Sponsor Representative (6:23)

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. By now, many of you have heard me say that if I could take just one supplement, that supplement would be AG1. The reason for that is AG1 is the highest quality and most complete of the foundational nutritional supplements available. What that means is that it contains not just vitamins and minerals, but also probiotics, prebiotics and adaptogens to cover any gaps you may have in your diet and provide support for a demanding life. For me, even if I eat mostly whole foods and minimally processed foods, which I do for most of my food intake, it's very difficult for me to get enough fruits and vegetables, vitamins and minerals, micronutrients and adaptogens from food alone. For that reason, I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012. When I do that, it clearly bolsters my energy, my immune system, and my gut microbiome. These are all critical to brain function, mood, physical performance, and much more. If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.comhuberman to claim their special offer. Right now they're giving away five free travel packs plus a year's supply of vitamin D3K2. Again, that's drinkag1.com Huberman to claim that special offer.

Andrew Huberman (7:30)

In addition, slow wave sleep has been shown to be important for the learning of detailed information. So we can think of slow wave sleep as important for motor learning, motor skill learning, and for the learning of specific details about specific events. And this turns out to be fundamentally important because now we know that slow wave sleep is primarily in the early part of the night and motor learning is occurring primarily early in the night and detail learning is occurring early in the night. I want to talk about REM sleep or rapid eye movement sleep. REM sleep and rapid eye movement sleep, as I mentioned before, occurs throughout the night, but you're going to have more of it. A larger percentage of these 90 minute sleep cycles is going to be comprised of REM sleep as you get toward morning. REM sleep is fascinating. It was discovered in the 50s when sleep laboratory in Chicago, the researchers observed that people's eyes were moving under their eyelids. Now something very important that we're going to address when we talk about trauma later is that the eye movements are not just side to side, they're very erratic in all different directions. One thing that I don't think anyone, I've never heard anyone really talk about publicly is why eye movements during sleep, eyes are closed and sometimes people's eyelids will be a little bit open and their eyes are darting around, especially in little kids. I don't suggest you do this. I'm not even sure it's ethical, but it has been done where you pull back the eyelids of a kid while they're sleeping and their eyes are kind of darting all over the place. Rapid eye movement sleep is fascinating and occurs because there are connections between, between the brainstem, an area called the pons, and areas of the thalamus and the top of the brainstem that are involved in generating movements in different directions, sometimes called saccades. Although sometimes during rapid eye movement sleep, it's not just rapid, it's kind of a jittery side to side thing. And then the eyeballs kind of roll. It's really pretty creepy to look at. If you see so what's happening there is the circuitry that is involved in conscious eye movements is kind of going haywire. But it's not haywire. It's these waves of activity from the brain stem up to the so called thalamus, which is an area that filters sensory information and then up to the cortex. And the cortex of course is involved in conscious perceptions. In REM sleep, serotonin is essentially absent. Okay, so this molecule, this neuromodulator that tends to create the feeling of bliss and well being and just calm placidity is absent. In addition to that, norepinephrine, this molecule that's involved in movement and alertness, is absolutely absent. It's probably one of the few times in our life that epinephrine is essentially at zero activity within our system. And that has a number of very important implications for the sorts of dreaming that occur during REM sleep and the sorts of learning that can occur in REM sleep and unlearning. First of all, in REM sleep, we are paralyzed. We are. We are experiencing what's called atonia, which just means that we're completely laid out and paralyzed. We also tend to experience whatever it is that we're dreaming about as a kind of hallucination or a hallucinatory activity. So in rem, our eyes are moving, but the rest of our body is paralyzed and we are hallucinating. There's no epinephrine around. Epinephrine doesn't just create a desire to move and alertness. It is also the chemical signature of fear and anxiety. It's what's released from our adrenal glands when we experience something that's fearful or alerting. So if a car suddenly screeches in front of us or we get a troubling text message, adrenaline is deployed into our system. Adrenaline is epinephrine. Those are equivalent molecules. And epinephrine isn't just released from our adrenals, it's also released within our brain. So there's this weird stage of our life that happens more toward morning that we call REM sleep, where we're hallucinating and having these outrageous experiences in our mind. But the chemical that's associated with fear and panic and anxiety is not available to us. And that turns out to be very important. And you can imagine why that's important. It's important because it allows, allows us to experience things, both replay of things that did occur, as well as elaborate contortions of things that didn't occur. And it allows us to experience those in the absence of fear and anxiety. So we have this incredible period of sleep in which our experience of emotionally laden events is dissociated. It's chemically blocked from us having the actual emotion. So to just recap where we've gone so far, slow wave sleep early in the night, it's been shown to be important for motor learning and for detailed learning. REM sleep has a certain dream