Generated $2.5B With Performance Marketing - Cem Atik

Summary

Proven Podcast: “Generated $2.5B With Performance Marketing – Cem Atik”

Host: Charles Schwartz
Guest: Cem Atik
Date: May 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features Cem Atik, an accomplished German operator renowned for buying, scaling, and selling SaaS and e-commerce businesses—amassing over $2.5 billion in revenue. Cem walks listeners through his philosophy and process: spotting undervalued or distressed businesses, diagnosing operational weaknesses, and executing effective, data-driven turnarounds for massive exits. The conversation is practical, tactical, and refreshingly direct, with actionable advice for entrepreneurs, operators, and aspiring acquirers.

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Cem’s Background, Philosophy, and $2 Billion Track Record

• Cem’s Model in a Nutshell:
  “We buy businesses, we scale them and then we sell them. Really, really simple. Mainly…e-commerce and SaaS businesses.” (01:00)
• Attitude: Less hype, more results. Cem frames his approach as a playbook: use rigorous evaluation, fix the essentials, scale, and exit with discipline.
• Revenue:
  “We reached last year $2 billion.” (01:38) – All from businesses Cem acquired and scaled, not those he founded.

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Sourcing Undervalued Businesses

Key Points:

• Inspired by Buffett:
  Cem references Warren Buffett’s approach—find undervalued businesses, partner, and unlock value.
  “What he does is pretty much the same only in another industry…” (02:18)
• Targeting Distressed Assets:
  Cem often acquires companies near bankruptcy, maximizing leverage.
  “A business that makes 30 million revenue last year can be maybe sold this year for 1 million.” (03:02)
• Deal Flow via Network:
  His access to deals is primarily through an extensive network of M&A consultants—paid above-market to send him the best opportunities.
  “We have a huge M and a network over 200, 300 m and a consultants…” (03:35)
  “So you win with money basically. If a M&A consultant usually get 5%, we pay him maybe 7.” (03:51)

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Cem’s Criteria: What Makes a Business Worth Buying?

1. Financial Fundamentals – Unit Economics

• The top metric: cost per user vs. revenue per user.
• “A lot of people are underestimating this a lot. How much my software costs until the user can use it is a really important metric.” (04:38)
• Healthy profit margins and lean overheads are essential:
  “If you don’t have a control about your unit economics…you’re just spending like 35%, 50, 60% in overhead…that’s a big no no for us.” (05:13) 2. Operational Simplicity
• Streamlined, not overly complicated businesses preferred, making scaling easier.

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Diagnosing Why Good Products Don’t Scale

• Two Common Bottlenecks:
  1. No sales team
  2. Ineffective lead generation
     “Sometimes it is as easy…they don’t have a sales team…their lead gen is not really effective enough.” (06:13)
• “You just need to talk about a pain point…make me much more clear that I have this pain point and then sell me the solution for it.” (08:55)

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Cem’s Step-by-Step Growth Playbook

Example: Telehealth Business (Minoxidil)

• Sell the outcome — not the product.
  “You don’t sell minoxidil. You sell a lifestyle, a feeling, a result.” (07:35)
• Tailor messaging to outcome or pain relief (e.g., hair regrowth or improved mental health).
• Be precise, empathetic, and solution-oriented in every marketing campaign.

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Standing Out in Crowded Markets

• Signal vs. Noise:
  “You should maybe just more think about like how can I combine my solution also with a no brainer offer.” (09:45)
• Tactical Example: Offer two weeks free vs. one week; always test new offers.
  “As more angles you find…as better you can grow…” (11:01)
• Never Stop Testing:
  “You just do AB test over a B test, test different angles, different offers and try to figure out what is working the best.” (11:17)

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What’s Proven to Work? (A/B Testing & Offers)

• Free Trials Significantly Increase Conversions
  “People who are able to do free trials, they are much, much more likely to convert…” (12:28)
• Strong Onboarding:
  “Services which have a great onboarding process...convert up to 40% higher.” (13:01)
  • Simple video intros (Loom videos) dramatically boost onboarding.
• Dashboard Tips:
  Highlighting key buttons or steps in onboarding encourages user engagement and exploration.
  “If you just highlight something, people want to click on it…” (13:51)

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Channel Selection: Where Does the Growth Come From?

• Highest ROI:
  “The highest return of investment do you actually get on LinkedIn and on Reddit.” (15:00)
• Organic Content is King:
  “Writing a piece of content is definitely much cheaper than when you just…do ads over meta.”
• Quickest Growth:
  Meta, Google, TikTok (especially affiliate marketing), and “shorts” like YouTube Shorts and Instagram Reels can scale reach fast, but often at a higher ad cost.
  “Everywhere where you can post organic content and has the chance to go viral is a good platform, if you just are low in budget in the beginning at least.” (16:16)

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UGC, AI, and Building Social Proof

• Early-Stage Video Content: Use real people, especially founders, for authenticity.
• Leveraging Students for UGC:
  “Make a post on LinkedIn, say that you are looking for students…They should just promote your product. You just send them a framework…” (17:48)
• AI for Scripting/Ideation, People for Delivery:
  “The only thing that AI should do in the beginning is maybe writing scripts, helping you to find the right frame…” (17:20)
• Organic Channels Defined:
  TikTok, YouTube Shorts, Instagram Reels, and LinkedIn.

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Scaling Pain: Handling Surges and Operations

• Start With the Landing Page:
  “You can do the best ads in the world…If your landing page is not converting, it is not converting point.” (19:22)
• Resource:
  “Baymart Institute”—CRO/UX research for e-commerce.
  “There is no better source that you just can find to get valuable and valid information than the Baymart Institute.” (20:37)
• Other Tools:
  • OnePage IO (landing page builder)
  • Vercel (SaaS deployment)
  • Custom dashboards for real-time metrics
• Automation:
  Maximize AI/cloud code for repetitive tasks; outsource when needed.

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Handling Scaling Hurdles: Fulfillment, Support, and Providers

• Outsource Wisely:
  “If you just hire free people for people, that is mostly at least twice…more expensive than hiring a good service provider…” (26:59)
• Provider Sourcing:
  Mostly via Cem’s network or referrals, with reputation and experience as key screens.
• Ideal SaaS Customers:
  “If you’re just solving an issue from an audience that has money…that’s a huge indicator.”

