Podcast Summary: "New-Testament Slavery: Fact vs. Fiction with Dr. Paul Copan"

Podcast: I Don't Have Enough FAITH to Be an ATHEIST
Host: Dr. Frank Turek
Guest: Dr. Paul Copan
Episode Date: August 26, 2025
Topic: Examination of Old and New Testament slavery—common objections, historical context, and whether the Bible condoned or undermined slavery.

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode continues a deep dive (from a previous conversation) into whether the Bible supports, condones, or undermines slavery, with a heavy focus on context, differences from modern (American) slavery, and what the Old and New Testaments actually teach. Dr. Paul Copan, philosopher and biblical scholar, aims to clarify misunderstandings by unpacking ancient legal systems, historical context, and New Testament developments.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Abuses & Regulation of Indentured Servitude in the Old Testament

• Historical abuses: Some post-exilic Jews impoverished their kin by charging illegal interest, forcing them into servitude (see Nehemiah, Jeremiah 34). Such abuse led to Israel’s punishment with exile.
  "A very strong connection between the abuse of those who are indentured servants and going into exile as punishment for that." (01:00, Dr. Paul Copan)
• Comparison to modern debt: Dr. Turek draws a parallel between unethical ancient practices and modern-day predatory lending, highlighting timeless principles of justice:
  "Our current interest system is more immoral than Israel's was in that sense." (02:11, Dr. Frank Turek)

2. Servant Rights and Dignity

• Unique protective laws: Old Testament slaves were protected—e.g., permanent injury meant automatic release (Exodus 21), and murder by a master could trigger capital punishment.
  "There is capital punishment that is connected to this. So don't just dismiss it... it does presuppose that there is worth and dignity associated with that servant." (03:12, Copan)
• Comparison to other ancient cultures: Unlike Babylonian law, Israel’s system was less dehumanizing and focused on the servant’s welfare.

3. Understanding Old Testament Law in Context

• Temporary and specific: The Mosaic Law was not an eternal standard but a specific code for ancient Israel’s context.
  "The Old Testament law is not the ideal law for all time, for all nations...it was a temporary code for Israel." (07:57, Turek)
• Description vs. Prescription: Many texts merely describe not prescribe, or offer the "moral floor" not the "moral ceiling."
  "They're saying things that are simply permitted, as Jesus said in Matthew 19:8, because of the hardness of human hearts." (10:46, Copan)

4. Case Law vs. Absolute Commands

• Case Law: If-then laws provided judicial wisdom rather than absolute ideals or exhaustive coverage.
  "The law of Moses is giving to us certain pictures or vignettes that judges can... assess related cases." (13:34, Copan)

5. Nature of Old Testament Servitude

• More like household service: Many servants worked alongside masters, shared in household welfare, and were not merely exploited labor. (14:45–15:25)
• Differentiation between male and female servants: Laws appearing contradictory are often complementary or implicit/explicit treatments between Exodus, Deuteronomy, and Leviticus, not true contradictions.
  "You can also see it as being a kind of a complementarity." (15:52, Copan)

6. Moral Progress and Incremental Revelation

• Gradual unfolding: God initiates a redemptive arc. Early laws tolerated but regulated servitude with a trajectory toward humanizing and eventual abolition through Christ.
  "There is something incremental...that is the shadow of what will later on come to be fulfilled in Jesus Christ." (18:32, Copan)
• Commands vs. underlying values: Practices like dietary laws can change, the underlying value (e.g., care, separation, health) remains. (20:44–21:25)

7. Transactional Language and the “Evil of Slavery”

• Ownership vs. contract: The "evil" in slavery is not contract work or debt service, but total ownership that strips volition and dignity. Israelite laws prevented this (e.g., prohibition of “ownership tattoos”).
  "Tattooing is prohibited...because it indicates that you are treating that person as though that person is at your disposal." (22:50, Copan)

8. Slavery in the New Testament & Roman Context

• Roman slavery: More severe than Israelite indenture. Slaves could be executed with impunity; manumission was rare and difficult. (28:06–29:35)
• Pauline teaching: Paul addresses slaves and masters as moral agents, shifting relationships toward mutual dignity and spiritual brotherhood.
  "Paul is pressing the notion of family belonging as the driving metaphor." (30:04–34:31, Copan)
• Undermining, not outright abolishing: The Christian revolution started internally—undermining chattel slavery by promoting equality and brotherhood in Christ, especially through practices like communal meals and the Lord’s Supper.

