Behind the Scenes at #AmFest2025 PLUS Fascinating Christmas Traditions with Bill Federer

Summary

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Podcast Summary

I Don't Have Enough FAITH to Be an ATHEIST

Host: Dr. Frank Turek
Episode: Behind the Scenes at #AmFest2025 PLUS Fascinating Christmas Traditions with Bill Federer
Date: December 23, 2025

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Main Theme

This special Christmas episode blends a behind-the-scenes recap of AmFest 2025—a major annual conservative event hosted by TPUSA in Phoenix—with an in-depth historical exploration of Christmas traditions with noted historian Bill Federer. Dr. Frank Turek reflects on the event’s spiritual and cultural impact, and shares personal stories related to the Christian faith, mission, and responding to adversity. The episode’s second half, a replay of a fan-favorite with Bill Federer, uncovers the surprising origins and Christian connections behind Christmas customs including Santa Claus, stockings, reindeer, holiday dates, and the Christmas tree.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Behind the Scenes at AmFest 2025

• Event Overview:

  • Attended by 30,000, with notable speakers (Tucker Carlson, Ben Shapiro, Vice President Vance, Megan Kelly, Greg Laurie, Ali Beth Stuckey, Riley Gaines, Nicki Minaj, etc.) ([00:03])
  • Openness to differing conservative views; no censorship despite disagreements (Shapiro & Carlson)
  • Erica Kirk, Charlie Kirk’s widow, organized and hosted, displaying resilience despite personal tragedy ([00:03–04:00])

• Panels, Interviews, Initiatives:

  • Frank participated in panel sessions and media interviews (Fox News, Daily Wire, Bryce Crawford’s podcast). ([04:00])
  • Promoting Saturate USA, a non-profit encouraging door-to-door evangelism, and the central church mission to “make disciples.”
  • Notable observation by Dennis Prager: “Even if you’re not a Christian, you should want strong Christian influence in your community.” ([05:27])

• Personal Reflections on Loss and Legacy:

  • Frank recounts the impact events of Charlie Kirk’s murder and how “impact events” change perspectives ([11:15])
  • The Christian hope: “If Christianity is true... people don’t die, they just change location.” ([12:53])
  • Addressing slander and false accusations around the tragedy, directly challenging internet personalities like Candace Owens ([15:26])

• Upcoming Tours and Ministry:

  • Continuing the “Prove Me Wrong” Q&A tour and launching a “Make Heaven Crowded” city tour in 2026 ([09:18–11:00])
  • Emphasizing giving/donations go 100% to ministry and student outreach ([10:13])

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2. Fascinating Christmas Traditions with Bill Federer

([20:38] onward)

Origins of St. Nicholas/Santa Claus

• Historical St. Nicholas:

  • Born c.280 AD, Asia Minor (Turkey); parents died of plague, left Nicholas wealthy ([20:41])
  • Practiced secret gift-giving: tossed coins/dowries into poor families’ homes at night, inspiring the stocking/fireplace tradition
  • “He wanted the glory to go to God, not to him.” — Bill Federer ([24:11])
  • Patron saint of pawnbrokers (origin of pawn shop’s three-ball symbol)
  • Became Bishop of Myra amid Roman persecution; imprisoned by Diocletian
  • Legend: slapped the heretic Arius at the Council of Nicaea—“Jolly old St. Nick had a little temper!” ([35:28])

• Spread and Evolution:

  • Nicholas’s bones moved to Bari, Italy, after Muslim invasions; Pope Urban II dedicated the church ([40:36])
  • Gift-giving customs spread across Europe. St. Francis of Assisi created the first nativity scene to refocus on Christ’s birth ([41:10])

From Saints to Santa

• Martin Luther’s Role:
  • Protestants shifted gift-giving to December 25, emphasizing gifts from the Christ child (“Christkindl,” becomes “Kris Kringle”) ([43:03])
• England and ‘Father Christmas’:
  • After Reformation, English outlawed “St. Nicholas” in favor of “Father Christmas”—adapted from pagan Saturnalia ([43:42])
  • Puritans in Massachusetts fined Christmas celebrators ([46:50])
• Dutch Influence in America:
  • “Santa Claus” = Dutch “Sinterklaas”; customs brought to New Amsterdam (New York) ([48:00])
• American Christmas Traditions:
  • Poem “A Visit from St. Nicholas” (Clement Moore, 1823): “’Twas the night before Christmas…” ([50:15])
  • Political cartoonist Thomas Nast (Harper’s Weekly) depicted Santa at the North Pole during Civil War—a dig at the Confederacy ([52:41])
  • Coca-Cola ads (1930s) solidified the red-suited, rosy-cheeked image

Origins of Other Christmas Traditions

• Christmas Trees:
  • St. Boniface (Germany, 8th c.) chopped down Thor’s oak; replaced with evergreen, symbolizing Christ ([57:44])
  • Martin Luther, inspired by starry sky, set candles in tree branches
• Christmas Date (Dec. 25):
  • Based on calculations from Luke’s Gospel and temple priestly service order, reinforced by Dead Sea Scrolls research ([55:29])
• Twelve Days of Christmas:
  • Created to bridge Greek Orthodox (Epiphany, Jan. 6) and Western (Christmas, Dec. 25) calendars. “Holiday” comes from “holy days.” ([38:07])
• Holy Days and Holidays:
  • “If you say ‘Happy Holidays’, you’re saying ‘Merry Christmas’ by another name.” ([39:24])

On Celebrating Christmas with Pagan Influences

• “We’re celebrating the birth of Christ… He voluntarily submitted himself to be the Lamb and to take the punishment.” — Bill Federer ([61:17])
• “Your intention is to bring people back to the real reason for the season, and that is Christ the Lamb.” — Frank Turek ([62:16])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Frank Turek, on Christian influence:
  “If for no other reason, we ought to… want a strong Christian influence in your community because it tends to civilize people.” ([05:27])
• Bill Federer, on St. Nicholas:
  “He wanted the glory to go to God, not to him. And so this is the origin of the tradition of secret gift giving on the anniversary of Nicholas’s death.” ([24:11])
• On transformation of traditions:
  “Santa Claus is coming from the North Pole… prior to that it was always, you know, Celestial City, New Jerusalem, heaven.” — Bill Federer ([52:41])
• The heart of Christmas:
  “He has to judge every sin… but he’s loving, that he provided the Lamb to take the judgment for the sin. That’s why we approach God through the Lamb. So I’m like, are you good enough to go to heaven? No, you’ll never be good enough. But he was good enough to pay for all your sins.” — Bill Federer ([61:17])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• AmFest 2025 Recap & Reflections: [00:03] – [19:22]
  • Charlie Kirk’s legacy, ministry future, and controversies: [11:15]–[19:04]
• Christmas Traditions with Bill Federer: [20:38] – [62:50]
  • St. Nicholas’s history & traditions: [20:41]–[37:18]
  • Greek/Russian Orthodox differences & twelve days of Christmas: [37:18]–[40:36]
  • Evolution of Christmas in the West: [41:10]–[52:11]
  • Santa Claus in American culture: [52:41]–[55:07]
  • Why December 25?: [55:29]
  • Christmas trees and symbols: [57:41]–[60:49]
  • Should Christians celebrate Christmas despite pagan roots?: [61:17]

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Tone & Takeaways

Frank Turek maintains a tone of encouragement, conviction, and candor—particularly around living the gospel and responding to slander in times of loss. Bill Federer brings immense enthusiasm and scholarly detail, delighting in the “chain of custody” from Christian origins to modern traditions, while always steering the focus back to Christ.

