UC Berkeley Update - Plus Q&A on Two Messiahs and More

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: “UC Berkeley Update – Plus Q&A on Two Messiahs and More”

Podcast: I Don't Have Enough FAITH to Be an ATHEIST
Host: Dr. Frank Turek
Date: November 11, 2025

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Dr. Frank Turek gives an on-the-road update from a recent Turning Point USA (TPUSA) event at UC Berkeley, highlighting the challenges faced on college campuses around free speech and inclusion. The main segment is a listener Q&A, with a focus on Jewish-Christian dialogue, particularly the question of why Jesus is viewed as the Messiah given ongoing suffering and the concept of two Messiahs (or two comings). The episode closes with advice for Christian parents navigating interfaith relationships and reflects on the impact of significant events.

---

Key Segments & Discussion Points

1. UC Berkeley Event Recap and Free Speech Challenges (00:00–02:27)

• Challenges at the Event:

  • Half-filled venue despite high ticket demand due to protests and university restrictions.
  • Protesters using slurs, creating a hostile environment.
  • Allegations of online sabotage—countering inclusion by blocking real attendees.

• Guests:

  • Rob Schneider, actor, and Peter Boghossian, atheist philosopher.
  • Emphasized the irony: “The folks who say they're fighting for inclusion, tolerance and diversity did not want to include us.” (00:07, possibly Peter Boghossian)
  • Plans for ongoing TPUSA events at other universities.

---

2. Listener Mailbag: Q&A on Jesus as Messiah and Jewish Objections (02:38–36:05)

A. Introduction & Listener Question (03:32–04:28)

• From Myra:
  • “I'm a secular Jewish female... I've always been curious learning about different faiths. I'm confused about Christianity. If Jesus died for mankind’s sin and was considered a Messiah, doesn't that mean all the problems and suffering on earth would have ended with his death? Why is it Jesus must return again?” (03:32–04:00)
  • Additional questions: Why didn't Jesus write himself? How do we know his disciples didn't change his teachings? Why are there so many Bible versions?

B. Reliability of the Disciples and the New Testament (04:39–07:41)

• All New Testament authors were Jews.
• Significant quote:
  • “You don’t invent things that get you kicked out of your community and then beaten, tortured and killed.” (05:28, Frank Turek)
• Disciples taught things that were inconvenient for themselves, suggesting authenticity.
• Care was taken to distinguish their own words from Jesus’s teachings.

C. The ‘Two Messiahs’ in Jewish Thought (07:55–15:40)

• Evidence from Dead Sea Scrolls and pre-Christian Judaism: belief in both a suffering and a conquering Messiah.
• Zechariah, Micah, Daniel, and Isaiah illustrate both peaceful and kingly Messianic prophecies—sometimes interpreted as two Messiahs (“Ben Joseph,” the suffering servant; “Ben David,” the conquering king).
• Quote:
  • “Is Zechariah contradicting himself? This is a big puzzle for Jewish scholars as well.” (13:30, Frank Turek)

D. Jesus’s Fulfillment of Messianic Prophecy (15:45–23:01)

• Inauguration of ministry (Luke 4): Jesus reads from Isaiah 61, pointedly stops mid-verse:
  • “He stopped right there. That actually is mid-verse. Why? Because the next verse says, 'And the day of vengeance of our God.' That's his second coming. That's why he stopped right there.” (19:21–20:07, Frank Turek)
• Jesus’s authority over sin, nature, sickness, and death are presented as evidence of his Messiahship.
• First coming = atonement and spiritual peace; second coming = judgment and world peace.

E. Messiah’s Timing and Old Testament Prophecies (25:39–32:25)

• Messiah must be human (“seed of the woman,” Genesis 3:15), from David’s line, born in Bethlehem, both God and man (Isaiah 9:6).
• Malachi 3:1 predicts the Messiah would come to the temple (destroyed in AD 70), which places the Messiah’s coming before then.
• Daniel’s prophecies lead some to the year AD 33 for the expected death of Messiah.

F. Suffering Servant & The Missed Messiah (31:34–36:05)

• Isaiah 52:13–53:12 cited as describing the suffering servant who bears others' sins.
• Talmud hints at two Messiahs.
• Profound quote:
  • “There could be two Messiahs, either two separate Messiahs or one Messiah who comes twice…” (32:50–32:55, Frank Turek)
• Encouragement for Jewish listeners to explore messianic prophecies and the evidence for Jesus’s resurrection.

---

3. Impact Events & the Resurrection (36:05–43:41)

• Jesus as History’s Pivot:

  • “He’s the most influential person in history. How do you think this could have happened if he hadn’t risen from the dead?” (36:05–36:14, Frank Turek)

• ‘Impact Event’ Concept:

  • Life-changing moments (JFK assassination, 9/11, Charlie Kirk’s death) are remembered in vivid detail—so too with the resurrection.
  • “Do you think if Jesus really rose from the dead, that would have been an impact event? You think they would have forgotten it?” (39:23, Frank Turek)

• “One Solitary Life” Poem (41:26–42:36): Read aloud to underscore the uniqueness of Jesus and his outsized legacy.

---

4. Practical Q&A: Interfaith Marriage and Christian Science (43:41–52:31)

A. On Dating/Marrying Non-Christians (44:45–48:07)

• Biblical caution against “missionary dating” (dating with the intent to convert).
• “Fraternity will almost always overcome theology.” (46:59, Norman Geisler, cited by Frank)
• Main point: Do not let personal relationships supersede faith commitments.

B. Navigating Difference: Questions for the Doubting/Drifting (48:07–52:31)

• Ask direct questions: “If historic orthodox Christianity were true, would you become a Christian? … Would you follow God if He is truly God?” (48:05–48:30)

• Regarding Christian Science:

  • Watchman Fellowship recommended as a resource.
  • Emphasis on investigating what’s TRUE, not just what “works.”

---

5. Closing Insights: Faith, Evidence, and Worldview Choices (52:31–55:24)

• Religion as “insulin, not ice cream”:
  • “Either Christianity is true or it isn’t. It’s not a preference, it’s a statement of fact.” (53:02, Frank Turek)
• The problem of sin: only two options—pay for your own or accept Jesus’s sacrifice (54:01–54:30).

---

Memorable Quotes

• On institutional resistance at UC Berkeley:

  • “Tolerance and diversity did not want to include us… did not want to tolerate us for holding a diverse view.” (00:07–00:11, Peter Boghossian)

• On the credibility of the first disciples:

  • “You don’t invent things that get you kicked out of your community and… killed.” (05:28, Frank Turek)

• On the puzzle of two Messiahs:

  • “Is it possible that one individual might fit the bill of both pictures? Someone who would be both a king of peace and a king of power, a humble servant and a conqueror?” (15:04–15:19, Frank Turek quoting Garrett Smith)

• On Jesus’ two comings:

  • “He’s not claiming that he’s going to judge everybody right now. That’s…the second half of the last verse…because there’s a second coming.” (22:25–22:32, Frank Turek)

• On the nature of religious truth:

  • “Is religion like ice cream… or is it really like insulin, which means it’s what you need if you’re a diabetic?” (52:31–52:55, Frank Turek citing Greg Koukl)

---

Resource Links Shared

• RealMessiah.com: Resources for Jewish readers on Jesus as Messiah.
• Watchman Fellowship (watchman.org): Cults and new religious movements info.
• Debates: e.g., Dr. Michael Brown vs. Reform Rabbi.
• Previous podcast episodes on related topics (e.g., Jewish converts, conspiracy theories).

