Podcast Summary

I Don’t Have Enough FAITH to Be an ATHEIST

Episode: What Does the Bible REALLY Say About Homosexuality? with Dr. Robert Gagnon
Host: Dr. Frank Turek
Guest: Dr. Robert Gagnon
Date: January 9, 2026

Overview

In this episode, Dr. Frank Turek interviews Dr. Robert Gagnon, author of the seminal book The Bible and Homosexual Practice: Texts and Hermeneutics, about what the Bible truly says regarding homosexuality. Gagnon, a scholar with impressive academic credentials (Dartmouth, Harvard, Princeton), discusses the scriptural, theological, and social aspects of homosexuality, challenges modern reinterpretations, and addresses common objections using detailed biblical exegesis and social science. Throughout, both speakers emphasize that their approach stems from a desire for truth, clarity, and love—not animosity.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why Dr. Gagnon Wrote the Book

• Academic and Social Pushback:
  Gagnon describes the immense controversy publishing his book caused, particularly when it came to academic tenure.

  “There are a lot of people nationally... who are writing in that I should be denied tenure… I was promoting the wrong view, the biblical view.” – Dr. Gagnon [03:09]

• His Background:
  Gagnon was educated at liberal institutions, giving him insight into opposing arguments, which he systematically addresses.

The “Shellfish” Objection & Levitical Law

• Common Objection:
  Critics argue, “If you eat shrimp, why not accept gay relationships?” (Leviticus 18 vs. 19).
• Dr. Gagnon’s Response:
  Dietary and ritual purity laws are symbolic; prohibitions against incest, adultery, bestiality, and homosexual practice are moral and universal:

  “The prohibitions of incest... are not just metaphorical or symbolic. You’re really not supposed to have sex with your mother or your child… This is even more true in the case of homosexual practice.” – Dr. Gagnon [07:11]
  “Sex is primarily about the [organism’s] reproductive organization of the body...when you have a male having sex with a male, or a female with a female, the degree of sexual sameness is complete.” – Dr. Gagnon [08:36]

• Moral vs. Ritual:
  Sexual ethics in Leviticus are based on creation order and moral logic, not ritual symbolism [31:39].

Societal & Scientific Data on Same-Sex Relationships

• Negative Outcomes:
  Gagnon claims that same-sex relationships show “disproportionately high rates of measurable harm”—STDs, mental health issues, and relationship instability—beyond what can be attributed to “societal homophobia.”

  “Among homosexual male relationships, we have a disproportionately high rate of both numbers of sex partners...and sexually transmitted disease.” – Dr. Gagnon [10:49]

  • Female-female unions: higher mental health complications and relationship turnover [11:33].
• Marriage and Complementarity:
  Heterosexual union moderates extremes and fills gaps of each sex, while same-sex unions “fuel one side and atrophy the other” [12:43].

Theological Logic: Sameness vs. Complementarity

• Theological View:
  The biblical sexual ethic is rooted in the complementarity of male and female:

  “When you bring together a male and a female, you’re bringing together the two halves of the sexual spectrum into an integrated sexual whole.” – Dr. Gagnon [13:14]

  • Homosexual union: attempts to unite with someone already essentially identical, which Gagnon calls self-deception or “sexual narcissism” [14:07].

Common Myths and Errors

• Error #1: “If I’m attracted, it’s justified to act.”
  Gagnon: Attraction does not equal moral action; we all have forbidden impulses.

  “If we simply did whatever our impulses led us to do, we would be engaging in what God calls sin.” – Dr. Gagnon [19:02]

• Error #2: “Love means approval.”
  True love sometimes involves rebuke:

  “It wouldn’t be grace or generosity or kindness on God’s part to allow a person to continue in a form of immoral conduct that leads to their exclusion from the kingdom of God.” – Dr. Gagnon [29:13]

“Born This Way” – Is Homosexuality Inborn?

• Scientific Evidence:
  No conclusive evidence for a “gay gene” or congenital determination:

  “There are risk factors…that could increase or lower the risk… But it’s not a deterministic model.” – Dr. Gagnon [17:24]

  • Factors: gender non-conformity, relationships with parents/peers, social context.

