slow and agility. So it's. It's not. The action is. What are you petting?
- [144:35]
Andrew Huberman
Makes total sense. Makes total sense. I mean, a soft, calm, you know,
- [144:40]
Cesar Millan
calm restaurant means calm. Agility means go for it. Good job. Yeah, right? It's like what FIFA is doing right now. All the. Everybody's excited.
- [144:50]
Andrew Huberman
He's like, you serious with barking? I learned from your book. Like, if Costell or when he was a puppy, he. He could let it out.
- [145:00]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [145:01]
Andrew Huberman
And the temptation is to say no. But why would you shout back to a dog that's vocalizing? So I would just walk away. And then when he was quiet, I'd come back.
- [145:11]
Cesar Millan
There you go.
- [145:12]
Andrew Huberman
And then pretty soon he realized nobody wants to be around a barking door dog. And somehow he knew instinctually that if there was a threat or someone, you know, he sensed a threat. A bark. He only would bark once. He had this. I mean, he had this, like. I mean, man, his. He was a beautiful specimen, I have to say. He was just so beautiful. But his barks were like a bass drum. But it was one. And then we just. But he would never just sit there and bark. I think a lot of people, their dog barks and they talk to their dog. So presumably, right, the dog is barking because that's what gets them some sort of feedback attention.
- [145:48]
Cesar Millan
That's right.
- [145:49]
Andrew Huberman
Or.
- [145:49]
Cesar Millan
Or the dog is also his only way to drain energy. Right. Like when my dog obsessively bark. How often do you walk? Once a week, twice a week, or whatever.
- [145:59]
Andrew Huberman
So.
- [145:59]
Cesar Millan
So the barking becomes a way of draining energy or like destroying your house, you know, Destructive behavior. Why would a dog destroy when he sleep? Well, because he doesn't do much with his body and his mind, so he has to drain that energy. And that's what we call destructive behavior. But people don't understand that we are not. We're in a way, practicing destructive behavior by not Doing what we supposed to be doing, which is walking the dog every single day. The moment they wake up in the morning, they stretch. The second thing they want to do is walk.
- [146:28]
Andrew Huberman
Should you wait for your dog to get up? What if you have to go to work? Should you force your dog to wake up and walk?
- [146:32]
Cesar Millan
I certainly would. They're daytime animals. So the biologist definitely, as soon as they, the sun comes up, they, they should go. You know, they should go.
- [146:41]
Andrew Huberman
This is what we do with Strummer. Even though bulldog, I mean, they'll sleep till 10am but we, we have to work.
- [146:48]
Cesar Millan
So we take them out, take care of it. It's easier. It's actually better, right? Because it is like I gotta. But then you drain the energy quicker. Yeah, it's way better because you want them to stay waiting for you in a resting state. So it's five body motions the animals do. They stretch as soon as they wake up. Right. Walk, run, rest, sleep. So a lot of times when you don't walk the dog or run the dog and you want the dog to wait for you, he can't go into a resting state. You see it. So it's very important that we follow the five body motions because every single animal, as soon as they wake up, they stretch, the bird flies. Right. And the dog walks. And the rest of the animals, the water animals, they swim. Right. So there is a formula that they have. So we want them to wait for us. We have to leave them in a resting state and they just. That's the meaning of waiting state. That's it. Right. But they can't wait or rest if the body and the mind has not been drained. And another, another reason why the walk is so important, because the walk is, is the only activity from Play and explore that gives them calm surrender. Play and explore gives them an excited energy.
- [147:58]
Andrew Huberman
Do you recommend walking them on the same path? Novel path, giving them new in the beginning, yes.
- [148:04]
Cesar Millan
Then the same path is important. They create, you know, trust to the environment. But once they, they, they know it very well, you have to change it. Yeah. And, and you don't have to change like even going in a different direction. You can just come outside and put food in the floor and tempt the dog to want to smell and correct them. So that creates a challenge. Challenge. You see it. So you learn to ignore food in the floor and you see it. So you start creating your own Universal Studios. So your whole house or your whole environment becomes your own dog psychology center where you're challenging your dog, you know, to, to not get bored because they learn a pattern really fast, and once they learn it, there is no growth. So then. Then the mind gets also frustrated, bored, or confused because there's no growth.