Takeaway:
While many Christmas customs have complex or even secularized histories, they began with and remain rooted in Christianity’s core themes: generosity, redemption, community, and commemorating the birth of Christ. Understanding their origins can deepen—and not diminish—their meaning for believers today.

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Transcript

[Frank Turek]

Ladies and gentlemen, Merry Christmas. We're just two days prior to the big day and I just got back from America Fest out in Phoenix, Arizona. That of course is the amazing event that TP USA runs every year just prior to Christmas. Some of you may have seen some of the clips online, but the lineup of speakers was incredible. There were 30,000 people there. Of course, Erica Kirk was there and I'll tell you a little bit about had a couple conversations with Erica. She's, she's doing well, but she still needs our prayers. Of course, Vice President Vance was there. Ben Shapiro, Michael Knowles, Tucker Carlson and Tucker Carlson and Ben Shapiro had a little bit of a disagreement, you know of. But that's okay. As conservatives, we can air out our disagreements and hopefully come to the right conclusion. One thing that TPUSA doesn't tend to do is censor people. They wanted all these people to show up because Charlie invited every one of them. So Erica was not going to disinvite anyone. And so both Ben Shapiro and Tucker Carlson were there even though they disagree.

[Bryce Crawford]

On quite a bit.

[Frank Turek]

The great Ali, Beth Stuckey was there. It was a privilege being with Ali. In fact, my wife and I had dinner with Ali and her husband after the event there on Saturday night. They're just great people, a great couple. Bryce Crawford, you know, Bryce Crawford is a young 22 year old YouTuber who.

[Bryce Crawford]

Does a lot of on the street evangelism. I was able to do his podcast. He spoke the same night I did as well. We're going to have him on the show early next year. You'll enjoy him. Graham Allen, a Christian influencer was there. The great Greg. Laurie got to see Greg again. He was backstage. He spoke the same night I did. Megan Kelly was there. Jesse Waters from Fox News, Greg Gutfield, Steve Dace, you may know Steve is with Blaze along with Glenn Beck.

[Frank Turek]

Dr. James or you guys know James or is I'm going to have him.

[Bryce Crawford]

On the show at some point. He teaches at Cambridge. He was a mentor to Charlie as well. And he is trying to lead a reform movement in the UK to rescue them from too much immigration. Because if immigration Trends continue, the UK will probably have Sharia law at some point. So Dr. James Orr is also a Christian and an apologist. He came to Faith through some apologetics, had a conversation with him at the hotel. Very nice gentleman. Riley Gaines was there. Lucas Miles, of course, Mikey McCoy, Doug Wilson, you guys know Doug Wilson from Idaho and he's a post millennialist. So there are all sorts different Christians who were there. Tulsi Gabbard was there, Don Jr. Was there. And Nicki Minaj, she was a surprise guest. Now look, I'm 64 years old. I don't know a lot about Nicki Minaj. Apparently a rapper probably doesn't have the, at least in her past that the Christian lyrics. But she came out claiming she was a Christian and also expressed her support for the current administration, which is something that takes a little bit courage to do. In fact, a week or two ago she was talking about the genocide of Christians, the jihad that's taking place against Christians in Nigeria. So thankfully there are celebrities that will speak out against that. So she did and Erica interviewed her. You can see all this on the TPUSA YouTube channel if you want to see any of this. I was able to do several interviews. We'll put the links that we have to those interviews. I was on Fox News twice, once with Fox Nation with Rachel Duffy and then on Fox news with Kayleigh McEnany, who's a great Christian lady as well. I was on the Daily Wire, that's Ben Shapiro's group. I was interviewed by Mary Margaret and Tim there. I was also on Bryce's show, as I mentioned, and several other interviews. Also when I was there, I did a main session with a gentleman who started Saturate usa.

[Frank Turek]

Saturate USA is a nonprofit that is trying to recruit churches to evangelize door to door. Not necessarily meaning you have to talk to people, but just put door hangers to get people to know the gospel and come to a local church. You may want to check into Saturate USA because Lucas Miles and myself and the gentleman that is the CEO of it did a main session on the main stage about it. And it's a great idea to try and get more people involved in local churches, to get more people to become Christians and to disciple them. And that's really important. We want to make disciples, ladies and gentlemen. That's the purpose of the church, by the way. In fact, in that 20 minute session that we had, I brought up an observation that the great Dennis Prager made many years ago. Dennis, not a Christian, Jewish man, conservative man, as you know, a mentor to Charlie as well. Please pray for Dennis.

[Michael]

He.

[Frank Turek]

He had an awful accident. He's paralyzed right now. He's still with us, but it's difficult. Anyway, Dennis many years ago pointed this out. He asked this hypothetical question of people who are against Christianity. He said this. He said, suppose that you are in the worst part of a major city at midnight when your car breaks down, your cell Phone is dead. You get out of the car and as you get out of the car to see what's wrong with your car, you see 10 men walking out of an alley and they suddenly start walking toward you. Would you or would you not be relieved to know that those men had just come out of a Bible study? Of course you would be relieved to know that. What's Prager's point? Even if you're not a Christian, you should want a very strong Christian influence in your community. And I made the point that if the alleged killer of Charlie Kirk, Tyler Robinson, had been a Christian and been in a Bible study, Charlie Kirk would be alive today. Yeah, Somebody who's following Jesus is not going to pick up a rifle and shoot my friend in the neck. So if for no other reason, we ought to. If you're not a Christian, you ought to want a strong Christian influence in your community is because it tends to civilize people. So check out Saturate usa. I also did an hour long Q and A called Prove Me Wrong. They brought a truck into the Phoenix.

[Bryce Crawford]

Convention center and they had the truck set up and the big podium set up, kind of a big stage. And then people would gather around and they would just ask questions, just like.

[Frank Turek]

It was a college event.

[Bryce Crawford]

There had to be at least a thousand people standing around asking questions. We, I probably took, I don't know.

[Frank Turek]

15 or so questions, 10 to 15.

[Bryce Crawford]

Questions in the hour. And most of them were from Christians, but there was one from a Calvinist.

[Michael]

In the very beginning. He was predestined to ask me a question about it. And I was asking him, are you suggesting that God pulled the trigger? And he tried to dance around that a little bit. Hopefully they'll put that, that interaction up on YouTube at some point. I don't have the file for that.

[Frank Turek]

And then there were other questions related.

[Michael]

To Catholicism and questions related to venerations.

[Frank Turek]

Of saints, questions that came from all different angles.

[Michael]

So hopefully that'll be posted at some point. I don't think it's up right now.

[Frank Turek]

Also, I didn't do. I wasn't the only one that did prove me wrong.

[Michael]

Erica did it Prove Me Wrong session.

[Frank Turek]

As well, as well as Ali Beth Stuckey and Michael Knowles. And that's going to continue. By the way, the Prove Me Wrong tour to college campuses is going to continue from TP usa. I'll probably be involved in some of that, although we already have nearly 15 schools set up for the this coming spring semester. And by the way, that's why I want to remind You. We do have a $300,000 matching gift. As we come toward the end of the year. That $300,000 matching gift will help us pay for the security that we need moving into 2026. As we said, our costs have tripled from $5,000 a campus to about $15,000 a campus, largely due to security. So if you give a dollar, it's going to be doubled to $2. If you give 100, it's going to be 200. If you give 10,000, it's going to.

[Michael]

Be 20,000, all the way up to 300. So some donors have gotten together and.

