← I Don't Have Enough FAITH to Be an ATHEIST
I Don't Have Enough FAITH to Be an ATHEIST
From Militant Atheist to Christian Filmmaker with Michael Ray Lewis PLUS Conspiracy Theory Updates
00:43:37
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- [00:03]
Frank Turek
Ladies and gentlemen, I have a conspiracy update before we get to our main topic for today, which is an amazing brand new apologetics film you're going to want to see.
- [00:17]
Colin
But before I get there, just to.
- [00:19]
Frank Turek
Deal with some more of the questions regarding Charlie Kirk and the conspiracy theories that are out there, one thing I want to point out that people don't seem to understand is not every false statement is a lie. People think that if you say something false, you're automatically lying. That's a fallacy in itself. Let me deal with one of them that's out there right after the event. When I did the first podcast five or so days after Charlie was murdered, I said that we got drone footage prior to the event, on our way in, about an hour before we got in. And it showed that right there on Charlie's phone, that there were so many people there at the university an hour before we were even supposed to start.
- [01:11]
Colin
And it looked like it was coming from above. It looked like drone footage.
- [01:15]
Frank Turek
And so I said, hey, it was drone footage. And it showed how crowded it was an hour out. Well, Brian Harpool, who was on Sean Ryan's podcast, said there were no drones up. So people on the Internet have been.
- [01:28]
Colin
Saying, well, Frank, you said it was drone footage. And Brian, the head of security, who.
- [01:32]
Frank Turek
By the way, was in the car with me and Rick and Justin and Dan bringing Charlie to the hospital. Brian was the head of security that day. In any event, people are saying, is.
- [01:47]
Colin
Brian telling the truth or are you telling the truth? Either way, someone's lying.
- [01:53]
Frank Turek
That's false. Why?
- [01:55]
Colin
Well, it is contradictory, but it doesn't.
- [01:57]
Frank Turek
Mean one of us was lying.
- [01:59]
Colin
Brian was not aware of any drones.
- [02:01]
Frank Turek
Being up, and he said it was against, I guess, the university policy to have drones up during the event.
- [02:10]
Colin
It might have been that the advanced.
- [02:12]
Frank Turek
Team, the PR team, put a drone.
- [02:14]
Colin
Up before the event in order to get some footage. That's a possibility. I don't know if that's the case or not. But what we did not understand at the time, didn't even think of at the time, was that the overhang that.
- [02:31]
Frank Turek
Was above us, Charlie, was down in an amphitheater.
- [02:34]
Colin
And as you, as you came sort of through this opening under a building, the tent was right under there and right above us. People were literally above us, I don't know, a couple of stories on a building or on some kind of overhang above us. It could have been that one of the team members was up there on his or her iPhone and took video from above because there were People standing up there. I thought it was drone footage. It may not have been drone footage. It may have just been somebody with their iPhone way above the whole venue, because that's the way the venue was. This is why, by the way, when we got that footage from above and kind of panned around, this is when I said to Charlie, hey, Charlie, I.
- [03:28]
Frank Turek
Don'T like this place.
- [03:29]
Colin
It has too many buildings. I didn't realize one of the buildings. I don't know if it was a.
- [03:34]
Frank Turek
Building itself or just kind of a.
- [03:35]
Colin
Walkway causeway up there was right above us. So either it was an early drone or. Or it was just somebody up on that causeway or up on that walkway, whatever it was above us, that was taking video from above. So contradictory statements, they do not mean that someone's lying. It could have just mean that one person was ignorant. That would have been me. I thought it was a drone angle. It may not have been a drone angle. It may have just been somebody standing way up high. All right, so that update, the other update, we'll put a little video from Mikey McCoy in the show notes about his father saying that Mikey was covered in blood. That was just a misunderstanding. And Mikey will explain in this video that we will put in the show notes. He was on the Charlie Kirk show last week where he basically pointed out that he had said Charlie had been shot. I don't remember the exact details, but since there was so much blood and there was. Let me just. Let me just put it this way without being too graphic. The three of us in the back seat had to change our clothes when we got to the hospital.
- [04:49]
Frank Turek
Okay?
- [04:52]
Colin
We couldn't. We couldn't even stop the bleeding. We had to change our clothes. Mikey knew that blood was everywhere. And what he said to his father, his father may have just misunderstood. Not that he was covered in blood, but many were. And so every false statement is not necessarily a lie. Just keep that in mind. And also, if people are going to say, like, Candace Owens has come up with all sorts of different possible culprits, you know, Trump, she said Trump may have killed him or Israel may have killed him, or Netanyahu ordered it, or it may have been Mikey was involved, or his. His father, Rob McCoy was involved, or it was the Egyptians were involved or the French were involved. I thought the French, all they did was surrender, but apparently they have been involved, too. Unless you're going to believe that all of those entities somehow coordinated together, which is ludicrous. Unless you're going to believe that most of what she's Saying even if one of them did it, most of what she's saying is false. And if none of them were involved, everything she's saying is false in terms of who did it. I mean, the best evidence we have right now is that Tyler Robinson killed him. That's the best evidence we have now.
