What We Should Have Learned from the Pilgrims with Bill Federer

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: I Don't Have Enough FAITH to Be an ATHEIST
Title: What We Should Have Learned from the Pilgrims with Bill Federer
Host: Dr. Frank Turek
Guest: Bill Federer, historian and author
Date: November 28, 2025

In this Thanksgiving weekend episode, Dr. Frank Turek and guest Bill Federer discuss the overlooked origins of America's unique form of government, focusing on the legacy of the Pilgrims, the religious and political turmoil that propelled their journey, the foundations of self-government, and the critical lessons modern Americans should draw from their story. The conversation highlights the historical suppression of religious freedoms in Europe, the Pilgrims' failed experiment with socialism, and the transition to the American model of individual liberty and bottom-up governance rooted in a Christian worldview.

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Main Discussion Points and Insights

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The Uniqueness of the U.S. Constitution and Government

• Checks and Balances Based on Human Nature

  • Bill Federer emphasizes that the U.S. Constitution is unique because it assumes man's sinfulness and need for checks and balances ([00:56]).
  • “The most common form of government in world history is kings… America’s founders decided to flip it, make the people the king.” (Bill Federer, [01:53])

• Bottom-up versus Top-down Governance

  • The U.S. system is likened to a living tree (community-focused, bottom-up), as opposed to a dead pyramid (hierarchical, top-down) ([01:59]).

• Roots in Church-led Communities

  • New England's model was shaped by churches, unlike Virginia's king-driven colony ([03:00]). The covenant church structure laid the early foundation for American self-government.

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Religious Persecution and Seeds of American Freedom

• Break from Rome & Fight for English Bibles

  • Henry VIII’s break from Rome over his divorce and the push for English Bibles, influenced by William Tyndale’s martyrdom ([02:40]-[04:20]).
  • “William Tyndale’s last words…before they set him on fire was, ‘Lord, open the King of England’s eyes.’” (Bill Federer, [03:57])

• Puritans, Separatists, and the Conventicle Laws

  • The emergence of Puritans aiming to reform the Church of England, and Separatists (Pilgrims) who met in secret “conventicles” (Bible study groups), risking severe persecution ([06:00]-[08:20]).
  • “If you’re caught making up your own prayers in little Bible study groups called conventicles…the government would kick in the door and arrest you... and brand you on the face as a heretic.” (Bill Federer, [07:43])

• Power of Conscience and Religious Liberty

  • Early advocates like John Merton and William Penn insisted that faith must be voluntary, not coerced. “Force makes hypocrites. ’Tis persuasion only that makes converts.” (Bill Federer, quoting William Penn, [08:52])

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Pilgrims' Journey: From Persecution to Self-Government

• Failed Escapes and Leiden, Holland

  • Pilgrims tried multiple times to escape England, enduring betrayals, separation, and jail before resettling in Leiden, Holland—a haven of religious tolerance ([19:15]-[21:55]).
  • Shared experience with persecuted Jews in Leiden led Pilgrims to identify with Israel’s exodus ([21:56]-[22:43]).

• Decision to Seek a New World

  • The Pilgrims chose America over South America due to the lethal threat of the Spanish, providentially landing in Massachusetts after being blown off course ([24:30]-[25:50]).

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Birth of American Self-Government: The Mayflower Compact

• From Church Covenant to Civil Government

  • With no king-appointed leader in Massachusetts, Pilgrims adapted their church covenant into a civil compact—the Mayflower Compact (“We in the presence of God covenant ourselves together into a civil body politic.” ([27:00]-[28:10])).
  • “In the womb of the Mayflower is conceived the child of self-government. It’s a polarity change in the flow of power on planet Earth.” (Bill Federer, [28:07])

• Covenant Versus Constitution

  • The podcast draws a line from biblical covenant (Israel) through the Pilgrims to the modern U.S. Constitution, noting that even the word “federal” derives from the Latin for “covenant.”
  • “America is an experiment of a polarity change in the flow of power. Instead of top down like a dead pyramid, it’s bottom up like a living tree where every root... participates.” (Bill Federer, [28:50])

• Role of the Church in Early American Cities

  • Churches not only founded communities; the church building was the meeting house for both worship and political affairs.
  • “All church members should be involved in politics because we’re supposed to love God and love our neighbor.” (Frank Turek, [30:45])

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The Pilgrims' Experiment with Socialism and Its Lessons

• Communal Property Fails

  • The original company rules imposed socialism: all was held in common for seven years ([31:18]-[37:45]).
  • Governor Bradford’s account: “The failure of that experiment of communal service… proves the emptiness of the theory of Plato… Community of property was found to breed much confusion.” ([37:45])
  • Notable outcomes: More able workers resented “working for other men’s wives and children without any recompense.” Women resented communal chores, and morale plummeted. Much starvation resulted.