- [148:49]
Andrew Huberman
I love it. I trained Strummer to run on the treadmill. Yeah. For little rewards here and there, intermittent reinforcement. And he loves it. He runs now. He jumps on. He gets on that thing.
- [148:58]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [148:59]
Andrew Huberman
It never occurred to me to do this, but I realized that we're in California. It doesn't rain too often, but even when it rains, I want to have something where I can get his energy out. If there's fires again, I want to be outside. Anyway, so glad to hear that the treadmill is okay.
- [149:13]
Cesar Millan
You know the first treadmill I saw. Remember the show the Jetsons?
- [149:16]
Andrew Huberman
Yeah. With Astro Jetson.
- [149:19]
Cesar Millan
Yeah. Yeah. That was the first dog I ever seen on a treadmill. And I was a kid then I come to America and I see a whole bunch of treadmills, you know, and in people's garage, and I say, did you ever put your dog in a treadmill? I said, no. Can you put a dog in the treadmill? I learned that by watching the Jetsons.
- [149:33]
Andrew Huberman
Oh, very cool.
- [149:34]
Cesar Millan
Then I came and practiced it in America because people just had the treadmill, but they were not using it.
- [149:39]
Andrew Huberman
Wow.
- [149:40]
Cesar Millan
You know, so that's when I started putting dogs on the treadmill, and people were just fascinated. But I said, listen, this is not for you to stay lazy. Right. This is just for a miracle, emergencies. Okay. And for you to challenge the mind. And. And, you know, and that's it. But it's not. It's not. So you don't walk.
- [149:58]
Andrew Huberman
Yeah. I do a walk with him, then bring him back, and then if he still has a lot of energy and I have to go. I get him going fast on an incline.
- [150:05]
Cesar Millan
Yep.
- [150:06]
Andrew Huberman
Get him right to his threshold and then play with it a little bit.
- [150:08]
Cesar Millan
That's correct.
- [150:09]
Andrew Huberman
We're done. Like, we. I've been trying to share this thing with him. Like, we. This is our thing. And now he. He loves the treadmill. He will be dying to get on the treadmill.
- [150:16]
Cesar Millan
So if people become more like personal trainers, they will challenge the dogs a lot more like a personal trainer. You see it? So they will be able to, you know, challenge the mind and challenge the body. Challenge the mind. Challenge the body as a personal trainer.
- [150:28]
Andrew Huberman
Right.
- [150:28]
Cesar Millan
And. But. But people don't do it, you know, they don't do this other titles. Right. I just want to be a dog lover or the mom of this dog or the father of this Dog.
- [150:38]
Andrew Huberman
Yeah.
- [150:39]
Cesar Millan
You can also be a coach. You can also be a religious coach, you know what I mean? Spiritual coach, intellectual coach. I mean, don't forget there is four worlds. It's not just the emotional world. And that's the only one you want to practice because that's the easiest one. Right? To love a dog is so easy, you know, to challenge him, you know, spiritually and instinctually and intellectually, that's. It requires creativity.
- [151:04]
Andrew Huberman
Yeah, that's a great relationship.
- [151:05]
Cesar Millan
Yeah, it's awesome. It's good for you. Yeah. Because if the dog is doing great, that means you did great. So it's a reflection of you. Right. The dog is a reflection of you. Your energy, your philosophy, your actions. So every time you work out with a dog, you're working out with yourself. It's just in a natural, simple, profound way. That's it, you know, which is about trust, respect, love, safe peace, love, body, mind, heart, just simple stuff. Right. And that creates the off leash that, that is, you know, the ultimate we should all accomplish and you shouldn't pay for for it. Right. I'm not trying to get my, you know, colleagues, the dog trainers, not to get jobs, but it's, it's, it's kind of silly that you hire somebody to teach your dog off leash. You earn that. That's something we have to earn. It's good for us to earn, you know, that, that trust, that respect, that love. It's good, it's, it's a good exercise, a good workout. That means you use your spiritual instinct, your heart and your mind every single day of life. That's why that dog behaves that way. You see it, they keep you on track just to live a natural, simple, profound life. And when you're having a hard time in life, that's where you want to go to your natural, simple, profound, you know, never let this one go. So to have a good relationship with a dog is automatically let you have a good relationship with God. They're together, we're the only one that separates them. We're the only one that separates everything to create chaos.
