Podcast
Humans of Martech
Hosted by Phil Gamache · EN
Future-proofing the humans behind the tech. Follow Phil Gamache and Darrell Alfonso on their mission to help future-proof the humans behind the tech and have successful careers in the constantly expanding universe of martech.
33episodes
Episodes
Newest firstAll episodes
222: Ashley Langford: How Senior MOps Practitioners Are Navigating the 2026 Job Search
4d ago01:05:14Tap to summarizeWhat's up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Ashley Langford, Marketing Operations and RevOps Leader.Summary: Ashley Langford has every credential the MOps job search advice says you're supposed to have: 2 Marketo Champion designations, a decade of B2B SaaS experience across multiple industries, a strong community presence, and a track record of building functions from scratch. She's still getting auto-rejected within minutes and ghosted by companies she was genuinely excited about. In this episode, she breaks down what the MOps job search actually looks like in 2026 from the inside, including how she uses Claude to build an interview packet before every meeting, why she has a hard line against unpaid take-home projects, and how the director-level search carries friction points that most job search content ignores entirely. She also says something most practitioners won't say out loud: she realized she was performing confidence instead of having it. If you're in a search right now, or know someone who is, this one is worth your full attention.About Ashley LangfordAshley Langford is a Director of Marketing Operations and 2-time Marketo Champion who has built and led MOps functions from scratch across B2B SaaS companies including LastPass, Integrate, HackerRank, GreenSky, and Waystar. Her work spans fintech, insurance, biotech, and HR technology, with deep expertise in Marketo, Salesforce, 6sense, and Looker. Adobe's Marketo Champion program selects around 40 practitioners globally each year; Ashley has earned the designation twice, in 2020 and 2023, and is also a Marketo Revvie Award Finalist.What Nobody Warns You About When You Get Laid OffThe shame of a layoff hits in a specific, quiet way that almost nobody includes in the public job search conversation. It doesn't look like despair. It doesn't stop you from applying, updating the resume, or showing up to the networking calls. It just tilts you. You overexplain the layoff in interviews. You hedge when confidence is what the moment requires. You walk in grateful to be considered instead of knowing what you're worth.Ashley Langford is 4 months into a search that should, by any rational measure, be going better. She has 2 Marketo Champion designations, a decade of track record across multiple industries, and genuine community presence. Her time at LastPass ended in a layoff that was clearly business-driven following the company's public turbulence. None of that insulated her from the quiet voice that arrives anyway.She didn't recognize it immediately. It took a few conversations before she saw what was happening. "I was performing confidence instead of actually having it," she says. For someone whose professional identity is built on expertise and results, that admission is uncomfortable. But naming it is where you start. You can't correct what you haven't acknowledged.The market doesn't help. Ashley has the credentials, the community ties, and the network. She's done what the standard job search advice prescribes. She's still getting auto-rejected within minutes and ghosted by companies she was genuinely excited about. "I haven't been ghosted this much since I was on Tinder like 12 years ago," she says. "At least then I knew why."The honest accounting: being well-credentialed matters inside the MOps community, where a Marketo Champion designation opens doors with people who know what it means. Outside that community, there are plenty of doors where it doesn't register. And the external recruiter pipeline, which used to generate steady inbound interest for practitioners at her level, has gone almost completely quiet. That drought is a real signal about what's happening in this market. The job posting numbers don't capture it.The practitioners who move through a senior search with the most clarity tend to be the ones who name what they're carrying early. The public-facing posture, excited about what's next, lots of great conversations, is one layer. The private reality of a Wednesday afternoon is another. Closing that gap starts with honesty about the performance, not just the tactics.Key takeaway: Name the performance gap before your search does it for you. After your next interview, write down 1 moment where you hedged, over-explained, or undersold your work. Identify the specific claim you avoided making. Draft the version with a number attached, and practice saying it without softening it until it sounds like your default.Where the MOps Job Search Actually Happens in 2026The job search advice is consistent about channels. LinkedIn, niche job boards, the hidden market through direct outreach and community presence, networking as a KPI. The framework is reasonable. What's harder to find is how it actually plays out for a practitioner with a specific profile in a specific market.Ashley's day starts on LinkedIn. New postings first, then the feed, because hiring managers sometimes announce open roles informally before they list them. From there: VC-backed job boards, which surface companies building fast. She's tried the Ashby job board search technique and found listings that hadn't appeared anywhere else. Greenhouse, the ATS platform, now has a cross-company search function that most people haven't found yet.After all of it, where are actual responses coming from? LinkedIn. The hidden job market is real and worth working. It's also producing less than the visible one right now. Anyone spending most of their search trying to unlock doors not listed on job boards while ignoring the platform still generating replies is optimizing against their own results.On conversations as the primary KPI, Ashley's take is more nuanced than the standard advice. She's gotten jobs through her network before. The approach works. But it requires having the kind of network that actually moves for you: people who will pick up the phone and make a call, not just say they'll keep an eye out. "The ratio depends on your network that you've actually built, not the one that you wish you have," she says.There's a structural wrinkle for MOps practitioners specifically. MOps people tend to be industry-agnostic, which is part of what makes the role valuable. Ashley has worked in fintech, insurance, biotech, and HR tech. That breadth is an asset in the market. It's also why her first-degree connections aren't concentrated in any one industry or company cluster. The broader the career path, the more spread out the network, and the harder it is to find someone who happens to know someone at the specific company hiring right now.The conversations-versus-applications question resolves the same way for most people: you need both. The ratio just depends on what you've actually built, and being honest about which bucket your network falls into before committing to a strategy built around the other one.Key takeaway: For 2 weeks, track which channel produces each actual response, not each application sent. If LinkedIn is generating replies and Ashby isn't, redistribute your time accordingly. Add the Greenhouse cross-company search to your daily routine and check it alongside LinkedIn. Both tools are free and most people haven't found the second one.What Hiring Managers Actually Look For in a MOps ResumeMost job seekers are guessing at what the other side of the table actually looks for. The tactical advice is everywhere: tailor your resume, use keywords from the JD, follow up with the recruiter. What's far less available is the hiring manager's actual perspective from someone who's done both in the same search.Ashley has built MOps teams. She's reviewed application stacks. She knows exactly what she skims past and what makes her stop. Now she's running that same lens on her own materials, which is a sharper fe...
