Presenting: The Dream - Babies Not Having Babies

Summary

Hyperfixed Podcast Episode Summary: "Presenting: The Dream - Babies Not Having Babies"

Release Date: July 3, 2025

In this gripping episode of Hyperfixed, titled "Presenting: The Dream - Babies Not Having Babies," host Alex Goldman delves into the harrowing real-life consequences of the post-Roe legal landscape on individuals seeking abortions. Featuring an in-depth interview with Charlotte Eisenberg, a young political journalist from North Carolina, the episode uncovers the extreme measures anti-abortion activists employ to prevent women from exercising their reproductive rights.

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Introduction to The Dream

At the outset, Alex introduces Charlotte Eisenberg, setting the stage for a profound exploration of how institutional and societal forces intertwine to control personal choices. Charlotte's story is not just a personal narrative but a representation of broader systemic issues affecting countless women across the United States.

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Charlotte's Early Life and Struggles [12:27 - 14:04]

Charlotte begins by recounting her upbringing in Gastonia, North Carolina, a small, impoverished town grappling with pollution and economic hardships. Raised in government housing by a single mother with five children, Charlotte's early life was marked by community support but overshadowed by personal trauma.

Charlotte Eisenberg [14:27]:
"My mom had her first child when she was 15, so I recognized that she probably also wanted to live some of her own life outside of her five children."

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Trauma and Pregnancy [14:33 - 15:40]

At 11 years old, Charlotte endured brutal sexual abuse, leading to multiple rapes over four years. At 15, the trauma culminated in her becoming pregnant. The ensuing miscarriage, occurring during a high school exam in an empty basement, served as a pivotal moment, compelling her to escape her abusive environment.

Charlotte Eisenberg [15:40]:
"I thought that I was pregnant, but I wasn't sure. I had regular periods at that point and I had missed it and I felt very sick."

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Involvement with Anti-Abortion Movement [16:00 - 24:27]

In the aftermath of her miscarriage, Charlotte sought solace online, using platforms like Twitter to share her experiences. Her vulnerability resonated with anti-abortion activists who swiftly recruited her as a poster child for their cause, despite her lacking direct experience with abortion. Charlotte became a mouthpiece, portraying her miscarriage as a consequence of failed abortion, a narrative imposed upon her.

Charlotte Eisenberg [22:08]:
"I told the story of my rape, of my abuse, and then of my miscarriage and how badly I felt after having my miscarriage."

Her tenure with the Progressive Anti Abortion Uprising (PAAU) exposed her to manipulative tactics and false equivalencies between issues like euthanasia, the death penalty, and abortion, aiming to blanket all "life ethic" concerns under one umbrella. The organization's internal culture mirrored cult-like control, enforcing conformity and suppressing dissent.

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Breakdown and Departure from PAAU [24:27 - 30:27]

Charlotte's growing disillusionment with PAAU's hypocritical and abusive practices led her to voice concerns about organizational mismanagement and discriminatory practices. Attempting to address these issues resulted in hostile confrontations, culminating in what she describes as "struggle sessions" reminiscent of Maoist tactics, designed to break her spirit and enforce submission.

Charlotte Eisenberg [29:28]:
"A struggle session?... Basically in reference to what Mao's government did in communist China, where you would have a meeting with people, your superiors, when you've done something wrong, and they would berate you for it publicly."

Faced with relentless harassment and threats, particularly targeting her Jewish identity, Charlotte made the difficult decision to leave PAAU quietly. This departure set the stage for the unprecedented harassment she would subsequently endure.

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The Escalation of Harassment [37:38 - 61:32]

As Charlotte transitioned to a semblance of normalcy—working at a brewery, preparing for university, and rekindling her personal life—the specter of her past affiliations loomed ominously. Unbeknownst to her, Kristin Turner, a high-ranking member of PAAU, orchestrated a campaign to monitor and disrupt Charlotte's efforts to terminate her pregnancy.

Charlotte recounts a series of invasive encounters, including unexpected appearances at abortion clinics by PAAU members, persistent harassment through phone calls and texts, and orchestrated legal threats aimed at deterring her from proceeding with an abortion.

Charlotte Eisenberg [61:02]:
"I get a call from him [Randall Terry] and I'm like, I'll answer the phone. So I pick it up, and as soon as I do, Randall's like, don't go through with it, sweetie. I'll adopt your baby, sweetheart. Honey, it's gonna be okay."

The relentless pursuit culminated in a terrifying encounter where Charlotte was forcibly taken into police custody based on a fraudulent affidavit claiming she was suicidal and a danger to herself. This baseless legal action underscored the sinister lengths to which anti-abortion groups would go to control and punish women like Charlotte.

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Forced Psychiatric Evaluation and Self-Managed Abortion [61:32 - 94:40]

Inside the harrowing environment of a psychiatric ward, Charlotte faced disbelief, judgment, and invasive questioning designed to undermine her mental stability and autonomy. Despite the facade of concern from authorities, the underlying intent was to intimidate and control her decision-making process regarding her pregnancy.

Realizing the futility of seeking help within a corrupted system, Charlotte opted for a self-managed abortion—a risky but necessary choice given the hostile environment. The procedure, carried out alone in her childhood bathroom, was fraught with fear, physical pain, and the haunting remnants of psychological trauma inflicted by her past experiences.

Charlotte Eisenberg [94:38]:
"And it's the loss, I think, particularly of that potential future of me being a mother. That was hard because I do really want to be a mother."

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Aftermath and Reflections [94:43 - 103:04]

Post-abortion, Charlotte grappled with the emotional and psychological aftermath, reflecting on the systemic failures that allowed such a traumatic experience to unfold. She highlighted the impunity with which anti-abortion groups like PAAU operated, their ability to manipulate legal systems, and the broader societal neglect of women's autonomy and well-being.

Charlotte's resilience shone through as she sought to transform her pain into advocacy, channeling her experiences into journalism and activism aimed at exposing and combating the pervasive and violent anti-abortion movement.

Charlotte Eisenberg [102:24]:
"I think that I am a much more resilient person than I gave myself credit for for a very long time."

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Conclusion: A Call for Awareness and Change

Alex Goldman closes the episode by emphasizing the urgent need for societal and legislative reforms to protect women's reproductive rights and autonomy. Charlotte's story serves as a stark reminder of the real and present dangers posed by extremist movements willing to infringe upon personal freedoms through intimidation, legal manipulation, and emotional coercion.

Alex Goldman [87:08]:
"There are people who have had these experiences and just have to live with it because the system doesn't care. And just that I've been able to, like, platform this story, I think, just makes it worth telling."

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Key Takeaways

• Systemic Control: Anti-abortion groups have developed sophisticated and coercive methods to control and punish women seeking abortions, extending their influence into legal and medical systems.

• Psychological Trauma: The intersection of personal trauma and institutional abuse exacerbates the suffering of women like Charlotte, highlighting the need for compassionate and supportive healthcare environments.

• Resilience and Advocacy: Despite overwhelming adversity, individuals like Charlotte demonstrate remarkable resilience, transforming their experiences into powerful advocacy for change and awareness.

Notable Quotes

• Charlotte Eisenberg [14:27]:
  "My mom had her first child when she was 15, so I recognized that she probably also wanted to live some of her own life outside of her five children."

• Charlotte Eisenberg [16:00]:
  "I thought, oh, this has to happen now. I have to decide right now."

• Charlotte Eisenberg [29:28]:
  "What's that, another cult thing?"

• Charlotte Eisenberg [94:38]:
  "And it's the loss, I think, particularly of that potential future of me being a mother. That was hard because I do really want to be a mother."

• Charlotte Eisenberg [102:24]:
  "I tapped into it and I used it to do all these things that without it, I just would not be able to do."

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This episode of Hyperfixed not only chronicles Charlotte's personal ordeal but also serves as a critical examination of the broader societal and legal challenges surrounding reproductive rights. Through her narrative, listeners gain insight into the insidious tactics of extremist movements and the profound impact they have on individual lives.

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For more stories like Charlotte's and to submit your own experiences, visit hyperfixedpod.com. Follow Alex Goldman and Jane Marie on social media to stay updated on future episodes and join the conversation on unraveling the complexities of the issues that keep us hyperfixed.

Transcript

[Jane Marie]

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[Unknown Host]

This episode of Hyper Fixed is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates pricing coverage match limited by state law not available in all states this episode of Hyper Fix is brought to you by mood.com Look, I'll be honest. Things are pretty bad out there right now. The world is unpleasant. Dealing with reality is frankly not where I'm at at the moment. So can you blame me for wanting to find some THC gummies to help turn my brain off so that I don't have to think about it for a couple hours at the end of the day? And did you know that there's an online cannabis company that ships federally legal THC right to your door? And they found a way to combine THC with carefully selected functional ingredients to target nearly every mood and health concern you can think of. Not just deep depression at the way late stage capitalism keeps us working all the time, even when we're not actually at our jobs. I'm talking about Mood.com's incredible line of functional gummies and you can get 20% off your first order at Mood.com with promo code HYPERFIXED. Forget one size fits all supplements that only get you high. Mood's functional gummies are optimized to kick in in as little as 15 minutes and take you to the mood you're looking for, which in my case is complete catatonia. Best of all, not only is every Mood product backed by a 100 day satisfaction guarantee, but every as I mentioned, listeners get 20% off their first order with code HYPERFIXED. So head to mood.com to find the functional gummy that matches exactly what you're looking for and let Mood help you discover your perfect mood. And don't forget to use the promo code hyperfixed when you check out to save 20% on your first order. Hi Jane, how you doing?

[Jane Marie]

Hi. I'm doing really weird.

[Unknown Host]

Okay.

[Jane Marie]

Is that an answer you get often?

[Unknown Host]

No, that's an answer I never get. I usually get good or I Usually get. Well, here's my problem.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, I'm just doing weird. I moved a couple days ago, so I'm in the middle of a move still. I have a broken foot.

[Unknown Host]

Are you able to move your. Are you able to unpack at all or are you just like, totally.

[Jane Marie]

No, I'm laid up and so I know that I just need to stay sitting down. It's very hard for me to be forcibly chilled. Forcibly.

[Unknown Host]

You must be losing your mind.

[Jane Marie]

I am. I am. I'm having like. I'm sleeping at odd hours. I'm having nightmares all over the place. My house is just full of boxes. I.

[Unknown Host]

You are doing weird.

[Jane Marie]

I'm doing real weird. I'm doing really weird. And no, the weirdest part is the house that I live in now was my very first apartment in Los Angeles when I moved here in 2011 from New York City. Literally the exact same thing.

[Unknown Host]

Bizarre. How did you end up even looking at?

[Jane Marie]

Was on like Trulia or Zillow or one of those apps and I was like scrolling through. I had to make a really quick move and I saw it and I was like, oh, that's my house. Oh, wait, that's my house. Hi.

[Unknown Host]

Hi.

[Jane Marie]

You're my friend. Yeah, you're my friend to our audience. We talk all the time on the phone and we don't record those phone calls.

[Unknown Host]

Oh. Another important note for our audience.

[Jane Marie]

Yes.

