Presenting Proxy with Yowei Shaw: Alex and the Impossible Ask

Summary

Podcast Summary: Hyperfixed – Presenting Proxy with Yowei Shaw: Alex and the Impossible Ask

Podcast: Hyperfixed
Host: Alex Goldman (Hyperfixed) & Yowei Shaw (Proxy)
Date: September 11, 2025
Episode Theme:
This collaborative episode explores the emotional and practical difficulties faced by independent podcasters—specifically Alex Goldman and Yowei Shaw—in asking listeners for financial support in an unstable podcasting landscape. The episode, which is primarily an installment of Shaw’s podcast “Proxy,” investigates why asking for money feels so fraught, how creators can reframe these anxieties, and what approaches might actually work based on interviews with fundraising experts and real listener feedback.

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Episode Overview

Both Alex Goldman and Yowei Shaw are veteran audio journalists who have transitioned from large, well-resourced media outlets to scrappy, independent podcasters. Their new reality: constant, uncomfortable asks for listener support just to keep afloat. Through candid conversation, coaching from nonprofit fundraising expert Hailey Bash, and a revealing interview with a real podcast listener, they untangle emotional blocks, best practices, and the deeper community impact of listener-funded media.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Hard Reality of Independent Podcasting

• The Industry Shift ([02:18], [10:31]):
  • Alex reflects on the collapse of traditional podcast funding, a wave of layoffs, and how mid-size and narrative shows like “Hyperfixed” and “Proxy” must now rely on direct listener support.
  • “Without corporate dollars, without reliable ad revenue, how does a show like Hyperfix make enough money to stay afloat? Honestly, I don't know the answer…” – Alex Goldman ([02:18])
  • Both hosts admit to “hating” the feeling of fundraising—longing for the security and prestige of their former jobs at Reply All and Invisibilia.
• Unrelenting Emotional Pressure ([13:11], [13:57]):
  • Yowei: “I feel like a grifter sometimes… I really believe in my show, but I feel like a Bambi with shaky legs.”
  • Goldman and Shaw bond over failed telemarketing gigs in college, describing their discomfort and outright fleeing from rejection.
• Existential Stakes ([16:11]):
  • “If we don't succeed at asking for money... our shows will cease to exist. It's pretty terrifying.” – Alex Goldman

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2. Why Asking for Money Feels So Awful

Personal Hangups & Vulnerability

• Transparency as Double-Edged Sword ([15:25], [30:31], [31:26]):
  • Alex: “How do I feel okay with this? ... It feels like an insane level of ego to be asking for that kind of thing.”
  • The hosts struggle with the emotional line between “transparency” and “sounding pathetic” or “being a bummer.”
• Fear of Annoying Listeners ([44:45], [43:23]):
  • Alex recounts getting aggressive negative feedback after repeated asks and laments: “I feel like I had six months of runway, and then people were just like, I don't want to hear about this anymore.”

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3. Wisdom from Fundraising Expert Hailey Bash ([17:52])

a. Reframing the Ask

• Skill for a New Era ([22:00]):
  • Bash: “With funding cuts left and right… asking for money is a first aid skill that everybody needs to learn.”
• Asking as a Gift ([22:24]):
  • Giving is pleasurable and healthy for donors; successful fundraising builds community, not just resources.

    “You're actually giving them an invitation to get involved with a cool project… it releases the feel-good happy chemicals.” – Yowei on Bash’s argument ([22:24])

• It’s More Common (and Less Soul-Crushing) Than You Think ([23:03], [23:07]):
  • “More people donate than go to church or vote or any other civic or community engagement.” – Hailey Bash ([23:09])
• We Underestimate Success ([23:55]):
  • Research shows people underestimate how many will say yes (or how much they'll give), mainly because we’re embarrassed to ask.

b. The “Recipe” vs. “Brownie” Analogy ([31:27] onwards)

• Mistake: Focusing asks on the “cost of ingredients” (the recipe: production, finances, struggles)
• What Works: Focus on the “brownie”—the emotional, special experience only made possible by listener support.
  • “If you're always talking about the baking powder, the sugar, the flour, the eggs, nobody's mouth is watering. ...The brownie would be talking about the jellyfish and cool sharks.” – Hailey Bash ([31:47])

c. Dealing with “Desperation Vibes” ([37:37])

• Don’t let insecurity, sadness, or faux-modesty infect your request—people can sense it and will stay away.
  • Bash likens self-sabotaging asks to inviting someone to a party by apologizing for it before they arrive.
  • “Sadness is not the right way to ask… You have to tap into what is the thing that made you, Alex, want to go into debt to make Hyperfixed?” – Yowei Shaw ([38:49])

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4. The Listener’s Perspective: Interview with Danny Henn ([46:09] onwards)

• The Free-Rider Problem ([47:18]):
  • Podcasts feel free, and listeners are not trained to put them in their budget.
• Difficulty Telling Big from Small ([47:47]):
  • Even indie shows sound professional; listeners don’t always know which ones are “small businesses”.
  • “We're the lemonade stand of podcasting, basically.” – Yowei ([48:39])
• Transparency CAN Work ([51:02]):
  • Contrary to some expert advice, Danny admits that hearing the “real recipe”—the honest, vulnerable, even desperate details—made him want to support Hyperfixed.

    “I think he's being open, he's being vulnerable … I don't know if it's all going to work, and that's a little scary—which is perfectly reasonable.” – Danny Henn ([51:02])

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5. Emotional Takeaways & Refined Best Practices

a. The “Brownie” Matters

• Both hosts and their guest realize that supporters are won over not by desperation or guilt, but by being reminded what the show gives them—why it matters and how it makes them feel.
  • “It presents, like, a worldview that makes me feel a little less alone...” – Alex Goldman on what “Hyperfixed” offers ([34:38])
  • “If Proxy has helped you feel less alone, made you laugh, cry, feel things, helped you move through the world a little lighter with a little less confusion…That is the delicious gooey brownie you'll get to keep eating if you sign up.” – Yowei, closing pitch ([61:36])

b. Being Real (Without “Sad Vibes”) is Okay

• Balance vulnerability and positivity:
  • “I do feel like there's a component of trying to be honest about where I'm at. Not sounding desperate, but being realistic, but then also maybe reminding people of the reasons why they listen...” – Alex Goldman ([55:26])
• Haters gonna hate, but those who care, care deeply.
  • “Ignore them…If you really let those people govern how you approach this…that’s really scary. There's going to be naysayers.” – Danny via Yowei ([56:01])

c. Most Listeners Want to Help

• Listeners are “predisposed” to support the shows they love; they just need a meaningful “real impetus” (not just FOMO or guilt!) ([53:31])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the “Brownie” approach:
  • “If you’re always talking about the baking powder, the sugar, the flour, the eggs, nobody's mouth is watering. You have to talk about the delicious, gooey brownie that people will get to eat.” — Hailey Bash ([31:27])
• On the paradox of transparency:
  • “Transparency in theory is great. But she was like, 'I feel like y’all are collectively sharing the recipe, not the brownie.'” — Yowei ([31:26])
• Acknowledging fear with wit:
  • “Sometimes my calls were being recorded for quality assurance and they're like, why do you keep hanging up on people? … I get scared.” — Alex ([14:50])
• The vibe check:
  • “Is minimizing annoying people the point of life?” — Yowei ([29:11])
• Listener insight flips the script:
  • “He wants to know all about the recipe for the brownie.” — Yowei about Danny ([49:26])
  • “For me, … 'this is my last big shot' does help push [me to donate].” — Danny ([53:02])
• Concluding mutual encouragement:
  • “I feel much better now. I mean, not much better. I feel 30% better, which is a massive improvement over what I was feeling.” — Alex ([58:49])

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Important Timestamps

• [02:18] – Alex Goldman introduces the episode’s existential funding crisis
• [10:31] – Alex & Yowei begin their candid conversation on emotional angst with fundraising
• [17:52] – Introduction of fundraising expert Hailey Bash and her story
• [21:52-24:08] – Hailey reframes the emotional labor of asking for money
• [31:27] – The “recipe vs. brownie” metaphor and fundraising advice
• [37:37] – Advice on “vibes” and dealing with self-sabotage when asking for money
• [46:09] – Interview with listener Danny Henn: the “free rider” and transparency conundrum
• [51:02] – Listener’s (Danny’s) reaction to the “pathetic transparency” fundraising email
• [55:26] – Alex’s takeaways: balance honesty and vision instead of apologies
• [58:12] – Yowei demonstrates the new direct, positive ask for support
• [61:36] – Final direct pitch: “Let’s talk about the brownies...”

