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- [00:02]
A
Hey Radiotopia Friends, I wanted to make sure that you knew that Home Cooking is back with a new season. If you haven't heard Home Cooking yet, the show launched back in March 2020 right at the start of Lockdown, at a time when we all needed advice on cooking smarter at home. Host Samin Nasrat, chef and author of the best selling cookbook Salt Fat Acid Heat and the host of the Netflix series of the same name. And Rishikesh Hirway, host, creator of the Song Exploder podcast and Netflix series, continue to give the best food advice. What's the proper way to store herbs? How can you recreate your long lost family recipes? And what are the best food gifts for the holidays? Samin and Rishi are here to help with lots of laughs along the way. Home Cooking is back on August 29th with new episodes every other week. Make sure you're subscribed to get new episodes and visit Homecooking show for more info.
- [01:00]
B
This episode of Hyperfixed is brought to you by Mood Cannabis. Everyone's talking about it. Hey, I've heard of a can of soda, but a can of bis? I'm only joking. Listen, I'm getting reports from all my friends that this stuff is great. If only there was a company that thought cannabis should be accessible, affordable, convenient and transparent. Oh wait, there is. It's called Mood. Mood ships federally legal THC right to your door and they found a way to combine THC with carefully selected functional ingredients to target nearly every mood and health concern you can think of. I'm guessing that's why the company is called Mood. I'm talking about Mood.com's incredible line of functional gummies and you can get 20% off your first order at Mood.com with promo code HYPERFIXED. Forget one size fits all supplements that all only get you high moods. Functional gummies get you absolutely rocked off your ass. I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Moods gummies are optimized to kick in in as little as 15 minutes to take you to the mood you're looking for. Whether that's Mind Magic Gummies for deep work and creativity, PMS support to ease cramps and balance mood swings, or their sexual euphoria Gummies to help you feel ready for action and turn every turn touch into a full body experience. What do you think of that voice? It's just a thing I'm working on, I guess. Best of all, not only is every Mood product backed by a 100 day satisfaction guarantee, but as I mentioned, listeners get 20% off their first order with code HYPERFIXED so head to mood.com find the functional gummy that matches exactly what you're looking for, and let Mood help you discover your perfect mood. And don't forget to use the promo code hyperfixed when you check out. To save 20% off your first order mood. Get rocked off your ass. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. This episode of Hyperfix is brought to you by the An Arm and a Leg podcast. Ever gotten a medical bill that makes your brain freeze? You're not alone. An Arm and a Leg is the award winning podcast that dives deep into the question, why does healthcare cost so freaking much? Journalist Dan Weissman shares his investigative reporting with a personal touch and a sense of humor. Because if you don't laugh, you'd cry. Get answers to questions like why does an MRI cost $300 in one place and 3,000 in another? Why do bandages sometimes cost more than your rent? And what can regular people actually do when they're hit with sticker shock at the pharmacy? It's smart, clear reporting that not only helps you understand how the system really works, it gives you tools to fight back, make informed choices, and even save real money. And that kind of knowledge, it feels really good. Find an Arm and a Leg wherever you get your podcasts or@armalegshow.com hey everyone, this is Alex and I know this is an off week, but we wanted to unlock a bonus episode as a kind of goodbye to the Cat Drug Black market series. Our schedule is continuing uninterrupted. There's going to be a new mainfeed episode next week. This is just an extra piece that we felt was worth sharing with the main feed. And this is an interview with arguably the most important player in the FIP Warrior story, Robin Kintz. She created the FIP Warriors Facebook page back in 2019 after trying to get black market meds for her two sick cats, Henry and Fiona. I do want to say that many of the people we talk to for this story praise Robin for saving their cats lives, but also many people, including some of those who praise her, have a lot of negative things to say about her and about how she continues to run the FIP warriors group. Also, just as an FYI, we did this interview pretty early in our reporting, before we talked to a lot of admins that worked closely with her and before we really understood the commission structure and Robin stopped answering her emails not long after this interview was conducted. So she wasn't able to respond to some of the new information we gathered as the reporting process went on. But during this interview, we did know enough to press her on some of the big issues within the group. Complaints we'd seen from pet parents who came to the group for treatment, and I think they're helpful to hear. So we're gonna air a nearly uncut version of that interview. And the reason it's nearly uncut is because we did take a couple things out that would have been spoilers for episode three. And. And aside from changing the intro here, we're just going to air it as we aired it on the bonus feed. And I know that in a lot of bonus episodes, we cut in to the interview to sort of narrativize and give people some guidance in the direction of where the interview's going. But we wanted to sort of leave this one as raw as possible to give you a sense of, like, what this conversation was actually like, because it was uncomfortable at times, and we wanted you to hear the sort of direct confrontations we had with her because there are quite a few in this interview, and because this is a complicated story, and those moments of tension are where things feel most honest here. So here it is, our interview with Robin Kintz. If you want to hear more stuff like this, you can become a Premium member@hyperfixpod.com join. So, Robin, the first question I have for you, it's the easiest one I've got, is can you start by telling me your name and where you are speaking to us from?
