← I Don't Have Enough FAITH to Be an ATHEIST
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- [00:03]
A
Ladies and gentlemen, we're just a couple of weeks from Christmas, and a great miracle took place at Christmas when the Lord himself, added humanity to his deity, came to Earth, allowed the creatures that rebelled against him to eventually torture and kill him so he could take our punishment upon himself. However, that couldn't have happened if miracles are not possible. Are miracles possible? Did they happen in the past and do they still happen today? That's a question that my friend, the great Lee Strobel covered in his book, the Case for Miracles. This book came out a few years ago, but it's now been turned into a major motion picture that's gonna be in theaters this week. It's the perfect time coming up to Christmas. You're gonna want to see this. And the great Lee Strobel is here to talk about it with us, ladies and gentlemen. So here is the great Lee Strobel rings his own crowd as always. Lee, how are you?
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B
Hey, Frank. So good to see you, man.
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A
You.
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B
You're one of the few people who's busier than I am. My goodness. I see you everywhere on the news and so forth, and I know your life has been turned upside down in recent months, and we've been praying for you every day. That God use you as he greatly.
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A
Has, and he's used you as well. In fact, I just saw you speaking at Greg Lori's church a couple weeks ago.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And you have another book out called. I think it's called Seeing the Supernatural, right?
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B
Yes. Two books. One Seeing the Supernatural, which looks at the question of how do we know that there really is a realm beyond what we can see and touch. And then the Case for Christmas, that's kind of an inexpensive spiritual stocking stuffer that you can give to someone this Christmas who's spiritually curious, deals with all kinds of questions about Christmas, and sets the record straight on a lot of misunderstandings we have about Christmas. And. And so that's come out.
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A
Well, before we get into the movie, the Case for Miracles, tell us about that book and what Hobby Lobby has done.
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B
Yeah, so Hobby Lobby bought half a million copies of the book, and they're giving it away for free to customers between now and Christmas. So I'm getting emails from all these people around the country showing me a picture of them in their book and say, hey, look what I got at Hobby Lobby for free. And I thought, this is great. I talked to Steve Green about it, of course. He's the head of the Museum of the Bible and the Hobby Lobby. And. And it's just A partnership to get out the gospel. The gospel is clearly spelled out in the book. And it's a book that looks at the historical reality of Christmas, the incarnation. So it's a good book for Christians to deepen their faith, but also for nonbelievers to hear the gospel, to see the evidence for the birth of Jesus and what it means to us.
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A
So the Case for Christmas, real short little book right behind you there, Lee, on the table. And that's what, how many pages is it?
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B
Oh, it's like it's 22,000 words. I think it's under 100 pages. You can read it in 50 minutes or an hour or so.
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A
Okay.
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B
And, and it's so cheap if you buy it, it's under, you know, I think one place has it for 250. So the whole idea was make it inexpensive. I actually, no kidding. I had to buy my own book. I bought 300 copies of my book and just to give away free. So I've been doing this since Halloween. We gave them away to kids who were trick or treating. We said, here's some candy and here's a book for your parents. I've been giving away to flight attendants and waitresses and waiters and hotel clerks and everybody I encounter along and people are so funny. You give them a book and they clutch it and say, oh, thank you. I love to read this looks so interesting. So who knows how God will use it.
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A
So where can you buy it in bulk? Can people buy it in bulk right now?
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B
I think you can get it through Amazon. I think they have it in bulk. I'm not quite sure, but it's so cheap. I mean you just order 10 copies. Fees are real easy.
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A
Yeah, 25 bucks or something.
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B
Yeah, okay.
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A
The Case for Christmas. So pick that up. How did this Case for Miracles book turn into a movie? What? How did that happen?
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B
Well, I got a friend named Manny Sandoval. Manny's parents immigrated to the United States from Guatemala many years ago. His dad was an atheist. He became a Christian and, and, and started a little church in South Central la. Poverty stricken area. And that's where he served his whole life, ministering to people there. And Manny and his brother Gil grew up, they moved off to Phoenix and started making movies. And they actually made a previous movie based on my book, the Case for Heaven. And so we become friends. And he said, let's, you know, Christmas is a time when people are more spiritually open, they're spiritually curious. There are more non believers in church on Christmas and Christmas Eve than Any other day of the year. So why not have a film that talks about not just the miracle of Christmas, but as you said, Frank, is God still in the miracle business today? Because here's the thing. If we've got good evidence that miracles are continuing to exist, then that gives extra credibility to the miracles in the Bible. Sure. Because if they're happening today, they're in peer reviewed medical journals and documented by multiple medical researchers, then now it sudden seems so far fetched that in the first century miracles happened as well.
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A
Well, let's talk about it. What are some of the miracles that the movie highlights that have been documented in peer reviewed medical journals?
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B
Yeah.
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A
Pick one.