[Frank Turek]

Put together that matching gift. So as you make your year end donations, please consider crossexamined.org we're going full steam ahead. Jesus wants us to do this. Of course, Charlie would want us to do it as well. So in honor of him, we're going to continue this, this tour and try and bring as many people into the.

[Michael]

Kingdom as possible and to make disciples of all nations. We're going to try and make heaven.

[Frank Turek]

Crowded with your help. Because, you know, we don't charge students. Everything, everything's funded by the donor, by you.

[Michael]

So you're giving through us to reach.

[Frank Turek]

These kids on these very hostile campuses. And by the way, 100% of your donations go to ministry, 0% to buildings. We don't have any buildings. You're not paying for the electric bill. You're not paying for rent. You're not paying for some desk somewhere.

[Michael]

You're paying for us to go out and do ministry. So thank you for that.

[Frank Turek]

I also want to mention that TPUSA is going to continue the college tour. As I mentioned, they also announced a Make Heaven Crowded tour.

[Host/Interviewer]

They're going to be going to cities.

[Frank Turek]

Around the country in 2026.

[Host/Interviewer]

They're going to bring speakers like me.

[Frank Turek]

And others, and they're going to bring bands, worship bands. So it's going to be quite an event. You need to look out for that as well. You also may want to sign up to be part of a TPUSA chapter. They're all over the place now. Let's keep this momentum going that the tragic death of Charlie has sprung upon us. There's always a ripple effect in Charlie's situation. It's been a tsunami and we have to keep moving forward and seize this moment now while hearts are tender. I also had a keynote there at tpusa. It was Saturday night, Faith Night, along.

[Michael]

With Ali Bestucky and Greg Laurie and.

[Frank Turek]

Lucas Miles and Bryce Crawford and Pastor John Amachuku.

[Michael]

And there was one other presentation that night, Greg Laurie, did I mention.

[Frank Turek]

And my keynote will put in the show notes as well.

[Michael]

But I told something I haven't really told anybody yet. It's something related to what happened that day when Charlie was murdered. I was relating to people the fact that the folks that saw the resurrection witnessed an impact event. And I asked them if they remember the day that Charlie was murdered. And of course, everybody does. They remember where they were and what they were doing when they heard that Charlie had been murdered. It's what we call an impact event. It's a psychological event that is emblazoned on your heart, mind and soul. And in some cases events like this, not only can you remember forever, but it can change your perspective. And I'll never forget that once we did get them to the emergency room, they did get a pulse, as we had mentioned. And the doctor later told us, despite the fact that Charlie was killed instantly, that they did get a pulse because he was healthy and young and you can do that with a healthy young body. But he was killed instantly and didn't.

[Frank Turek]

Feel a thing after they got him.

[Michael]

Into the emergency room and then into the or had to be, I don't know, 20, 30 minutes later, the doctor came out and he came into the hallway where I was and Mikey was standing right next to me. And with the subtlety of a brick, all he said was, he's dead. He didn't say, I'm sorry. He didn't say, we tried everything. He just came out and said, he's dead. I can't, can't get that voice out of my mind. But I said in the keynote, yeah, he's dead. But if Christianity is true, and it is, people don't die. They just can't change location. Charlie went from this life to the next life, and we can join him there at some point as well. I also pointed out, as you'll see, that this isn't just what the Bible talks about, the New Testament talks about, but there's actually near death experiences and death visions that confirm that we're not just a body, we're also a soul, that there's such a thing as remote viewing, that souls do leave bodies when somebody has clinically died.

[Bill Federer]

And.

[Michael]

Charlie may have even seen us tending to him. He may have seen Erica collapse in the parking lot when she got the call from Mikey. Because you're not just a body, you're also a soul. I also in the keynote pointed out that Jesus and the other New Testament writers, Jesus, not a writer but you get the idea. Jesus and the New Testament writers call Satan a murderer, liar, slanderer and accuser. And I want to point out over the past three and a half months after the murder, what we've seen are lies, slander, and accusations without evidence. Yeah, I'm talking to you, Candace Owens, and others. Stop lying. Stop slandering, stop accusing.

[Frank Turek]

Oh, it's not lies. We're just asking questions.

[Michael]

Yeah, you're asking the complex question, like, when did you stop beating your wife? You're implying something by the question. You're accusing people without evidence. You're slandering people. That's not biblical. It's not moral. You can ask questions all you want, but don't intimate that people are guilty without evidence. I don't know how many different ways I can say this, but I need just need to reiterate it. If you don't see this as spiritual warfare, I don't know what else I can do to convince you. It's exactly what the Bible says, that Satan is a murderer, liar, slanderer and accuser. And we have a grieving widow like Erica Kirk being implicated somehow through lies, slander and accusations in the murder of her own husband and her organization as well. It's crazy. The people of TPUSA are some of the finest people I've ever met. They're certainly the most professional. You would not believe how amazing that event at America Fest was in terms of organization, in terms of punctuality, in terms of just beauty, how beautiful the set was, how professional every was backstage.

[Frank Turek]

And they did all this just like.

[Michael]

They did that amazing memorial while in mourning. These people are devoted. That's why TPUSA is going to continue, because Charlie handpicked a lot of these people. And he said that if anything ever happens to me, Erica can take over. A lot of people think, Eric, oh.

[Frank Turek]

She'S just a housewife.

[Michael]

No, just a housewife. That's the hardest job in the world.

[Frank Turek]

But she was also a successful business.

[Michael]

Owner long before she met Charlie. And she has wisdom and grace and class just like Charlie did. So, personally, I'm behind her a thousand percent, and I think you should be, too, and reject all the slander and the accusations going on. Enough said about that. I've spoken about it in other videos. And look, I pray for Candace Owens. I think she has a great talent for many things. But what she's doing now, even after Erica told her to stop, there's a lie right there.

[Frank Turek]

Erica told me. If Erica told me to stop, I'd Stop.

[Michael]

She hasn't. Erica. Erica flew all the way to Nashville to meet her. A grieving widow has to go.

[Bryce Crawford]

She can't.

[Michael]

Oh, Candace can't come to see Erica. A grieving widow has to fly all the way across the country to see Candace to extend an olive branch. And seems like she's rejected that. Hopefully I'm wrong, but that's what it seems like. Friends, I don't mean to be all negative here. It is Christmas, but I did want to give you a update from America Fest. It's full speed ahead in 2026, and it's full speed ahead with their ministry.

[Frank Turek]

And it's full speed ahead with ours.

[Michael]

And we're going to do whatever we can to make Heaven crowded, whatever we can to encourage and engage people in some of the hostile real estate in the country. And that is the college campus.

[Frank Turek]

But right now, what we're going to.

[Michael]

Do is get real Christmassy.

[Frank Turek]

One of our favorite podcasts of all time.

[Michael]

And when I say are, I mean you the listener.

[Frank Turek]

You guys have said the podcast we're about to play right now is one.

[Michael]

Of the best of all times. And it's with the great Bill Federer.

[Frank Turek]

And what we're going to do is answer some questions here. How did we go from the birth of Jesus to Santa, to stockings, to reindeer to the North Pole to Christmas trees and Kris Kringle? Does any of that come from Christianity or real world historical events? And actually, the surprising answer is yes. Well, much of it anyway. The great Bill Federer is going to show us where these traditions came from and how they relate to Christianity. This show is very fascinating. It's the story of how so many Christmas traditions originated and have been passed down to us this day. This is an evergreen show. We recorded it a few years ago, but people loved it so much, we like to play it at Christmas time. Pull up the kids to listen to this. You're going to be fascinated by where all these traditions came from and what they mean. So here we go.