- [06:58]
C
Yes, absolutely. My name is Robin Kintz, and I'm speaking to you from the Hudson Valley in upstate New York, where I live.
- [07:07]
B
Can you tell me a little bit about, like, your. Your relationship with cats historically? Were you always a cat lover when you got your first cat, that kind of thing?
- [07:17]
C
I have always been a cat lover. I begged my parents for a cat from probably the time I could speak and say cat. And when I was five years old, they relented, and I got to pick out a kitten. And she actually was with our family for 20 years before she passed. And I've just loved almost all animals my entire life. But cats have kind of come into focus as one of the main passions for me since this whole FIP journey began. But I have indeed, I think it's safe to say I've always been a cat person.
- [07:56]
B
Did you ever have a cat with fip?
- [07:58]
C
I did. I had two kittens with fip, and I've treated a third of my own adoptees since that's what started the whole FIP journey. I founded FIP warriors when my first two kittens became sick with fip and I had gone online to look for information, answers, help, support, and found very little other than the fact that Dr. Niels Peterson had at that point already discovered the antiviral that treats and cures fip. But I couldn't find a supportive community of cat owners who were using this treatment, bringing it in from China and helping each other. So I founded FIP Warriors Facebook group to fill that void.
- [08:49]
B
There is a thing I forgot to ask you about your cats, which is how many do you have now and what are their names and what are they like?
- [08:54]
C
I'm currently topped out at eight.
- [08:57]
B
Eight? Yeah.
- [09:00]
C
And in the world of crazy cat people, that's actually not a lot, as they will tell you. But I also have a husband who is allergic and asthmatic, so we're holding steady at 8. Their names are. Let's see if I can remember everybody in order. Tink is a female. She's our oldest cat. Balu is a male. He's second oldest. Fiona, she is one of my cured FIP kitties. Maisie is a female, Uli male, Beans male, Gracie female, and Filbert male. And Filbert is a cured FIP kitty who we took in as a medical foster to treat because his family couldn't do the treatment and we ended up keeping him. And he's actually a purebred Scottish straight, which is kind of a fancy breed. The rest of ours are all rescues or from shelters and spcas.
- [10:08]
B
I have to. I'm having to look up purebred Scottish straight because all my cats have been rescued. Oh, my God. It's like the cat looks like a porcelain. Porcelain. Like one of those little porcelain cat figurines. Oh, that's so cute.
- [10:22]
C
Yeah, he's very fancy and he knows it.
- [10:25]
B
When you started FIP warriors, was it just you or were there other people?
- [10:31]
C
Well, it was just me who founded the page. There were probably about four or five other folks that I was in contact with at that time that were the initial admins for the group. I would say probably three other people when it first started. And then within a few months it really grew because there had been nothing else of this ilk in the cat community or in the FIP community. There were other groups that were addressing the disease, but they were very anti bringing in the treatment via the black market from China. So it was quite discouraging. But I was lucky Enough to make contact with a couple of women in one of those groups who messaged me off to the side saying, hey, you know, we're treating our cats, we're bringing in the meds, it's working, we're going to help you out. And so they did. And the first two women that had reached out to me and helped ended up being the first two admins of FIP warriors.
