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I Don't Have Enough FAITH to Be an ATHEIST
Unpopular Opinion (But It's True): Every Child Deserves Both Mom and Dad with Katy Faust
00:49:56
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- [00:03]
A
Ladies and gentlemen, there's a $300,000 matching gift to cross examine, which means any money you give from now to the end of the year will be doubled. So please go to crossexamine.org click on donate. A hundred percent of your donations go to ministry, 0% to buildings. Thank you so much. Ladies and gentlemen, a lot of you are not, not going to like what we're going to say here on this podcast. I can tell you right now, much of what we are going to say is going to be very unpopular with the culture. So before I get into this, I want to ask a question of you. Who is the authority in your life? How do you make decisions? Is personal choice, whatever you want to do, really the way that you go, or do you actually bow to a higher authority? Because what we're going to talk about today is so unpopular in many circles, particularly the cultures circles, that you might have to check yourself. Because if what we're about to say is biblical and you call yourself a Christian, you're going to have to agree with what we're going to say, even though the culture and maybe even your own personal sentiment is against what we're going to say today. So with that set up, I want to start in First Peter, chapter two, because in First Peter, chapter two, Peter's talking about the fact that Christ is the cornerstone. And for believers, we say, that's great. Anyone who believes in him will not be put to shame. That's what verse six says. First Peter, chapter two, verse six, and then verse seven says this. So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, the stone that the builders rejected and the stone is Jesus, has become the cornerstone and a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense. A rock of offense. What we say today, if it offends you, it might be because you don't have a biblical worldview, at least not one that is complete. And somebody who is extremely articulate on. On the issues we're going to talk about today is my guest. You may have heard of Katie Faust. Katie really came to light by being outed in about 2014. She was doing blogs anonymously and she was outed by a gay activist. And what someone meant for evil actually turned out to be for good because Katie now is leading the charge, basically for the rights of children. Her website is called thembeforeus.com them before us.com. she comes all the way from the People's Republic of Seattle. So here she is, ladies and gentlemen, the great Katie. Fast enough. Applause crowd thank you very much, Katie.
- [03:18]
B
Settle down. Settle down, people.
- [03:20]
A
Settle down. I know she's great, but. Ladies and gentlemen, enough of the applause. Katie, I've known about your ministry for a while. This first time we've had you on the show. Give us an overview of what happened to you in about 2014 and how it led to where you are now, and then we'll get into the topic of the day.
- [03:38]
B
Yeah, I was enraged when I saw how the gay marriage narrative was victimizing children, in essence, pushing this new adult ideology on the backs of child loss. Because when they did choose to talk about children in the marriage debate, it was simply to say that kids love having two moms or two dads, when the reality is a child being raised by two moms is a child who has lost their father, and a child being raised by two dads is a child who has lost their mother. And as a woman who has worked with kids for, you know, at that point, two decades in youth ministry and in the adoption world, and as a mom myself, I knew that there was one thing that kids really care about, and it's whether or not their mother or father loved them and whether or not their mother or father loved each other. In fact, there were very few wounds that a child could experience that hurt them longer and deeper and debilitated them more than their mother or father being absent from their life. So that is what got me off the couch and behind the keyboard when it came to talking about why marriage specifically was a matter of justice for children and how children have a right to their own mom and dad. And if you get that correct, you solve nearly every social issue that we're facing today. But I also live in Seattle, and my husband was a pastor, and my children go to school around these parts. And I know what these people will do to you if they can get their hands on you. So I was blogging anonymously. I was outed by a gay blogger that had many more times followers than I had. And in essence, he doxxed the members of my church. He put their names and address on his giant blog, and in essence said, you know, go get them. And our church was flooded with negative Yelp reviews, and there was, you know, threats against specific members. I mean, it was really terrible. And so, wait, wait, wait.
- [05:20]
A
The folks who are saying they're fighting for inclusion, tolerance, and diversity did not include you and did not tolerate you for holding a diverse view.
- [05:27]
B
It was a very.
- [05:28]
A
Katie.
- [05:28]
B
It was a very loving public threat. Let's just put it that way. Okay, okay. So Anyway, they outed me. I decided, you know, well, that now that I wasn't blogging anonymously anymore, my own name was forced into the public. I was able to do things that I couldn't do as an anonymous blogger, like submit amicus briefs to the Supreme Court or lead workshops at the United nations, or travel to Korea or Taiwan or Australia to lobby on behalf of children and visit state level lawmakers to talk about different bills and why they were harming kids. And then ultimately, I really felt led to give children formal representation in matters of marriage and family. Divorce, same sex parenting, the definition of parentage, birth certificates, adoption, reproductive technologies, ivf, surrogacy, throuples, the rise of cohabitation. If it intersects with marriage and family, ultimately it is a matter of justice for children. But we've never had that kind of representation for kids. We've got, thank God, hundreds of organizations advocating for children's right to life. We don't have another organization advocating for children's right to be known and loved by both their mother and father. And if you can get that right, you solve nearly every problem that our society is facing.
- [06:42]
A
Yes, in fact, unpack that for us because people don't understand how important the biological two parent family is to kids and then therefore society. Because if that breaks down the biological two parent family, all sorts of crime and social problems arise. Can you unpack that for us a little bit, Katie?