[Unknown Host]

Is little known fun radio fact is that Jane and I went to the same high school a year apart. But did not know each other. But can reference everything. Everything. We know all the same people.

[Jane Marie]

It was a dinky high school too. Just for context, it was like 400 students.

[Unknown Host]

So the fact that we didn't know each other is absolutely insane.

[Jane Marie]

Weird. Very weird.

[Unknown Host]

Especially since I was like super annoying and never in class. Like, I figure you would have at least remembered me as like the annoying guy.

[Jane Marie]

Well, I was with the smokers and I was also hanging out with kids way older than me. And that's true.

[Unknown Host]

Like, you know my brother, but you who's five years older than me.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, God.

[Unknown Host]

But you didn't. You didn't know me.

[Jane Marie]

Sorry.

[Unknown Host]

But no, I'm good.

[Jane Marie]

I mix him and up in my mind all the time.

[Unknown Host]

Okay, well, that's messed up because was like a real piece of shit.

[Jane Marie]

Sorry.

[Unknown Host]

Okay. The reason that I have you here is because we are running an episode of the Dream on our show this week. And I just wanted you to be able to tell me what the Dream is.

[Jane Marie]

The Dream is a show that I produce and host about basically large scale, institutional, scammy type things, stuff that's going on right under our noses that you kind of just accept as fact in the world. Like, oh, there's pyramid schemes that operate legally in the United States. Why we don't know wellness. You know, you can just throw vitamins on the shelves at any drugstore and not have them tested by anyone and not have regulations on what's actually in the bottles. And sometimes people die, Whoopsie daisy. And then that's when the feds step in and say maybe we shouldn't be poisoning people with lead and all kinds of things. So that's kind of what we look at. We looked at multi level marketing for the first season. The second season was about wellness. The third season was about life coaches, which is another word for unlicensed therapists. And recently we've switched to a more weekly kind of episodic format where we just have different guests on every week.

[Unknown Host]

Can you tell me a little bit about the episode that we are running down the feed this week? I specifically recorded, requested we do this one because I just thought it was so intense. So what's this one about?

[Jane Marie]

This woman who faced dire consequences for considering having an abortion. And this is a story that I feel like a lot of news outlets have sort of missed is like, you know, we, we talk like, oh, women might be arrested or be punished or whatever for having abortions in the new post Roe world. And it's really happening. Like people are getting jailed and hospitalized, which is basically what happened to Charlotte, who you'll hear from.

[Unknown Host]

Charlotte was like a teen anti abortion activist and then she changed her mind. And when she ran afoul of the group of people she was working with as an anti abortion activist, they intruded upon her life in some of the most brazen and insane ways I've ever heard.

[Jane Marie]

Not only them, but like the authorities in her area. You know, she was taken into police custody for thinking about having an abortion.

[Unknown Host]

How did it feel reporting it? Like, what was it like talking to this woman who had dealt with this crazy experience?

[Jane Marie]

You know what was interesting is I was the first reporter she agreed to talk to.

[Unknown Host]

Wow.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Why did, what, what did you do.

[Jane Marie]

To break through, act like a normal person? I don't know. I found her. She made a video on TikTok of herself and her partner and this woman who had shown up at her consultation for an abortion in North Carolina at a Planned Parenthood and she just posted this video and you could see that this woman was just in the waiting room with them, which is not legal, and was trying to convince her to leave the consultation. And I followed her and direct messaged her and said, how is this possible? First of all, like, that your former pro life activisty friends are walking into your doctor's appointments and harassing you in your doctor's office. And a couple days later, she wrote me back and said, I've gotten a lot of interest from the press around this, but I don't feel like I want to go on, like, CBS or ABC or whatever. She didn't want to do that until I reached out and she said, I feel safe actually telling you my story. And I said, well, I hope I can do the story justice and that I treat you the way that you should be treated by the media and those around you. And also I understood, like, she had been victimized multiple times. You know, it wasn't just that these people showed up at her appointment. It wasn't just that she needed these healthcare services. Like, it was piling on. And I didn't want to be one of those people. I wanted our audience to hear this story of it sounds like this hysteria around, oh, bad things are going to happen to women now that Roe is overturned. And like, yeah, it is. These are not hypotheticals. This is really happening in real life. People are being detained and thrown into hospitals for thinking about having an abortion.

[Unknown Host]

So I think on that note, we should just let everybody listen to the episode. Where can people find your show and where can they find you?

[Jane Marie]

The dream is on all of your podcast platforms and we have a number of seasons going back to 2018, I believe is when we first came out. And it's a bingeable listen is what I've heard. People who are new to the show are like, emailing me two weeks later like, ah, where's more show? I just found out about your show two weeks ago and I'm already out of episodes. I can be found on all of social mediasjaneemarie, like, S E E like see Jane run. Which people? I thought people knew what that was when I created that handle. And then I was like, oh, I'm an old.

[Unknown Host]

I got it right away. But again, we've already established we are of similar ages.

[Jane Marie]

We are olds. But S E E J a N E M A R I E on all of the socials.

[Unknown Host]

All right, please stay tuned for an episode of the Dream called Babies not having Babies and links to the dream and Jane Marie Social media will be in our show. Notes foreign.

[Jane Marie]

I'm Jane Marie and this is the dream big trigger warning today. I'm not usually a fan of those, but. And this is going to sound like one of those I didn't care until it happened to me kind of things, but I was so upset by today's interview that the minute it was over, I ran to my car and sobbed. Yes, we all know I'm a crier, but this was different. So, anyway, you're warned you might be upset after this. This past year, I was working on a podcast called Outlawed, which aimed to inform people about abortion so they could have better discussions about it. And one thing that came up a lot is the criminalization of pregnancy, essentially like a fear that abortion could lead to jail for the pregnant person, or doctors fear that miscarriage could be mistaken for abortion, and if abortion's illegal, that person could face charges, etc. A lot of these fears are hypothetical, but there have been some cases already where this sort of thing is happening, and this is one of them.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

My name is Charlotte Eisenberg. I am from western North Carolina. Right now I'm a university student at Appalachian State, and I'm a political journalist. I write for PLUG clt, which is a Charlotte news source. And I do journalism, especially regarding reproductive rights issues in the area. And also I do some online advocacy and organizing. And I'm the vice president of college Dems at our school.

[Jane Marie]

Cool. Wow, you're doing a lot of stuff.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

What are you studying?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

I am studying technical writing and rhetoric with a minor in political science.

[Jane Marie]

Can we start with where you grew up?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah. So I was born in Lincolnton, North Carolina, which is a small town in western North Carolina. It is pretty much in the middle of nowhere. I grew up in Gastonia, which is right beside it. It's one of the most polluted cities in North Carolina. It's a leftover mill town, and it's very, very poor. I grew up in government housing in Gastonia. And my whole life I, in my childhood especially, I felt very much that I was raised more by my community and a series of babysitters and friends and friends, parents than I ever really was. Just by my mother, who was a single mom when I was a kid. I have four siblings.

[Jane Marie]

A single mom to five kids.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah, I'm the second youngest. My mom has five children. And I grew up around so many people that were, like, loosely connected to each other, which I always kind of liked when I was a kid.

[Jane Marie]

Was that because she was working?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

My mom was working a lot, but also she, I think, did a lot of trying to find herself when we were kids, because she was in her 20s when I was a child. My mom had her first child when she was 15, so I recognized that she probably also wanted to live some of her own life outside of her five children, which I can't even imagine having three kids at my age like she did, so.

[Jane Marie]

Sure. So tell me about, you know, your teen years. What were those like?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah. So When I was 11, I started being sexually abused by someone who was close to me. And I was raped repeatedly for four years throughout middle school and into my freshman year of high school. And when I was 15, in the fall of my freshman year of high school, I became pregnant from that sexual assault. And I ended up miscarrying that pregnancy at about nine or 10 weeks. In my school bathroom. My school was really tiny. I ended up managing to go to a early college. It was a very small magnet program. So I went to the basement of my school during exams, during my math exam, and nobody was down there for hours at a time at our school. And I had a miscarriage. And I didn't know what was happening to me. I thought that I might die at any second. And it was kind of a wake up call that I really needed to escape my abuse before it actually killed me.

[Jane Marie]

I'm really sorry that any of this happened to you. I just want you to know. Do you remember that day, what you were thinking was happening? Did you know you were pregnant then?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

I thought that I was pregnant, but I wasn't sure. Like, I had regular periods at that point and I had missed it and I felt very sick. But my mom told me that it was just anxiety because obviously at that point I was having pretty regular, like, anxiety attacks. And I just remember feeling very scared. And then when I started miscarrying, I started bleeding during my exam. And I got up and. And I thought, well, you know, I've heard before that sometimes when you're pregnant you bleed a little bit. But it just kept going and going. And I realized that I was probably having a miscarriage. So I just sat on the toilet and just like, looked at my hands. They were covered in blood at that point. And I saw like, tissue come out. And I really struggled with trying to figure out whether or not I should call anybody, but I decided not to because I was like, these people are going to have a lot of questions that I'm not ready to answer right now. So I just sat in there for probably an hour. And then I got up and I was still bleeding all over myself. And I went up to the front desk, and the nurse was like, oh, you got, you know, your period. You need to go home. I need to get, like, a change of clothes. And my mom came and picked me up and took me home.

[Jane Marie]

Did you tell your mom what was happening?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

No, because I. I was so scared that she would be mad at me, and I. I didn't know how to answer how I'd gotten pregnant. And I was so scared of what she would say because, you know, she got pregnant when she was 15, too, and she made it pretty clear that I should avoid being a teen mom.

[Jane Marie]

Charlotte and her family did try to bring a legal case against this person, but for all kinds of unfair reasons. Nothing came of it. Though he is a known quantity in their community.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

I think I would just be putting myself through hell and reliving something just for them to give him six months probation. And I don't think that's worth it.

[Jane Marie]

Right. Right. I think that that math you just did is, like, exactly what most women who have been assaulted do in their heads, you know?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Like, how much more am I going to suffer because of.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

I started posting online pretty much immediately after I had my miscarriage in the police report about what had happened to me, because I think, like, a lot of teen girls, especially, who grew up with the Internet, I was using Twitter, kind of like a diary. I had, like, a hundred followers, you know, at that point, a couple hundred. And I was just, like, talking into the void. And there were people who were like, you know, what happened to you was horrible, and your story matters, and we care about you. And nobody in my life, no adult in my life at that point was telling me those things. And I just wanted to say anything that would bring me more of that because I was beating myself so much every day about letting that happen to me, you know, which is obviously not true, but it's how it felt.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

And I was just desperate, really, for any semblance of comfort. I felt like a little kid all the time, just, like, begging to be believed and heard.

[Jane Marie]

Mm. Mm. And so you found that online through Twitter?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yes.

[Jane Marie]

Did you know when these people were commenting on your posts online, like, who they were? Or did you just feel like you were reaching some. Like, some new friends?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

I didn't have a grasp on the fact these people were religious and political extremists. I didn't really understand they were, like, Internet strangers. And especially because at that point, like I said, I grew up with the Internet, so the idea of talking to people on the Internet Who I didn't know wasn't really scary to me was just a way that people talk to each other sometimes. So I didn't really understand what I was getting myself into.