Transcribe →
221: Jason Dobbs: You need Minimum Viable Readiness for AI because perfect data doesn't exist
2w ago00:56:36Tap to summarizeWhat's up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Jason Dobbs, Head of Marketing and GTM Engineering at Kumo AI.(00:00) - Intro (01:24) - In This Episode (01:57) - Sponsor: MoEngage (02:54) - Sponsor: Knak (04:35) - How Undefined Data Definitions Make AI Confidently Wrong (08:18) - Why Context Engineering Replaces Prompt Engineering as the AI Bottleneck (12:59) - The Five Non-Negotiables for AI Readiness in Marketing Ops (15:42) - Why Marketing Ops Is the Context Architect in an AI-First GTM Stack (24:50) - Which Data Problems Block AI Deployment and Which You Can Ignore (28:29) - Sponsor: GrowthLoop (29:32) - Sponsor: AttributionApp (34:24) - What Goes Wrong When Agentic AI Optimizes Directly on Warehouse Correlations (42:02) - When to Ship AI Before Your Data Is Ready and When to Fix the Foundation First (48:23) - What GTM Engineering Actually Means When AI Automates the Middle (50:55) - How Jason Dobbs Decides What Deserves His Energy (53:08) - What Jason Is Reading: Intelligence History, Mind-Opening Nonfiction, and Dune Summary: Jason Dobbs spent 7 years assembling intelligence briefings for the President, and he says most AI failures in martech are the same problem he was solving in 2003: teams acting on context they never actually agreed on. In this episode, he breaks down the 5 non-negotiables of minimum viable readiness before you deploy any AI agent, explains why the marketing ops function is becoming more critical as AI takes over execution, and argues that unbounded AI autonomy creates more risk than warehouse data ever will. He also defends GTM engineering as a real discipline rather than a rebrand, and closes with a Dune analogy that lands better than it has any right to. If you think AI readiness is primarily a data engineering problem, this episode will change how you think about your team's role in it.About Jason DobbsJason Dobbs is the Head of Marketing and GTM Engineering at Kumo AI, where he leads go-to-market for KumoRFM, the world's first relational foundation model, which generates accurate, explainable predictions directly from warehouse data. Before Kumo, he served as Global Head of Revenue Marketing at Logitech, where ABM and advanced segmentation drove 40% of B2B sales revenue and 79% YoY ARR growth. He also co-founded Trypp, an autonomous UX research agent for continuous post-ship product monitoring, and has held marketing and analytics leadership roles at Seagate, HTC Vive, Apple, and Google.Jason spent 7 years as a United States Air Force intelligence officer, including work on the President's Daily Intelligence Briefing, an experience that shapes how he thinks about assembling trustworthy context for high-stakes decisions under uncertainty.How Undefined Data Definitions Make AI Confidently WrongEvery marketing ops team has heard the warning: AI is only as good as the data you feed it. You've nodded along. You've probably said it yourself. But the warning leaves out the most important detail, which is what the failure actually looks like when the model is running.Jason Dobbs knows what it looks like. He learned it from a crash. He rides high-speed F1 electric skateboards at 50 to 60 miles an hour, and he's fallen before. He can tell you he's never fallen the same way twice. When he greenlit agentic and predictive workflows at Kumo AI before the data architecture was ready, the failure followed the same logic: unexpected, and avoidable only in hindsight.The model returned results that looked operational. Scores came back precise. Summaries sounded coherent. Recommendations felt grounded. The failure was invisible to anyone who didn't already know what correct should look like.The weakness surfaced when someone pushed. Ask the follow-up question, why did you score this account, what data drove this decision, and the logic fell apart. The definitions feeding the model had never been agreed on across the business. Sales and marketing were not working from the same idea of what a qualified lead meant. The AI had scaled an unresolved internal argument into what looked like a confident answer.Jason traces the failure to a structural problem that predates any model decision. When a system cannot explain its own outputs, and when nobody in the room has standing to say what the correct answer should look like, you have built a very polished way to be wrong. That is dangerous precisely because it passes a surface inspection. People who were not close to the data trusted the output. Nobody pushed back.What he carried out of that experience was a reframe of what marketing ops actually produces. The shared definitions, the trusted data sources, the named owners, the workflow guardrails: that is the product. Every AI initiative sitting on top of unresolved questions about what the business means by its own terms will generate outputs that look credible right up until someone has to act on one. Speed to AI deployment and quality of AI output run in opposite directions for teams that skipped the definition work. The ceiling on any AI system is the clarity of what the business agreed it was optimizing for before anyone touched a model.Key takeaway: Run this diagnostic before signing off on any AI or analytics initiative: can a human reproduce the logic behind the output and explain who owns the decision that follows? If nobody can answer that cleanly, the system is automating an unresolved argument. Start by documenting shared definitions for your 5 most-used business terms (pipeline, qualified lead, active customer, opportunity, churn) and get explicit sign-off from sales, marketing, and ops before any model sees them.Why Context Engineering Replaces Prompt Engineering as the AI Bottleneck"Context engineering" is appearing in every AI strategy conversation right now. Scott Brinker devoted a report to it. Conferences are building entire tracks around it. The framing is right, but for most teams the phrase still points at a feeling rather than a concrete set of decisions.Jason Dobbs's version is more precise. "Fix the data" is the directive most teams have been living under for years, and the structural problem with it is that it makes the work sound like a single epic project with a clear endpoint, a Holy Grail that teams have been questing toward since before the first CRM went live. The warehouse always has gaps. The CRM always has problems. The right question is narrower: what minimum context and control does this specific workflow actually need to produce a trustworthy output?That reframe narrows the scope from an organization-wide data quality initiative to a workflow-specific requirements checklist. For any given AI decision, the context bundle has 6 components: the definitions the system is operating from, the data sources it has access to, the tools it can invoke, any memory it carries between sessions, the guardrails on what it can do autonomously, and the escalation path when confidence runs low. Those requirements are specific to each workflow. They're answered by asking exactly what this workflow needs, not by cleaning the warehouse in general.The shift from prompt engineering to context engineering reflects how the bottleneck has moved as the models matured. A prompt is the last instruction a model receives. Context is everything it's working with before that: the definitions, the data access, the scope of authority, the path back to a human when a decision exceeds what the system should make on its own. Teams tuning prompts while leaving the underlying context undefined are optimizing the most visible variable in the system while the one that actually governs quality sits untouc...
Transcribe →
220: Alex Halliday: How to build content engineering systems that get cited and scale without slop
3w ago01:06:06Tap to summarizeWhat's up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Alex Halliday, Founder and CEO at AirOps.(00:00) - Intro (01:19) - In This Episode (01:54) - Sponsor: Attribution App (02:57) - Sponsor: GrowthLoop (04:19) - How AirOps Pivoted to AI Content Engineering (08:23) - The Real Definition of Content Engineering and Why It's Not About Publishing More (13:14) - What a Content Engineer Does That a Senior Content Marketer Does Not (27:31) - What It Actually Takes to Get AI Content Past a Human Editor (30:52) - Sponsor: Knak (32:00) - Sponsor: MoEngage (43:21) - Why Review Becomes the Bottleneck After You Automate Content Production (47:13) - Why Enterprise CMS Integration Is Harder Than the Content Quality Problem (51:07) - Why the Agent Runtime Is the Next Competitive Battleground for Content Teams (55:02) - What the Case Against Content Engineering Gets Wrong About the Role (58:08) - What a Content Engineering Team Looks Like in 3 Years (01:03:45) - How Alex Decides What Deserves His Energy Summary: Alex built AirOps to help teams access company data, then a conversation with Sam Altman and a cramped middle seat on a flight to Atlanta changed everything. In this episode, he breaks down what content engineering actually means — not just generating more AI content, but building the systems infrastructure to maintain quality, freshness, and brand accuracy across everything a company has ever put online. He makes the counterintuitive case that great content engineering puts more humans into the content process, and explains why 98% of AirOps's pilots convert to annual customers while most AI content pilots fail. If you think AI content is just a faster way to publish more, this episode will change how you think about it.About Alex HallidayAlex Halliday is the Founder and CEO of AirOps, where he leads the development of AI content engineering systems that help brands build visibility in AI search. Before founding AirOps in 2022, he served as Head of Product at MasterClass, where he was the company's first product hire and helped scale revenue 10x. As a Venture Partner at SparkLabs Global Accelerator, Alex has made early investments in OpenAI, Anthropic, Groq, and Discord.How AirOps Pivoted to AI Content EngineeringIn early 2022, the LLM moment hadn't happened yet. Not publicly. GPT-3 existed but was barely on anyone's radar in marketing. Most "AI for marketing" conversations were still about sentiment analysis tools and basic chatbots. The prevailing assumption was that software had rules, rules had limits, and those limits were the floor you designed around.Alex Halliday had an unusual vantage point. As a venture partner at SparkLabs Global Accelerator with early investments in OpenAI and Anthropic, he was closer to what was actually happening than almost anyone in his world. He still wasn't ready for what came next.It started with a conversation. He was in San Francisco with Sam Altman, something he made a habit of — whenever they crossed paths, Alex asked the same question: what's sparking your imagination these days? On this particular occasion, Altman's answer was different. The AI stuff was getting really good, he said. When Alex pushed for specifics, Altman told him they were getting close to AI that could read all your emails and tell you what to do for the week. It sounded completely insane.Alex filed it away. Then, a few weeks later, he was on a flight to Atlanta, sandwiched in the middle seat between 2 large men with nowhere to go and nothing else to do. He finally opened an OpenAI account and started building.That experience in a cramped middle seat sent AirOps in a new direction. The company had been founded to help non-technical employees access company data — a broad, useful product with no obvious north