- [06:25]
Frank Turek
So if.
- [06:28]
Colin
If you're going to say other people did it when really Tyler Robinson did do it, you're implicating a lot of innocent people for murder, and they had nothing to do with it. This is why Mikey McCoy's getting death threats. That's why I have emails that say, oh, you know, or comments on YouTube, you should repent, or, you never know what could happen to you. This is. This is reckless, ladies and gentlemen. It's fine to ask questions. It's not fine to insinuate people are guilty when you don't have evidence that they are. Anything's possible, but a possibility is not evidence. As I said before, if we. If we had surmised that Candace had. Did it, had done it, that's a possibility, but it's not a possibility with any evidence. You need to have evidence for what you're saying, especially if you're going to implicate people in a murder. So we will see. Unfortunately, the trial is probably not going to be for another year, and the prosecution is checking into all of these conspiracy theories. How do I know? Because I was the subject of one of them.
- [07:36]
Frank Turek
Yeah.
- [07:37]
Colin
The FBI contacted me and said, are.
- [07:38]
Frank Turek
You the guy in the white hat.
- [07:40]
Colin
That was signaling the shooter? Did you really signal the shooter? He goes, I hate to have to.
- [07:44]
Frank Turek
Ask you this, but I have to. I have to check down every lead. And I said, oh, yeah, yeah, I was signaling the shooter.
- [07:49]
Colin
I was telling him to steal second base. It's the dumbest thing in the world.
- [07:52]
Frank Turek
Okay?
- [07:53]
Colin
Nobody. Nobody needs to tell a shooter where Charlie Kirk is. He's the only guy under the tent with the microphone. It made absolutely no sense. They are checking into conspiracy theories.
- [08:04]
Frank Turek
Why?
- [08:04]
Colin
Because the defense at trial is going, it is going to say, did you.
- [08:09]
Frank Turek
Check into the second shooter? Did you check into this? Did you check into that? And the prosecution's going to have to say, yes. And we found it went nowhere. All right? So the prosecution is not going to.
- [08:20]
Colin
Tell you what they're doing, because if they tell you what they're doing, they're.
- [08:23]
Frank Turek
Going to defeat their purpose, which is to convict the real killer.
- [08:28]
Colin
If they tell you, hey, we're looking for a second shooter, and then somebody comes forward and says, oh, I saw the second shooter. They don't know if that guy really saw the second shooter or he just heard you were looking for a second shooter and so he said, I'm the second shooter. I heard the second shooter or I saw the second shooter. He's just trying to make a name for himself. So they can't reveal what they're doing. They also don't want to taint the jury pool. They also don't want to tip off the defense. Their job is to convict the real killer. So we're just going to have to be patient rather than spend all these different conspiracy theories, all these different possibilities without evidence.
- [09:08]
Frank Turek
Without evidence.
- [09:11]
Colin
Now, when it comes to evidence, we have a lot of evidence that Christianity is indeed true. Not just a possibility. Not just a possibility. Like people always say, well, you know, it's possible that the disciples stole the body. It's possible, but we don't have any evidence for it and it makes no sense. It's possible aliens took his body. Yeah, that's possible, but we don't have.
- [09:33]
Frank Turek
Any evidence for it.
- [09:34]
Colin
We need evidence if we're going to be secure in what we believe. How did a militant atheist who didn't think God existed or Christianity was true, how did this militant atheist become a Christian? And put together a brilliant new film that in about 90 minutes, shows you the breadth of the evidence for Christianity, starting with, does truth exist through the evidence for God, particularly the scientific evidence, and then right up to Jesus dying and rising from the dead. Well, my guest today is filmmaker Michael Ray Lewis, who has just completed, after many years of work, a brand new.
- [10:22]
Frank Turek
Film called Universe Design.
- [10:25]
Colin
And it certainly deserves a round of applause, ladies and gentlemen, as does he. Here he is, the great Michael Ray Lewis.
- [10:34]
Frank Turek
This is the first.
- [10:35]
Colin
Okay, crowd enough. The first film that you've ever directed. Michael, thanks for coming on the show.
- [10:41]
Frank Turek
And thanks for doing this film.
- [10:42]
Michael Ray Lewis
Thank you for giving me the opportunity, Frank. I'm glad to talk to you about it.
- [10:45]
Frank Turek
Oh, absolutely.
- [10:46]
Colin
Let's start before we get into the.
- [10:48]
Frank Turek
Film and show the trailer here.
- [10:50]
Colin
Let's start with your history. You were a filmmaker. You were not brought up necessarily in a Christian home. You were brought up in a home where people believed in God, but they never really talked about God.
- [11:02]
Frank Turek
Right, that's right.