[Jane Marie]

I hear you. Yeah. But they were offering you some comfort right at the beginning.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

They were. And I think that, like, in. In retrospect, that's, you know, obviously how cults pull people in. They tell them that they're broken, but, you know, we have something that can make you feel better, something that can fix you. And for me, at that point, that thing was Jesus. And Jesus, according to these people, was anti abortion. And so they were like, well, we need you to use your story and, and your grief. And particularly, I think a lot of these people projected onto me a lot of grief about my miscarriage that was not organically there. Like grief about my miscarriage itself. Absolutely. But grief about not being allowed to be a mother at that point. I think that they read a lot into that and kind of told me how to feel. And then I decided that that's how I felt about it, because that's what got a good reaction out of them.

[Jane Marie]

I gotcha. Mm.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Okay. So I was raped for four years of my life, violently, more times than I can count. And I did get pregnant when I was 15. My rapist threatened me with abortion multiple times. I did end up losing her, but I wanted her very badly. I named her Rachel, which is Rachel in English, and I think it's very important. So I was upset about bleeding out in my high school bathroom and feeling like I was about to die. I wasn't upset about not having a child by my rapist. Like, when I think back to how I actually felt in that moment, that was not at all how I felt, but I was like, well, this is what these people got from this story. So, yeah, like, okay, I'll talk about how upset that made me. And somehow over the span of a couple years, that kept happening over and over where I would talk about it and it would get a good reaction from those people. And then I woke up one day and I was an anti abortion influence.

[Jane Marie]

So for a few years there. In her middle teens, Charlotte was recruited to appear in YouTube videos and social media campaigns as a sort of anti abortion poster child despite never having had one. And you're like, 16 at this point? Yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yes.

[Jane Marie]

My God. Do you remember what your, like, any of your talking points from that time when you were making videos or just talking to people in that community? Like, what were. What was the story you were telling?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Basically, I told the story of my rape, of my abuse, and then of my miscarriage and you know, about how badly I felt after having my miscarriage and then attributing those feelings to me not having a child and grieving that loss. And I think that was a really, that was kind of the angle that a lot of people pushed me into. Like that, oh, well, you're already a mother and we recognize you as a mother. And it was a really big thing for people to like, wish me happy Mother's Day.

[Jane Marie]

Oh my God.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah, like so many people would do it. And that was kind of how they portrayed me. Like I'm this 16 year old girl who's never given birth and all of a sudden I'm the quintessential mother figure in this movement. It was the definition of absurd.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

And then sometimes in interviews I was told to comment on that or to give that specific narrative. And so I would, because I was a 16 year old girl and the people who were talking to me about these things, who were interviewing me about these things, were all very much adults. And so I was like, well, yeah, you know, the best thing you can after you get pregnant from rape is to give birth, because then you're not like continuing this cycle of violence. And that phrase is something that was handed to me. And I think that I did not believe that those two actions were at all equitable. I did not believe that rape and abortion were at all equitable. And I would pretty frequently argue with other anti abortion people about saying that. But I couldn't get around having interviews and talking about what happened to me without like certain things being expected of me, like certain narratives being expected of me.

[Jane Marie]

But you're still kind of like a mouthpiece for the movement.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah. At that point I stopped working with like the quote, unquote, establishment anti abortion movement. And I'd made like a false distinction between that and this group that I was then working with, which is called Progressive Anti Abortion Uprising. They claim to be this leftist anti abortion organization. They talk about being against the death penalty and being against euthanasia and wanting to establish systems so that people don't have to have to quote, unquote, choose abortion.

[Jane Marie]

So they're also making a weird false equivalency between euthanasia and the death penalty.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah, like they, they group all these things under life ethic issues. So it makes it really hard to attack their stance on any individual one because they've grouped them all together like war, euthanasia, the death penalty, abortion, because they're like all these things threaten human life. And clearly some of these things are not like the others. When you get an abortion as a reaction to rape, you are continuing the cycle of violence. So you were raped. That was a violent experience that happened to you. That wasn't your fault. You're hurt, you've been victimized. Why is it fair to further victimize someone else? Because you are hurt.

[Jane Marie]

So that's the Progressive Anti Abortion uprising.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yes.

[Jane Marie]

Organization, and they're still in existence?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yes, yes, they're still in existence. From what I understand, they're actually hurting pretty bad internally because people have heard what I've been talking about, what I've been saying about them, but publicly, they're very much still going. So in the last year at my high school, I left Progressive Anti Abortion uprising quietly. I didn't say anything about it publicly, but I had gone to Washington, D.C. to stay at their, like, activist department that like, all of their activists live at the ones that work for them as opposed to, like, their volunteers who don't get paid, which is what I was considered.

[Jane Marie]

These are like their paid lobbyists.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

They call them like paid activists. But people who do, like, protests and stuff, like Lauren Handy, Teresa Bokovinak, like, they all live in the same area, so they can all do like, protests pretty regularly.

[Jane Marie]

Okay. And they're getting bankrolled by donors.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yes. So all these people. Teresa Bovak has like the board for Progressive Anti Abortion uprising, and then they get directly paid by like really wealthy conservative anti abortion donors.

[Jane Marie]

Wow.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah. Which I didn't. Again, I didn't know that at the time. Like, that's who was bankrolling this, because I thought it was like grassroots funded, because that's what they told us.

[Jane Marie]

But it's like some creepy oligarchs.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Oh, yeah, yeah. It's all old, conservative white people.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. So, okay, so you didn't. You left quietly.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah. Because that spring I went to D.C. for their week of action, which was supposed to be a week where we did like nonstop protests in D.C. so I flew up there. It's like a 30 minute flight from where I live to D.C. and so I could do it relatively regularly with like, donor money. So I went up there and I stayed at their apartment. And they had this new girl come in who was like asking really inappropriate questions about my abuse and about my pregnancy. And then like, she announced her own pregnancy and we were all like, oh, that's really cool, you know, like, nice. And then she started hitting on this guy that worked with our organization who was like, 20 years older than her and, like, do what you're gonna do, mama. Like, okay. But she was married. Yeah, she was married, and she was, like, 18 and just told us she was barely pregnant with her husband's baby. And we were like, okay. And then she was, like, joking about it, and she called me a whore. And I was like, oh, oh, don't say that. I was so enraged. But I was trying really hard not to turn it into a bigger situation that it was. I've been called a lot of names in my life, so I just, like, quietly brought it to leadership. And you're not supposed to talk to other people in the group about your issues. You're supposed to go directly to Teresa, the leader, and talk to her about it. So there can't be any, you know, opinion forming about how the organization is being run. I was like, hey, I'm having this disagreement. And I also had issues with how things were being done, like, with protests and stuff. I had issues with how my Judaism was being used, like, how I was being propped up as kind of like the token Jew. I am ayala. I am 18 years old. I am from Charlotte, North Carolina, and I am anti abortion. One misconception that I deal with pretty frequently is that we are all Christian, white old men. And as a, you know, Jewish woman younger, I really want more voices like mine to be seen in the anti abortion movement because I think we have new perspectives. So I brought up all these issues, and they were like, oh, okay. And then they got back to me later and were like, hey, you're alienating this girl who just joined, and we are gonna kick you out if you don't basically have a struggle session with us and, like, get on a call and let us berate you. A struggle session?

[Jane Marie]

What's that, another cult thing?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

I mean, it's the term that me and the other people who have left this group kind of assigned to these meetings, but basically in reference to what Mao's government did in communist China, where you would have, like, a meeting with people, your superiors, when you've done something wrong, and they would, like, berate you for it publicly with, like, you know, your higher ups, so that you would, like, go back into submission.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

And I was like, fuck you. I didn't do anything wrong. So after that spring and all that had happened, I left. I was completely separated from that group. And again, like, I didn't do it publicly because I thought that it was dangerous for me to voice the opinions that I was starting to have publicly because of like the platform that I had and just how many people knew me. But at that point I was like, I can't work with any of these organizations anymore.

[Jane Marie]

Dangerous. Like someone was gonna be like, confront you about it or dangerous how?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

I had a lot of harassment, a lot of hate, and a lot of scary messages that I got. I was like 16 or 17 when I left formally, and I had a lot of people harassing me and threatening to dox me. And then finally someone did dox me and, like, threatened my family for being Jewish. Like, it was all centered around my Judaism. They're basically like. Their point was that I was subversive to Catholicism, I was always going to leave, and that I would keep moving further left because it was in my nature as a Jewish person to subvert the church. Yeah. So they were all like, saying the most horrific anti Semitic things against me. And I was like, look, if I come out as getting myself away from the entire anti abortion movement, these people are going to come back with that twice as hard. And I don't. I don't know how I'm gonna deal with it. And obviously, considering the events that would happen almost a year later, I was completely correct in that assumption.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. Well, tell us what happened.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

So basically, when I got together with my now boyfriend, it was almost exactly a year ago that I started working at this brewery with him in my hometown. I was going to community college online and applying to universities, getting ready to transfer my credits so I could be the first person in my family to go to university. I was very excited. So I was basically just getting all my ducks in a row for like a year. And as I was working at this brewery, I was really struggling with feeling like I had taken a massive step back in life. I'd had this whole life planned for myself, and then I just kind of threw it out the window and feeling like I've massively screwed up. So I started drinking a lot, and it became more and more of a problem until finally that spring when I was 20, I realized that I had a serious problem. I was drinking all the time and I was massively depressed and I was so anxious, I was having constant panic.

[Jane Marie]

Attacks, which is what drinking will do.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah, Drinking, turns out, is your body doesn't like it when you poison it. So I was basically just laying in my room when I wasn't at work, just drinking and listening to sad music and crying. And my boyfriend was like, this is not good. And he ended up leaving that brewery to go work at a rehab facility for teenage boys. And it was owned by a company that also ran a rehab facility for young women a couple hours away. And he was like, hey, I've heard about this place that my company owns. I really like the facility that I work at. I think you should go to this place. And I think it might be hard. He was honestly an angel. Like, in retrospect, I do not know how he was able to like dealing with his own issues at the same time, like, you know, go with me through this. So I went to rehab for a month and I was able to completely unpack my abuse when I was a teenager and especially all the things that had happened to me in the anti abortion movement. And my therapist was able to articulate to me for the first time, like, that I had been exploited and abused by those adults and that that's why I was so angry. It wasn't just because all these like interpersonal falling outs that I'd had with these people, but I was so angry because they'd abused me. And I could sense that. And I was like, holy shit. So I started describing myself in rehab as pro choice and talking to the girls around me. And I made many lifelong friends and I'm very grateful for rehab. And then I left and I felt a lot better after that.

[Unknown Host]

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[Jane Marie]

So do you move back home or with your boyfriend?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah, at that point it was the end of May when I was released from rehab. So I came back home and I went to stay at my boyfriend's house for a little bit. I had about two and a half months until I was supposed to move to the university that I'd been accepted to. And I was really, really excited. Cause I was worried that rehab was gonna complicate me going to university. But everything was working out right on time.