star. Knowing the paradigm was shifting and knowing what your company should actually do about it are different problems. Alex had to translate that conviction into a focus, which meant making a hard call. When a space is growing as fast as LLM applications were in 2022 and 2023, trying to be everything to everyone is a trap.The answer came from the data, not from a whiteboard. When the team looked at their heat map of usage, 1 cluster burned hotter than anything else: technical CMOs, leaders of 50 to 100 person marketing orgs, working nights and weekends inside AirOps building ambitious content systems. High-taste users with strong opinions and no patience for tools that couldn't meet their standard. The market was doing what markets do when they find something they want — it was insisting.By mid-2023, AirOps had committed fully. The customer was the high-taste marketing professional who wanted to build content systems at scale, not just generate more content. Every decision since has been built around that person. The most important pivots rarely happen in planning sessions. They happen when you actually use the thing, look at the data honestly, and trust what the market is telling you over the story you had planned to tell.Key takeaway: Look at your usage data and find the cluster of users who are working hardest and complaining most specifically — they are telling you who your product is actually for. Make time to try the tools reshaping your industry with your own hands. Alex's pivot started in a cramped middle seat he couldn't escape. Any open hour will do.The Real Definition of Content Engineering and Why It's Not About Publishing MoreMarketing teams have been chasing the wrong metric since LLMs went mainstream. The race defaulted to volume: how many posts, how fast, how much can you automate. That framing made sense in an era where more content meant more crawlable pages, more keywords, more surface area for Google to index. The era has changed.AI agents now sit between buyers and brands. When someone asks ChatGPT or Perplexity a question about your product category, an agent synthesizes content from across the web — your owned pages, third-party publications, Reddit threads, review platforms — and returns a single answer. That agent is not counting pages. It's evaluating quality, depth, freshness, and what Alex describes as information gain: the degree to which any given piece of content adds something new to what the model already knows.That's a meaningfully different standard. A 2022 blog post with outdated product language, stale statistics, and broken links doesn't rank lower in AI search — it's absent from it entirely. Webflow, 1 of AirOps's customers, saw what investing in content refresh workflows does to those outcomes: 42% more traffic and AI-attributed conversions performing 6x better than standard organic. That's a maintenance story, not a content production story.There's also a conflation doing a lot of damage in this conversation. Content written with AI assistance gets lumped together with content generated by AI with no original grounding or context. The studies that say "AI content performs poorly" tend to define AI content as the second category, and the conflation goes unexamined in most LinkedIn commentary. The distinction matters enormously. Content that draws on real interviews, proprietary data, internal expertise, and company-specific context performs differently from content that's a model recombining what already exists on the internet.The brands performing well in AI search right now are treating their content library as a living system with real quality standards — a garden that requires ongoing maintenance rather than a publishing archive. They're building workflows to keep content fresh, surface internal knowledge that's been sitting in Google Drive unused, and maintain what...
Transcribe →
219: Elizabeth Dobbs: Inside Databricks' stack with 3 AI agents, 1 lakehouse, and 6 years of data work
4w ago00:56:56Tap to summarizeWhat's up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Elizabeth Dobbs, AVP of Marketing Technology, Data and Growth at Databricks.(00:00) - Intro (01:18) - In This Episode (01:47) - Sponsor: Knak (02:55) - Sponsor: MoEngage (04:16) - Why Velocity Beats Permanence in Marketing Data Architecture (12:00) - Why Databricks Embedded Data Engineers Inside Marketing (15:02) - Inside Databricks' 3 Marketing Ops Agents (18:56) - How Databricks Built an AI Analyst That Marketing Teams Actually Trust (26:13) - How Agent Tagatha Cut Months of Manual Content Tagging to Hours (30:07) - Sponsor: AttributionApp (31:09) - Sponsor: GrowthLoop (34:48) - How Agent Atlas Replaced the Rules-Based Segmentation Wheel (39:28) - Why Marketers Don't Care Whether You Call It an Agent (43:32) - How to Get Data Warehouse Access When Your Team Doesn't Own It (48:36) - What Databricks Is Actually Testing for in Marketing Hires Now (54:04) - What Gives Liz Energy Outside the Office Summary: Elizabeth Dobbs spent 6 years at Databricks doing something most marketing leaders only talk about: building the data infrastructure before deploying the AI on top of it. She's shipped 3 production agents (Marge, Tagatha, and Atlas) and she'll tell you exactly what broke first and why the team kept going anyway. You'll hear how a marketing lakehouse becomes the foundation that makes every agent actually work, why the agent label debate is a distraction, and what Liz is genuinely testing for in marketing interviews now that AI-polished resumes all look the same in Greenhouse. If your AI ambitions are running ahead of your data foundation, this episode is going to reorder your roadmap.About Elizabeth DobbsElizabeth Dobbs is the AVP of Marketing Technology, Data and Growth at Databricks, where she leads the team responsible for the company's full marketing stack, including data engineers and data scientists embedded directly in marketing. Promoted to AVP in February 2025 after more than 5 years building Databricks' marketing data infrastructure from scratch, she architected the company's marketing lakehouse and deployed 3 production AI agents serving the entire marketing org. Before Databricks, she spent nearly 7 years at Khoros in a series of marketing operations and demand generation leadership roles, including Chief of Staff to the CMO.Why Velocity Beats Permanence in Marketing Data ArchitectureIf you work at a company called Databricks, you assume the marketing data is fine. The word "data" is literally in the name. When Elizabeth Dobbs was interviewing 6 years ago and someone in sales ops told her straight up that the data was a complete mess, she thought they were being politely humble. She took the job. She found out they meant it.What she encountered fit the startup playbook exactly. Agencies hired for agency's sake because headcount was thin. Systems that barely talked to each other. Stacks of what she calls "human middleware," people spending their days manually bridging gaps the infrastructure couldn't close. Databricks was probably no worse than any other high-growth startup at that scale. But fixing it meant accepting something most marketing teams resist: building for permanence is a waste of energy.When Liz and her team sat down to fix things, they made a call that runs against how most marketing orgs are wired. They stopped trying to build the perfect foundation. At 1,000 people, you might get away with it. At 10,000, perfection is a distraction. By the time you finish, the company has changed shape again. So they optimized for velocity. Centralized data imperfectly. Built shared definitions that not everyone followed consistently. Accepted the bubblegum-and-duct-tape reality. And they stayed intentional about exactly 1 thing: knowing which decisions you cannot walk back.The one-way door framework is how they sorted the rest. Some decisions hurt to make but compound over time. A marketing lakehouse, all first-party data in 1 governed and catalogued place, is the example she keeps returning to. There is no SaaS tool you would buy, no agent you would deploy, that wouldn't benefit from having that foundation underneath it. That makes it a no-regret decision even when it's brutal to build. The other category, the rip-and-replace bets, is where you move fast and hedge. Agents might automate an entire workflow in 18 months. They might not be ready. You place smaller bets there and iterate. What you don't do is apply the same level of commitment to decisions that actually shouldn't last.6 years later, the core of Databricks' marketing stack looks a lot like it did when Liz started. LeanData. Familiar prospecting tools. The same basic webinar infrastructure. The vendors who survived are the ones who grew alongside the team, who stayed flexible as Databricks scaled well past what their standard playbook assumed. In a market that treats every tool as disposable, the ones that last are the ones that earned it. The companies that build durable AI systems in marketing will be the ones who made the unsexy architectural call first and let everything else follow from it.Key takeaway: Before committing to any AI agent or new platform, split your roadmap into 2 categories: one-way doors and reversible bets. A centralized, governed marketing data layer goes in the one-way door category. Pour resources into it without condition and treat every setback as a speed bump. For everything else, including which agents you deploy and which tools you layer on top, move fast, hedge small, and iterate. Run that filter on your next planning cycle and you'll stop debating tools and start building the foundation that makes all of them actually work.Why Databricks Embedded Data Engineers Inside MarketingMarketing ops leaders who don't have embedded data engineers spend a lot of time explaining to others why they can't move faster. Liz's team has data engineers and data scientists who report into marketing, not into a central IT org. Most people assume she fought for it. The actual story is less dramatic and more instructive.It came from 2 leaders giving the team room before they could prove the full return. Her CMO Rick and CCIO Mike Hamilton were direct about it: we have our own fires, you know enough to be dangerous, you know where the lines are. File Jira tickets if you need something outside your lane, but otherwise go run. That kind of organizational trust is rare. What made it stick was showing the velocity difference on something concrete. Bring in 1 or 2 data engineers with actual marketing domain experience, and the speed gap becomes obvious. Marketing data has its own rules. MDF means different things to different teams. ROAS has regional variations. Pipeline attribution is a political minefield. Someone who has lived in that domain moves 10 times faster than someone learning it in place.That observation turns out to apply directly to the agents Liz's team built later. You spend months onboarding a new hire with marketing domain context. That person leaves before the investment fully pays off and you start over. Agents don't do that. You train them, you give them the context, they hold it. What Databricks figured out with internal resourcing, they've since encoded into how they think about deploying AI. The parallel is direct and Liz draws it explicitly: the reason domain knowledge matters for people is the same reason it matters when you're configuring an agent.The team that resulted from this structure is part of why Marge, Tagatha, and Atlas were even possible. You can't build a marketing lakehouse without engineers who understand what the data is supposed to represent. You can't deploy an agent ...