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Cem’s ‘Hard Pass’ List & Pet Peeves

• Unit Economics is King:
  “I would love it more than everything else if everyone would care about their unit economics as like they care like a family member.” (31:37)
• Skepticism around claimed profit margins; Cem always double-checks P&L and headcount claims.

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Cem’s Roadmap for Companies He Passes On

• Action List (for Businesses to Fix):
  • Prioritized steps to grow revenue or cut costs
  • Mind maps of manual tasks to automate or outsource with AI (e.g., “Let us say you’re just doing Google Ads…You can write a script that is doing this automatically point.” 35:25)

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AI, Data, and the Future

• Automate to Save Labor:
  Repetitive optimization tasks in ads, reporting, etc., are automated using cloud code or custom scripts.
• AI as a Sparring Partner, Not a Guru:
  “Don’t see Claude as a source of knowledge. See…as a sparring’s partner that has a different opinion.” (42:58)
• Best Life Advice:
  “Just using it as a sparing partner. Claude is your friend. And Claude will help you make your life easier. Accept that and use Claude for that.” (43:52)
• Tools:
  • Cloud code
  • Gamma.app (for presentations)
  • Make.com (integrations/automations)
  • ClickUp (project management)

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Case Study Highlights & “Grand Slams”

• Big Win Example (Details Masked for Confidentiality):
  • “We just started to work…on a SaaS business which was doing barely seven digits…after 12 months…first 45 million in revenue and right now…passing 100 million annually…” (45:28–46:31)
  • Emphasis: Consistent, high-velocity testing and execution driven by available data.

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Where to Learn More & Cem’s Final Advice

• Key Learning Sources:

  • Google: find case studies from platforms like HubSpot
  • LinkedIn: engage with active SaaS and E-commerce operators
  • Feed learning into AI (Claude/cloud code) for brainstorming

• Connect with Cem:
  “LinkedIn is the best source of contacting me…My title is 2 billion plus in revenue. Exit ready by design, we build what buyers want.” (46:45–47:03)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Business Models:
  “You win with unit economics from the beginning and also by the exit.” (23:01)
• On Product Messaging:
  “People are not buying minoxidil…They buy minoxidil because they expect a result…Selling the result and the feeling is much better…” (07:35–08:15)
• On Scaling Culture:
  “You’re going to do the same amount of work no matter what you’re doing. Might as well do it for people who can pay you thousands of dollars.” (30:29)
• On AI’s Limitation:
  “What I still don’t see—maybe I’m a bit too skeptical at this point—is that AI…really start to thinking by itself based on your mind…” (39:43)
• On Openness:
  “Even if we are not interested to invest in them, we always give them a little roadmap or an audit…We just always try to provide value. Because I already did the work to make my own research—why I should just not give them this information for free.” (33:13–33:46)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Topic | Timestamp | |---------------------------------------|---------------| | Cem’s philosophy and revenue model | 00:41 | | Finding undervalued businesses | 02:14 | | Deal flow & incentive structures | 03:35 | | Assessing unit economics | 04:38 | | Bottlenecks in scaling | 06:13 | | Offer positioning & outcome selling | 07:35 | | Standing out in the market | 09:30 | | AB testing and winning offers | 11:43 | | Onboarding & conversion optimization | 13:00 | | Channel ROI: LinkedIn, Reddit | 15:00 | | UGC, AI, and organic content | 17:48 | | CRO tool: Baymart Institute | 20:37 | | Tools: OnePage IO, Vercel, Gamma.app | 21:56–24:13 | | Handling customer service/chargebacks | 25:07 | | Sourcing trusted providers | 27:12 | | Why unit economics matter | 31:37 | | Example AI automation: Google Ads | 35:25 | | AI as sparring partner, not oracle | 42:58 | | Cem’s biggest SaaS growth win | 45:28 | | How to connect with Cem | 46:45 |

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Key Takeaways

• Know Your Numbers: Master your unit economics like your business depends on it—because it does.
• Scale What Works and Test Without Ego: Relentless, data-driven A/B testing is crucial. Double down on what converts.
• Sell Outcomes, Not Products: Make your offer about the customer’s aspiration or pain, not the technical feature.
• Leverage Network and Incentives: The best deals come from trusted connections and the right financial incentives.
• Automate & Outsource Intelligently: Use AI for repetitive tasks, but keep skilled, reputable partners in key roles.
• Stay Open, Keep Learning: All the winning tactics are available—find case studies, network, and use AI as your brainstorming buddy.

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“I would love it more than everything else if everyone would care about their unit economics as like they care like a family member. Because this is more important than everything else.”
— Cem Atik (31:37)

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For more from Cem Atik, connect on LinkedIn (search “Cem Atik — 2 billion plus in revenue, Exit Ready by Design”).

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the proven podcast where we don't care what you think, only what you can prove. On this episode, Gem Matiek, the German operator who's generated $2 billion in revenue buying, scaling and selling SaaS&E commerce companies, breaks down how to spot undervalued businesses, fix what's broken and scale them into massive exits. The show starts now. All right, everybody, welcome back. Kam, I'm excited to have you on

[B]

the show, have you to be here.

[A]

So there's a couple of people out here who know about sales and they know about scaling, they know about SaaS, but they might not know about you. So give everybody a little bit of an idea of what you've done, the revenue that you've generated. Give everybody a little bit of detail to who you are and what you've done.

[B]

Sure, yeah. I'm Sam from, From. From Germany. Basically a small marketing nerd, I would say. And I made my passion to my job and also, like. Yeah, like, like my roadmap that I just want to share with people, I would say. So what I do is really simple. We buy businesses, we scale them and then we sell them. Really, really simple. Mainly we are just talking about e Commerce and SaaS businesses. Yeah, yeah. To just keep it quick. Yeah, that's pretty much it.

[A]

So, but when you talk about doing that, you've generated a certain number of revenue and sales and scaling. Can you talk a little bit about that to get the audience to go, what the heck? Because, Sam, it's a huge thing that you've.

[B]

Yeah. When we were just talking about how much revenue we generate for businesses, we are actively. Yeah, was working on. Yeah, we are. We reached last year $2 billion.