- [07:02]
B
Yeah. Sometimes when I go speak at conferences or to groups of students, I ask them a multiple choice question. If you could solve one of these issues, which one would it be? And then I give them some options. Teen homelessness, child poverty, teen suicide, teen pregnancy, high school dropout rates, high incarceration rates. Choose one and you know, I'll get some people volunteering for, you know, I'd like to. The suicide thing is really, oh no, I'm burdened by child poverty. Oh, I volunteered, you know, to help at risk students. And then I say, how many of you guys had a hard time choosing? How many of you wanted an all of the above option? And everybody raises their hand because all of us are just absolutely burdened by the ways that children are falling prey to these social ills. And I said, there is one, there is one thing you can do. There is an all of the above option here, and that is unite children to the two people to whom they have a natural right, their own mother and father. Why is that? Because there's something that all of these different at risk demographics have in common, and that is family breakdown and absent fathers. 90% of teens on the street don't have a dad. 70 to 85% of inmates in state run institutions grew up fatherless. 71% of teen pregnancies fatherless, 63% of teen suicides fatherless. 71% of high school dropouts, fatherless. I mean you cannot find a social ill that does not ultimately lead back to children being denied their right to their mother and father. The problem with this is that even if you throw hundreds of millions of dollars at these problems like we have tried to for the last couple decades, it doesn't work. It is not a monetary problem, it's not a government problem. It is a solution that can only be solved when individual adults reorient their sexual decisions, their relational decisions and their adult choices around the fundamental rights and needs of children. And unfortunately in our current day culture, sexual autonomy in is our functional God. And so we are challenging one of the idols around which people are the most fiercely protective.
- [09:00]
A
Yeah, that's the case certainly. That's the idol that I want to do whatever I want to do with whomever want to do it sexually. And of course that problem leads to so many other problems or that that state of mind leads to so many other problems as you pointed out. The question is how do we reorient people toward that? And part of the answer is the law is a great teacher. And we're going to unpack that more after the break. But Katie, before we go to the break, reveal to our audience how you were brought up. Just because it's not normal or it's not a biological two parent family.
- [09:46]
B
Yeah, I was, I wasn't raised as a Christian, not a conservative, didn't really know anything about God at all when I was growing up. My parents were very secular. Then they divorced when I was 10. My dad dated and remarried. My mom repartnered with a woman. And so I am the product of that modern family that I critique so seriously.
- [10:04]
A
And we're going to get much more of the critique right after the break with the great Katie Faust. Website is them before us.com them before us.com will unpack that further. You're listening to I Don't have Enough Faith to be an Atheist on the American Family Radio Network and other stations around the country. Don't go anywhere.
- [10:29]
If you could change one thing that people do in their lives, what would it be and why? Because my guest today, Katie Faust, says that more problems arise from one particular behavior than virtually any other behavior in our society and it hurts kids the most. Katie what is that behavior?
- [10:53]
B
The behavior is putting us, the adults, before them, the children. It's prioritizing what adults want above what children need. That is it. And it actually goes.
- [11:05]
Completely against the biblical mandate that we have for the strong to sacrifice for the weak. I mean, that is what we see not just explicitly stated in Scripture, but also cosmically demonstrated for us by our own Savior. And instead, in the world of marriage and family, we are forcing the weak children to sacrifice for the strong adults. And it's not just the gays that are doing it. It's everybody. It is people that are employing IVF and destroying many more little lives than abortion does. Ann is married couples who are refusing to do the hard work of resolving their conflict and instead choosing easy, no fault divorce. It is same sex attracted people who choose to form a family that requires a child to be motherless or fatherless. It is fertile couples that have an unplanned pregnancy who would rather prioritize their own desires or dreams or educational aspirations above the child's right. There's really no demographic of adults that is not saying it's us before them, it's the adults before the kids. And I'll tell you what that is at the bottom of pretty much every social ill that we're facing today.
- [12:12]
A
Now, did, did any of your upbringing, the fact that your parents divorced at 10 and then your father got another partner and your mother got a woman partner, how did that affect you growing up and did that in any way encourage you to be such an advocate for children?
- [12:31]
B
I would say it was probably the reverse because I actually wanted desperately to keep both of those relationships, to stay in relationship with my father and my mother. I was close to them before their divorce, and thank God I was close to both of them after the divorce, even though having different partners or spouses in their life greatly complicated my upbringing. Like any child of divorce will be able to understand, instability is a fixture of a child's life post divorce, navigating new dynamics, new partners or spous. Maybe if they bring another child into the home, maybe if they have another child and then that marriage breaks down and then the moves. I mean, like, it is not an easy life to be a child of divorce. But I will say that one of the primary motivations that I had was I loved my mom and dad and I never wanted to lose either one of them. And so that kept me from speaking up a lot of the time because I knew that they were not on the same page as me when it came to these ideas about Biological reality and the benefit that a child's own married, permanently married mother and father bring to a child's life. Even though I think both of them would recognize that there was significant loss and instability that I experienced because of their choices on the whole, they probably thought, well, she turned out really well. So I guess, you know, it's all okay. So that kept me, I think, from speaking up. And I don't think that I suffered some kind of father wound. I mean, if you Google Katie Faust, you might say, you know, woman raised by lesbians supports traditional marriage. But I don't consider my mother's partner to be my mother, but I do consider her to be my friend. I've never really had significant conflict between my mom and her partner. They were obviously a big part of my life in adolescence. And when I got married, they came to my wedding and when I had kids, they've always been a part of my children's life. So there's not some big, like, animus or phobia or hatred or discomfort between me and them. In fact, speaking up, it was gonna be costly in the sense that I didn't want to bring conflict or turmoil to their life, which is one of the reasons why I was blogging anonymously. I didn't want what I that they knew about, but I didn't want it to spill over and become their problem. So this is not like some kind of personal crusade because I've been so damaged and wounded. It is a justice crusade because I understand how harmed children are when their mother or father is cut out of their life intentionally and sometimes because that is now a new standard for familial progress.