Transcribe →
218: Tata Maytesyan: Build a marketing career that survives AI as a deep generalist
May 500:56:07Tap to summarizeWhat's up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Tata Maytesyan, Growth Consultant, Keynote Speaker, and AI Trainer.(00:00) - Intro (01:08) - In This Episode (01:46) - Sponsor: GrowthLoop (02:50) - Sponsor: Attribution App (04:34) - Which Marketing Tasks Are Actually Worth Automating (13:07) - Why Deep Generalists Outperform Channel Specialists in Marketing (26:07) - Sponsor: MoEngage (27:04) - Sponsor: Knak (35:06) - Why Marketing Org Charts Are Not Getting Flatter (43:01) - Why Change Management Determines Whether AI Adoption Actually Sticks (48:03) - The Fear of Automating Yourself Out of a Job (53:13) - The Voice Diary Technique for Tracking Your Own Energy at Work Summary: Tata Maytesyan runs an AI bootcamp for marketers on Maven and consults with scaling companies across Europe. In this episode, she breaks down why the best AI automation targets are the boring, repeatable tasks nobody talks about on LinkedIn, and why the specialist-to-generalist shift in marketing is already happening whether your org chart reflects it or not. She also gets direct about what's really going on inside companies claiming to go flat, the 100-hour threshold for building genuine competence across domains, and the self-preservation fear she hears from leaders every week. If you have ever wondered whether you are building your career around the right foundations, this episode is worth your full attention.About Tata MaytesyanTata Maytesyan is the founder and CEO of Grow Global Tech, where she builds AI-powered marketing systems for tech scale-ups and runs a hands-on AI bootcamp for marketers on Maven. She spent 15+ years leading growth inside Nike, Deloitte, and Picsart, including a stint as Head of Product Strategy and Operations for Picsart's content and AI division, a platform with over 100 million monthly active users. She has since advised more than 40 companies across 12 countries on go-to-market strategy and AI adoption, and consults primarily with CMOs and CEOs at companies between a few million and $200 million in annual revenue.Which Marketing Tasks Are Actually Worth AutomatingThe wrong starting point for AI adoption in marketing is inspiration. Most marketers scroll LinkedIn for jaw-dropping use cases: ad creative generated at scale, competitive analysis in 10 minutes, entire campaign briefs written by agents. It looks impressive. It's also almost never applicable to your specific job on any given Tuesday. Tata has spent years watching this pattern play out with consulting clients and bootcamp students. Her fix is deliberately boring.At the start of every engagement, she asks everyone in the room to close their AI tools. Then she opens Miro and maps how the team actually works. From there, 3 questions run against every process on the board: how often the task repeats, how acceptable an imperfect output would be, and whether it's something you actually enjoy doing.Those 3 questions quietly eliminate most of what people think they want to automate. Frequency kills off exciting-but-rare workflows not worth touching. Risk tolerance separates contexts where imperfect output is acceptable (most content tasks) from those where it isn't. Tata advises a healthcare client where certain work is patient-facing, and mistakes there carry real consequences. The enjoyment filter protects the parts of the job people actually like, because automating something you love is just spending money to make work less interesting.Her own example from the day this episode recorded: she built a script to pull LinkedIn post metrics (impressions, comments, likes) into Notion. Before that, an assistant handled it. Before that, she did it herself. She describes the task with open contempt, which makes it the perfect candidate: something done constantly, where imperfect output is acceptable, and which requires 0 joy to hand off. She calls it boring is sexy. "Figure out the workflow you do repeatedly, and then if mistakes are manageable and you're okay with them, delegate and automate with AI."People get frustrated when they hear this. You show up to a bootcamp or hire a consultant expecting to leave with something impressive. Instead someone hands you a whiteboard. But Tata is direct about the tradeoff: "It takes time and it slows you down, sort of feels like it slows you down. In fact, it speeds you up."The same logic applies to how people first explore AI tools. Pure tinkering has value: testing a new model, playing with a capability outside any work context. That's curiosity, and it's worth protecting. But when something needs to work reliably in your actual job, setup is non-negotiable: context files, folder structure, clear instructions. The AI can't fill in what you don't give it.The most durable AI workflows come from people who got honest about which parts of their week are boring, repetitive, and low-stakes. LinkedIn will give you inspiration. Your Miro board will give you your actual starting point.Key takeaway: Map your actual workflow before opening any AI tool. For each repeated task, ask whether mistakes are acceptable and whether you actually enjoy doing it. Frequent, low-risk, low-joy work is the right first target. Build from there.Why Deep Generalists Outperform Channel Specialists in MarketingThere's a running debate in marketing about whether to go deep in a specialty or build broad across domains. The specialist argument has genuine weight: if you've never actually run an SEO campaign, how do you know when an AI is confidently producing garbage? Tata sees the point. She also thinks the framing is wrong. Specialization built around channels is the vulnerability, and channels keep changing.Her term for what marketers should actually become is "deep generalist," a phrase she found on the internet and adopted because it captures something the T-shaped marketer framework mostly misses. A deep generalist has real expertise in at least 1 domain but deliberately builds breadth around it. The depth is still there. The difference is the deliberate horizontal stretch.She watches this compression play out in her bootcamp every cohort. At the start of cohort 6, a participant said her team of 4 had been cut to just her. As the remaining content writer, she was now responsible for everything: SEO, social, website, the whole thing. That's not a future prediction. It's already the operational reality for a large share of the marketing workforce, and the people who trained deep in a single channel with no adjacent experience are the ones struggling most.The channel argument is where Tata's case gets sharper. An "SEO specialist" built around Google search has a real problem now that AI Overviews are reshaping how search works. Nobody building a "TikTok specialist" career a few years ago expected it to become a top-performing B2B SaaS ad channel. But 1 VP of business development recently told Tata that's exactly what's happening at their company. Channels are fluid. Betting deep on any specific 1 locks you into an increasingly narrow position.Her own example: at Picsart, 1 division had no SEO function and no budget for an agency. Tata spent 2 months doing the SEO work herself, learning enough to direct AI through the process. When the business eventually hired an SEO agency, the agency was impressed by what was already in place. She had put in enough time to know what good SEO looked like and how to direct AI against that standard effectively.The underlying skill that makes all of this work is judgment. Generating an image is table stakes. Knowing whether it's good, whether it fits, whether an agent's output is trustworthy enough to use: those require domain awareness that a speciali...
