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I Don't Have Enough FAITH to Be an ATHEIST
How to Debate 20 Progressive Christians at Once with Allie Beth Stuckey
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- [00:03]
Frank Turek
Ladies and gentlemen, every. Virtually every book in the New Testament in some way talks about false teachers. And the Apostle Paul, speaking about false teachers in Second Corinthians 10, says this to the people he's writing to. He says, I beg you that when I come, I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be towards some people who think that we live by the state standards of this world. For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God. And we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. And get this. Here's what he says right after that. And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience once your obedience is complete. Whoa. Paul is coming after the people at Corinth because they're following false teachers. And when he arrives, he's going to punish their acts of disobedience. And, you know, in our culture today, it's almost the opposite. We want to defer to people that are Christians, but not obeying the Scriptures. And our question today is, who is the standard of truth and righteousness? Is it you or God? God. Is it you or the Bible? Is it some progressive teacher who is tickling your ears, or is it Jesus and the apostles? Well, someone who is standing up for the truth and is doing it very well for many years now, but especially in the past couple of months, is my friend Ali Beth Stuckey. Many of you know Ali. She has a great podcast. It's usually in the top five of religion podcasts in the United States. It's called Relatable. And she just did an absolutely fantastic job at something called Jubilee, where you have, like, 20 progressive Christians around you and you have to respond to them on several issues. She did such a great job. So here she is, ladies and gentlemen, the great Ally Bet Stucky. Ally. All right, enough of the crowd.
- [02:17]
Ali Beth Stuckey
You.
- [02:17]
Frank Turek
You did so well in this Jubilee event. It's a great encouragement. First of all, because so many people may not be familiar with your past. How did you get to where you are now, to the point that you're debating 20 progressive Christians at once? What happened?
- [02:37]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Yeah, well, first, I just want to tell people that I called Frank the night before Jubilee, and I was like, we were in Houston, my husband and I were doing something else, and I was like, I got to go backstage, and I Got to talk to Frank, and he gave me some amazing pointers that I was able to apply. So very thankful for that. But if we go back further than that, Raised in a Christian home by Christian conservative parents. Extremely thankful for that. Good Southern Baptist. So we were in church multiple times a week, went to a Christian school. Very grateful for that Blessing, kindergarten through 12th grade. And all of that really did lay such a good foundation for me that by the time I was in high school and I was really interested in the intellectual side of Christianity, that I had such a good basis to understand authors like C.S. lewis and really understand my Bible. It wasn't really until I was about a junior in high school that I started studying those things for myself, getting more into what does this actually mean? Not just memorizing Scripture, not just knowing the Bible stories, not just doing the assignments, but really trying to understand how does the Bible fit together, how do I see the Gospel in everything, in every part of Scripture?
- [03:52]
Progressive Christian Participant
And.
- [03:52]
Ali Beth Stuckey
And that thankfully just grew during college and grew after college, too. And then that kind of combined with my love for culture and politics in the 2016 election. That's when I started blogging and posting videos on Facebook and started writing and eventually writing books and doing my podcast. So that's kind of the big picture of what my past has been and how the Lord has just used various people and things in my life to kind of cultivate this love and hopefully a skill of apologetics and defending the faith.
- [04:25]
Frank Turek
Now, if I remember right, did you go to Furman?
- [04:27]
Ali Beth Stuckey
I did, yes. Greenville, South Carolina.
- [04:30]
Frank Turek
Okay, so you went to Furman, and then did you go to school? Did you go to graduate school? Or you just picked all this up by studying?
- [04:37]
Ali Beth Stuckey
I did it. I. I thought about going to law school. If people watch the Jubilee debate, you can tell that I like to argue, but that's just natural. My parents can tell you that that's been. From a young age, I'm always interested in the why I want to know, and that helps me think through. Through things and be able to defend things. But no, I didn't go to grad school. I started right after I graduated. I went into pr, actually, in Athens, Georgia, and I started leading a Bible study group of girls at the University of Georgia. They were freshmen. And because this was 2014 and then 2015 and 16 politics started coming up, these cultural issues like abortion started coming up, and these girls who called themselves Christians, I realized they didn't really know what to think about any of these issues. In fact, one of the girls was telling me how much she loved Bernie Sanders, and I was able to walk her through, okay, but what does the Bible say about these issues, whether it's abortion or something else? And by the grace of God, she ended up changing her mind and changing her heart on those things. But that was the spark for me, that young woman, that Bible study of, oh, I love this. I love talking about, what does the Bible say about these issues? And trying to persuade someone in the right direction, and then the rest is history.
- [05:54]
Frank Turek
And you got connected with the Blaze tv Glenn Beck, and you started doing a podcast. Now, the podcast is called relatable. It's on YouTube. It's wherever you get podcasts. It's one of the top five religion podcasts in the United States, ladies and gentlemen. And you just had Ali tell us about this before we get into jubilee. Just a few weeks ago, you had about 7,000 women show up at Prestonwood in Dallas for a Share the Arrows conference. I know our mutual friend Alisa Childers was there. Hilary Morgan Ferrer was there. Katie Foust was there. Of course, you lead the whole thing. How did this come up and what did you do at this great conference?
