Alive and Well | 5

Summary

Hysterical: Episode 5 - "Alive and Well"

Released on August 12, 2024, by Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, "Hysterical" delves deep into the enigmatic world of mass psychogenic illness (MPI) and its modern manifestations. In the fifth episode, titled "Alive and Well," host Dan Taberski juxtaposes two seemingly disparate events—the mysterious outbreak among high school girls in LeRoy, New York, and the perplexing cases of Havana Syndrome affecting diplomats and CIA officers worldwide.

---

Recalling the LeRoy Outbreak

The episode opens with a continuation of the LeRoy, NY, case, where a mysterious illness swept through a group of high school girls. Initially dismissed as mass hysteria, the situation grew more complex with the revelation of a male victim, Jason.

• Dan Taberski [02:08]: "Our count right now, if you're keeping score at the peak of the outbreak in February 2012, is 17 girls who came down with the mysterious symptoms. Well, 16 girls and one 36-year-old woman. But it wasn't really 16 girls and one 36-year-old Woman. It was 16 girls, one 36-year-old woman, and one boy."

Jason's case highlights the skepticism faced by males in what was predominantly a female outbreak. Despite exhibiting symptoms, Jason was largely disbelieved by his peers and authorities, exemplifying societal biases in understanding MPI.

• Emily [05:47]: "Exactly. You were the only guy. So even the girls who had it, once you got it, they didn't believe you."

---

Introducing Havana Syndrome and Mark Polymeropoulos

Transitioning from LeRoy, the episode introduces Mark Polymeropoulos, a former CIA officer who became one of the victims of Havana Syndrome. Unlike the high school setting, Havana Syndrome affects seasoned professionals in high-stress environments.

• Dan Taberski [10:23]: "Mark is the former head of clandestine operations for Europe and Eurasia. But in 2017, Mark began experiencing strange symptoms that no one could seem to explain."

Mark recounts his experiences, starting with debilitating vertigo and migraines during a mission in Moscow.

• Emily [12:37]: "This was a really scary moment because there was almost a total loss of control."

Despite seeking medical attention, Mark and others received little to no support, deepening the mystery surrounding their condition.

---

Exploring Havana Syndrome

The episode delves into the broader phenomenon of Havana Syndrome, a series of unexplained medical symptoms reported by U.S. and Canadian embassy staff and other government personnel worldwide since 2016.

• Dan Taberski [17:59]: "I have clients from NSA, State Department, Commerce Department, USAID, FBI, DIA, and CIA."

Mark Polymeropoulos and attorney Mark Zaid advocate for the possibility of targeted attacks using advanced sonic or microwave technology, although no concrete evidence supports these claims.

• Emily [19:18]: "There was no doubt in my mind that something happened. Absolutely zero doubt. The symptoms are consistent."

Conversely, skeptics like Dr. Robert Bartholomew and Dr. Patricia Garavici argue that Havana Syndrome is a classic case of mass psychogenic illness, where psychological stress manifests as physical symptoms.

• Dr. Patricia Garavici [23:02]: "Human beings are meaning-oriented creatures. We are fallible and we are prone to seeing things that aren't there, to hearing things that aren't there, and believing in things that never were."

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Mass Psychogenic Illness vs. Targeted Attacks

The crux of the episode revolves around the debate between MPI and the theory of deliberate attacks. Proponents of MPI cite historical precedents like shell shock from World War I to illustrate how extreme stress can produce genuine physical symptoms without an organic cause.

• Mark Polymeropoulos [32:16]: "We are not in control."

On the other hand, advocates for the attack theory emphasize the consistency of symptoms across individuals in high-stress roles and challenging environments, suggesting external factors at play.

• Mark Zaid [19:53]: "If the domestic incidents are legit, if the international incidents are legit, but more so if the domestic incidents are legitimately foreign power attacking Americans, it's an act of war."

Dr. Garavici further elaborates on the power of belief in shaping physical reality, drawing parallels to historical hysteria.

• Dr. Patricia Garavici [26:37]: "Mass psychogenic illness is based on a belief. We all have beliefs, therefore we are all potential victims."

---

National Intelligence Council Report and the Havana Act

A pivotal moment in the episode is the discussion of the National Intelligence Council's report on Havana Syndrome, which largely dismisses the theory of neurological attacks by foreign adversaries, attributing most cases to other causes like environmental factors or psychological stress.

• Dan Taberski [39:48]: "The report concludes Havana Syndrome is almost certainly not caused by a neurological attack from a foreign adversary."

Despite this, the U.S. government enacted the Havana Act, compensating victims like Mark, creating a paradox where official acknowledgment coexists with skepticism.

• Emily [41:13]: "How do you mesh those two things together? You're saying it's nothing, yet the US government... are compensating us for an injury in the line of duty."

---

The Complexity of Hysteria and Modern MPI

Concluding the episode, Dan Taberski reflects on the intricate nature of MPI, emphasizing its social, cultural, and psychological dimensions. The conversation underscores that whether rooted in belief, stress, or potential external factors, hysteria remains a potent force influencing both individual and collective health.

• Dan Taberski [35:56]: "The symptoms of any mass psychogenic illness aren't just about the person exhibiting the symptoms. It's not just medical, it's social, it's cultural. It's about all of us."

Dr. Garavici advocates for understanding and dignifying those affected, urging society to listen and empathize rather than dismiss.

• Mark Polymeropoulos [36:08]: "I cannot but being grateful to hysterics and take hysteria seriously and give it back its dignity."