Transcribe →
217: How to interview a company before you take the job (The Martech job hunt survival guide, part 3)
Apr 2800:54:23Tap to summarizeSummary: This episode closes Phil and Darrell's 3-part series on the marketing ops job market with the question they've been building toward: what do you ask the company? Darrell shares a firsthand account of taking a job under financial pressure, ignoring red flags he recognized in the moment, and landing in a toxic environment within months. What follows is a structured set of interview questions across 6 categories, from leadership self-awareness to what happened to the last person in the role, designed to help you separate the job offer from the job reality. If the only question you've ever asked at the end of an interview was about growth opportunities, this episode is going to change how you think about that conversation.In This Episode:(00:00) - Intro (01:09) - In This Episode (01:42) - Sponsor: MoEngage (02:40) - Sponsor: Knak (06:06) - What to Figure Out Before You Ask a Single Interview Question (12:19) - How to Test a Hiring Manager's Self-Awareness in a Single Question (18:14) - How to Find Out If a Hiring Manager Can Handle Being Wrong (24:37) - Sponsor: GrowthLoop (25:41) - Sponsor: Mammoth Growth (26:46) - Why "When Did You Last Take a Vacation?" Is the Most Revealing Culture Question (32:09) - How to Find Out If a Company Sticks to Its Priorities or Changes Them Every Quarter (36:31) - How to Find Out What a Marketing Ops Role Actually Requires Before You Accept It (46:04) - Why Fear in a Peer Interview Is the Red Flag You Should Never Ignore What to Figure Out Before You Ask a Single Interview QuestionThe US healthcare system has a way of making bad career decisions feel necessary. When you're laid off with a family depending on employer-sponsored coverage, the clock starts immediately. Every week without an offer is another week closer to COBRA. That pressure doesn't make people irrational. It makes the math of a job offer feel different than it normally would.Darrell Alfonso was in that position last year. A few months after getting laid off, he received what looked like a career comeback: a higher title, more responsibility, better pay, and benefits. The package was attractive enough that he pushed aside doubts surfacing during the process. He knew some things felt off. He took the job anyway. Within 2 months, he was having near-anxiety attacks, sleeping poorly, and barely present with his family. He left quickly. He has no regrets.Most interview prep points in a single direction: getting the offer. Candidates research companies, rehearse answers, and practice looking calm under pressure. The harder question, whether the offer is worth taking, gets almost no airtime. Phil frames this episode as being for people with enough options to ask both. That might mean multiple offers in play, the ability to keep searching while still employed, or simply enough runway to be selective. If you're in survival mode, some of this will still apply. But the questions work best when you have the leverage to actually act on the answers you get.Before choosing which questions to ask, decide what you're trying to find out. Phil and Darrell use what makes you happy at work as the starting filter. For some people it's ownership and interesting problems. For others it's stability, predictable hours, or family-friendly flexibility. Darrell puts the manager relationship at the top. Your boss marks your performance, sets your priorities, and shapes whether it feels safe to admit you're stuck or struggling. Career advice tends to understate how much that single variable determines whether someone thrives or burns out, regardless of how strong everything else looks on paper. The candidates who ask the sharpest questions are usually the ones who did that harder internal work first.Key takeaway: Before your next round of interviews, write down 3 things that would make you miserable in a role. Be specific: not "bad culture" but things like "a boss who overrides my work constantly" or "no flexibility on hours." Use that list as your filter when deciding which questions to prioritize. If a company can't answer those 3 things in a way that gives you confidence, the decision gets harder than it needs to be.How to Test a Hiring Manager's Self-Awareness in a Single QuestionThe most common reason people leave jobs is their manager. That gets cited often but rarely changes how candidates behave in interviews. Most people assess for chemistry from the vibe of the conversation, look for red flags in the standard answers, and hope the hiring manager turns out to be reasonable. Phil uses a more deliberate approach.His bank of questions for probing leadership self-awareness:What's something leadership got wrong in the last year?, What feedback do you get most often as a hiring manager?, What decision would you revisit if you could?, What's changed about how you lead over time?, What's something you're still figuring out about your leadership style?The first 1 does the most work. Every leadership team makes mistakes. If a hiring manager can't name 1, they're either hiding something or genuinely can't reflect on their own decisions. The answer that matters isn't the mistake itself. It's whether they can describe it clearly, explain what they took from it, and say what changed.Darrell pushes the same idea with a different angle: ask what issues a hiring manager has had with a former leader, or with a former direct report. If the answer sounds carefully managed, nothing too specific, nothing too negative, that polish is informative. People who have actually led teams through difficult stretches can name them. They have timelines, outcomes, and lessons. Vague answers suggest either limited experience or a preference for impression management over honesty.Phil's version of the final question in this category is direct: describe your worst boss ever, and why were they the worst? A hiring manager who answers with a real story, including what it cost their team and how they changed as a result, is giving you the most reliable signal available in a 30-minute conversation. Darrell used a version of this in a recent interview. He was upfront with his prospective boss about coming from a toxic environment. She responded by citing 2 specific bosses who had made her professional life difficult, described what each 1 got wrong, and connected it to how she tries to lead now. That answer built more confidence than the rest of the process combined.Leadership self-awareness is a practice developed through confronting moments where instincts were wrong and the team paid for it. The managers worth working for have had those moments and can talk about them specifically. The ones who can't usually haven't processed them.Key takeaway: Ask your next hiring manager: "What's something leadership got wrong in the last year?" Write down the answer verbatim as soon as the conversation ends. If the response is vague, hedged, or completely absent, you now have a data point that no amount of external research could give you. The managers worth working for have made real mistakes and can describe them specifically.How to Find Out If a Hiring Manager Can Handle Being WrongThere's a version of leadership that gets tolerated more than it should: the manager who hires people with deep expertise and then ignores them. The org chart implies delegation. The day-to-day contradicts it. You spend months delivering work that gets overridden by someone who hired you for your judgment and then second-guesses every call you make.Phil's set of questions for this goes directly at the pattern. Rather than asking whether a hiring manager is open to feedback in the abstract, ask for a specific instance: can you describe a time when s...