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B
Let's go. Okay. One of my favorites involves a woman who was blind for a dozen years with an incurable condition, juvenile macular degeneration. Nobody's ever been cured of that. She went to a school for the blind. She learned how to read braille, she walked with a white cane, and she married a Baptist pastor. And so one night, they're getting ready to go to bed, she's already in bed, and he comes over and he puts his hand on her shoulder and he begins to cry and he begins to pray. And he says, lord, I know you can heal my wife. I know you can do it. And Lord, I pray you do it tonight. And with that, she opened her eyes and saw her husband for the first time. Wow. She said later, after years of darkness, I could see. I could see perfectly. It was a miracle. And sure enough, this was documented by multiple medical researchers with all the documentation published in a peer reviewed medical journal. And this is not just something you read on the Internet or hear whispered in the hallways of a church. This is documented stuff. And to me, if four things are true, number one, if we do have solid medical documentation, number two, if we have multiple incredible eyewitnesses who have no motive to deceive, Number three, if there is no natural explanation for this, and number four, if it takes place in the context of prayer, I think the evidence is clear and convincing. God is still in the miracle business today. What do you do with something like that? First person in history ever to be documented, healed, especially spontaneously, of juvenile immaculate degeneration. Right. As her husband prays for her.
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A
That's the key point, that he prays and it happens.
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B
Exactly.
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A
Someone could say, oh, it's an anomaly. Suddenly, you know, she just woke up and could see. We don't know why, but when he. He prays.
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B
Exactly.
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A
Happens.
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B
Yep. Yeah.
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A
How do you get around? How long ago did that happen?
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B
Well, she lived on another 50 plus years. These, we want to make sure that these were not miracles, that all of a sudden two weeks later she's blind again. Right. So these are miracles that took place, some of them in 1980s, but again, we have medical records from the Mayo Clinic and reputable institutions on these things. But so she lived another 50 years and with her eyesight continued on. So this is not stuff like it was just a flash in the pan. This is stuff that continued to go on and on.
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A
Right, right. That's amazing. Now people are always going to ask, okay, she was healed. So many people are not. What do you say to that, Lee?
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B
Yeah, we deal with that in the movie and in the book. And you know, this is personal because as you know, my wife Leslie has an incurable neuromuscular condition. She's been in pain for 20 years and she'll be in pain the rest of her life unless God does a miracle, which he has not done. So this is a personal issue and for a lot of people it's a very personal, real issue. And I say a couple things. Number one, healings were not automatic in the New Testament either. The Bible says Jesus didn't do many miracles in Nazareth. It says the disciples were given the authority to heal in Matthew and then seven chapters later, they couldn't heal an epileptic boy. Paul didn't heal everybody. He had a buddy named Trophimus. Trophimus got sick, he didn't heal him. Paul went off on a missionary journey. And then Paul had this thorn in the flesh which we don't quite know what that was, of some physical affliction that apparently was never physically healed. So it wasn't automatic back then either. And God is sovereign. God understands and knows things that we don't know. Romans 8:28 says he can even take the difficulties of our life and cause good to emerge. I see that in my wife's life, how she's become a woman of compassion and empathy that I don't think she would be if she hadn't gone through this experience. And then I like to say, you know what? I know you don't think God can draw good from your suffering. But if God can take the worst thing that's ever happened in the universe, which is the death of the Son of God on the cross, and from that create the best thing in the universe, which is the opening of heaven to all who follow him, then he can certainly deal with the difficulties in your life and draw good from them, as we see. So Many times. Think of John Erickson, Tada and so many others who've gone through difficult, difficult physical afflictions. And yet God has drawn amazingly amazing good. And by the way, the Bible says in Hebrews, one of the most amazing verses to me is it says, even Jesus learned obedience through suffering.
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A
That's right.
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B
So, you know, there you go.
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A
There's always a ripple effect, friends. We don't always see it. Sometimes we do. The tragic murder of my friend Charlie Kirk has led to much good. Yes, it was an evil event, but it can bring good people come to Christ. People are now interested in Jesus where they weren't before. And this movie can help them get interested as well. The Case for Miracle is going to be in theaters this week. We'll tell you when and where right after the break. Don't go anywhere where you're listening to I Don't have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. On the American Family Radio Network and other stations around the country, If you want to make a case for Christianity, we have the guy for you. The Case for Christ, the Case for Faith, the Case for Creator, Case for Miracles. He's got all sorts of case books and he does a great job doing that. That's the great Lee Strobel. He our guest today. Lee does a fabulous job with these books because he interviews the best scholars in the world and then puts it in understandable pros so we can finally get what these scholars are saying. And you did that with the Case for Miracles, Lee. And now it's a movie. By the way, where's the movie going to be and what days? What days can people see it?
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B
It's in a thousand meter theaters coast to coast. Just go to the Case for Miracles movie and put in your zip code. It'll tell you the local theaters that are showing it and you get tickets right there. You can see the trailer too, which is awesome. They did a great job in the trailer.
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A
Okay, The Case for Miracles dot com. It's in theaters December 15th to the 18th. So that's Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.
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B
That's right.
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A
This week coming up.
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B
That's right, yep.
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A
Okay. Hey, if you go to church or you have a small group on Wednesday, might be a good time to take some people there. Ah, I can't go to church. Well, can you come to a movie?