- [11:03]
Colin
You became an atheist in your 20s, a pretty militant atheist. Let's first talk about how you became.
- [11:09]
Frank Turek
A Christian out of that sort of.
- [11:12]
Colin
New atheist, militant atheist.
- [11:16]
Michael Ray Lewis
Background. Well, I was pretty aggressive towards Christians at first because the only real interactions I had with Christians were the ones that were on the street corners yelling at me that I'm going to hell. And so I didn't want anything to do with that belief system. On top of the fact that I just didn't think it was true. I didn't think there was any good evidence for it, mainly because no one ever gave me good reasons to believe it. And so later on in life, I ended up getting married and my wife, to kind of put it in context, she did grow up in the church, but she was pulled away by friends and. And just experiences in life. And then on top of that, I met her, which pulled her even further away from Jesus. And after we were married, she came to me and she. She said, I feel like Jesus is calling me back. And I was, like, crushed by those words because I'm like, I don't want to deal with any of this stuff. But you know what? Fine. I'll go to church with you and I'll see what all this is about. And I remember I walk into the church and I'm looking around, I'm like, all right, these aren't necessarily the people on the street corners yelling at me. I get it. It gives them something to hope in. It's just not true. Well, eventually, I started to get kind of tired of going, and so I figured, well, all I need to do is just show her that it's not true. I had watched documentaries by Bill Maher. I had watched a documentary called Zeitgeist, which showed that there was no good reason to believe any of this, that Jesus was just a copy of ancient myths. And so I figured if I show her all this, I could persuade heard that it was all nonsense.
- [12:43]
Frank Turek
And we know if it's a documentary on the Internet, it absolutely has to be true.
- [12:47]
Michael Ray Lewis
Exactly.
- [12:47]
Frank Turek
We know that. Okay.
- [12:48]
Michael Ray Lewis
Right. And that's what's crazy, too, is I think looking back at it now, I can see that I was not even looking as deep as I needed to look. I was.
- [12:58]
Frank Turek
That's.
- [12:59]
Michael Ray Lewis
That was the problem. However, I was going to take a second look at it, mainly because during this whole process, when she was talking to me, and I was going to try to show her that it wasn't real, a YouTube video popped up on my feed, and it was by Hugh Ross, and it was a video of Hugh Ross going over his perspective of the creation days. And what's funny is my wife had actually purchased a Bible for me. And I remember I opened it, I went through, like, the first few pages of Genesis, said, this is nonsense, pushed it away. When I saw that video, it piqued my curiosity. And I was like, you know what? Maybe there is something to this. Maybe I do need to take a second look. And that started a three year journey of me just diving into books from you, books from Hugh Ross, books from William Lane Craig. I remember the first book I read was Timothy Keller's Reasons for God. And I just started diving into it, and it was one thing after another. The evidence was just compiling one thing on top of another. And at the end of the three years, I was still pretty convinced. I mean, I was still resistant towards the idea. And I had questions about Scripture. And so she said, you know what? I don't. I don't know how to answer all the questions that you have, but I do have a friend of the family who's a theologian. And so I wrote down five pages full of questions. I'm just ready to hammer this guy with. And I remember I sat down with him, asked him all the questions. He answered every single question I had, and he did it using scripture. And then he looks at me and he says, so do you think it's actually true? And keep in mind, this is three years of me looking in. I had. I had no more objections. And I said, you know, I think I do. But it didn't really sink in until the drive home. On the way home, I thought to myself, I actually think this is true. And then I realized that this entire time, it wasn't the evidence that was holding me back, but it was the fact that I didn't want it to be true. And when I realized that, I thought to myself, that's not a good reason. And I threw my hands up, I said, all right, Jesus, what's next? Gave my life to Christ, and since then have come to realize there are so many believers out there that don't know how to defend the faith. I kind of dedicated my life to helping believers equip them to have conversations and helping people to become aware of apologetics, as most Christians aren't even aware of, that there's an entire field of study dedicated to the evidence. And so that's really the driving force behind why I felt the need to make this film.
- [15:30]
Frank Turek
Now, why. Why did you not want Christianity to be true at the time?
- [15:35]
Michael Ray Lewis
At the time, the reason I would tell you is because I can't believe in a God who would send me to an eternal punishment just because I have a little bit of trouble believing in Him. That was the reason I would tell you at the time. Looking back at it today, I think it was More so the fact that I didn't want to release that control. I felt like I had control of my life. And if I admitted that this was true, that meant I had no control of my life. And I think that's really what was holding me back from giving my life to Christ. And on top of that, I didn't have a deep grasp of the Gospel. I mean, I had heard the language repent and believe, but it didn't really sink in until after I threw my hands up and said, all right, Jesus, what's next? Then I went into Scripture, and then I really started to understand the Gospel, understand that Jesus wasn't sending me anywhere. I was sending myself there. And he was standing right in front of me with his hand open, and all I had to do was take it.