- [06:34]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Yeah, so last year was at Prestonwood, and very thankful that they held our inaugural event. This year it was at a different venue, but it was still in Dallas. Yes, it was still in Dallas. It was about 6,700 and something. That's amazing, because our mutual friend is Charlie. We had. We were probably going to have about 5,000 women there, maybe a little bit under 5,000 women there. That's what it was shaping up. By the time September came around. The event was at the beginning of October. So we were like, this is probably what it's going to stay. And after Charlie was assassinated, you know, you would think that a bunch of people, maybe especially women and moms, would think, okay, never mind. There's no way that I'm going to gather together with a bunch of Christian women. I'm too scared. There's too much. There's too much danger, and I'm just going to stay home. Well, the exact opposite happened. The Lord used that incredibly tragic event in so many ways to ignite faith across the country. But I saw in my small little demographic, women say, whoa, whoa, whoa, who, like, what is this that he died for? Okay. If he was willing to step into the arena, the least I can do is go to this conference and be equipped, and maybe I can go there and I can learn how to defend my faith, and I can learn how to be strong and courageous. Like Charlie was. So we ended up selling thousands and thousands of more tickets after Charlie was assassinated just because people were so inspired to take their faith more seriously. And that was incredible. And you know, a lot of women's conferences really focus on self esteem and they really focus on emotions and telling women how beautiful they are. And you know, there's a place for talking about beauty and all of that. But I'm like, okay, but women need theology. They need the gospel, they need difficult truth. They need to be talked to about sin. They need to be talked to about how to harness our compassion and our empathy for good, not for evil and enabling. And so I knew that inviting Elisa Childers and inviting Katie Faust and all of the incredible speakers that that's exactly what they would get. They would get hard hitting truth about life and godliness and the Bible and motherhood and being a godly wife and all of those things. So that's what Share the Arrows is. And I hope it, I hope it's around for a long time.
- [08:50]
Frank Turek
So this is going to be a yearly event in the fall, okay?
- [08:54]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Yes, probably in the fall. Yes.
- [08:57]
Frank Turek
All right. So keep an eye on Alibeth stuckey.com Ladies and gentlemen, Alibeth stuckey.Com We'll put all that in the show notes. Ali's doing some amazing work. And look, most of the time in Christian homes anyway, the women spend more time with the kids than the father. The mom needs to know theology. The mom needs to know apologetics. The mom needs to prepare these kids for the cruel world, the difficult world, the world that opposes the Christian message. And the mom needs to instill that in kids at a very young age. So Ali's doing some great work there. When we come back from the break, we're going to talk about her amazing performance there at Jubilee and learn a few things on how to debate some of these issues. She went up against progressive Christians. These are people that claim to be Christians but think morality has changed. We'll talk about that right after the break. You're listening to I Don't have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist on the American Family Radio Network and other stations around the country. Don't go anywhere. We're back right after the break. Can you address progressive arguments from so called progressive Christians against the historic Christian faith? Well, my friend Ali Bestucky did so brilliantly. Just, just, it was actually maybe a week after Charlie was murdered, it went on YouTube. However, just a couple of weeks ago has over 2 million views. Let me just read a few of the comments. These are people that watched this debate, and you should watch it. We'll put in in the show notes as well. Ali just demonstrated first Peter 3:15. So well, this woman was prepared to give a defense and did so with gentleness and respect. Next. Ali is the perfect example of how a Christian should be. Love and compassion without compromise. Well done, sister. Or as we say in New Jersey, sister. Next one. I'm not a Christian, but her point about empathy seemed pretty obvious. That empathy can turn into enabling. And that seems pretty obvious, and it's not even a religious issue. For those of you who don't know, Ali wrote the great book a year ago called Toxic Empathy. A couple more. Another one says, I'm not a Christian, but this woman is incredible. So patient, thoughtful, and eloquent. This is hands down the healthiest debate I've seen on Jubilee. The audience was less toxic than most others. And finally, people want to change the Bible to fit their lifestyle. It's sad. The Bible is meant to transform us. Love how Ellie dealt with this Ali. I mean, even the non Christians were going, wow, this lady was prepared. I don't think it could have gone any better. But this is right after Charlie's murder. I know you probably didn't even want to do it. What happened when you got there and what took the pressure off a little bit?