9. The Challenge of Immediate Abolition

• Pragmatic considerations: Given Rome’s economic dependency (30–50% enslaved), outright abolition could have caused massive social collapse. Even England needed state reparations to free its few slaves two millennia later. (37:19–41:19)
• Incremental ethics: Other issues, like divorce or kosher laws, were similarly regulated for a time rather than outright abolished. (41:19–43:58)

10. Roots of Abolitionism

• Christian impetus: Major abolitionists were almost all Christian, motivated by the biblical idea of the image of God and the command to love neighbor.
• Secular supporters of this view: Even secular historians like Tom Holland, Jurgen Habermas, and Neil Ferguson affirm the distinctive Christian contribution to human rights, the dignity of all, and abolition.
  "It’s been the Christians. And the Jewish ethic of justice and the Christian ethic of love actually gave to us that inheritance of individual rights..." (45:37–48:44, Copan)

11. Jesus as the Ultimate Example

• God as servant: The incarnation—God taking the form of a servant to rescue humanity—became a model for universal dignity and a unique feature that changed the West.
  "God entering into the world, not to punish humanity, but to actually take the punishment for humanity...revolutionized the world." (50:26, Copan)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On servant dignity:
  “Notice the dignity that is assumed about the servant who is killed, that there is capital punishment that is connected to this.” (03:12, Copan)
• On law and context:
  “The Old Testament law is not the ideal law for all time, for all nations, for all people. It was a temporary code for Israel in that situation.” (07:57, Turek)
• On the ‘evil of slavery’:
  “The evil of slavery is that you own another person, that that person is at your disposal, that that person’s dignity and volition are totally stripped from them.” (22:50, Copan)
• On Paul’s radical approach:
  “Paul is pressing the notion of family belonging as the driving metaphor... fundamentally eroding the rigidity of this institution and... humanizing it.” (30:04, Copan)
• On Jesus and social change:
  “God coming to the world...to take the punishment for humanity...revolutionized the world and brought to us the humanizing changes that we’ve seen in Western civilization where all human beings are fundamentally equal.” (50:26, Copan)

Important Segment Timestamps

• Abuses of servitude & Nehemiah’s reforms: 01:00–02:44
• Old Testament servant rights & case law: 03:12–07:57
• Law as contextually specific: 07:57–10:46
• Case law vs. prescriptive commands: 12:45–14:24
• Contradiction or complementarity in servant laws: 15:52–18:22
• Incremental/trajectory ethics: 18:32–21:40
• Transactional language & analogy to modern contracts: 22:50–25:57
• Roman slavery vs. Israelite practice: 28:06–29:53
• Pauline teaching on slaves & masters: 30:04–34:31
• Why not immediate abolition? 34:49–41:19
• Other incremental laws (divorce, kosher): 41:19–43:58
• Christian abolitionists & secular corroborations: 45:37–48:44
• Jesus as servant and the revolutionized West: 50:26–52:21

Conclusion

This episode distinguishes between fact and fiction regarding biblical slavery, dissecting ancient and modern misunderstandings. Dr. Copan demonstrates that while the Bible regulated servitude within an ancient context (with far more protections and dignity than surrounding cultures), its trajectory—culminating in Christ—enabled the eventual abolition of slavery and the elevation of universal human dignity. The episode underscores that biblical revelation is often incremental, meeting people where they are while moving them toward greater justice, a pattern seen with issues like divorce, dietary laws, and, pivotally, slavery.

Recommended Reading (by Dr. Paul Copan):

• Is God a Moral Monster?
• Is God a Vindictive Bully?
• Christianity Contested (with chapters on slavery and genocide) [Paul Copan's website: paulcopan.com]

This summary provides a structured and thorough overview for those unfamiliar with the episode, capturing the key arguments, contexts, and memorable exchanges.