- [11:31]
B
So can you just explain really quickly the structure of FIP warriors? If I have a cat and my cat is diagnosed with FIP and I need to get the drug and I come to you. Yeah. What happens? How does it work?
- [11:47]
C
So the first thing we do is we. You answer a few questions to be admitted into the Facebook group. And then once you're admitted into the group, if you have a sick cat, you're encouraged to make a quick post on the the page saying, I have a sick cat. Can someone please reach out to help me? Then we have a team of moderators. So briefly, we have moderators and we have admins. And the admins are the folks that basically connect to each person with a sick cat and advise and guide through the treatment process, which is 12 weeks and then the observation period, which is another 12 weeks. And at that point, if the cat's doing well, it's considered cured. But once you make your post, a moderator reaches out and basically based on your location, you will be assigned to a team, basically a care team that will consist of several admins and a moderator and usually an admin in training. And what we'll do is ask a whole bunch of for intake information that will tell us a lot about your cat symptoms. We look at blood work, how much you've been able to get done through vet visits, at which point we do our best to confirm the diagnosis. And based on the type of fip, as there are several different ways this disease can manifest, we will then look within our network of other people, we call all the cat owners parents, pet parents, we look within our network of treating pet parents to see if there's someone in the immediate vicinity that can spare a bit of the treatment so you can get your cat started usually same day that you reach out to us.
- [13:29]
B
I mean, this seems like it's a remarkably well established sort of intake process that you've developed. Was what was founding it look what did founding it look like? Was it like this from the beginning or is this something that built up over time?
- [13:42]
C
Founding it just looked like a handful of cat lovers who became friends online, just kind of looking to Support each other and help other cats that crossed our paths with the same situation. One of our first members was this lovely guy in Florida whose cat was also sick. I'm still in touch with him. He's now a cat dad with I think five of his own kitties and his cat was cured and is living a happy, healthy life. But it was not organized the way it is now. We were very grassroots, kind of figuring things out as we went and through over time and over the growth of the group. We're rapidly approaching 100,000 members in the main group, the US based group now. So the growth pattern kind of required that we grow up our process. As time went on and through the help of many amazing volunteers, we've gotten to the point where we are now where we have the process in place for intake and assigning to teams and finding emergency meds. We have 50 different state chat specifically for that purpose for reaching out and looking for local meds to start with or supportive vet recommendations. But yeah, it's been a process. It certainly didn't start out anything close to what it has become.
- [15:13]
B
So how do you go about sourcing.
- [15:15]
C
The medication at this point? There's a handful of open market suppliers that the group has worked with for several years now. The group is about six years old and there are a few suppliers that we've stayed with over the years because of the quality of their product. We have independently tested their product over time. We've done field trials before ever recommending their products to treating parents. So that again was a bit of a process, testing, trialing, seeing that things worked well. To be able to say with a fair level of confidence, this is something I would give my own cat and it will help your cat. The open market, everything comes from China. There are a couple of brands that are actually formulated in the US Now. We do not work with any direct shipments coming from overseas. The suppliers have set up US based warehouses and distribution systems. So there's, you know, everything is basically happening domestically.
- [16:33]
B
Okay.
- [16:34]
C
And many of them have their own websites. So our role has really become referring, more of like a referring type role to minimize the risks involved.
- [16:48]
B
What's the function of the admins in that, in that referral process? Oh, how does that work?
- [16:55]
C
Just to say these are the brand. Like we have a price list with a whole bunch of brands on it that come from a handful of the suppliers and each supplier tends to offer several different tiers of the medication. It's and the difference in price is tend to be based on whether or not they offer a relapse guarantee of the treatment. And what that means is if the cat goes through 12 weeks of treatment on the medicine and then it moves into the observation period based on clinical symptoms or have resolved as well as the blood work is where we would want to see it. And if the cat does happen to get sick again within that 12 week period of observation, certain suppliers will provide a second round of meds for either 50% of the full cost or completely free. And so what happens in terms of the pricing is that a brand that offers 100% relapse coverage, the prices of those meds will be higher. It's as though they have a insurance policy kind of baked into the price. But all the ones we work with are equally as effective. There are no, there are no notable quality differences or effect efficacious differences, effective differences.
