Proven Podcast: "The Culture Delusion Everyone Regrets" with Jessica Kriegel
Host: Charles Schwartz
Guest: Jessica Kriegel (Chief Strategy Officer at Culture Partners; author of Surrender to Lead)
Date: December 18, 2025
Episode Overview
In this dynamic, no-holds-barred episode, Charles Schwartz sits down with organizational culture expert Jessica Kriegel to demolish workplace myths around generational labels, DEI, “company culture,” and what really drives organizational results. Far from a touchy-feely chat about “being your best self at work,” this conversation fuses blunt insights from entrepreneurship, academic findings, and real business transformation, challenging listeners to rethink everything they know about building high-performing companies.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Scourge of Generational Stereotyping
- Jessica’s research: Generational labels (e.g., "millennial stereotypes") are oversimplified, unfounded, and actually a form of social bias that detract from genuine understanding and effective leadership.
- Quote:
"The brush is the word 'Millennial.' As a classifier, it’s completely fabricated... It’s really ageism hiding in a generational label."
—Jessica Kriegel [03:30] - Insight: Leaders need to resist the temptation to use generational shortcuts and see people’s value and motivation as the product of unique, diverse experiences, not arbitrary “age buckets.”
2. What Is “Culture” Actually?
- Jessica’s definition:
“It’s the way that people think and act to get results.” [07:18]
- Culture is not about perks, parties, or values statements—it’s about the collective beliefs and behaviors that directly impact business outcomes.
3. Culture vs. Profitability: False Dichotomy
- Debate: Is culture more important than profit? Both are deeply connected; focusing solely on actions (mandates, directives) leads to burnout, while focusing at the belief level can deliver 4x profit growth.
- Stanford Study (cited by Jessica):
Companies operating at the “belief” layer grew 42% over three years, compared to 10% for those stuck in the “action trap.”
—[08:25] - Quote:
“How you tap into that belief layer is... what gets you a result. You as a leader cannot really control your people, but you can control the experiences you create for them.”
—Jessica Kriegel [09:51]
4. Myth-Busting DEI and Culture Programs
- Companies often treat culture or DEI as a “program,” hiring for culture fit or running short-term initiatives that don’t shift belief or behavior.
- Jessica: Real change comes from aligning company and individual purpose and designing meaningful experiences—NOT pizza parties or retreats. [11:52–13:00]
5. Purpose Fit, Not Culture Fit in Hiring
- Old Model: “Culture fit” often means “people just like me”—which reduces diversity and learning.
- New Model:
“We focus on purpose fit... What is your why? ... Do you feel like you’re fulfilling your personal mission by helping us with this organization’s mission?”
—Jessica Kriegel [17:33] - Charles’ practical filter: Would you trust this person with your kids’ livelihood if you were out sick? [21:33]
6. Is “Why” More Important Than “Who”?
- Debate: Charles argues who someone is (identity, drive) outweighs knowing their “why” ("Who influences the why. The why by itself is irrelevant." [25:33]).
- Jessica counters: Alignment across purpose, strategy, and culture is what delivers results—often, “yes and” instead of either/or. [28:09]
- Research insight: Adaptive cultures (those able to flex according to context) outperform those clinging solely to “execution” or “people-first” modes.
7. Identity, Transformation & Surrender
- Both speakers share personal stories of shifting identity: Jessica’s spiritual awakening fundamentally changed her purpose and approach to work.
- Quote:
“Surrender is to let go of the illusion that you had control in the first place. You didn’t.”
—Jessica Kriegel [36:26] - Leaders must let go of ego, the need to be right, and learn to adapt—unlocking performance by “surrendering” to collective wisdom and experience.
8. Practical Steps for Building Results-Driven Culture
- Step 1: Ensure radical clarity on goals; most teams aren’t as aligned as they think ([41:50], story of exec disagreement on profit target).
- Step 2: Identify the beliefs required to achieve results.
- Step 3: Create experiences (recognition, storytelling, feedback) that cultivate and reinforce those beliefs.
- Step 4: Practice accountability—not in the “blame game” sense, but by focusing on what people can control ([44:59], Jessica's four questions for accountability).
9. Communication, Repetition & Simplicity
- Leaders must become “Chief Repetition Officers”—boiling down strategy, purpose, and beliefs into a one-slide narrative, starting every meeting with that alignment.
- Quote:
“If you feel like a fool and that’s stopping you from doing something, you shouldn’t be in a management position. That’s just, you’re operating out of ego. You shouldn’t be there.”
—Charles Schwartz [50:35]
10. Single Result vs. Multiple Results
- Best practice: One long-term “big result” (3–5 years) plus three annual “key results.” Clarity on the “one master” (e.g., the customer) is central, but annual execution needs nuanced, measurable supporting goals ([51:16]).
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “It’s really ageism hiding in a generational label.” —Jessica [03:30]
- “Bring your professional self to work. And your authentic self can talk to your husband about that.” —Jessica [07:29]
- “Who influences the why. The why by itself is irrelevant.” —Charles [25:33]
- “Surrender is to let go of the illusion that you had control in the first place.” —Jessica [36:26]
- “Anything that goes wrong in the organization is 1000% your fault. Anything that goes right is 1000% their fault.” —Charles [50:35]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- Stereotyping & Generational Myths: [02:49]–[06:19]
- What is “Culture”? [07:18]
- Action vs. Belief—Stanford Data on Results: [08:25]–[12:51]
- Hiring: Purpose Fit & Filters: [17:33]–[22:02]
- Who vs. Why in Leadership: [23:34]–[28:09]
- Identity and Transformation: [31:49]–[34:03]
- Surrender and Letting Go: [36:26]–[38:45]
- Practical Culture Steps: [40:41]–[44:59]
- Radical Clarity & Repetition: [48:58]–[50:35]
- Single vs. Multiple Key Results: [51:16]–[54:02]
Actionable Takeaways
- Stop generational labeling—it’s not evidence-based leadership and creates bias.
- Align on one big result and three supporting annual results. Ensure clarity at all levels.
- Identify and reinforce the beliefs needed for success through intentional experiences.
- Build accountability by focusing only on what can be controlled, not assigning blame.
- Repeat your purpose, goals, and beliefs constantly—even if it feels silly.
- Abandon “culture fit” for “purpose fit” when hiring.
- Let go of needing control as a leader; foster surrender, humility, and adaptability.
Connect with Jessica Kriegel
- Book: Surrender to Lead (pre-order; January 2026)
- Free workbook: builder.surrendertolead.com
- LinkedIn & other socials: Jessica Kriegel
- Newsletter: “This Week in Culture”
Final Thought
“Intentionally shaping employee beliefs and aligning individual purpose is the true engine for results. Stop implementing short term programs and start designing the experiences that drive discretionary effort and unlock four times profitability.”
—Charles Schwartz [59:19]