- [14:55]
A
Let me ask you then, I know that there are some Christian parents will say.
- [15:02]
When we have kids, I'm sorry, but if you're in a same sex relationship, you can't be part of our lives. I can't demonstrate that relationship or model that relationship to our children. How have you navigated that? What are your thoughts on that?
- [15:19]
B
Well, I have a whole book that I co authored with Stacey Manning called Raising Conservative Kids in a Woke City. And it's really just our worldview philosophy. How do you pass on your worldview when nothing, not the schools, not your friends, not even your extended family, not your neighborhood, not online resources, not in person resources are reflecting back your values. And so we do talk through a lot of these challenges. I also specifically just wrote a substack on what do you say to your young kids when your brother and his new male boyfriend are coming over for Thanksgiving or your dad, who's now in his 60s, is coming for Christmas and he wants you to make up a bedroom for him and his new girlfriend, even though he's only been divorced from your mother for three years and she's five years older than you. Like, what do you do with that kind of thing? Because you still want a relationship with the people that you love, and yet your primary duty is raising your children. And sometimes those relationships are going to come into conflict, right? Your job to honor or your calling to honor your parents, your longing to love your siblings, but your duty to raise your children in love and admonition of the Lord. And I would say that that actually is a calibration that needs to be made depending on the ages of your kids. So kids that are in elementary school, that are like, 10 and younger, you're going to take much more of a protective stance. You're going to filter out messages or people that are seeking to evangelize them into a worldview that goes counter to what the Bible says. You can still have them in your life, but you do need to have very frank conversations with them. You're welcome to come to Thanksgiving with us. We are teaching our children about marriage, being between one man and one woman for life, because that's good for children, men and women and all of society, and it honors God. So we'd love to have you here. I want you to have a relationship with me and my kids, but please, no pda and do not have any conversations with my children without me being there. You just need to say it really straight. Once your kids get to be in middle school, then that is what Stacy and I call the great equipping. You're the one that tells them about the distortions. They know more about surgical and chemical abortions, about socialism, about gay marriage, about transgenderism than any of their friends. They are the expert. They are the authority on that in their friend group. And that, that is those three years where I say, you're going to know more about this than anyone else. And then in high school, you step back. That is the rhetoric phase, where you're allowing them to work out what they believe. You lean out when it comes to teaching and equipping and telling. You lean way in when it comes to emotional connection and physical presence so that you function as a consultant with them. And in those situations, I find that unbelieving family and friends actually is the perfect catalyst to have those conversations while your kids are still under your roof, especially when you've laid a strong foundation of the Good, true, and beautiful in elementary school.
- [18:04]
A
So are you suggesting that when they're in high school, you're still not. You're not teaching them why Christianity is true, you're not teaching them evidence. You're not doing any of that?
- [18:13]
B
I'm saying that the primary teaching of the good, true and beautiful has to happen in the elementary school phase. We sort of follow that trivium process, the grammar phase, where they are sponging everything up. You stuff them full of apology, apologetics and Bible memory and the truth about the American founding and economics and biological reality. Middle school is the time to introduce the competing ideas. That is the primary time where you're gonna say, look, here's the four different stages of gender transition and why each of them is so harmful and so damaging. If you think that you're gonna wait until high school to say, I wanna talk to you about transgenderism, you're cooked because somebody else has gotten to the kid first. And developmentally, they're not at the place where they necessarily wanna be hearing from mom and dad about, like, hey, listen to this podcast with me. Right? At that point, you should have done most of the telling the truth, most of the equipping about the worldview distortions. And by high school, you now have such a strong foundation with your child that they know the basics, they know the fundamentals, they understand the distortions, and they feel so emotionally close to you that you're not up in their business. In sophomore year, when their teacher asked them to write a more just constitution, they understand that there's a problem with that, and they know they can come back to you and consult with you if they want to know exactly how to execute that assignment without compromising on their morals.
- [19:29]
A
Okay, so how has your family reacted, say, your mom and her partner, lesbian partner, to you, saying, when my kids are young, you can't show any pda. We're not going to talk about the fact that you're in some sort of relationship. How have they dealt with that?