component in which there's no epinephrine Therefore we can't experience anxiety. We are paralyzed. Those dreams tend to be really vivid and have a lot of detail to them. And yet in REM sleep what's very clear is that the sorts of learning that happen in REM sleep are not motor events. It's more about unlearning of emotional events. And now we know why. Because the chemicals available for really feeling those emotions are not present. Now that has very important implications. So let's address those implications from two sides. First of all, we should ask what happens if we don't get enough REM sleep? And a scenario that happens a lot where people don't get enough REM sleep is the following. I'll just explain the one that I'm familiar with because it happens to me a lot. Although I've figured out ways to adjust. I go to sleep around 10:30, 11:00, I fall asleep very easily and then I wake up around 3 or 4am I now know to use a NSDR, a non sleep deep breath protocol. And that allows me to fall back asleep. Even though it's called non sleep deep rest. It's really allows me to relax my body and brain. And I tend to fall back asleep and sleep till about 7am during which time I get a lot of REM sleep. And I know this because I've measured it. And I know this because my dreams tend to be very intense of the sort that we know is typical of REM sleep in this scenario. I've gotten my slow wave sleep early in the night and I've got my REM sleep toward morning. However, there are times when I don't go back to sleep. Maybe I have a flight to catch that's happened sometimes. I've got a lot on my mind and I don't go back to sleep. I can tell you, and you've probably experienced, that the lack of REM sleep tends to make people emotionally irritable. It tends to make us feel as if the little things are the big things. So it's very clear from laboratory studies where people have been deprived selectively of REM sleep that our emotionality tends to get a little bit unhinged and we tend to catastrophize small things. We tend to feel like the world is really daunting. We're never going to move forward in the ways that we want. We can't unlearn the emotional components of whatever it is that's been happening, even if it's not traumatic. The other thing that happens in REM sleep is A replay of certain types of spatial information about where we were and why we were in those places. And this maps to some beautiful data and studies that were initiated by a guy named Matt Wilson at MIT years ago, showing that in rodents, and it turns out, in other non human primates, and in humans, there's a replay of spatial information during REM sleep that almost precisely maps to the activity that we experience during the day as we move from one place to another. So here's a common world scenario. You go to a new place, you navigate through that city or that environment. This place doesn't have to be at the scale of a city. It can be a new building. It could be finding particular rooms, new social interaction. You experience that, and if it's important enough, that becomes solidified a few days later and you won't forget it. If it's unimportant, you'll probably forget it. During REM sleep, there's a literal replay of the exact firing of the neurons that occurred while you were navigating that same city you're building earlier. So REM sleep seems to be involved in the generation of this detailed spatial information. But what is it that's actually happening in REM sleep? So there's this uncoupling of emotion. But most of all, what's happening in REM sleep is that we're forming a relationship with particular rules or algorithms. We're starting to figure out, based on all the experience that we had during the day, whether or not it's important that we avoid certain people or that we approach certain people, whether or not it's important that, you know, when we enter a building, that we go into the elevator and turn left, where the bathroom is, for instance, these general themes of things and locations and how they fit together. And that has a word, it's called meaning. During our day, we're experiencing all sorts of things. Meaning is how we each individually piece together the relevance of one thing to the next. Right? So if I suddenly told you that, you know, this pen was downloading all the information to my brain that was important, important to deliver this information, you'd probably think I was a pretty strange character. Because typically we don't think of pens as downloading information into brains, but if I told you that I was getting information from my computer that was allowing me to say things to you, you'd say, well, that's perfectly reasonable. And that's because we have a clear and agreed upon association with computers and information and memory, and we don't have that same association with pens, you might say, well, duh. But something in our brain needs to solidify those relationships and make sure that the certain relationships don't exist. And it appears that REM sleep is important for that, because when you deprive yourself or people of rem, they start seeing odd associations. And we know that if people are deprived of REM sleep for very long periods of time, they start hallucinating. They literally start seeing relationships and movement of objects that isn't happening. And so REM sleep is really where we establish the emotional load, but where we also start discarding of all the meanings that are irrelevant. And if you think about emotionality, a lot of over emotionality or catastrophizing is about seeing problems everywhere. It's very important in order to have healthy emotional and cognitive functioning that we have fairly narrow channels between individual things. If we see something on the news that's very troubling, well, then it makes sense to be very troubled. But if we're troubled by everything and we start just saying everything is bothering me and I'm feeling highly irritable and everything is just distorting and troubling me, chances are we are not actively removing the meaning, the connectivity between life experiences as well as we could. And that almost always maps back to a deficit in REM sleep.

