Podcast Summary: "Old-Testament Slavery: Fact vs. Fiction with Dr. Paul Copan"

Podcast: I Don't Have Enough FAITH to Be an ATHEIST
Host: Dr. Frank Turek
Guest: Dr. Paul Copan
Date: August 22, 2025

Overview

This episode tackles one of the most challenging and controversial subjects in Bible criticism: the topic of slavery in the Old Testament, especially as described in Leviticus 25. Dr. Frank Turek is joined by Dr. Paul Copan, a scholar and author of several books on Old Testament morality, including Is God a Moral Monster? and Is God a Vindictive Bully? Together, they unpack common misconceptions, crucial cultural context, translation concerns, and the deeper redemptive trajectory within biblical laws regarding servitude. Their discussion offers theological, historical, and textual analysis to address the charge that the Bible endorses or condones chattel slavery akin to that in the American South.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Context of Old Testament Slavery

Timestamps: [00:03]–[06:14]

• Dr. Turek opens with a reading of Leviticus 25, noting atheist/skeptical claims that the Bible condones chattel slavery.
• Dr. Copan states his latest book devotes three chapters to Leviticus 25 due to popular demand for deeper engagement ([02:32]).
• The discussion emphasizes the complexity of the topic and the need for understanding:
  • Ancient Near Eastern culture vs. modern Western culture
  • The Hebrew language and translation caveats
  • Economic realities and legal structures in ancient Israel
  • The biblical distinction between prescription and description of practices
  • The difference between ancient servitude and American chattel slavery ([04:01])
• “You just can't sort of quote verses devoid of context to understand what the Bible as a whole is teaching about slavery.” — Dr. Frank Turek ([04:01])

2. Theological Foundations: Human Dignity

Timestamps: [06:14]–[08:16]

• Dr. Copan points to Genesis 1 as foundational: “Both male and female are made in the image of God...There is this intrinsic dignity that is God given.” ([06:14])
• God steps into a fallen world with broken institutions and begins moving people on a “redemptive trajectory."
• The vision is toward equality in Christ, “where you see...no ultimate ethnic distinction...that is something that is a shadow of the substance that is to come.” — Dr. Paul Copan ([37:33])

3. Ancient Slavery vs. American Slavery

Timestamps: [08:16]–[13:23]

• Dr. Copan distinguishes ancient systems from the American South:
  • Ancient Near East: Focus on servitude, not racially-based; no systemic kidnapping—prohibited in Israel
  • Israel: Unique “concern for foreigners” and a legal system protecting orphans, widows, and aliens ([11:15])
  • American slavery: Chattel slavery, dehumanization, legal ownership “body and soul,” racialization, and the Dred Scott logic ([13:23])
• “If you want to find refuge…come to Israel, because that is going to be much more to your benefit than it would have been in other portions of the ancient Near East.” — Dr. Paul Copan ([12:59])

4. The Challenge of Translation: "Slave" vs. "Servant"

Timestamps: [15:55]–[21:14]

• Modern translations’ use of "slave" causes misperception:
  • Hebrew eved can mean “servant,” not “slave” in the chattel sense ([16:30])
  • Biblical figures called “servants of the Lord” (e.g., Moses, Joshua) ([16:30])
  • King James used “servant,” modern versions increasingly use “slave” laden with racial and colonial baggage
• “The term ‘slave’ itself is very misleading because it does conjure up all sorts of emotive language related to the terrible [slavery in the Americas]…that's very, very misleading.” — Dr. Paul Copan ([16:30])
• Peter Williams: Advocation for restoring more neutral wording to prevent misunderstanding ([19:51])

5. Indentured Servitude: Purpose and Limits

Timestamps: [21:14]–[22:55]

• Indentured servitude defined as contract-based debt payment, with release after a set period (six years in Israel).
• Distinction: “There is a lot of skin in the game for the Israelites to hold to that law and to keep those servants to that six year term.” — Dr. Paul Copan ([21:21])
• Abuse of servitude in Israel was condemned, with exile as divine punishment for such abuses (Jeremiah 34).