- [11:48]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Yeah, I. I didn't actually. Like, right after Charlie was murdered, that was one of the first things I said, I don't want to do Jubilee. It was the. It was, you know, the thought of being in the center of 20 liberals just wasn't appealing to me. And I wanted to bow out of a lot of things. But one of the last texting conversations that Charlie and I had had was about Jubilee. And he was so excited for me. He said, I've been praying about this moment for you. And he sent me 20 texts in a row just saying, this is what you gotta do. This is how you navigate this. And we had set up a time for a phone call, which of course never ended up happening. But I just knew when I read those texts, I was like, gosh, Charlie would be so disappointed if he knew that I bowed out of this opportunity to defend the faith because of what happened. And so I actually felt even more vigor walking into there. But I was nervous. I'm actually not someone who, like you and a lot of apologists go into the arena a lot. Like, I don't really do a whole lot of debates. I've done a few here and there. I've testified before Congress which was maybe the most similar thing that I've done before, but this was very different. I had watched Charlie's debate, I had watched Ben Shapiro's, I had watched Lyla Rosas. They all did a fantastic job. But their contenders, their opponents were extremely hostile. When I watched Charlie's jubilee, they were downright nasty to him. The things that they were saying, things about his appearance, things about his family, awful things about his kids. And so that's what I was preparing for. That's what I was thinking was going to happen. And when you walk in, first of all, it's very hot, temperature wise, extremely hot. And that adds to the intensity of it. And I don't know if this is a part that's scripted, but all of the opponents are sitting there and they're not smiling. You walk in, they don't make any reaction. They look mad. So I sat down and I'm smiling because my whole strategy before I said, I'm going to out love them at every turn. I am going to out compassion them without compromising on the truth. But the first opponent, if you want to call him that contestant, whatever participant came up, his name was Gilbert. And before he sat down, he extended his hand and he said, I am so sorry. Sorry about your friend Charlie. And let me tell you, I was not expecting that. I actually thought that someone was going to say something snarky about Charlie. That's what I was anticipating. And when he said that, and actually about, I think three others said that too, before they started, that really melted a lot of tension. I already was wanting to be friendly to them to see how that strategy would go. But I just want to take my hat off to a few of those contestants who also decided to take that route. And I just credit the Holy Spirit for that. It was different. The producer during one of our breaks said, this is not like any debate that we've ever had. I was running on very little sleep. It was the day before Charlie's memorial. I was sad, I was tired. So the Holy Spirit just met us there. It was evident. I think even the non Christian producers in the room were like, what is going on? Because most of the time it was just very conversational and natural and nice and the Lord was there, truly.
- [15:02]
Frank Turek
Well, it had to be the Holy Spirit, the same Holy Spirit that motivated Erica the next day to forgive Charlie's killer. So I want to play a video couple minute clip here. You went through several claims. In other words, you said, I'm claiming this, this is my position. And then these progressive Christians would come up and try and disabuse you of your, of your claim and try and say your claim is wrong. One of them was abortion is a grave moral evil. Before I do, I want to ask you, I think this is very wise of you to define your terms of progressivism. Can you give, give that definition?
- [15:40]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Oh, goodness, let me see if I can remember, if I can remember what I said. So I remember trying to look up what are the definitions of progressivism, and I ended up just making up my own.
- [15:51]
Frank Turek
I thought you said something about that morality changes. Am I right about that?
- [15:55]
Tim
Yes, it is.
- [15:57]
Ali Beth Stuckey
It is the idea that truth and morality changes with time and culture. And they all agree, roughly what I said. And all of them agreed, which is amazing. I didn't think that they would agree with it, but they did.
- [16:11]
Frank Turek
All right, let's, let's, let's check out. You had a gentleman, I think his name is Stephen, tried to take you on, on abortion and here it is. Let's take a look. That when the majority of abortions happen, which is in the first six weeks of pregnancy, that fetus has not developed pain receptors. That doesn't happen until maybe at the earliest 10 weeks. Alex.
- [16:33]
Tim
So are you saying that murders, most.
- [16:34]
Frank Turek
Would say 22 to 24 weeks.
- [16:36]
Tim
Is killing only wrong? If someone can feel pain, it's wrong.
- [16:40]
Frank Turek
For you to characterize it as violent.
- [16:42]
Tim
It is violent.
- [16:43]
Frank Turek
Painful when it's not.
- [16:45]
Tim
It is violent. Of course, of course it's violent. Even when you take the abortion pill, you are starving that human being. If you want to call him or her a zygote or a fetus, that's all fine. Those are all stages of development that all of us went through, that all children go through. It is still the killing of a human being. And when you take the abortion pill, the two part abortion pill, you are starving that human being of the nutrients that he or she needs to survive. And that is violent that they can't feel. Are you saying there are a lot of people who are murdered who can't feel it? Are you saying that that murder is justified because they can't feel it?
- [17:16]
Frank Turek
No, we're talking about abortion. We're not talking about something else. We're talking about abortion.
- [17:20]
Tim
But I'm trying to understand your logic. You are saying that abortion is okay because babies don't feel it. So I'm asking you, is killing another innocent person when they don't feel it, is that justified?
- [17:30]
Frank Turek
Abortion is health care for women who need it, who have unwanted pregnancies. 12 year old girls who have been raped, who have experienced incest.
- [17:42]
Tim
Allie, that's less than 1% of all abortions. Can we agree?
- [17:46]
Frank Turek
So most of the abortions happen within the first six weeks.
- [17:48]
Ali Beth Stuckey
If I said to you, and it's.
- [17:49]
Tim
Not painful and violent, if I said to you, okay, fine, we will only allow. Which this is not my position, but if I said we will only allow abortion in those 1% of cases in which it's rape or incest, would you agree with me to ban the rest of abortions?
- [18:03]
Frank Turek
The denial, 99%. The denial of abortion healthcare to women is 100% harmful to the woman who. Absolutely.
- [18:10]
Tim
Abortion is 100% harmful to the child.
- [18:13]
Frank Turek
Care, physical health care.