Sponsor Representative (18:54)

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor joovv JOOVV makes medical grade red light therapy devices. Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, it's the incredible impact that light can have on our biology. Now, in addition to sunlight, red light and near infrared light have been shown to have positive effects on improving numerous.

Andrew Huberman (19:13)

Aspects of cellular and organ health, including.

Sponsor Representative (19:16)

Faster muscle recovery, improved skin health and wound healing, improvements in acne, meaning reductions in acne reduced pain and inflammation, improved mitochondrial function, and even improving visual function itself. What sets JOOVV lights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning specific wavelengths of red light and near infrared light in specific combinations to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations. Personally, I use the JOOVV Whole Body panel about three to four times per week, typically in the morning, but sometimes in the afternoon. And I use the JOOVV handheld light both at home and when I travel. If you'd like to try Joovv, you can go to Joovv spelled J-O-O-V-V.com Huberman Joovv is offering an exclusive discount to all Huberman Lab listeners with up to $400 off select Joovv products. Again, that's Joovv j o v.com Huberman to get up to $400 off.

Andrew Huberman (20:08)

So rem sleep seems to be where we uncouple the potential for emotionality between various experiences. And that brings us to the absolutely fundamental relationship and similarity of REM sleep to some of the clinical practices that have been designed to eliminate emotionality and help people move through trauma and other troubling experiences. Many of you perhaps have heard of trauma treatments such as emdr, eye movement desensitization reprocessing, or ketamine treatment for trauma, something that recently became legal and is in fairly widespread clinical use. Interestingly enough, EMDR and ketamine at kind of a core level bear very similar features to REM sleep. So let's talk about EMDR first. EMDR eye movement desensitization reprocessing is something that was developed by a psychologist, Francine Shapiro. She actually was in Palo Alto, and the story goes that she was walking, not so incidentally, in the trees and forests behind Stanford, and she was recalling a troubling event in her own mind. So this would be from her own life. And she realized that as she was walking, the emotional load of that experience was not as intense or severe. She extrapolated from that experience of walking and not feeling as stressed about the stressful event to a practice that she put into work with her clients, with her patients, and that now has become fairly widespread. It's actually one of the few behaviorally, the behavior treatments that are approved by the American Psychological association for the treatment of trauma. What she had her clients and patients do was move their eyes from side to side while recounting some traumatic or troubling event. Why eye movements? Well, she never really said why eye movements, but soon I'll tell you why. The decision to select these lateralized eye movements for the work in the clinic was the right one. So these eye movements, they look silly, but they basically involve sitting in a chair and moving one's eyes from side to side for 30, 60 seconds, then describing this challenging procedure. Now, as a vision scientist who also works on stress, when I first heard this, I thought it was crazy. Frankly, people would ask me about emdr, and I just thought, that's crazy. I went and looked up some of the theories about why EMDR might work, and there were a bunch of theories. Oh, it mimics the eye movements during REM sleep. That was one. Turns out that's not true. And I'll explain why. The other one was, oh, it synchronizes the activity on the two sides of the brain. Well, sort of. I mean, when you look into both sides of the binocular visual field, you activate the visual cortex. But this whole idea of synchrony between the two sides of the brain is something that I think modern neuroscience is starting to, let's just say gently or not so gently, move away from this whole right brain, left brain business. It turns out, however, that eye movements of the sort that I just did and that Francine Shapiro took from this walk experience and brought to the her clients in the clinic are the sorts of eye movements that you generate whenever you're moving through space, when you are self generating that movement. So not so much when you're driving a car, but certainly if you were riding a bicycle or you were walking or you were running, you don't realize it, but you have these reflexive, subconscious eye movements that go from side to side and they are associated with the motor system. So when you move forward, your eyes go like this. There have been a number of studies showing that these lateralized eye movements helped people move through or dissociate the emotional experience of particular traumas with those experiences, such that they could recall those experiences after the treatment and not feel stressed