[Michael]

The great Bill Federer.

[Bill Federer]

Well, St. Nicholas is the most popular Greek Orthodox saint. He is to the Greeks what St Patrick is to the Irish. And he lived during Roman times. So for the first three centuries of Christianity, there are 10 major persecutions. Christians are thrown to the lions. And Nicholas is born around 280 A.D. in a town called Patara, Asia Minor. Today, that's Turkey. And his parents die when a plague swept through town and leaves him a lot of money. And a movement was going through Christianity at the time called Pietism. Beginning of the monasticism Movement. And it was this idea that if you were really sincere about being a Christian, you should give away all your money and join a monastery. And so Nicholas decides he's going to give away all the money he inherited from his parents. And so he wants to help the poor, but he doesn't want to get the credit for it. So he sneaks into town at nighttime and throws the money in the window of poor people. Supposedly it lands in a shoe or a stocking that's drying by the fireplace. And one of the stories that was very popular, you see it on a lot of Middle Ages churches and stained glass windows and Greek Orthodox churches, mosaics. And you'll see Nicholas on his tippy toes. You know, he's a saint with a halo around his head. And he's reaching up and he's throwing some money in the window. And. And inside is a man with three daughters. And so the story is that this man was a merchant, and he had gone bankrupt. And back then, the creditors would not only take your house and lands, they would take your children. This. This merchant had three beautiful daughters and knew if they were taken, it would be an unfortunate life of trafficking and so forth. So he had an idea. He thought if he could hurry up and marry the daughters off, the creditors couldn't take him. Unfortunately, he did not have money for a dowry which was needed in that area of the world for a legally recognized wedding. Nicholas hears the problem late one night, throws some money in the window, provides the dower. The oldest daughter gets married, big buzz, talk to the town, throws some money in for a second daughter. By the third time, the dad is expecting it. Nicholas throws the money in, the dad runs outside and catches him. And Nicholas makes the father promise not to tell where the money came from. Why? Because he wanted the glory to go to God and not to him. And so this is the origin of the tradition of secret gift giving on the anniversary of Nicholas's death. Stockings by the fireplace, midnight visits. And once he does give away all his money, he does decide to join a monastery. It's the Monastery of Zion. Now, all this history is Greek Orthodox history, and believe me, they've got lots and lots of stuff. There's more Greek Orthodox churches named after Saint Nicholas than anybody else. And so he was going to the Holy Land, and it's the Monastery of Zion.

[Host/Interviewer]

And.

[Bill Federer]

And by the way, those three bags of gold he throws in the window to help out that family, he ends up being considered the patron saint of pawn brokers. What?

[Host/Interviewer]

Right.

[Bill Federer]

So pawn brokers hang three Gold balls outside of their shop to represent the three bags of gold that Nicholas throws in. And they say, well, we help families out in their time of financial need. It's like, yeah, that's a little bit of a stretch, but whatever.

[Host/Interviewer]

Now, Bill, at. At the time, you're talking early 3000 AD, right? He's living. Where is he living? St. Nicholas?

[Bill Federer]

Well, it's Patara, Asia Minor today. That's Turkey.

[Host/Interviewer]

Turkey. Okay, okay. Patara.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Host/Interviewer]

All right.

[Bill Federer]

And so he goes over to the Holy Land, is going to join this monastery of Zion. But before he does, the Lord tells him not to hide his light under a bushel. So he decides to go back to Asia Minor, but not before visiting the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem. And so the picture of Santa Claus kneeling at the baby Jesus crib, there's actually a little historical precedent for that. He visits. And so Mark Twain visits the Holy land in the 1860s and writes a book about it called Innocence Abroad. And he says, this spot where the first Merry Christmas was uttered in all the world, and from whence the friend of my childhood, Santa Claus, departed on his first journey to gladden, and continue to gladden them roaring firesides on wintery mornings and many a distant land forever and forever. So anyway, so he leaves, goes back to Asia Minor today, that's Turkey. Gets off at a busy city called Myra. Unbeknownst to him, the bishop of Myra had died. And the church leaders could not decide who the next bishop's going to be. And one of them has a dream that the first person to church the next day would be named Nicholas, and he was to be their next bishop. Well, Nicholas was not too excited about this. He goes there and they break the news to him. He was not too excited because the Roman emperor Diocletian was arresting bishops and killing them. So it was sort of like, you be the bishop. No, no, no, I insist, you first. No, no, no, you be the bishop.

[Frank Turek]

That's right.

[Bill Federer]

And so anyway, he does agree to be the bishop. He is arrested, he's put in prison, he's awaiting death. And suddenly Diocletian, the emperor that's trying to exterminate Christianity, I mean, this guy was terrible. He lost some battles with Persia. Asked his generals why, they said, well, you've neglected the Roman gods. So he says, okay, military worship the Roman gods. Well, by this time, there were some Christians, a lot of Christians in the military. They're all forced out. Then he decides to take the military and force the entire Roman Empire to returning to worshiping The Roman gods. And they go province by province, tearing down churches, burning scriptures, cutting out tongues. Anyway, so Nicholas is in jail, awaiting death. Diocletian is struck with an intestinal disease so painful he abdicates the throne, steps down. May 1, 305 AD this is unheard of, an emperor stepping down. And you have to appreciate the poetic humor. Emperors had been declaring themselves a God, sprinkling gold dust in their hair and demanding that their image be worshiped. So this was sort of like a God resigning. I just think that's sort of funny. But the next emperor, Galerius, he continues the persecution of Christians. He is struck with an intestinal disease. Must have been something in the water. He dies in 311 adults. And now it's confusion in the Roman Empire and four generals decide to fight it out as to who's going to be the next emperor. Two are quickly defeated. It comes down to Constantine and Maxentius. Constantine is a general stationed in York, Britain. And when his men get the news, they surround him and yell, hail, Caesar, we're with you. And so he marches toward Rome. And it's the Battle of the Milvian Bridge. October 28, 312 A.D. and the story is that Constantine saw the sign of Christ in the sky, puts it on all of his shields and symbols and winds. And what's the sign of Christ that he saw? It was the first two Greek letters for the name Christ. So Christ is a Greek name and the Greeks spell it. And phonetically the letter that makes the cuh sound the Greeks write is a big X, it's called chi. And the R sounding letter is called rho, and it's written as a big P. So you see the chi, rho, these X and P on all the early Roman 4th century art. And then Constantine legalizes Christianity. 3, 13. But I hear the music and I'll come back with a story.

[Host/Interviewer]

Hold your thought, Bill. We're going to come right back. We're talking to the great Bill Federer. We're talking about where do Christmas traditions come from? You're going to be more surprised right after the break. I'm Frank Turek. Don't go away. We're back at two. Where do Christian traditions come from? Christmas, Christians traditions, or the traditions that we celebrate now here in the United States? Where do all these come from? And our friend Bill Federer is giving us a great overview of the history of St. Nicholas and some of these Christian, or I should say, Christmas traditions. And before we go back to Bill, he mentioned that gift giving really was something done by St. Nicholas. And at this time of year, in addition to giving gifts to your loved ones, if in any way we have benefited you and you feel led to give to us, we are a 501c3 organization. Crossexamine.org 100% of your donations goes to ministry, 0% to buildings. I want to mention we have a $20,000 matching grant given to us by a generous donor. Any dollar you give up to $20,000 will be matched. So if you give $100, it'll be matched to 200. You give $1,000 matched to 2,000. You get the idea. All the donations are tax [e-mail] that's cross examined with a D on the end of it.org and as you know, we spend most of our time in high schools and colleges to try and show people, young people, why Christianity is true.