[Jane Marie]

Great.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

So I went to stay with my boyfriend, you know, just have a little summer vacation. And we had sex. And at the time I didn't realize that the birth control I was taking and any birth control pill can be rendered ineffective by antibiotics. I was taking antibiotics in rehab. I got like A UTI or something, I think. And nobody told me that it would make my birth control ineffective because, A, I was taking it for endometriosis. It wasn't just supposed to be a contraceptive, but B, I was in rehab, so I wasn't having sex with anyone. I don't think they thought that was, like, an important thing to note to me, I guess.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, yeah, it's an all women's rehab. Yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

So if they did think about that, they were like, oh, well, she's here in this all women's rehab. So I left, like, right after that. And the antibiotics probably hadn't even made it out of my system. And I had sex immediately after. And then I got pregnant. And I remember I was sitting with my boyfriend one night, like a week after I'd left rehab, like the last week of May. And he was sitting on the floor and he was holding me in his lap. And I was looking at the wall, and I started crying. And he asked me what was wrong. And I told him I couldn't say it because I was too scared. And he couldn't look at me either, because I think he was just as scared as I was. And he was like, you think you're pregnant? And I was like, yeah. So he was like, well, don't worry about it. We're just gonna figure it out. We're gonna find out whether or not you are, and then we'll take it from there.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

He was really, really calm for someone that I'm sure was absolutely terrified.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

So I scheduled a gynecologist appointment, and I got a blood test, and I was very much in early pregnancy. It felt like absolute hell. I was sick very badly all the time. My legs.

[Jane Marie]

But also, you're reliving a trauma, so.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

So we were really struggling to figure out what to do. And I ended up calling after my second gynecologist visit when I, you know, cried to her. And I was like, I love my boyfriend. I want to be a mom so bad, but I don't think I can be pregnant right now. And I'm considering the other option. And she was like, okay, well, this is the closest facility. And I called them, and my boyfriend overheard the phone conversation. I was initially like, I'm just gonna deal with this on my own. Cause this is gonna be so hard. And I don't wanna subject him to it. But he overheard it and was like, why won't you just tell me what's going through your head and what you're thinking of? And I Just need you to do this together with me.

[Jane Marie]

Aw. I can relate to this.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

So hard.

[Jane Marie]

Just like not allowing people to take care of me because I wasn't conditioned as a kid to expect that.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah. Like, so it's weird. Nobody had ever taken care of me.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, it feels weird when they're doing it. You're like, no, no, I'll do this myself. Like, when I eventually got pregnant on purpose to have my daughter, I did most of it myself. Like, I did the pregnancy test alone, you know, like all of that stuff. Because I was like, I don't really want someone that close.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Exactly.

[Jane Marie]

But he swooped in and said, no, I'm going to take care of you.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah. He was like, I'm gonna take care of you. And also I need you to be honest with me through this whole thing. You don't have to have an abortion. And I really want you to understand that I'm not ever going to pressure you into having an abortion. Like, if you want to have a baby with me right now, I'll find a way to make it happen. And I was so scared, but I trusted him so much and I knew that he trusted me. So I made this appointment to have a consultation and I was like, look, I'm gonna go in there, I have to have an ultrasound and then I have to wait three days. So I have like built in time to talk this over with you.

[Jane Marie]

Because that's the law at that point, right? They changed the law that year, correct?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah. So in North Carolina, we have a 12 week abortion ban. And also you have to have an ultrasound and you have to be given the opportunity to see and hear the ultrasound. And they have to ask you a bunch of questions about, like, if you want to know if it's twins and stuff. Which I found out about that the hard way. It was really weird.

[Jane Marie]

Wait, that it was twins or that you had to have that done?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

They have to ask, you know, did.

[Jane Marie]

It remind you at all of, like the anti abortion people? Did you hear the talking points coming through the checklist they have to go through?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Absolutely. And it. I already had kind of intellectually worked through how absurd those things were. Like in my almost a year of time that I had between myself and that movement. But it gave me an experience of just how bizarre their talking points are in action, because I had already completely made up my mind to have an abortion for reasons that were totally separate from whether or not there were two fetuses as opposed to one. So, like, like, you're just inconveniencing me and everyone else for no fucking reason.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, yeah, Well, I mean, it's lawmakers wanting to control you, not doctors doing their jobs. Right. They're being forced to do the work of those same people that are giving money to the anti abortion organizations.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Exactly, yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Okay, so you go through that whole process and you're hours away from home and you have to stay for three days. Correct.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

My appointment was only 45 minutes from where I live. I was really, really lucky because I live just little ways outside of Charlotte. I was very worried that I would end up going over the 12 week limit and having to go to Virginia. And that would have been a reality for me then at that point.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

As I was waiting for my appointment, I started thinking about having a plan in case I end up not wanting to have an abortion. Cause at this point, my boyfriend and I were still trying to talk through a lot of things.

[Jane Marie]

Plus, they're getting in your head.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah. Years of programming is going to, you know, try and scrape away any sort of, you know, autonomous decision that you want to make like that. So I had this voice in the back of my head that was like, oh, are you sure? Because what if it's really as bad as they say it was? And what if, you know, you try to have an abortion and you die or you become infertile or all these other things that, you know, are pretty bullshit. But yeah, it just been like hammered into me at that point. So I was like, okay, like I should have a plan in case, for whatever reason I end up not wanting to do this. And so I reached out to Kristin Turner, who worked with me at Progressive Anti Abortion Uprising. I hadn't talked to her in over a year, but she was the person I was closest with. She was also the person who's probably closest to my age. She's just like two or three years older than me. And I was like, this is the only person that I can think who would keep this on the DL, but who can also get me into contact with anti abortion resources that might not even be available to the average person. Because, I mean, I was very aware of the fact that these people did not want me to have an abortion. Not just because of their ideology, but also because it would look really fucking bad for them if I had an abortion. And that came out somehow. So I reached out to her and I was like, hey, I have an abortion appointment scheduled. I'm only telling you that because I know that a lot of these organizations won't help you unless you have an abortion. Appointment, which not a lot of people know.

[Jane Marie]

Okay.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

But you can't just be a pregnant person and contact a lot of these organizations and get help. Like, you actually have to have scheduled an abortion appointment so they can be saving a baby, quote unquote, from an abortion. It's really absurd and gross.

[Jane Marie]

And then what's the help?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

I wasn't actually entirely sure. I'd heard a lot of different things from a lot of different people. And Kristin reached out and she was like, yeah, absolutely. I'll connect you with Let Them Live, which is, I'm almost certain, the largest anti abortion charity organization. And I use that term very loosely, but it's the only thing I can think to describe them. They claim to do things like pay people's rent, buy them childcare services, help them facilitate adoptions. Like more tangible things than, I think, a lot of standalone crisis pregnancy centers. Because Let Live is better funded.

[Jane Marie]

Sure. I mean, it's like Catholic Charities, right?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Exactly.

[Jane Marie]

Okay, so they get. She gets you in touch with these people or just she gets in touch with them herself.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

They went straight to the leader of this organization and were like, hey, this is Charlotte Ayala Eisenberg. Like, you need to make sure she doesn't have a fucking abortion.

[Jane Marie]

Sure. But also, she could also be reborn as our poster girl again.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Exactly. That part wasn't even a covert thing. That was explicitly said to me as a reason I shouldn't have an abortion is because they could make me a poster child if I didn't have one. And she was like, hey, we want you to go to this crisis pregnancy center near you so that you can have an ultrasound. Because we can only.

[Jane Marie]

Wait, wait, wait. That's another thing I don't think everybody knows about.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Crisis pregnancy centers are basically centers that oftentimes will pose as possibly abortion providers. They use very misleading language on their websites and on their signage to imply that they might provide reproductive care. But in actuality, they are usually not medical facilities. They usually do not have actual practitioners where they claim to give things like ultrasounds. They'll have like a nurse practitioner come.

[Jane Marie]

In sometimes, but I've heard that they dress up, right? Like a lot of times it's just a. A layperson who dresses in a lab coat.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Exactly. They'll have people who are essentially. Yeah, they're like, you know, lifelong church workers. They're like secretaries, but they'll wear scrubs and they'll perform ultrasounds and pretend to be nurses. And as long as they never tell people that they are a nurse, like, no one ever Asks. Everyone just assumes.

[Jane Marie]

This is so creepy, isn't it?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

It's so nasty.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, my God. And none of these people are doctors.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Absolutely. And that's actually, like, what I brought up to her. I was like, so I'm having an ultrasound at Planned Parenthood during my appointment and nothing else is happening. They're just giving me an ultrasound and talking to me about my options. So can I just send you the ultrasound that I get at Planned Parenthood? And she was like, no. And I was like, well, I'm already paying to like 200 something dollars, like the last of my savings account to have this abortion. Can you just use this one? And she was like, oh, well, this one's completely free. And then I was like, is this place even a medical facility? So I looked up and they're not. They're not a medical facility. Like I asked. I called them.

[Jane Marie]

Wait, wait, wait. That's another thing I don't think everybody knows about.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

The crisis pregnancy centers are basically centers that oftentimes will pose as possibly abortion providers. They use very misleading language on their websites and on their signage to imply that they might provide reproductive care. But in actuality, they are. Are usually not medical facilities. They usually do not have actual practitioners where they claim to give things like ultrasounds. They'll have like a nurse practitioner come in sometimes.

[Jane Marie]

But I've heard that they dress up, right? Like, a lot of times it's just a layperson who dresses in a lab coat.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Exactly. They'll have people who are essentially. Yeah, they're like, you know, lifelong church workers. They're like secretaries. But they'll wear scrubs and they'll perform ultrasounds and pretend to be nurses. And as long as they never tell people that they are a nurse, like, no one ever asks. Everyone just assumes. So they will give you like an ultrasound and then they'll lie to you about abortion. They'll tell you that it'll make you infertile. That's something that I was told over and over again. And then they'll like, say, you know, instead of having an abortion, we can give you baby diapers and formula for a year. And you're like, oh, well, thanks. That totally fixes. Yeah, like, now I'm not worried about now. I wasn't raped. Now I wasn't raped. Yeah, like, everything's good.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, my God.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

And I was like, I'm not having some street preacher look at my insides and lie to me about what's on the screen because they don't even know they're not an Ultrasound technician and be like, oh, you're 50 weeks pregnant with three babies. Like, man, fuck you. So. And they start, like, you know, beating on the table, and they're like, that's the heartbeat. That's the heartbeat. It was like, I'm not putting myself through that. So I told her like, hey, I don't wanna go to this. She was like, well, we already scheduled an appointment for you on Wednesday. Can you go to it? And I was like, I don't. We'll see. And then Wednesday morning, Kristin Turner texts me and tries to bribe me with a doordash of breakfast so that I would go. At this point, I was really struggling to afford a lot of stuff because I, Like, I said I didn't have a job. I was using the last of my money to go towards this.