about them, or they didn't report them as traumatic any longer. Now, the success rate wasn't 100%, but they were statistically significant. In a number of studies in the last five years, there have been no fewer than five journals and papers showing that lateralized eye movements of the sort that I just did. And if you're just listening to this, it's just sweep that, moving the eyes from side to side with eyes open. That those eye movements, but not vertical eye movements, suppress the activity of the amygdala, which is this brain region that is involved in threat detection, stress, anxiety, and fear. There are some forms of fear that are not amygdala dependent, but the amygdala, it's not a fear center, but it is critical for the fear response and for the experience of anxiety. So that's interesting. We've got a clinical tool now that indeed shows a lot of success in a good number of people where eye movements from side to side are suppressing the amygdala. And the general theme is to use those eye movements to suppress the fear response and then to recount or repeat the experience and over time uncouple the heavy emotional load, the sadness, the depression, the anxiety, the fear from whatever it was that happened that was traumatic. This is important to understand because, you know, I'd love to be able to tell somebody who had a traumatic experience that they would forget that experience. But the truth is you never forget the traumatic experience. What you do is you remove the emotional load. Eventually it really does lose its potency. The emotional potency is alleviated. Now, emdr, I should just mention, tends to be most successful for single event or very specific kinds of trauma that happen over and over, as opposed to, say, an entire childhood or an entire divorce. They tend to be. It tends to be most effective for single event kinds of things, car crashes, etc, where people can really recall the events in quite a lot of detail. It's not for everybody and it should be done. If it's going to be done for trauma, it should be done in a clinical setting with somebody who's certified to do this. But that bears a lot of resemblance to REM sleep, right? This experience in our sleep where our eyes are moving, excuse me, although in a different way. But we don't have the chemical epinephrine in order to generate the fear response, and yet we're remembering the event from the previous day or days. And then now there's this chemical treatment with the drug ketamine, which also bears a lot of resemblance to the sorts of things that happen in REM sleep. Ketamine is a dissociative anesthetic. It is remarkably similar to the drug called pcp, which is certainly a hazardous drug for people to use. Ketamine and PCP both function to disrupt the activity of a particular receptor in the brain called the NMDA receptor. N methyl D aspartate receptor. This is a receptor that's in the surface of neurons or on the surface of neurons for which most of the time it's not active. But when something very extreme happens and there's a lot of activity in the neural pathway that impinges on that receptor. It opens and it allows the entry of molecules, ions that trigger a cellular process that we call long term potentiation. And long term potentiation translates to a change in connectivity so that later you don't need that intense event for the neuron to become active again. Ketamine blocks this NMDA receptor. So how is ketamine being used? Ketamine is being used to prevent learning of emotions very soon after trauma. Ketamine is being stocked in a number of different emergency rooms where if people are brought in quickly and, you know, these are hard to describe even, but, you know, a horrible experience of, you know, somebody seeing a loved one next to them killed in a car accident and they were driving that car. This isn't for everybody, certainly, and you need to talk to your physician. But ketamine is being used so they might infuse somebody with ketamine so that their emotion is. It can still occur, but that the, that the plasticity, the change in the wiring of their brain won't allow that intense emotion to be attached to the experience. Now, immediately you can imagine the sort of ethical implications of this, right? Because certain emotions need to be coupled to experiences. But in the clinical setting, the basis of ketamine assisted therapies is really to remove emotion. Ketamine is about becoming dissociative or removed from the emotional component of experience. So now we have ketamine, which chemically blocks plasticity and prevents the, the connection between an emotion and an experience. That's a pharmacologic intervention. We have emdr, which is this eye movement thing that is designed to suppress the amygdala and is designed to remove emotionality while somebody recounts an experience. And we have REM sleep, where the chemical epinephrine that allows for signaling of intense emotion and the experience of intense emotion in the brain and body is not allowed. And so we're starting to see a organizational logic which is that a certain component of our sleeping life is acting like therapy. And that's really what REM sleep is about.