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Conclusion

This episode offers a simultaneously raw and uplifting examination of what it means to create—and sustain—independent, emotionally resonant journalism in an era of vanishing support. Through humor, self-doubt, expert advice, and community input, Alex and Yowei model vulnerability, resilience, and the messy but meaningful path to a sustainable creative life.

Final Message:
Be real, but don’t be a sad sack; remind people of the joy and real connection your work creates (the “brownie”!); don’t let negativity steer your approach; and trust that—sometimes—listeners will say yes, if you just ask them boldly and honestly.

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Further Resources & Links

• Proxy podcast: proxypodcast.com
• Hyperfixed: hyperfixedpod.com
• Hailey Bash’s “Accidental Fundraiser”
• Patreon for Proxy: patreon.com/proxypodcast
• Radiotopia and all mentioned podcasts can be found at radiotopia.fm

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This summary captures the emotional nuances, actionable insights, and direct quotes from the episode, providing a thorough guide for anyone interested in the present-day realities of independent podcast funding and the psychology—and artistry—behind “the ask.”

Transcript

[Alex Goldman]

Do you have a question that no one in your life can help with?

[Yowei Shaw]

Something that makes the people around you.

[Alex Goldman]

Go, yikes, What a weird question.

Well, freak here on how to do everything, we want to help you out. Each week we get fantastic experts to answer your questions.

[Yowei Shaw]

People like us, Poet laureate Ada Limone, bodybuilder Arnold Schwarzenegger, and rapper Rick Ross.

[Alex Goldman]

Season two just launched. Go listen to how to do Everything from npr.

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[Yowei Shaw]

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[Alex Goldman]

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[Yowei Shaw]

No one does.

[Alex Goldman]

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[Yowei Shaw]

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[Alex Goldman]

We need to find a way to restore the balance.

[Yowei Shaw]

And you had sex with my wife. So maybe. I don't know. No way.

[Alex Goldman]

What is wrong with you?

[Yowei Shaw]

Splitsville. Rated R. Now playing.

[Alex Goldman]

Hi, I'm Alex Goldman and this is Hyperfixed on the show. Listeners write in with problems big and small, and I try to solve them. But this week, Hyperfix, the show itself has a problem. And no matter what we try, we simply have not figured out how to solve it. So if you listen to independent podcasts with any regularity, you probably know that the podcast industry is not in the best shape. Over the last 10 years, the podcast industry expanded beyond anything that many of us could have dreamed of. And then the bubble burst. Advertising dollars started to dry up, corporate cash began shifting away from narrative journalism towards celebrity driven chat shows. And then one after another, all of our favorite audio shops began to close and our friends, some of whom I consider the best producers in the business, started getting laid off from their jobs. And then they got new jobs and got laid off from those. And then they got laid off from the jobs they got after those jobs. Hyperfix producer Emma Cortland has been laid off four times in the past three years. So what do we do? Without corporate dollars, without reliable ad revenue, how does a show like Hyperfix make enough money to stay afloat? Honestly, I don't know the answer, but recently one of my friends set out to answer this question. Producer Yowei Shaw is among the hundreds of people I know who have been laid off in the past couple years. You may know her as the one time host of a phenomenal show called Invisibilia. But when that show got canceled by npr, Yohei started her own independent podcast called Proxy, which is kind of like a sibling to Hyperfixed on her show, Yohei finds people with problems and then pairs them with the perfect person, or Proxy if you will, to address that problem. And since she was having the same anxiety about money, she thought, hey, maybe we should make an episode about this. So what you're going to hear today is the episode of Proxy where Yowei solves my problem. We're like a problem solving ouroboros. Maybe we'll just pass problems back and forth and we'll never run out of content. Also, please be sure to subscribe to Proxy. Mine is just one of a number of great episodes that Yowei's put together. Other episodes include one where Brian Reed, the host of S Town and Question Everything, tries to get over his incessant urge to correct his mother in law who has Alzheimer's. And in another she tries to help two friends who were in an up and coming band that was derailed by a band member and a relative's death. It's an incredible show. Yowei is a fantastic problem solver and an amazing proxy hunter. She's really got the goods. You can actually hear the hope return to my voice as this episode goes on. You can find Proxy wherever you listen to podcasts you [e-mail] but be aware, like me, you will probably hear Yohei at some point asking for financial support. All right, here is the Proxy episode Alex and the Impossible Ask. Thanks so much to Yowei. Thanks so much to Proxy and we will see you soon.

[Yowei Shaw]

So Alex, I ask this question of every guest. If you had to vocalize the sound of your emotional conundrum, what would it be?

[Alex Goldman]

Okay, I think that's about it.

[Yowei Shaw]

Welcome to Praxi. I'm Yowei Shaw, your emotional investigative journalist. Today, the case of the two sad chumps who desperately want to do anything. Seriously, anything but the one thing they need to do to survive. That's coming right up.

[Alex Goldman]

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[Yowei Shaw]

Hello. Alex Goldman.

[Alex Goldman]

Hi. Yoe Shaw. How's it going?

[Yowei Shaw]

I'm okay. I'm. Why are you laughing?

[Alex Goldman]

I don't know that. That. That. I'm okay. We sounded very qualified. It sounded like there was like an unspoken I'm okay, but in there that you just didn't say out loud.

[Yowei Shaw]

Well, that's a good segue because we are here today because we both need to solve the same problem.

[Alex Goldman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Yowei Shaw]

So you and I used to work at big media outlets. We had jobs with good benefits, regular paychecks, resources. You were hosting Reply All. I was hosting Invisibilia. These were established shows with big aud.

[Alex Goldman]

Yes.

[Yowei Shaw]

And then that ended.

[Alex Goldman]

Yeah. And now we're out in the wilderness.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yeah. So you've started this new show called Hyperfixed. I have this new show Proxy. Do you want to explain what hyperfixed your New show is.

[Alex Goldman]

My show is listeners write in with problems. It sort of doesn't matter what the problem is. It could be an enduring family mystery. It could be an interpersonal argument. It could be some annoying system that people have to navigate. And I try and help them with it. And in doing so, I hope that, like, I. And maybe they learn something about the world. And your show is Proxy.

[Yowei Shaw]

In some ways, I feel like Proxy. Not to be a gender essentialist, but it's. It's like the girl version of your show. Proxy is all about feelings and what is your emotional hang up and how can we make you feel better. Whereas your show, a lot of it has to do with getting actual concrete answers.