[A]

Little numbers. Nothing big. Little numbers there. So you've done 2 billion rev for the companies that you didn't even start. You just acquired them, you scale them, you systematize them, you go from there. So a lot of people are gonna have a lot of questions going, okay, I have a SaaS company, I wanna own a SaaS company, I wanna buy companies. Let's go through this whole process. Let's go through when you're looking for businesses to buy. And then we'll get to what we're doing. If you're scaling one, when you're looking for businesses to buy that are these SaaS companies, where are you looking and what are you looking for?

[B]

So the first thing is a couple years before, when we was starting with this idea, I was like thinking like, okay, how we can do that? And I just, I just trade since I'm 19 a lot. Yeah. And I was thinking about Warren Buffett. What he does is pretty much the same only in another industry. He just tried to figure out really undervalued businesses, get involved and grow together with them. And that's basically a pretty similar process. We do it a bit differently because we especially looking also for businesses that are going close to being bankrupt sometimes. So buying a business out from the insolvency, it's a huge leverage for us. Just imagine a business that makes 30 million revenue last year can be maybe sold this year for 1 million.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is insanely cheap for sure. Yeah. That, that's one thing. And the second thing is we usually, I mean this is, this is more a network thing. So it's not like you can do a lot of ads for it or you just can talk about it. We already do ads for that in Europe. Yeah. But mainly these contacts or these leads or businesses that could be interesting for us coming over our M and A network over the last years and also because we are investor backed. Happy to be able to say that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We have a huge M and a network over 200, 300m and a consultants.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That are interested to just give us the best possible deals because they know that the percentages that we share are much higher than the, than the competition.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So you win with money basically. So that means if a M and A consultant usually get 5%, we pay him maybe 7. Yeah. That he gives us the good leads. Sounds, sounds bad but the world, it

[A]

is, it's just how the world is. Absolutely. I do this with real estate for years where you know your real estate agents are going to get 1% or 2% of whatever they sell. I'm like well I'll give you six. And all of a sudden all the deals come to me first. I was like this is not complicated. This, it just, it's just how the world works. Now when I'm doing it in real estate, there's very specific things we're looking for. You're looking for very specific things in businesses and SaaS models. What are the things that you're looking for when you're looking for a business and they come to you and they're like hey, I used to make 30, I'm now worth one. How do you know that that one that has now 1 30th of the valuation. How do you know that it's actually going to be valuable and that you can monetize it?

[B]

So basically the most important things are the unit Economics, a lot of people are underestimating this a lot. How much my software costs until the user can use it is a really important metric. And no one has this on. Yeah, yeah. Overview this number, basically. Yeah. So how big is my overhead? Did I have another other Alpex cost? What are actually my monthly average cost that I have to provide the services is the most important thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If I know I do 50k in revenue and I pay only 10k in opex and overhead and whatever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I know that I have 40k. Yeah. Balance, you could basically. Or basically gross profit. Yeah. And I just need to pay taxes and other stuff. But I know my business is healthy. Right. So if you don't have a control about your unit economics. And I see. Yeah. Your P and L and I see that you're just spending like 35%, 50, 60% in overhead. Yeah. That's a big no no for us. Yeah. We're just looking for smart, lean, clean setups that are not too complicated to dive in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because once we dive in and make it bigger, I mean, you know how it is. Yeah. If you just scale a business, it's getting so freaking complicated.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And yeah. You don't need this from the beginning.

[A]

Right. So when you go in and if they're this lean and they've optimized this and they've. They've done their job really, really well, why do you think they're not making the profits? Why can't, why do you think they can't scale? What is their issue that they run to. If they've already built a system in Italy and they have the software that's operational, where are they failing?

[B]

That actually depends. Sometimes it is as easy. Like they don't have a sales team. Yeah. Sometimes it is like their lead gen is not. Not really. Yeah. Effective enough. Yeah. Like, so let us say you just do ads, Google Ads or meta ads. Yeah. And you just. Yes. Send people or you redirect them to your homepage. I mean, what the fuck? Why to your homepage.

[A]

Right.

[B]

What the hell is your intention? Yeah. You just want to sell a service, then promote your service on a way that someone can test it at least. At least a bit. Yeah. Before he actually be able to realize if he really needs this or not. Yeah. And that. That has basically changed the process completely. That's mostly the main issues. One, they don't have a really effective sales team. And the second one is that the lead gen is not optimized or they didn't even test offers. Right. And these Are the main core common issues actually.

[A]

So walk me through. People come to you and they're like, okay, I don't even know how to do lead gen. I don't even, I don't know how to do any of this. Walk me through kind of like a step by step what they need to do. Like, okay, your software is good, but your lead gen sucks. Your marketing sucks, your value ladder sucks. How do you walk them through? Can you imagine a company, we can either use an example or we'll just create one in our minds. You know, walk me through. What do they need to do? What are the next five things they need to do right now to turn this around?

[B]

Let us talk about telehealth as example. We have a business we are working with. They're doing telehealth. They selling minoxidil. Minoxidil is for hair growth for people like. Yeah. Who are not bold, like me. Yeah. So what happens here is you don't sell minoxidil. You sell a lifestyle, a feeling, a result. Yeah. And you just need to promote this result. Yeah. Not minoxidil at all. So instead of saying like, hey, buy our minoxidil, you just should change the ankle and say, hey, grow your hair back or yeah, six months until. Until your old hair is back. Something.

[A]

Something like that. So.

[B]

So you just need to be really precise and really sharp with what you are saying. Yeah. People are not buying minoxidil because they just went to buy minoxidil. They buy minoxidil because they expect a result for that. So selling the result and the feeling is much better. But let us stay on telehealth. Let us say you are just a platform for mental health.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So instead of saying, hey, I'm a platform for mental health. Come here and talk with people to, to get better. Yeah. You can say like, are you, are you depressed? We have people you I can talk with. Are you have X we can help you to do. Yeah. And this is always a thing. If you just want to sell something to me. You just need to talk about a pain point.

[A]

Yeah. Right.

[B]

You just need to talk about my pain point. Yeah. Just make it make me much more clear that I have this pain point and then sell me the solution for it. Yeah. And that's pretty much it.