- [19:49]
B
They've been very respectful. And let me be clear. Nobody in my family or my husband's family are on the same page worldview with us. So without all of our extended family, we've had to have challenging conversations with every single one of them at different points on different issues, whether it is, like, climate alarmism or whether it is the issues of morality or whether it is, you know, Trump arrangement system, which syndrome, which. We're not like, crazy Trump fans, but, like, you can't just come in, especially when our kids are really Little. And talk about how Republicans are responsible for every rise of ocean temperature that there exists. Like we've always said, you can come in.
- [20:24]
A
I would hope so. It's really cold off of Seattle. I wish it would warm up a little bit. Sorry, go ahead.
- [20:29]
B
Beach is clear for me. Okay. I mean, like, so we've had to have conversations of, you can talk with us about this. And then I've even said to them, when my kids are older, when they're middle schoolers, I'll, I will let them have those conversations with you. We'll have it together. I want them to know what you think. And when they're high schoolers, have at it. I mean, like by then they're going to be able to stand on their own. And they have. I'm like, all of my kids are high school, college, or graduated now, and that's exactly how it's gone. So you can do this on the foundation of a lot of love and connection and sacrifice and service. So that when you say, here's the boundaries, and there have been a few times with some of them where I've said, if you ever talk to my children in private again about something that contradicts what I believe, you will no longer have access to them. Do you understand? Every now and then we've had to have that conversation. But it is on the foundation of me being really open hearted and showing that I want them to be involved in a way that is good for my kids especially.
- [21:21]
A
Well, with all credit then to your mom and her partner. At least they're open enough to realize that it's your responsibility to bring up your children. And they're not militant in the sense that you're evil, Katie, because you're rational in your approach and you're saying that you have a responsibility to bring up your kids in the truth. And deep down people know men were made for women and women were made for men. And if we break that down, which unfortunately we have in our culture, we get all these negative results that you're talking about.
- [21:58]
B
I, I also, they're kind of like old school lesbians too, to be honest. They're not like the crazy blue haired activists that think that men should be able to go into women's bathrooms and locker rooms and changing rooms. And I think that we disagree politically on some things. And I don't speak, I never speak for them. You know, that's their job, to say what they believe. But, but neither of them would disagree that mothers and fathers matter and that kids need both and they benefit from a mom and a dad. So there's a lot of areas where we find worldview agreement and we've been able to have good conversations on the things that we agree about and allow disagreement to be. And they also see my kids and know they see kids out there and know that our kids are doing well. And a lot of it is because we have provided different kinds of structure, different kinds of training, different kinds of investment and connection in ways that a lot of their friends, children and grandchildren have not. So they can see the fruits and they appreciate the fruits.
- [22:57]
A
Tell them, tell our audience again about that book you mentioned earlier.
- [23:01]
B
It's called Raising Conservative Kids in a Woke City that I co authored with Stacey Manning. Great information, but also very good for a fantastic laugh as well.
- [23:11]
A
Okay, good. Check that out, ladies and gentlemen. Also go to them before them, before us.com Katie Foust also has a program in the American Family Radio Network. We'll tell you that. Tell you about that right after the break. Don't go anywhere. You're listening to I Don't have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist with me, Frank Turek back after the break.
- [23:32]
Students across America are more open to the truth of Christianity than ever before. And Dr. Frank Turek is taking the powerful evidence for God to campuses like UC Berkeley, the University of Georgia, Ohio State and Alabama, reaching thousands in person and millions more online. But every event now requires costly security to keep students safe and Cross Examine never charges students to attend. That's why we urgently need your support. The culture is dark, but hearts are open. Help keep the light of truth shining by donating today@crossexamine.org that's cross examined with a D on the end.org.
- [24:15]
Who is your authority? How do you make decisions? Is it just your gut? Is it just what the culture wants? Is it just what you want personally or are you answering to a higher authority? And by the way, if you say, no, I don't have a higher authority, then everything you say is just a matter of preference. And then you therefore have no, no grounding for rights. You might think you have rights, but if there is no God, there are no rights. It's just your opinion. So it's kind of self defeating to say I just get to do whatever I want and you have to accept what I do because, no, we don't have to accept what you do because if there is no God, you don't even have a right to do what you want to do. So we've got to get back to an authority beyond ourselves and that authority is God's nature. And my guest today, Katie Faust, is very articulate, as you can see, on some of the most difficult issues we face as Christians in a anti Christian society. And she lives in Seattle, where it's very difficult, as you know. Didn't you just elect a socialist or a communist? Who did you elect as mayor at this time?
- [25:15]
B
Well, look, there's only seven conservatives that still live here, so it's very, very hard to vote anybody into office that reflects our values. But, hi, Idaho. How's my church doing over there? Because that's where they've all gone.
- [25:27]
A
Yeah, that's true. That was just in Idaho, too. They've all left. They've all gone from Washington to Idaho as well. The Californians have. And some of the Oregon have to escape. But you're staying and fighting, which is a good thing, Katie.