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B
Yeah, exactly. You know, we did a showing in a couple of kind of sneak preview premieres at a couple places, Nashville and Miami, and we've had an amazing reaction. In Miami especially, you know, we show it to a small Group of people, mostly influencers and so forth. And. And after the movie ended, people were applauding in the middle of the movie to some of the miracles and crying. You could hear sobbing in some of these stories. And then the amazing thing happened. The lights came up, nobody left. People stood and they began praying for each other. There was a woman there whose husband has cancer, and so people gathered around and put their arms and were praying for him. And this was going on all around the room. And then the theater people came in and said, hey, we got to clear this out because we got to show another movie. And so everybody moved into the lobby and little clusters of people are in the lobby praying for each other. I think it was just so encouraging. It happened. We did a premiere showing in Nashville the other night where I was with Leslie. And same thing happened. This woman was there with her husband. And we noticed as they stood there, she's crying. And we said, what's going on? And she said, well, we've been trying to conceive a tribe. We've had three miscarriages. And I said, well, let's pray. And so we just put arms around her and prayed for them. And people were praying for others. I'm hoping this really sparks a sense of reaching out to God during this Christmas season and that non believers who come will see something special, something emotional. Because, Frank, you're a writer. You write books and you've done documentaries and things like that. There's a difference between what you put in a book and how you write it versus a film. You know, the book is all footnoted and documented. And you want to see the peer reviewed medical journal report on this miracle, click this footnote and you can see all the information and so forth. A movie is more emotive, frankly. Yes, we have the cases in there that are documented, so forth. But it's not a typical documentary where people talking heads are just talking. The story is Manny and I, my friend from Guatemala and I are in a 1972 Ford Bronco, which is, by the way, the worst vehicle ever built. It was horrible. But we're taking a road trip down Route 66 in the southwestern United States. And he comes from a Pentecostal background where there was always an anticipation of miracles in a very poverty stricken area where he said, we didn't have money to go to the doctor. We prayed for healings and expected God to heal and so forth. And I come from an atheist background, so I'm like the skeptic. So we have this conversation as we drive through this incredible scenery. The cinematography is gorgeous. And then we flash to these miracle cases that we talk about. So it's kind of got a different vibe to it. It's not a typical documentary that you might see, but I think, you know, it's something that'll stir people's hearts and minds as well.
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A
So how are these miracles depicted? Are they acted out or are they spoken of, or how does it work in various ways?
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B
In the movie, we have one case involving a woman named Barbara. It's my favorite miracle, Barbara. Well documented. Mayo Clinic records. Barbara was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis as a teenager. She deteriorated rapidly. She had multiple hospitalizations, multiple surgeries to the point where her doctor said, she is the most chronically ill patient I've ever encountered. They put her in hospice. They said, we're just going to let her die next time she gets pneumonia because it's just postponing the inevitable. So this is seven or eight years later, she's in hospice at home. She has a tube in her throat so she could breathe. She's lost control of her urination and bowels. She's lost her eyesight. She just sees gray shapes. She's curled up like a pretzel, physically. Her fingers are touching her wrists. Her feet are extended. One lung is collapsed. The other lung is at 50%. And somebody called the Christian radio station in Chicago and said, hey, pray for this poor woman. She's on her deathbed. So we documented that at least 450 people began praying for Barbara because they wrote letters saying, I'm praying for you. So On Pentecost Sunday, 1981, she's in her bedroom. Two friends are reading her some of these letters from people praying for her. And Barbara, from the corner of the room where nobody was, hears the voice of God say to her, my child, get up and walk. So she rips the tubes from her throat and says, go find my parents. I want them here for this. God just told me to get up and walk. So her friends run up. She jumps out of bed. She told me later, she said. I said, what's the first thing you noticed? She said, first thing I noticed, my feet were flat in the floor. I hadn't walked in seven years. My feet were rigidly extended, and now they were normal. And the second thing I noticed, my hands came uncurled and were normal. And then she laughed. She said, the third thing I noticed, I could see. She said, you think that'd be the first thing I noticed? It was the third thing I noticed. But she was instantly Healed of the effects of multiple sclerosis instantaneously. The funny part was, it was on Pentecost Sunday, she went to a Wesleyan church, her family in Wheaton, Illinois, and they said, let's go and thank God there's a service tonight. So they go, they arrive late, and they're coming in the back, the front door of the church, and the pastor's up front, and he says, anybody got any announcements? And Barbara, who nobody had seen out of a wheelchair in seven years, starts walking down the center aisle, and the place erupts with people singing Amazing Grace. I once was blind and now I see. So the next day, she goes to one of her doctors. She's walking down the corridor. He said, later, I saw her walking to my office down the corridor. My first thought was, oh, she died, and that's a ghost, because this is medically impossible. And indeed, she ended up marrying a pastor. And they ministered at a church in Fredericksburg, Virginia, Wesleyan Church, all these years. And so in the movie, you see her case reenacted, and then at the end, you see the actual interview I did with the her. And you hear her after these years telling her story with such passion and such awe and wonder. Even after all these years, it just moved my heart. I got to know her very well. Just a wonderful, wonderful woman serving the Lord all her days. So. So some are acted out by actors, some are. We have documents, documentary footage that we've shot of us interviewing them. And it's just. It just blows my mind, especially this, as I say, this Christmas season, because we're talking about the great miracle of the incarnation.
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A
That's right.
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B
What's better than that?
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A
The Case for Miracles movie is the place to go. The website, you'll see it all there. You'll see the trailer, you'll see who's in the movie. You can buy tickets there. You can put your zip code in and figure out where the theater is. It's this week, ladies and gentlemen, Monday through Thursday nights, December 15th through the 18th. How many miracles are depicted in the movie?