---

Episode Timeline

| Topic | Timestamp | |---------------------------------------|------------------| | UC Berkeley event recap | 00:00–02:27 | | Listener Q&A (Jewish perspective) | 02:38–36:05 | | Impact events & resurrection | 36:05–43:41 | | Interfaith relationships, Christian Science | 43:41–52:31 | | Truth and religion: ice cream vs. insulin | 52:31–55:24 | | Conclusion, upcoming events | 55:24–end |

---

Tone and Delivery

Frank Turek’s tone is urgent, passionate, and occasionally personal—especially regarding the loss of Charlie Kirk and the need for honest searching in matters of faith. He uses scriptural exegesis, historical arguments, and practical advice, punctuated with memorable anecdotes and direct questions for the audience. The episode balances rigorous apologetics with warmth and an encouragement to keep seeking truth, whether in the case of interfaith questions, skepticism about Jesus as Messiah, or discerning among various worldviews.

---

Useful For:
Those wrestling with Jewish-Christian questions, seeking historical evidence for Jesus’s Messiahship, or facing relational dilemmas involving differing faith backgrounds.
For More: See the resources and show notes linked in the episode for in-depth reading and debate references.

---

Transcript

[Frank Turek]

Ladies and gentlemen, an update from the road Last night at UC Berkeley, the folks who say they're fighting for inclusion.

[Guest or Co-host (possibly Rob Schneider or Peter Boghossian)]

Tolerance and diversity did not want to include us and did not want to.

[Frank Turek]

Tolerate us for holding a diverse view.

[Guest or Co-host (possibly Rob Schneider or Peter Boghossian)]

We had a TP USA event last night, me and actor Rob Schneider and also a surprise, Peter Boghossian was there.

[Frank Turek]

For those who don't know Peter, I'm.

[Guest or Co-host (possibly Rob Schneider or Peter Boghossian)]

Going to have him on the show shortly. He is an atheist, however he is trying to save Western civilization and the woke atheists hate him now. Anyway, Peter is a thinker and we're going to have him on the show. Also, Rob was there last night to add some insight to the free speech debate and also he's funny so I'll put the link to that particular event last night in the show notes and the the venue was only about half full even though they sold it out four times over because the folks outside, the protesters who were uttering very vile slurs scared a lot of people away and the University did not want to allow any more people into the venue. Also, a lot of leftists apparently went online to take away the free tickets so the event would not be sold out, but there were hundreds if not thousands of people outside that the University wouldn't let in. However, we of course reached about a thousand people inside and thousands outside and the tour will continue in the fall. The TP USA tour will continue in the fall. We are going to be at the University of Alabama on Thursday, Lord willing, and then the following Thursday at Boise State. All the details are on our website. Thank you for your prayers. This is tiring, but we gotta do it while hearts are tender. So we're gonna keep going. Thanks for all your support. And by the way, make sure you tune in on Friday for the next podcast because we're gonna have the great Greg Laurie on and we're gonna tell you what Greg's about to do in Utah coming this weekend. So don't miss that program.

[Gene]

We' guys there. Thanks for all your prayers. God bless.

[Frank Turek]

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a couple.

[Gene]

Of fantastic questions I want to get to today. One is from a Jewish person asking about the coming of the Messiah.

[Frank Turek]

Let me jump right into that.

[Gene]

This actually comes from Myra. She says, my name is Myra and I've been listening to a few of your podcasts and discussions. I'm sorry for your loss in Charlie Kirk. I discovered him last year and his loss feels gigantic to the conserv conservative movement. I feel it more today with the election of a socialist mayor in New York City that was once my hometown but now feels so far away. I'm a secular Jewish female, and while I believe in one God and God's presence everywhere, I've always been curious learning about different faiths. I'm confused about Christianity.

[Frank Turek]

If Jesus died for mankind's sin and was considered a Messiah, doesn't that mean all the problems and suffering on earth.

[Gene]

Would have ended with his death?

[Frank Turek]

Why is it Jesus must return again.

[Gene]

For the world to finally be at peace? Why wasn't that achieved when he came or when he first lived or when he died? If he died for our sins, why is there plenty of sin 2000 years later?

[Frank Turek]

Why didn't Jesus produce any of his own written work? How can we tell if his disciples actually didn't change his teachings after his death to pursue their own agenda? Why are there so many New Testament Bibles with a lot of changes, but.

[Gene]

There'S only one edition of the Torah? The Torah hasn't changed in thousands of years. Even when Jews were expelled out of Israel 2,000 years ago, the Diaspora Jews still studied and prayed on and prayed on the same Torah.

[Frank Turek]

Thank you.

[Gene]

Looking forward to learning.

[Frank Turek]

Great questions, Mir. I don't know if we'll get to.

[Gene]

All of those here today, but let me address one of them at least off the bat.

[Frank Turek]

How can we tell if the disciples.

[Gene]

Actually didn't change any of the teachings after his death?

[Frank Turek]

Let me clear up.

[Gene]

That the disciples were Jews, all of them Jews. Originally.

[Frank Turek]

There are no Christian sources because they were all Jews. Now, Christian sources came later with the early church fathers, but the people that wrote the New Testament were all Jews. Scholars are starting to admit now even.

[Gene]

Luke was a Jew.

[Frank Turek]

The question is, why would these Jewish believers in Yahweh who thought that they were God's chosen people, and they thought that a man claiming to be God.

[Gene]

Was blasphemy, and they did not think.

[Frank Turek]

One guy would rise from the dead.

[Gene]

In the middle of time. They knew we'd all rise from the dead at the end of time because both Isaiah and Daniel talk about that.

[Frank Turek]

Why would they invent all this to get themselves kicked out of the synagogue and beaten, tortured and killed? That is not a list of perks. You don't invent things that get you kicked out of your community and then beaten, tortured and killed. And oh, by the way, your community.

[Gene]

You thought was with the God of the universe.

[Frank Turek]

You would not do this except for a really good reason. A reason that could turn you from a scared, scattered, skeptical person into someone who turns into one of the most peaceful and effective missionary forces the world has ever known.

[Gene]

In fact, the most peaceful and effective missionary force the world has ever known. Within.

[Frank Turek]

Within 300 years, this group which started with the disciples, had overtaken the Roman Empire not through force, but through service. And pointing toward a man on an empirical claim who had risen from the dead. Not just someone's belief, not just someone's philosophy, but on an empirical claim that.

[Gene]

A man died and rose from the.

[Frank Turek]

Dead, something they didn't think that could happen or would happen from the beginning.

[Gene]

They were Jews, so I don't think.

[Frank Turek]

The disciples would have invented any of this.

[Gene]

And by the way, why would they put forth teachings that were personally inconvenient for them, like, be perfect, as my heavenly Father is perfect, and you can't divorce except for a very specific reason, and you're supposed to remain sexually chaste and you're supposed to now reach out to the Gentiles and on and on.