• Shift to Private Property

  • “So they began to consider how to raise more corn…The governor…allowed each man to plant corn for his own household.” ([39:24])
  • Suddenly, productivity and morale soared; the first American Thanksgiving celebrated abundance following the shift.

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Squanto and Divine Providence

• The Story of Squanto
  • Squanto, having been kidnapped, enslaved, and rescued, returned to find his tribe gone but providentially helped the Pilgrims survive ([41:31]-[43:53]).
  • “Squanto’s witnessing them and their Christian faith, and he says, I want to go to your God.” (Bill Federer, [46:52])

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Key Takeaways for Americans Today

• Why the U.S. System is Unique and Worthy of Gratitude
  • The system is based on Judeo-Christian recognition of human nature, personal responsibility, and voluntary virtue—requiring a moral populace ([16:15]-[18:55]).
  • “If a nation is going to have success, you need to have a moral populace.” (Bill Federer, [18:50])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Human Nature and Government:
  “The U.S. Constitution... has an assumption. And the assumption is that man is sinful and therefore he needs checks and balances.”
  — Bill Federer ([00:56])

• On Self-Government:
  “The people are at the top of the org chart now in the United States of America. Totally unique.”
  — Frank Turek ([01:53])

• On Religious Freedom:
  “Force makes hypocrites. ’Tis persuasion only that makes converts.”
  — William Penn, quoted by Bill Federer ([08:52])

• On Socialism:
  “The failure of that experiment of communal service... proves the emptiness of the theory of Plato... Community of property was found to breed much confusion...”
  — Governor William Bradford, quoted by Bill Federer ([37:45])

• On Individual Dignity:
  “You have a worth as an individual, because you are made in the image of God.”
  — Bill Federer ([47:39])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:56] – What’s unique about the U.S. Constitution (Checks and Balances)
• [07:43] – Religious Persecution: Conventicles and Branding Heretics
• [19:15] – The Pilgrims’ struggle to escape, Leiden, and connection with Jews
• [24:30] – Pilgrims’ decision on destination and providential arrival in Massachusetts
• [27:00] – The creation of the Mayflower Compact and self-government
• [31:18] – The Pilgrims’ socialist experiment and why it failed
• [39:24] – Transition to private property and resulting prosperity
• [41:31] – The story and providence of Squanto
• [47:39] – Three facts every young American should know

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The Three Facts Every Young American Should Know (Bill Federer, [47:39])

1. Individual Worth:
   “You have a worth as an individual because you are made in the image of God... Every other group, your worth is dependent on what group you belong to. Not here.”

2. Right to Earn and Create:
   “You get to earn your own income... You have ideas... We have patents... Other countries, if you have an idea, the government just takes it away.”

3. Freedom to Pursue Your Dreams:
   “You get to pursue your dreams... In America, you can start from nothing and then work hard and get elected and become president.”

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Tone & Style

The discussion is conversational and inspirational, often patriotic, with Turek and Federer passionately advocating for a deeper appreciation of America’s uniquely liberty-focused heritage and the crucial importance of faith and morality in sustaining freedom.

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Final Thoughts

Bill Federer and Dr. Frank Turek argue that what we should have learned from the Pilgrims is the immense value of self-government, individual liberty grounded in moral virtue, the necessity of a populace accountable to God, and the dangers of top-down collectivism. Through stories of persecution, perseverance, covenant, and thanksgiving, the episode invites listeners to rediscover gratitude for America's exceptional heritage and to recommit to the moral character required to sustain it.