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B
Oh, golly, I never counted them. I don't even know. Maybe half a dozen or seven or something like that. That we talk about different varieties, different things. We even talking about the. Even though it's technically. I mean, if a miracle is defined, I think best by Richard Purtill, the philosopher, who said, a miracle is an event brought about by the power of God that is a temporary exception to the ordinary course of nature for the purpose of showing that God has acted in history. I think That's a good definition. But some things are like creation is miraculous. There was no pre existing conditions to be a violation of it. But it is. And in it you'll actually see the telescope that I got to peer through. That's the first telescope through which scientists begin to determine for the first time that the universe is expanding. And of course, if it's expanding, then you play the tape backwards and it contracts to a beginning point. And that of course brings up the question, whatever begins to exist as a cause, we know now the universe began to exist and therefore there must be a cause behind it. And it points toward a supernatural creator. But you'll actually see the telescope that I got to peer through as we take our church. No, this is actually. This occurred before Mount Wilson, was it? Yes, it was before Hubble then. It was before Hubble. It occurred at the Lowell Observatory in Tucson, Arizona. Not Tucson, but Flagstaff, Arizona. They're the first ones to begin to get the evidence that the universe expanding later. And this came several years before the Mount Wilson Observatory thing. So this goes way, way, way, way back. I think 1912 or something.
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A
Really?
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B
Yeah, very early. It was the first detection that. That began to point toward the evidence of the universe expanding.
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A
Well, that's the question I always ask people. What's the greatest miracle in the Bible? Most people will say the resurrection. And the answer is no. Depends upon how you. Yeah, really? The greatest act of God.
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B
Yes.
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A
No, the greatest miracle in the Bible is the first verse. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. If that verse is true. Resurrections are easy.
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B
Exactly. You know, you get to the virgin birth and you say you remember, you know, Bill Craig, of course, and Bill Craig used to doubt the virgin birthday because he said, well, that would require a Y chromosome in the ovum of Mary that she wouldn't have. And then he realized, wait a minute, I've got all this evidence for God creating the universe. If he can do that, then he can create a Y chromosome in Mary's ovum. Yeah.
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A
It's interesting because when you brought up the fact that sometimes a disease or a problem in life can lead to good down the road that you wouldn't have foreseen. Bill always talks about the fact that when he had that muscular disease, which he still has.
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B
Yes.
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A
That prevented him from going into athletics, which is what he wanted to do, and instead he put his nose in the books. And now he's one of the great Christian apologists of our time.
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B
It's exactly right. Isn't that Interesting how God used that to guide him down that pathway. Yeah.
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A
So to all of our benefit.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And it's a physical condition for him that he has to deal with, but it has led to good by his own admission. So sometimes we don't. We don't know how a negative thing in our lives can actually lead to great good later. And that's why we just trust God.
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B
Yes.
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A
For it.
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B
And we do believe all those followers will be healed at some point. Maybe not until heaven.
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A
Right. Yeah. Right. Lee, do you think there is a difference? Dr. Geister always used to talk about this. People would ask him, you know, do you think miracles occur today? And all this? And he would take more of a sensationist view, I think, with regard to the gifts. But he would say, of course God can do a miracle whenever he wants. And he would draw a distinction between the fact of miracles and the gift of miracles.
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B
Exactly.
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A
Can you unpack that for our audience? And we're coming up on a break in 30 seconds, but you can start it now and we'll.
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B
Yeah. Cessationists are people who. There's two kinds of cessationists. One, like Dr. Geisler, who would say God can still do miracles. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Right. But I don't think that the gift of healing, for instance, in apostolic days is continued to modern times. That's kind of sort of where I'm at in the sense that I do believe there's good documents of documentary evidence of miracles today. I'm open, I'm kind of agnostic on the question of are there still people who have a spiritual gift of healing today? That's kind of a separate question.
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A
Yeah. And we can maybe unpack it further after the break. But you want to see the movie that Lee is behind called the Case for Miracles, go to the Case for Miracles movie online. Put your zip code in there. You can see where it's going to be this week, December 15th through the 18th. That's Monday through Thursday night. You can also buy tickets right there. Bring a friend, maybe a non believer. All right, see you in a few minutes. Don't go anywhere. Students across America are more open to the truth of Christianity than ever before. And Dr. Frank Turek is taking the powerful evidence for God to campuses like UC Berkeley, the University of Georgia, Ohio State and Alabama, reaching thousands in person and millions more online. But every event now requires costly security to keep students safe and cross Examine never charges students to attend. That's why we urgently need your support. The culture is dark but hearts are open help keep the light of truth shining by donating today@crossexamine.org that's cross examine with a D on the end.org. A lot of people don't believe in miracles, ladies and gentlemen, but look around, you're living in one. This universe is a miracle. You wouldn't be here unless there was a supernatural being that brought the universe into existence in a fine tuned way by, by the way, an extremely fine tuned way. And you couldn't even think without a supernatural component because if your thoughts are just the product of molecules bumping into one another and nothing else, then you shouldn't believe anything you think. But you do believe a lot of what you think because there's a supernatural element even to thinking that allows you to follow the evidence where it leads. And Lee Strobel, who has written so many great books beginning with the Case for Christ, recently came out with the Case for Miracles, a book you should. It's only a few years old, but now it's a movie and it's coming out this weekend, or I should say this week, December 15th to the 18th in theaters. Go to the Case for Miracles do movie to see where it's going to be and how you can see it. Lee, give us another miracle that the, the movie gets into if you let.