[Jane Marie]

And she's like, do you want a bagel?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah. She was like, I can literally send you McDonald's. And at that point, like, genuinely, for someone who's in the kind of financial situation that I was in, I was like, that's really tempting. And she was like, I'll get you an Uber. You just gotta get in the Uber and you can have your breakfast on the way and they'll talk to you. And this is the only time that I was ever offered a meal is when they were trying to use it to get me to go to this crisis pregnancy center appointment they made for me.

[Jane Marie]

So did you go?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

I did not go at that point. I was so enraged that they were trying to obviously bait me with food that I needed to live. So I was like, fuck you. I'm gonna go find some instant oatmeal on the back of my cabinet. Like, I'm not gonna be manipulated.

[Jane Marie]

What were you hoping Kristin was gonna say? Like, what was the dream scenario and how reasonable was it?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

You know, I was really hoping she'd be like. Because she had her own issues that she'd vocalized with me about progressive anti abortion uprising. And unbeknownst to me, actually, at this point, she had more or less separated herself from progressive anti abortion uprising because of the fucked up way that they operate and, like, had moved out of their house into, like, a Catholic worker's house. So I was like, maybe she'll just be like, you know, here's this charity that can connect you with resources. Here's some stuff in your area. Like, I already reached out to them for you, and then kind of more or less leaving me alone. I didn't expect her to completely be like, okay, bye. Because that was very Unrealistic. But I expected her to just give me actual resources and to also be understanding about it. Because like I said, we're about the same age and pretty, same like culture, like minded person.

[Jane Marie]

Mostly like minded. And that you had this one difference, but that you could count on her.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah, yeah. In no way did I think that she would even consider doing what she actually ended up doing.

[Jane Marie]

So what happened?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

So as I stopped being responsive after the whole thing with the Crisis Pregnancy center, because that scared me, I had Theresa Bokovinak, who again, is like, she runs progressive anti abortion uprising. She's like the founder and director of it. She's also a very grown woman in her late 30s. She was calling me and she was like, hey, we're all going to be in D.C. for Dobbs Day, which is the day that Roe v. Wade was overturned. And the anti abortion movement kind of uses it like a Met gala. It's so disgusting.

[Jane Marie]

They get dressed up, they have like parties.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah, they have parties. They have like a ball.

[Jane Marie]

Okay.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

So she was like, we're all going to be in D.C. and you can just fly up here and you don't even have to tell your boyfriend or your family where you're going. And we'll pay for your plane ticket and we'll pay for your meals and you can just come in here for a few weeks and, you know, you'll stay at our house and we'll go to the lake. And I was like, this is starting to sound like those. Like you'd used to hear about those places where families would send pregnant girls A couple decades ago, like in Ireland and even in the United States.

[Jane Marie]

We had one in my hometown.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Pregnant women were just. Yeah. Where they're just kind of kept like cattle while they're pregnant to stop them from doing anything else.

[Jane Marie]

Right.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

So I was like, this is actually terrifying, especially on how they were pushing really hard to get me away from my family and the place that I'm from and telling me not to tell anyone where I was going. So I was like. And I stopped responding to them. I would still answer the text messages, but I would just be like, okay, yeah, okay, Kristen and I actually ghosted several times. You can see in our text history there's stuff that I just didn't answer. She asked to talk to my boyfriend on the phone and I was like, I'm not responding to you. My boyfriend was, like, increasingly uncomfortable, obviously, with the situation. I told him what these women were saying and trying to get me to leave. And he was like, I don't think that these people are going to help you. And at this point, I was like, yeah, like, I just hope that they'll sort of leave me alone if I ignore them enough.

[Jane Marie]

You don't have time to think about this? Like, you don't have time to process any of this? You're on a deadline.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah, like, not at all. I had, like, two or three weeks from the time that I made the appointment until going to it. And they were. I mean, in North Carolina we have all these, like, pregnant people coming from all these states around us, as well as the burden of, you know, there's only so many clinics in our state to handle the people from here. So there's no space for me to reschedule this appointment or anything. It's really like do or die. So I'm getting all this fucking information at once. And then there's very much the emphasis like, this has to happen now. You have to decide right now. And it was overwhelming. So I just sort of like, checked out.

[Jane Marie]

Do you think that's part of the plan? This has never occurred to me before.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Absolutely, absolutely. I think that all the regulations, I think that all the hoops you have to jump through, and I think that even when they do what. What they call sidewalk counseling, just standing outside, it's all meant to put you in this pressure cooker where you feel like you have to make a very, very, very serious choice right now. And it costs so much money. And it's so scary because they've, you know, hyped it up to be this terrifying thing, and they're hoping that you just stay home. And that's a much easier ask than going through with it.

[Jane Marie]

Right. So what did you decide to do?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

I was like, I made this appointment. I think that logically this is the best thing to do for not only me and my boyfriend and my family, but also for what would end up being like, this future person. Like, they would be really disadvantaged to be brought into a situation like this. So we went to my appointment and me and my boyfriend were both like, I don't have to make a choice right now, today. And on the morning of my appointment, I woke up at like 6:30 and I couldn't go back to sleep. My boyfriend was already awake. He had the same issue. And I was like, I'm so scared that they told someone and somebody's going to be at that clinic waiting for me. And he was like, let's not worry about that. They have people there, you know, to take care of you. They have security Guards, like, I'm not gonna let anything happen to you. And so I was like, okay, I'm just gonna go and we'll see what ends up happening. We leave like two hours before we need to because we're both just so fucking ramped up. And as we start this, like 45 minute drive, I'm getting texts from random anti abortion leaders that had met me maybe once ever, and who were so high profile, importantly, texting and calling me on, like, their main Instagram accounts and from their phone numbers to be like, hey, you don't have to go through this. And I was like, what the fuck? Because I didn't tell any of these people about my abortion.

[Jane Marie]

But Kristen knew which day it would be if you were gonna do it, or someone knew.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah, yeah, she was asking around, that sort of thing. And it never occurred to me that she would do anything to like, actually.

[Jane Marie]

So she was gathering intel.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah, she didn't remember what city I was from. She actually told me that she wanted to send me a care package and asked for my address and I gave her my address. And that's how she figured out what abortion clinic I was going to. Cause there's only one Planned Parenthood anywhere around my city. Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

So she was like, we have to know, like, what day it is for this, that and the other.

[Jane Marie]

So it got out there by that avenue. It sounds like. Yeah, you're getting all these calls in the car, which is creepy.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah, I got like a text from Jessica Newell, who's a national anti abortion activist. And she was like, you don't have to go through with this, queen. Like, you're so strong. And I was like, oh, my fucking God. Did Kristen Turner seriously tell you? And she was like, she just wanted me to know because I'm in the area and maybe I can help. And like, there's no need to be embarrassed. And I was like, I'm not fucking embarrassed. Like, she's just making my life way harder than it needs to be right now.

[Jane Marie]

And this is none of your business.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yup. And this is like, none of your fucking business. Like, girl, oh my God. I'm not embarrassed. You're just literally, your nose is in my ass right now and you need to leave. Randall Terry also was calling me. And for those unfamiliar, Randall Terry is this ancient, decrepit old man who he basically founded the modern anti abortion movement, which a lot of anti abortion organizations don't like to acknowledge because he's such a horrible person. And it's like universally Understood. He founded, like, the Rescue movement, which is where people invade clinics. Like, they go in in groups and harass the patients about their abortions and then also, like, physically handcuffing themselves to doors and assaulting nurses. Like, it got very physically violent. And it was such a massive national issue that the Clinton administration passed the FACE act to make it a federal crime to perform a quote, unquote, rescue at an abortion provider.

[Jane Marie]

But those are the people that abortion providers are scared of, you know, with good reason. Yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yes, because they have killed abortion providers.

[Jane Marie]

Right, Exactly.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

And Randall Terry is notorious for not only being like a Christian, far right extremist, but also for having basically endorsed the murder of an abortion provider today.

[Unknown Host]

Outside the church where Dr. George Tiller was murdered. A doctor specializing in women's health who.

[Jane Marie]

Also provided abortions, who for 36 years.

[Unknown Host]

Weathered massive protests, bombs at his clinic and gunshot wounds.

[Jane Marie]

But he defiantly held his ground.

[Unknown Host]

What I am doing is legal. What I am doing is moral. What I am doing is ethical. And you are not going to run me out of town. Anti abortion group Operation Rescue is condemning the killing, but its founder says Tiller reaped what he sowed. George Tiller was a mass murderer. He killed tens of thousands of innocent human beings at his own hands. And horrifically, he reaped what he sowed. They want us to let them continue their grisly trade, and we're not going to.

[Jane Marie]

Roe versus Wade will be on the.

[Unknown Host]

Ash heap of history, and men like George Tiller will be remembered as one of the villains of history.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yes. He's just a bad person.

[Jane Marie]

He's exactly the guy you want to get a call from on the way to your abortion.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Oh, yeah. Like, I could think of no one better. So I get a call from him and I'm like, I'll answer the phone. So I pick it up, and as soon as I do, Randall's like, don't go through with it, sweetie. I'll adopt your baby, sweetheart. Honey, it's gonna be okay. And I was like, randall, I'm gonna have an abortion. Like, you guys need to fucking stop. And he was like, well, do you wanna be a murderer? Cause it sounds like you wanna be a murderer. And I was like, fuck you. And I hung up.

[Jane Marie]

Good.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Cause so it was all these people blowing my phone up. I just sort of turned my phone off, and me and my boyfriend on the drive were holding hands and listening to magnetic fields and talking about how, you know, we're going to get through this together. And he was like, I'm I'm going to keep you safe. I'm going to love you through this. Like, it's going to be okay. And I will never forget how gentle he was able to be with me, even while he was very physically obviously enraged that I was being treated like that. So we got to the clinic, and as we were pulling in, I felt really safe because the Planned Parenthood near me is this huge building. It's got these huge fences with blackout curtains over them and there's cameras everywhere. I was like, oh, I feel really, really safe right now. Like, these people aren't gonna let anything happen to me. And as soon as that thought processes, I looked to my side and I saw Kristin fucking Turner standing in the driveway, looking back at our car that had just pulled in. And I almost threw up. Like, I screamed and my boyfriend freaked out and was like, what, Did I almost hit someone? Like, what's going on? And I was like, I think I just saw Kristen Turner. And I might be hallucinating because I'm just scared out of my mind, but I'm almost certain. And so we were talking through, like, okay, what do we do right now? He was like, we can just go home. And I was like, no, if we go home right now, we might not be able to reschedule until after 12 weeks, you know, because we've already waited two or three weeks.

[Jane Marie]

Then you're talking about going to a different state.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah. We knew it was now or never because I had just enough money to pay for exactly what I needed at this clinic. And importantly, I didn't have enough money for an in clinic procedure, let alone to pay for gas to travel to Virginia and all that stuff.

[Jane Marie]

Right. So you had to do a medical. A medication abortion.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah, that's what I was looking at.

[Jane Marie]

Okay.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

And because I knew also, the price with that can fluctuate a lot more than with an in clinic procedure, which is going to be over like 500 bucks.

[Jane Marie]

Right, right.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

And also, of course, my insurance doesn't fucking cover an abortion.