[A]

So I think a lot of people get that. And we'll stay with the minoxidil side of the people going ball. There's a million people out there that sell a million offers. There's a billion people on Reddit there's a billion people all over the place that are showing, hey, this is what it looked like now. And then six months from now it looked like this. There's a bazillion people doing that. How do you break through all of that and become signal versus noise?

[B]

That actually depends on two factors. So first of all, did you really need to set yourself apart? This is the one more important thing. Sometimes there is. So there are so many niches, there are so competitive that you don't even need to sell something special.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because the demand is so important, so huge that you just can build a foundation, you do your groundwork and then you can just think about like how I set myself apart. That's the first thing. Let us say there is a niche which is also yeah. Medium competitive. Yeah. And you just want to find, yeah. A way out and set yourself apart. Then you should maybe just more think about like how can I combine my solution also with a no brainer offer. So that means you have minoxidil right now. Yeah, as example. Yeah, but everyone is charging $100 $200 for that. But you send one or even two weeks of testing for free as example. Yeah, it's only, only as an example feature. But yeah, you just need always to tweak your offer and also Tweak, tweak what exactly you just providing to your audience. Right. So as example you have still in telehealth, you can give them a week test, trial or at least one session for free. And look here, someone who used something and is happy with that will hundred times more interested to convert or to just buy the service instead of someone who has no idea about what you guys exactly are doing. And that's pretty much it. You just need to a B test your offer. And if you find something that works, don't stop up there, find more offers because as more angles you find as, as, as better there you can grow. Because let us say free free sample is working fine. Let us say yeah, 2 weeks free sample is working better than 1 weeks as example. Okay, then I know this. Yeah. So we stopped doing one. And, and that's basically a process. You just do a B test over a B test, test different angles, different offers and try to figure out what is working the best. And as more offers that works, you find as faster you can scale. That's how businesses scale from, from 0 to 7 or even 8 digits within a year because they don't stop to test. Right.

[A]

So what are some of the tests that you've done? Because you've done a lot of a B testing. What are some of the tests that you found? Like hey, these work. These are good ones versus the ones you've done. Like ah, you probably shouldn't try these. What are things that have work and then where do you test them? Is it Google Ads? Is it Facebook? Is it Graham? Is it where, where are you doing this? Because I agree with you. Results based marketing is king for me. It's always. It goes back to the idea like hey, is our product. This is Billy. This is what it looks like before, this is what's after. And you're selling a lifestyle. This is what we talk about all the time with Advil. Advil doesn't sell ibuprofen, the drug inside. They sell a little magic pill that gets you back to spending time with your kids or getting back to work or whatever it is. We get that. I think all of us understand that. But what are some of the AB testing that we run into? Like hey, you know what? You, you should probably do this. This works better than this.

[B]

That is pretty. I mean there, there is no just answer that you just can give over over every industry. But what you can say is that people who are able to do free trials, they are much, much more likely to convert than people without free trials. I mean we all know that that's, that's really common. But we can go a bit deeper. We figured out that services which have a great onboarding process. Yeah. Convert to up to 40% higher.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Than, than. Than softwares which have no onboarding process. So it don't need to be complicated. Yeah. You just need to tell them how you use your tool properly. Within video. Within short introduction. Yeah. A loom video is enough.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And even, even that people showing what the tool exactly does in action is something that increase the conversion rate. Yeah. And that is a B test that you just can test. And it's always successfully for the lume video. Yeah. With loom video. Without loom video. I mean test it, test it with whatever you want. You will always win with the Lumen. That is one a B test that is working really good. It's nothing special. Yeah. Also something about like when you just highlighting really important buttons in the dashboard.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So if you just highlight a button in the dashboard which is really necessary to move forward in the process to using the software. Right. A lot of people are not just realizing that, but if you just highlight something, people want to click on it and if they click on it and there is an error message. Why is it not working.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That is usually a trigger point that people are starting to explore the software. It's stupid, but that's really something that is working. Yeah. What else? There's so many tests. I mean, I have a whole library about that.

[A]

Right. So I'd love to hear more about the tests, but also where do you test them? Like, people are like, okay, I've done all these things, where do I send the loom videos, where do I send the intro, where do I spend my money? What is the best ROI on which platform? Because a lot of times people ask this and I'm like, well, it depends on where your platform lives, where your people live, depends on their watering hole. But have you found very specific platforms that have better ROI and convert on a higher level? Because again, if you're talking 2 billion in revenue, a lot of things you're doing that other people aren't, there's a reason your investors invest with you. What are some of those things?

[B]

So the highest return of investment do you actually get on LinkedIn and on Reddit? Yeah, maybe, maybe two channels that. Yeah. I mean everyone knows they, they are. Yeah. Massive. But no one has them as, as their main source on the channel. So when you are just on LinkedIn and you're just talking all. Always about the problem your service is solving. Yeah. Or the, the pain points of a lot of entrepreneurs, as example, people will start to ask questions, getting curious about what you're doing. Yeah. And writing a piece of content is definitely much cheaper than when you just. Yeah. Doing ads over meta.

[A]

Yeah. So, right.

[B]

The highest return of investment is really on organic content.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So Reddit maybe, maybe X LinkedIn that is working with the highest return of investment.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But you just need to be able to sell yourself, talking about pain points and be able to put this into the right frame that it's working for the audience you are targeting for. Right. The channels where you just can grow the fastest. The fastest is for sure, meta, Google and Also, I mean TikTok, TikTok affiliate is going also. Yeah. Getting bigger and bigger in this area.

[A]

Yeah,

[B]

but, but honestly, if you're just asking me, highest, highest return of investment. LinkedIn, Reddit, I would also say TikTok and maybe and maybe Instagram and also shorts. So every, everywhere where you can post organic content and has the chance to go viral is a good platform if you just are low in budget in the beginning at least. Yeah, definitely.

[A]

So from there, when people go into this, there's a lot of people that they try and give lead max they're like, oh, or they use USCG or they use these artificial AI people saying, hey, this is, I use this product and look at me. It's amazing. And we're getting skeptical of all that. Everyone's like, yeah, but that's, that's AI slot, that's this, that's that. When you're giving away free things, when you're doing these, these organic ones, how do you, are you using AI? Are you using other people to do it? Are you creating these reviews? What are some of the things that you're doing to help convert people?