- [152:30]
Andrew Huberman
Yes, we make a lot of things up. What I'm hearing today over and over is that if you obey the spirit, you obey the instincts, ours and these animals, dogs in this case, and you put that first. Then all the other stuff about bed, not bad, pet, not pet, like all the other stuff falls into place. But it's a moment to moment thing. It's a daily thing. There isn't a, well, I love my dog, it loves me. That's a story that's partially true. True. But there's actually, if I editorialize a little bit, there's. There's actually a fair amount of abuse of the animal in that situation. It's very self serving. There's abuse of the animal. Yeah. But when we align all those things and we start from spirit.
- [153:15]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [153:16]
Andrew Huberman
It all kind of falls into place.
- [153:19]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [153:19]
Andrew Huberman
But we have to be vigilant and we have to basically train ourselves. Yeah. This is all about training ourselves.
- [153:24]
Cesar Millan
That's why I train humans, rehabilitate dogs. That's. That's my job. I train humans, rehabilitate dogs. You don't have to have a dog to talk to me because, you know, learning how to be with a dog is learning how to be in life, period. Right. It's good for you to be a pack member, A good pack member at home. You need to know what is your position and just be, Contribute to the family. Right. And bring good energy, good philosophy, good action. Even if you're in the back of the pack or the middle of the pack, at the front of the pack. It's not only the front of the pack fact it has to have good energy is because he's in that position, he has to be the fittest. Right. Fittest. Not only physically, but spiritually, spinually, emotionally and mentally, you know, with the body to, to take care of all those four energies. Right. So otherwise it doesn't matter what position you are in the pack. Bring good energy, good philosophy, good actions. Right. And one way that you can achieve this every single day is having a great relationship with everybody, dog. It just makes you a good human. Everybody wins that way. It's not about training the dog. It's about training the human to be a good human. Right. And then that human is going to have good everything because that's what his energy and philosophy and actions are all about. So imagine if the world is led by good humans.
- [154:43]
Andrew Huberman
Yeah. That's a beautiful image. Yeah. Well, Caesar, I, I am immensely grateful for you coming here today.
- [154:51]
Cesar Millan
Thank you.
- [154:52]
Andrew Huberman
You are incredibly knowledgeable, incredibly wise. Your. Your energy is tangible from the moment somebody meets you. It's a real thing. I, I can say that having experienced it in the room, I'm sure people listening are hearing it and feeling it as well. You also have an incredible relationship to the, the spiritual of animals and humans and, and a real. What I hear as a wish for humanity and for animals and your relationship to the things that are timeless.
- [155:21]
Cesar Millan
Yeah.
- [155:22]
Andrew Huberman
The past, the present, what happens next. It's, it's really incredible. I said it before, I'll say it again three different ways for the multi generational purpose of it. You're the man. You're also incredibly wise and you're a virtuoso of bringing together information in practical ways that people can not just learn how to take care of their dog and themselves better, but as you pointed out, be a better human. So you're a special one. Thank you so much.
- [155:49]
Cesar Millan
Thank you.
- [155:50]
Andrew Huberman
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Cesar Millan. To learn more about his work, please see the links in the show. Note Caption if you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero cost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the Follow button on both Spotify and App Apple and on both Spotify and Apple you can leave us up to a five star review and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast. If you have questions for me or comments about the podcasts or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my very first first book. It's entitled Protocols An Operating Manual for the Human Body. This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience. And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by pre sale@protographsbook.com there you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called Protocols An Operating Manual for the Human Body. And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. So that's Instagram, X threads, Facebook and LinkedIn. And on all those platforms I discuss science and science related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast. Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure. We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training. All of that is available completely zero cost. You Simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter and enter your email. And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Cesar Millan. And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.