[Jane Marie]

Right, Right. Yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

So I go in and I get signed in and I fork over like $230 for this ultrasound and stuff, which is physically painful.

[Jane Marie]

Can we clarify? I don't think people understand how an ultrasound can be painful, but they a lot of times do an internal ultrasound.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

And if you have endometriosis and you're pregnant, that is no bueno.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

That shit hurts.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah. And we sit down, me and my boyfriend are sitting there talking about what to do, and then Kristen Turner starts texting Me. And she's like, hey, am I at the right clinic? Lol. Like, I think I saw you, but I'm not sure. And I was like, what the fuck is wrong?

[Jane Marie]

You're like, I didn't invite you here.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah. Yeah. So actually, I can read these text messages in real time. So she texted me, and I was just so in shock, and I didn't even know what to say to her. So she was like, did you see me? And I was like, you looked right at us. And she was like, just come give me a hug, man. I miss you. I honestly couldn't see the fence blocks, faces. It's almost like that's what it's designed to do. And I said, I'm just going to get my ultrasound done. Like, I'm not even here for an abortion procedure today. And importantly, like, nobody at that facility was there to have an abortion that day because they don't have an abortion provider at that facility on the day that I went and they told me that, so. And I could also overhear at the counter what people were there for. And it was all, like, birth control implant insertions and pills and, you know, like, nobody was there for anything even remotely close to an abortion procedure. So what happened afterwards was just so incredibly melodramatic.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

I was like, I'm gonna get my ultrasound done. I'll be out in a bit. And then she said, can I come with you? I said, I don't think that's a good idea. And she said, teresa wanted me to tell you she's sorry about Randall. I didn't tell him, and I didn't know he called you at all. I'm sure. Then she said, charlotte, I'm going to come in there. If you don't come out. I can't stand by and let you get hurt. We have a sonographer waiting for you at the pregnancy center. If you want to get an ultrasound and hear your options, just come say hi. We spent all day yesterday driving here, and my heart is breaking for you. I just want to see you. I'm not doing this to be a dick. I'm doing this because you're family, and I don't care what it takes. I need to make sure you're safe.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, my God. Yikes. Very stalker behavior. Yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah, exactly. And thinking like, this person has not talked to me in over a year, and I just responded, I'm definitely safe. And I'm getting an ultrasound. I will be out in a bit. And then I turn to my boyfriend and I'm like, Man, what if she comes in here? I'm freaking out and, you know, he's holding my hand and he's like, she can't get in here. They have a buzzer system. They have like this, this huge prison door that they have like 20 locks on. Like, she can't just walk in. And then I turn and she's walking in. She told me later that she had gone up to the counter and said that she was there to support a friend and told them my name. And I guess that they were like, oh, she can't be a protester because she knows the first and last name of the person she's looking for.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, my God.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

And like. And granted, that's really dumb, but the people that they're used to being protesters there, I know are like love life people. They're people who are just standing outside with pamphlets and trying in vain to hand them to people in the cars going in. Like, they don't know anybody's first or last name. So I guess they were like, you know, okay, if she knows this information.

[Jane Marie]

She must be a friend.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah, yeah. Plus also, she was intentionally dressed, like, really alternatively. So they were like, oh, she doesn't look like an anti abortion protester.

[Jane Marie]

Oh. Cause she's progressive.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I can totally see why they let her in. I am a little upset that they did because at the end of the day, that's not best practice. But, like, I'm not mad at anyone.

[Jane Marie]

Well, also, it's a federal crime.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

And then part of me was like, maybe this is like God is punishing me for being an anti abortion activist and this is like my atonement. And I was very much thinking of that at that moment. And like, I don't think that that's true, but it did give me a lot of perspective that I will not soon forget. She sits across from us and she starts talking to us.

[Jane Marie]

At this point, Charlotte began filming.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

I just want to share with you all this pretty emotional picture for me that I took inside the clinic on the day of my consultation. This is me holding hands with my boyfriend. That's him. And this is Kristen Turner. This is while she was asking us super invasive questions, asking my boyfriend if he's ever been a father before, asking me about my previous pregnancies and asking us if we. We don't have any names.

[Jane Marie]

Ugh.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

We're just looking at each other like, what the fuck is going on? Then she's like talking directly to my boyfriend because she knows she can't get an answer out of me. And she's like, can you just step outside for a minute and talk to me? And he's like, I don't have anything that I need to discuss with you. And she looks really taken aback. And she's like, well, I think there's clearly a lot to discuss. And he leans in and he's like, not with you. And he was my hero in that moment. It's like, you know, I've been a very assertive, loud. Frankly, like, I've been called a bitchy woman my whole life. And it was so mortifying that in this moment, I was frozen, and I just could not do anything but stare. So I basically was like, kristin, please stop. We're not coming outside. We don't want to talk to you. And after what feels like an hour, they finally call me back. And I felt bad for leaving my boyfriend there, but I really didn't want to give Kristen the impression that she could follow us back, because if I had to tell her to stay there, I was afraid it would create, like, an altercation the whole time. I didn't just go up to the front desk to tell anyone that she was a protester because I was terrified that she'd be like, well, she is an anti abortion protester, too. And there would be a whole thing, and the police would show up and, like, I just need my fucking sound. Cause, like.

[Jane Marie]

Like, actually it's a team of you in there that are anti abortion.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah. Like, it didn't escape me that any of those clinic workers could have recognized me. And actually, when I went up to the desk, the man who was checking me in was like, oh, I've seen you somewhere before. Hang on, let me place you. And I promise you, I almost pissed myself. I was so scared. There were tears in my eyes. And he was like, you look just like Mila Kunis. And I was like.

[Jane Marie]

You'Re like.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

I was like, sheesh.

[Jane Marie]

Dodged a bullet.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

I get that a lot. So I was already, like, about to throw up. I was so scared. And I was like, I just don't want her to find some way.

[Jane Marie]

So he stayed out there to block her.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah. Like, I basically told him to stay there to block her. And I think he understood that. It's like, I left them together. And as soon as I got up, she, like, sat beside him and, oh, my God, my boyfriend, God bless him, had to endure her asking questions like, have you ever been a father before? Like, do you want to have a baby with Charlotte? You know, do you want to marry her? Like, all these things and the restraint that it must have taken him to keep answering these questions. So she didn't redirect her attention to me. I'm so grateful for him.

[Jane Marie]

Mm.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

And I went back, and they did the vaginal ultrasound, and then finally I came out, and I've had some time to, like, reflect with myself about, like, the choice that I'm trying to make. And I come back, and I'm like, oh, we're still dealing with this. I forgot for a moment I lived in a sane world where I was, like, at a doctor's appointment, Right. I didn't even go to the counter to check back out because I didn't want to try and schedule another appointment for my abortion and have Kristen Turner get up and start screaming or something.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Cause at this point, I felt like I was handling an explosive. So I grabbed my boyfriend, and I just, like, drag him out.

[Jane Marie]

Mm.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

And as we're walking out, we got outside the door and up to our car, and I turned around, and she was gone. So we sat in the car for a minute, just kind of took a breath. And then as we were pulling out, turned the car, and Kristen Turner appeared in front of it, like, standing in front of the car so he couldn't drive off. She, like, gestures at him to roll the window down, and he does. And he just, like, leans back while she talks past him to me. And she's like, I'm so sorry for showing up unexpectedly. Teehee. I didn't mean to upset you. I know you guys are pretty upset. And I was like, thank you. You're so sweet. Please.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, let us go. Let us go.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

So she stepped back, and then my boyfriend, like, peels off. And after all that, I was like, take me home, and I'm not leaving my room for three days. Yeah. Like, I was so scared. I was so worried that someone had overheard our conversation. We got back and spent a couple hours decompressing. And then Kristin texted me a couple hours later, hey, like, we're still in your city. We want to know if we can just talk to you for a little bit. Lydia really wants to see you. And I was like, who the fuck is Lydia? And it was then that I was informed she had brought along this teenage girl who was very much a baby. Like, she's still in high school. And I'm not really sure why she brought her along. I was like, man, these people aren't gonna fucking leave until I am straight up with them, like, if I talk to them. Because at this point, I'd not been straight up with her because I felt like I couldn't. But I was getting to a point where I was like, no, this needs to end right now. And they pull into my boyfriend's house and I get in the car and my boyfriend doesn't really want me going with them, but I'm like, look, I'll be right back. We're not going far. I just need to tell them, you know, what's what. And he's like, okay, I trust you. So I get into the car and they're like, okay, well, it's like a 45 minute drive to the hotel. And I'm like, woohoo. They ask if I want to pick up clothes from my parents house.

[Jane Marie]

What?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah. They're like, you want to get a change of clothes? And I was like, what do you mean? Like, well, you're coming to stay with us, right? And I was like, never said that. That's something that you are making up in your head.

[Jane Marie]

Mm.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

And she's like, oh, okay, well, we can just start driving and we'll find something along the way to stop at. And I'm like, there is a little main street in our tiny town. It's like two blocks from here. It's walking distance. We can stop there.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

To give myself some autonomy because I knew that if I really needed to walk back home to my boyfriend's house, that I could.

[Jane Marie]

You could get there. Yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

So they seem really upset by this, but they're like, okay. So they drive me out to this little downtown area, I get some coffee, and we're sitting there talking. It is the end of June in the southeast and it's like 90 degrees and I'm pregnant, so I already feel like shit. And over the course of a couple hours, I sit there and go through hours, hours, two hours.

[Jane Marie]

Oh my God.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah. I was like telling my life story to these people. They just kept asking questions.

[Jane Marie]

Did you feel like you were doing your own hostage negotiation?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Y authority to ask me any kind of invasive question she wanted? Like, it didn't even occur to her that it was none of her business, any of this stuff.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

So we kept going through my relationship and she's like, yeah, I talked to him and he seemed like a really nice guy, you know, I thought he was really great. I think you should marry him and just consider having his baby right now. And I was like, you know, it's funny you say that because you made him so incredibly angry when you were asking him all these invasive questions. And I don't think that you realize that, but he is very upset with you because none of this is any of your business, Kristen. And she changed her demeanor so abruptly after being told that. And she's like, okay, it's been a couple hours. I don't want you to have this abortion. And I'm like, well, I think I'm gonna have an abortion. And these are the reasons which I've already articulated to you. It's the finances. It's that I just got out of rehab. It's that I'm literally weeks away from going to university.

[Jane Marie]

It's that I don't have to explain any of this to you.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah. And so she switches up and her immediate response to that is, I think your boyfriend is abusing you.

[Jane Marie]

What?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

And exactly. And I was like, what are you talking about? And she's like, I think your boyfriend is forcing you to have an abortion and he's abusing you. And I don't think that you're in a safe situation. And I'm like, the boyfriend that you were just trying to convince me to marry and have children with five, 10 minutes ago, this is the boyfriend that's abusing me. How did you come to this conclusion?