- [18:14]
Tim
Killing an innocent person is not health care. Can you tell me another situation in which killing a person intentionally is health care?
- [18:22]
Frank Turek
Okay, he's, he, he's flustered here because you, you, you are using his own logic against him. Did you ever have any other opportunity to talk to this man offline, Ali? Like what, what happened after this was over?
- [18:41]
Ali Beth Stuckey
No. I will say that he was probably one of the most. Will probably play the other person who was also rattled, but he was one of two people that was very rattled. He was crumbling, actually. I don't even know if I was out of nerves or out of anger. And it almost like it was almost a little bit difficult because I could tell that he had rehearsed to this one line and he wasn't actually able to get out of that. And so I almost felt like bad to a degree. But I wasn't able to talk to him after. He wasn't interested in that. It didn't seem.
- [19:16]
Frank Turek
But you were brilliantly showing him by his own logic, that murder is only wrong if people can feel it.
- [19:24]
Tim
Right.
- [19:25]
Frank Turek
I wonder, has he never heard this before? Is this something that is common in the pro abortion world? They think as long as you don't feel it, everything's just fine. Where does this come from? It's such a terrible argument.
- [19:40]
Ali Beth Stuckey
I apologize. There are also dogs barking. They're not. I do not own these dogs, but they're in the background. So I apologize to anyone who can hear that. But you know, this is actually a common theme that I saw with a lot of them, that a lot of them have never heard the conservative or pro life argument about anything. So they were all stunned by this, actually all stunned by the arguments because they've just never heard them before.
- [20:04]
Frank Turek
Now I saw on another podcast you did. And by the way, friends, Ali's podcast, as I mentioned, is relatable she does have a show where she goes through some of these clips after the fact. And you mentioned that on this podcast. Ali, it's very difficult for them to find people who are liberal to sit in the chair and have 20 conservatives around them. Why is that?
- [20:26]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Yes, you know, we talked about that after the fact. They have been able to find some. Usually they're young tiktokers or kind of like activists, but it's very difficult to find just like the normal liberal author person to sit in the middle. And I'm assuming the reason is because they don't like to debate. Now they'll give some very virtuous sounding reason like I don't want to platform these radical ideas. Well, I don't want to give air to terrible conservative ideas. But the truth is, is that most of them have never had to contend for their beliefs and they are able to repeat mottos and mantras that don't make any sense, that they don't know how to logically back up. The truth is, is that you and I, because we are in the ideological minority, we are constantly kind of in a state of defense. We are constantly seeing lies on commercials and the media on social media and having to think why is that not true? Most of them just have not had to exercise those muscles as much as we have. That's what I think. I think it's fear and a lack of preparedness.
- [21:30]
Frank Turek
Now, in your experience dealing with the abortion issue quite a bit, what do you see other than this argument which I think is so bad, what do you see as their primary argument for the pro abortion position?
- [21:46]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Oh, they don't see abortion as murder. That's the big thing. And that's what I would encourage people, if you're in that conversation, to try to get them to explain why the murder, why the killing of someone inside the womb is morally any different than the killing of someone outside of the womb and make them explain why. Is it their location? Is it their size, Is it their age, is it their stage of development? Which one is it? And if it's any of those things, can we apply that to people outside of the womb? Do we justify killing a toddler but not a 13 year old or someone because of where they live or whether or not their parents are poor or whether or not parents want them? Is that how we justify killing a 2 year old? And if not, why not? They don't think about it like that. They think of abortion as a procedure. They don't think about the person we've got to bring it back to the.
- [22:34]
Frank Turek
Person and Ali unpacks that more. Ladies and gentlemen, in the great book Toxic Empathy, you need to get Toxic Empathy. We had Ali on the program last year for that. That is a book that is still very relevant. So check out Toxic Empathy. We have much more with Ali. We're going to talk about slavery, homosexuality, progressivism. Don't go anywhere. We're back right after the break.
- [23:01]
Radio Announcer
Students across America are more open to the truth of Christianity than ever before. And Dr. Frank Turek is taking the powerful evidence for God to campuses like UC Berkeley, the University of Georgia, Ohio State and Alabama, reaching thousands in person and millions more online. But every event now requires costly security to keep students safe and Cross Examine never charges students to attend. That's why we urgently need your support. The culture is dark, but hearts are open. Help keep the light of truth shining by donating today@crossexamine.org that's cross examine with a D on the end.org.
- [23:44]
Frank Turek
Welcome back to I Don't have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist with Frank Turek. My guest Ali Beth Stuckey, who's just done some the of amazing work recently on Jubilee, which is a YouTube channel where one person sits in the middle of 20 or so opponents and they keep debating certain issues. Ally debated several issues related to progressive Christianity. She also had a fantastic speech just about a week ago at Louisiana State University, lsu. She was there with the governor of of Louisiana. And we'll put that link in the show notes as well. You ought to watch that. She gave several reasons or several main teachings of Charlie Kirk and then answered questions for at least 45 minutes. But before we get back to Ali, I want to mention Lord willing, we will be at UC Berkeley this Monday. I was supposed to be there with Charlie. He'll remain in glory. I'll be there with actor Rob Schneider, Lord willing. Pray that goes well. And then University of Alabama, Thursday the 13th of November, I'll be there alone. We'll do if God, why evil? A Q A in favor of my in honor of my friend Charlie Kirk. Bring all your questions to that event. That is the 13th Thursday. Following Thursday we will be at Boise State University. Lord willing. I keep saying Lord willing because that's what James says. You don't know what's going to happen tomorrow, but it's on the schedule anyway at Boise State. November 20th happens to be my birthday. I'll be in Boise, Lord willing, when I'm 64.