[Frank Turek]

And on, all these difficult teachings. And they also were very careful to distinguish their words from Jesus's words. They weren't just making up sayings from Jesus. It would have been easy for the.

[Gene]

Apostles to quell some of the controversies that were going on in the church by saying, Jesus said this. And Jesus said that, you know, women in the church and circumcision and baptism and all.

[Frank Turek]

No, no, no, no, they didn't do any of that. They may, they, they taught as if they had their own authority and didn't make up quotes from Jesus.

[Gene]

In fact, Paul himself says, this is.

[Frank Turek]

From me, not the Lord, meaning the.

[Gene]

Lord didn't speak on this, but he's saying he's equally authoritative in, in, in what he was saying at the time.

[Frank Turek]

But let me deal with the, the, the bigger issue, which, which I think is the Messiah.

[Gene]

And this is a great question, you know, why isn't the world at peace?

[Frank Turek]

Well, let me point out. And we'll put this article in the show notes.

[Gene]

Myra.

[Frank Turek]

There'S a lot of evidence that early Judaism, prior to Christ, and this is even out of the Dead Sea.

[Gene]

Scrolls, believed in two Messiahs.

[Frank Turek]

They believed in a peaceful Messiah and then a Messiah that would also triumph.

[Gene]

Like from the line of David. One was from the son of Joseph and one was from the son of David.

[Frank Turek]

Now, not every Jew believed this, but some did. And you could see why from the Scriptures. Let's just look at the, the book of Zachariah. If you go to the book of Zechariah, the prophet Zechariah, and Zechariah, chapter nine says this rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion. Shout in triumph. O daughter of Jerusalem. Behold, your king is coming to you. Your king is coming to you. He is just and endowed with salvation. Humble and mounted on a donkey.

[Gene]

Humble and mounted on a donkey.

[Frank Turek]

Even on a coat, the foal of a donkey.

[Gene]

And he will speak peace to the nations. And his dominion will be from sea to sea and from the river to the ends of the earth.

[Frank Turek]

That seems like a peaceful coming here. But then you go a little bit further in Zechariah and in Zechariah, chapter 12. Let me head on over here to Zechariah, chapter 12 dot here's what happens.

[Gene]

In Zechariah chapter 12. Let me find the exact quotation here. Okay.

[Frank Turek]

This is Zechariah, chapter 12. It says, the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of.

[Gene]

The earth, and who forms the human.

[Frank Turek]

Spirit within a person, declares, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding people's reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem on that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. And then it says in verse nine, on that day I will set out to destroy the nations that attack Jerusalem. And I. This is God speaking obviously. I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced. And they will mourn for him as one mourns from an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one griefs for a firstborn son. Wait a minute. They will look on me, meaning Yahweh.

[Gene]

The one they have pierced.

[Frank Turek]

When was Yahweh pierced?

[Gene]

Yahweh wasn't pierced in the Old Testament, but he is pierced in the New Testament. This appears to be what Zechariah is saying.

[Frank Turek]

He's talking about a second coming. When the Messiah who was pierced comes back during the day of Judgment, and they, meaning his people, will look on me, the one they have pierced. And they will mourn for one, as.

[Gene]

One mourns for the only child. They will grieve bitterly for him, as one grieves for a firstborn son. And this is in the spirit of grace and supplication.

[Frank Turek]

So it seems like there are two Messiahs here. That when Jesus comes us, or when the Messiah.

[Gene]

Let's just keep it Messiah for now.

[Frank Turek]

When the Messiah comes to establish Jerusalem with Power to defeat the other nations. The people are going to look back on that Messiah as the one whom they pierced. Also, if you read a little bit further, in zechariah, in chapter 14, it says this. The day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls. I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to against it. The city will be captured, the house is ransacked and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations as he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem. And the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley and half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

[Gene]

You know, they've discovered in. I think in 1960s, they discovered there.

[Frank Turek]

Is a great fault right through the Mount of Olives. But the Lord himself, his feet are going to come to the mount of Olives according to Zechariah 14. And in Zechariah 12, when he does come back, they're going to look at that Messiah as the one they pierced.

[Gene]

There appears to be two Messiahs here.

[Frank Turek]

But that's not, that's. That's not all. Or two comings anyway. If, if not two Messiahs. Two comings. Let me go back to this other article which I'll put again in the show notes. It says this. So the question is, and by the.

[Gene]

Way, this article is called Two Messiahs in Judaism. Ben David and Ben Joseph by Garrett Smith. As I say, I'm going to put it in the show notes. Can't read the whole thing, it's too long.

[Frank Turek]

But he says this. So the question is, does this king who reigns over all of the earth come gently riding on a donkey in peace or in great wrath, ready to do battle? Is Zechariah contradicting himself? This is a big puzzle for Jewish scholars as well. But this is not the only place in the Scriptures where we find seemingly divergent pictures of Messiah. For example, in Micah 5, for example, Micah 5 tells us he is born in Bethlehem, the city of David. But in Daniel 7, the prophet tells us he will arrive riding on the clouds of heaven. In Isaiah 9 he comes in regal splendor and reigns forever.

[Gene]

And by the way, in Isaiah 9.

[Frank Turek]

It says that this child born will be God. But in Isaiah 53 he is a suffering servant who is anything but Regent. In response to these two seemingly opposite pictures of Messiah, some rabbis declared there must be two Messiahs.

[Gene]

The Messiah Ben Joseph, son of Joseph.

[Frank Turek]

Who would come and suffer, and the Messiah Ben David, son of David, who would come as a conquering king. Another Jewish tradition explains the two contrasting portrayals of Messiah like this. If the people of Israel will be righteous, the Messiah will come in the clouds of heaven. If they will not be righteous, he will come as a poor man riding upon a donkey.

[Gene]

The Sanhedrin 98A says that.

[Frank Turek]

Are such explanations necessary, or is it possible that one individual might fit the bill of both pictures? Someone who would be both a king of peace and a king of power, a humble servant and a conqueror. Conqueror?

[Gene]

If so, what would this extraordinary person look like? And then the article goes on to talk about Yeshua, meaning Jesus is that person. Now, Jesus appears to actually say that.

[Frank Turek]

He'S coming in peace the first time. Why?

[Gene]

Well, Luke, who many of you know was very accurate in what he wrote down, Luke has been checked out in several different ways by archaeologists in particular, and they found Luke is an historian of first rank.

[Frank Turek]

And there's a lot of details in.

[Gene]

Both the Gospel of Luke and the.

[Frank Turek]

Other book he wrote, the Book of Acts, which shows that he was an eyewitness to much of what he writes down, or he at least knew eyewitnesses. Now, Luke doesn't claim to be an eyewitness of Jesus when Jesus was walking the earth, but he does claim to.

[Gene]

Be an eyewitness of going with Paul on some missionary journeys.

[Frank Turek]

However, he obviously has access to eyewitness testimony because much of what he says can be checked out. In any event, if you go to what Luke records about Jesus when he inaugurates his ministry, it's in Luke chapter four, right after he's tempted by Satan.

[Gene]

It says this, beginning in verse 14.

[Frank Turek]

Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. He was teaching in their synagogues and everybody praised him.