- [18:19]
B
How long between. How long from the intake process to actually. For the, for the parent to actually get the medication?
- [18:29]
C
Usually within a few hours.
- [18:32]
B
Oh wow. A few hours.
- [18:35]
C
Mm.
- [18:35]
B
Holy moly. Can you, can you talk me through how the process of procurement for the parent works? Like how does the drug go from China to the marketplace to the parents?
- [18:52]
C
One example of a supplier that has their own websites would be that they, they ship, I have to think that they're shipping in bulk to a warehouse somewhere in the US and that when a parent orders through their website, they're shipping from within the US Directly to the parent. So once the parent starts treating, we will put them in our emergency state group chats. So the next parent who comes along, say there's somebody in Chicago who needs to start, we will have either a treating parent that we're aware of and we'll ask if they have an extra vial that they can sell the new parent. Or, or in some cases we have people actually strictly set up as med holders that will just keep a few vials on hand for the purpose of starting somebody in their area quickly. Most of the med holders are people that have already treated and cured their own cats and wanted to give back in some way. So meds from China to a supplier's warehouse, from the warehouse into the hands of individually treating parents. And then the parents are part of our network and we can just reach out within our network to get contact and see if they can spare or help the people in their area that might need to start right away. FIP is extremely fast moving in many cases and time is of the essence in terms of getting started as quickly as possible.
- [20:20]
B
In these circumstances, who is getting paid? Is it the med holder?
- [20:25]
C
Nope, it's the suppliers. The suppliers are being paid. Warriors is made up primarily of 100% volunteers.
- [20:34]
B
Okay.
- [20:34]
C
There have been instances in the past where people who are holding meds and shipping to assist these suppliers make some money. But at this point, it's almost entirely you're paying for a product, and the supplier is the one who is taking money off the sale of their product.
- [20:54]
B
Okay. This is not your standard medicine procurement process, as far as I understand it. Like, generally, if I'm getting medicine for my pets, I'm going to a pharmacist who then recommends stuff, and then I purchase it directly through the pharmacist who usually has it on hand. I don't know how they are. Excuse me, a veterinarian. I go directly to a veterinarian who tells me to go to a pharmacy or they have it there. And I. I don't know the regulatory rules around that, but I do know that there's a certain amount of regulation and licenses that need to be procured for kind of thing. How do you test these drugs to make sure that the brands are trustworthy, that they have what's supposed to be in them? Is there any testing being done?
- [21:42]
C
There's always been random testing that we've conducted. There are independent labs that will do the testing, and they will test for purity, for concentration, for ph, to make sure that everything is what it's supposed to be.
- [21:57]
B
Have you ever had an issue where someone in the group got a bad dose of GS or GC and, like, what do you do in that case?
- [22:06]
C
In the earlier days of the group, there was. Unfortunately, this was probably three or four years ago. Four years ago, I want to say one of the overseas suppliers went through some shakeup and started, I believe what happened was the scientist who was in charge of making the product split off, and the remaining person thought that he could handle making the treatment, and it turned out that it was not effective and cats did die, and it was absolutely awful. And unfortunately, there was very little recourse because of the fact that it was kind of this, you know, this unknown person very far away. It wasn't like anyone could really go after him. But since then, we've been much more on top of trying to ensure a safe product for all cats that do engage in this treatment. Foreign.