- [16:32]
Frank Turek
Yeah, it's kind of a false belief that people have. They think they go to hell because they don't believe in Jesus. No, they go to hell because they've sinned, not because they don't believe in that. I mean, that's just another sin, not believing in Jesus. But there's plenty of others that'll get you to hell.
- [16:45]
Colin
It's like saying, I died because I.
- [16:47]
Frank Turek
Didn'T go to the doctor.
- [16:48]
Colin
No, you died because you had a disease. Maybe you could have prevented death by.
- [16:52]
Frank Turek
Going to the doctor, but the reason that you die is because you have a disease, not because you don't go to the doctor. Now, of course, the great doctor, the great physician, is Jesus. He can cure us of all that for eternity. But, yeah, people have all these misunderstandings, and there's also kind of this moral.
- [17:08]
Colin
Outrage, like, how dare you send me.
- [17:10]
Frank Turek
To hell because I don't believe in you? As if that's immoral.
- [17:14]
Michael Ray Lewis
Right, Exactly.
- [17:15]
Colin
You know, what moral standard are you.
- [17:17]
Frank Turek
Using to say that that would be immoral?
- [17:19]
Michael Ray Lewis
But that was. That was the mindset that I was in. And. But it mostly had to do with the fact that I didn't understand it. Okay, it didn't comprehend to me. But the further I dug into it, the more I became to understand the gravity of the Gospel. And I'm always curious about my conversion, too, because that moment in the car, that was the moment where it was almost like a fog left my mind and I could finally see reality for the way that it actually. But I didn't fully understand the Gospel until a few days later when I really started to read it and come to understand it. So the Holy Spirit was doing something in that moment in the car, even prior to me fully grasping the Message of the gospel.
- [18:03]
Frank Turek
Yes. And it's similar to what happened to C.S. lewis. Apparently he was talking to Tolkien one day, if I remember the story right. And, you know, when he got in, I think he was on a motorcycle with a sidecar with his brother. And he said, you know, when I. When I got in the sidecar, I wasn't a Christian. And we went on this drive and when I got to where we were going, I was kind of sounds like similar thing. You know, it's just like it sunk in somehow.
- [18:33]
Michael Ray Lewis
Yeah.
- [18:34]
Frank Turek
The Holy Spirit was after me and I finally yielded to. Exactly.
- [18:39]
Colin
So what was some of the evidence.
- [18:40]
Frank Turek
That while you were on this journey that caused you to say, you know, this might really be true? What was some of it?
- [18:48]
Michael Ray Lewis
I think the fine tuning played a big part.
- [18:50]
Frank Turek
Okay.
- [18:51]
Michael Ray Lewis
Because I was always into universe and space and astronomy. And so when I, when I really started, it was the book that I read by Hugh Ross, why the Universe is the Way that it Is. And I remember thinking, like, why. How are we here? Like, it doesn't. It just doesn't make sense given the laws of physics. Like, we shouldn't be here.
- [19:11]
Frank Turek
Right.
- [19:11]
Michael Ray Lewis
And yet not only here we are, but here we are able to ask the question, why are we here? And so the fine tuning argument was a big one. And then J. Warner Wallace with Cold Case Christianity was a big influence as well, because the, the evidence surrounding the resurrection was, Was. Was huge, especially the impact of Jesus. That was a big factor for me as well. But honestly, I probably couldn't point to one particular thing. It was a cumulative case. I mean, it was. It was the fact that, like, everywhere I went, it was all pointing one direction. No matter what form of evidence I'm looking at, it's all pointing in one direction as Christianity being the best explanation. Because I was trying to look at other worldviews and other belief systems, other religions, and nothing was holding up. Nothing was, was near as. As strong of a case as Christianity. And so I think it was that cumulative case that really started to kind of weigh in on me. And I think that's also why it took me three years.
- [20:10]
Frank Turek
What year did you become a Christian?
- [20:12]
Michael Ray Lewis
It was2016. 2016. My journey started in 2013.
- [20:20]
Frank Turek
Now, you are a filmmaker and you worked on other films, horror films and others. And what really caused you to say, I want to put together an apologetic documentary with some prominent apologists and make it. I mean, this is cinema quality. What you've done here. At what point did you decide to do that? And why did you use $150,000 of your own money to do it.