[Alex Goldman]

That's a very funny way to put it. Yes, that's true.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay, so we have these new shows that we are funding completely independently. And so, yeah, we both now have to ask for money all the time to survive.

[Alex Goldman]

Right.

[Yowei Shaw]

Like, for instance, as of today, we're kicking off the proxy fundraising drive to get to 1,500 paying Patreon members so we can keep going.

[Alex Goldman]

We live and die by patrons.

[Yowei Shaw]

But here's our Alex. I know from talking to you that we both hate asking for money.

[Alex Goldman]

Part of the reason it took me so long to get this show started in the first place is because I was like, I really want to partner with a production company who will bankroll this thing so I don't have to be asking people for money. I want to be able to fund this entirely off of ads. But that's just not the reality of almost any media these days. Like, that's just not happening anymore.

[Yowei Shaw]

And, like, I don't know for you, but, like, for me, I don't know what I'm doing. I feel like I'm annoying people.

[Alex Goldman]

There's something about it that feels, like, deeply. I don't want to say sleazy. It's really.

[Yowei Shaw]

Oh, it feels sleazy to me. I feel like a grifter sometimes. I'm like, oh, am I being a grifter right now? I really believe in my show and think it should exist, but I just. I feel like a Bambi with shaky legs. And also, the stakes are really high.

[Alex Goldman]

Right?

[Yowei Shaw]

You know, because if we don't succeed at asking for money, then our shows will cease to exist.

[Alex Goldman]

It's pretty terrifying. But so is the prospect of asking for money.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yeah.

[Alex Goldman]

You know, when I was in college, I worked at a telemarketing agency for a summer. My job was to, like, call people and say, hey, I'm calling on behalf of, you know, LGBTQ rights or whomever and ask people for donations. And I do not have that skill.

[Yowei Shaw]

Why were you not successful at it?

[Alex Goldman]

Because trying to convince people that they should spend money on stuff is like a thing that I desperately don't want to do. I remember very clearly calling someone one time and then being like, why would you think it's appropriate to call me during my dinner time on a Sunday evening? And I was like, I don't think this is appropriate. I am doing this because I need to live.

[Yowei Shaw]

I didn't even realize the extent of our similarities. I also worked in telemarketing. That was one of my gigs in college, calling alumni to donate to the university. And I was terrible at it. I get someone on the phone and be like, hi, this is Yowei. I'm so sorry to bother you. I'm so sorry for existing.

[Alex Goldman]

Sometimes I would like make the call and connect with someone and I could just tell by the tone of their voice that I was not going to make the sale and I just disconnect. I like, wouldn't even say hi, you know, when they like, this call may be recorded for quality assurance.

[Yowei Shaw]

Uh huh.

[Alex Goldman]

Sometimes my calls were being recorded for quality assurance and they're like, why do you keep hanging up on people? And I was like, I don't know. I get scared.

[Yowei Shaw]

Well, fate has decided that we are now stuck with a headset.

[Alex Goldman]

I know.

[Yowei Shaw]

And this time there is no end in sight.

[Alex Goldman]

Right? This isn't a summer gig.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay, so specifically, let's talk about what are some of the emotional questions we need answers to? I can say for me, I want to know what version of transparency is fun and brings people in and what version of transparency is pathetic and turns people off.

[Alex Goldman]

Right? That's a very interesting question because I have, I have defaulted to doing that. My questions are just like, how do I feel okay with this? I have this feeling, like, what makes you feel like you're worth spending money on? Like, how the unmitigated gall of asking other people to pay for you to do anything. It feels like an insane level of ego to be asking for that kind of thing. And a thing that I've been thinking about a lot in the past couple weeks is like, if things get really bad, I mean, they already are really bad, but if they get much worse, like, economically, the first thing people are going to stop buying is their monthly podcast feed. We are the discretionary spending.

[Yowei Shaw]

Absolutely. I've been thinking about this too, and.

[Alex Goldman]

I want to know how to tell myself and To a degree. Everyone else, hey, this thing is worth spending money on, no matter what. That's a really hard thing to feel in, like, a time where people feel desperate and scared.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yeah. Okay, today we are going to tackle the great question of our age, which is because everything is falling apart from public infrastructure to healthcare, to how we fund news and science, more and more of us are going to need to ask for money for all kinds of things. And so is there any way to do it that isn't soul crushing?

[Alex Goldman]

God, what a bleak question. This episode will determine whether the shows exist or not in the future.

[Yowei Shaw]

But no pressure at all.

[Alex Goldman]

No big deal.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay, I'm gonna go and see what I can find out.

[Alex Goldman]

This is exciting.

[Yowei Shaw]

Alex, how long has it been since we last talked?

[Alex Goldman]

Uh, you're gonna have to tell me. I don't. I don't remember the answer to that. It's been a while. It's been several months.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay. So for me, a lot has happened since then. I have talked to a lot of interesting people, and I wanna start with someone that I found helpful for me.

[Alex Goldman]

Okay.

[Yowei Shaw]

Her name is Hailey Bash.

[Hailey Bash]

How are you doing today?

[Yowei Shaw]

Wow. You are the second person ever to ask me that question in an interview. She wrote this book, Accidental Fundraiser, and she trains people just like us, who really don't want to raise money, but have to. And the weird thing about Hailey is that she is very, very psyched about fundraising. She used the literal words really fun to describe asking for money.

[Alex Goldman]

Oh, that's crazy.

[Yowei Shaw]

So 15 years ago, Hailey was living in San Francisco, working as a software engineer, and was disturbed, not surprisingly, by the intense inequality she was seeing around her on the streets. But she also felt powerless. What could she, one person, do, right? But one day she goes to an organizing meeting and someone asks Haley, do you want to help fundraise for local social justice orgs? And even though Haley is terrified to ask people for money and hasn't really ever done it before, she says yes.

[Alex Goldman]

Okay.

[Yowei Shaw]

And Hailey is so nervous, she doesn't want to ask people directly or in person. So she just sends a BCC email to 20 coworkers with a link, and she's. She's panicking.

[Hailey Bash]

I am so embarrassed to go to work tomorrow. Everybody is going to be gossiping about, oh, look at how greedy or presumptuous Hayley is.

[Alex Goldman]

Wow. She takes it harder than I think we do. And we're asking for money for ourselves. It's not like we're being altruistic here.

[Hailey Bash]

But I woke up the next day and I'D already hit my fundraising goal.

[Alex Goldman]

Oh, dang. Okay.

[Yowei Shaw]

In that moment, Hailey is hooked.

[Hailey Bash]

It felt like I had agency for the first time. You know, I felt very powerless. In a lot of ways, the tech world is so behemoth. I'm a newcomer here. I just met these coworkers. But to see that, you know, despite all that sort of negative self talk, that I was able to accomplish my goal so quickly, which, I mean, it goes to show that I was really low balling what I could raise. I learned more about goal setting later on, but it did give me the feeling of, like, oh, I can make a difference.

[Alex Goldman]

Okay.

[Yowei Shaw]

For Haley, this early success tapped into an appreciation for fundraising that was lying dormant. She grew up in a farming town in the Midwest, and as a kid, she was always getting dragged to some spaghetti dinner or pancake breakfast, you know, if someone got sick and needed help with medical bills, that sort of thing. And for Hayley, this is what fundraising is all about. Building community.

[Hailey Bash]

There was kind of this unofficial, you know, especially for the families where it was the raising was because of tough times. You know, there was kind of like support circles around them.

[Yowei Shaw]

What do you mean by support circle?