[B]

So especially when you are in the startup phase, I definitely recommend you to do the videos with real people because I mean, let us say you are the co founder.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you just want to do founder ads. So that's the best thing. And the no brainer that you just. Yeah. Talking by yourself, that's first thing. The second thing is using AI works later on really great. But instead the only thing that AI should do in the beginning is maybe writing scripts, helping you to find the right frame, testing different angles. This is something where you can use AI really good. But honestly what I would do is make a post on LinkedIn, say that you are looking for students.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where you pay 50 or 100 bucks an hour for. And they should just promote your product. You just send them a framework and then you have like 100, 200, 300 UCG videos talking about your product.

[A]

Yeah. Right. And most people never think about that. Yeah.

[B]

I mean it's, it's so damn simple. I mean there are so many students on LinkedIn. Yeah. Who are, who are looking always for opportunity like that. That's one thing. And the second thing, you have in library about maybe 200, 300 UCG videos. Then you just give them to a color and then you have 500 videos. You can post them on your organic channel. You can just use them for ads. Anything that you just have in mind. Right. You can use them basically everywhere.

[A]

You've brought up organic channel a couple times and I know people are going to ask like what is he talking about? Organic channel? Is that like my blog? Is it my homepage? What do you mean by an organic channel for you?

[B]

Organic channels basically are in my opinion are TikTok for sure, YouTube shorts, Instagram Reels and LinkedIn also for sure. Right. You can also try X. Yeah. But I would stay on the three big ones, which is TikTok, YouTube shorts and Instagram for sure.

[A]

Gotcha. So from there let's talk about. All right, you're getting this business and most people don't have a problem when it comes to getting business. They were probably keeping up with it. How do you deal with the scale? How do you deal with this influx of all of this traffic? How do you deal with regulations and all that? So how do you, how do you handle that type of growth when all of a sudden there's an onslaught of people begging for your product in one day and you just don't have the platform for it.

[B]

The first thing that we always starting with is basically the website, the landing page, the lead magnet page, whatever we are starting with. Because you can do the best ads in the world. You can just do the best advertising in the world. If your landing page is not converting, it is not converting point. There is nothing else you could say there. So the first thing is just really create a page which is based on data. Yeah. Highly able to convert. Yeah. I mean there is a lot of websites you can check out. You can check out their competition.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I would recommend to check out in the E commerce space, maybe the Baymart Institute. It's a huge website. You can just buy a, a huge network platform. You can just buy a plan there and they just give you the new CRO updates. CRO conversion rate optimization.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which are really huge. Yeah. Which are really important and really huge. And that's pretty much it. You start on your page. If your page is not converting, there is no point to move forward. First thing is always your landing page, your offer. You just need to figure out, do a lot of a B test, do maybe five pages. Yeah. With different offers. Test them. Yeah. So that's the first thing. Once you set this up.

[A]

I'm going to interrupt here, what was the name of the website again? Because I'm literally going to write it down right now as well.

[B]

Baymart Institute. Let me just send it down to you. That's an institute which is working with the biggest brands, especially about E commerce. And there's Also one for SaaS. I will just check out my library. But I mean they're working together with Google, Adidas, Shopify, Levi's, Amazon and they do all of this UX research and tests and I mean there is no better source that you just can find to get valuable and valid information than the Baymart Institute.

[A]

I will. We'll put all these links in the show notes as well, give access to Sam. So because these are the tools that people want, these are the things that like okay, what the hell is Baybard Institute? Because I've been Doing this for a really long time. I've been scaling business for 20 years. I've never heard Baybard. I'm like, hold on, let me write this down. What the hell? Hold on. So what are the other tools? So now we're going into this, you open up, what are other tools of the trade that you have that you're using like Baymart, that are like, what the heck? This already does my CRO. For me, I never have to do this. Like for example, when years ago, I used to use something like template monster or themeforest.net because I didn't want to make websites because I'm just not making websites anymore. That cleared that problem up for like 16 bucks a pop. Those don't work anymore because they don't have the integrated CRO into it. So what are some of the other tools that you're using on a daily basis that get you there?

[B]

So for testing landing pages, usually we're using OnePage IO. It's a platform or a website builder. Yeah. Really common here in Europe. The good thing is in the days of cloud code, you just basically build a website, upload your CI, tell them exactly what you want, give them the information that it needs, and he builds an HTML code. Then you just can basically copy and paste. And then you have a perfect website.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you say like, hey, give me five different offers based on this. Yeah. And then you have five different websites in the same CI perfectly shaped in the shape you just want to test. Right. And yeah. In. I mean in old, if you just look like three or four years back. Yeah. It was really a mess. Yeah. To test new offers or new angles. Now it's a matter of minutes. Because you have cloud code. He is doing your pages. Yeah. At least the CI. And then you just maybe need to change up a text and that's it. You can just change, test five different offers at once.

[A]

Beautiful. So OnePage IO.

[B]

Yeah. OnePage IO is a huge tool we use. We have also made by. I mean my partner make this. Yeah. Because he's doing more the business development thing. He set up with our team a certain co dashboard, you could say with lovable. Yeah. Where you can see your most important metrics. Yeah. Which is really important because as I said. Yeah. You win with unit economics from the beginning and also also by the exit. By my exit. If you just want to make a business exit ready and want to make it attractive for investor, you just need to highlight your best numbers and you just need to be aware of your best numbers and that's why we using our own dashboard. Yeah. Where we can see all these numbers. Yeah. What is the customer lifetime value, what is the customer acquisition cost, all of these deals, how much we spend, how big is our return of investment, yada, yada, yada. All of these things that you just have in mind about other tools. For sure. Cloud code. We use a lot of cloud.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We also use, usually as a platform. We use vercel for our SaaS businesses.

[A]

Maybe.

[B]

Pretty sure you guys hear about that before. Vercel is a really great platform where you just can build and deploy. Yeah. SaaS projects. We usually like to work with Vercel because it's really simple and user friendly.