- [20:50]
Michael Ray Lewis
Well, I was already making films prior to giving my life to Christ. I didn't, hadn't been a director yet. I'd always been like a dp, which is the guy behind the camera, or I'd be the editor for the project. And even after I gave my life to Christ, I continued to make. And you're right, most of them were horror films. And I just felt that I need to do something more. And actually prior to giving my life to Christ, I was already preparing a script for my first horror film as a director. But after I gave my life to Christ, I realized I, I don't need to take that path. And I'm in my head, I'm going, how do you make a Christian horror film? And so like all these things are going through my mind. And then I was like, well, I don't want to make a Christian film because those are terrible. And so my mindset was, what, what could I do? And my wife was the one who brought it up and she said, why don't you do a documentary based on the evidence that convinced you it was true? And I said, I'm going to do that. And so I planned it to where I was just going to find a bunch of people who used to be atheists, give their testimony, maybe share some of the evidence and put together a little documentary. And she said, no, why don't you actually email the people that of the books that you read? And it was actually, you were the first one that I emailed, Frank, and you responded and said yes. And that's when I really started to get excited because then right after that everyone else, one after another, the emails were coming in and everyone was saying yes, yes. I was buying plane tickets and flying out. Not honestly not even having a strange story in mind. I just knew that I was going to ask you guys all the difficult questions I had as an atheist. And so that's what I did. I, I laid out everything, went through the, the questions. At the end of all this, I ended up with 36 hours of content.
- [22:30]
Frank Turek
Wow.
- [22:31]
Michael Ray Lewis
That I had to condense down to an hour and 20 minute movie. Have it make sense not be too information heavy to lose people, but have enough information to build a compelling case. And so I, in the process of editing, I made a dedicated, I told myself, I said, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to do what Greg Cole says. I'm going to try to just plant a seed. I need to cover the evidence and move on so that I can keep people's interest but pique their curiosity enough to challenge them and go to. So that they'll know that they need to take a second look at all of this. And yeah, I, I did a donation pitch where I tried to raise donations for it. I ended up raising, it was $120,000 I raised and then $30,000 I put in of my own money. And then it was a passion project. So it's partly why it took me four years to make the film because I'm over here filming it myself, editing it myself on top of trying to make money for the family and support the family. And so. But I'm, I'm extremely thankful for, for the whole process. And just what's come out of it is something amazing and I'm excited for people to see it.
- [23:36]
Frank Turek
Well, it's extremely well done. My wife and I watched it last night. Let me give you a rundown of the people in the film other than myself. You have Jay Wallace, Stephen Meyer, Hugh Ross, Greg Kokel, Lisa Childers, Sean McDowell, Alan Parr, Mike Lacona, Fuzz Rana, Jeff Zwiering, Travis Dickinson, Eric Hernandez, Lance Waldy, Mary Jo Sharp and Larry Evans. So you have several prominent apologists in this particular new movie and it's called Universe Designed, ladies and gentlemen. In fact, why don't we take a look at the trailer right now so.
- [24:12]
Colin
You can see the quality of what's going on here?
- [24:15]
Frank Turek
It is.
- [24:18]
Stephen Meyer
Any person who is truly a thinking person needs to ask themselves the question why is there something rather than nothing?
- [24:28]
Jay Wallace
Scientists believe there's an intelligible answer to that meaning there is a reason for the way things are. What's the that reason?
- [24:42]
Colin
Why do I exist? Why do you exist? Why does the universe exist?
- [24:51]
Stephen Meyer
Physicists have discovered fundamental constants and parameters and characteristics that define the universe have to assume exacting precise values.
- [25:01]
Colin
If you were to change any one of them, there would either be no.
- [25:03]
Frank Turek
Universe or no universe that could support.
- [25:06]
Stephen Meyer
Our galaxy, our star, our planetary system.
- [25:09]
Frank Turek
The Earth, the moon.
- [25:10]
Colin
Whatever size scale you choose to look at. You see an overwhelming experimental and observational case that there is of being out there.
- [25:18]
Stephen Meyer
Fine tuning, intervening, immersing myself in the study of biochemical systems, I became deeply impressed with the ingenuity and the elegance and the sophistication of those systems.
- [25:30]
Colin
The living cell is chock full of miniature machines that doesn't just rival but it vastly exceeds our own high tech digital technology.
- [25:38]
Stephen Meyer
There must be a creator that's behind life itself.
- [25:43]
Lisa Childers
If some kind of A God existed, he would want to reveal himself, at least in some way. We would have to look at all of the different ways people have understood him to do that.
- [25:52]
Michael Ray Lewis
I want to know is there any evidence backing any one of them up as you need uniquely being true?
- [25:59]
Jay Wallace
This guy shows up on the scene and does something remarkable. Whatever it is, he did split history.
- [26:06]
Michael Ray Lewis
He's on the pages of the Quran, on the pages of Bahaullah, sacred writings.
- [26:09]
Jay Wallace
On the pages of Buddhism, Hinduism, Krishna, New Age.
- [26:12]
Frank Turek
These Romans were skilled in crucifixion. They knew how to make sure that someone was completely dead.
- [26:20]
Stephen Meyer
Many of Jesus disciples had experienced experiences that Jesus had risen from the dead.
- [26:25]
Michael Ray Lewis
What did they gain? Well, they were beaten, tortured, persecuted, beheaded, stone whipped and running for their lives. We really have to put our beliefs to the fire.
- [26:35]
Jay Wallace
The reason we believe God is true is because he's the best explanation for the way things are.