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B
Me give you one that got cut from the movie because this bothers me, because I this is one of my favorites because I got to know this guy. His name is Chris Gunnison. He lives in Texas. And Chris, when he was born, they couldn't keep, they couldn't feed him. He would vomit everything up. So they did surgery. They determined he had an incurable condition called gastroparesis, which, in other words, his stomach was 100% paralyzed. So he couldn't. So they inserted two tubes in his abdomen so that he could be fed directly into his intestines. Well, he lived that way for 16, for 16 years of his life. So he's not able to eat through his mouth and digest food. He had to be fed formula basically through these tubes in his abdomen. And it was a pain in the neck to do athletics. He's trying to be a normal kid, and it was difficult. And so when he was 16 years old, his parents brought him to a church. And the pastor gets up and the pastors talk about how God had healed him of something miraculously. And so the parents brought him up. Chris up to the pastor and said, hey, would you pray for our son, Chris? He's got a paralyzed stomach. Nobody's Ever been healed of it, but we don't know what to do. So he lays a hand on Chris's shoulder. And Chris told me, he said, I felt an electric shock go through my body the minute he began to pray for me. And he was instantaneously healed of gastroparesis, I think the only case in history of this happening. So much so that he goes out and that night he goes to a Chinese restaurant and eats food for the first time that he can digest. And so he's eating egg rolls and all this stuff. Yeah, this is awesome. And so he goes to the doctor and they examine him and say, I don't know how this happened, but your stomach is completely normal. They went in and they removed the tubes that had been in there for 16 years. And during my favorite part of the interview, I'm interviewing him and he pulls up his shirt to show me the scars from where they had removed the tubes from his stomach. Now, again, this was a case documented by multiple medical researchers and published in a peer reviewed medical journal. The documentation is there. I talk about it. I believe I talk about that case in my book, Case for Miracles. But. And it's kind of cool because he said, you know, when I was so sick all those years and couldn't digest anything, was in the hospital a lot, he said, I really appreciated the. Especially the Christian nurses and doctors who would reach out to me. And so he has now become a nurse, he said, because I want to serve other people the way that people serve me when I was ill. How.
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A
Did you find this guy? How did you find any of these folks?
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B
Well, in medical journals. From medical journals. So we got these medical journal reports about these healings that basically go, what do you do? Right. And so we tracked down the people that did the research and published the article and said, hey, we'd like to connect with this guy. They contact him, say, are you willing, willing to do an interview? Okay. So that's kind of how we connected with them. And why did that get cut?
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A
That sounds like a great.
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B
I know. How long's the movie?
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A
How long's the movie?
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B
It's not that long. It's like an hour and 20 minutes or something like that.
- [28:10]
A
All right.
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B
But it. It for some reason just didn't fit in. And so. All right, it's. I'm gonna have to do a sermon someday and tell the story and use a video from that, you know, But Chris is a great guy. And I actually was diagnosed recently with severe arthritis in my right hip. And he said, can I. Can I pray for you. I said, yeah, please do. So here, here's this guy supernaturally healed by God who turns around and prays for me. This guy, he doesn't know, just gained energy for my hip and you know.
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A
Let'S go back, let's go back to the quick discussion about the difference between the, the gift of miracles and the fact of miracles.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Because it seems to me that the apostles had a special gift.
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B
Yes.
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A
That would confirm that they were from God and therefore then people should listen to them.
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B
Yes.
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A
You know, Paul could heal people, Peter could heal people on command. It does appear that at some point they kind of lost that ability maybe after they were already affirmed enough. Now, can God give somebody a gift of healing today? Of course he could if he wanted to.
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B
He can.
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A
Yeah, yeah.
- [29:13]
B
We don't know. But to me it's kind of a secondary issue because the main issue is, is he still doing miracles right now? What's interesting, one of the cases we do in our movie and I write about my book, is a professor with a PhD from Harvard University who is now a professor at Indiana University, major secular university, who noticed that miracles tend to cluster around the world where the gospel is just breaking in. And so she said, ah, I can investigate this. So Mozambique in Africa was one of those places. So she sent a team of researchers to Mozambique and they went into the remote area, said, bring us all your deaf and blind or people with severe hearing or vision loss. They brought them in, they tested them Right. Then scientifically, what is your level of hearing? What is your level of vision? They get that documented. Then interestingly, they are immediately prayed for by people who believe they have a spiritual gift of healing. And these are people who God seems to use that way. So they were immediately prayed for. Immediately after that, they're tested scientifically again. Is there any difference? Is there any change? And guess what they found? Virtually everybody improved to one degree or the other. In fact, get this, the average improvement in visual acuity was tenfold. There was a woman named Martine. When they first encountered her, she could not hear the equivalent of a jackhammer next door. After prayer in the name of Jesus, she could hear normal conversations. So they said, this is extraordinary. So they said, we got to see if we can replicate it. So they went to Brazil, another place where the gospel is breaking in. They did the same test, they got the same results. Now this is a rigorous scientific study that was accepted for publication in one of the major secular, scientific peer reviewed medical journals, the Southern Medical Journal, and published in that journal and we interview in the movie, Dr. Candy Gunther Brown, who is the PhD behind it. And I interviewed her in my book and I said, what do you do with that? And, you know, as an academic at a secular university, she's not about to say it's a miracle, but what does she say? Something extraordinary is going on. This is not fraud. This is not some emotional atmosphere that's taking advantage of people's emotions. This is not a mistake. This is not a coincidence. This is something is going on. And I'm willing to fill in the blank, say, yeah, I think is something miraculous.