[Jane Marie]

Mm.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

At this point I'm like, I need you to take me home right now. Because it's been hours. It is hot, I feel sick. I wanna go home. My boyfriend's texting me, asking if I'm okay. I need to be home now. She's like, well, I need to talk to Lydia. And they go into this restaurant to use the bathroom. And I can see them through the window talking and pointing at me. And I'm like, this is ridiculous. And she finally gets out of, out of this restaurant and gets out of her negotiations with this teenage girl and she's like, Lydia says she doesn't want to drive you home because you're in an abusive situation. So here's what you can do. What I can do, you can call your parents to pick you up.

[Jane Marie]

Uh huh.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

And at this point, to stop myself from getting into an altercation with this woman, I just started walking the other direction because I. I have never felt so unsafe in an altercation like this. And I'm like, I'm just, I need to get out of here. So I start walking and I can hear her screaming after me and I hear her get on the phone with someone. And it does not occur to me that the person she could be speaking to is a 911 operator.

[Jane Marie]

Oh my God.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

And as I'm walking down the street. An ambulance pulls up in front of this empty church and stops, and two EMTs get out. And I have a gut feeling that they are looking for me. And so I go up to them, and I'm like, hey, do you guys need directions or something? Why are you stopped here? She's like, we're looking for a girl that matches your description. Actually, your friend called and said that you're suicidal and that you're trying to hurt yourself. And I let out the most animal sound that I think I've ever let out. Something between a wail and, like, a scream of frustration. And I'm like, look, I'm gonna level with you. This is what's going on. I know it's gonna sound weird, but these girls are, like, really, really religious, and they don't want me to have an abortion. And being where I'm from, that makes total sense. That's the culture of the Southeast. This emt, luckily, is a really cool lady and a normal person, and she's like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. We're not gonna evaluate you. You are clearly of sound mind. You're articulating yourself very clearly. A police officer's about to pull up, and we'll have him drive you home, because we can't take you home in an EMT vehicle, but we'll have the police officer drive you home. So the police officer takes me home, and I come inside.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

And my boyfriend's like, did a police car just drop you off? And I, like, fell into his arms, and I collapsed, and I was just sobbing, and I explained what happened to him. So I'm like, look, man, I'm really hungry. I feel sick and horrible. I just. Can you go make some breakfast for dinner? So he goes downstairs, and he, like, starts making some biscuits and stuff. And, like, I throw on one of his T shirts and, like, my boxers, and I'm just, like, trying to relax. And it's about two hours that I'm at home, and I finally step out into the yard. I'm like, I'm gonna call Teresa Bokovinak to see if she organized this.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

So I get on the phone with Teresa, and she answers. And I'm like, hey, Kristen Turner just called the police on me and told them that I was suicidal because she doesn't want me to have an abortion. Did you or did you not tell her to do that? Because that is not legal. You're, at the very least, lying to the police and misusing resources, and I need to know if this Is an action of your organization or just something that Kristen Turner did? And Teresa says, we're all just really worried about you. So that's a yes, in my humble opinion. Yep. Yep. Like, she knew what was happening.

[Jane Marie]

Right? Right. She was apprised of it. Whether it was her idea or not, she knew it was going on.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Exactly. So she says that. And as she gets that out of her mouth, two cars pull into the driveway with headlights way too bright for me to make out what they are. And I'm standing there barefoot and my boxer shorts and a ratty T shirt with no bra. And I scream for my boyfriend. He comes running out of the house at a speed I've never seen a human being move. And he, like, gets in front of me, puts his body right in front of mine and is, like, yelling at this car, like, what are you doing in my driveway? And this police officer steps out.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, my God.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Fully vested. And I'm able to see now that there are bars on the windows of both these police cars that are sitting in front of me. And.

[Jane Marie]

I.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

This is really hard. This is really hard to say.

[Jane Marie]

I'm sorry.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

I was, like, clinging to my boyfriend as this police officer is saying. We have a warrant from a magistrate because someone filed an affidavit certifying that this girl is a danger to herself, and we have to take her to be evaluated at a psych ward. They want to put her in a psych ward for 72 hours and hold her there.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, my God.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

And I'm clinging to my boyfriend like a child, and I'm sobbing, and I'm like, you can't let them take me. Don't let them take me. Like, these people can't do this. And I was just sobbing and, like, wailing. I just want to go home. And I have never in my life felt more like a scared child than I did in that moment. It was still really hard for me to think about.

[Jane Marie]

I'm so sorry. It's hard to think about them wanting to put you through that after everything they already knew about you, you know?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Like, to just. Oh, let's just traumatize her a little bit more. A little bit more. A little bit more.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Exactly. So I turned away, and I'm, like, looking at the woods and looking at, like, this. This very safe place that I'd been able to, like, retreat to after rehab. Like, my beautiful boyfriend has this beautiful property. It's a farm property. It's got all these woods and a creek, and I'd love to run with Our dogs. And it always just been such a safe place to me. And I felt like I was just trying to cling to any of that safety. And as I was looking around like an animal caught in a trap, I hear the police officer go, don't turn away from me. Don't turn away from me because I'll cuff you.

[Jane Marie]

What?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah. I mean, he was like, if you walk away, like, we'll put you in handcuffs. And I saw him, like, reaching for. I think it was like a baton.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, my God.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah. And I was. I was so scared. And my boyfriend was like, I'm really sorry, baby, but you have to go with them because you know they have a warrant. Like, I can't stop them. And, like, you just don't fight with them or you're gonna make it worse. And I was thinking, people can't fucking do this. And they're like, just go to the ER and just explain it to the psychiatrist and they'll let you go if they think that you're not a danger to yourself. So I get into the police car.

[Jane Marie]

What if you actually were like, they really believed or thought or were there because you were supposedly suicidal?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

And they're gonna threaten to cuff and hang onto their baton for a mental health check.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

I mean, and mind you, I am 90 pounds soaking wet. I'm this tiny little 5 foot 2 woman cowering behind her boyfriend. And they're like, obviously, you know, physically intimidating me.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

So I get in the back of the police and I'm like, crying. I'm like, can my boyfriend just get me my fucking shoes? And they're like, yeah, okay. So he goes and brings me my sneakers, and they put me in this police car and they close the door. And I'm looking at my boyfriend through these barred windows. And at this moment, I was like, holy shit. Like, I immediately thought of how my grandmother must have felt when they took my mother from her and put her in an orphanage. Like, the state really can just come and take you. You don't have institutional power. If you're a threat also to that institutional power, like, the law really doesn't mean shit. And I still had my phone. I have no fucking idea why they still let me have my phone. And I texted my dad. I've never called my mom and dad mommy and daddy since I was like, nine. But I texted him. I was like, daddy, like, I can't really explain what's going on, but, like, I'm in the back of a police car right now, and I'm. My Daddy's little girl. Like, I am.

[Jane Marie]

I need tissues.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

No. Yeah. I'd always been a straight A student. I'd always been, you know, doing five extracurriculars and in a debate club. Like, I'd always been such an achiever. And, like, my dad is so proud of me. And the idea that I would ever be in a police car was just.

[Jane Marie]

So alien to him.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

My dad knows Kristen Turner, like, knows of her. And I was like, kristen Turner called the police and told them that I'm suicidal and I'm being taken to the hospital to be evaluated. Can you meet me there? And he was like, absolutely, baby. Like, I'm going to be there. Just hold on. Texting my boyfriend, and I was telling him, like, what hospital they're taking me to.

[Jane Marie]

And.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

I was trying to explain to the police officers. I was like, I know I sound like a crazy person, but I'm not suicidal. Like, these girls are just trying to stop me from having an abortion. They're like, we can't help you. Like, you just need to save this for the people at the hospital. Like, you know, basically, you know, whatever.

[Jane Marie]

Too late. We're just following protocol or whatever.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah, exactly. And.

[Jane Marie]

I'm so sorry, and I, I, I apologize for, you know, having you relive this.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

I mean, like, the only thing that I can think of when I think of how I felt in that moment is that there are so many women who have been through similar experiences, especially women of color who have had these experiences and tried to talk about it and no one gave a fuck and that have been permanently victimized and traumatized by the state in this way because they were pregnant. There are people who have had these experiences and just, they just have to live with it because the system doesn't care. And just that I've been able to, like, platform. This story, I think, just makes it worth telling.

[Jane Marie]

Okay.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Like, letting people know that. I didn't expect to cry so much.

[Jane Marie]

It's okay. I cry on the show all the time. At least a couple times a season.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

And real.

[Jane Marie]

Yep. So what did you say at the hospital?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

I got there before my dad and my boyfriend, and they, they, like, perp walked me through the ER again. I'm wearing these boxer shorts and old T shirt, and I have these two big old police officers walking me through. And like, every nurse in this hospital is lined up along the walls of the ER staring at me as they walk me to my room. And I just wanted to be compacted into a little ball and vanish.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

I had never been I'd never been looked at that way in my entire life, even when I was in rehab. And.

[Jane Marie]

And you don't even know why they're looking at you like that. It's probably cops are there, but, like, is it because you're suicidal? Is it because they know that you're pregnant? Is it like all of the different things that, that people could be judging you for?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah, like, I didn't even know what they'd been told.

[Jane Marie]

Right, right.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

So I get in there and I'm explaining to every nurse that comes in. I explained to the attending doctor and he's like, I'll forward this to the psychiatrist. Like, I'm really just here to make sure that you're not physically hurt. But, like, I'll tell her, like, I believe you. That shit is crazy. And finally the psychiatrist comes in, like hours later. My boyfriend's been there at that point, holding my hand.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Trying to get me to eat something. My dad's come in and talk to me. My dad at that point didn't even know I was pregnant. My mom did, but I mean, again, I'm daddy's little girl and like a star student. And I just. I didn't want him to see me that way. And my boyfriend had to tell his parents that I was pregnant too. So, like, now everybody knows I'm pregnant and thinking about having an abortion. And the psychiatrist comes in and she asked my boyfriend to leave. And she talks to me about everything and she's like, here's what they told me happened. Have you seen this affidavit that they filed? And I was like, no, no one's showing me anything. I don't know what's going on.

[Jane Marie]

So I'm going to read the affidavit that was issued by the court. It has a bunch of typos and mistakes, but I'll try to read it, you know, as it's meant to be read, I believe. Respondent has been talking to friends slash ex co workers from California and Georgia. They were in D.C. on a work trip. Respondent said she was struggling. Respondent went to a drug rehab at dot dot dot and was released at the end of May. Respondent said she took a bunch of pills trying to kill herself. Respondent lives with her boyfriend who is an employee at the rehab. She was referred there by him. There is a 19 year age difference between the two. The conversation between respondent and petitioner led petitioner and another friend to come to North Carolina to see about her because her behavior was abnormal. Respondent told petitioner today that she wanted to kill herself by taking her mom's opioids. Petitioner stated the respondent's personality is not aligned with her values. Respondent has been raised raped before and she shared with petitioner that she's in the worst mental place of her life. What the fuck is that supposed to mean, by the way? Like, she's been raped before, but this is worse.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

My mother has never been prescribed opioids in her life and I have never done opioids in my life. So they had like pieced together all this information about me and him and it ended up like a bad game of telephone because they put a lot of stuff on this affidavit that just wasn't true.