[Hailey Bash]

People just surrounding and hugging.

[Yowei Shaw]

Mm, that's beautiful.

[Alex Goldman]

I mean, that's another thing about me is that I've always hated asking for help. I've always felt like, no, I should be able to do this on my own, which is like, a very toxic and actually pretty harmful way to think.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yeah, same. Okay, well, today, Haley is an executive director of Donor Organizer Hub, this organization she founded to help people fundraise for under resource causes. And something she's always doing in workshops is dealing with people's hang ups about asking for money, because people have a lot of them. One person said in a training, apparently, they'd rather pluck out each of their individual nails than fundraise.

[Alex Goldman]

Yeah. Okay, that sounds right.

[Hailey Bash]

You know, if you feel that way initially, it's like, congrats, you're human. I still get the butterfly flutters when I ask people for money.

[Yowei Shaw]

Really? Yeah.

[Hailey Bash]

Yeah, I think.

[Yowei Shaw]

And that never goes away.

[Hailey Bash]

It never goes away, I think.

[Yowei Shaw]

Shoot. Okay, so the first thing Haley tried to do with me is reframe what asking for money means. And she had a whole list of facts and arguments. I'm going to hit you with some of the ones that stuck out to me. Okay, first, reframe with funding cuts left and right.

[Alex Goldman]

Yep.

[Yowei Shaw]

No universal health care. An affordability crisis. Haley argues that asking for money is a first aid skill that everybody needs.

[Hailey Bash]

To Learn a lot more of us are going to have to step up for ourselves and for people that we love.

[Alex Goldman]

That makes perfect sense. It doesn't make it less bleak to me. It does make me feel slightly less alone.

[Yowei Shaw]

All right, second reframe from Haley. When you ask for money, you are giving a gift.

[Alex Goldman]

Okay. I'm interested to hear the explanation for that.

[Yowei Shaw]

Hayley says that most people think of asking for money as a favor, but you should think about it from the point of view of the person being asked, because you're actually giving them an invitation to get involved with a cool project. Plus, she said there's lots of research that shows people feel good when they give money. It activates the reward system in people's brains. It releases the feel good happy chemicals. And over the long term, it even improves mental and physical health. It can lower blood pressure, reduce stress, boost self esteem, combat depression.

[Alex Goldman]

I don't know if I would use this in my messaging exactly, but that does help. This will salve my anxiety a bit.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay, good. We're getting somewhere. Here's the third reframe Hailey made.

[Hailey Bash]

Are you ready for a mic drop moment?

[Yowei Shaw]

Yoi, she said asking for money is secretly the most popular thing ever. She gave me this fact. More people donate than go to church or vote or any other civic or community engagement.

[Alex Goldman]

Okay, well, that is a mind blower. I would not have expected that.

[Yowei Shaw]

Why is it mind blowing?

[Alex Goldman]

I just think about sort of the schedule on which I donate money, and I do a decent amount when I can, but, like, I'm just surprised at sort of that massive scale.

[Yowei Shaw]

I was really surprised by this, too, and it made me feel more hopeful, like, oh, lots of people donate. It makes it feel like less of an imposition to ask.

[Alex Goldman]

That's it. It makes it feel more normal.

[Yowei Shaw]

Here's the last reframe that stuck in my brain. Haley said that research shows that we underestimate the number of people who will say yes to us and how much money they will give to us. Mainly because we're embarrassed.

[Alex Goldman]

Oh, okay. I mean, honestly, we're getting to the really encouraging stuff. I'm sorry if I seemed under enthused at the beginning, but yeah, I appreciate this.

[Yowei Shaw]

Well, Hailey demonstrated this lesson by flipping the script and doing this role playing thing where she asked me for money. Alex, I'm going to do it with you right now. If you consent.

[Alex Goldman]

I do.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay. So, Alex, let's say I write a weekly newsletter reviewing synths.

[Alex Goldman]

Ooh, I'm already on board.

[Yowei Shaw]

So you love this newsletter. You live for My articles about how to build modular synths at home.

[Alex Goldman]

I simultaneously feel, like, very called out by this and very comforted. It's like, you know me too well. But also it's like, oh, I'm home.

[Yowei Shaw]

Well, okay. You love this newsletter, but it's going to go under if readers don't give. But because I'm a fearless synth newsletter writer, I'm going to ask you for a bold and ambitious but not undoable amount of money. How much money comes to mind?

[Alex Goldman]

I would say $75 a year or, like, 10 bucks a month.

[Yowei Shaw]

What are the reasons you would say yes?

[Alex Goldman]

Because I'm getting information I can't get elsewhere. Probably because I've developed a relationship with the author, that kind of thing.

[Yowei Shaw]

Any other reasons?

[Alex Goldman]

Because I can afford it, and I feel like things like that should exist.

[Yowei Shaw]

And are there any other reasons why you would give?

[Alex Goldman]

I mean, I suppose maybe for some kind of bauble or benefit, but, I mean, the podcasts that I pay for, I often do not avail myself of all of the benefits.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay, what are the reasons you would say no?

[Alex Goldman]

What are the reasons I would say no? That's actually much harder. Either I can't afford it, or it doesn't interest me enough, or I'm already supporting other things that take up a significant chunk of my income.

[Yowei Shaw]

Any other reasons you would say no?

[Alex Goldman]

Not that I can think of off the top of my head.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay, so this is the part where I'm trying to be Hayley right now. What did that exercise teach you about asking for money and what it feels like to be asked?

[Alex Goldman]

It taught me that, like, I'm, like, pretty willing to give and that it's much easier to get me to donate to stuff that I thought it would be.

[Yowei Shaw]

Did that do anything for you or not really? It did.

[Alex Goldman]

It moved the needle a little bit because it made it feel like, oh, okay, well, I mean, I have so little problem doing this, and I like supporting things that I care about. Maybe I should be a little more chill.

[Yowei Shaw]

That can be the secret title to this episode. Maybe we should be more chill. Okay, so I want to tell you about this other thing that Hailey did with me, because it was really funny, but also disconcerting. There were times when talking to Haley where it felt like I was being inducted into a cult, especially when she.

[Hailey Bash]

Would say things like, what if fundraising is living into exactly the purpose of why you have proxy tea?

[Alex Goldman]

That that kind of language is really tough for me. It just sounds so insincere, and so it sounds very corporate. Speak to me.

[Yowei Shaw]

But I also totally understood when talking to her why I would want to join this cult. I felt like I was in a chair, and Hailey was, like, cheerfully breaking me down.

[Alex Goldman]

Okay.

[Yowei Shaw]

She'd ask me questions like, what are you hoping to overcome? What do you want to be courageous about? What's in your control?

[Hailey Bash]

Do you have control over whether they're busy?

[Yowei Shaw]

No.

[Hailey Bash]

Is it likely that people think you're uppity for asking for money?

[Yowei Shaw]

No.

[Hailey Bash]

Are people likely giving when they shouldn't be?

[Yowei Shaw]

No.

[Hailey Bash]

What happens if you take away that agency from people?

[Yowei Shaw]

Maybe it's condescending.

[Hailey Bash]

The fear of uppity becomes realized.

[Yowei Shaw]

Hailey, Alex, I'm going to put you in the chair.

[Alex Goldman]

All right, Put me in the chair.

[Yowei Shaw]

You're in the chair. So, Alex, what's your worst fear if you ask for money?

[Alex Goldman]

My worst fear is that people will not only not want to give me money, they just won't want to listen to the show anymore.