- [25:18]
Radio Announcer
So there you go.
- [25:19]
Frank Turek
So that is awesome.
- [25:21]
Ali Beth Stuckey
I will definitely be praying about UC Berkeley I spoke there a long time ago. Back then, five years ago. That was the crazy experience I've had. So I'm going to be praying for open hearts and minds.
- [25:32]
Frank Turek
Thank you. What was the topic when you were there? Do you remember?
- [25:35]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Oh, you know, this was back in 2018. This was right in the middle of the Kavanaugh saga. And I actually went in there thinking, I'm going to very try, like, objectively explain, explain the conservative position and why there's so much of a misunderstanding. I actually thought that it would be well received, which was totally naive. I mean, I had people scream. It was to a class, too. So it wasn't just a random crowd screaming in the middle of my speech, yelling, throwing things. It was insane. It was insane. And it was fine. It was all good. It was safe. But people were very mad about just very normal common sense statements.
- [26:13]
Frank Turek
You know, my mentor, Dr. Norman Geist, used to say this. Ali, when people hear logic that they haven't thought of and it opposes their worldview, what they do is they emote. They don't argue, they emote. They throw slogans at you. They, as you say, may throw something at you physically because you're threatening their. What they perceive to be their existence, their own reality. And when you give them logic, they can't answer. They get very, very emotional. And so, thankfully, at this jubilee event, these folks appeared to be at least respectful, at least most of them. There were a couple that were a little snarky, in my view, but you handled them so well. And there's a section in here where you got talking to a progressive Christian about Jesus. This man claims was a progressive himself. So let's listen to a clip, and then I'll have you comment on it. Here we go.
- [27:16]
Progressive Christian Participant
I submit to you, and I wonder how you feel about this, that in his context, Jesus would have been seen as a progressive, as it related to, if we're going to use modern labels, the conservative religion of Second Temple Judaism. He had a posture of, look, there are some things that have gone astray. There are some things that you've heard it said. But I say to you, there's a belief, you know, progress is built into progressive. There's a belief that we can do better, like things can get better. So there's a part of Jesus that I see had a posture as not a progressive, but just as being progressive. So thoughts on that?
- [27:53]
Tim
Okay, so say every single person in this country believed that transgenderism was right, that homosexuality is right, something to be celebrated, believed in. Gay marriage. Okay. Except for this one person. And this one person started saying, nope, we've got it wrong. We need to change what we're doing here. I know that we've been doing this for 100 years, but I don't agree with this, and I'm gonna speak a different message. Would that person be progressive?
- [28:20]
Progressive Christian Participant
I didn't hear your thoughts on Jesus.
- [28:22]
Tim
So you were saying that. I'm trying to understand your logic. You were saying, because Jesus was saying something different than the Pharisees and the Sadducees saying something different than the message that a lot of people heard at the time, that he was progressive. Really, what I would argue is that, no, he was going back to what God's heart always was. When we see in Hebrews 11, for example, by faith, Abraham, by faith, Moses, we even read that by faith, Moses considered the reproach of Christ more important to him than the riches of the Egyptians. So we actually see from the very beginning, it was always faith in Christ. In the very beginning, God's law was always about heart, posture, obedience. So God wasn't bringing. Jesus wasn't bringing something new. He was saying, hey, I am the alpha and the omega. I am the word. As John 1 says, we're going back to how it was always meant to be.
- [29:07]
Progressive Christian Participant
Okay, but he was bringing new things. And. And I feel like in a different context, you would maybe bring foreign things.
- [29:14]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Different things.
- [29:15]
Progressive Christian Participant
Leviticus. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. Jesus, you've heard it said, an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. He was. He was adding, okay, so there's not.
- [29:21]
Tim
He doubles.
- [29:22]
Progressive Christian Participant
He says, I don't think that's a doubling down, Ally. I think it's a. I think it is a progress of, hey, we live in a new world, a new time. Let's do things differently. So here's why I think.
- [29:31]
Tim
I don't think so at all. Like in Matthew 19, for example, when he's asked about divorce. And Pharisees are like, yeah, what about divorce? And who's the wife in heaven? And all of this stuff, trying to trap Jesus as they did, he doesn't say, I bring to you something new. He says, oh, no, have you not read that? In the beginning, he who made them male and female said, the man will join the wife, and the two shall become one flesh. He goes all the way back to creation.
- [29:55]
Ali Beth Stuckey
And.
- [29:55]
Tim
And Jesus says, I've not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill the law. Do you believe that Jesus is God?