[Frank Turek]

And particularly when we go to high.

[Host/Interviewer]

Schools and colleges, we don't charge students a dime to be there. And the only way we can go is if you provide the necessary funds for us to go. So if you think that's a worthwhile mission, and I hope you do, given the fact that three out of four young people who are brought up in the church walk away from the church once they go to college, then, please, as you give your year end donations, consider crossexamined.org all right, let me go back to our guest doctor. Well, you're not a doctor, but you should be Bill Federer, who has an amazing breadth of knowledge when it comes to historical events. And Bill, just before the break, we got up to Constantine, who won the battle and became the Holy Roman Emperor. Why don't we just pick it up right there, start right there and keep going on these Christmas traditions.

[Bill Federer]

Right. Well, now he was just plain Emperor. The holy didn't happen till years later. But nevertheless, he sees the sign of Christ in the sky. It's called the XP chi rho. And over the centuries, it got shortened just to the chi or the X. And it was called a Christ cross or Chris cross. And that's where you get the Xmas X. It's not the X crossing out Christ, it's X chi, the Greek letter that stands for Christ. And that came down as a written oath. So you'd sign a document and swear before Christ that it's true. You'd sign it the Christ cross. Sign at the X or put your X here or I swear, cross my heart. What's that? That's the chi. And then they would kiss the document after they signed it to show sincerity. And that's come down to us as the X's and the O's on the bottom of a valentine. Right? The X, you're sworn before Christ to keep your pledge. And the O's you're kissing it to show sincerity. Anyway, that's the Cairo over the. At this time, Nicholas is let out of jail. And now that Constantine made it. Okay, so this is the first time in history that the government is not persecuting Christians.

[Host/Interviewer]

My friends. We got to stop right here for a second, Bill, because I don't think many people realize that Christianity spread in spite of the sword being used on it. I mean, people think that Christianity spread through use of the sword as if the Crusades began right from the very beginning. People who don't have a good clear view of history. The Crusades don't begin until about 1095 A.D. friends. It wasn't until what, 311 A.D. or 312 A.D. bill, that Christianity basically got a reprieve from the persecutions.

[Bill Federer]

Right?

[Frank Turek]

Right.

[Bill Federer]

312 AD is when the battle of the Milvian Bridge with Constantine. And then he officially issues the Edict of Milan in 313 AD and now Nicholas is out of prison. He preaches publicly against paganism. What's that? Nearby is the temple to Diana at Ephesus, one of the seven wonders of the ancient world. This thing is twice as big as the Parthenon in Athens. It has 127 huge pillars and temple prostitutes. It was the Las Vegas and the Mediterranean. And the apostle Paul preached against Diana worship in Acts chapter 19. And so Nicholas preaches against it and the people tear the temple to Diana down. So he would have been a fire and brimstone preacher. Today during this time they end the Olympics. Right. I went to school in Rome. We went to Olympus and saw where they ran them. And it was basically just a. A foot raised, a javelin, discus throw and some wrestling. But they did it without clothes on. I won't get into it all, but it was pretty pagan. And so they outlawed the Olympics. And then Nicholas preaches against exposure of unwanted infants. What's that? The Roman tradition was the mother would bear the child, lay it at the father's feet. If he picked it up and liked it, thought they could afford it, they'd keep it. If not, she had to put it in a basket and set it outside the house and let it die. And so a lot of the Christians would hear these babies crying and rescue them. This is where you get those stories of, you know, mother, were Putting the baby in a basket on the doorstep of some old couple and knocking the door and then running away. And the old couple comes out and sees his baby in a basket and raises them up. And so this called exposure of unwanted infants. And so the Christians and Nicholas preached against this. So he would have been a pro life preacher. I mean, it was their version of abortion, the Romans. And so Nicholas would have been a pro life preacher today. And then there's the Arian heresy. What's going on?

[Frank Turek]

Hang on one sec.

[Host/Interviewer]

Hang on one sec, Bill. I just want to bring people up to date because as you know, radio is a. Is a stream, not a pond. Some people are coming in and out. You're listening to Cross examiner with Frank Turk, and my guest is Bill Federer. His website is americanminute.com Go there. Not only can you read just about everything we're talking about here, but Bill has an entry for almost every day of the year up on his website. And so many great historical nuggets there that you can learn from Bill Federer. So check that out. Right now we're talking about the. Where did the Christmas holiday traditions come from? And when Bill's referring to Nicholas, he's talking about St. Nicholas, who was a real person who lived in the early 300s, late 200s, early 300s A.D. and he actually had something to do with the Nicene Creed, believe it or not. Pick it up right there, Bill.

[Bill Federer]

Right. So the same way you got Patrick in Ireland conferring the Druids, and he stood up for the Trinity, well, you have Nicholas. And so a guy named Arius says that Jesus is a little less than God. He's a created being. And Arius writes his catchy song. And the Visigoths were a people group that immigrated into Rome. They converted en masse to Arianism. And now it's splitting the church. And since Constantine made Christianity the de facto religion of the state, now it's splitting the state and the Roman Empire. So Constantine is like, what's up? So he orders all the bishops to come to Nicaea and settle it. This is the first time in history that all the Christian leaders come together at one place. Constantine foots the bill. There's about 500 bishops and altogether about 1500 with their staff. And they settle it. They write the Nicene Crete. And the story is that Nicholas was so upset at Arius for starting this heresy that Nicholas slapped Arius across the face. So jolly old St. Nick had a little temper. He better watch out him. He's coming it down.

[Frank Turek]

Is that where that comes from.

[Bill Federer]

Okay, so not only did he confront heretics, he confronted corrupt politicians. So there was a Roman governor doing corrupt stuff, and he was going to blame some innocent soldiers and have them be executed to cover up his corruption. Nicholas hears about it, rushes down to the execution square, breaks through the crowd, grabs the sword out of the executioner's hand, throws it down, and then by the power of the Holy Spirit, tells every corrupt thing that the governor was doing. The governor realizes nobody could know all this except God, and gets on his knees and begs Nicholas to pray for him. And so there's lots of stories the Greeks have, and some have a miraculous aspect. One is there was a storm, and Myra being a port city, the sailors, fishermen, couldn't get back. They get Nicholas to pray, the sea becomes calm, they can come back. So he's considered the, quote, unquote, patron saint of sailors. And so through the Middle Ages, artwork on churches, you'll see storms and then there'll be in the clouds, there'll be Nicholas, or he'll have a statue holding a boat. And then there was a famine in the area. Nicholas supposedly went down, talked some sailors into unloading some of their grain that's going from North Africa to Rome to unload it to feed his people, promising God would bless them for doing it on their return trip. They say the grain that was left had multiplied, sort of like Elijah and the little widow's meal barrel and the Book of Kings. He dies. December 6, 343 A.D. the Roman emperor Justinian builds a big church and names it after Nicholas. And then it gets a plug with Vladimir, the emperor of Russia. 988 A.D. he converts to Eastern Orthodox Christianity and adopts Nicholas as the patron saint of Russia. So there are more St. Nicholas, Russian Orthodox churches than any other name for a Russian Orthodox church. That's the most popular. St. Nicholas, Russian Orthodox Church.