[Yowei Shaw]

How likely do you think this is going to happen?

[Alex Goldman]

I think that you're going to tell me that it's not super likely, but, like, in my head, it's like, if I ask more than once a month in a more meaningful way than just saying in the end of the episode, like, hey, you know, we've got a premium membership. If I do it, like, more than once a month in any meaningful way, people are just gonna be like, go away. You are so annoying. What is your problem?

[Yowei Shaw]

Is minimizing annoying people the point of life?

[Alex Goldman]

Wow, that's a really big question.

[Yowei Shaw]

I feel like I'm doing a terrible job at this because I have all of the same fears. When Haley did this with me, though, she flipped the whole question around in.

[Hailey Bash]

A nice way, let's say six months from now. Yowei, I'm so sorry. The unfortunate news is proxy was not able to fundraise the amount needed to sustain itself, and so you have to announce closure to your listeners. Do you think your listeners might be annoyed that you didn't ask for money, that you didn't say you needed support?

[Alex Goldman]

I mean, that's very fair, but it's like. It's just a really tough balancing act.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yeah. Now for the lesson that completely flips the way I've been asking for money and the way you've been doing it?

[Alex Goldman]

Mm. I can. I can hardly wait.

[Yowei Shaw]

Alex, you sent this earnings report email back in May. Do you remember the one I'm talking about?

[Alex Goldman]

Yes, I do.

[Yowei Shaw]

So this is that email where you break down the business model for making money in podcasts and how you hyper fix where you're at six months in with audience growth, membership, subscription and ad revenue, and how far you have to go to be sustainable. Can I have you do a dramatic reading of one paragraph?

[Alex Goldman]

Yes.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay. I send it to you.

[Alex Goldman]

Oh, I love doing dramatic readings, especially of my own writing. I've agonized over whether or not to publish this. Well, agonized is a little strong, but I've definitely waffled. I think that openness and honesty, even at a level that makes me uncomfortable, is to some degree what people like about my work. I also genuinely want to help people understand the cost of making real narrative journalism in 2025, after the advertising market is contracted, after companies like Gimlet have all cashed out, I feel very confident that there's a way forward. It's just taking longer and requiring me to take on more financial liability than I'd hoped. And things could definitely turn. But I could also have to go get a real job instead of telling stories on the Internet. And if I do, hey, I had a good run of almost 20 years and I feel very fortunate.

[Yowei Shaw]

So I shared your email with Haley and she thought there were parts of it that were great. Like, transparency in theory is great.

[Alex Goldman]

Uh oh.

[Yowei Shaw]

But she was like, I feel like.

[Hailey Bash]

Y' all are collectively sharing the recipe, not the brownie. A lot of talk of, you know.

[Yowei Shaw]

It'S hard, and it is hard.

[Hailey Bash]

Like, I don't want to, you know, minimize how hard it has been these shifts have been for you all. But it's like, it's hard to be an independent podcaster out there. And it just all kind of feels like, ooh, okay, so it's hard to pay your bills, y'.

[Yowei Shaw]

All.

[Hailey Bash]

That sucks. I'm so sorry. Versus, like, I am a participant of something bigger, more beautiful. It's connected in my day to day routine. Churches, they call it tithing, right? Like religious communities, they ask for a certain percentage of your income, they pass the bucket, they give you the gift of God, right? And I'm not saying you have to have the stakes of, like, God.

[Alex Goldman]

I think I get it. I think I get it.

[Yowei Shaw]

Her point is, if you're always talking about the baking powder, the sugar, the flour, the eggs, nobody's mouth is watering. You have to talk about the delicious, gooey brownie that people will get to eat. Like, say you have a fundraising campaign to save the aquarium. If you're focusing on the recipe, you're going to talk about saving the staff. You got to pay rent, property taxes. But Haley says The brownie would be talking about the jellyfish and the cool sharks. Like, that's why people are going to give to save the aquarium.

[Alex Goldman]

I understand. I get what. This makes perfect sense. I do think that, like, me talking about the difficulties and stuff is very in line with my, like, constant apologizing for doing it. It's like me being like, I'm sorry, but we really need this because of this, this important thing. Whereas I think what you're saying is I should just be like, hey, here's the great benefit of doing this.

[Yowei Shaw]

My mind was blown by this, and I was not entirely convinced. But let's just go with it for a bit. Alex, do you have a proudest or favorite moment from hyperfixed?

[Alex Goldman]

I don't know if I necessarily have a proudest moment, but there's, like, these little. I feel like there's always just, like, little touches where I'm just like, oh, I love this. I'm so glad that I get to be a part of this thing. A perfect example would be the most recent episode we did. It was a guy who came to us and was like, hey, I have aphantasia, which is the inability to create images in your mind's eye. Like, if someone says, imagine an apple, you see nothing abstractly. You know what an apple is? You don't. You can't visualize an apple. And this guy had this condition. But the thing that. The thing I really liked about that conversation was there's this incredibly human fear this guy had that if his dad died, he would forget his dad. But, like, I feel like I should be able to think about his face.

And I just can't.

You know, the whole reason Mitchell wanted to fix his aphantasia was because he wanted to do that magical thing everyone else seemed to be able to do to carry their loved ones around with them. And in particular, he wanted to carry his dad. So after our interview, I was just like, oh, that's really touching and so utterly relatable.

[Yowei Shaw]

What would be the brownie here for the listener?

[Alex Goldman]

Ugh, that's tough. More episodes like that one.

[Yowei Shaw]

What is that episode doing for people?

[Alex Goldman]

Oh, man, you're really putting me through the paces today. Uh, I'm only speaking for myself here. It presents, like, a worldview that makes me feel a little less alone, if.

[Yowei Shaw]

It makes you feel any better. I was also just like. I don't know how to answer that, Hailey, because, like, you know, it's, like, fundamentally hard to put yourself in someone else's shoes, right? And also, it feels like A little egotistical.

[Alex Goldman]

That is hard.

[Yowei Shaw]

It feels like you're writing a grant. Like, here's all the impact, the measurable ways that this show is helping people.

[Alex Goldman]

Yeah, I don't know. I don't think about the show as. As, like, helping people. I'm sure that I've done some service journalism here and there that's made a difference, but I think of the show more in terms of, like, this will make them feel something. And I suppose that's helpful for me.

[Yowei Shaw]

If I had to first talk about a moment, a favorite moment, it's hard to choose one, but I would say in every successful proxy conversation, there's this, like, moment where the tension in the room gets released just a bit. And it can come from someone saying, I'm sorry that happened to you, that shouldn't have happened to you, or, you know, someone sharing a similar experience to be like, I see you. I get it.

[Danny Henn]

Jesus, fuck you, crisis. My first thought here, because, like, I have terrible layoff stories that I've been told that I've seen where people just, like, show up and their emails are disabled or the doors locked, or, like, they come and, you know, their fate is decided by which color card they pull out of a box. Like, there's crazy shit that I could tell you about your story is the least human story I've ever fucking heard. Like, that is horrifying. And I am so sorry that this is what happened to you, because this is just like a series of poor decisions where this company decided that you were not a person and that you didn't matter, and that's not okay. But I just honestly want to apologize on behalf of all people, professionals, for how that person acted and how the company empowered that person to act.

[Alex Goldman]

Thank you.

[Yowei Shaw]

I appreciate that. So Haley is saying, if you can remind people of these rare, special moments and things that you're doing for listeners that exist exclusively because of the podcast, then thinking about it not existing might be more painful to listeners. As if you were to say, suddenly, no more brownies for life. Never. Okay, here's the last thing that Haley told me that I want to talk about. She said, to watch the vibes.