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Conclusion

"Alive and Well" masterfully intertwines personal narratives with scientific debate, presenting a nuanced exploration of mass psychogenic illness in contemporary contexts. By juxtaposing the LeRoy outbreak with Havana Syndrome, the episode challenges listeners to contemplate the fragile boundaries between mind and body, belief and reality, and the societal structures that influence our understanding of unexplained phenomena.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Dan Taberski [02:08]: "Our count right now... it was 16 girls, one 36-year-old woman, and one boy."

• Emily [05:47]: "Even the girls who had it, once you got it, they didn't believe you."

• Mark Zaid [19:53]: "If they know, they don't want to tell people..."

• Dr. Patricia Garavici [23:02]: "Human beings are meaning-oriented creatures..."

• Mark Polymeropoulos [32:16]: "We are not in control."

• Emily [41:13]: "How do you mesh those two things together?..."

---

For those intrigued by these deep dives into the human psyche and unexplained medical phenomena, "Hysterical" offers a compelling blend of storytelling and investigative journalism. Listen to Episode 5, "Alive and Well," on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts.

Transcript

[Dan Taberski]

Wondery subscribers can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad free. Join Wonder in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Hey everyone, it's Dan. I have an exciting announcement to share with everyone. Hysterical has been named the Apple Podcast's show of the Year. It's a recognition given to just one show that demonstrates quality and innovation in podcasting. The editors over at Apple Podcasts called our show an impeccably crafted and creatively structured investigation that sets a new standard for immersive audience audio experiences. And if you can't tell by the sound of my voice, I'm blushing. We really are so honored and so appreciative for the recognition and that you are here to listen to the show that we're really proud of. Thanks for listening. Now onto the show. Previously on Hysterical. So it just got.

[Jason]

It got crazy because.

[Dan Taberski]

So people start passing out. People start passing out right and left. Basically before you came, the EPA and the New York State Department of Health said that we did tests on the school grounds, everything, and there's nothing.

[Emily]

Right.

[Dan Taberski]

Why was that not good enough for you? You know, could we have made it worse? We tried not to, really.

[Jason]

We just built a school and we're building on six. Fragging. What? Like that makes no sense.

[Dan Taberski]

Okay, here's the situation. I lied about something. It's a minor lie, an omission really, but the more I think about it, the more important it seems to unlocking what exactly is going on in Leroy. So our count right now, if you're keeping score at the peak of the outbreak in February 2012, is 17 girls who came down with the mysterious symptoms. Well, 16 girls and one 36 year old woman. But it wasn't really 16 girls and one 36 year old Woman. It was 16 girls, one 36 year old woman and one boy. And the boy was the one that no one believed.

[Jason]

I remember that like that week is when it really blew up because so many girls. That was when we got up to like 12, 13 girls and then the one guy that said he had it, but everybody thought he was faking. So I don't know.

[Dan Taberski]

Here's Jessica, a senior.

[Jason]

Jason, I think was his name. He was an odd guy.

[Dan Taberski]

Was there a boy who had it?

[Jason]

Yes and no. He was one of the ones that I think was faking it.

[Dan Taberski]

And here's Emily, an eighth grader in the marching band.

[Jason]

I don't know for sure, I don't want to say one way or the other, but the whole collective, everybody agreed he was faking it. Why because that's just who he was. Everybody kept going, he's faking. He's faking. He's the only boy. He's faking.

[Dan Taberski]

And I was like, do we know Emily's mom, Kathy? Why were they all saying he was faking it?

[Jason]

I think maybe he. I mean, he was kind of a strange character to begin with. He would do anything to get attention, and this was the big thing, and he was sort of the new kid, and he started doing it just randomly in the middle of everything.

[Dan Taberski]

Do you remember what they were just like, what his tics were?

[Jason]

His were physical.

[Dan Taberski]

All in.

[Jason]

Like, all his head stuff. It was all head stuff, nothing else.

[Dan Taberski]

Where is he now?

[Jason]

Probably in jail.

[Mark Polymeropoulos]

Hey, it's Dan Tabirski. Can you hear me?

[Dan Taberski]

Sorry.

[Mark Polymeropoulos]

Yeah, you're sorry about that. Bear with me. I'm currently working.

[Dan Taberski]

Jason is not in jail.

[Mark Polymeropoulos]

You're working right now. What do you do? I drive dump truck. I deliver mulch and gravel and all that to people. Oh, nice.

[Dan Taberski]

Today, Jason lives far away from Leroy. We tracked him down in the Pacific Northwest. He was in the middle of a shift.

[Mark Polymeropoulos]

Oh, yeah. I'm multitasking to the Nth degree right now. I'm working. I'm talking to you. I'm eating. What are you eating? A wrap my wife made me.

[Dan Taberski]

Oh, that's nice.

[Mark Polymeropoulos]

I can't tell if it's chicken or turkey. I know it's bird, but that's about it.

[Dan Taberski]

In 2012, Jason was a junior. He played tuba in the marching band. Jason was one of the last at the high school to come down with the symptoms on the tail end of the medical mystery that had been stomping its way through Leroy.

[Mark Polymeropoulos]

When you started doing the neck thing, did you did that? It felt involuntary. It felt like. Yeah. Oh, very much so. Really? It was almost like a muscle spasm is the best way I can describe it. Oh, I should not have gone.

[Dan Taberski]

Jason had a rough go of it while he was at Leroy High. Beyond the outbreak, he was in the foster system at the time and had recently been sent to live with a new foster family.