- [23:26]
B
This episode of hyperfixed is brought to you by Hellofresh. So if you can't tell, I'm very sick right now. I'm losing my voice. I have a cold. I'm congested. I'm exhausted. And if I'm being totally honest, I am not super stoked about spending hours cooking for my family. So that's why I use HelloFresh. They send Chef crafted recipes and fresh ingredients to your home. But this summer they have made their biggest menu upgrade yet. This isn't the HelloFresh you remember. It's bigger. HelloFresh has doubled its menu. Now you can choose from 100 options each week including new seasonal dishes and recipes from around the world. It's healthier. Feel great with an even healthier menu filled with high protein and veggie packed recipes. And it's tastier. Get steak and seafood recipes delivered every week for no extra cost. There's three times more seafood on the menu now at no extra cost. Discover new seasonal produce each week from snap peas to stone fruit, corn on the cob and more. This summer I have cooked my kids things like steak tacos with mango salsa, parmesan crusted trout and spicy miso rigatoni with bacon and I have yet to get a bad review from them. And I'll be honest, my kids are as picky as hell. The best way to cook just got better. Go to hellofresh.com hyperfix10fm now to get 10 free meals plus a free item for life. One per box with active subscription free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan. That's hellofresh.com hyperfixed10fm to get 10 free meals plus a free item for life. So the reason that we're talking to you so the premise of our show is that people come to us with problems. We try and answer those questions and we got a list. We got a question from a listener named Marlena whose cat was diagnosed with fip. Her vet sent her to the this was last year, her vet center, the FIP warriors group. Is that a common thing where a vet will basically subcontract a group of private citizens to be like, hey listen, I really need your guys help to like direct these people in the right place. Like is that common or is that unique to this particular thing?
- [25:54]
C
Or it's probably unique to this particular thing just because their hands were tied for so long. I have stacks and stacks of images where we've screenshot it. Of course I keep track of the stuff where the vet will say on the discharge paperwork to the parent. Contact FIP warriors for help. Refer to FIP warriors for the details of treatment. I am not aware of other diseases that are in this exact situation. I think this is probably pretty unique to sip. So.
- [26:32]
B
I'm sure you're aware of some of the detractors you have that are floating around the Internet. And one of the big complaints that they have is that admins, including yourself, have taken a profit, which I personally don't have a problem with. Like, I think that you are providing a service. I think that you should definitely get some kind of commission on these things. But I think people want transparency. And I'm wondering if. If that is the kind of thing that you'd be willing to do to let people know what you're making on these, who you're partnering with, why you're partnering with those people. Is that something that feels like, I guess I. Rather than try and put words in your mouth, I would just like to know what your response is to that, how you feel about that.
- [27:17]
C
I feel that it's too much of a gray area and there's too much inherent risk to really speak to that. I can tell you that things have changed so, so, so much since the early days of this group. Money was made in the past, varying degrees, by various people, but I'm definitely not going to expose anyone or any, you know, details about that. I think it's far too dangerous. There have been people that have gotten in trouble for being part of FIP Med distribution, and I just don't think it's a good thing to delve into.
- [28:11]
B
Okay, but I guess my question is, are people getting in trouble because of the commission aspect, or are people just getting in trouble because they are helping provide the drug?
- [28:21]
C
They were getting in trouble because it wasn't legal to be importing the drug and selling it. And this goes back several years. This is not anything that's gone on recently. It's probably worth pointing out that the loudest detractors were involved in the exact same activity they now are critics of. I don't know how important that is to people, but one thing I like to sort of keep in mind is that when people start really coming after you and criticizing you, it generally means you're doing something right. I can just tell you that we are almost 100% volunteer in warriors and that things have changed so, so much over the years and that whatever people are saying about us in a negative light is probably no longer true or accurate or even close to what we're really about and what we're here doing.
- [29:20]
B
So, I mean, you're. I know you're not going to name any names, and I don't expect that. But you're saying that people who are critical of fip, are also taking commissions from drug companies.
- [29:32]
C
People that are critical of FIP Warriors.
- [29:35]
B
Yeah.
- [29:36]
C
Have in the past. Absolutely. Profited. Absolutely.
- [29:41]
B
I guess the thing that I don't understand, and I can't, and I'm not going to push it, but, like, the thing I don't understand is what puts you at risk by talking about the commissions? Because the commissions. If people are getting in trouble for just distributing the drug, it doesn't matter if you talk about the commissions or not. You're distributing the drug, you're going to get in trouble. So, like, we're already talking about that, so why can't we talk about the fact that they're taking commissions and what the commission is? Because I think people are feeling cheated.
- [30:12]
C
Why would anyone feel cheated? Who's cheated?
- [30:14]
B
Because they're spending tens of thousands of dollars to save their pets.