- [26:45]
Lisa Childers
There are truths that can be known and I want to know what they are.
- [26:59]
Frank Turek
Universe designed by my guest Michael Ray Lewis. Four years in the making. Michael, it had to be difficult narrowing down 36 hours to about 90 minutes. But I think you did so very well, particularly in the order in which you presented the evidence. It's similar to the order we take in. I don't have enough faith to be an atheist. You start with truth, you move on to God, talk a little bit about miracles and then you're in the New Testament and Jesus rising from the dead. So can you just kind of give an overview with our audience of how you arranged this evidence and what are each of the sections that you take people through.
- [27:41]
Michael Ray Lewis
So I wanted to structure it in such a way that if a non believer was watching it, they wouldn't shut it off instantly.
- [27:49]
Frank Turek
I'd certainly not going to do that. It's very well done. They're going to be, whoa, right.
- [27:54]
Michael Ray Lewis
And I wanted to do it in such a way that it's kind of like it's a softer approach. It's very similar to your book. And the idea behind it is the fact that like you have to, you have to get someone there. If you start saying the repent and believe language right off the bat, to me you're no better than the people in the street corners. And people have heard that language all the time and so their minds will instantly shut off and stop listening. And so I wanted to structure it in a way that kind of gradually gets you there. And so we cover does truth exist? We shift gears to like big questions about the universe. What can we know about the universe? Then we shift into more the cosmological argument. So the origins of the universe. Where did the universe come from? I take you through the fine tuning. We cover the life and the problems with evolution or macro evolution. And then we shift gears to, well, if this is all true, then how do we know it's Christianity? Then we'll shift gears to the reliability of scripture. Then we kind of guide you through the evidence surrounding the resurrection and the impact of Jesus, ultimately dealing with the problem of evil and then delivering the gospel message. And I was really explicit when I was making the film because I've seen so many Christian films out there that are just not explicit. They're more family friendly films. So they don't. They're not explicit about who Jesus claimed to be. They're not explicit, some of them not even about the gospel. And so I wanted to make sure that I provided a film that does take you all the way. And so even though it's a lot of information to pack in, you're right. Cutting it down from 36 hours was very difficult because there were so many good arguments. I wanted to include that. I just didn't have the time to include it. One, because of budget, because to make a two hour movie would have been a lot more. But two, because I want to keep their curio. I want to keep people's interest. I want to keep people the story flowing and be able to hit the topics compelling enough, but not to hit them so hard that people's eyes start to glaze over and then they start to lose interest.
- [30:05]
Frank Turek
It's not preachy at all. It's not preachy. It's documentary format.
- [30:09]
Colin
You don't even have a narrator.
- [30:10]
Frank Turek
It's narrated by the people who are speaking and you just put them in a sequential logical order so that people can see where you're going. The only thing you have in there that kind of directs the audience is.
- [30:24]
Colin
Every once in a while you put.
- [30:25]
Frank Turek
A screen up and it'll say something like design or origin or something like that. Right, right. So yeah, it's really well done in that regard. And it's airing now.
- [30:36]
Colin
Where, where does it begin to air.
- [30:38]
Frank Turek
And where can people see it?
- [30:40]
Michael Ray Lewis
Any major streaming platform where you can rent movies. So Amazon Fandango, Apple tv, Google tv, any platforms like that, you'll be able to go on and either rent or purchase it.
- [30:53]
Frank Turek
Okay.
- [30:54]
Michael Ray Lewis
And December 13th is the day that it's set to release.
- [30:58]
Frank Turek
So December 13th, universe design friends. Over the Christmas holidays, you'll probably have a lot of family time and you know, you could watch a lot of football. I get that you can have family time that way, but why not take your family through this beautifully done documentary that will keep them interested. It's visually appealing. It's also logically appealing and it covers some of the big questions in life. Again, it's called Universe Design by Michael Ray Lewis. Let me ask you this, Michael, as.
- [31:33]
Colin
You did this, did you come across.
- [31:35]
Frank Turek
Arguments you hadn't heard before and said, wow, I need to include that.
- [31:41]
Michael Ray Lewis
The argument for desire was new to me.
- [31:44]
Frank Turek
Ah, from CS Lewis. You have that in there? Yes.
- [31:46]
Michael Ray Lewis
Okay, that one, that one I hadn't heard. But no, really, I mean, I, I was at this point when I started making the film, I was, I was engulfed in all of this. Still am to this day, constantly looking. And, and it's just, it's amazing too, because even in the process of making this film, just because Hannah has helped me in my confidence in talking to non believers as well. And it just, it excites me now to go and have a conversation with someone. And that's what my hope is, is that it'll, it'll excite the believer to want to go and talk about Jesus. Not only because there's good reasons to believe it, but because we, we love Jesus. We should be out there sharing them and talking about Him. This is what we're commanded to do. And so my hope is that it'll excite people to go and do that. And this is a great evangelistic tool. This is something that if you only have a short time frame with someone to invite them to watch. Maybe a non believer who's in the family or a friend, friend. And this is something you can, or even invite someone to watch. If you only have five minutes with them on the street, invite them to watch this and maybe try to have a conversation with them after they watch it. But on top of that, the whole goal really behind the film is to guide people to resources like Cross Examined. Because even on my website, once you watch the film, you can go to the tab at the top titled resources and I have all of the ministries of all of the scholars in the film. So that way you can dive deeper. Since I can't build a, a full case in an hour and 20 minute movie, I can pique your curiosity and then send you to the resources that are already available.