[Mark Polymeropoulos]

When the tick started happening, you told what teachers, the school nurse, your foster parents. Like, how did you. I told my foster parents. My foster mother, in particular, legitimately said that I was faking. Oh, yeah. I mean, honestly, me and her never saw eye to eye from day one. My foster dad, I mean, he was a lot more on the. I mean, yeah, I'm skeptical, but I'm not gonna call you a liar. Was there anybody who believed you? Do you remember anybody? A teacher, a doctor? Anybody? Honestly, no. Like, even the other girls that I did talk to after I started being affected were even, yeah, you're full of shit. Or if you weren't faking, why are you the only guy? So even the girls who had it, once you got it, they didn't believe you? Exactly.

[Dan Taberski]

We've heard from several of the girls and parents about how their symptoms were real, that they were actually happening, and the frustration they felt at not being believed. So it's hard not to see the irony, how prone everyone seemed, perhaps without even realizing it, to then do the same to the next person down the line.

[Mark Polymeropoulos]

Why don't you think they believed you? Honestly, I was the only guy. And wow. I mean, from a logical standpoint, it makes sense. Thinking back on it now, me being the only guy that was affected, it does raise eyebrows, even to me. Really? You got almost 20 people affected and one to the guy. I can see how it seems is she. We'll say, wow. How are you doing on time there, Jason? Give me one second. I am, I guess, technically one load behind, I'm sure.

[Dan Taberski]

It's wild how quickly we try to draw boundaries around the unknown. How quickly we create the categories. Who's sick and who isn't, who's vulnerable, who gets embraced, who gets exiled, what membership in the club might mean. Even when it's a club full of people suffering from an illness they can't explain. I didn't talk too long with Jason. He doesn't remember much about the outbreak. His symptoms, for the most part, faded away or faded into the background as more pressing dramas and traumas pushed to the fore of his brain. There's enough to wrestle with in the present, so not much use in dwelling on the past.

[Mark Polymeropoulos]

I can do that real quick. Sorry about that. That's all right. It sounds like you're running out of.

[Dan Taberski]

Time, but I just.

[Mark Polymeropoulos]

I just wanted to finish what I was saying that. Like, I was saying that, like, if this was conversion disorder. It does happen mostly to women, but it does happen to guys all the time. Like. Like, if you. Conversion disorder? Sure. Like stress, psychological. The definition of conversion disorder is stress and trauma.

[Dan Taberski]

In the next couple episodes, we are going to stretch the boundaries a little of how we understand mass psychogenic illness, where it rears its head, and why. We'll start today by looking at another mysterious outbreak. This one isn't from 10 years ago, and it's not happening to teenage girls. In fact, the circumstances of the two cases couldn't be more different. Really? But when you put them next to each other, some patterns emerge and some surprises and some conclusions that challenge a lot of our assumptions about who exactly is vulnerable to this kind of thing. I'm Dan Tabursky from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios. This is hysterical. Episode 5 Alive and well.

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[Jason]

You were made to have strong opinions about sand.

[Dan Taberski]

We were made to help you and.

[Jason]

Your friends find a place on the beach with a pool and a marina.

[Emily]

And a waterfall and a soaking tub. Expedia Made to travel.

[Dan Taberski]

It's a sunny winter day in Northern Virginia, just outside D.C. my producer Henry and I have just arrived at the door of a modest home on a quiet street in an unassuming neighborhood. In other words, crawling with spies. I've never been in a CIA operative's house before.

[Emily]

In their basement.

[Dan Taberski]

In their basement? Yeah. Wall to wall carpeting. Well done. What is it about a finished basement that makes me want to wrestle? Anyway, now is not the time.

[Emily]

What's that?

[Dan Taberski]

I worked in D.C. for two years. Yeah, my first job out of college was at the White House.

[Emily]

Okay, there you go.

[Dan Taberski]

At the Clinton administration. But it was all right.

[Emily]

So you remember then because I joined the agency in 93.

[Dan Taberski]

The guy I'm memory laning it with is Mark Polymeropoulos. The Agency he joined in 93 was the CIA. Mark is the former head of clandestine operations for Europe and Eurasia.

[Emily]

It was an Adams Morgan, but we used to go to the Big Hunt all the time. Do you remember that bar?

[Dan Taberski]

I think so.

[Mark Polymeropoulos]

Yeah.

[Dan Taberski]

The Big Hunt. Oh, I remember the Big Hunt. Who doesn't love a bar with a name that sounds filthier the drunker you get? It's funny when you're 21.

[Emily]

Great chicken wings. There. It just closed. I just saw it.

[Dan Taberski]

Oh, really? Oh, right on. I want to make it clear that Mark wasn't just pushing pencils at the CIA. In his 26 years there, he was operational in some really dangerous places. But in 2017, Mark began experiencing strange symptoms that no one could seem to explain.

[Emily]

So, you know, I think it was. I can't remember the exact date. I think it was December 5, 2017. Early on in the trip, I woke up in the middle of the night in a Moscow hotel. It was a five star hotel two blocks from the embassy. Of course, we had surveillance the whole time there. The Russians were following us everywhere. But it was nothing unexpected, nothing unusual. It's just what they do to all Americans.

[Dan Taberski]

Are you assuming your room is bugged.