[Gene]

Let me stop right here for a second because you may go. This is new to Testament. I believe the New Testament. Okay, look, these documents are written by Jews. Do you think they're going to get anywhere with Jews whom they're trying to reach for Jesus by saying, this guy Jesus was teaching in their synagogues if he really wasn't? Why, why would they say. Why would Luke say in Acts chapter 6, verse 7, that many of the priests became obedient to the faith? Priests? Like who? Like Pharisee priests.

[Frank Turek]

They became obedient to the faith. If Luke had said that and the Pharisee priests had not become obedient to the faith, every. All the Jews would go.

[Gene]

You're.

[Frank Turek]

You're telling lies, Luke.

[Gene]

None of our people became believers, but.

[Frank Turek]

Obviously they must have, otherwise Luke would have lost all credibility. By the way, the first church council which is recorded in Acts chapter 15, was brought by who? Brought by the party of the Pharisees.

[Gene]

They had become Christians, and they were.

[Frank Turek]

Asking the question, do we still have.

[Gene]

To obey the Old Testament law, particularly circumcision and the dietary laws? It's all answered in Acts, chapter 15.

[Frank Turek]

If Luke's making all this up, he's losing all credibility with the very people he's trying to reach. Anyway, back to Luke, chapter four says this. He went to Nazareth.

[Gene]

We were just there a few weeks ago. We went to this area of Nazareth and the cliff. If you keep reading through this passage where we think they tried to drive Jesus off the cliff, but he walked right through the crowd and went on his way because they were mad at him after what he said. But here's what he said. He.

[Frank Turek]

He went into Nazareth where he had been brought up. And on the Sabbath day, he went.

[Gene]

Into the synagogue, as was his custom.

[Frank Turek]

As was his custom.

[Gene]

He went in the synagogue. He did this a lot.

[Frank Turek]

He stood up and read, and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was. He stood up to read, and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written.

[Gene]

And this happens to be from Isaiah, what we would call Now Isaiah, chapter 61. Here's what he says. The spirit of the Lord is on me because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor.

[Frank Turek]

He has sent me to proclaim freedom.

[Gene]

For the prisoners and recovery of sight.

[Frank Turek]

For the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.

[Gene]

Now, ladies and gentlemen, he stopped right there.

[Frank Turek]

That actually is mid verse. He stopped in mid verse. Why? Well, because.

[Gene]

Let's look this up.

[Frank Turek]

I didn't have it up, but I got. I got to bring it up.

[Gene]

This is Luke chapter 61.

[Frank Turek]

If you look, look and look at Luke chapter 61. How does this go on? What does this go on to say? He sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim freedom for the.

[Gene]

Captives to release from darkness and release.

[Frank Turek]

From darkness for the prisoners to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor. Favor. He stops right there. Why does he stop right there? Because the next verse says, and the.

[Gene]

Day of vengeance of our God.

[Frank Turek]

That's his second coming. That's why he stopped right there. And what does he say right after he stops? What does he say right after he stops with that verse? It says, then he rolled up the.

[Gene]

Scroll, gave it back to the attendant, and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. He began by saying to them, today this scripture is fulfilled on your hearing. Whoa. He's saying that he's the Messiah and he came to do these things, that the Spirit of the Lord is on me because he has anointed me to proclaim the good news to the poor, that he has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery for sight of the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor. Then he stopped. What did Jesus do in his first coming? Well, first of all, what are the four problems we have here right now? Sin can hurt us, nature can hurt us, sickness can hurt us, and death can hurt us. That's our ultimate problem. Notice according to the New Testament documents. Again, these documents written by Jews. These documents say that Jesus was sinless.

[Frank Turek]

That Jesus had power over nature.

[Gene]

He calmed the storm, he could turn water into wine. He could walk on water.

[Frank Turek]

He had power over sickness, he could.

[Gene]

Heal the sick, and he had power over death. He could raise other people and even predicted and accomplished his own resurrection from the dead. Jesus is claiming to be the Savior.

[Frank Turek]

The Messiah, because he can solve those four problems that we have here. He doesn't just claim to be the Messiah. He. He proves to be the Messiah through his deeds. And what he's claiming to do here in Isaiah 16 are those four things. He has power over sin, power over.

[Gene]

Nature, power over sickness, power over death.

[Frank Turek]

He's not claiming that he's going to.

[Gene]

Judge everybody right now. That's the second half of the last.

[Frank Turek]

Verse that he left out because there's a second coming.

[Gene]

Now, if you keep reading, all spoke well of him, and then they're sitting around going, hey, isn't this Joseph's son? Like, you know, he's claiming to be carrying this, this prophecy out by Isaiah, really? And then he mentions a couple things about how God did good things for.

[Frank Turek]

The Gentiles and everybody got mad at him and wanted to kill him.

[Gene]

And he walked right through the crowd. His time had not yet come. Now, God was not going to bring world peace in the first coming. He was going to first establish peace with God because we're all at odds with God because of our sin. Because of the evil. And thank you for mentioning the murder of my friend Charlie, Myra.

[Frank Turek]

That's obvious evil. And we've all done evil. Not just murderers, but we've all done evil. If God is infinitely just, and he is, then he can't allow unjust people to go unpunished.

[Gene]

Otherwise he wouldn't be infinitely just. So he has to punish an innocent.

[Frank Turek]

Substitute in our place because he's also infinitely loving and he doesn't want to punish us.

[Gene]

So what does he do? He adds humanity to his deity. He comes to earth and he allows the creatures that rebelled against him, that sinned against him, to torture and kill him so he could take our punishment upon himself. That's why it's the greatest story ever told and it happens to be true that the God of the universe came to save us. And by trusting in him, you can not only be forgiven, but you can be given his righteousness.

[Frank Turek]

That's amazing.

[Gene]

Now, there is going to be a second coming. But let me read you something. And there's a lot more on this online. We'll put links Myra in the show notes to help you navigate all this. One is from a website called realmessiah.com.

[Frank Turek]

Which deals with a lot of questions.

[Gene]

That Jewish people have about Jesus or Yeshua. Like, you know, how could he be the Messiah when you're.

[Frank Turek]

The very question you brought up, you.

[Gene]

Know, world peace hasn't arrived yet. Well, here is what the writer here [e-mail] in this very question. They have an article in this very question about, about why hasn't the Messiah brought world peace? If Jesus is the Messiah, if Yeshua is the Messiah, and, and this man is a Messianic Jew, he says, as a Messianic Jew, I must admit that I find certain rabbinic expectations and assumptions to be lacking. Oh, wait, I gotta cover one thing before I read this, okay? Because it'll only make sense after I cover this. Not just does it appear that there are two Messiahs in the Old Testament. We read from Zechariah and we also read from, from Micah and from Daniel and from Isaiah and from. From Daniel and Isaiah that there's. There's two versions of this Messiah.

[Frank Turek]

There's a suffering servant kind of Messiah, Messiah and also a conquering Messiah. But if you go back and you.

[Gene]

Look at other predictions in the Old Testament or sort of the predictions, the prophecies in total, you see that the Messiah must come from the human race. That's the first prediction in the Bible. It's Genesis 3:15. That the, the one who comes from Eve's offspring will crush the head of the serpent. That is the plan to redeem mankind after the sin of Adam and eve. That's Genesis 3:15.