Sponsor Representative (29:52)

I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor, eight Sleep. Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating and sleep tracking capacity. Now, I've spoken before on this podcast about the critical need for us to get adequate amounts of quality sleep each night. Now, one of the best ways to.

Andrew Huberman (30:06)

Ensure a great night's sleep is to.

Sponsor Representative (30:08)

Ensure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct. And that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about 1 to 3 degrees. And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase about 1 to 3 degrees. 8 Sleep makes it very easy to control the temperature of your sleeping environment by allowing you to program the temperature of your mattress cover at the beginning, middle and end of the night. I've been sleeping on an eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly four years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep. Eight Sleep recently launched their newest generation of the pod cover called the Pod 4 Ultra. The Pod 4 Ultra has improved cooling and heating capacity.

Andrew Huberman (30:48)

I find that very useful because I.

Sponsor Representative (30:50)

Like to make the bed really cool at the beginning of the night, even colder in the middle of the night and warm as I wake up. That's what gives me the most slow wave sleep and rapid eye movement sleep. It also has snoring detection that will automatically lift your head a few degrees to improve your airflow and stop your snoring. If you'd like to try an Eight Sleep mattress cover, go to eightsleep.com huberman to save up to $350 off their pod 4 Ultra Eight Sleep currently ships in the USA, Canada, UK, select countries in the EU and Australia. Again, that's eightsleep.com huberMan we should really.

Andrew Huberman (31:24)