Transcribe →
216: How to stand out as a candidate with AI prep, portfolios and tools (The Martech job hunt survival guide, part 2)
Apr 2101:01:25Tap to summarizeWhat’s up everyone, today we continue with part 2 of a 3 part series we’re calling The Martech Job Hunt Survival Guide. Part 2 is: How to stand out as a candidate with AI prep, portfolios and tools.Summary: Phil and Darrell spent this episode breaking down what actually moves the needle when you’re searching for a role: building the portfolio that almost no marketing ops professional bothers to save, navigating the AI experience question, knowing when to take a contract role instead of holding out, and skipping the AI job-search tools that make you look like everyone else. The honest observations from Darrell’s own recent job search make this one worth listening to, including why the colleagues most reluctant to make a lateral move are still searching months later.In this Episode…(00:00) - Intro (01:01) - In This Episode (01:30) - Sponsor: Mammoth Growth (02:36) - Sponsor: GrowthLoop (05:24) - Why Hiring Managers Can't Actually Evaluate Your AI Experience (08:26) - How to Build a Marketing Ops Portfolio When Your Work Is Buried in Tools (17:56) - Why Creating LinkedIn Content Works Even When Nobody Is Watching (25:32) - What Hiring Managers Notice First on Your LinkedIn Profile (30:10) - Sponsor: Knak (31:13) - Sponsor: MoEngage (34:13) - Why Contract Work Is a Strategic Move for Marketing Ops Job Seekers Right Now (44:02) - Which Job Search Tools Help and Which Ones Waste Your Time (56:18) - How a Video Introduction or Visual Resume Gets You Into the Next Round Why Hiring Managers Can't Actually Evaluate Your AI ExperienceEvery marketing ops job posting in 2026 has the same line buried somewhere in the requirements: "proven experience delivering results with AI." Walk into any interview and within the first few minutes someone will ask you to describe what you've actually done with it. That question sounds reasonable until you realize the person asking usually has no idea what a good answer looks like.Darrell came out of a recent job search with a clear read on this. The interview questions had shifted entirely. The old MarTech interview, the 1 that asks about your tool stack and campaign history, has been replaced. AI is now the primary filter. Companies want proof of results. But AI-driven marketing ops, as an actual practice, barely existed 3 years ago. Phil put the absurdity into 4 words: "5 years of AI experience." Everyone in hiring knows it's a joke. They're writing it anyway.The talent pool has gotten harder at the same time. Amazon's most recent layoffs displaced over 10,000 people. Layoffs at Google and across the broader tech sector added more. You're competing against that cohort now, which means the undifferentiated application is in worse shape than it's ever been. Everything has to be sharper.But the opening Darrell is pointing at is real. The hiring managers writing "proven AI experience required" often can't define what good AI usage looks like for a marketing ops role. They're expressing a priority while lacking any rubric to test it. When they ask the interview question, they're listening for someone who sounds like they know what they're talking about. Most candidates coming through don't. You feel it during prep, that uncomfortable awareness that you don't know exactly what they want from you. The honest truth is they don't either.That gap is yours. Research what AI actually does in marketing ops workflows: lead scoring automation, campaign orchestration, data governance, intent signal processing. Build 1 small example if you have the time. Frame your existing work in terms of where AI would fit and how you'd measure it. Darrell's framing: you can position as a credible AI enthusiast with very little preparation, because the bar inside most marketing orgs is low and most candidates aren't clearing it.The industry required AI fluency before building any way to evaluate it. That's not a problem. For candidates willing to do the homework most skip, it's the whole advantage.Key takeaway: Research 3 specific AI use cases in marketing ops before your next interview: lead scoring automation, campaign workflow agents, and CRM data deduplication are good starting points. Prepare 1 concrete story connecting 1 to work you've done or would do. If you haven't built anything yet, describe the workflow you'd build and how you'd measure its impact. Candidates who speak specifically and confidently about AI applications win these conversations, because they're often the only ones in the room who prepared.How to Build a Marketing Ops Portfolio When Your Work Is Buried in ToolsMost marketing ops professionals have spent years doing meaningful, complex work. They've built lead scoring models, managed platform migrations, architected multi-channel campaign workflows. And if you asked them to show you any of it in an interview, most couldn't. The templates are gone. The diagrams were never made. The results are a rough number someone mentioned once in a meeting.Darrell has sat on the interviewer side of enough conversations to be direct: the portfolio problem in marketing ops is almost universal. Candidates describe their work verbally, and the person asking often can't follow it. There's nothing to point to, nothing to walk through, nothing that makes the experience tangible. In a field full of technical, visual, process-driven work, almost no 1 has anything to show.The bar to stand out is genuinely low. Darrell's starting point: if you've built a custom GPT, a Google Gem, or a basic AI agent using Zapier, that alone puts you ahead of most candidates. It takes about 10 minutes to build 1. It demonstrates something concrete about how you think and work. The same logic applies to documentation that almost no company does well: a clean diagram of your current or former tech stack, before-and-after views of a migration you led, a lead scoring template, a product requirements document for a tool evaluation. These are ordinary outputs of the job. Almost no 1 saves them.Phil's preferred format is the case study. Take a project you led, strip the confidential details, and walk through it as if you were an outside consultant brought in to solve the problem. What was the situation before you arrived? What did you do? What did it look like after? Specific numbers and percentages help, but they're not required. A clean diagram showing a tech stack before and after a migration, or a flow chart of a campaign workflow you built, communicates competence without a single metric. For quantifying impact when the numbers are murky, Darrell's suggestion is to use AI to reverse-engineer the math. If you cut campaign launch time by 20%, work backward through campaigns per quarter, leads generated, and pipeline influenced. You can build an intelligent, defensible estimate, and most candidates don't even try.The format doesn't need to be elaborate. A Google Slides deck linked from your resume, tracked with a Bitly vanity URL so you can see who opens it, is more than enough. The bigger benefit of building a portfolio at all is what it does to your interview prep. Reviewing your own work, articulating outcomes, distilling a project into a problem-action-result narrative means you've already done the thinking before anyone asks the question. Phil's point: the exercise of building the portfolio and the exercise of preparing for interviews are the same exercise.Key takeaway: Start with your most recent project and build 1 case study: the problem you walked into, what you built or changed, and the measurable outcome. Add a tech stack diagram if you don't have 1. Link both as a Google Slides deck from your resume and track opens with a Bitly URL. Even a basic portfolio puts you in ...
Transcribe →
215: How to find hidden job opportunities (The Martech job hunt survival guide, part 1)
Apr 1400:57:46Tap to summarizeWhat's up everyone, today we kick off part 1 of a 3 part series we’re calling The Martech Job Hunt Survival Guide. Part 1 is: How to find hidden job opportunities.In This Episode:(00:00) - Intro (01:23) - In This Episode (01:59) - Sponsor: Knak (03:06) - Sponsor: MoEngage (04:49) - Why Getting Laid Off Is Always a Business Decision (08:52) - Building Career Security Before You Need It (10:51) - Networking Before You Need Anyone's Help (24:29) - Building Your Dream Company List Before the Job Search Starts (27:04) - Sponsor: Mammoth Growth (28:07) - Sponsor: RevenueHero (29:01) - Why AI Side Projects Give You a Real Edge in Job Interviews (34:50) - The 2026 Martech Job Market Reality Check (42:18) - The Ashby Search Hack and Why Referrals Beat Job Applications (49:58) - Hidden Job Boards and Staffing Firms Most Candidates Ignore (53:52) - Finding Martech Jobs at Stealth Startups Using VC Funding Alerts (55:31) - Why Fast-Growing Martech Agencies Are an Underrated Hiring Path Summary: This episode is a full playbook for martech and marketing ops professionals navigating 1 of the toughest job markets in years. Phil and Darrell cover what to build before you ever need a job: network, dream company lists, freelance income, AI side projects. Then it shifts to the tactical mechanics of finding roles most candidates never see. From the Ashby Google search hack to VC job boards, staffing firm pipelines, and stealth startup cold outreach, the counterintuitive moves are the most useful ones here. If you're currently employed, the early chapters are for you. If you're already searching, skip ahead.Why Getting Laid Off Is Always a Business DecisionBeing laid off in 2025 wasn't rare. It was practically routine. Amazon cut thousands. Friends pinged Darrell with news of their own layoffs while he was still processing his own. He knew what was happening across the industry. He was prepared. And then it happened anyway, and prepared turned out not to mean what he thought it meant.What comes next is something anyone who's been through it will recognize. Identity goes first. The role you've spent years building, the thing that answers "so what do you do?" at every party, just disappears overnight. Then the financial math kicks in. Darrell got 4 months of severance, which is a genuinely good outcome, and it still wasn't as much as it sounded like when he heard the number. But underneath all of it is the worst part: the replay loop. If only you'd been more visible. If only you'd taken a different project. If only you'd made that 1 relationship work. Darrell puts it plainly. Being laid off is a business decision, full stop, regardless of your performance, your visibility, or who liked you. The evidence arrived a few weeks later, when he found out that top performers across his entire organization had been cut, including his direct manager, someone who was by any measure visible, impactful, and doing everything right. When your boss gets laid off, there was nothing you could have done."If you've never been laid off before, you can't help but think it's your fault. The big feeling is: if only I had done something different, if only I was more visible, if only I had taken a different project. And that is just 100% not true. It is all business decisions."Phil's been there. He's been let go in his own career and knows exactly how the severance window tricks you. You have a little runway, so you tell yourself you'll take a month to decompress before getting back into it.That's the trap. The best advice Darrell got came from friends who had already navigated their own layoffs, and it was blunt: don't take a break. His instinct was to take a month off, maybe 2, then ease back in. The people who'd lived it told him something he didn't want to hear: it's going to take exactly that long just to get into pipelines. And while you're recovering, everyone else with the same resume and the same experience is making the same choice. You're competing against thousands of people who were also good at their jobs and also got laid off. Darrell ran full steam ahead instead. He ended up with 2 offers.How quickly you start matters more than how long you prepared. The people who figure that out in the first 48 hours have a real structural advantage over everyone else grieving on their couch.Key takeaway: Start your job search the week you're laid off. Reach out to friends who've been through it, get your materials ready, and get into pipelines immediately. Everyone else is planning to take a few weeks off first, and that gap is your only real competitive edge right now.