[Frank Turek]

And this Messiah would come from the line of David.

[Gene]

That's Jeremiah 23:5. And also Jeremiah 33:15.

[Frank Turek]

He will be born in Bethlehem.

[Gene]

We Already mentioned that 1. That's Micah 5. 2.

[Frank Turek]

He will be both God and man.

[Gene]

That's Isaiah 9, 6. We mentioned that. Here's one that is very interesting for the fact that the Messiah had to come about 2000 years ago.

[Frank Turek]

It comes from Malachi 3. 1. It says that the Messiah, the Lord you seek, will visit the temple.

[Gene]

Let me read the passage directly. This is Malachi, or Malachi the Italian prophet, you know, the last Messiah in Last Messiah, the last book in what we call the old testament. Malachi 3 says this.

[Frank Turek]

I will God speaking. I will send my messenger who will prepare the way for me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple. The messenger of the covenant whom you desire will come, says the Lord Almighty.

[Gene]

In other words, the Messiah is going to come to the temple. Temple? There hasn't been a temple since 70 AD. The Messiah had to come prior to 70 AD if the old Testament is correct about this, if Malachi is correct about this, isn't it interesting that 40 years after this happened, approximately 40 years after Yeshua, Jesus came to the temple, the temple was destroyed. And he says in Matthew chapter 24 that all these things will occur before this generation passes away. What's he talking about? Well, there's a near term prediction in Matthew 24 and a longer term prediction in Matthew 24. I think Matthew 24 is showing a near term fulfillment of the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD but it's also revealing a similar fate that's going to come upon the entire world at the end of time.

[Frank Turek]

And that, that is why God would, God would do that. So you would know that his prediction is going to come true. If it's too far off, you're never going to know if it's going to come true. But if it's within a generation, you can actually verify. Yeah, that prophecy happened. Jesus says the temple is going to come down. Not one stone is going to be overturned or not. Or not one stone is going to remain. They're all going to be thrown down. And he says that. And then 40 years later it happens. And by the way, notice nobody in.

[Gene]

The New Testament goes back and says.

[Frank Turek]

Hey look, Jesus was right.

[Gene]

Why do they not say that? Because all the New Testament documents were written prior to 70 A.D. yes, I can make a case. Revelation and John was written prior to 70 AD don't have time to get into the details now, but they're all written prior to 70 AD.

[Frank Turek]

Now, I'm not giving you a full preterist view of what we call eschatology.

[Gene]

Here because obviously there are many things in Revelation that have not occurred yet. Jesus hasn't come back a second time. There isn't world peace, as you point.

[Frank Turek]

Out, Myra, there hasn't been the final.

[Gene]

Battle and all that. We're not, you know, Satan hasn't been bound and we're not in heaven just yet.

[Frank Turek]

There's not a new heavens and a new earth. Not every tear has been wiped away. That's coming. But that's the second coming. This is the first coming. And when he came and said these things are going to happen, and then it happens 40 years later, the people who are alive when he said it are going to go, whoa.

[Gene]

He was right. By the way, do you know that virtually no Christians were killed in the 70 AD overthrow of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple. Why? Because they obeyed Jesus's words. When Jesus said, when you see armies descending on Jerusalem, flee to the mountains. So they did.

[Frank Turek]

By the way, if that was just about the end of the world, would.

[Gene]

It make any sense to flee to the mountains?

[Frank Turek]

No, the mountain. The mountains are going to be destroyed too. There has to be a near term fulfillment to that.

[Gene]

And there was 70 AD so Malachi.

[Frank Turek]

Saying, you got to come. The Lord you seek is going to come to the temple, which is telling us the Messiah had to come prior.

[Gene]

To 70 A.D. also, he's going to.

[Frank Turek]

Die in 33 A.D. if you read Daniel 24, this is admittedly a difficult passage to unpack because it talks in weeks and 400. So you know, so many weeks and 70 sets of weeks and all this.

[Gene]

It really means 490 years. And when you do all the math, it turns out to be that 33 AD is when the Messiah is cut off. And Harold Hohner, who used to teach at Dallas Theological Seminary, did his dissertation on this and we talk about that in the book. I don't have enough faith to be an atheist. And then also this Messiah is a sacrifice.

[Frank Turek]

And I'm not going to read the.

[Gene]

Entire passage, Myra, maybe you have read it, maybe you haven't, but I really urge you to read Isaiah, chapter 52, verse 13, all the way to the end of chapter 53. I'm just going to read a few verses from it about this suffering servant. The first coming of the Messiah. And this again is not from the New Testament, it's from the Old Testament. It says it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer.

[Frank Turek]

And though the Lord makes his life.

[Gene]

A guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days. And the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand after the suffering of his soul. He will see the light of life and be satisfied by his knowledge. My righteous servant will justify many and.

[Frank Turek]

He will bear their iniquities.

[Gene]

He will bear their iniquities. The Messiah bears our iniquities. The Messiah comes, live the per lives the perfect life in our place, and and then he takes our punishment upon himself.

[Frank Turek]

So when you add up all these.

[Gene]

Prophecies, you see as many Jews admitted.

[Frank Turek]

Long before Christ came and even after.

[Gene]

Christ came, that there could be two.

[Frank Turek]

Messiahs, either two separate Messiahs or one Messiah that comes twice, once as a.

[Gene]

Sacrificial Messiah and next as a conquering Messiah. And that's what Christians believe today, that.

[Frank Turek]

He came first in a sacrificial way.

[Gene]

And secondly, he's going to come in a conquering way. And this goes back now to the real Messiah.com section I wanted to read to you. Now it makes sense after we've read Malachi 3. This gentleman writes. As a Messianic Jew, I must admit that I find certain rabbinic expectations and assumptions to be lacking. The destruction of the Temple should be received as a sign that our people failed to acknowledge the arrival of the Messiah.

[Frank Turek]

When you think about it, doesn't it.

[Gene]

Make you wonder why the temple was destroyed 40 years after the death of Yeshua?

[Frank Turek]

This destruction left our people without a central place for sacrifices, without any other means for national atonement. Shouldn't you be asking whether the fact.

[Gene]

That thousands of years have passed without.

[Frank Turek]

Our people welcoming the arrival of the Messiah might actually be an indication that we have been waiting for the wrong Messiah? Is it possible that 20 centuries ago the real Messiah did appear and we missed him? The Talmud raises questions and leaves hints that we should not ignore.

[Gene]

Because even the Talmud talks about two Messiahs now.

[Frank Turek]

People have different interpretations over what that meant. But.

[Gene]

This gets into your question, Myra. Could there be a first coming and a second coming? And when Jesus came the first time.

[Frank Turek]

He made a provision for us to.

[Gene]

Have peace with God.

[Frank Turek]

But he hasn't completely brought peace to the earth because he's still waiting for.

[Gene]

The full number of gentiles to come in the full number of people to become Christians.

[Frank Turek]

And for that he can't end the.