- [33:22]
Frank Turek
What is your website so people can go there right now? Universed designed.com universedesign.com that's the name of the movie as well. You can find it on Amazon or those other platforms that Michael just mentioned. It's a small fee to rent, maybe just a few dollars. Well worth it. And you'll also help Michael recover his investment, which would be nice. You know, he's doing this as a labor of love to try and show people the truth in a very beautifully done way that the whole family can enjoy again. It's called Universe Designed. I have another question for Michael. Don't go anywhere. I've got to mention one other thing, and that is as we come up to the end of the year, ladies and gentlemen, you know that all that we do is funded by you, the donor. And our security costs on college campuses have tripled since Charlie. Actually, we used to have no security. We used to cost us about an average of $5,000 to go to a college campus. You know, when you take in the flights and the hotels and the videographer's fee and all that, about 5,000. Now it costs about 15,000 to go because we have to have security. Because many of the folks who say they're fighting for inclusion, tolerance, university will not include or not tolerate you if you have a diverse view. And we are getting invitations from everywhere now. We might have 15 to 20 colleges in the next semester. It might might be that high. I don't have the exact number in front of me, but I'm tired. We went through so many right after Charlie died. Obviously now colleges are basically out of session. So we're not going back till February. We're going to get a little bit of rest over here over the holiday season. But in this last month where much of the donations come in, I want to mention we have a $300,000 matching gift. We had some donors come together and say we're going to put together 300,000. So anybody that gives the first 300,000 that is given is going to be matched. So if you want to be part of that, go to crossexamine.org, click on donate. And your donations go 100% to ministry, 0% to buildings. We are completely vertical, virtual. You don't come to us, we come to you. So you're not paying for anyone's desk, you're not paying for anyone's electricity or, or rent. You're paying for people to go out there and do ministry where it's needed most. So thank you for supporting us again. $300,000 matching gift in the month of December or up to the end of the year. And your donations are 100 tax deductible. Thank you for your support. We have A way to give now via check online or you can send a check or you can do it via credit card or PayPal or anything. Just go to crossexamine.org click on donate. Michael, this brand new movie universe design which can be seen almost anywhere online, particularly Amazon. You mentioned Fantango, is that right?
- [36:17]
Michael Ray Lewis
It's Fandango. It used to be Vudu. They've switched the name to Fandango.
- [36:21]
Frank Turek
Fandango and Apple TV as well.
- [36:24]
Michael Ray Lewis
Apple tv.
- [36:25]
Frank Turek
Okay.
- [36:27]
Colin
What do you.
- [36:27]
Frank Turek
What was your hope when you put this film together?
- [36:31]
Colin
Was this aimed at Christians, primarily seekers?
- [36:34]
Frank Turek
You know, skeptics probably won't watch it.
- [36:36]
Colin
But like, what was your hope?
- [36:38]
Michael Ray Lewis
I think my primary audience originally was seekers. People who are open to, to the idea, who are open to hearing the evidence. Even when I was editing that was, that was my mindset through the whole process is that's one of the reasons why I take you in such a slow journey as I do because I, my goal is to reach the nonbeliever. But in the process of making the film, I think I just. The awareness of the fact that so many Christians don't even know about apologetics really started to sink in and I think that's where I now my, my hope is that it'll get in front of believers and churches and, and people to help them become aware of the fact that like there are good reasons for what we believe and you need to be out there sharing it. And there's good resources that people, some people don't aren't even aware of. And so while it is a film geared towards the non believer who's genuinely open to hearing the evidence, it's also a film for the believer not only to just excite you and get you excited about the fact that what we believe is actually true, but to hopefully challenge you so that you'll go and do more research and be able to have conversations with people and get out there on the street talking to people. Whether it's the person standing next to you in line at the convenience store or whether it's a family member, this is in my mind. I struggle with conversations with people because I'm not a small talk guy. I don't know much, I don't know anything about sports. I'm not good with small talk. And so all I really care to talk about is the, the deep questions in life. And so, but it's, I've noticed it's the opposite for a lot of people. For a lot of people it's difficult for them to go there because they're afraid the conversation is going to get awkward. They're afraid they're going to get asked something they don't know. And so rather than being out there talking to people, they just kind of take a step back and just put this barrier between them and non believers or just talk about topics that are, that are of little importance. And so my hope is that it'll, it'll challenge the believer as well.