[A]

Beautiful. Now, so let's go through this. You're using these tools, you go through this process. We have to talk about fulfillment, we have to talk about scaling. When do you bring in other people? Where do you hire from when you're doing this? Because as you're bringing more problems on, there's customer service issues, there's chargeback issues, there's a bunch of all these other issues. When do you bring in real people? How much of that are you automating with AI? Because again, everyone hears the numbers. Oh, I've done 2 billion. Yeah. You don't hear all the headaches and the chargebacks and the customer service and all the other trash that comes with it. How do you deal with the, for lack of a better term, the shite that comes in with all of this?

[B]

So let us say we have just problems with chargeback. Yeah. Usually, I mean, people are using Stripe. Yeah. Or any other services. Yeah. Over the last years we have also. Yeah. Just getting in touch with a lot of service providers for sure. And if I know my chargeback rate is high because a lot of third party countries are using maybe the service. Right. Then there is a service that I just have in my network and I can just talk with them directly and say, okay, we just need you guys for this project. That's one thing. So a part of that is for sure networking and finding the best payment provider payment processor for your SaaS solution. That's one thing. Let us say we are just in a good position and we just want to expand to TikTok shop affiliate. Yeah. Then I have as example a good contact of mine. M. Yeah. He's doing this especially for SaaS businesses.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I just go to him and say like, hey Mika, we have a new project here. Can you just look over it? And he's checking it and says like, okay, I Can do this or I cannot do this. Yeah. And I mean everyone can just reach out, reach out to Mika. But here's one thing. We working on these different service providers on different projects. Yeah. So the pressure that I just put on a business. Yeah. Because he's working on like four or five projects is a total different story. And he will also rethink if he's just accepting a new project or not twice. Because you know, if he's failing a project. Yeah. He will just maybe lose also other projects. Because if I see someone is failing is just really off. I just change the service provider usually on all projects after a while. And that's. Yeah. And that's pretty much it. Yeah. You are just reaching points where you say, okay, I need another channel to expand our reach, our growth, our sales. Yeah. And then you just basically plug and play that services that we cannot provide by ourselves, we usually like to outsource because it's easy and it's cheap. If you just hire free people for people, that is mostly like at least twice or even three times more expensive than hiring a good service provider with a lot of reputation in this area.

[A]

So where do you find these service providers versus because it sounds like you're not hiring individuals. It sounds like you're not going on upwork. It sounds like you're. You're going and you're finding them in a different place. Where are you finding these people?

[B]

I mean, over the last years a lot of is in my network, but usually I find them over contact. Yeah. So asking someone as example, hey, did you know a good guy who's doing meta as example?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or. Or LinkedIn. LinkedIn is basically a really good source for that. So. Because how I decide which people work with me together depends really on two things. First of all, how is the wipe. If I just talk with the person, is it a cool guy? Is he great? That's really important. The personal note is really important. And the second thing is what are the businesses this guy worked before with? If I see brands like AG1, Leica, Pablo B. If I see big names behind him. Yeah. Then I know he will never ever risk at least a tiny bit of his reputation only for just getting another 5k more. Right. So I usually looking for people who have the luxury situation that they can decide. Yeah. With which they work together with. And they are usually not more expensive than service providers who don't. That's. That's a big myth.

[A]

Yeah. Right. Right. So if you're going in and people want to do this as well, are there part certain sizes that you're like, yeah, don't sell that, stop doing that. You know, like if you're going in and you're bringing this size provider versus Apple size provider, what are the ones that you know, convert really, really well versus the ones that are just complete. They don't convert at all when you're trying to scale them.

[B]

Yeah. So there is one thing that is really great in SaaS and that is if you're just solving an issue from an audience that has money. So that's a huge indicator. I mean if you just do anything for veterans, as example with your SaaS, the chance that you just will fail or your audience is much likely smaller is, I mean it's pretty obvious because veterans are, I mean how many veterans or the biggest popularity of veterans, you know, that they are maybe. Yeah. Not interested into that because they don't care.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So if I just go to handymans and try to sell them and SaaS solution for their phone, they will say like I use my phone since 20 years, why I should use now? Your solution. Right, Absolutely. But, but, but there's tolls. Yeah. And he's buying real estate and he has issues to manage all the, all the 500 apartments that he has. And if I can solve his issue there, it's huge. I, as example, I'm Ryanair right now. Right. And I can say five or even 10 minutes for every flight.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's, it's a no brainer because they, they save millions of dollars.

[A]

Yeah. So, right.

[B]

If you just can have an, if Your, if your SaaS solution can save people a ton of money, that's a huge thing and a huge no brainer. But you always need to be able to explain that properly that they understand it.

[A]

Right. So we, we talk about this all the time. You're going to do the same amount of work no matter what you're doing. Might as well do it for people who can pay you thousands of dollars versus paying you pennies. And we did this. And the best example I have is I taught someone human behavior in sales and he said, cool, I've mastered this ability to sell. I know it better than anybody else. I sent him down, he trained with it. I was like, cool, what are you gonna do now? He goes, I'm gonna find the most expensive product I can find to sell. Takes me the same amount of energy that gives me the best roi. So he went in and he sells access now into these huge funds all throughout Dubai and he's crushing it. Where this Other kid took the same amount of knowledge and the same training and, and went. And he's selling Netflix subscriptions. I'm like, you're screwed. It's the same amount of energy. It's the same thing. But you're going to make a dollar versus a hundred thousand dollars for each one of your closes. So it's just really simple, basic things like that. What are some of the pet peeves that you run into that you're like, God, I wish if I never talk to you. Cause I'm not buying your company because you're overvalued. And I want to get a one to 30 ratio, which is what you're normally working into. What are some of the things you wish you could tell owners of SaaS companies? You're like, guys, I wish you would just do this. Please, just for the love of God, do this.

[B]

Honestly, I would love it more than everything else if everyone would care about their unit economics as like they care like a family member. Because this is more important than everything else. I just talk with businesses which doing 100 million, even 150 million, and I say like, hey, we have really good numbers. We have a huge profit margin. And they say like, hey, we have an EBITDA about 55%. I was like, no, you don't have. And they said, yeah, we have. And I said, if you have that, the first thing that I do is get all my money, all my influence, that I can get my investors and give you 100, 200 million to bring this to work even better. Yeah. And say like, okay, let us see. So what we did is just. Yeah, creating a P and L with them together. And we see that it's not like just with this 55% EBITDA. Because what I see is these guys was doing 60 million and they had 40 employees. That is not working. 40 employees, 60 million, 55% EBITDA. No way.