[Emily]

With video, audio, everything? It's just what they do. This is nothing but. So I woke up early on in the trip to a start. I don't recall hearing anything, but I woke up with an incredible case of vertigo. The room was spinning wildly. I had a splitting headache. I had tinnitus, which is, you know, ringing in my ears. I felt I was gonna be physically sick, you know, from lots of different, you know, orifices. And I knew something was really wrong. It was scary.

[Dan Taberski]

And for Mark, with the job, he had to say something is scary is saying a bunch, you know, so I've.

[Emily]

Been through a lot. This was this one, you know, a really scary moment because there was almost a total loss of control. It's not being hungover. It's literally. Yeah, the room is literally spinning. It's a very. And if extreme vertigo is freaky. So I was like, what the hell happened? My first thought is that, you know, perhaps it's food poisoning.

[Dan Taberski]

After a few hours, the worst of it passes. The next morning, he's still a little shaky, but goes back to work.

[Emily]

And it was that night or the night after, where we're sitting at the Pushkin Cafe, which is a famous restaurant in Moscow, and another vertigo attack happened just out of nowhere. And I thought I was going to pass out right there.

[Dan Taberski]

This, he thinks to himself, is not food poisoning. He leaves Moscow and makes it back to the States. But it only gets worse.

[Emily]

Things start going south. I lost my long distance vision, couldn't drive, and I started having just incredible cognitive difficulties with brain fog. And so I went to the agency doctors And I said, hey, you know, something's really not right. Something bad happened on the trip to Moscow.

[Dan Taberski]

Mark goes to the doctors at the CIA, but they don't offer much, he says, in the way of answers or even acknowledging that he's sick at all.

[Emily]

Because the Agency wouldn't help. And I went to probably 15, 20 different doctors on my own, whether it's an infectious disease specialist, obviously neurologists. I went to allergists, tons of pain docs. I've had all sorts of steroid shots. I've had what's called prp. It's this plasma kind of regenerative therapy where they actually take blood out, they spin it, and they inject it back in you. I mean, all sorts of crazy stuff. Nothing worked.

[Dan Taberski]

This goes on for months.

[Emily]

At this point, I had these splitting migraines in the back of my head that to this day, five years later, have never gone away. I've had a headache every day for five. A headache right now?

[Dan Taberski]

You have a headache right now?

[Emily]

Absolutely. It's never gone away for five years. I mean, it's amazing. I don't have a addictive personality in this sense. I should be an alcoholic or addicted to opioids, because it's just. You want something to ease the pain. Ease the pain. I was just in constant pain all the time.

[Dan Taberski]

That's physically. I mean, I'm assuming that you're feeling mentally terrible and emotionally terrible.

[Emily]

The whole thing. I was a mess.

[Dan Taberski]

Eventually, Mark becomes eligible to retire from Langley. He grabs the chance, feeling that he can't continue like this much longer. But just as he's calling it quits, another piece of the puzzle, the medical mystery about what was happening to his body and why pops into place.

[Emily]

As I was walking out the door, I remember a good friend of mine who is really sick now, and he's still inside the building. But he came to me and he said, hey, I just got back from a trip overseas. Something happened. And I think what happened to you happened to me. And that's what started this string of other cases.

[Dan Taberski]

You may have heard of Havana Syndrome at some point over the last several years, named that because the first known cases were in Havana, Cuba, in 2016. The first victims are diplomats and CIA officers working at the American Embassy there, which had just reopened. They complained of a strange sudden sound in their ears and pulsating pressure in their head, followed then by a variety of symptoms like nausea, fatigue, vertigo. Soon a CIA doctor arrives in Cuba to look into the matter. On his first night there, he says he Too was wakes up to a strange sound and he comes down with the same symptoms he had arrived to investigate. CBS News was the first to report. The State Department is investigating what it calls incidents causing physical symptoms. The story of the mystery illness breaks wide. In August of 2017, a report gets leaked that appears to show some of the victims had suffered concussion like brain injuries despite no outward signs of physical damage. Some begin calling it the immaculate concussion.

[Dr. Robert Bartholomew]

The ongoing investigation is pointing to high tech sonic technology.

[Dan Taberski]

Almost immediately, government explanations point away from a virus or a toxin and toward an attack. Experts hypothesize some sort of sonic or microwave weapon is responsible that targets individuals, somehow damaging the brain without leaving a mark on the body. Then the Associated Press receives a a leaked audio file. Sounds captured in Havana. This is the sound some diplomats say they heard just before the onset of symptoms. Now embassy officials are briefed on the sound to look out for and are advised to, quote, get off the X to get away from the sound as quickly as possible. In December of 2017, the first victim outside Havana falls ill. That happens in Moscow. To Mark Polymeropoulos. Tests will eventually show signs of a mild traumatic brain injury. Pretty soon, he's joined by others at embassies in Vienna, in Belgrade, in Guangzhou. In 2020, a national security Council staffer suffers an attack outside the White House. So now it's happening domestically. By the beginning of 2022, what started in Havana, Cuba, has spread to over a thousand cases of the mystery illness on every continent except Antarctica.

[Mark Zaid]

I have clients from nsa, State Department, Commerce Department, usaid, FBI, DIA, and CIA.

[Dan Taberski]

DIA is Defense Intelligence Agency. I had to look that one up. The man speaking is another Mark, Mark Zaid. He's the attorney representing Mark Polymoropoulos and others sickened by Havana Syndrome. Wow. How many?

[Mark Zaid]

Almost two dozen, give or take.

[Dan Taberski]

Wow. The big question, of course, what is causing these unexplained symptoms? Is this an attack or is something else going on? Some other kind of contagion, maybe psychological, Some sort of diplomatic burnout?