[Gene]

World right now he wants more people to come to him freely. So let me mention a couple of the places you can go to learn more about this. One is real messiah.com we'll put a link in the show notes. Another is the YouTube channel that is called so Be it. And I had Jeff on with me. Jeff is the head of the YouTube channel. He was on our podcast, I want to say six months ago. Just go back and, and, and look that up. Are it has something to do with our Jews coming to the Messiah. In fact, we'll figure it out. We'll find out which one of those podcasts it was and we'll put a link in the show notes to that one as well. All right, so real messiah.com also a debate between Dr. Michael Brown and a reformed rabbi. We'll put that in the show notes as well. Is Jesus the real Messiah? That might help you as well. And let me just point out one thing, a couple things about Jesus. Jesus is the best known Jew in history. In fact, he's the best known person in history.

[Frank Turek]

In fact, he's the most influential person in history. How do you think this could have.

[Gene]

Happened if he hadn't risen from the dead?

[Frank Turek]

Because as you may know, Myra, there.

[Gene]

Have been many people, even in the first century, other people that claim to be the Messiah. You don't know about them, you don't know their names because they died. They didn't rise from the dead. They didn't prove to be the Messiah. Why do we even know the name of Yeshua, of Jesus? Why is he the most influential human being in history? I think it's because the Jews and others that saw him rise from the dead turned the world upside down saying he had risen from the dead when they could have saved themselves by saying it never happened again. They had no motive to make this up. By the way, you, you brought up Charlie in the beginning of this. When I talk about this issue of Jesus rising from the dead, I talk about it being an impact event. What's an impact event? An impact event is an event that is so dramatic that number one, it can turn your perspective around 180 degrees. You might believe one thing and then after the impact event, you're believing exactly the opposite. Just like that. Also impact events you never forget.

[Frank Turek]

You might forget what you had for breakfast this morning. But if you witnessed an impact event, even if it was 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years ago.

[Gene]

If you're old enough, you'll remember it.

[Frank Turek]

For those old timers listening to this.

[Gene]

You remember the Kennedy assassination, then you.

[Frank Turek]

Might remember the Challenger exploded in 1986.

[Gene]

I remember all this. I was only two years old with Kennedy, but my mom was crying hysterically.

[Frank Turek]

And I still can see her in.

[Gene]

My mind right now when she was 26 years old. She's 87 now, but I can see her when she was 26. That's my earliest memory is the Kennedy assassination.

[Frank Turek]

Not, not, not seeing him killed, but.

[Gene]

Seeing my mom distraught in front of a black and white tv.

[Frank Turek]

Then the Challenger exploded.

[Gene]

You might remember that.

[Frank Turek]

That's an impact event. If you're old enough, 9, 11, certainly an impact event in more ways than one. You won't forget where you were and.

[Gene]

What you were doing when you first.

[Frank Turek]

Heard about the news or saw the plane hit the tower. I mean, you'll remember what was going on. Trump being shot, impact event. I remember where I was. I was out in the backyard.

[Gene]

My mom called me on my cell phone.

[Frank Turek]

Trump's been shot. What? What do you mean he's been shot? Is he okay? Well, he's standing up, pumping his fist, got blood running. Okay, well, maybe he's okay. And then for the next 24 hours, we just glued to the TV, like.

[Gene]

What happened, you know? We still don't know what happened. Yeah, we still don't know. And that's leading to conspiracy theories with Charlie. Are you going to forget where you were when you heard what happened to Charlie? I'm never going to forget it. I was there. I was in the car with him to the hospital. You think I'm going to forget any of that? Never. His image is in my mind forever. First thing I think about when I wake up, last thing I think about when I go to bed. And then I normally wake up at 4am and think about it again. Do you think if Jesus really rose from the dead, that would have been an impact event? You think they would have forgotten it? You think they would have had any trouble remembering what happened? Do you think they would have had any trouble remembering what he said and did? No, that's an impact event that people will go to their deaths for, and they did. And they were Jews who adopted a new set of beliefs because of what they witnessed, not because they wanted it to be true. They didn't want to be beaten, tortured and killed. They didn't want to be kicked out of the synagogue or the temple, but because it really happened. Now, about a hundred years ago, a poem was written. Some call it a sermon. It's very short. It was written by James Allen Francis. Just going to read it to you. It's very short. It's about Jesus, the most influential human being in history. And I think it succinctly points out it's really hard to believe that he could be the most influential human being in history unless he really did rise from the dead. Here's this poem called Unsolitary Life. You can look it up. We also have it in the book. I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.

[Frank Turek]

He was born in an obscure village.

[Gene]

The child of a peasant woman.

[Frank Turek]

He grew up in still another village where he worked in a carpenter shop.

[Gene]

Until he was 30.

[Frank Turek]

Then for three years he was an itinerant preacher. He never wrote a book. He never held office. He never had a family or owned a house.

[Gene]

He didn't go to college.

[Frank Turek]

He never visited a big city. He never traveled 200 miles from the place where he was born. He did none of the things one usually associates with greatness. He had no credentials but himself. He was only 33 when the tide of public opinion turned against him. His friends ran away. He was turned over to his enemies and went through the mockery of a trial. He was nailed to a cross between two thieves. While he was dying, his executioners gambled for his clothing, the only property he had on earth. When he was dead, he was laid in a borrowed grave through the pity of a friend. 20, 20 centuries have come and gone, and today he is the central figure.

[Gene]

Of the human race and the leader of mankind's progress.

[Frank Turek]

All the armies that ever marched, all the navies that ever sailed, all the parliaments that ever sat, all the kings that ever reigned put together have not.

[Gene]

Affected the life of man on earth as much as that one solitary life. I don't have enough faith to believe that that happened, that Jesus is the most influential human being in history. If he did not rise from the dead, if he was not the sacrificial Messiah, that's where the evidence points. Myra, I hope you'll take a really good look at it. And real messiah.com has a lot of other objections one might have for being Jewish. When I was at Ohio State last week, I had a conversation with a very nice Jewish student, and we talked a lot about Israel, Hamas and all that. But I also asked her to check into the resurrection. Because if Christianity were true, would you become a Christian? If Yeshua is really the Messiah, would you trust in him? That's the question I know it creates a lot of problems personally and in the family.

[Frank Turek]

You know, we're Jews, we don't believe in Jesus.

[Gene]

Jesus was the most well known Jew and in history. Would you follow the truth? Would you follow God if he is truly God? That's the question. So please look at this intently. Our book I Don't have Enough Faith to be an Atheist. Might be helpful to you. Go to real messiah.com that'll be helpful to you. The other links that we put we'll put in the show notes hopefully will be helpful as well. So thank you. Great questions, Myra. I hope that was helpful. And let me deal with another question. This comes from a gentleman whose son. Let me just read it to you. I need your help. My son is dating a girl whose family belongs to Christian Science. I am born again Christian and we belong to a local non denominational Pentecostal type of church. My son also used to go to church and after moving to another state he started to date this girl. This girl, whatever that means.

[Frank Turek]

I have been bombarded.

[Gene]

Oh, this girl who's the Christian Scientist.

[Frank Turek]

I've been barded with lots of materials.

[Gene]

From Christian Science which does not make any sense to me. Yeah, well it won't because it's not really all that sensible.