- [30:00]
Progressive Christian Participant
I think you're mishearing me. I'm not saying everything Jesus was teaching was a move forward. I'm saying he had a posture of saying, we've gotten off track. We've lost the plot on some things. My point is this. The people in this room who identify, liberal Christians, progressive Christians, I don't know what labels they use. Labels are helpful up until they're not. At some point, we always hit a point where that doesn't really fit anymore for me. But I feel like we all have a posture in this room of saying we live in a different world now than could have ever been anticipated 2,000 years ago, 3,000 years ago.
- [30:35]
Tim
Except for by God, because he knows everything.
- [30:38]
Frank Turek
Except for by God, he knows everything. That's certainly true. What do you mean? Unpack this further for us. Ally, you said Jesus doubled down. What do you mean by that?
- [30:49]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Yes, he doubled down on the heart and the spirit behind the law. What was the problem with the Pharisees? A lot of these progressive Christians will say, well, Jesus came to buck up against the religious leaders at the time and tell them that they're being too holy and too legalistic. No, no, no. Jesus's message was that you're not actually being holy in the true sense of holy. You're not being righteous in the true sense of being righteous. Sure, you know the letter of the law. You've even added letters to the law. But you're not following the spirit of the law. You're not following the heart of the law, which what you have been called to. And so Jesus is saying, this is what this law has always been about. He is going to the heart of it, and he takes it even further. You have heard it said that you shall not murder. But I say to you, if you hate your brother in your heart, that is akin to murder. And so he's making the standard even higher, even harder to reach. He's not saying there are no standards anymore. Do what you want to do.
- [31:47]
Frank Turek
And since he made it so hard and he says, be perfect as I am perfect, there's no way we could do that. That's what Jesus did for us. Yet these people, I wonder what they're. When they say that we can progress. Ali, I don't know if you got into this either offline or somewhere in the interview, I forgot. When they say that we're progressing towards some utopia, what standard are they using to judge that?
- [32:12]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Yeah, that's a great question. And we probably did maybe with one of the people. I might have asked, by what standard? Or you know, by what standard are you judging that? I Think I actually did to the guy who was wearing a red shirt, but I don't remember exactly what his answer was. But of course, that's the problem, is that they don't really have a standard. It's just their idea of what is getting better and better and more and more tolerant over time.
- [32:39]
Frank Turek
And as we said before in this program, ladies and gentlemen, if there is no God, there is no objective standard we're obligated to obey, which means there are no rights. And if there are no rights, nobody can complain that their rights have been violated. Yet so many of these folks are on the other side of the aisle think their rights have been violated when they have no way to justify human rights in their worldview. Now, you said this, and people in the comments just love this. Ali, I want you to unpack it further. You say, when I read the Bible, I'm not just saying, okay, what can I get away with? And another point you said, I'm not trying to see how close I can get to the edge of a cliff. Rather, I'm trying to see how far away I can stay away from it. Comment on that.
- [33:22]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Yeah, because I hear this a lot when it comes to homosexuality. You'll hear, well, let me see how I can interpret this one verse in Leviticus or this one verse in Romans, or let me just do away with these verses that are uncomfortable. Well, obviously that's a wrong approach. But even if you did that, even if you were somehow try to finagle the interpretation, so it doesn't really prohibit homosexuality, we still have to say, but what does God call good? What does he call holy? What do we see him affirm throughout Scripture, not only what do we see him prohibit, but what does he call good? And with the definition of marriage, we see it from Genesis 1 to Revelation 20 that the Bible starts with the marriage and ends with the marriage. That time ends with a marriage and these gender designations, one male and one female joining together in holy matrimony. That's not just a physical connection, but that is reflective of the eternal reality of the marriage between Christ the groom and his church, the bride. So that definition of marriage actually has eternal, gospel, heavenly, spiritual significance. Which in my view is exactly why when you see these people deconstruct and they start to deny Genesis 1:27, they eventually deny John 14:6. Because the definition of marriage and holy sexuality is actually very integral to the Christian faith. It's not some weird tertiary thing. It's really about holiness. And if you believe God has the authority to define what's good.
- [34:51]
Frank Turek
Well, that's the ultimate question. That is the difference between somebody who looks at the Bible as God's word and somebody who looks at the Bible as maybe suggestive. But we can progress beyond this. So I know you're devoted to this idea that God is the standard of truth and His Word is how we ought to live. And that's, of course, what my colleagues Natasha Crane and Elisa Childers are all about when we do our Unshaken conference. And by the way, folks, if you're listening, we're going to be at Stonebriar Church this Saturday for Unshaken at the last minute, if you want to get a ticket. Love to see you there. Elisa, myself and Natasha will be there. And then I'm speaking at the morning services on the 9th at Stonebrier Church. We'll do if God why Evil? So it ultimately comes down to who is the authority? Ali, who is the authority? Are we the authority? Is the culture the authority, or is God in His word the authority? So we've just got to do a, a better job of showing people why the Bible is true, why it is while it is the word. And quite frequently it's not a matter of the mind, it's a matter of the heart. They don't want it to to be true, do they?
- [36:01]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Yeah, that's so true. And what you something you said earlier reminded me of CS Lewis and mere Christianity. He basically says everyone's a moral relativist until someone steals your bike and then suddenly you've got a right that has been violated. And we've introduced objective morality into the conversation.