[A]

No way, no way. There's no rest.

[B]

And we are talking about developers. Yeah. We are not talking about like, like, like someone who's working in a shop or so. We're talking about developers. They are insanely expensive.

[A]

So for now, for about another six, eight months, but after that they're going to be very cheap. Sorry, guys. Yeah, screwed up. When you walk into an environment like that and you're acquiring these businesses at a fraction of the cost, do you just wipe, say sorry guys, you're 55 or you 40 developers have a nice day and you give them all pink slips or how do you handle that normally?

[B]

So usually we are just looking from the beginning. Yeah. If someone has a huge overhead.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

At least our CFO is looking over it. And yeah, just try to give them some tips. Even if we are not interested to invest in them, we always give them a little roadmap or an audit. You could say like, hey, these are the things you guys should fix. Otherwise. Yeah. Later on you will fail.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's always something that we do. We just always try to provide value. Yeah. Because even if we are not working together with it's for free to help people. Because I already did the work to make my own research why I should just not give them this information for free. Why it's called nothing. Yeah. And I. Oh, and the work is already done.

[A]

Yeah. It's like having a podcast where all you do is give out proven information like this. What are some of the roadmaps that you do? Because again, I don't monetize this in any way, shape or form. What are some of the roadmaps of the things that your team gives to the people that are like, listen guys, we're not going to buy you. You're a lost cause at this point. Here's some stuff. Go do this. What are four or five things that you feel top of your mind that you normally give out?

[B]

So we usually give a roadmap with priority points on it. So that means based on their numbers and based on their current stage of the business, what are the points that have the most priority to F because they bring more revenue or they save more cost. That's usually the first list that we just give out. So like hey, reduce this because this is ending in X. Yeah. Hey, do this because you will generate estimated more revenue in X. Yeah, that's usually what we tell. And the second thing is for sure that we give them also a little mind map or. Yeah, a little. A little. Yeah. Mind map. You could say about like things they, they should just have that they currently have in their business that are manually that they could outsource or even optimize with AI. That's also something that we do because I mean there are so many things in in these days that you just can really simple automate with AI that costing you maybe 40 or 50% of. Of labor work. Right. And you just want to want to reduce that if it's working.

[A]

So can you give me an example of some of those things that you guys are automating with AI?

[B]

Really simple. Let us say you're just doing Google Ads.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Every day you need 30 minutes checking accounts and excluding search terms that spent money without revenue. Right. So you can write a script that is doing this automatically point. So that's one thing. 30 minutes every day. You can do this for search terms, for locations, for devices, for everything. Yeah. And if you just fully optimize your account, a Google Ads account as example, you save at least or your employee saving at least one hour. And he can just instead of focusing on optimizing, he can focus on the next steps to scale. Yeah, figuring out new, new new keywords. Just doing more A B testing into campaigns, doing more experiments and that's thing just focusing more on scale instead of optimizing or just. Yeah, spending time in optimizing that you just can automate with AI is really simple. Because it's really simple. Let us say you want to spend a $100 each search term max before you just made a decision. Then you say to a search term excluder, as example, a script that I built, by the way, hey, please check all keywords out that spend over a hundred dollars. If the return of investment is under one cut it point.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So simple stuff. And that saves you a lot of time, especially when you are just having ad accounts which spending 10 or 20k a day. It's a massive release in work.

[A]

And so when you're doing this, how do you. Are you using AI to quickly speed up that roi? In other words, if you're like hey, go test these, don't spend this much money on these because if it's over a hundred bucks now you're getting back and you're getting this instantaneous feedback. Are you using AI to adjust the A B testing or are you still doing that manually?

[B]

Unfortunately, A B testing is still a lot of manual work. What we do is talking with AI to get different ideas, brainstorming, testing different angles. But AI is a good module for doing data driven decisions, right? So that works great. But to say like hey, test this vertical as example, it's right now not working. Maybe in like a couple of years. I'm pretty sure that we will be on this point. But right now it is more for doing manual work that is really data driven. As I say, like we reach point A in spend. If it's profitable, let it run, if not, cut it. So then AI is working really great.

[A]

So right now we know that AI doesn't mean artificial intelligence, it actually means always incorrect. What tools are you using to offset that? Are you using cloud? Are you using Open Claw? Are you using what are you using? What is your main go to Cloud

[B]

code mainly also open Claw sometimes but more our AI expert is using it for building automations so I'm not so involved in that. I using a lot of cloud code. I use Gamma app to do presentations especially for our projects when we are just talking because a lot of people are actually not really understanding what we are doing to make it more visible, attractive and understandable we use Gamma app for that Then people understanding like oh okay there is a pyramid. I understand this as example so that's. Yeah. One thing. What else we using? I'm just thinking about. I mean there's so many tools there's like four or five things that is going to my. Yeah. Up to my mind for everything that is official we also use an integration to make.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Make.com pretty common as example we were working in a partnership and you're writing on ClickUp also a project management tool. You write a message on ClickUp that is going to me. Yeah. And I don't react within 25 minutes I get a notification on my phone because for us the most important thing is answering in time and I think it's also the biggest showing of respect if you just answer just in time doesn't matter what happens.

[A]

Yeah. Right. Even if you're just like hey I got your message, I'm in a meeting right now, yada yada.

[B]

Exactly. Exactly. Everyone has time for that.

[A]

Right. When do you sit there and say okay this is an AI. This is. This is going to be a person. We're still in that environment. I need personality to mandate for it. What are the things that you're like? I don't see that changing anytime soon.

[B]

I mean a lot of things in the health care industry won't be changed by AI optimized and yeah. That we just have a lot of. Yeah. Less work. That's 400. Sure. But healthcare or any kind of works that the plumber do does like a handyman does. I mean that's pretty obvious Right. What I still don't see maybe I'm a bit too skeptical in this point is that AI just really start to thinking by itself based on your mind. So what I try right now is to clone myself in Claude.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I just work on this since four months and I have sleepless nights with that. Right. And it works barely. Yeah. So what I mean is with Claude is understanding me he can do all the decisions like I would do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But in the moment where emotions has a relevancy in your decision it's still hard to to really just get a correct or even a really solid answer from Claude. Right. Because I mean, it's an AI. There is no feelings inside it. Claude cannot reproduce feelings right now.