Transcript

[A]

What do you have to be thankful for as an American this Thanksgiving Day weekend? Well, my friend Bill Federer and I spent an hour talking about that in the previous podcast. You're going to want to listen to that one as well. We're going to pick up our conversation where we left off and let me just go to Bill right away. Bill, we had a great conversation about so many things that are unique about America. Let's just start. I want to get to the Pilgrims, but before I do, I just want to get to our Constitution because it is unique among among constitutions around the world. What is unique about the United States form of government? The great Bill Federer. And we're gonna start with some applause for Bill. Here he is, Bill Federer, ladies and gentlemen, Americanminute.com what's unique about the United States Constitution and form of government?

[B]

Great question. It takes number one. It has an assumption. And the assumption is that man is sinful and therefore he needs checks and balances. Now, the most common form of government in world history is kings. Basically, Adam and Eve sinned, selfishness came into the human DNA. Cain kills Abel and one king takes the kingdom from another king. As the centuries go on, the kingdoms get bigger because with military advancement, kings can kill more people. Until finally the king of England had the biggest. And he was a globalist. The sun never set on the British Empire. Anybody that can plot on a graph sees that at some point this will max out on a global scale. Right, with an Antichrist. And Jesus said, wheat and tares grow together until the harvest. All right. But at the time of America's founding, the King of England was the most powerful king on the planet. And he had India, Australia, New Zealand, Hong Kong, et cetera. And America's founders decided to flip it, make the people the king.

[A]

This is unique that the people are at the top of the orc chart now in the United States of America. Totally unique.

[B]

Yeah, it's a bottom up form of government versus top down. I tell people it's the difference between a dead pyramid ruled top down and a living tree bottom up. And then where did these ideas come from? Well, they basically come from New England and not Virginia. Virginia was a king run colony from 1607 up until 1786 when they chased out Lord Dunmore and Patrick Henry, the first governor of Virginia. But it was a king run colony. Massachusetts was different. And New England, they were started by churches. And so we have to unpack this. Europe was Catholic. And then Henry, the Reformation starts. Martin Luther. And then you have the King of England Henry viii. And he's married to the daughter of the King of Spain. And after 1818 years, she does not have a son. Henry decides to divorce her. The Pope won't recognize the divorce, so Henry decides to make himself his own Pope. He starts the Church of England, puts himself on as the head, goes on to have six wives. Their fates were divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived. Henry VIII was not a really nice guy to be married to anyway. His advisors suggested if he was serious about breaking from Rome, he needed to stop using the Latin Bible and get himself an English Bible. The Germans have marked in Luther's German Bible that helped them to break away from Rome. You need to get yourself an English Bible. Well, it just so happens Henry VIII had William Tyndale killed a few years earlier for translating the Bible into English. And William Tyndale's last words were, before they set him on fire, was lord, open the King of England's eyes. And so now he decides to divorce. Catherine of Aragon wants to marry Anne Boleyn. And his advisors tell him he needs to get his own Bible. So they take William Tyndale's work. About 80% of all English translations have William Tyndale's work in there. And they polish it up and they call it the Coverdale Bible or the Great Bible. And they present a copy of it to Henry viii. And he likes it, and he orders a copy put in every church in England, dusts his hands, and that's it. We broke them from Rome. We're good to go. But something unexpected happened. People began to read it and began to compare what's in this Bible to this king divorcing and beheading his wives. And a group starts that wants to purify the Church of England. Well, the king does not think he needs any purifying, so he persecutes them, he cancels them, they lose their job. He had an archbishop named William Laud L A U D. And he composed a list of all of the academia in England and put an O or a P by their name. O for Orthodox and P for Puritan. And the Puritans lost their jobs and they were canceled. And then there is another group that said it's beyond hope of purifying. We're just going to leave and we're going to meet in secret barns and basements by candlelight. They call themselves separatists or Baptists. We call them pilgrims. There's Scotland. And they acknowledge the king because he's Scottish after all. Right, James I was Scottish, but they said we do not want your bishops. We want to have elders elected from every church. These elders would meet together in a city. The word for elder is presbyter. The elders would meet together and form a covenant for the city. And the meeting is called synod. It comes from the word synagogue, which means meeting place. Synod means meeting. And these elders would meet. And the king didn't like that. He wanted them to have bishops who ruled the church top down, not elected elders and presbyters who represented the church members bottom up. And so quite an interesting history. The king sends, this is Charles ii. He sends up the Book of Common Prayer and the people don't want it. And so in St. Giles Cathedral, a market woman named Jenny Geddes hurls her three legged stool and it whacks into the minister and knocks the Book of Common Prayer out. People start throwing stuff, turns into a riot. And then the king says, you know what, I'm gonna send my army up there and force the churches to use the Book of Common Prayer. And the church, the pastor said, you know what, let's just not meet in the church building, let's meet outside, let's meet in a field. Well, guess what, the government sends its army into the field to chase them down and they kill them. It's called the killing time. They actually passed a law that if anybody would be a hearer at these field conventicles, they would be killed. All you got to do is listen and you'd be killed. And so this gives you an idea of what was going on. So the you did not make up your prayers in England at this time, because if you did, you could make up one that's wrong. So the government wrote all the policy prayers they could think of in a book. It's called the Book of Common Prayer. And there are good prayers, but you couldn't just make up your own. And if you're caught making up your own prayers in little Bible study groups called conventicles comes from the word covenant, Jesus said, where two or more gathered in my name, I'm in the midst. And if you're meeting them with small groups, the government would kick in the door and arrest you and drag you into the star chamber. It was a government hearing room with stars on the ceiling. And they would twist your arm and they would brand you on the face as a heretic with the letters SL for seditious libel. The Puritans called it the sign of Laud. L, A, U, D. Because Laud was the archbishop that was holding the trials. And some of them they cut off Their ears. And. And so then they would put you in a prison cell and wouldn't feed you. You had to have some friend that missed you. And so one of the Baptist founders, John Merton, he had a friend bring him a little food and a bottle of milk. But instead of a cork, it had a wad of paper. And when the guard wasn't around, he took a splinter, dipped it in the milk, and wrote out his pamphlets. And it dried. It's clear. He would fold it, put it in the empty bottle. His friend would take the bottle home, unfold the paper, hold it above a candle, and the heat of the candle would turn the milk brown, and they would see what he wrote, and they would print the pamphlets. So the early Baptists called the milk of the word because he wrote it in milk. But he would say things, no man ought to be persecuted for his conscience. The king didn't care about your conscience. He wanted outward submission. But they're like, no, God loves you. He wants you to love him back. But for love to be loved, it must be voluntary. And William Penn was put in the Tower of London. And he wrote, force makes hypocrites. Tis persuasion only that makes converts. That God is interested in your heart. He's not interested in outward compliance. And so these. So the Baptist separatists met in secret. Now the Quakers branched off of the Baptists, and they're like Baptists without a pastor. It's a society of friends. Right. But nevertheless, the government would arrest these separatist Baptists. So one of them was John Smith, not the one with Virginia, a different one. And he had the first Baptist church in England. That was John Robinson, who was the pilgrim pastor.