[Alex Goldman]

What does that mean?

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay, so, Alex, one of your hangups was worrying about being egotistical, feeling bad about asking when people don't have as much money these days. That whole hang up of, like, do I deserve money? Hailey is like, that is just faux modesty, and it's not helping.

[Hailey Bash]

I think when we have fears of embarrassment, we prepare for ourselves, for rejection ahead of time, and we try to shortcode it for people to reject us.

[Yowei Shaw]

She compared it to asking people to go to a party. So, Alex, if I were to ask you, hey, there's this party happening this Friday, but it's probably not gonna be that fun. I don't know how many people are gonna be there. And, like, you probably have more important things to do. Would you wanna come to my party?

[Alex Goldman]

Uh, okay. Fine. Fair. Fine. No.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay. Besides being insecure, Hailey said that we both seem very sad, and that is also not the right energy to bring to fundraising.

[Alex Goldman]

Okay, yeah, but I mean, that's also just, like, my default. I gotta get over that.

[Yowei Shaw]

I think Haley says sadness is not the right way to ask. You have to tap into what is the thing that made you, Alex, want to go into debt to make hyper fixed? Like, what lights you up about the show?

[Alex Goldman]

Untangling problems is so exciting for me. I love doing it. So being able to answer questions that people have and being able to make the world feel a little more mappable, all of that is very exciting to me.

[Yowei Shaw]

For me, you know how you said earlier that your journalism isn't really about helping people? For me, I would say that is my kink. Like, I love to be useful, and I am convinced that emotional investigative journalism is special and important, and I love helping people report on their feelings. It feels like a magic trick. Like, yes, you can go to therapy. Please, keep going to therapy, everybody. But, you know, your therapist isn't going to scour the world of social science to see if there's an insight that would be useful for you. They're not going to look for the exact right stranger who has shared experience that would be useful for you to talk to. And then on a more macro level, I just feel like we're not taking emotions seriously enough. I feel like we've reached the point in the culture where we're like, yes, we have feelings and we need to regulate them, but what are the specific underlying emotional dynamics driving personal problems, relationship problems, social problems, political problems? I feel like that's a lens and layer that often gets overlooked in journalism. That's my thing.

[Alex Goldman]

Yeah. Okay.

[Yowei Shaw]

I feel like, a little nerdy when I say these things.

[Alex Goldman]

No, I think that this is all very useful. I'm feeling for the first time, like, okay, maybe I should just swallow all of this goofiness and be a normal person.

[Yowei Shaw]

After the break, any progress we've made goes out the window. We have a fundraising catastrophe. That's when proxy returns.

[Alex Goldman]

Foreign. Alex, how you doing?

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay. So the other day you said something scary happened with fundraising. We talked briefly about it. But walk me through what happened because I don't really understand.

[Alex Goldman]

All right, well, let me try and explain. Explain it to you. So, like, I have talked to people who tell you how to raise money, and I've been doing it a variety of ways. You know, I ask on social media every once in a while. I will put maybe a minute long thing at the beginning of the podcast, reminding people that we're independent and asking them to support us if they can. I'll put things in the credits about what kind of bonus stuff they will get. Another way. I've been trying to monetize and I hate. God, it feels so icky in my very soul to talk about monetizing, but I mean, that's just like where we're at as an industry. So another thing I've been trying to do to monetize is we've partnered with a company called Pod Roll and basically they say, hey, what if we throw an episode of another show down your feed that will appear after your most recent episode? So it's basically like you're giving ad space to other podcasts in the form of having them be the second episode on your feedback and then the rest of the feed continues normally. And the feedback from our listeners on all of this has been resoundingly negative. We released the second part of a three part series earlier this month and I put an ask at the beginning of that. And like, the hostility for that, it wasn't anything that I hadn't done before, but the hostility to it was like really strong and it really spooked me and I don't know what I did differently necessarily.

[Yowei Shaw]

That fucking sucks. I'm sorry, have you gotten negative feedback like this before about asking for money?

[Alex Goldman]

No, I don't feel like I had. I feel like I had six months of Runway or something and then people were just sort of like, I don't really want to hear about this anymore. And I'm wondering if it's just like they find me grading, which I don't know if there's a cure for that.

[Yowei Shaw]

Let's not go there yet.

[Alex Goldman]

And I mean, for what it's worth, we can see how many people sign up on what day so we can roughly calibrate what's working and what's not.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yeah.

[Alex Goldman]

And if it had been a thing where like we got massive conversion at that moment, like it was like, suddenly a bunch of people signed up, I would be like, well, okay, there's a Vocal minority of people who are annoyed. But also, I am proving materially that this works.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yeah.

[Alex Goldman]

But I did not see that.

[Yowei Shaw]

And what are they saying exactly?

[Alex Goldman]

They're saying, like, I can't believe I had to sit through another hyper fixed ass for money. I wish that it wasn't so long. Or I wish that it was this or that.

[Yowei Shaw]

Wow. Your listeners take a lot of ownership over your feed.

[Alex Goldman]

I generally think that, like, people who feel passionately about a show, even if it's like they're really mad about something, it means they care.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yeah. And so have you asked for money since? Since getting this response.

[Alex Goldman]

I said, you know, sign up to get bonus episodes and discord access in the credits of this week's episode, but not really.

[Yowei Shaw]

And what are you gonna do about the next episode? Are you gonna ask?

[Alex Goldman]

I'm not going to ask.

[Yowei Shaw]

You're not gonna ask?

[Alex Goldman]

No.

[Yowei Shaw]

Damn. Okay, this is spooking me a little bit too.

[Alex Goldman]

I'm sorry.

[Yowei Shaw]

No, no, no, it's okay. This is where we're at. And do you know what you're going to do?

[Alex Goldman]

I haven't exactly figured out what I'm gonna do right now. I'm in a holding pattern.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay. I am sorry this is happening. And I am going to try to find something useful for you.

[Alex Goldman]

Well, thanks so much, Yowei. Let me know if you need anything. Okay. Hello, you.

[Yowei Shaw]

So, Alex, last time we talked about. You told me about this fundraising debacle where you got spooked by listeners getting mad at you for asking money and you were holding off on fundraising because you didn't know how to, like, proceed, even though you need to keep asking for money.

[Alex Goldman]

Yes.

[Yowei Shaw]

Well, since then, I ended up having a really illuminating conversation with someone about exactly the dilemma that you're having. And I think I have answers.

[Alex Goldman]

Oh, my God. I'm very excited because I feel like I'm bad at this.

[Yowei Shaw]

So, funny story, but when I was talking to Hailey at one point, she said, well, I can tell you anecdotally why Alex's pitch isn't working. And that's because my spouse is a big hyper fixed fan and has not been moved to give to the show. Like, he doesn't understand why he needs to.

[Alex Goldman]

God, come on.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay. So Haley's spouse, his name is Danny Henn.

[Alex Goldman]

Okay.

[Yowei Shaw]

And I didn't even know if he would say yes to talking. Cause it's like a fundamentally kind of awkward ass. But Danny was down to be honest about it all.

[Alex Goldman]

Well, it is kind of an interesting situation of being the person who's not doing the quote, unquote good thing.

Look, as much as I am anxious about what it means to be honest about my ask, I really want to know the answer here.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay, so Danny is a small business owner. He manufactures pots and pans. And he says he's actually thought quite a bit over the years about why he hasn't given to any podcast yet, even though he listens to them a lot. And he has a couple theories.