- [31:37]
A
Were all these people considered Christians who were doing the.
- [31:41]
B
Doing the praying? Yes, praying. Okay.
- [31:42]
A
But the subjects were not.
- [31:44]
B
But the subjects were not. And I'm not sure about the researchers. All the researchers, they were Christians or not. But I think this is a better scientific study. You hear about these other ones where they. They take people recovering from heart attacks and divide them into groups. You're prayed for, you're not prayed for. And then they try to see who. Who improves the most, who's prayed for or not. I don't like those studies. Now, all of them, except one, have shown that people who are prayed for do have better outcomes. So that's interesting. The one study that showed that they didn't get better outcomes. When I investigated, what I found is the people praying were not really Christians. They were part of a cult that claimed to be Christians, but they didn't believe in a personal God. They didn't believe in miracles. They didn't believe. They wouldn't subscribe to the Apostles Creed. I mean, they were the only people they could find to pray for this study. So I throw that out as being an anomaly. But then again, if you've got a group being prayed for and a group not being prayed for, the group not being prayed for, they've surely got relatives, spouses, and others who are praying for them. So I don't think those are good studies. I think the one in Mozambique makes a lot more sense. Test them, Pray for them, test them again. What do you do with that? That's why it's a rigorous study. Again, accepted in the Southern Medical Journal. That's one of the premier medical journals.
- [33:03]
A
In America, ladies and gentlemen. Think about this. For atheism to be true, every single miracle claim or spiritual experience in the history of the world has to be false. Is that possible? Well, I suppose it's possible. Is that reasonable to believe? No, absolutely not. If just one of these claims is true, yeah, atheism's faults, right?
- [33:26]
B
Well, you know what, Frank? We did a study by Barna where we commissioned him, and we asked the cross section of American adults, have you ever had at least one experience in your life that you can only explain as a miracle of God? 38% said yes. Now let's arbitrarily throw out 99% of those. Let's say they're wrong. It was a coincidence. It was the place. Placebo effect. It was a misdiagnosis, just arbitrary. That still leaves almost a million miracles just in the United States.
- [33:55]
A
Wow.
- [33:56]
B
So something is going on.
- [33:58]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Hey, Lee, here's a kind of an off the wall question that kind of a theological question. The efficacy of prayer.
- [34:08]
B
Yeah.
- [34:08]
A
You know, some people go, well, praying. That seems kind of odd. You mean God's not going to heal somebody unless I pray for them? You know, what do we. What do we say about that? What is the situation with prayer?
- [34:22]
B
I think there's a lot of dynamics there that are more than just, hey, God, do something for me. This is a way that God confirms his love for us. It's a way that he expresses his compassion toward people. It's a way that shows that he's real and so forth. And, you know, I had a. I'll tell it quickly, but when I was a new Christian, I had a sense from God that I should empty my bank account account. I had $500 in my name and write an anonymous cashier's check and send it on Friday afternoon to a woman in our church who Leslie and I knew who was going through tough times. And I'm thinking, that's all my money. So I said, leslie, pray with me. So she prayed. She gets the same sense. Okay, so we empty our bank account, $500 anonymous check, mail it on Friday to this young woman. Monday morning, before mail is delivered, I get a call from that young woman. She says, lee, would you pray for me? I said, what's wrong? She's crying. Something terrible's happened. I said, what? She said, I had a car accident over the weekend. I crashed my car. If I don't have my car, I'm gonna lose my job. I'm gonna lose my apartment. I don't know what to do. It's gonna cost $500 to fix my car. I don't have $500. What do I do? I said, I will pray for you right now. So I pray for her. That afternoon the check arrives, and to this day, she doesn't know it was us. I hope she.
- [35:42]
A
She does now.
- [35:42]
B
I hope she doesn't listen to your program. But, but here's my point. God could have prevented that car from being in an accident. He could have done that. Right. But then Leslie and I wouldn't know the joy of what it's like to be an answer to someone's prayer, to be used by God to answer a prayer. So there's a lot more than just, hey, here's an answer to a prayer. There's other dynamics involved that I think bring. Bring other perspectives to the situation.
- [36:08]
A
It may have been Aquinas who said this. That prayer gives us the dignity of causality.
- [36:12]
B
Yeah.
- [36:13]
A
You know, we have the ability to affect time and eternity.
- [36:17]
B
Yeah.