- [25:41]
B
We are. And, you know, everybody talks smack about Seattle, and I totally get it, but, you know, we just had three baptisms at our church on Sunday. One of them was a kid whose dad is somewhere in the Midwest. His mom is a Buddhist, stepdad's a Buddhist. He fell in with our high school boys, our high school boys that largely go to public school but have been trained in this system of worldview inculcation. And now they fish. They fish for other boys. They become fishers of high school boys. And so this kid fell in with the high schoolers who all, like, fill the pews, right? They all just fill in rows of, you know, at least one big row in the back, too, if you're closer to the front. Six months ago, he didn't know anything about this, got baptized on Sunday because he was shown another way. He was shown a better way. And then another kid who grew up Mormon and moved to Seattle started listening to, I don't know, online sermons, maybe some of the things that you did. And he realized, God is missing in my life, found our church, and the men of our church just pulled him in and he got baptized, too. And so it's like God is at work here. Like, this is a mission field. The Christians that are still here understand nobody plays around. There's no. There's no fake cultural Christians in Seattle. Everyone has their Jesus on all the time. We understand there's a cost. A year ago, when we did our benefit dinner, my nonprofit benefit dinner here in Seattle, three hours before the event, AV crew just packed up and left. And we said, where are you going? They're like, oh, we just realized you're a hate group. We're leaving we're like, we paid the down payment. We signed the contract. They're like, yeah, I'm sorry, but we're not going to help you make money. And, you know, the Seattle staff were like, yeah, that's kind of how it goes. And the North Carolina staff are like.
- [27:16]
A
They just walked out on us.
- [27:17]
B
And we're like, yes, welcome to Seattle. We are really hated here, and you just have to figure out how to get used to it.
- [27:24]
A
Yeah. And the third baptism was the pastor?
- [27:27]
B
No, the pastor's amazing daughter.
- [27:30]
A
Okay, all right. That's great. That's great to hear. So how did your event go? If the whole sounds team left, like, what'd you do?
- [27:38]
B
My executive director. We got a little amp and a teeny little mic and sit on stage. And we didn't have our beautiful video, and we didn't have all of the av and we didn't have the sound that reached everybody in the back. And we made twice as much money because everybody in Seattle is like, oh, they hate you. You must be doing something awesome.
- [27:53]
A
That's right. If somebody doesn't hate you, you're doing something wrong. Okay. Especially there. Yeah. Whenever we get protests, I like it because more people show up. Right. It just brings more attention to the event. So. And I, I, I'm sure you didn't have time at that point to ask these people, what do you mean by hate? But that would have been. Been a good question. And how do you define hate? Anyone who disagrees with you. Oh, and your standard for morality is what? Where are you getting that from?
- [28:21]
B
Yeah. Logic is very rare here. Emotions run high. Logic runs low.
- [28:27]
A
Yeah. I've noticed that. When my mentor, Dr. Geiser, always used to say this. When someone's worldview is challenged, if they can't respond with reason, what they do is they emote. They emote. They call you names, they yell, they get angry. That is because their worldview is threatened. They're like, their beliefs are threatened. And they don't know how to respond other than to curse you out or to call you a hater. They will not deal with reason. When your reason is met with rage, ladies and gentlemen, you know that the other side doesn't have a reasonable answer. And now they're just grasping. And you see that a lot where you are, I imagine.
- [29:06]
B
Yeah. A lot of people will literally.
- [29:12]
Come at me and say, how could you raise your children in Seattle and even send them to public schools? Which our children have largely gone to public schools. And I'm like, yep, it's perilous. But our children are exercising their worldview muscles over and over and over again. And I have no fear for them. You know, when they go on to whatever college they want to go to, they have already encountered all of the vicious ideas. They've already had to personally endure, scorn or take a loss or stand alone to defend their convictions. They have had to investigate what they believe because it's not just their friends, it's their teachers who are challenging them. And so that makes for pretty strong spiritual muscles. Like worldview is something that you need to exercise, right? That constant friction, it can sharpen you. You do need to be very wary because the wrong amount of friction from the wrong places at the wrong time can grind you down to nothing and destroy you. But it also serves to help you understand really what you believe and how to articulate it. And thank God, you know, our kids are definitely in that zone of if you come at me with your pronouns, they are going to be able to argue you right out of believing that that is a consistent view to hold.
- [30:23]
A
We're talking to Katie Faust. Them before us dot com. Katie, you do have a radio program and a podcast also on the American Family Radio Network. Tell people about that when it is.
- [30:33]
B
We are every Sunday, I think from 3 to 4 on the east coast. I'm on the west coast, so not, not the same time. We focus a lot on marriage and family issues. Then before us is probably the most public facing organization that is critiquing big fertility like surrogacy and ivf. We are also the organization that is spearheading the first national.
- [30:54]
Attempt to roll back gay marriage. We are going to stomp out legal gay marriage because it victimizes children. When you make husbands and wives optional in marriage, mothers and fathers become optional in parenthood laws. The problem is a child's own mother or father is never optional. They are critical. As we talked about in the first segment, there are very few things you could give to kids. There's no amount of money, there's no amount of benefit or neighborhood or schools or Head Start programs or or government funds that you could give to a child that would benefit them in the same way as their own mother and father, loving them and loving each other every single day. And unfortunately, you talk about the law being a teacher. What the law has taught through gay marriage is that men and women are optional in the project of parenting. And there's no greater lie that you could say about child development.