- [36:19]
Frank Turek
Exactly. We're going to have a lot more with the great Ali Best. Ducky right after the break, we're going to talk about this issue of slavery. Slavery in the Bible and homosexuality. Is there some sort of relation between the two? You're going to see Ali interact with someone who says there is. So don't go anywhere. We're back in just a couple of minutes. You're listening to I Don't have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist on the American Family Radio and other stations around the country. How do you debate 20 progressive Christians at once? Well, you need to watch Ali Bestucky do it. She did it brilliantly for over an hour and a half. The video is in the show notes. We're, we're playing a couple of clips from it right now. And she did such a fabulous job. You need to read down in the comments as well. Here's one comment that I should have mentioned earlier. This person in the YouTube comment section said, I'm not very religious and I don't know who any of these people are, but I have to confess, this woman, meaning Ali, made me actually rethink my stand on abortion. And that's just one of several, because, ladies and gentlemen, a lot of times people don't hear arguments. What they hear is slogans. And when they are presented with arguments that question the slogan and give evidence against the slogan, they don't know what to do with it. In this case, this person has actually now come, it appears to be, to the pro life position because they watched a debate with Ali Beth Stuckey against a progressive Christian. Ali, I do want to cover the homosexuality and slavery issue, which were somehow combined by a progressive Christian by the name of Tim that you debated. Let's play the clip and then we'll talk about it. This is Tim addressing this issue of slavery and homosexuality.
- [38:16]
Tim
Let's talk about a different kind of slavery that existed, which was bond servant, for example. So people were in debt. And so to pay their way out of debt, sometimes they would have bond service for a certain amount of time to pay their way into freedom. It was not always the same as the chattel slavery that we see in the 19th century in America, for example. And so it was a different context and it was a different time. That does not mean that any of us should condone slavery.
- [38:42]
Frank Turek
All I want to say is that you perfectly gave the framework for why we don't believe that homosexuality in the Bible is the same thing as it is today.
- [38:49]
Tim
We see it over and over again.
- [38:51]
Ali Beth Stuckey
No, no, no.
- [38:52]
Tim
We see it throughout Scripture.
- [38:53]
Frank Turek
You can't say slavery in the Bible back then was contextual and different than what race based childhood slavery is and then not do the same thing for homosexuality.
- [39:02]
Tim
The Bible has prescriptive and descriptive allegory and poem 100% hyperbole. Genesis 1 is allegory and literalism. And so we have to read everything in context. And when we see homosexuality not only explicitly condemned, but we also see again from creation all the way to Revelation 20, that it's an earthly reflection of an eternal reality, the marriage between Christ and the church, which is gendered, by the way, as we see in Ephesians 5, we see that reiterated over and over again. So it's not only that the Bible condemns it again. It is the only relationship that God calls good.
- [39:39]
Frank Turek
All right, Ally, I had a little trouble following his line of argumentation there. What do you think he is arguing?
- [39:47]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Okay, I actually had to do this a Few times for some of the participants, I felt like I had to explain their argument for them so we could get to a place of clarity. I'm like, I think I understand what you're saying actually better than you do. I think what he was saying, which obviously this is wrong, but because we. He said that Christians at one point used the Bible to justify slavery. But he would argue that over time, because cultural norms changed, they changed how they viewed the Bible, and they changed how they viewed slavery. He would say that that is progressivism. And in the same way, Christians at one point might have used the Bible to condemn homosexuality. But over time, things have changed. And so we should take a new look at homosexuality in the same way that we took a new look at slavery. Obviously, like, and I would love to hear you respond to that. People just heard my response, but I think that's what he was trying to say. Yeah.
- [40:44]
Frank Turek
Well, with regard to slavery, I think you pointed out rightly that slavery, at least in the Old Testament, was indentured servitude. It wasn't chattel slavery. And even slavery in Roman times was not the same as chattel slavery. It was worse than indentured servitude. But it wasn't like, as you said in the 19th century here. And when Paul says to his. To his listeners, slaves, obey your masters. That was part of another clip, by the way. We didn't play for you. You point out, well, that's in the context of so many other relationships that you ought to obey authority. He's not condoning slavery, whatever it meant at that time. He's saying, you're a Christian. You should treat people well even if they don't treat you well. Right?
- [41:26]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Yeah.
- [41:27]
Frank Turek
But this whole idea that somehow, because we have information on slavery that makes Old Testament slavery not the same as slavery today somehow affects the homosexuality issue. That doesn't make sense, by the way. We have gotten more restrictive on slavery, our view of slavery today, rightfully so, than, say, the Romans had. But he's trying to make the case that. That we should be less restrictive on homosexuality. Yet you point out, and maybe you could reiterate this, that it's not just the commands against homosexual behavior. It's the entire background of reality and the entire background of the Gospel and the entire background of the Bible of marriage between a man and a woman. Unpack that.