- [36:18]
A
And God is going to get his will done through our free will. And also he can take over if he needs to, but he gives us the dignity of causality. So that allows us to make a difference for time and time eternity. The movie is this week, ladies and gentlemen, the Case for Miracles movie. That's where you need to go to get more on this. We're coming up to Christmas. Bring somebody to a movie with you that could change their life forever. Miracles do occur. The greatest miracle, one of the greatest, the Incarnation. We're back in two minutes. Don't go anywhere. Ladies and gentlemen. You want to get people a meaningful gift this year, you could get the Case for Christmas. It's right behind Lee right now. If you're watching on YouTube, you can see that little book right there. It is inexpensive. Put it in a stocking of all the people in your family. It's a great little book. Also want to mention you can give people the gift of a complete course because we've got some courses coming up in the new year. Two courses on logic, one for adults, one for kids. Train youn Brain. Shanda Fulbright will be the main instructor, but I'll be involved, too. So there's a sixth to eighth grade version and an adult version. And then I'm going to be teaching why I Still don't have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. If you take the premium Version, you'll be with me on several occasions for live Q and A zoom sessions. That why I Still don't have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist has been updated over the past year and a half or so. So if you want the argument for Christianity from the ground up, take why I Still don't have Enough Faith to Be an atheist. Go to crossexamine.org, click on online courses. You'll see it there. Click on premium version at the top and you can join. I hope you can sign up before it's too late because these courses fill up quite quickly. So go to cross examine.org click on online courses. You will see it there. I'm talking to my friend Lee Strobel, who has a movie coming out this week, December 15th to the 18th. It's called the Case for Miracles Spectacular. New movie. You can bring friends to it, even unbelievers, and they're going to be moved by. By it because these are miracles that have been documented in medical journals. This is not some I heard through somebody this happened. No, this. This has been doc. These miracles have been documented. And just go to the Case for Miracles movie to learn more. See where the movie is in your neighborhood. Haley, let's talk a little bit about Christmas since we're at the Christmas season. What are some of the misconceptions you think people have about Christmas?
- [38:51]
B
Well, you know, there's one Greek word. Depending on how you translate, it kind of changes about how we view the birth of Jesus in a way. You know, Luke says that Jesus was born and laid in the hay of a manger because there was no room for Mary and Joseph in the katalima. That's the Greek word. Well, how do you translate that word? Most people say no room at the inn, and that's how the King James translated it. And so the belief is Mary and Joseph are coming because of the census to Bethlehem. They knock on the door of an inn. The menal innkeeper says, sorry, no room. They go off into a stable. They give birth among the animals, and that's why the baby is placed in a manger. That's probably not the best translation of that word. In fact, in the year 1395, before even the King James, John Wycliffe in his translation translates it as a room. And that's probably the best translation, a guest room. Luke only used it once other time, and in that context, it's a room, not an inn. He knew another Greek word for an inn or a lodge. He uses it in the story of the Good Samaritan, Pandohaion. He doesn't use that word here. And so in the first century, homes were in Bethlehem. One big room divided in two parts. The larger area was a living area for the family. And then there was a couple steps down to a side area, and that's where they brought the animals at night. And there was a manger in there, but there was also a manger in the living area, because sometimes the animals, who are kind of like pets, would come up the stairs and hang out in the living area. Well, some of the wealthier people had a katalima, which is a guest room, which had a separate entrance. What apparently happened is Mary and Joseph arrive in Bethlehem. They knock on the door of a relative and say, hey, you got room for us? Because we're here for the census. And they say, sorry, we have so many people coming for the census. There's no room in the guest room, but you can stay in the family area. And so most likely Mary gave birth in the family area, and maybe some of the animals did come up the stairs to see what the commotion was all about, and the baby is born and placed in the hay of a manger there in the family area. That's probably the best translation. In fact, if you go to the new international version, which may be the new. The most popular one in America today, it doesn't translate it as inn. There's no inn there. It's guest room. And we don't even know there was an inn. Bethlehem was a smaller town, 500 people. It wasn't on major crossroads. Plus the fact it would be socially almost impossible for an innkeeper to turn away a pregnant Jewish woman. In the first century, the level of hospitality was so high, he would be run out of town, he'd be ostracized, he'd be put out of business. He can't do that. So most likely that's what actually took place, that there was no real inn, there was no real innkeeper. And even John wycliffe back in 1395 got the translation right.
- [41:50]
A
So why did Jesus have to come, though, Lee? What's the point of coming into this world?
- [41:56]
B
Yeah. You know, it's interesting, the birth of Jesus, what makes that most significant is the death of Jesus. He came to die. Yes. He lived the perfect life and showed us how to do that. You read the Beatitudes in the Sermon on the Mount. Is beautiful expression of how we should live our lives. But the ultimate mission of Jesus, as we see in Philippians chapter two, the kenosis, the Incarnation, how he gave up the perks of heaven. He came into this world and died even a horrible death of crucifixion. Why? Cause he is fully God now and fully man. And he dies to pay the penalty we deserve for the sins that we've committed. So he can offer forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift of his grace. That was the mission that he was on. So we have the miracle of the Incarnation at Christmas, and then the miracle of the Resurrection, where he conquers the grave and proves that he is who he claimed to be, the unique son of God, and that we can trust him and be forgiven by him, receive his free gift of grace.
- [42:55]
A
The Case for Christmas book gets into that in detail.
- [42:58]
B
Yeah.