[Jane Marie]

Okay.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

They alleged that he was abusing me, that I was an addict, that I was a danger to myself. Importantly, because I was trying to have an abortion and they believed that my boyfriend was forcing me to because it went against my values. It's the exact verbiage. They used this random child who is putting me in a psychiatric ward for trying to have an abortion because she thinks it goes against my values. And the magistrate signed off on this and crazy, crazy. I'm looking at this piece of paper like, this is the piece of paper that very well could have turned my body into physical property of the state. If this psychiatrist was one of these good old boys that are a dime a dozen where I live, it would have been so easy for me to get taken to a different hospital, talk to an old male psychiatrist and boom, like, I would have been in the psych ward and I would have probably gone over that 12 week deadline and I might have had to remain pregnant. And remembering what happened to my grandmother, I'm going through this scenario. I'm like, they would not have let me keep that infant if I had been committed to the psych ward while pregnant.

[Jane Marie]

Right.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

CPS is going to take that baby from me, obviously. Especially when someone's alleging that I had done opioids.

[Jane Marie]

Sure. Yeah, exactly.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Like Jesus Christ. So all this shit that just is not true. And it's now on this legal document associated with my name. And this judge signs off on it.

[Jane Marie]

Right now you're a known person to the legal system in your hometown. Yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

And the psychiatrist releases me. She was like, you're of sound mind. You're articulating yourself perfectly clearly. You've told a very confusing story in a way that I understood very well and I think that's more than enough. And also, like, she talked to Kristen on the phone. And Lydia, and she was like, these girls are clearly anti abortion, zealous. Like I can tell from the way that they're talking. Yeah, she actually went and scanned in the affidavit and the like basically arrest warrant.

[Jane Marie]

But to put in your medical file.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

So that I would have access to it.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

So I have now printed out and scanned all my medical records and I posted online my affidavit and all my medical records and all that stuff that, you know, proved that happened. But after they released me, it was like one in the morning and I went home and I just like collapsed at my boyfriend's house. I was so tired.

[Jane Marie]

Such an awful day. Your head must have been spinning that you could have spent so many years as an ally to these folks.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

When I was a teenager, I was told like, oh, you know, we help women who want to remain pregnant by giving them diapers and paying their rent and helping them pay for cars and stuff. And I was like, that's great. It never occurred to me that these people were capable of kidnapping you.

[Jane Marie]

Essentially.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

And then have the police kidnap you and then have the hospital kidnap you. So did you, did you get the abortion? Do you mind me asking?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yes. I ended up using mifepristone and misoprostol. I initially did not tell anybody else, even my boyfriend, when I had my abortion because obviously at this point I was so scared of how criminalized me even considering an abortion had been.

[Jane Marie]

Right.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

So I went home to my parents house and had a self managed abortion in my childhood bathroom by myself.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, honey.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

And it was so, so, so scary because the whole time I had like ringing in my head, you know, Emily burning, telling me that having an abortion would make me infertile and I'd never be able to have the children that I wanted to have and that I would die from like sepsis or hemorrhaging.

[Jane Marie]

Well, in that state you could because nobody would care for you.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

But yeah, I did it myself. And it was so scary until it was over. And then I was like, oh, you.

[Jane Marie]

Know, that was medical care.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Like I had a pretty standard life.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

It was painful.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

But it's. You're not getting like an involuntary hysterectomy or something, which is what they make it sound like. Yeah, yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

And it's the loss, I think, particularly of that potential future of me being a mother. That was hard because I do really want to be a mother. But I also knew that is a whole person and I know what it feels like to be raised in poverty.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

And I'm like, well, I can just wait a year or two and everything will still be here.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, it's hard for me to get inside the heads of these people that just want to put you through more and more and more trauma. Not just the police, not just that you can't get divorced. Not just, you know, they want you to then be a really young mom who has to suffer through this thing. And I don't. I just. It's hard for me to imagine what good they think they're doing. Can you sue them? Are you suing them? You should sue them.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Here's the thing. I've thought a lot about this and I really wish that there could be some kind of justice in this situation, particularly against Kristen Turner and progressive anti abortion uprising. But in considering that a I've worried about, especially as abortion is becoming more and more criminalized and we're looking at right now legislation that's been introduced federally to have a total federal abortion ban with House Bill 722. And I had no faith that they would not try to criminally prosecute me for the abortion I had as they were doing discovery for like the case that I had brought.

[Jane Marie]

And the laws keep changing. You don't know one second to the next what's legal, what's illegal.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Exactly.

[Jane Marie]

Lots of different states are coming up with retroactive laws to go back and prosecute people and whatever.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

There's like a million little asterisks. I talked to the Repro Legal Health line. There are aspects of people having abortions they think are completely legal that it turns out they're liable for.

[Jane Marie]

Right. As quickly as they got that affidavit and you had a warrant out, that kind of stuff's happening all the time. But like on a grand scale where a doctor will be in the middle of, say, performing a procedure and the law changes while they're not looking. So I can see why you wouldn't want to involve the law.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

And also more than that, I don't know if you've heard this because I actually didn't hear it for a couple days, but apparently Donald Trump just released all of the anti abortion protesters who have been held in violation of the Face act, including Lauren Handy, who worked with progressive anti abortion uprising. They'd all been to federal prison because they were involved in a quote, unquote rescue where a nurse was injured. And I looked at that and I was like, man, Kristen Turner is never going to get in trouble and go to jail or be held liable in any way that Counts.

[Jane Marie]

Right.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

If I go through the hell of court and trying to deal with this, just like with my rapist, nothing's going to happen to her. Because even at the end of the day, if a sane judge in North Carolina does something about it, Donald Trump's just gonna snap his fingers and she's gonna be able to walk out.

[Jane Marie]

Right.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

So it doesn't matter what these people do to me. Like, it just feels like they just get to terrorize women as much as they want, basically.

[Jane Marie]

And it's only getting worse.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Exactly.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Meanwhile, I'm in a police car.

[Jane Marie]

Right. I did not hear that about the face act. People getting let out of jail or federal prison, rather.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

That ended any little voice that I had in the back of my mind that was like, what if these people were right? What if, you know, me having an abortion's gonna traumatize me? Like all this stuff, like, as soon as they put me through those things, I was like, nope. Because these people cannot be on the right side. There's no way that the right side would make me feel this way, would do this to me.

[Jane Marie]

You are not obliged to do anything, by the way. I want you to. I want to make sure I'm clear about that. Like, you can take it easy and never talk about this again. You're not. You don't owe anybody anything. But I'm just wondering if you how you're thinking about it now.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

I had a while to think about it between like the news of my abortion breaking in far right spaces and like the harassment that I endured after that and like having to leave school and everything. Like my life kind of went on pause for a couple weeks.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

And I had time to think about, like, what do I do now, if anything. And the pros and cons of not doing something and doing something. Because I was already facing such an insane amount of harassment like I'd never experienced before in my life. And I was like, this is only going to get worse. If you talk about what happened. You name Kristen Turner and you name Theresa Bokovinak and you go after these people because they react very poorly to you attacking their own.

[Jane Marie]

Sure.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

But at the same time I was like, I would say, especially in anti abortion spaces, I don't think people who are donating every once in a while to let them live know that they are funding things like this and progressive anti abortion uprising, like they're funding harassment of pregnant people and pressuring and coercion. And I think that if more people knew that this is actually what the anti abortion movement is about, and it's not just about, you know, helping women who want to be pregnant.

[Jane Marie]

Well, that's why I got in touch with you because I was like, I think that a lot of anti abortion people like to claim that pro choice folks are like fear mongering, oh, they're coming for your body and da, da, da, da, da. And then I heard your story and I was like, hang on a minute. Literally someone got arrested for thinking about having an abortion. But, you know, I think people think this stuff isn't happening. You know, we see these headlines saying, oh, Trump wants to criminalize miscarriage, you know, or bring death penalty against women who have an abortion. And we're in that moment where it's like turning really scary, but nobody wants to believe it, you know, like, yeah, that's. Anyway, that's why I reached out to you. I wanted to talk to you about the real life scary consequences of what's happening all over the country right now.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

And what's interesting is that, like, there's a lot of anti abortion people who are starting to wake up to that but feel like they can't leave. And I think also in sharing my story, as well as alerting people to the severity of the situation and being like, no, people are being put in police cars for considering abortion. This is a real thing. Also being like, you can leave, because I did. I left so publicly and I endured some bullshit for it, but it was worth it because I don't think any sane person should be able to live with themselves seeing something like what happened to me, or even experiencing that and being like, okay, well, I'll still keep my head down, you know.

[Jane Marie]

Well, going from, I'm thinking, as you're saying that going from wanting to turn into a little ball in the hospital and disappear to now having become kind of the giant monster in their faces, you know, they're scared of me. They are scared of you. And I'm wondering, like, where, where do you think you got that sort of strength?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

I think that I am a much more resilient person than I gave myself credit for for a very long time. And I think that's a big part of it. I also think that having someone like my boyfriend through all of these things and who was able to be my strength sometimes when I couldn't, as well as my father, as well as my close friends, I leaned on so many incredible people during that time period when I was being harassed so badly that like, I had to leave school and I was being like, threatened. I'm very grateful to them. And I think that that's where a lot of my strength came from, but also just like the anger. And I think that a lot of people like me who have been through really traumatic things and who are really angry afterwards feel guilty for that anger. But I am really grateful for it.

[Jane Marie]

Because you tapped into it.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

I tapped into it and I used it to do all these things that without it, I just would not be able to do if I was just, you know, only able to sit with how scared and, you know, helpless it made me feel.

[Jane Marie]

Right. Right. So aside from the videos I've seen where you talk about this, are you doing any other sort of writing about it as a journalist?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yeah, I'm trying really hard. So I do have my job with Plug clt where I'm starting to write some pieces about abortion access. The latest one that I did was about a Catholic school in the Charlotte area that on a school sanctioned field trip, brought their students out to protest local abortion providers.

[Jane Marie]

What?

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Yep. It's getting crazy out there writing about that sort of thing. And then also I just applied and was accepted to interview at Collective Rising, which is like a reproductive rights organization. I'm looking to get a summer internship with them and go to their conference. So I really hope that works out.

[Jane Marie]

I really do appreciate you telling me your story, and I'm sure you're going to do really great things.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Thank you.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, I'm really excited to see what you do in your career and life.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Thank you.

[Jane Marie]

I'll see you soon on TikTok.

[Charlotte Eisenberg]

Thank you so much.

[Jane Marie]

One of the many things that struck me about Charlotte's story, one that I can't stop thinking about, is just how many adults in her life, in the name of supposedly caring about children, took advantage of her her when she herself was just a child, that so many adults let, or maybe even want their politics to affect their morals. In other words, if you want to be in a certain group that aims to change laws, you might start to believe people like Charlotte should suffer for that. You lose your empathy, your compassion in favor of some collective political goal. We'll unfortunately be hearing a lot more stories like this if we don't get our shit together. The Dream is a production of Little Everywhere. You can call us on our tip line at 323-248-1488. Let us know if you have a story for us to cover. Radiotopia from prx.