6. Chattel Slavery vs. Biblical Servitude

Timestamps: [24:46]–[27:03]

• Chattel slavery described as the “buying and selling of slaves as property without regard to their dignity” ([24:46]).
• The evil: “One person is basically the owner of another person, body and soul…has been stripped of all dignity, all rights…has no dignity…a mere commodity.” — Dr. Paul Copan ([24:46])

7. Deep Dive: Leviticus 25 Explained

Timestamps: [27:03]–[37:33]

• Leviticus 25 permits acquiring foreign servants, but NOT as objects; key is context and broader canon command to love and protect aliens (Leviticus 19).
• Transactional language (“acquire,” “possession”) also applied to Israelites and foreigners alike ([27:03]):
  • Foreigners can acquire Israelites; the relationship can be reversed (Lev 25:47; [35:55],[37:33])
  • Numerous examples (Uriah the Hittite, Ruth, Obed-Edom) of foreigners flourishing, holding high positions, or marrying into Israel. Not dehumanized or property
  • “Are these people being treated as property, as objects and so forth? No, just the opposite. These people are in respectable conditions.” — Dr. Paul Copan ([33:35])
• “The alien and the native are to both live under the same basic law…fundamental regard for the dignity of both” — Dr. Paul Copan ([27:03])

8. Why Not Outlaw All Forms of Slavery?

Timestamps: [41:12]–[44:13]

• The Bible prohibits kidnapping (Exodus 21:16, Deuteronomy 24:7), a capital crime, and Paul condemns slave trading (1 Timothy 1:10).
• Complete abolition would leave famine refugees and landless foreigners destitute. Attaching to a household was sometimes the only survival option in a world without welfare.
• “Well, you're going to attach yourself to an Israelite household...and that this is another way of coming into servitude in Israel as a foreigner.” — Dr. Paul Copan ([41:12])
• The system allowed for humanitarian provision amid grim economic realities.

9. Redemptive Direction — The Bible’s Vision

Timestamps: [44:13]–[48:05]

• Some laws are “concessionary,” permitted “because of the hardness of human hearts” (Matthew 19:8), not God’s ideal.
• The ultimate biblical arc is one of dignity, equality, and unity in the family of God (see Isaiah 19, Galatians 3:28).
• “Within the Old Testament law, passages actually deconstruct slavery, servitude such that it's not to be an enduring institution.” — Dr. Paul Copan ([44:13])
• The text demonstrates Israel’s “deconstruction of slavery” and offers means for compassionate treatment, security, and even upward mobility as opposed to exploitation.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Both male and female are made in the image of God…That helps shape the vision of the Old Testament and also brings us into the New.”
  — Dr. Paul Copan ([06:14])

• “If you want to have a hope of something that is more humanizing and enabling you to flourish…come to Israel, because that is going to be much more to your benefit than it would have been in other portions of the ancient Near East.”
  — Dr. Paul Copan ([12:59])

• “The term ‘slave’ itself is very misleading because it does conjure up all sorts of emotive language…That's very, very misleading.”
  — Dr. Paul Copan ([16:30])

• “By the simple expedient of runaway, the foreigner can come to Israel through his own free choice…this notion of slavery as this oppressive thing kind of loses all of its force.”
  — Dr. Paul Copan ([44:13])

Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:03 — Introduction; Leviticus 25 read and set up
• 06:14 — Genesis and the image of God: biblical equality as foundation
• 08:16 — Status of slavery in the ancient world and Egypt
• 11:15 — Israel's unique concern for foreigners and the vulnerable
• 13:23 — Comparing American and Ancient slavery; legal differences
• 16:30 — Problems with the word “slave” in translations
• 21:21 — The system of indentured servitude explained
• 24:46 — What is chattel slavery?
• 27:03 — Leviticus 25: Common misunderstandings and actual Old Testament practice
• 33:35 — Foreigners thriving and respected in Israel
• 37:33 — Interchangeability of servant status; reversibility between Israelite and foreigner
• 41:12 — Why not outlaw all forms of servitude in ancient Israel?
• 44:13 — Slavery deconstructed in Old Testament law
• 47:46 — Modern applications and conclusion/resource recommendations

Conclusion & Further Resources

Dr. Copan underscores how critical ancient context, linguistic precision, and theological vision are for rightly understanding Old Testament laws and stories about servitude. The system was distinctly different from modern popular perceptions of “slavery,” included numerous legal protections, and was always bounded by the larger biblical teaching of equality and compassion. For a deeper dive, Dr. Copan’s books, especially Is God a Vindictive Bully?, are recommended.

Resources Mentioned:

• paulcopan.com
• Is God a Vindictive Bully?
• Is God a Moral Monster?
• Slavery and Warfare in the Old Testament

For more on the New Testament and slavery, tune in to the next episode of this series.