[Host/Interviewer]

Can we pause here for just a second? I just want to ask you kind of a broader theological question now, because we in the west, many of us don't have a decent handle on what, say, Greek Orthodox or Russian Orthodox people believe that's different from, say, the Church in the west, whether it's the Roman Catholic Church or Protestant churches, what's unique, say, about a Greek Orthodox Church just generally in terms of their theological beliefs?

[Bill Federer]

Well, when Diocletian split the Roman Empire into the east and the west, with Rome as the capital of the West, Constantinople. And so the. What? I mean, I guess Constantine originally did it, but Diocletian furthered it. The Greeks speak Greek. The West.

[Host/Interviewer]

Diocletian was before Constantine, though, Right?

[Bill Federer]

But as far as the church goes, 1054 A.D. there's a divorce. The Greeks say in the Nicene Creed that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, and the Catholic west says the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. And the Muslims could care less. They want to kill them all. But there's other differences. The Greek Orthodox priests can marry and the Catholics, you know, don't. But the one is the Greek Orthodox think that epiphany. January 6th is the holiest day of the year. And the Catholic west thought that December 25th, Christmas is the holiest day of the year. And so at the consulate tours in 567 AD, they tried to patch up the east and the west by making all 12 days between December 25th and January 6th the 12 days of Christmas. Oh, so the 12 days of Christmas is not the 12 days leading up to Christmas. It's the 12 days between December 25th, January 6th. And it was a patch, a patch of effort to try to get the east and west to, say, still stay hooked together. And so they call them holy days. When over the years, holy days got pronounced holiday. Now, it's very funny when they say, well, we don't want to say Merry Christmas, just say Happy Holidays.

[Host/Interviewer]

Well, that's the same thing.

[Bill Federer]

What are the holy days other than the 12 days of Christmas? Okay, now.

[Frank Turek]

Now, how much.

[Host/Interviewer]

How much of a difference is there between the Greek Orthodox Church and the Russian Orthodox Church? Theologically.

[Bill Federer]

My understanding is very little. It's mostly just the hierarchy, with each of them having their main archbishop, which would be the equivalent of a pope. They just have a different hierarchy, but theologically it's pretty similar. Okay, but now it's important to the east and the West. So the east is being invaded by Islam. And Turkey used to be the Byzantine Christian Empire. And all seven churches mentioned in the Book of Revelation are wiped out. All the letters to Ephesus, the city of Ephesus and Colossae, Galatia, Philippi, Corinth, all those cities are wiped out by the Muslim Turks who are invading. And so the Christians don't want the grave of St. Nicholas destroyed, because as they would come in, they would destroy the graves and the churches and artwork. The Muslims, Muhammad said, leave no high grave standing nor a work of art without obliterating it. And so in 1087, they moved the bone to Nicholas over to Italy. A little town called Bari B A R I. They built a church, and Pope Urban II dedicates The church.

[Host/Interviewer]

All right, hold the thought, Bill. We're going to come right back. Hold the thought.

[Bill Federer]

We're going to pop in the second. That calls for the First Crusade.

[Host/Interviewer]

We're talking of Bill Federer, who, as you can see, just wonderfully strings together history so you can see where some of these Christmas holiday traditions come from. And his website is americanminute.com, our website, crossexamine.org we got a lot more with Bill Federer right after the break. I'm Frank Turek. Don't touch that dial.

[Frank Turek]

Now let's go back to the great Bill Federer. Go ahead, Bill.

[Bill Federer]

So the Muslims are invading Greece. They moved the most popular Greek saint over to Italy. Pope Urban II builds a church, names it after Nicolo de Bari. And we know Pope Urban because he went to the Council of Claremont, 1095 A.D. and begs the kings of Europe to send help to these Greeks that are being killed by this Islamic invasion. And they send help. It's called the First Crusade. So the same pope that welcomes Nicholas traditions to Western Europe is the one that calls for the First Crusade. So in a backward sense, we may not have had a St. Nicholas in Western civilization if it had not been for jihad in the east, but now the traditions of gift giving really catch on, and the Italians really love it. So much so that sort of in protest, St. Francis of Assisi in 1223 AD comes up with the first nativity scene, the creche scene, the Jesus, Mary, Joseph, donkeys in the manger, saying, look, we're getting too materialistic. We need to get back to the real reason for the season. Jesus was born in the manger, the son of God, Emmanuel, God with us. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. So some of these struggles that you talked about at the beginning of the program, this was faced in the 1200s. And then the Reformation starts. 1517, Martin Luther, by this time, there is a saints day for every day of the year, churches are filled full of statues. Martin Luther considers this a distraction. So he ends the saints days in Protestant countries, including the popular St. Nicholas Day. Well, the Germans like the gift giving. So Martin Luther moves all the gift giving to December 25th and says, all gifts come from the Christ child. And the German pronunciation of Christ child is Chris Kendall. Chris meaning Christ Kindle, like Kinder care, Kindergarten means child. So Kris Kindle ends up being pronounced Kris Kringle. So Kris Kringle is really Chris Kindle, which means Christ child.

[Frank Turek]

Anyway, this is fascinating stuff, Bill.

[Host/Interviewer]

By the way, you can get an email from Bill, every day. Just go to americanminute.com and sign up for the email. You can get one email from us a week at crossexamine.org, click on subscribe. But, Bill, this is such fascinating stuff. I want to pause on just a couple of things that you had mentioned there. You'd mentioned the first Crusade was ordered or at least asked for by Pope Urban II in 1095 A.D. and a lot of people think the Crusades, at least as initially conceived, were kind of these offensive ways of trying to convert people by the sword. Why is that not the case?

[Bill Federer]