Think about REM sleep and slow wave sleep as both critical slow wave sleep for motor learning and detailed learning. REM sleep for attaching of emotions to particular experiences and then for making sure that the emotions are not attached to the wrong experiences, and for unlearning emotional responses if they're too intense or severe. And this all speaks to the great importance of mastering one's sleep, something that we talked about in episode two of the podcast and and making sure that if life has disruptive events either due to travel or stress or changes in school or food schedule, something that we talked about in episodes three and four, that one can still grab ahold and manage one's sleep life because fundamentally the unlearning of emotions that are troubling to us is what allows us to move forward in life. And indeed the REM deprivation studies show that people become hyper emotional, they start to catastrophize, and it's no surprise therefore that sleep disturbances correlate with so many emotional and psychological disturbances. By now it should just be obvious why that would be the case. I was in a discussion with a colleague of mine who's down in Australia, Dr. Sarah McKay. I've known her for two decades now, from the time she was at Oxford. And Sarah studies, among other things, menopause in the brain. And she was saying that a lot of the emotional effects of menopause actually are not directly related to the hormones. There have been some really nice studies showing that the disruptions in temperature regulation in menopause map to changes in sleep regulation that then impact emotionality and inability to correctly adjust the circuits related to emotionality. So sleep deprivation isn't just deprivation of energy, it's not just deprivation of immune function, it is deprivation of self induced therapy every time we go to sleep. So these things like EMDR and ketamine therapies are in clinic therapies, but REM sleep is the one that you are giving yourself every night when you go to sleep. Which raises, I think, the other important question, which is how to get and how to know if you're getting the appropriate amount of REM sleep and slow wave sleep. Turns out that for sake of learning new information, limiting the variation in the amount of your sleep is at least as important and perhaps more important than just getting more sleep. Overall, I find great relief personally in the fact that consistently getting, for me, about six hours or six and a half hours is going to be more beneficial than constantly striving for eight or nine and finding that some nights I'm getting five and sometimes I'm getting nine and varying around the mean. Now, ideally, you're getting the full complement of slow wave sleep early in night and sleep toward morning, which is REM sleep. Which brings us to how to get more REM sleep. Well, there are a couple different ways, but here's how to not get more REM sleep. All right, first of all, drink a lot of fluid right before going to sleep. One of the reasons why we wake up in the middle of the night to use the bathroom is because when our bladder is full, there is a neural connection, literally a set of neurons and a nerve circuit that goes to the brainstem that wakes us up. So having a full bladder is one way to disrupt your sleep. The other one is tryptophan or anything that contains 5 HTP, which is serotonin or a precursor to serotonin. Serotonin is made from tryptophan. For some people, those supplements might work. But beware, serotonin supplements could disrupt the timing of REM sleep and slow wave sleep. Now, if you want to increase your slow wave sleep, that's interesting, there are ways to do that. One of the most powerful ways to increase slow wave sleep, the percentage of slow wave sleep sleep, apparently without any disruption to the other components of sleep and learning, is to engage in resistance exercise. It's pretty clear that resistance exercise triggers a number of metabolic and endocrine pathways that lend themselves to release of growth hormone, which happens early in the night. And resistance exercise therefore can induce a greater percentage of slow wave sleep. It doesn't have to be done very close to going to bedtime. In fact, for some people, that the exercise could be disruptive for reasons I've talked about in previous episodes. But resistance exercise, unlike aerobic exercise, does seem to increase the amount of slow wave sleep, which as we know, is involved in motor learning and the acquisition of fine, detailed information, not general rules or the emotional components of experiences. Alcohol, alcohol and Marijuana are well known to induce states that are pseudo sleep. Like especially when people fall asleep while after having consumed alcohol or thc, the active component. One of the active components in marijuana, alcohol, THC and most things like them, meaning things that increase serotonin or gaba, are going to disrupt the pattern of sleep. They're going to disrupt the depth, they're going to disrupt the overall sequencing of more slow wave sleep early in the night and more REM sleep later in the night. That's just the reality now, of course, if that's what you need in order to sleep, and that's within your protocol, as I've said here before, I'm not suggesting people take anything. I'm not a medical doctor, I'm not a cop, so I'm not trying to regulate anyone's behavior. I'm just telling you what the literature says. Today we've been in a deep dive of sleep and dreaming, learning and unlearning. And I just want to recap a few of the highlights and important points. A lot more slow wave sleep and less REM early in the night, more REM and less slow wave sleep later in the night. REM sleep is associated with intense experiences without this chemical epinephrine that allows us the anxiety or fear and almost certainly has an important role in uncoupling of emotion from experiences. Kind of self induced therapy that we go into each night that bears striking resemblance to things like EMDR and ketamine therapies and so forth. Slow wave sleep is critical, however, it's critical mostly for motor learning and the learning of specific details. So REM is kind of emotions and general themes and meaning and slow wave sleep, motor learning and details. I personally find it fascinating that consistency of sleep, meaning getting six hours every night is better than getting 10. One night, eight the next, five, the next, four the next. I find that fascinating and I think I also like it because it's something I can control better than just trying to sleep more, which I think I'm not alone in agreeing that that's just hard for a lot of people to do. Thank you for joining me in this journey of the nervous system and biology and trying to understand the mechanisms that make us who we are and how we function in sleep and in wakefulness. It's really an incredible landscape to consider and I hope that you're getting a lot out of the information. As always, thank you for your interest in science.