- [31:39]
A
Yes, and I know this is just semantics. I don't call it gay Marriage. Because even under the natural marriage laws we've had for what, 5,000 years, so called people who identify as gay could get married. They just didn't like their choices. It's really same sex marriage that's the problem because as you just said, it makes marriage genderless. And as you know, friends, I have a book on this called correct, not politically correct about same sex marriage and transgenderism. There aren't Bible verses in it, there's just reason in it. And the not only natural law, but also the medical case and the fact that children, ultimately, since the law is a great teacher, the institution of marriage is now taught to be just about the romantic feelings of two individuals. And once those romantic feelings go away, well, you have a right to somebody else. Doesn't matter if they're men, women, two men, two women, doesn't matter according to the law, which is a huge problem. So Katie, this is where people are going to get annoyed because according to surveys Anyway, about say 60% of people agree with same sex marriage. Even Christians say, oh yeah, it's just fine, it's all about love. Tell them other than the biblical admonition against destroying marriage, because marriage is between a man and a woman, and even Jesus talked about that in Matthew 19. Give some reasons why this is a problem for children.
- [33:03]
B
Yeah, marriage is distinct for kids because it's the only relationship that unites the two people to whom they have a natural right. And the way that Jesus defined marriage had three distinct characteristics, monogamy, permanence and complementarity. So each of those have a very specific child benefit. Monogamy means only a child's own mother and father are going to be in the home. That's very, very important for kids because the presence of an unrelated adult like mother's boyfriend or dad's new wife, always on a statistical level, will decrease investment and connection and increase risk of abuse and neglect. If you believe that children should be safe and loved, you've got to emphasize monogamy. It has to be a child's own mother and father whenever possible, in the home, every day, all day. Number two, permanence. Children don't just need that safety from their own biological mother and father for the first two days or two months or two years of 12 years of their life. They need it all day, every day. And that aspect of permanence, what God has joined together, let no man separate, is critical when it comes to child well being. If you're talking, there are situations where divorce may be necessary, but it's never optimal. Not for kids. There was a massive study that came out just this summer, 5 million kids pulled from CDC data that showed that increased risk of teen pregnancy goes up 55% post divorce. Incarceration rates will go up about 45%, crime among boys 45% and early death in children 35 to 55%. And that is not correlative to divorce. It's causative. Divorce causes that kind of increased risk. So permanence is nothing to mess with. When you talk, want to talk about child well being and child thriving and then complementarity, right? What a man will leave his mother and father be joined to his wife. Okay, so you're hearing these complimentary terms, male and female. Now, children don't just need to be loved in the abstract. They're made for male love and female love. And a man does things developmentally for a child that a woman doesn't. And a woman does thing developmentally for a child that a man doesn't. Women by nature teach children to attach. Fathers by nature encourage children to separate. Those are critical macro lessons, lessons that children need all day, every day, all their life, in different ways. And so if you can understand the complementarity, that's what was destroyed during same sex marriage, the permanence that was destroyed by no fault divorce. And now the monogamy, which is on the chopping block now that polyamorous groups are vying for the same kind of equal marriage that the gays and the heterosexuals did right before this. What we're seeing is the most fundamental vehicle for child well being has now almost been completely transformed into a vehicle of adult fulfillment. And we're seeing children suffer as a result.
- [35:51]
A
And it started in California, a law signed by, of all people, Ronald Reagan, I want to say 1969, maybe, Katie, that's it. He signed the no fault divorce law. Well intended. And later he came to regret it. But what did that do? What did no fault divorce do to the institution of marriage that ultimately led to what we now call same sex marriage or genderless marriage?
- [36:16]
B
It was the first time that it was communicated that a marriage is not really about the building block of society or an institution around the creation and rearing of children. It now is a vehicle of making adults happy. Because we used to have an at fault divorce system where if one of the parties was at fault of breaking their vow, whether it was abuse or adultery or addiction or abandonment, the innocent spouse could then sue him, in essence, take him to court, get alimony, social support, get custody, but no more. Right now it Just says anyone can leave for any reason at any moment. You'll never see it coming, and there's nothing you can do about it.
- [36:55]
A
We'll unpack that further right after the break. And I know a lot of people are getting upset now because maybe you're divorced or you're thinking about divorce. What should you do? We're going to talk about it right after the break with Katie faust. Then before us.com thenbefore us.com. don't go anywhere. Back after the break.
- [37:19]
Oh, no. They're in my wheelhouse now. They're talking about divorce. Would you shut up about that? I feel guilty enough already.
- [37:29]
What do I do if I'm in a bad marriage? What do I do if my husband's abusive or vice versa? Are you telling me that that's going to ruin my kids forever? Staying in the marriage might ruin my kids forever. What do we do? Well, I'm talking to the great Katie Faust, ladies and gentlemen. Them before us dot com. Them meaning children, before us meaning parents or adults. Too many people put their own needs, wants and desires among their children or above their children. Should we be doing that? Katie, I know there are exceptions, but when you look at divorce, let's just say in the church, how often are these divorces not biblical? What percentage of them would you say are?