[Alex Goldman]

Okay.

[Yowei Shaw]

Number one, podcasts are free.

[Alex Goldman]

It's a free rider problem. It's a free good out there.

[Yowei Shaw]

So Danny doesn't live under a rock. He's noticed that there have been a lot of changes in our industry in the way podcasts can and can't be funded, but he's been getting podcasts for free all these years, and he hasn't been trained to put podcasts in his monthly budget yet.

[Alex Goldman]

Right.

[Yowei Shaw]

He does support two Patreons right now, two extremely small niche projects, a data visualization project and a cookbook reviewer. But when it comes to podcasts, Danny says it's hard to tell who is big podcasting and who is small podcasting because they can sound really similar, and they all show up on the same app. And he doesn't want to give his few extra bucks a month to podcasts that are already massively successful and raking in the profits because they don't need him. He wants to give to small podcasts where he feels like if he didn't give, they might go away.

[Alex Goldman]

And who could blame him?

[Yowei Shaw]

When I heard Danny say this, it felt like kind of the curse. A curse for us because, like, we have these standards and years of training from working at Invisibilia and Reply all and other places. So we make podcasts that sound like they could be big podcasting and. And sound like we have a lot of resources, even though we don't.

[Alex Goldman]

Yeah.

[Yowei Shaw]

When really, like, we're the lemonade stand of podcasting, basically.

[Alex Goldman]

Yes.

[Yowei Shaw]

So Danny says, yeah, just be clear about that.

[Alex Goldman]

I would also sort of approach it from a, like, marketing perspective of, like, we are the little guy that needs your support. We are different from these other big podcasts or podcasting companies or whatever. We are doing this project in a different way.

[Yowei Shaw]

So that was his second reason for why he doesn't give. Third reason. And this is where shit kind of gets controversial. Danny was like, I want to know all about the recipe for the brownie. He wants to know about how much ingredients cost, your signature way of baking the brownie, what pan you're using, how much are you selling the brownies for? How do you even make it in the cold, hard brownie business?

[Alex Goldman]

Oh, my God, I'm more lost than ever now.

[Yowei Shaw]

I was like, danny, you do know that you're directly contradicting the fundraising expert in your family? And he was like, yeah, I'm sorry. I'm just telling you what I. What I think and feel. And the other thing that happened was, like, when Danny said this, I was like, what more transparency do you want from Alex? He just did that earnings report email in May, and I was kind of getting annoyed, Honestly, on your behalf. I was like, I appreciate your event. Come on, man.

[Alex Goldman]

Yeah, Danny, get his ass.

[Yowei Shaw]

And it turns out Danny had missed your email.

[Alex Goldman]

Oh. Ooh.

Well, that I may have missed.

[Yowei Shaw]

So I sent him your email.

[Alex Goldman]

Did it move him?

[Yowei Shaw]

Before I tell you his reaction, I'm gonna tell you my honest reaction to your email, which I have not told you yet. Okay. So I was very impressed and grateful for your transparency as a fellow podcaster, but I have to tell you, I was kind of like, this is pathetic to be like, woe is me. Poor me.

[Alex Goldman]

Yeah, well.

[Yowei Shaw]

And personally, I've been trying to get away from that vibe. Trying to get away from, like, all the numbers and being a bummer. So I asked Dani, didn't you find the vibes annoying or kind of pathetic in Alex's email?

[Alex Goldman]

Sorry about that. Yes, A perfectly reasonable question.

[Yowei Shaw]

And he was like, no. If anything, it made me want to give more.

[Alex Goldman]

I think he's being open, he's being vulnerable. He's being like, I don't know if it's all going to work. And that's a little scary, which is perfectly reasonable.

[Yowei Shaw]

I hashed this out with Danny because I think that I'm having an outsized, negative reaction to your email. You know, like, when something bothers you about you, and then you see someone that, like, reminds you of your wound, and then you're like, ugh, get me away from this person.

[Alex Goldman]

Yes, I do. I know exactly what you're saying.

[Yowei Shaw]

But Danny was like, no, this exactly scratches my itch. This is exactly what I needed.

[Alex Goldman]

Huh?

[Yowei Shaw]

He got to the end of the email and he was like, yeah, I'll sign up.

[Alex Goldman]

I've never been closed off to it. It's not like I'm trying to, like, you know, viciously protect my pocketbook from any of these expenses, but it is kind of like, without some real impetus, and, like, maybe right now this is my real impetus.

[Hailey Bash]

Right, right.

[Yowei Shaw]

Being interrogated about why you don't give.

[Alex Goldman]

Yeah.

And that's not typical for a listener.

Oh, now I'm more confused than ever.

[Yowei Shaw]

It was very confusing for me because my real question this whole time is, like, how transparent should I be with where my show is at and my feelings about it? You know, like, in this fundraising campaign I'm doing right now, should I be realistic with my Patreon member goal, or should I ask for what I actually need to make the show sustainable? I talked about all this with Danny. You know that I'm willing to do almost anything to make the show work because I love it so much. I believe in it. Also, I'm working all the time, and it's, like, really hard. I work almost every night, every weekend, and I never see my friends and family, and I feel like I'm definitely taking years off of my life because of the toxic stress and lack of sleep. I've used all my savings. I'm really shooting my shot here, and I'm scared. And for Danny, he was like, that's what I needed to hear.

[Alex Goldman]

For me personally, giving, like, this is my last big shot, I think that does help push. And, you know, if you can start your fundraising drive here with one. I mean, that's. You know, I value your podcast. And now, obviously, you know, not everyone gets to talk with the podcaster and talk through these, you know, thoughts and fears, but, like, having that full context, you know?

Sure.

Yeah. Convinces me.

[Yowei Shaw]

Wait a minute. Did I just get your vote?

[Alex Goldman]

I got my vote.

[Yowei Shaw]

Oh, my God. Wow. I wasn't even gonna try to get you to sign up for my patron. I was just gonna try to get you to give to Alex's show.

[Alex Goldman]

That's very kind of you.

[Yowei Shaw]

Basically, the way that I've been dealing with the vibes question is to just not be real about my feelings on the show when I make my fundraising asks, and to do it sideways with, like, a wink, because I'm like, I don't want to be a bummer, but, like, talking to Dani, I'm like, oh, me being real about my feelings when I'm not even, like, making a pitch to you, that was the thing that did it.

[Alex Goldman]

I mean, I guess a question I would ask you is, like, if at the end of this, you don't find a sustainable path, would you be more upset that you didn't share the whole thing?

Right.

That you didn't put it all out there when it was your chance to put it all out there?

[Yowei Shaw]

But, you know, I was like, danny, were you already gonna support our shows when you said yes? To this interview?

[Alex Goldman]

Well, I. I think I wouldn't. I wouldn't agree to it unless I was open to it.

Right.

I also, like, I don't want to be that person who's like, you know, the freeloader.

[Yowei Shaw]

Danny was like, I was probably predisposed to give.

[Alex Goldman]

Okay.

[Yowei Shaw]

But he said, so are your listeners. They are also predisposed to support your shows because they're listening to you. They're signing up for this experience.

[Alex Goldman]

That's a good point. Damn. Danny's bringing sage wisdom.

[Yowei Shaw]

Give it up for Danny. Okay, so, Alex, let's zoom out. Where are you at now?

[Alex Goldman]

I mean, still terrified. I still hate asking for money, but, like, I feel like I have a direction at least.

[Hailey Bash]

Really?