[Mark Zaid]

If you are a CIA case officer, you are generally the best of the best. These are high, high performers. These are people who will work 70, 80 hours a week. These are people who will stay up for 42 hours in a time to do their job, who will sacrifice their personal life for their professional life. And then all of a sudden to just dynamically change to where they can't get out of bed out of the blue, something happened.

[Dan Taberski]

Why do you think you have a.

[Emily]

TBI from what happened in Moscow?

[Dan Taberski]

Mark Palomaropoulos what do you think happened in Moscow?

[Emily]

So, you know, there's and kind of knowing the Russians, I think it was some type of directed energy attack or it was a deliberate, you know, offensive weapon. There was no doubt in my mind that something happened. Absolutely zero doubt. The symptoms are consistent.

[Dan Taberski]

And it's not just something happened, that it was an attack.

[Emily]

Clearly. Yeah.

[Dan Taberski]

And the difference between, say, burnout and an attack, it's more than just semantics. It raises the stakes pretty freaking high.

[Mark Zaid]

A like in the CIA, they're an ostrich putting their head in the sand.

[Dan Taberski]

Attorney Mark Zaid Again, they don't want to know.

[Mark Zaid]

If they know, they don't want to tell people and if they don't know, they don't, they don't want to know basically what they know, they'll know. And some of it I can understand.

[Dan Taberski]

Say that again. Say that again.

[Mark Zaid]

They don't want to know what they know, they don't want to know. Meaning if the domestic incidents are legit, if the international incidents are legit, but more so if the domestic incidents are legitimately foreign power attacking Americans, it's an act of war. It is an outright act of war.

[Dan Taberski]

So those are the facts of Havana Syndrome or one version of them from someone who has it, from someone who is not just sick, but actively suffering. But there is another version, and Mark Polymoropoulos does not want to hear it.

[Dr. Robert Bartholomew]

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[Jason]

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[Jason]

And I would love for you to join me for new episodes of my podcast Making Space. Each week I'm having conversations with authors, actors, speakers and dear friends of mine. Folks who are seeking the truth, compassion and self discovery. I promise you will leave these talks stronger and inspired to make space in your own life for growth and change. To start listening, just search Making Space wherever you get your podcasts and follow for new episodes every Wednesday.

[Dr. Patricia Garavici]

There's more evidence for Bigfoot and the Chupacabra than there is of microwave attacks.

[Dan Taberski]

Heads up sarcastic sociologists coming in hot.

[Dr. Patricia Garavici]

Space aliens would be more plausible this.

[Dan Taberski]

Is Dr. Robert Bartholomew. The book he co wrote on mass psychogenic illness has been sitting on my desk for over a year. Mostly because it's too big to move. You could sink a body in the Hudson with it. So committed is he to cataloguing the thousand year rap sheet of mass hysteria.

[Dr. Patricia Garavici]

It's important to realize that human beings are meaning oriented creatures. We are fallible and we are prone to seeing things that aren't there, to hearing things that aren't there, and believing in things that never were.

[Dan Taberski]

In 2020, Bartholomew Co wrote another book, this one a much slimmer and frankly much angrier book. Debunking Havana Syndrome as Mass Hysteria could.

[Dr. Patricia Garavici]

Be a microwave, could be a sonic weapon, could be space aliens. But we have something out there that has been documented for millennia and I would submit to you that that's far more likely than all these other explanations.

[Dan Taberski]

Starting with what many had come to see as the facts of the mystery.

[Dr. Patricia Garavici]

People say to me, they say, you don't know what you're talking about. Concussion like symptoms, white matter tract changes, hearing loss, brain damage. That's not mass hysteria. But that's not what happened.

[Dan Taberski]

In fact, much of the evidence that was leaked in those first few weeks of panic over Havana syndrome dissolved like wet sugar cubes when the actual reports and findings were released. For example, one study was reported to show major hearing loss in a significant number of the victims.

[Dr. Patricia Garavici]

So when they interviewed the patients, they asked them, do you think you have hearing loss? About a third said they did. But when they actually gave them the objective hearing tests, only two had hearing loss, both of whom had pre existing hearing loss before they went to Cuba.

[Dan Taberski]

Same with the so called immaculate concussions that early reporting on brain anomalies, like changes in the brain's white matter upon closer look, were maybe not so unusual. In one study done on 21 Havana.

[Dr. Patricia Garavici]

Victims, three people had white matter tract changes, two were mild, one was moderate. If you walked down the streets of Sleepy Hollow this morning, you would find a similar breakdown.

[Dan Taberski]

An NIH study would later show that as a group there was little difference in the brain structure or function of the Havana Syndrome victims compared to their colleagues without symptoms. And then there's that sound. The One some victims say accompanied the onset of symptoms. Potentially the sound of the weapon itself. Entomologists chimed in, saying that in fact, the sound was most likely an unusual breed of cricket. Fact is, as far as mainstream technology goes, there is no weapon. It doesn't exist. It's possible there's a bunch of reporting out there that shows how it might work or that illustrates a concept that would make it possible one day. But no one has presented any weapon capable of causing the specific battery of symptoms described by the victims, Especially one that could do so without leaving a mark on the victim's body in the process. Bartholomew suggests instead that there was something even more powerful at work than a new weapon, and that is the belief in a new weapon.

[Dr. Patricia Garavici]

Mass psychogenic illness is based on a belief. We all have beliefs, therefore we are all potential victims.