[A]

Yeah, right. It also, my problem that I have, my problem I have with cloud is it's still always incorrect. There's so many times where I'm like, hey, go do A, B and C. I'm like, awesome. I've trained it. I've spent months training it and all of a sudden it does X, Y and Z. I'm like, no, no, no. A, B and C. Like, oh, yeah, I'm sorry, you caught me. And. And I'm like, what do you mean? I'm sorry, you caught me. So everyone's like, oh no, it's going to take over. It's. We're going to be Mad Max. It's going to be Terminator 2. We're going to have robots that kill us in next six months. We're not there yet, people. Relax. Yes, it is an extinction level event for employees. It's just not going to happen in the next six months. It's still way far behind. And yes, it's, it's picking up and it's picking up. And I think the best example of this was they said it was going to take another six months to two years for ChatGPT to have a timer. I was like, are you kidding me? Sam Alton said it. I was like, are you kidding me? So we're not there yet. Relax, people. We're not going to be wiped out at this point. Breathe. But for the people who are running the situations that want to know how to do what you do, Sam. And they want to step up. What are the, what are the things that they can start doing? Where can they learn? Where can they pick up some of these details? Or is this just trial and error?

[B]

So first of all, always rely on data. So there is so many data online. I mean, we have big brands like Hotspot which are just releasing so many case studies. Yeah. There are so many big brands in the SaaS area which are just openly talking about their tests and what they're doing. Just read the informations that you just can find with Googling. That's my first, definitely my first recommendation. Yeah. It's so simple, guys. Google.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The second thing is I would just definitely recommend to be active on LinkedIn because there's a lot of people which. Sharing really valuable things on LinkedIn. Especially about SaaS. Especially about E Commerce.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the third thing is just feed this information to your cloud code. Even if we Are not on the Skynet moment right now. It takes a while until we are just reaching Skynet. But feed clothes with all the information that you get create skills and based on that, asking a question. And sees Claude not as a source of knowledge. See. See it as a sparring's partner that has a different opinion and telling you. Yeah. Things from his opinion.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you just see Claude as inspiring partner, the result that you just get or get from it will be much better. Yeah. I just have like really long discussions with Claude.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Even my wife says like, what the fuck are you doing? And you're just talking with an AI and it's like, yeah, yeah. But he's just giving me answers that just really let me think about my decisions. Say like, you are still talking with a machine. Are you insane? Yeah. That's basically my wife.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's it. Yeah. Just using it as a sparing partner. Claude is your friend. Yeah. And Claude will help you to make your life easier. Accept that and use Claude for that.

[A]

You know, Right.

[B]

Doesn't matter.

[A]

Understand that there's a right. And understand you can't make a fish climb a tree. When it comes to clot, there's certain things it just can't do yet. So just exhale, relax, breathe through it. What are some of the. Yeah. There are times where it's funny because there's times where I bark at it and it gives me better results than when I'm nice to it. I'm like, what the heck? Why? Why are you doing better? When I yell at you, I don't understand. Like, please stop making me yell at you. But sooner or later, all that information will come into a robot and it'll come to my house and it'll kill me. I've made peace with this. All the times I've yelled at it. It will come to my house and it'll kill me at some point.

[B]

That's why I'm always polite, always saying things, always asking please, like a real gentleman. Because I don't want to be the person in that position where he says like, hey, you remember like 25 years ago you told me an asshole. I don't want to be this person who does that.

[A]

Oh yeah. I'll be dead. I'll be. I. I will. Yeah. In that situation, I'll wave at you from the line that's going to be turned and put into ovens. Because it's just. We're all gonna. I just. I get. I'm so mean to my AI. It's embarrassing. What Are some of the sizes that if you were going to do it that you know some of the success rate you had. I know you talked about sell things to people that have money and you talked about that. What are some of the victories that you've had with your personal brand and what you guys have offered? Can you tell me about some of the grand slams that you've hit?

[B]

Yeah, I just need to be a bit careful here because I cannot say too much about them because especially when you are just doing cases exit ready or preparing cases for exit. It's still a really old fashioned industry where you just need to hide a lot of information. But we just started to work one and a half years ago on a SaaS business which was doing barely seven digits. So they was just right now crawling to the seven digits and after 12 months we hit the first 45 million in revenue and right now we are just going to, we are just in the direction to passing the 100 million annually on the end of this year. And that's basically like 99% of the work is based on information that you just can find online. Really test with a huge paste and execute. Yeah. With, with the same pace. Yeah. And what working you keep what is not working you, you just pause. That's basically.

[A]

Love it when if someone comes in and they want to track you down and they want to connect with you and they want to learn more about it and they're like hey, how do I do this? What's the best way for people to get a hold of you and to connect with you?

[B]

Actually LinkedIn is the best source of contacting me. I'm Pretty active on LinkedIn post, trying to post everyday value even if it's hard. Yeah, I would say definitely LinkedIn, that's the best.

[A]

What is your LinkedIn way to find me and what's your LinkedIn title?

[B]

It's basically my first and my last name. So it's Sam Attic and my title is 2 billion plus in revenue. Exit ready by design, we build what buyers want. Really simple.

[A]

Love it. You know Sam, I'm really helpful and really grateful that you gave all this information. It was, I think people actually got value. They're going to go and they're going to Google and they're going to start being a whole lot nicer to clawed. They're going to stop selling stuff that people don't want. One of the things I love about you is that you're all about value. You're not here pushing products, you're not trying to sell anything. You're actually like, hey, guys, this is what you need to do to try and help people out. I appreciate it so much. Thank you for coming on.

[B]

Thank you for your time, Charles. And if I was able to help at least one person, this was definitely worth in my point of view.

[A]

Jem doesn't chase trends. He hunts for broken businesses, rebuilds them from the inside, and walks them toward an exit. A kid who started trading at 19 now moves 2 billion in revenue a year. And the lesson underneath all of it is simple. Know your numbers cold. Sell the outcome instead of the thing, and let a strong network put the right deals on your desk. We'll catch you on the next episode.