Well, the Muslims took over Egypt and the Coptic Christians begged the west for help. And they were going to send help until the emperor got his head broken and somebody broke a soap dish over his head in a bath. But for centuries, the different Christians in these countries where Christianity originated were crying out for help. And the west would sit on their hands and sort of like today, under our previous president, there was a genocide of millions of Christians in the Middle East. And even John Kerry had to admit it was a genocide. And what did we in the west do? Nothing. Now it finds out that we were actually giving guns to the ones doing the killing. And so this is a typical thing where the Christians are begging for help and the west isn't. Finally, Pope Urban said, enough. We need to send help to these Greek Christians. And. And now it's back to the Nicholas story. It's important to understand, you know the Catholic saying, St. Peter's at the gates of heaven. Well, the Greeks do a saying, and it's based on the book of Revelation, that Jesus will return at the end of the world to judge the living and the dead riding a white horse. And the saints will come back with him riding white horses. And St. Nicholas is a saint, after all, so he will be one of those riding a white horse. But he's so special to the Greeks, they have him coming back once a year for a little mini Judgment Day, a little checkup on the kids, make sure they're on the right track, see who's naughty, see who's nice. And saints come from where? Heaven, the Celestial City, New Jerusalem. It turns into the North Pole. And in Norway, they didn't have horses, they got them riding a reindeer. And the Lamb's Book of Life and Book of Works turned into the Book of the Naughty and the Nice, and the angels turn into the elves. And so you can see what started as a biblical idea is embellished with a lot of the additions there. So we look at England. So Martin Luther brings the Reformation to Germany, and Henry VIII brings the Reformation to England, but not because he had a spiritual experience. He just wants another wife. Pope won't recognize his divorce. He makes himself his own Pope. And he brings back an old Roman holiday because Britain used to be a Roman colony, and the holiday is Saturnalia, and it's feasting and plenty and merriment. And if you've ever seen the Christmas Carol with Charles Dickens, there's the spirit of Christmas present. And he's this big guy with robes, with wreath in his hair, goblet of wine, the ho ho, happy party guy. And you're scratching your head saying, who is he? He sort of looks like Santa, but he also sort of looks like some Roman God. Well, that's who he was. He was Saturn. But they Christianized and called him Father Christmas. They couldn't call him St. Nicholas because St. Nicholas was sort of outlawed in England after the Reformation. And So during Henry VIII's time, Christmas in England becomes sort of like a party time, sort of like a Mardi Gras. People forget Mardi Gras used to be a religious day. It was the day before Lent when you would fast 40 days before Easter. Now it's this lewd party in New Orleans. That's sort of what happened with Mardi Gras. Drinking, carousing, wassling, where you take a drink of booze and throw the rest of it on some plant open for a nice harvest the next year. And so when the Puritans took over England in 1642, they outlawed Christmas. They even tore down Shakespeare's Globe Theater because they said it was a place for, you know, lewd activity taking place. And the Puritans settled Massachusetts, and they had a five shilling fine for anybody caught celebrating Christmas. Puritan leader Cotton Mather said, can you and your conscience think that our holy Savior is honored by mad mirth, long eating hard, drinking, lewd gaming, rude revelry fit for a Bacchus or a Mohammedan Ramadan? You cannot possibly think so. And so it was the Dutch that loved Christmas and loved St. Nicholas, and the Dutch settled New York in 1624. And so that's where we get our traditions from. So the Dutch still to this day have St. Nicholas coming once a year as a saint, as a bishop, with his mitered hat, his staff and his robes, and he's riding a white horse. And they have him coming from Spain, and he has with him a little Moorish costumed helpers, Varde Peak. Well, the Moors or the Muslims and Zvarte P. Black Peter is this little helper of St. Nicholas. Now, the Dutch pronunciation of St. Nicholas is Sant Niklaus or Sinterklaus. Sant Niklaus. So if you. Basically, when we say Santa Claus, you're saying the Dutch pronunciation of Saint Nicholas. And so anyway, in Holland, they tell the kids, if you're good, St. Nicholas gives you a present. If you're naughty, Svarte Pete will put you in a gunny sack, take you back to Spain, and sell you into Muslim slavery. So often when you tell little kids that Santa Claus is coming, they start crying. I actually talked to a guy from Holland. He said, yeah, in my neighborhood, the night before St Nicholas visited, all the little boys would go to sleep at night with pocket knives in their pockets. I said, why is that? He goes, that's to cut ourselves out of the gunny sack in case Varte Pete took us. And anyway, so people forget the Muslims enslaved over a million Europeans. There were entire Catholic orders through the Middle Ages called the Trinitarians. The head of the order was called the Ransomer. And they would collect alms and donations at church services to try to get your friend back who was captured by Muslim pirates or whatever. And so anyway, the Dutch settled New Amsterdam, which became New York. And the first Dutch Reformed church is the St Nicholas Dutch Reformed Church. And it ends up becoming this enormous church there at 49th and 5th Avenue, 48th. But as it turns into a financial district, the people move out, and it's this big cavern with nobody going there. And they sell it to Sinclair Oil Company. In 1948, they tear it down and build an oil building. But the church moved out to a different location. They called it the Marble Collegiate Church, and it had Norman Vincent Peale as a pastor. And among the attendees was Donald Trump. How do you like that? But the Roosevelts, they're a Dutch name. They went to the St Nicholas Dutch Reformed Church. And, you know, Teddy Roosevelt went to St. Nicholas Dutch Reformed Church. Anyway, so in New York, you see a transmit transformation. Washington Irving, we know him because he wrote Legend of Sleepy Hollow, Rip Van Winkle, and he wrote Dietrich Knickerbocker's History of New York from the Dutch settlement to the end of the Dutch Dynasty, 1809. In there, he names the city Gotham City. And it stuck. And the Dietrich Knickerbocker became such a popular book that it turned into the New York Knicks, the basketball game.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah. I was always wondering, what's a Knickerbocker?

[Bill Federer]

Yeah. And so there was a Dutch name. And so he describes St Nicholas visiting the Dutch children riding in his wagon over the treetops, throwing out presents once a year to his favorites. But he describes him not dressed as a bishop, but in a typical Dutch outfit of long trunk, hose, leather belt, boots, and a stock and hat. And then in New York, you have Clement Moore. His family donates land for the Episcopal seminary. He's a Hebrew professor. And there's a Clement Moore park at 10th and 22nd in New York right now. And anyway, he writes a poem, 1823, for his six children titled A Visit from St Nicholas. So it was the night before Christmas, and all through the house, not a creature was stirring, not even a mouth. The stockings were hung by the chimney with care in hopes that St. Nicholas would soon be there. So he's still a saint, but he shrunk. He's a right jolly, plump old elf. I laughed when I saw him in spite of myself. But then in the middle 1800s, he got something else added on. Civil War. Harper's Weekly magazine has an illustrator named Thomas Nast n a s t. We know him because he invented the Republican elephant and the Democrat mule for his cartoon.

[Host/Interviewer]

Hold the saw right there. Hold saw right there, Phil. Because, man, we are cover in the waterfront here, aren't we? We're looking at the origin of Christmas holiday traditions. And you can see that when you go back far enough, you get to Christianity. They kind of get convoluted as they go through history, but there really is a Christ in Christmas. And we'll get back to that and see if Phil thinks we ought to worship on this day. I'm Frank Turek. Back in two. Merry Christmas, ladies and gentlemen. You're listening. I don't have enough faith to be an atheist. With me, Frank Turek on the American.

[Frank Turek]

Family radio network, we're giving you an encore presentation today from my friend Bill.

[Host/Interviewer]

Federer, and we're going through the Christmas traditions.

[Frank Turek]

Where do these things come from? How did they get to where they are today? Are they in any way related to Christianity? Things like Santa, stockings, reindeer, Christmas trees, all that. That's what we're talking about today. So let's go back to Bill Federer and hear the rest of what he has to say going back to Bill.

[Host/Interviewer]

Here we go.

[Bill Federer]

Thomas Nast N a s d. He's an illustrator for Harper's Weekly magazine, and he invented the Republican elephant, Democrat mule. He does a cover of St Nicholas visiting the union troops, and he's sitting on his wagon full of toys, and in the background, you see a little north pole sign. Lo and behold, that's the first time St Nicholas is coming from the North Pole. Prior to that it was always, you know, Celestial City, New Jerusalem and so forth. But the last installment is Coca Cola hires an artist. Haddon Sunbloom.

[Host/Interviewer]

Now wait, wait, wait, Bill, let me just. Because I see in the email you put out, by the way, you can get an email from bill every day. Americanminute.com you'll get one about Christmas. This one we're talking about today, maybe on Christmas, I don't know. But it was coming from the North Pole because was that a jab at the Confederates in the south during the Civil War?

[Bill Federer]

Right, right. So he was a political cartoonist. And so there was a political jab at the south, the Confederate south, to say St. Nicholas is associated with the North. And prior to then St Nicholas came from Celestial City, New Jerusalem, heaven.

[Host/Interviewer]

Even Santa Claus is being politically maneuvered here. He's been exploited. Okay, go ahead.