- [42:58]
A
Although I know there's some skeptics out there, Lee will say, oh, come on, Christmas is just like a pagan holiday. They tried to put it on the winter solst and all this. What's your response to that?
- [43:08]
B
Yeah, December 25th came about, really. Christians didn't celebrate birthdays back in the first century. I didn't see the reason. They, they made fun of the Romans for celebrating birthdays. And then about 150 years later, they said, hey, when was Jesus born? Because it's not in the Bible. It doesn't say the day he was born. And so they used to have a strong connection between creation and redemption. And there was a belief among early Christians that the Messiah would be conceived on the same calendar day that he later dies. And so in the year 200, Tertullian, who was a great Christian leader, said, well, I'm going to figure out the day Jesus died. So based on the Roman calendar of the day, he determined that Jesus died on March 25th. Well, if he died on March 25th, they believe he would have been conceived on March 25th. Fast forward nine months of gestation and he got December 25th. In fact, even sexist Julius Africanus, the early Christian historian, back and around the time of Tertullian did a chronology of Christianity and said that Jesus was conceived on March 25. How did he know? I mean, there's no way he could have known except Tertullian had told me, you know, he died on that day. So they believe he would have been conceived on that day as well.
- [44:26]
A
I've had the great Bill Federer on the program several times, and he's an amazing historian, and I can't recreate his argument, but apparently due to the fact that there were very good records kept on who the high priest was at a certain time and when the temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. people can do all sorts of calculations and figure out that December 25th was the probable birthday of Jesus, there are many people.
- [44:54]
B
Believe that was it. Now, there were some early historians and Christian scholars that went off to Egypt and tried to figure out what they. They determined it was May 20th because they said the shepherds were in the fields, the sheep are giving birth, it would have been in May. And so that's the day they came up. Doesn't really matter in the end end, but it's interesting and there are many people who believe. Yeah, that was the date.
- [45:18]
A
By the way, our friend Wes Huff, the apologist, has a great section on his website on infographics and we'll put it in the show notes. He has one about Christmas is not a pagan holiday. It's just a one page deal where he covers some of the claims.
- [45:34]
B
He does a good job with that.
- [45:35]
A
Yeah. So if you want kind of a one page on it, we'll put that in the show notes as well. Christmas is not a pagan holiday. Give us one more. One more? Yeah, from the movie.
- [45:47]
B
Oh, from the movie. Yeah. Can you think of that? Sure. We have a case of a baby that dies. It's a case in Latin America. The mother and father, of course, are devastated. She prays to God and say, God, if you. If help and what do you I will dedicate this child will be dedicated to you if you would just let him live. And he doesn't live. He dies a couple of days later. And of course they're devastated. And the body is in the morgue for a couple of days and it's wrapped up and stuff. And a guy is mopping the floor of the morgue, you know, a custodian. And he hears a cry from where the dead bodies are and he goes in and he unwraps this baby who's perfectly alive, perfectly normal. And that child not only grows up perfectly healthy, they would check him every year because they want to make sure this is bizarre. Is he okay? And every year he'd have to go to the doctor, be checked up. Finally the doctor said, hey, you knocked on the door of heaven and heaven said, it's not your time yet. And interestingly, he did end up having a life dedicated to God. Today he is one of the leading worship leaders in Latin America. And here's a piece of trivia for people to go to the movie. In the movie you'll see the custodian who's cleaning the floors in real life. That's the guy.
- [47:06]
A
Oh really?
- [47:06]
B
Yep. That was the guy who was the baby in the morgue. He's playing the role of the custodian. I didn't even know that until the other day. And the director told me, he said, you know who that is? I said, no, that's him. Oh wow.
- [47:19]
A
It's to see the movie Friends and you're going to want to see it. The case for miracles.movie on the Internet movie. And as they say, if you put your, your zip code in, you can see where it's going to be playing this week, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday night, December 15th to the 18th. As Lee said, this is a great movie for not just Christians, but non Christians who are just open to seeing verified evidence of miracles occurring today or occurring in the modern age. And you've got so much documentation for this, Lee. I pray it makes a big impact this holiday season.
- [48:03]
B
I hope so.
- [48:04]
A
Thanks for what you're doing. Tell people where they can follow you.
- [48:08]
B
Lee yeah, least trouble.com I'm real active on X or Twitter so if you follow me, I'll try to follow you back. Met so many good people on Twitter and become friends over the years, so. But leestrobel.com is my website.
- [48:21]
A
Leestrobel.com don't forget the Case for Miracles movie this week. And the book, by the way, is out there as well. And if you look behind Lee, the, the, the newer book that he just wrote is Seeing the Supernatural. We had Leon for that not long ago. Great stuff on near death experiences and death visions and miracles. He always puts out great stuff. So check him out. And check out the movie. Merry Christmas. We're coming up to it, ladies and gentlemen. Tell people about Jesus. Get Lee's other little book there, the Case for Christmas. You can get it at Hobby Lobby for free. That's amazing. All right, friends, great being with you. Hope to see you here next time.
- [49:03]
B
God bless.
- [49:07]
A
Dr. Frank Turek is bringing powerful evidence for God to campuses like UC Berkeley, the University of Georgia and Ohio State, reaching thousands in person and millions online. But each event now requires costly security. Your gift helps the light of truth pierce the darkness. Give today@crossexamined.org.