[Dan Taberski]

All the politicians suggesting an attack, all the ruminating in the media about this new mysterious weapon, all the warnings about the telltale sound and the cautionary instructions to get off the X when you hear it. And all of that in the context of these genuinely stressful and sometimes dangerous jobs, Often in places like Cuba and Russia, where there was already a Cold War history of harassing U.S. foreign workers. And now, at a time when the entire world was doubting whether America could even be trusted anymore at all. Bartholomew believes it all helped foster fear of an attack strong enough to trick the mind into creating the physical symptoms in the the body, or to corral symptoms from something else into confirming that you've been attacked. And sometimes belief is so strong, so real, that it can spread to the people who believe in you. Like a fellow CIA officer that you've been in the trenches with, or your best friend on the cheerleading squad. Belief can make it true for them, too.

[Dr. Patricia Garavici]

Just like going back to salem in the 1690s. Back then, it was triggered by the fear of witches and demons. Here, this was triggered by the fear of some type of sonic and then later microwave weapon.

[Dan Taberski]

From Bartholomew's point of view, the whole thing tracks with a similar pattern to other outbreaks. Outbreaks like the one in Leroy. Outbreaks which at first glance might seem like totally different animals. We've got physiological, often neurological symptoms like vertigo, migraines, hearing loss. We've got the lack of any provable organic cause to those symptoms. We've got symptoms that are not only spreading, but spreading almost exclusively in a pre existing social group. In this case, American foreign workers. One big wrinkle though. The victims here, it's gotta be said, are not teenage girls. They're guys. Like Mark Palomeropoulos.

[Emily]

You know, I'm not the toughest guy in the world, but I've been in embassies that were attacked by terrorist groups. You know, I've been for years in Iraq and Afghanistan, been shot at a million times, been rocketed.

[Dan Taberski]

Whatever your opinions about what they do and how some of the afflicted are serious warriors. They don't succumb to stress. They dole it out. They're trained to have deep wells of grit to call upon. They neutralize things. I've talked to some CIA officers and they have said, and they will say that they're tough, they're smart, they're trained to deal with this type of stress. Is that wrong?

[Dr. Patricia Garavici]

That's wrong. That's wrong.

[Dan Taberski]

Here's Dr. Bartholomew.

[Dr. Patricia Garavici]

We are all fallible human beings. And just because you're a CIA officer. No, you are just as prone as anyone else. The human mind is a very powerful thing. Whether it's Havana Syndrome, whether it's what happened in Leroy. Hysteria is alive and well.

[Emily]

You know, all I'll say on this issue is the idea that this is somehow psychogenic mass hysteria. I mean, that just doesn't apply to me. It just. And some of my other colleagues.

[Dan Taberski]

Why?

[Emily]

I mean, because I wasn't thinking of this. How can it be? I'm in Moscow on a trip. I'm not worried, I'm not stressed, I'm not scared. I'm not thinking of Havana Syndrome. How is this and what happened to me, you know, psychogenic? That doesn't. How is it mass hysteria? That makes no sense to me.

[Dan Taberski]

It's a fair point. At the initial onset of his symptoms, why would he have been worried about Havana Syndrome? It was only happening in Havana at the time. He's thousands of miles away in Moscow.

[Emily]

The cases. I know, it just doesn't make any sense. So I just think we have to be really careful on that. And I think it's. It's, you know, it's. It's. It's really difficult for some of the victims because again, then you turn into the kind of the, you know, I was abducted by an alien, right? And that, you know, I'll start fighting someone when they say that to me.

[Dan Taberski]

So for you, functional disorder or psychogenic illness is the same as saying that you were abducted by an alien.

[Emily]

Because it makes no sense.

[Dan Taberski]

Hey, that's the second time someone brought up aliens.

[Dr. Patricia Garavici]

The first, space aliens, would be more plausible than a microwave attack.

[Dan Taberski]

As much as the world loves a sarcastic sociologist, I'm not sure the Mildly insulting certainty approach is super helpful here, because while an attack by aliens might be more likely than a microwave weapon for Dr. Bartholomew, for Polymoropoulos, the one who's sick in this situation, it's mass hysteria. That feels like the off the wall option. And neither will budge in their beliefs. Heels have been dug in now. They both don't want to know what they know. They don't want to know, and I certainly don't know. So I went to someone for whom all of this is a little less fraught. Is this where you actually do analysis? Yes.

[Mark Polymeropoulos]

Behind you, you have the Freudian couch or.

[Dan Taberski]

Oh, people lie down. Yep.

[Mark Polymeropoulos]

Some people lie down.

[Dan Taberski]

I stayed right side up for my entire conversation with Dr. Patricia Garavici. She's a psychoanalyst who's written extensively on mass hysteria, including cases in the US military in the 1950s. I'm here in her office in Philadelphia. That's where Garavici lives now. But the accent is all. Buenos Aires. A city known for having more psychoanalysts per capita than anywhere else in the world. Suck on that, Vienna.

[Mark Polymeropoulos]

We like to imagine that we're always in control of ourselves. I think what hysteria does is maybe the humbling realization and we are not in control.

[Dan Taberski]

Listen to the way that Garavici talks about hysteria. It's a real specific tone.

[Mark Polymeropoulos]

This is the amazing quality of hysteria. It's a rebellious character, may say, that does not want to accept the constraints imposed by society.