--Building Career Security Before You Need ItMost people don't think about their next job until they lose the current 1. Full-time employment gives you a title and a salary, but career security is something you build separately, independent of any employer. You have benefits, recurring income, and a professional identity anchored to a single org chart, and the company can end any of that without notice.Here's how Phil thinks about it: an active network you can activate, something generating income outside your primary job, and a professional reputation that doesn't disappear when the org chart does. The companies that describe themselves as families are also the ones making headcount decisions when the numbers stop working. Your actual family is at home.This leads to 3 strategies Phil argues everyone in martech should be pursuing whether or not they're actively looking. First: nurture your network. Second: follow your dream companies. Third: do something outside your 9 to 5, whether freelancing, a side project, or anything with even a small amount of income attached. These aren't strategies for when you're in trouble. They're strategies for ensuring you never are. Roles in martech and marketing ops are among the first cut when companies reduce overhead. Operators who treat their current employment as permanent are more exposed than they realize."I've always been a fan of this stoic concept called the pre-mortem. In good times, imagine the worst-case scenario and work out what you'd do. I had always thought: what would happen if I lost my job? I knew I had a big network. So I wasn't as worried. But for many people, networking isn't something you do regularly."Key takeaway: Treat career security as a separate goal from job security. Map 3 building blocks: an active network, at least 1 income source outside your employer, and a professional identity that exists independent of your title. Start with whichever is weakest right now.--Networking Before You Need Anyone's HelpThe most common networking advice is to reach out when you're looking for work. Darrell's approach is the opposite: build and maintain relationships constantly, so the network already exists before you ever need it."I'm always asking for help. If you're figuring out how to integrate a tool, if you're figuring out why your database is so messed up, how are you not reaching out to people in a similar job and saying, hey, what are you doing? Because that, to me, is just a waste of time not to do that."His entry point is the Stoic concept of the pre-mortem. In good times, imagine the worst case scenario and work out what you'd do. For Darrell, that meant regularly asking himself what would happen if he lost his job tomorrow. Because he'd been building across martech and marketing ops communities for years before his layoff, the answer was already in place. He acknowledges most people don't approach it this way.What his version of ongoing networking looks like is less grand than the concep...
Transcribe →
214: Austin Hay: Claude Code is creating a new class of elite marketers and the mental models that make it click
Apr 701:02:30Tap to summarizeWhat's up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Austin Hay, Martech, Revtech, and GTM systems advisor, AND – AI builder, writer, and ex-founder. In This Episode:(00:00) - Austin-audio (01:16) - In This Episode (01:54) - Sponsor: RevenueHero (02:48) - Sponsor: Mammoth Growth (04:09) - How Code-Driven AI Workflows Outperform Chat-Based Prompting (14:55) - How to Start Building With Claude Code When You Have No Time (19:45) - The Programming Concepts Non-Developers Need to Build With Claude Code (23:49) - How to Turn Repeating Prompts Into Automations That Run Themselves (31:11) - Sponsor: MoEngage (32:07) - Sponsor: Knak (33:37) - Why Spending All Your Time in Meetings Is a Career Liability (36:28) - Why the Best First Claude Code Project Is the Task That Already Annoys You (40:22) - Why T-Shaped Marketers With Claude Code Will Cover the Work of Entire Teams (46:27) - Why Marketing Taste Matters More Than Technical Skill in the AI Era (49:43) - How Early-Career Professionals Build Judgment When Entry-Level Work Gets Automated (53:14) - How Austin Hay Runs His Career as a Flywheel Austin Hay has spent 15 years moving between the technical and strategic ends of marketing, starting as the 4th employee at Branch, building and selling a mobile growth consultancy that was acqui-hired by mParticle, and eventually rising to VP of Growth before moving on to Ramp as Head of Martech. He later co-founded Clarify, a CRM startup he took from zero to $100K+ ARR while completing a Wharton MBA. Today he works as a fractional advisor to scaling companies on martech, revtech, and GTM systems, teaches thousands of practitioners through his Martech course at Reforge, and writes the Growth Stack Mafia newsletter on Substack.Austin spent months as a chatbot skeptic before Claude Code changed his view entirely. In this conversation, he maps the gap between using AI through a chat interface and wielding it as code in your actual environment, explains why meeting-heavy schedules are a compounding career liability, and makes the case for a new class of professional he calls the white collar super saiyan.---## How Code-Driven AI Workflows Outperform Chat-Based PromptingMost marketers use AI the same way they used Google in 2005. Open the interface, type something in, read what comes back, copy it somewhere. Austin Hay did this for months. He was not an early Claude Code adopter. He says this upfront, almost as a confession. He thought it was another chatbot.What broke him was specific. He was querying financial data at his startup, Clarify, through Runway, an FP&A platform connected to QuickBooks. Every SQL change required the same round trip: write the query in terminal, copy it to Claude, get feedback, paste it back, run it. He built a folder just to manage the back-and-forth. The model couldn't see his local files. The chat UI had upload limits. He was stuck in what he calls a world of calling and answering. Functional. But slow. And bounded in a way you eventually stop ignoring.Claude Code gave him access. When you type claude in a terminal, the model reads your actual files — the data as it lives in your repository, not a paste you copied, not a summary you wrote. It runs commands against your system, observes what happens, and acts on the result. The round trip ends. You stop relaying information and start working in the same environment. That is a different thing than a smarter chatbot.The shift combined with several unlocks arriving at once: Opus as a model, MCPs that worked reliably, a Max plan that made unlimited credits economical, and an agent architecture built around memory files and commands. All of it hit critical mass for Austin in January. He says the last 6 months felt like 3 years. You can hear in how he talks about it that he means it.The 2 chasms he had written about in his newsletter turned out to be real and distinct. Adopting AI at all is chasm 1. Crossing from chat to code is chasm 2. Most practitioners have cleared the first. Almost none have cleared the second. And the view from the other side, Austin says, is unrecognizable.> "It's this culmination of many things that I think really hit this critical mass in about January of this year."Key takeaway: Install Claude Code, open a terminal, point it at a folder with files you actually work with — SQL queries, drafts, data exports, notes — and run a real task on them. The gap between giving AI access to your environment and describing your environment through a chat window is immediate and felt, and that feeling is what changes the mental model.---## How to Start Building With Claude Code When You Have No TimeThe time problem is real. You have a 9-to-5. Your weekends disappear. Nobody at your company is running AI hackathons. "Learn the command line" is not advice you can act on between your Thursday syncs.Austin doesn't dismiss this. But he points at the part most people miss: they know step 1 (chat interface) and they see step 3 (Claude Code in terminal) and they conclude the gap is too wide. Step 2 exists. And step 2 is where everything clicks.Anthropic's rollout is layered deliberately. Chat first: ask a question, read the answer, copy the output. Cowork space second: Claude works inside a folder on your computer, local or cloud-based, and you're giving it real files to act on. Coding interface third: terminal, commands, agents. The cowork space is a distinct step with its own payoff. It's where the model stops being a question-answering machine and becomes an environment you work inside.> "Once people understand that Claude lives in a folder on your computer and you can throw stuff in that folder and have it work for you — that's the next step."When you upload documents inside a Claude project and ask it to work on them, you learn something you can't get from chat: Claude lives in a folder. It acts on what's in front of it. That sounds obvious. It does not feel obvious until you've done it. And once you feel it, the jump from cowork to terminal starts feeling like a small step forward rather than a cliff.Where this leads, eventually, is automation that runs without you. A cron job fires at 6am. A script processes your data. A workflow runs in the cloud while you're on a call or asleep. Austin maps the progression clearly: folder on your machine, then a local cron, then a cloud-deployed process that runs continuously. The people building now are building the muscle memory to get there faster. You don't have to start in the deep end. But you have to start somewhere.Key takeaway: Start in Claude's cowork space, not the terminal. Upload a folder of documents you already work with regularly — meeting notes, a newsletter draft, recurring reports, templates — and ask Claude to perform a real task on them. That interaction builds the foundational mental model before you write a single line of code.---## The Programming Concepts Non-Developers Need to Build With Claude CodeAustin has been saying "learn the command line" for a decade. That advice predates AI by years. The reason it matters now is completely different from the reason it mattered then.The 3 foundations: command line (how computers work), object orientation (how APIs work), one programming language (how the web works). You don't need to master any of them. You need to understand them. Because without that base layer, you can use the tools that exist today, but you can't evaluate what Claude does when it uses them on your behalf.> "When you have those 3 things, you can teach yourself anything."That's the real value. When you...