- [30:18]
C
That's no longer the case at all. People are treating and curing their cats for under $1,000 most of the time now because of our group. The prices have come down exponentially since I treated my first two kittens. I paid $450 per vial from. For the meds I was getting from China. And we have brands now that are $24 a vial, and they're just, if not more so. So the. The falsehood that it cost thousands of dollars or even tens of thousands of dollars to treat this disease are just wildly outdated at this point.
- [30:56]
B
Okay, so that's just not a thing anymore. That was a thing a couple of years ago.
- [31:01]
C
That the costs that you just mentioned are not a thing anymore.
- [31:05]
B
Okay, but again, like, there is a commission being made. Right. Can I establish that as true?
- [31:13]
C
It depends. It's not across the board. And most of the suppliers are now directly involved in all of the shipping and payments and whatnot. Like that has moved back into the hands of the suppliers. So people in the middle making commission are down to barely any at all. And I don't even know what commissions people are making because I have taken myself out of that piece of the equation.
- [31:44]
B
How do you mean you've taken yourself out of that piece of the equation?
- [31:48]
C
By not shipping medication? By not taking commission.
- [31:51]
B
Okay, so you're not shipping medication anymore.
- [31:53]
C
Correct.
- [31:54]
B
Okay. There have been also accusations that there are certain manufacturers that were getting sort of preferential, Were getting preference in these. In fi. In the FIP warriors group, and they were paying for sort of promotion. And I'm curious if you have any response to that.
- [32:17]
C
That's not true. I'm not even sure what that's referring to.
- [32:21]
B
Interesting. Okay, so no, the, The. The admins or the founder, you of FIP warriors never took any money for promoting a specific drug manufacturer.
- [32:35]
C
What is referring to when exactly?
- [32:40]
B
That is a good question. I've seen a lot of people saying that they. That there are. That FIP warriors has business partners in certain drug manufacturers and that the FIP warriors would direct people back to those specific brands and I don't know the brands.
- [32:59]
C
Huh. This sounds like something you probably saw on Reddit that isn't true.
- [33:06]
B
I mean, I have seen a lot of people feel very. Feel very upset with FIP warriors and feel like they weren't treated very well, feel like they were overcharged. And I'm just trying to understand, you know, people who are saying that, you know, the commissions were like 50 of the drug, like Capella was sold for 80 bucks, and then 30% of it or 35% of it was go. Or 35, 30 or 35 was going to the admin who sold it. Like, I just. I'm just trying to, you know, be fair to those people who are making those accusations. And it doesn't seem. I mean, basically, I can tell you.
- [33:40]
C
Right now, Capella's $24 because we put pressure on that seller for years to drop the price. Capella is now $24 with zero commission.
- [33:51]
B
Okay.
- [33:52]
C
As far as I know. But like I said, I am not stocking or selling or shipping anything. So that doesn't apply to me personally.
- [34:02]
B
You know, there. There are. One of the. One of the great things about FIP warriors is that you provided a solution when there was none. Right. But the other. The, the obvious sort of flip side of that is that. But you're not within any sort of actual regulatory legal framework in that, like, you know, the only people who are vetting the admins are the other admins, I assume. Am I right about that? Like, is there any process in place to make sure admins aren't taking kickbacks or commission or overcharging for profit? Like, is there any way that you can supervise that thing? Or are we just. Or is it just sort of like caveat emptor, you know, buyer beware, kind of situation?
- [34:48]
C
Well, all of the, all of the, all of the treatment that we recommend, it's a fixed price set by the suppliers and always has been. That has just been the situation since day one. And in terms of commissions, if the suppliers wanted to build in commissions, that was up to them. It was never up to the admins. This is. These are the Arrangements, suppliers led with. And when they wanted help with shipping, they offered a way to make it beneficial to anybody who wanted to ship for them. I think the. Ms. Maybe the misinformation that's out there is that it was somehow different for warriors than for any other FIP support group and that the profits were somehow driven by something other than the suppliers creating these, these arrangements. So whatever, you know, if anybody has a beef with pricing or relapse guarantees, they should take it up with the suppliers. I mean, there's only so much we can be responsible for.