[Frank Turek]

Some of them like death and sin, say, say death and sin are illusional. Jesus is a man and not God. All diseases are of the mind and can be cured by prayers. But my question to you is, how do I handle this situation? My son is totally brainwashed and is parroting all of what they say. He loves this girl very much and does not want to break this relationship. Because of this, my wife, my. Myself and my wife are shattered.

[Gene]

Please help. Okay, this happens a lot. Look, God gives us one basic requirement for who we pick as a. As a spouse. And that is just make sure whoever you pick as a spouse is a believer. Someone who's in the Lord because why? Well, if you don't pick somebody in the Lord, first of all, you're going to have a lot of trouble. The marriage is hard enough already.

[Frank Turek]

You put two broken people in one.

[Gene]

Relationship, there's going to be trouble.

[Frank Turek]

But two broken people in one relationship are going in different directions. Theologically, that's even more trouble.

[Gene]

And marriage, according to the Christian viewpoint.

[Frank Turek]

Is an illustration of our ultimate union with Christ. The Bible starts with a wedding.

[Gene]

It ends with a wedding.

[Frank Turek]

And you're invited, by the way. You're invited. In fact, one person said this. You want to sum up the whole Bible in five words.

[Gene]

God no, let me put it another way.

[Frank Turek]

Jesus wants to marry you. That's where this is all heading. Jesus wants to marry you. And our marriage here is an ultimate.

[Gene]

Illustration, or I should put it another.

[Frank Turek]

Way, our marriage here is an illustration.

[Gene]

Of our ultimate marriage to Jesus because the church is the bride of Christ. All right. With that said, this is why it's dangerous to date people who are not believers. Because we will allow our feelings for someone to overpower what we believe about God. My mentor, Dr. Norman Geiser, used to always say that fraternity will almost overpower, almost always overcome theology. What did he mean by that?

[Frank Turek]

That our relationships with people will always.

[Gene]

Almost always overcome our relationship with God.

[Frank Turek]

And Jesus, he doesn't think this is the right thing. He's saying this is the wrong thing because we ought to be following Jesus over even what our family says. Remember Jesus said, I didn't come to bring peace, I came to bring a sword. It's going to divide mother and daughter, father and son. You never hear those passages preached, but you know those passages are true because many of you are divided in your own family over Jesus.

[Gene]

And you should be, you should be following Jesus.

[Frank Turek]

If you want to follow me, you must deny yourself and take up your cross. You got to lose your life to find it.

[Gene]

All these paradoxes in the Christian faith, right?

[Frank Turek]

He will be last, will be first, right? These are all things we go, oh.

[Gene]

I, I don't know if that's right.

[Frank Turek]

It's right. Your love for Jesus ought to be, ought to be supreme. Anything else is idolatry. We can idolize good things, great things.

[Gene]

They'Re just not the best things.

[Frank Turek]

Now we're not saying love your family less, we're saying love Jesus more.

[Gene]

And if you love Jesus more, you'll.

[Frank Turek]

Follow him now with your son. Now I would ask questions, the questions I ask anybody. If historic orthodox Christianity were true, would you become a Christian if God wanted you to marry a Christian? Not a Christian Scientist, not a Jehovah's Witness, not somebody else, not a non believer, not a Muslim, not some other, not a Hindu, not. Would you follow him?

[Gene]

Oh, that's going to be a hard.

[Frank Turek]

Question, but ask it. I was having a discussion with somebody.

[Gene]

Recently and I, and they're hung up on abortion and, and same sex marriage. They think those are good things. And I texted him and I said, if God wanted you not to abort your children and wanted people to only.

[Frank Turek]

Have sex inside of marriage of a man and a woman, would you obey him?

[Gene]

Wouldn't answer the question. They said something like, well.

[Frank Turek]

That'S a strange way of asking, why are you asking that?

[Gene]

And I said, because it reveals who your true gods are. If your gods are abortion and same sex marriage, in other words, if your gods are your own convenience and your own sexual proclivities, then it doesn't matter what Jesus says, doesn't matter what God says, doesn't matter what anyone says. You're the authority, not your creator. And so let's just be honest about.

[Frank Turek]

It, the evidence doesn't matter.

[Gene]

What matters is what you want.

[Frank Turek]

Okay, you have the free will to do that.

[Gene]

But don't expect God to force you into heaven against your will. If you don't want him now, you're not going to want him in eternity. He'll respect your free choice. You'll be separated from Him. Not a good place to be, but a place you've chosen.

[Frank Turek]

So I would ask a lot of.

[Gene]

Questions of your son.

[Frank Turek]

And by the way, missionary dating, very dangerous. Also notice that missionary dating is always.

[Gene]

Done for the goal of, of the.

[Frank Turek]

Relationship, not the goal of having a.

[Gene]

Person become a Christian. That's why it's done.

[Frank Turek]

I mean, people don't date people they're not really interested in in order to get them to become a Christian.

[Gene]

First of all, that'd be cruel anyway.

[Frank Turek]

But secondly, the real motivation is the relationship, not the salvation of the person.

[Gene]

That's why it's problematic because you know.

[Frank Turek]

What you're going to wind up doing? You're going to wind up building an altar to the person you now love who's not a Christian.

[Gene]

And that means it's going to be an alter to baal, not to Yahweh. So as a father, as a parent, I think just asking a lot of questions is the way forward. Why do you think I, I know you love, I know you love her. Is she open to becoming a Christian?

[Frank Turek]

Have you asked her if Christianity were true?

[Gene]

Would you become a Christian and then.

[Frank Turek]

Investigate some of these beliefs which are.

[Gene]

Just completely counterintuitive and appear to be false? And a resource you can go to with regard to Christian science is watchmenfellowship.org they also have other different belief systems on there like Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons and Muslims and all this Watchmen Fellowship. Our friends down there have great resources on that. So check all that out there. That will be helpful. So ask a lot of questions, that's all I can say. Do a lot of praying and isn't it interesting, a lot of these sort of Christian heresies, if you will. Came up in the 1800s for some reason. Christian Science, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, they all came up in the 1800s. I haven't investigated why, but that's interesting. So please, pray, investigate watchmenfellowship.org and ask a lot of questions and say, look, my son, I need to tell you what you. You need to hear, not what you want to hear, because. And she may be a great woman, but I. I can tell you there's going to be a of lot, lot of trouble if you have different worldviews. And if you're going to convert to Christian Science, you ought to first find out if that's true.

[Frank Turek]

Look, too many people think religion is.

[Gene]

Like ice cream rather than insulin. To borrow a metaphor from my friend Greg Kokel.

[Frank Turek]

Is religion like ice cream? It's like a flavor. Whatever you just like, it's a preference. Or is it really like insulin, which means it's what you need if you're a diabetic religion. Unfortunately, people think it's like ice cream.

[Gene]

It's a preference.

[Frank Turek]

Whatever works for you. You do that.

[Gene]

That's nonsense. Why?

[Frank Turek]

Look, either there is a God or he isn't. Either Jesus rose from the dead or he didn't. Either Christianity is true or it isn't. It's not a preference, it's a statement of fact. Either Islam is true or it isn't. Either Hinduism's true or it isn't. Either Mormonism's true or it isn't either Jehovah's Witnesses or you can do it with any religion. It's not a preference. It's like insulin. And why is it with almost every area of life, we don't treat it like a preference? We don't treat other aspects of life like a preference. You know, you don't go to the doctor and the doctor goes, you know.