[Alex Goldman]

I do feel like there's a component of trying to be honest about where I'm at. Not sounding desperate, but being realistic, but then also maybe reminding people of the reasons why they listen, as opposed to just being like, if you don't do this, it's the end of my career as a journalist.

[Yowei Shaw]

And as for your fundraising debacle, the listeners who got mad at you, I talked to Danny about what happened and how you got spooked. And he was like, fuck the haters.

[Alex Goldman]

Or in his words, ignore them. I think if you really, like, let those people govern how you approach this, you're like, I don't know. That's really scary. There's going to be naysayers. There's going to be people upset about whatever, and let them.

All right, yeah. Yes. I will just be more resolute and maybe, like, a little more positive.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay. So here's where I'm at. At the end of all this, I feel less bad about asking for money. Hailey's reframes have helped me, though. I think it's still hard to think about. I'm giving listeners a gift by asking. I think the gift is the actual podcast, but whatever. I think I am going to be more transparent about the recipe and where things are and not worry so much about being a bummer. I also try to talk about the brownie more, and because of that, I don't feel like a terrified mouse telemarketer anymore.

[Alex Goldman]

Yeah, I think that the brownie thing actually has really helped.

[Yowei Shaw]

Ring, ring.

[Alex Goldman]

Like, I need to talk.

[Yowei Shaw]

Ring, ring.

[Alex Goldman]

Hello?

[Yowei Shaw]

Oh, Alex, I think you're getting a call.

[Alex Goldman]

Yeah. Hi, this is Alex.

[Yowei Shaw]

Hi, is this Alex Goldman?

[Alex Goldman]

Yeah.

[Yowei Shaw]

This is Yowei Shah from proxy. How are you doing today?

[Alex Goldman]

Oh, my God. I'm doing great. Thank you so much.

[Yowei Shaw]

You're a fan of the show? Right.

[Alex Goldman]

Yes, I am.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay. And you know how you were feeling alone and panicked with your feelings about asking for money? Well, the whole point of the show is to help you report on these confusing feelings and help you get a little less stuck. Oh, okay, listen, we've started to sell some ads, but they're a drop in the bucket. And we do have around 400 paying Patreon members right now, which is amazing, but that doesn't cover the costs of making the show, which is why we need to get to 1500 paying Patreon members this month to keep the show sustainable for year two. So, Alex, what do you. What do you think?

[Alex Goldman]

Oh, my God. Yoi. You're very good at this. Hold on. I'm signing up.

[Yowei Shaw]

Wait. Wow. I really didn't have to try that hard. I was gonna try.

[Alex Goldman]

Well, you gave it. It was good. And, like, I'm predisposed. Right.

[Yowei Shaw]

I guess for all the listeners out there, the question is, imagine if both Hyperfixed and proxy exploded in the sky, never to be heard from again. Wouldn't that be a sad, cold world?

[Alex Goldman]

It would be a sad, cold world.

[Yowei Shaw]

But also we'd go out with a bang because we tried. Okay, I think my work here is done.

[Alex Goldman]

Wow. Damn. Good work, dude. Thank you very much, Joey. I feel much better now. I mean, not much better. I feel 30% better, which is a massive improvement over what I was feeling.

[Yowei Shaw]

That was Alex Goldman, the host of Hyperfixed. Listen wherever you get your podcasts and consider supporting the show by becoming a premium user. Thank you to Haley Bash of Donor Organizer Hub for giving us advice. She's the co author of the book Accidental Fundraiser. We'll have that link in her show notes. And thank you to Haley's spouse, Danny Henn, for deciding to not be a podcast freeloader anymore. And if you get something out of this show, consider joining the proxy patreon starting at $5 a month. Just go to patreon.com proxypodcast okay, guys, I'm gonna give it to you straight. As some of you know, I started proxy last year because I got laid off and NPR canceled my old show, Invisibilia. From the beginning, I knew it was gonna be a long shot. In fact, a bunch of people I respect in the industry, even some friends, told me I couldn't make an independent podcast work today for a couple reasons. Number one, advertising revenue for podcasts and media is down hugely. And to sustain a podcast with ad dollars, we'd need to reach hundreds of thousands of people. Which brings me to number two. It's notoriously hard for Audioverse podcasts to find their audience. There isn't a good recommendation algorithm, and I don't have bags of marketing cash to spread the word about the show. But here I am a year later and we're doing it. I used my savings, I got a loan, I started a Patreon, and since last May, we've made 20 episodes and 13 exclusive premium episodes. Episodes about the mental toll of layoffs, the emotional dynamics of support groups. WTF is up with the inner narrator in our heads? Band drama, caring for a loved one with dementia, on and on, and against all odds, we are finding our people. We've charted at number two in science on Apple podcasts. We've made it into the top 200 podcasts in the world. I believe in this show. I know lots of other people do too. Emotions rule our world and we need to rigorously report on them. But in order to make a year two in a way that's sustainable for me, we need to get to 1500 paying Patreon members. Currently we're at 400, which is amazing. And recently we got some grants, which is also amazing. But it still doesn't come close to what we need. This year of Proxy was possible because I had part time production help early on. And you'll get to hear an ambitious project we did together coming up that I'm really excited about. But for most of this year, it's been mainly me making the show with an editor who edits a handful of hours a week. And I make my husband mix the show for free. So that's me doing the research, looking for proxies and experts, scheduling and prepping questions and conducting interviews, cutting audio clips, writing scripts, producing, editing and scoring in pro tools, and a million other tasks in any halfway normal podcast. This is work done by several people and for me to continue this work, I need help. This is why we need to get to 1500 paying Patreon members. Because with grants, that'll cover the cost of making a year two and allow me to get some part time production help. It's an ambitious goal for us. I'm not gonna lie. I was told that maybe it's too ambitious, but I'm taking Danny's advice and being honest about what we need. Alright, that's. That's enough recipe. Let's. Let's talk about the brownies. If you join our patreon starting at $5 a month, your first brownie is. Well, you've already tasted your first brownie. If Proxy has helped you feel less alone, made you laugh, cry, feel things, helped you move through the world a little lighter with a little less confusion. That is the delicious gooey brownie you'll get to keep eating if you sign up. 2nd Brownie Patreon members get exclusive premium episodes and ad free episodes. Plus you get to join our chat. Third Brownie Anyone who has an annual membership by the end of this month long campaign will get an original magnet made by me. I love making magnets. If you are able to annual memberships really help us because more of your support goes directly to us than monthly credit card fees. You get to eat all Those [e-mail] ProxyPodcast and of course to our early Patreon supporters. Thank you for getting us here so far. This episode was edited by Tim Howard, mixed by Kyle Pooley and produced by me with help from Charlie Klein. Music in this episode by Tim Howard and our theme music is by Breakmaster so Cylinder. Special thanks to the Independent Media Initiative, the Berkeley Greater Good Science center and the John Templeton foundation for supporting the show. Proxy and Hyperfixed are proud members of Radiotopia from prx, a network of independent, creator owned, listener supported podcasts. Audrey Martovich is the Executive Producer of Radiotopia. Yuri Lozordo is the Director of Operations, Discover Audio with vision@radiot. As always, you can follow us on Instagram, ProxyPodcast and I'm oueshaw. Get in [e-mail] thanks for listening. I am so grateful to everyone who's been tuning in who's commented, shared, wrote in and we've got some real bangers coming up for you during the drive about estrangement, doppelgangers and more. See you next episode.

[Alex Goldman]

Radiotopia.

[Yowei Shaw]

From PRX.