- [36:01]
B
I mean, I mean, I'm sure there's many more FIP groups besides FIP Warriors. It's just that you guys are sort of the biggest, biggest name in town. I can imagine that things that probably happen in other groups then get, then get credited to you, good or bad. And I mean, one of the things we did see is that there was an admin named Nicole Randall whose house was raided by the doj. She'd made millions of dollars off of selling FIP meds through the group. And were you aware of any of that happening? And do you think there are other people who are taking advantage of the group in that way?
- [36:35]
C
So from what I understand, she wasn't doing anything differently. Like she wasn't changing the pricing that the suppliers set. I know that she was shipping meds. I don't think anybody was aware of the volume perhaps of what she was shipping and in turn earning. I mean, I think the what's in the public record probably speaks best to her situation.
- [37:09]
B
Okay, but it was something that was done through your group and obviously they thought that it was like it was ill gotten enough that they would, that they had to rate her house. And I'm curious, like, do you think that she was doing anything untoward or do you think that she was doing the same thing everybody else does and just the DOJ didn't like it because of the volume she was working with?
- [37:30]
C
I mean, what I think about it probably doesn't really matter, but I think that the volume was probably the issue in her case. If I had to just hazard a guess.
- [37:42]
B
Okay, all right.
- [37:48]
C
You gotta. You have to bear in mind that without gray area activities, there's no way that the hundreds of thousands of cats that have been saved by the work of this group could have ever happened ever. So there are inherent risks that people have taken in order to make this group function, in order to save cats, despite the risks. So to the, you know, to the people that are worried about commissions and being Ripped off. I say look elsewhere for something to complain about. Is your, is your cat alive?
- [38:32]
B
Well, I think that, I think that the experience I had when talking to people who had engaged with FIP was that they were paying a lot of money. I mean, even a thousand dollars or less, it's a lot of money. I don't have that kicking around unless, you know, unless there's an emergency. And they were also saying, yeah, you know, the thing is that whenever I asked a question, my admin would stop responding. Whenever I questioned a cost or whenever I questioned a decision, I felt bullied, I felt pressured to spend money and, and I just didn't feel like my best interests were at. Were in mind. I felt like the financial windfall of, of selling the drugs was the best interest. And so I don't know how to.
- [39:24]
C
Address that without knowing who the admins were, who the parent was, the specific circumstances, the timing. That's not something we hear much of because we tend to give people almost 247 support and address every concern and every question. That's what this group is known for. So if there are a few outliers who had issues, I would need a lot more detailed information to be able to properly address those concerns.
- [39:54]
B
Okay. I mean, I do. I have seen a lot of people saying, do not work with these people. We do not trust them. And there was a time when a whole wave of admins were kicked out of the group and many of them have posted online because they were raising concerns about the practices, including payment, not testing, properly pushing products. Like what happened there?
- [40:16]
C
Oh, the people that were kicked out were also taking profits. So what happened there was that several of them were discovered to be testing in secret a brand of GS and not going through the established warriors protocols. And when they were caught, they flipped the script and tried to make it about money, which it never was. So there's again, a lot of misinformation out there. And that is probably the biggest story that was mistold.
- [40:49]
B
I mean, again, I don't necessarily think there's any problem with taking commissions. Like, I want to be clear, I'm not, I'm not saying that like that taking any commission or like being able to, like you're putting forth a lot of work. I'm not trying to, to minimize that. You know, you're putting forth a lot of work to try and keep these cats safe and healthy. But it seems like there are enough people who have made these concerns known that it feels not like a statistical aberration. And again, those, those admins who are kicked out of the group. I don't particularly care if they're taking commissions if they start their own FIP group. It's just that. But the thing that people were upset about is like very big markups and not great service and feeling like they were at the whims of an organization that they felt like they weren't able to get good communication from. And I will say, like, you're operating in this gray area. Like you've said, it's really difficult to do that when you are not, you know, you don't have the sanction of the government and you don't have a veterinary license and you are doing important work. But. But it does seem like a lot of people have had issues with VIP Warriors. And you. You're saying basically those people were just trying to sort of get a financial windfall as a result of that.
- [42:19]
C
I'm not sure I follow what you just said. What people are trying to get.