- [38:46]
Frank Turek
Well, it certainly does. And for people, which is most in the church who don't know anything about apologetics, this is going to be a very nice, attractive introduction to the topic to them. They're going to go, I didn't even.
- [38:59]
Colin
Know this stuff existed.
- [39:00]
Frank Turek
It's amazing how many times people, they'll come to a session and they'll go.
- [39:04]
Colin
Wow, I never knew this existed.
- [39:06]
Frank Turek
Like, where's this been all my life? When in the Bible, it tells us to always have a reason for the hope that you have, give an answer. You know, we're set in defense of the gospel. Come, let us reason together, right? Paul defended the Scriptures and he defended the truth of Christianity wherever he went.
- [39:20]
Colin
I mean, we're commanded to know what we believe and why we believe. And the very thing that we have over other religious worldviews is that our religious worldview can actually be shown to be true through evidence. And yet we're using what everybody else.
- [39:34]
Frank Turek
Uses, just testimonies, right? Muslims can use testimonies, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, anybody can use a testimony.
- [39:40]
Colin
An atheist can say, I feel liberated.
- [39:42]
Frank Turek
Now, I don't have to worry about God anymore. Right?
- [39:44]
Colin
Testimonies might have their, their place in some areas, but the very thing that we have that nobody else has is.
- [39:52]
Frank Turek
The evidence that, that shows that Christianity is indeed, indeed true, that God exists, Jesus rose from the dead and the Bible's telling the truth. And you know, in going through this, it struck me again, Michael, your fine film, the bottom line to the whole thing is that every effect has a cause and everything around us is an effect. There has to be an uncaused first cause. And when we're reasoning from effect to cause, we wind up at the Christian God. And that's what of course, scientists do. They reason from effect to cause. So the law of causality is our friend here, which is the foundation of all science. And so you've done a great job bringing the scientists together, the New Testament scholars together, and other apologists together. Again, friends. It's called universe design. Probably the easiest place to see it is Amazon. But their Apple TV has it and other, other places. Please go and watch the film again. Go to the website universedesign.com Yep, universedesign.com that's right. Now if people want to donate, can they donate to the fact that, I mean it's already made but you're still trying to recover your investment? Can they do that there?
- [41:03]
Michael Ray Lewis
So I did leave the donation link is still available on the website. And keep in mind too, any funds that this film makes, I'm basically going to take and put towards making another one.
- [41:13]
Frank Turek
Okay.
- [41:14]
Michael Ray Lewis
My hope is that I can, I can generate enough income to do a bigger project with a higher budget. Because $150,000 to make a movie is.
- [41:22]
Frank Turek
Nothing when you didn't have to pay any of the actors because.
- [41:26]
Michael Ray Lewis
Right.
- [41:27]
Frank Turek
None of us were actors. We're just.
- [41:29]
Michael Ray Lewis
Right.
- [41:29]
Frank Turek
It's what we do. So you only just had to pay your travel and your own time to do all this?
- [41:36]
Michael Ray Lewis
Exactly. And the highest, the most expensive parts would be the visual effects and the music composition. A lot of the post production work, that's where really most of the funds went.
- [41:46]
Frank Turek
Right.
- [41:47]
Michael Ray Lewis
But it's still even, even with that, the only way I was able to keep it as such as low of a budget as I could is because I did most of the work myself as far as filming and editing. But my hope is that I can, it can make enough money that I can go even bigger. Maybe make a narrative movie about apologetics instead of a documentary, a storyline, maybe a movie about some of the apologists and their, their testimonies and their stories. And so there's so many ideas. But no matter what, I'm going to continue to make apologetic based films because I feel like that's what needs to be out there.
- [42:21]
Frank Turek
Excellent. Universedesign.com Ladies and gentlemen. Also check, check it out on Amazon.
- [42:26]
Colin
And Apple TV beginning December 13th.
- [42:29]
Frank Turek
December 13th. You're going to want to see this film. Trust me. It's very, very well done and you'll enjoy it. You saw the trailer there. You can also see the trailer on YouTube. Also want to mention that on December 8th we will continue our the Bible you Never Knew series 7:30pm It'll be live streamed, Lord willing. It will also be up at Freedom House Church in Cornelius, North Carolina, just north of Charlotte. So join us for another edition. We'll be talking about King David there and how his life prefigured, foreshadowed the life of Jesus. Once you see this stuff, friends, you can't unsee it. The Bible was truly inspired by God. It's hard to deny it once you see all this stuff. And Michael's film will help you see that as well. Again, it's called. It's called Universe Design. Universe Design. UniversalDesign.com Michael, thanks so much.
- [43:25]
Michael Ray Lewis
Thank you for having me, Frank.
- [43:26]
Frank Turek
All right, that's Michael Ray Lewis, ladies and gentlemen. Check him out. Universedesign.com and Lord Willing, we will see you here again next week. God bless.