[Dan Taberski]

Hysteria is rebellious. Hysteria won't accept constraints of society. Garavici talks about hysteria like it's a person. Like the contagion itself is alive, like it's screwing with us.

[Mark Polymeropoulos]

I'm really. I'm full of admiration that you're addressing this, because it's really like a Pandora box hysteria.

[Dan Taberski]

I know, I know. I tend to be attracted to those things.

[Mark Polymeropoulos]

That's fantastic.

[Dan Taberski]

There's something profoundly queasy about even having this conversation about mass hysteria at all. Because if you're doing it honestly and forthrightly, it requires you to look in the eye of a person who's sick, a CIA officer or a senior at leroy High School, and suggest in a way that they're not. At least not in the way that they believe they are. Like, if you tell somebody that they're a hysteric, like, nobody wants to hear that.

[Mark Polymeropoulos]

This is interesting. He said nobody wants to hear. But maybe they want to be heard. And that would be my position.

[Dan Taberski]

They want to be heard. For Dr. Garavici, the point isn't the debunking or the debating what's hysterical and what's not. Rather, it's more just about the attention we give it to really hear what hysteria has to say.

[Mark Polymeropoulos]

Hysteria has that proteic characteristic. It changes it, in a way, follows the times. And at times, it could be taken as a sort of social barometer.

[Dan Taberski]

A social barometer, meaning if it's happening, it's often bigger than just the medical symptoms of the people experiencing it. Here's an example. In 1914, less than a year into World War I, soldiers began returning from the front with, you guessed it, unusual symptoms. Dizziness, severe tremors, headaches, strange gaits and limps. The symptoms seemed to occur after soldiers were exposed to the noise and impact of shelling at close proximity in combat. They began calling the condition shell shock, believing that the force of the blasts had caused injury to the brain. But as the war wore on and shell shock patients kept coming in, the doctors began to realize that many of the victims had never been anywhere near enemy shelling. It came to be understood that the symptoms were caused not just by proximity to exploding bombs, but proximity to the horrors of war, period. Soldiers would come back with impaired speech, with mutism, with temporary blindness, with paralysis. There was one case written up in a medical journal of a soldier with paralysis in just one part of his body, the trigger finger. All physically real symptoms that spoke not just of the individual soldier, but to the world that created the situation. He was in the largest, bloodiest, most technologically destructive war that the world had ever seen.

[Mark Polymeropoulos]

The hysteric person may not know why they're having the symptoms, but there is a concealed truth in them that the.

[Dan Taberski]

Hysteric is essentially saying, with the language of hysteria, that something is not right.

[Mark Polymeropoulos]

Exactly. And at the many different levels, at the personal level, at the social level, at the political level. So each individual case contains multitudes. To paraphrase the poet, wow, wow, wow, wow.

[Dan Taberski]

On some level, the symptoms of any mass psychogenic illness aren't just about the person exhibiting the symptoms. It's not just medical, it's social, it's cultural. It's about all of us.

[Mark Polymeropoulos]

I cannot but being grateful to hysterics and take hysteria seriously and give it back its dignity. I think it's the best answer you could give to hysteria. It's just shut up if you don't have anything worthy to say but listen. Because that listen could be illuminating.

[Emily]

But I have to kind of frame it, right? So, gee, some of these pictures, I mean, I can't really. There's A lot of stuff. There's some tragedy up on the top, right there's the coffins coming back on the US Air Force plane from coast.

[Dan Taberski]

Back in Mark Palomaropoulos basement, he's got a whole wall with the mementos of a quarter century career.

[Emily]

You guys are gonna think I'm crazy with that bottom one on.

[Dan Taberski]

It's a meme. He printed out a picture with a caption that says, america, we will kill you when you're asleep on Christmas.

[Emily]

Sorry, I thought that was really funny.

[Dan Taberski]

Well, it's funny if you see that. It's got the Washington Cross in the Delaware. General Washington crossing the Delaware on Christmas. Turning point in the war. It's funny when you're 49, but most of the things on Mark's wall aren't funny at all.

[Emily]

Well, that's me and our commander of our own old Afghan unit who was killed the next day.

[Dan Taberski]

Oh, my gosh.

[Emily]

Yep. He was a great man.

[Dan Taberski]

Wow.

[Emily]

And then here's, you know, on this side is some of the awards I've received.

[Dan Taberski]

His medals are displayed in a glass cabinet.

[Emily]

There's some great things that we did, and then there's some things where there were some awful consequences, some operations. So I don't really brag about this stuff, but this is.

[Dan Taberski]

This is not just one or two.

[Emily]

Yeah, several. Four intelligence medals.

[Dan Taberski]

I can't say if Mark Polymeropoulos is the victim of a mass psychogenic illness or not. And that's not just my fact checker Natsumi making sure I cover my ass. I really don't know. There are some cases, dozens of them, that still have not been explained. And news reports still pop up resurrecting the possibility of Russian involvement. Never anything definitive, never a smoking gun. But anyone looking at Havana Syndrome seriously has got to concede that some sort of an attack in a small number of these cases is at least possible. That the chances may be extremely low, but they're not zero. But it's not hard to hear, listening to Mark, how his job had its own stress and trauma beyond what might be manageable for any person. A turmoil that might boil over into physical symptoms.

[Emily]

I think the Distinguished Intelligence Medal is the agency's second highest award.

[Dan Taberski]

And it's also not hard to hear how the experiences he speaks of and the symptoms he describes might be about more than just him.