- [42:19]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Exactly. I've been using this alliteration for a few years that I came up with on my show, probably 2019 or so. It's the five Rs of why it's so important to get the definition of marriage right. So the definition of marriage between one man and one woman is one rooted in creation. We see that in Genesis 1:27 it is two reiterated throughout Scripture, such as honor your father and mother. It is three repeated by Jesus himself. Matthew 19:4 5. Have you not read that he who made them in the beginning made them male and female and then defines marriage? There it is 4 representative of the gospel. We see that in Ephesians 5. Paul says, this mystery is profound. I'm telling you it represents Christ in the church. That this marriage between a man and a woman, not two men, not two women, but only one man and one woman, can represent the marriage between Christ the groom and his church the bride. So that's four representative of the Gospel. And representative of Christ in the church rather is what number four is. And the number five is reflective of of the Gospel because it is representative of Christ in the church. It is 5 reflective of the gospel. The Bible starts with a marriage and ends with a marriage. Basically all of time starts with the marriage and ends with a marriage between one man and one woman. Wow. How significant is that? That this earthly relationship, the only one that can in principle be fruitful and multiply, is also the reflection of the marriage between Christ and his bride. So that's why it is so significant.
- [44:02]
Frank Turek
Well said. Now this gentleman Tim was very kind during the debate, but things have changed since the debate. What has happened since then?
- [44:11]
Ali Beth Stuckey
So I've actually interacted with him and some of our mutual friends, like Elisa Childers have interacted with him online. He's always very crass, very rude, but you know, whatever. I knew, I actually guess that he was going to be there. I didn't know that for sure, but when we were talking off camera, he was very nice, very polite. He asked about Charlie, he said sorry about Charlie. He talked to my husband and was, you know, very polite to him. He wasn't super polite during the debate, but it's a debate. I was fine with that. But it's been after that he, the things that he has been posting and saying, both in video on his Instagram, some of the most just vile character maligning things about me because of my book, Toxic Empathy because of the things that I believe. And it just goes to show like a double minded man is unstable in all of his ways, unstable in his beliefs, unstable in how he reacts to something. And it goes back to what you said earlier. When people can't contend with your logic, they emote, they name call and that's really what I've seen. And so we need to pray for Tim, pray for all of the people in this circle. Some of them, I could see wheels turning and like, let's just pray that God takes hold of them. Others may be a little bit more calloused. But the Lord can do anything. He can do anything. So let's definitely pray for all of those participants in that circle.
- [45:30]
Frank Turek
Amen. Tell us a little bit with a few minutes to go about toxic empathy. Where do you think toxic empathy has done the most damage in our society and maybe even the church?
- [45:42]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Oh, goodness. So we just saw the results of this election on Tuesday where you've got mom Donnie and you've got Jay Jones and these people who are out and out left wing radicals in every way. And if you look at the exit polling, about 80% of women in these areas voted for these extreme Democratic candidates. And I get asked all the time, why is this? And of course there's a variety of reasons. I think toxic empathy is the number one because you've got a lot of women that channel their natural motherhood instincts towards their pet supposed victims. And so I call it misplaced mothering. They channel that kind of motherhood nurturing instincts distinct towards the illegal alien or the criminal or the person that they think is being oppressed by the system in some way, the racial minority. And they believe that voting Democrat makes them a good person and helps them care for the people that they're supposed to care for. I think it is a perversion of actually the beautiful compassion that is very natural to women. I think it is satanic, actually. But we see this in the justification of abortion. We see it in the justification of illegal immigration, soft on crime policies. The road to hell is paved with good intentions and the road to chaos is paved with toxic empathy. And so I could go a million different directions with that, but it really does wreak havoc.
- [47:03]
Frank Turek
Just to add one thing, I've heard you say this before. When you're involved in toxic empathy, you only see one person involved, you forget about the other person. Explain what that means.
- [47:17]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Yes. Toxic empathy, I say, blinds you to reality and morality. It makes you look only on one side of the moral equation. So, for example, in abortion, we see this reported by all kinds of media outlets. But NPR is one that I've seen tells this story of this woman named Samantha who was pregnant, got a horrible diagnosis for her child at 20 weeks. She wanted to get an abortion, but the cruel state of Texas wouldn't allow her to force her to keep her child, to give birth to her child, to carry her dead child and to bury her child. And all of it was written from the perspective of the mom. And by the end of it, you're thinking, oh, my gosh, this poor woman. How dare Texas prevent her from being liberated from her pain and making the easier choice for her. But if you take a step back and you think about the perspective that NPR is not telling you, the perspective of the baby, and you ask yourself, well, what about her? What would have happened if this Texas law hadn't been implemented? She would have been poisoned. She would have been injected with the chemical combination that is used to stop her heart in the womb. She would have been forced into cardiac arrest. She would have been dismembered. And so Christians have to think in truth and in love about who is on the other side of the moral equation.
- [48:35]
Frank Turek
Get the book Toxic Empathy. Ladies and gentlemen, watch the links that we put in the show notes here. Ali Bestucker you can learn a lot from. She's doing great work. Ali Beth, thank you so much.
- [48:45]
Ali Beth Stuckey
Thank you very much.
- [48:46]
Frank Turek
Frank, Allie, BethStucky. Ladies and gentlemen, AliBestucky.com don't forget, be at UC Berkeley this Monday and University of Alabama on Thursday. Lord willing. See you there. God bless.
- [49:00]
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- [49:20]
Ali Beth Stuckey
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