- [38:14]
B
Well, I don't have data on just Christians around this, but my husband and I have been in ministry together for close to 30 years, and so we have seen a lot. I've got, like, my children's activist hat, and then I can take it off and I can put on my pastor's wife hat. You know, where we have counseled people that have been in really difficult marital situations. I mean, most of the marital. Most marriages are going to go through challenges at some point for a few years at least. Some of those challenges are gonna be very, very significant. So I'm not gonna minimize the struggles that, you know, my husband and I have been married 27 years. We had a couple years that I call the warring years, you know, where he would pull in and my. My shoulders would get tense and I just get ready to fight. And we had to, like, do some very serious work. We, like. He, like, signed us up for a one week, like, intensive counseling session because we just needed to, like, lock horns and work it out. And we did. But it wasn't a great couple years.
- [39:06]
A
As Rodney Dangefield said, my wife and I were happy for 20 years. And then we met.
- [39:12]
B
Right.
- [39:13]
A
There's always. You put two broken People in one relationship, there's always going to be trouble. But I love what Gary Thomas said about this. I'm paraphrasing his subtitle of his book, Sacred Marriage. He said, what if God made marriage more for our holiness than our happiness? Which I think is an interesting insight, but. Sorry, go ahead. So you've had your own marriage issues?
- [39:35]
B
Yeah, and more than that, we've walked alongside, honestly, in church, in friend groups. Just now that I'm kind of out more in the national scene, I do a lot of, kind of COVID counseling of people that feel like they don't have anyone to talk to. I mean, we've now, like, counseled hundreds of couples that are dealing with marital issues. So I'm not going to minimize the struggles in marriage. But what I am going to say is, barring abuse or infidelity or significant addiction, what divorce is, is it's a transference of the hard work from adult to child. Right. Whatever it is that you're struggling with. Right. The communication issues, or maybe the pornography problems or the childhood baggage that is coming up, or the financial issues or the. I just don't feel seen. He doesn't understand me. Like, why. Why do I have to do 50% of the housework when both of us are working or whatever. Like, what you're doing is you're saying, hey, this struggle that I am having, it's too heavy for me. Here, kid, you take it instead. That's what divorce is. And so someone is going to do the hard thing. And unfortunately, we've got a lot of national narratives and there is a whole industry of divorce Influencer on Instagram especially, that is talking to women and telling them that your kids are going to be fine. In fact, they want you to be happy. They want you to go out and find the guy that really understands you. And it's your. It's your trainer at the gym. I mean, he's going to treat you right. That husband of yours, he, like, comes home. Yeah. I'm sure that he works all the time and he's alignment and he's exhausted. But. But he can't just come home and put his feet up and fall asleep on the couch. Here you are doing unpaid labor all day and he doesn't appreciate you. I'm sorry. Get over it. Go to counseling. Like, find the people that are going to be able to help you reform, like, get accountability. Someone is going to do the hard thing here. Don't pretend like no hard thing exists. It's just your job, the parents to do it instead of the child. So.
- [41:28]
A
And marriage is hard. Divorce is harder. Yeah, especially on the kids.
- [41:32]
B
I think divorce is the end of fighting. You're just gonna not be married and keep fighting, and then you're gonna make your kid the go between. Right now your kid is going to be the mediator between the adults. And like, that's something, you know, at them before us. One of the things that we do is we catalog the stories of children who have lost their mother or father. And we've got three different groups. We've got the children with LGBT parents, we've got the kids created through reproductive technologies, and we've got the kids of the divorce and abandonment. And they each, each of those three categories have sort of their distinct struggles, but they all share one thing. Any of these what we call desire based losses. It's not tragedy based losses. It's not because a parent died, they lose their mother or father because adult desire is prioritized above their fundamental rights and needs. And all of these groups, children of divorce, children with LGBT parents, children created through sperm or egg donation or surrogacy, they all have something in common. Common. And that is that there is a reversal in the parent child relationship. So parents, as the adults are supposed to be supportive, understanding, and accommodating of children because they are older, they have volition, they're, they're fully formed, you know, cognitively. But when you have these desire based child losses, there's a role reversal. Now the child has to be understanding, supportive, and accommodating of the adults and what they want, their new partners, their new desires, their lifestyle choices, right where they want to move, the people they want to see. And now it's the child that has to shuffle between two homes and bounce between schools and miss out on their friends. And, you know, there was one study that was done by a researcher called Elizabeth Margot, and she wrote, she did a study called Between Two Worlds and ended up writing a book about it. And she found that even in the good divorces, right, the ones where there wasn't any high conflict and the parents weren't throwing plates at one another during the, like, custody exchange, 50% of those kids developed two different personalities because the world at mom's house and dad's house was so drastically different, different rules, different screen times, different people in their life, different bedtimes, that the kid had to become a different person in the drive from dad's house to mom's house. So don't pretend like it's no big deal. It's not Going to cost you. The kids are resilient, they're going to get over it. No, you are foisting lifelong loss on your kids and not just like the risks of increased crime and teen pregnancy and early death. There was a study in 2017 that showed that father loss to death, incarceration or divorce shortened the length of a child's telomeres. That's the end cap of their chromosome. And telomeres are responsible for health and longevity. So children who lost their father to divorce, which about 40% do, after two years, they won't see their non custodial parent again. Those kids have shorter lifespans and poorer health for the course of the rest of their life. So when you're talking about divorce, you're talking about messing with something that is going to have implications for decades to come for your kids.