[Gene]

You got cancer and you go, oh, well, what's the treatment? Oh, it doesn't matter.

[Frank Turek]

Whatever you prefer. You go, what? No, no, no. Doc, Doc, Doc, Doc. I need the cure. I don't know what the cure is. You got to tell me the truth. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Whatever you want is fine. Why don't you start smoking cigarettes? That might kill it. What? Doc, Doc, no. Well, ladies and gentlemen, the truth is.

[Gene]

Everybody has a cancer.

[Frank Turek]

It's known as sin. And the only solution to it is, is not for your good deeds to outweigh your bad deeds. Even if that were the case, you're still a sinner. You've still done in unjust things and There's a being out there who is infinitely just. You're still gonna need somebody to pay for those sins. Who's gonna do it? Looks on two possibilities. You're going to pay for your own sins or Jesus is going to pay for them.

[Gene]

So.

[Frank Turek]

Don'T buy into this idea that religion is a preference. Religions make claims about reality just like doctors do. You know, chemo can cure this kind of cancer. Okay, good, let's get chemo. Jesus can cure your sins, can cure what you have. You have a rap sheet a mile long and someone needs to pay. He'll pay it for you. These.

[Gene]

Are issues of fact, they're not issues of preference. It's like insulin, not ice cream.

[Frank Turek]

You'd never say to a diabetic, I'm going to give you ice cream to treat your diabetes. You're going to go, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Gene]

Give me the insulin. Okay.

[Frank Turek]

All right.

[Gene]

A couple other quick things I gotta mention. We're coming up, University of Alabama, Lord willing, this Thursday. Check our website.

[Frank Turek]

Next week, gonna be, oh, the 17th. We're gonna be re. We're gonna be renewing or continuing the Bible you Never Knew series, 7:30pm Eastern Time. We're going to be up in Cornelius, North Carolina at Freedom House Church. 7:30pm Everybody's welcome.

[Gene]

It'll also be live streamed. So we're showing all of these amazing connections from the Old Testament to Jesus. It's the Bible you never knew. Most people don't know this stuff, and when you see it, you go, wow, there's a divine hand behind the Bible. I never knew this stuff, so I didn't know it either until studying it recently. So come to that if you can. If not, watch it.

[Frank Turek]

It's only going to be on YouTube.

[Gene]

For about a week, then it's taken down.

[Frank Turek]

It'll ultimately be turned into a course. That's the 17th. Then on the 20th, when I'm 64, I'm going to be in Boise, Idaho for Boise State University. And then the next night going to be at a church there. I don't have the church in front.

[Gene]

Of me, but it's on our YouTube channel. Not YouTube channel. It's on our, our event page@cross examine.org me speaking there on the 21st.

[Frank Turek]

So go there and please pray as.

[Gene]

We go to all these places, particularly the universities. Hearts are still tender since Charlie's death. And we want to make sure that we do our best that we can to show them that there is a good God, even though this evil thing can occur. And he came to save us from that evil. In fact, Christianity is the answer to the problem of evil. And let me reiterate one other thing.

[Frank Turek]

I, I seem to have to say.

[Gene]

This so many times, and either people don't hear it or they don't want to hear it. I know there's a lot of consternation among some people regarding the investigation into Charlie's death. It's okay to ask question questions. It's not okay to insinuate that certain people are guilty when you have no evidence for that.

[Frank Turek]

Possibilities are not evidence. The FBI is not going to reveal what they have.

[Gene]

Why?

[Frank Turek]

Because if they do, they're going to.

[Gene]

Jeopardize finding and convicting the real killer. Let me give you an example of this.

[Frank Turek]

And this is from J. Warner Wallace, the cold case homicide detective.

[Gene]

You can go back.

[Frank Turek]

We'll put his podcast that we did with him in the show Notes as well. You can go back and see what he said about this because he's been on scores of these prosecutions. They will not reveal what they have now because if they do, they're going to jeopardize their case. If they come out and say, hey, we're looking at a second shooter right now. If they were to say that and then somebody comes forward and says, oh, yeah, I saw the second shooter. They don't know if that guy really saw the second shooter or he just.

[Gene]

Wants a name for himself. He's just making this up to be the center of attention.

[Frank Turek]

They'll also could possibly taint the jury. They could tip off the defense. Their job is to get a conviction, which means they're going to say as little as possible.

[Gene]

And do you really think that Cash Patel, the head of the FBI, and.

[Frank Turek]

Dan Bongino, his assistant, who were personal friends of Charlie, Charlie had their cell phone numbers. They used to text one another all the time. Do you think they're not going to get to the bottom of this or they're going to not at least attempt to get to the bottom of this? Do you think they're not going to check into these conspiracy theories? They are. They've already checked into one of them. I know because I was the subject.

[Gene]

Of one of them.

[Frank Turek]

They called me about the, you know, signaling the guy, or I was a signal guy signaling the shooter.

[Gene]

So stupid. Anyway.

[Frank Turek]

Why would a guy looking, looking through a scope 200 yards away. First of all, he couldn't see me. I'm 25ft off Charlie's right elbow. He couldn't see me looking through a scope. And he doesn't need to see me. He knows who Charlie Kirk is. He's the guy under the tent with the microphone. But they had to ask me about it.

[Gene]

Why? Because maybe the defense is going to bring this up. Did you check into this conspiracy theory?

[Frank Turek]

Did you check into the second shooter conspiracy? Did you check into this? Did you check into that? And by the way, an autopsy has been done. They're not going to release that until.

[Gene]

They have to either.

[Frank Turek]

Even Erica said it the other night on Fox News.

[Gene]

It's.

[Frank Turek]

It's state law. You have to do an autopsy when there's a murder. Oh, they covered up the investigation site. What do you think they're going to do after they investigated the whole thing? They had to clean it up. What, are they going to leave blood all over? Oh, there was no blood, Let me tell you.

[Gene]

I know personally, there was blood everywhere because. Well, that's all I'm going to say. All right, so be reasonable. Ask as many questions as you want, but don't insinuate people are guilty without evidence. We did a whole podcast on this last week. Charlie Kirk conspiracy theories that lead to death threats. Yeah, Mikey McCoy and others are getting death threats. I'm getting what appear to be death threats as well. A lot of unstable people out there ask as many questions. Don't insinuate people are guilty unless you have really strong evidence. And so far I haven't seen it. You have possibilities. You don't have evidence. And if it turns out that some of these conspiracy theories are correct, I think we're going to get to the bottom of it. But the FBI isn't going to reveal it beforehand. That would hurt their case. All right, friends, great being with you. I hope to see at University of Alabama. We'll be live streamed as well this Thursday and then next week, all Lord willing.

[Frank Turek]

We don't know if we'll be here tomorrow.

[Gene]

That's what Gene says.

[Frank Turek]

Don't tell people you're going to do.

[Gene]

This and do that. It's always Lord willing. See you November 20th, Lord willing, and November 21st, and hopefully we'll get a little break for Thanksgiving. Lot to be thankful for. By the way, you can't be happy unless you're thankful. Remember that. Great being with you. God bless. See you next time.