Procreation & Purpose

• Scriptural View:
  All sexual organs are “complete” except for procreation, emphasizing design for male-female union [13:40].
  • Sexual desires should not determine moral action; biblical discipleship is about “denying the self,” not self-fulfillment [19:18].

Levitical Law, Old Testament Loopholes, and Jesus’ Teaching

• Polygamy and Divorce:
  Jesus closes loopholes that existed in the Old Testament. While the law permitted some behaviors due to human “hardness of heart,” Jesus’ teaching returns to the original design—one man, one woman.

  “God allowed that because of human… hardness of heart. That doesn’t represent God’s original will. Where do we find God’s original will? In creation—God’s intentional design of two and only two sexual counterparts.” – Dr. Gagnon [41:06]

• On Polygamy:
  Permitted in the Old Testament (e.g., Covenant Code, Exodus), but never commanded. It was problematic and not the ideal [46:06].
• Never a Loophole for Homosexual Practice:

  “Homosexual practice, never a loophole because it’s right at the very foundation.” – Dr. Gagnon [47:54]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “My experience has been that the most tolerant, pluralistic and diverse people at academic institutions are conservatives, not leftists.”
  — Dr. Gagnon [06:01]
• “If your neighbor does wrong, you shall reprove your neighbor, lest you incur guilt for failing to warn them.”
  — Dr. Gagnon [29:13]
• “The only thing that a male can’t do or a female can’t do is procreate; all their other organs are self-contained…That appears to be part of the design as well.”
  — Dr. Turek [13:40]
• “When discipleship is talked about throughout the New Testament... what’s the primary image for discipleship? It’s death. Christ talks about... you have to lose your life, you have to deny yourself, you have to take up your cross, then follow me.”
  — Dr. Gagnon [19:18]
• “The number of partners that God allows in a sexual union is ultimately predicated on the number of sexes that God designs intentionally and according to Scripture, only two, intentionally male and female.”
  — Dr. Gagnon [38:22]
• On “love” and rebuke: “Love is a very full-orbed concept... includes not just affirmation but sometimes rebuke.”
  — Dr. Gagnon [29:13]

Timestamps for Major Segments

• [00:03] Intro, Dr. Gagnon’s credentials & background
• [02:12] Tenure controversy, academic response to Gagnon’s book
• [06:37] Leviticus, "shellfish" objection, Old Testament sex laws
• [10:49] Social science, harm in same-sex relationships
• [13:14] Marriage as complementarity, design argument
• [16:13] Common errors in logic about sexual attraction and morality
• [17:24] “Born this way”, genetics, developmental influences
• [19:18] Nature of sin, self-denial in Christianity
• [27:13] “But it’s about love” objection
• [29:13] Biblical definition of love—rebuke as an act of love
• [31:39] Leviticus, ritual vs. moral law, applicability today
• [36:35] Genesis 1 & 2, creation order, Jesus’ teaching on marriage
• [38:22] Discussion on polygamy, "closing loopholes"
• [44:59] Incest, polygamy, and homosexual practice—severity in biblical ethics
• [46:06] Old Testament: polygamy permitted, not promoted
• [47:54] Social context for biblical allowances, creation as the foundation
• [48:43] Plan for next episode: Deep-dive into New Testament passages

Final Thoughts

This episode provides a comprehensive critique of modern attempts to reconcile homosexual practice with biblical teaching. Dr. Gagnon systematically addresses key objections—both biblical and social—and emphasizes that loving others does not mean affirming all behaviors. He stresses a holistic, creation-based ethic of sexuality and the necessity of self-denial foundational to Christian discipleship. The conversation will continue with a deeper look at New Testament passages related to homosexuality in the follow-up episode.

For detailed biblical, theological, and scientific arguments, listeners are encouraged to consult Dr. Gagnon’s book, The Bible and Homosexual Practice, and follow his ongoing work on Facebook.