[Emily]

Our job was simply to kill Al Qaeda and the Taliban. That's was simple, pure, and we're really good at it. And then I have to come back and kind of be a normal Human after that. So a perfect example is when the shrinks at Walter Reed come up to you and they say, do you have any regrets for the stuff you've done? And everyone's like, fuck, no, not at all. Yeah, when I talk like this and stuff, when my wife hears it later, she's like, you sound like a lunatic.

[Dan Taberski]

It is a weird vibe, though I will say you do sound like a lunatic a little bit.

[Emily]

You know, we were killing people who were trying to kill Americans. Sorry, that's just fine. You know, and so, I mean, I'm sure a psychiatrist will say, okay, you know, you actually need a lot of therapy based on that. Not in my old world. I was just fine with that.

[Dan Taberski]

So, listen, do you remember Havana Syndrome? That mysterious thing where these diplomats. Two months after my conversation with Mark Polymeropoulos, the National Intelligence Council issued a report. But not just any report. It promised to be the report, the mother of all reports, the finalish word on the cause of Havana Syndrome.

[Jason]

Well, today we are now learning that.

[Dan Taberski]

One thing has been ruled out about what happened. The report investigated around a thousand cases of havana syndrome since 2016. In the end, most were ultimately judged to have some other logical explanation besides some sort of advanced weapon. For example, one outbreak at the American Embassy in Syria would later be blamed on food poisoning. Only a couple dozen cases remained that still could not be explained. Mark considers himself in that group. But the report concludes Havana Syndrome is almost certainly not caused by a neurological attack from a foreign adversary.

[Emily]

Hey there. How's it going?

[Dan Taberski]

Good, man. How are you? How are you feeling?

[Emily]

I'm actually feeling okay. I mean, just. I mean, the headaches come, you know, come and go.

[Dan Taberski]

So I spoke to Mark again a few days after that report was released. Did they call you before the report came out to tell you it was coming?

[Emily]

Yeah, I mean, everybody in Washington knew this was coming. And Bill Burns, the CI director, called me as well before the report. So that was, you know, wow. Because I think he knew that this would upset a lot of us. It was a little disheartening. I think for a lot of the victims, it was a bit of a gut punch.

[Dan Taberski]

But not surprisingly, hysteria loves a twist.

[Emily]

Now, where all of this doesn't make any sense, just fundamentally, where it doesn't make sense is since we talked last, I have received Tavanek compensation, which is a huge.

[Dan Taberski]

You finally did.

[Emily]

I did. That's a huge development.

[Dan Taberski]

Mazel tov. After years of victims pressing for acknowledgement, President Biden signed the Havana act into law. The Havana and Havana act is an acronym, and it's a telling one. Havana. Helping American victims afflicted by neurological attacks.

[Emily]

How do you mesh those two things together? You're saying it's nothing, yet the US government, DoD, and the same entities are actually compensating us for an injury in the line of duty. How do you say that, but at the same time say it's nothing? I mean, it's just counterintuitive. And you can't have it both ways. How are these two things true at once? I don't get that. And, you know, my daughter who's in college, you know, just graduated college, kind of, you know, she's scratching her head and she said, dad, how do you get money for what happened to you? But then they're telling you it didn't happen. I said, that's a hell of a question.

[Dan Taberski]

It is a hell of a question, isn't it? How can it's totally mass hysteria and it's not mass hysteria both be true, and not just for Havana syndrome, for the outbreak in Leroy, and for the increasing number of hysterical situations that, as one expert put it to me, are exposing the fissures in society. Well, next time, we're going to delve deep right into one of those fissures.

[Dr. Robert Bartholomew]

And that's the last thing that I remember.

[Jason]

Hey, bro, I don't feel right. I don't feel right.

[Dan Taberski]

And we'll see what happens when we try to have it both ways.

[Emily]

I mean, this myth is just won't die.

[Hoda Kotb]

He had fentanyl.

[Emily]

He had fentanyl.

[Dan Taberski]

Narcan. Narcan.

[Jason]

Narcan.

[Dan Taberski]

And then back to Leroy and the appearance of a mysterious physician and this doctor in New Jersey. A lot of these kids are saying they're getting better from his treatment, where they try to have it both ways, too.

[Jason]

The symptoms were gone, and I thought, okay, there's the proof. There's my evidence. To me, this is what it was.

[Dan Taberski]

That's coming up on Hysterical. Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes early and ad free right now by joining Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] survey. And if you have a tip about a story that you think we should investigate, please write to [e-mail] tips. Hysterical is a production of Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios. Our lead producer is Henry Malofsky. Our associate producer is Marie Alexa Kavanagh. Producer, Sophie Bridges Managing Producer Erin Kelly Senior Producer Lena Masizzi Additional production by Zandra Ellen Diane Hodson is our editor. Our Executive Editor is Joel Lovell. Fact checking by Natsumi Ajisaka Mixing by Hannis Brown. Our head of Sound and engineering is Raj Makhija. Original music composed and Performed by Dina McAdy Legal Services for Pineapple street from Crystal Tupia For Wondery, our senior producers are Lizzie Bassett and Claire Chambers. Coordinating producer Mar Mariah Gossett Senior Managing Producer Callum Plews. Hysterical is written and executive produced by me. I'm Dan Tabursky. Our executive producers for Pineapple street are Max Linsky, Henry Maloski, Asha Saludja and Jenna Weiss Berman. Executive producers for Wondery are Morgan Jones, Marshall Louie and Jen Sargent. Thanks for listening.

[Jason]

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