[Bill Federer]

So hasn't Sunblom is an artist who developed Quaker Oats man and Aunt Jemima and he is hired by Coca Cola in 1930 to do a painting of St Nicholas. Santa Claus drinking Coke does it a new picture every year for 33 years. And coca Cola pioneered mass marketing. So this is the most recognizable image. He's full grown now. He's not a little elf. He's got rosy cheeks, right. He's big huggable hand, grandfather character. But we have to realize if you peel back in time, there really was a St. Nicholas. He lived in Asian Minor. Today that's Turkey. And he loved Jesus and he became a Christian and even went into the ministry and was imprisoned, awaiting death from Roman emperor Dio. He was let out. He preached against sexual immorality. Preached against. He was been a pro life preacher, preached, stood up for the Trinity, confronted corrupt politicians. But above all he was generous and he gave to the poor. But he wanted to do it anonymously because he wanted the credit to go to God and not to him. So it's a fascinating story. There's other things that I wrote a book and the title of the book is There really is a Santa Claus History of Saint Nicholas and Christmas holiday traditions. Some of the other traditions I get into is why December 25th and this.

[Host/Interviewer]

Is why that start there because a lot of people think that's in the Bible and they think that, well, you know, Jesus really wasn't born then. So the Bible's wrong. They don't even realize it's not in the Bible. But where does it's December 25th. You know, I've Heard the winter solstice was celebrated. Christians just kind of put that Christmas, let's. Let's call it Christmas. How did this come about? This December 25th issue.

[Bill Federer]

So the gospel, Luke has John the Baptist, dad, Zechariah's dad, in the temple, and the people are praying outside. The angel appears to him, tells he's going to have a son. He's supposed to name him John. And there's a little line you just get past, and it says, he is of the course of Abijah. What's that? King David divided the sons of Aaron, Eleazar and Ithamar, divided him into 24 family groups and gave them each two turns a year at the temple to offer the incense. And the family of Abijah, his turn at the temple, the descendants, is the end of September. And it was known in the church calendar, but it was confirmed when the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered. And in 1958, Israeli scholar Sherman Yahoo Talman. I know I'm not pronouncing that right. Publishes research from the Qumran, Dead Sea scrolls, parchment number 321. And he was able to reconstruct the Saradotal Rota calendar. What's that? That's the calendar that shows what families are supposed to be ministering at what days. And the family of Abijah is supposed to be there on the 24th through the 30th of the eighth month, which would have worked out to the end of September. And so that's Yom Kippur. That's the day of atonement. And why is that important? Because it's normally around September 25th. And so if he went home and his wife Elizabeth gets pregnant around September 25, then we know when the angel Gabriel appears to Mary, and by the power of Holy Spirit, she conceives. And he says, you, cousin Elizabeth is in her sixth month, right? Mary goes to visit. And so six months after September 25th is March 25th. So the traditional church date for the angel appearing to Mary is March 25th. It's called the date of the Annunciation. Well, nine months after March 25th is what? December 25th. And this was known as the church calendar, but it was confirmed after the discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls. And in 1958, this Israeli scholar published his findings of the Sacerdot calendar. Just a fascinating thing. And then there's the Christmas tree, if we got time for that.

[Host/Interviewer]

Go ahead, hit me with the Christmas tree. Yeah.

[Bill Federer]

So the lights at that time, first appearance, Hanukkah. What's that? Jews are taken captive to Babylon. The Persian king, Cyrus, lets them go back. They rebuild. But then Persians conquered by Alexander the Great and he dies. His empire's cut into four pieces. And the general that takes Persia is Seleucius. And so there's a Seleucius descendant who's a king, and he decides he's gonna just wipe out the Jews. Kills 80,000 of them, and the Jews finally drive him out. It's called the Maccabean Wars. They go in around 165,164 BC clean out the temple, and they're going to relight the candelabra, the menorah, but there's only enough oil for one day, but it lasts eight, miraculously. So the word dedication in the Hebrew is Hanukkah. And so In John chapter 20 says, Jesus was in Jerusalem for the feast of dedication. He was in there for Hanukkah. And so this one lights would have been first seen at this time of the year. But then the tree. So we got Nicholas is the Greek saint, and he's confronting paganism. You got Patrick is the saint, Ireland, and he's confronting pagan druids. You have a saint from Britain, and he becomes the one to confront the Germans. And so the Germanic tribes that came across the Roman borders worshiped Thor. And that's where you get the word Thor's Day. And so those that are really stickler about not wanting to celebrate Christmas, you better not call the name Thor's Day, because Thor is a pagan God. And matter of fact, the Quakers refused to call it Thursday. They call it Fifth Day because they didn't want to say it was Thursday because they realized. And so Thor was this pagan God. They also worshiped Woden, who's another Germanic pagan goddess where you get the word Wednesday. But Thor supposedly lived in a big oak tree in Geismar, Germany, and they would do human sacrifice in front of this tree. And so this St. Boniface, around 788 A.D. he goes to Geismar. He's also called Winfred. So Boniface or Winfred, he takes a big ax and he chops down Thor's tree. And so then somebody says, well, you can't do that. Somebody else says, well, if Thor's really a God, he can protect his own tree. And so this is the beginning of the Germans becoming Christians. So Boniface points at a little evergreen tree because it was the night before Christmas. And he said, let this be the tree of the Christ child. See how it points toward heaven. Its leaves are evergreen. Symbolizing everlasting life. Let it shelter no deeds of blood but life, because your houses are built of fur and so forth. So the Germans would take a little pine tree and they would hang it upside down in their houses, and this was the symbolism that they defeated the pagan Thor and so forth. But Martin Luther's coming home around 1520, and he's a cold December sky, and the stars are twinkling, and he puts candles in the branches of the tree and says, this is like the sky above Bethlehem on the night of Christ's birth.

[Frank Turek]

Wow.

[Bill Federer]

And so, just a fascinating story, but there really is a Santa Claus, and.

[Host/Interviewer]

You have an entire book on this. So if people really want to get into this, get the book by Bill Federer. There really is a Santa Claus. The history of St Nicholas and Christmas Holiday traditions. But, Bill, before we go with just about a minute or so to go, so we've got to get to this question. You know, a lot of Christians say, oh, we can't worship or we can't celebrate. I should say Christmas because it has pagan roots. What do you say to that?

[Bill Federer]

We're celebrating the birth of Christ, and Jesus came out of the book Mark. It says that the Son of God came not to be served, but to serve and to give his life a ransom for many. What's that? God is a just God. He has to judge every sin. It's his nature to judge sin. Matter of fact, that's implanted in each of us so much that every nci, first two minutes, somebody's killed. You're held captive the rest of the hour knowing that the person that did it has to be judged. There's something in you that drives. There's something in God that has to judge the sin. So what did he do? He himself provided the Lamb to take the judgment for the sin. And Jesus, the word of God, became flesh, and he voluntarily submitted himself to be the Lamb and to take the punishment. So God is just that he has to judge every sin. He's loving that he provided the Lamb to take the judgment for the sin. That's why we approach God through the Lamb. So I'm like, are you good enough to go to heaven? No, you'll never be good enough. But he was good enough to pay for all your sins. So you approach God through the Lamb. Your debts have been paid.

[Host/Interviewer]

And that's why we celebrate Christmas, because God came into the world as a lamb, despite the fact that some of these traditions may have been polluted a little bit with pagan ideas. What your intention is, is to bring people back to the real reason for the season, and that is Christ the Lamb. Bill, it's been wonderful having you on. Thank you so much.

[Bill Federer]

Well, thank you, Frank. And it's all in the book. There really isn't Santa Claus. History of St. Nicholas, Christmas Holiday traditions and Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night.

[Host/Interviewer]

Merry Christmas, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you so much. I'll see you here next week. God bless you all. See you next week.