Transcribe →
213: John Whalen: The next marketing advantage is pre-testing ideas on synthetic users
Mar 3101:08:24Tap to summarizeWhat’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Dr. John Whalen, Cognitive Scientist, Author, and Founder at Brilliant Experience.shTNmWsiInndTRwsf735Summary: John has spent his career studying how people actually think, and his conclusion is uncomfortable for anyone who believes their marketing decisions are more rational than they are. In this episode, John explores how synthetic users built from cognitive science principles can fill the massive research gap that most teams quietly ignore, and why removing the human interviewer from the room might be the fastest way to finally hear the truth.In this Episode…(00:00) - Intro (01:13) - In This Episode (04:31) - What Are Synthetic Users and Why Do They Matter? (10:00) - How Synthetic Users Make Stakeholders Hungry for Real Human Research (15:56) - Pre-Testing on Synthetic Users: Shortcut or Smart Step? (18:53) - How to Actually Build a Synthetic User: Tools, Layers, and Agentic Systems (40:51) - Is the Average Persona Dead? Scale, Diversity, and the World Model (43:01) - Asking the Uncomfortable Questions: What AI Agents Reveal That Humans Won't (49:30) - Ending the Quant vs. Qual Debate with Statistically Relevant Qualitative Data (56:37) - Mining the 'Why' Behind Silent Behavioral Data with Synthetic Users (01:02:31) - Designing for Agent Users: The Coming Shift to Human-and-Machine-Centered Design (01:05:28) - The Happiness Question: Dogs, Nature, and Staying Analog About JohnDr. John Whalen is a Cognitive Scientist, Author, and Founder of Brilliant Experience, where he applies cognitive science principles to help organizations design products and experiences that align with how people actually think and make decisions. He’s also an educator, teaching two AI customer research courses on Maven.His work explores the intersection of human psychology and marketing, including the emerging practice of pre-testing ideas on synthetic users to give brands a faster and more informed competitive edge. He is also the author of a book on the science of designing for the human mind, bringing academic rigor to practical business challenges.How Synthetic User Research Works and When to Trust ItSynthetic user research sounds like something creepy out of a dystopian science fiction film, and John is the first to admit the terminology does nobody any favors. When asked about what synthetic users actually are and what they mean for research, he admited: if he had been on the branding team, he would have pushed hard for something like “dynamic personas” instead. The name creates unnecessary friction before the conversation even starts. And that friction matters when you’re trying to get skeptical executives or methiculous researchers to take the whole thing seriously.Under the hood, specialized AI tools simulate how a defined audience segment would respond to a question, concept, or stimulus, without recruiting, scheduling, incentivizing, or waiting on real human participants. John runs a class where he collects genuine human data first, then feeds comparable inputs into these tools to benchmark accuracy head-to-head. The results are pretty wild. AI-generated responses align with real human findings somewhere between 85% and 100% of the time on major topics and consumer needs. That is not a peer-reviewed clinical trial, and John is not pretending otherwise. But 85% alignment is enough signal to stop reflexively dismissing the method and start asking harder, more specific questions about exactly where it fits into a research stack.So what does this mean for you and your company though? Think all the decisions that currently live in a black hole of zero structured input. How many product calls, campaign concepts, and messaging pivots happen with nothing more than a conference room full of people who all read the same talking heads on LinkedIn? John argues that low cost, round-the-clock accessibility, and minimal public exposure make these tools a natural fit for precisely those moments: pressure-checking a hypothesis at 11pm, testing whether a pitch direction even makes sense before it touches a client, or deciding whether a concept deserves the time and money required for proper validation.“If these are only going to keep getting better and better, which they are, then logically, what kinds of decisions right now go completely by gut and no research, and what could we use to help us frame that?”One of the more underappreciated angles John raises is global inclusivity. Large organizations routinely test in the US and Western Europe, then extrapolate those findings to markets in Southeast Asia, Latin America, or Sub-Saharan Africa because local research budgets simply do not exist. Big nono. Synthetic personas trained on broader, more representative data could at minimum provide directional signals for those markets, making research more geographically honest without a proportional spike in spend.The early AI bias problem, where models essentially mirrored the worldview of a narrow, tech-adjacent demographic slice, was real and valid and well-documented. But training data keeps expanding, and the gap between “Silicon Valley assumption” and “what people in Nairobi or Jakarta actually think” is narrowing in ways that deserve acknowledgment.Key takeaway: Synthetic user research earns its place not as a replacement for real human data, but as a low-cost, always-available pressure valve for the enormous volume of decisions that currently happen with no research input at all, so before you dismiss it as gimmicky, ask yourself honestly how many of your last ten strategic calls were backed by anything more rigorous than internal consensus.How Synthetic Users Make Stakeholders Want More Real Human ResearchThos big hairy static research decks have a fundamental limitation that anyone who has sat through a stakeholder presentation already understands. You hand over a slide deck, someone reads it, and then three days later they have five more questions you can’t answer without going back to the field. Brutal feeling.Interrogating a Live PersonaJohn argues that synthetic users solve this problem in a surprisingly indirect way: when a stakeholder can keep interrogating a live AI persona, the conversation never closes. They start poking at the model, asking things like “would you like this?” or “why would you feel that way about that?” and somewhere in that process, something shifts. They stop treating research as a report and start treating it as a living, always-on thing.What John has observed across a half-dozen client engagements is that this interactivity makes leaders ravenous for it. His team positions synthetic user outputs as directional, explicitly not as data, closer to hypothesis generation than validation. But still cray valuable. When a stakeholder gets genuinely excited about a pattern they’re seeing in a synthetic persona, the natural next thought tends to be “if this could actually be true, we need to go test it with real humans.” The synthetic user functions as a preview of the variance you might find in the field, not a substitute for going there.“Think of this as almost a preview of what you could have with your humans. So you’re being more prepared for what might be to come, what might be the distribution of different responses.”Instant ReactionsThere’s a second use case John describes, about discovering new questions. When a stakeholder first sits down to scope a research project, they often don’t know what they’re actually asking. Spinning up a synthetic user in the room and throwing that rough, half-formed question at it live tends to prod...
Transcribe →