- [42:23]
B
Well, you were saying these people are testing this drug without your. The people who you kicked out of the. Out of the group.
- [42:28]
C
Oh, well, there have been people kicked out over the six years we've been in existence, but the ones that were kicked out that made the most noise and tried to make it about money were the ones that were secretly experimenting on cats.
- [42:42]
B
Okay.
- [42:43]
C
And rather than address what they were caught doing, they tried to turn this into a completely different narrative and to accuse people of behavior that they were engaged with in themselves. That's pretty much all I have to say about that. It's just.
- [42:59]
B
FIP warriors has also directed people to your business, Healthy Cat. Do you see that as a conflict of interest, running a for profit store and moderating the support group?
- [43:08]
C
I do not.
- [43:09]
B
Okay, great answer.
- [43:13]
C
My prices are lower than Amazon and Chewy, and I have yet to take a paycheck from Healthy Cat. And I am able to donate to support people and cats in need by having this business.
- [43:26]
B
Looking back, is there anything you wish you'd done differently as the group grew in size and influence?
- [43:33]
C
Probably been more careful about vetting the people that were brought in to the leadership team.
- [43:43]
B
That makes sense.
- [43:45]
C
Yeah. Some doozies. Some people with serious mental illness and personality disorders that have, you know, by the time that came to light, it was. Damage was being done and done after the fact.
- [44:02]
B
What do you want people to understand about the group and your intentions? Especially people who feel like they've been hurt by it or people who have expressed disappointment in the group or the way they. Their experience with the group?
- [44:16]
C
Anybody who has a problem can reach out to me directly. I will talk to anybody that wants to reach out to me with a complaint, a concern. I simply haven't been contacted with the problems that you are bringing up. To the degree that you're making it sound like there are all these negative issues, I don't think that the current version of FIP warriors is really. It's not working as you suggest. I think most of the stuff you're mentioning is ancient history for the group.
- [44:57]
B
When you were. When you were starting this, did you ever anticipate becoming, like, an FIP expert and a person who, like, understands drug. The ways that drugs are manufactured and shipped and things like that?
- [45:12]
C
I did not. Certainly never. Never, ever, ever anticipated it, nor planned on it or expected it.
- [45:22]
B
I mean, it sounds. Sounds to me like you're acknowledging that there are maybe some people that you feel like you shouldn't have worked with in the past or like things may not have been quite as cohesive or under control in the past, but things are kind of in a better place now and you feel like you have a much better handle on what's going on in the group. Is that right?
- [45:41]
C
That is right.
- [45:42]
B
Okay.
- [45:43]
C
Yes.
- [45:44]
B
I promise you we're not working on a hit piece. That's not the goal. But I just had to ask the questions that I. That. That people talk to us about.
- [45:53]
C
I mean, whoever these people are. I just, you know, it sounds like you're dredging up stuff that's years and years old and. And inaccurate in many cases. And inflamed in many cases. Blown proportion, not even. Ah, true in many cases.
- [46:14]
B
Got it.
- [46:14]
C
I. Maybe that's what you need to make this piece interesting.
- [46:18]
B
But I'm not trying to do anything sensational. I'm just trying to understand. I'm not. I like. You can listen to our show. I'm not a yellow journalist. I just had to ask the questions.
- [46:29]
C
Okay.
- [46:40]
B
Hyperfixed was produced by Emma Cortland, Sari Safra Sukanek and Amor Yates. This episode was engineered by Tony Williams. The music was by me. And also I spoke at the beginning and at the end. And I interviewed Robin Kintz, so I guess you could call me the host. Fun cat fact for the week is that cats have the same number of brain cells in their cerebral cortex as brown bears, even though brown bears are ten times bigger than. Than them. So does that mean that cats are.
- [47:08]
C
As smart as brown bears?
- [47:09]
B
And my cats are incredibly stupid. Does that mean that brown bears are incredibly stupid? All I've got is the fact that they have the same amount of brain cells. I don't know what that means. We'll have to get a neurologist on the show. All right, that is it for this week's episode. We will see you next week with the conclusion of the cat Drug black market series. Thanks so much for listening.
- [47:46]
C
Radiotopia from prx.