- [44:32]
A
Answer me this, Katie, if you would. I don't know the answer. It just struck me that say a dad dies from an accident or cancer or something.
- [44:44]
A kid can understand that. Is it better on a kid? Neither is good, obviously, but if the father dies rather than the father walks out on the mom. Is there any data on that?
- [44:57]
B
Yeah, we have about. We have two studies that look at outcomes for kids when they lose a parent to tragedy or they lose a parent to divorce. And overwhelmingly the kids who, who lose a father to death do better. Now why is that? Number one, because they obviously know that the parent would be there if they could. They still feel. I've talked to so many people that have lost a parent to death where they say, I, I loved him and I knew that he loved me and I knew that I was the thing that he was going to miss the most. And he told me that over and over. I'm so sorry, I'm not going to be able to see you get married and see you have your own kids and like they, they think about their father and they still feel loved by him. Whereas when you've got a father that you do not see because, because of divorce or abandonment, they know that he has made a choice. And very, very often, especially young kids, they don't have an explanation. It's interesting because about 2/3 of divorces occur in low conflict marriages. So there isn't like screaming and fighting. It breaks up the home of a child where they very often have no idea that anything is wrong. And yet now they're foisted into this world where they have new partners or transitions or stepfathers that are making them feel creepy or maybe physically aggressive towards them and they have to think about some reason why the marriage, the home that they enjoyed with both their mom and dad. They have to figure out a reason why that broke up. It wasn't because plates were being thrown. It wasn't because dad was screeching as he drove away. They have to come up with an explanation. And the explanation is usually, it's my fault. Something was wrong with me. Me. He didn't want me.
- [46:31]
A
How often, how often do they feel like this? You're fired.
- [46:36]
B
Yes. Because what it is, it's the parent rejecting the other half of the child. Yeah, but the other reason why children of death whose parents die fare better is because the child is not mourning the loss of that parent alone. When they think about their mother who passed away from cancer when they were 8, and they talk to anybody else that knew their mother, they thought, say, oh, your mother loved you so much. Oh, I loved this about her. Oh, I'm so sad that she's gone. When a child whose parents divorce when they are eight, talk to anybody else about how they wish that their parents were still together or they want to see their mother, but now she's moved, you know, three states away, and they only get to see her two weeks out of the summer. The. The message they get is, yeah, but you have two Christmases. Yeah, but your mom is so happy now. Well, yeah, but like, you still have both. A lot of kids have it worse off. The child is isolated in their grief and mourning and their questioning, whereas the child of death has a whole community that's reflecting back their loss. So, yes, there's a drastic difference between children who lose their parents to tragedy and children who lose their parents because adults didn't have the stones to do hard things on behalf of their kids.
- [47:39]
A
Katie, we got about a minute to go, and I know there's a lot of people going. I wish Katie and her husband were my pastors. A lot of people are thinking that they could help me through this. Is there a book, a curriculum or something you would recomm men to people who are thinking about divorce right now and friends, it's going to be a disaster for your kids. What. What do you recommend they do or read other than the Bible, obviously.
- [48:05]
B
Get off social media. You become what you behold and get away from your friends who have divorced. Divorce is contagious. When you have one close friend that divorces, you are 75% more likely to get divorced yourself. Surround yourself.
- [48:16]
A
Those people want to legitimize what they did by having you do it, too. Sorry, go ahead.
- [48:20]
B
Yes, and in the short term, it can look very attractive. It can look like an escape. Surround yourself with people that have great marriages that are a few steps ahead of you, that you tell everything to, and you give them authority to hold yourself, hold you and your husband accountable. Both of you need to do it. Read our first book, Them before us. Why we need a global children's rights movement. We have one chapter on divorce. You will have no illusions about the impact this will have on your children if you refuse to do the hard thing.
- [48:43]
A
Any. Any books on marriage that you think are helpful? Anything come to mind? I mean, Sacred Marriage by Gary Thomas. You got.
- [48:50]
B
Okay. He's great.
- [48:51]
A
Love and respect.
- [48:52]
B
Yeah, yeah. Love and respect is good. I will tell you, one of the best marriage books I've ever met was. Was Real Marriage by Mark Driscoll and his wife. I know that he's a bit controversial, but I thought he nailed it.
- [49:03]
A
All right, Katie Faust, ladies and gentlemen. Amazing interview. We're gonna have you back on, Katie. We got a lot more to talk about then before us.com thenbefore us.com thank you, Katie.
- [49:11]
B
Great to be with you.
- [49:12]
A
Katie Foust, ladies and gentlemen. Check her out. She's amazing. As you can tell, we're going to have her on again because there's so much more to talk about. But friends, them before us, be a parent. Don't revert and become a child and do just what you want to do. All right, we'll see you here next time. God bless.
- [49:32]
Dr. Frank Turek is bringing powerful evidence for God to campuses like UC Berkeley, the University of Georgia, and Ohio State, reaching thousands in person and millions online. But each event now requires costly security. Your gift helps the light of truth pierce the darkness. Give today@crossexamined.org.