[A]

Hold the thought. We're going to come back because we're going to get to what happens to these pilgrims. And how do they form a government when they get to the. The New World? And how does that ultimately get to our Constitution, which is the greatest political document in history? Don't go anywhere. We're back in just a couple of minutes after the break. You're listening to I Don't have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. Welcome back to I Don't have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. On this Thanksgiving weekend, my guest, the great Bill Federer, we're talking about. Why should we be thankful as Americans, given our amazing form of government compared to other governments throughout human history? The freedoms that we have here, the prosperity we have here, I don't think many Americans realize the uniqueness and the freedoms and the prosperity that we have here in America dwarf What happens around the world and throughout human history if you want to be cured of what I call this leftist psychosis, where people think America is the worst country in the world, you haven't traveled very much. Just travel and you will discover that America is the greatest country in the history of the world, for good reason. Doesn't mean we don't have problems. Every country does because we're made of fallen people. But the political documents, our founding documents, and our form of government is superior to every other form of government in history. And our friend Bill Federer is showing us how we got to this government. Bill, you were talking about the persecution the Puritans had in England prior to coming here. You were about to talk about somebody name of John Smith having to do with the Quakers. Pick it up right there and let's just keep. Oh, before we do, tell us about the book you have. If people wanna really read about this, tell us about the book first and then we'll pick it up with John Smith.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So it's called the Treacherous world of the 16th century and how the Pilgrims Escaped It. It's a great book. It goes through everything that was going on in the world at the time the Pilgrims came over. I go through the Pasha of Persia, I go through the Ottoman Turks and the Sultan Suleiman and what's going on there. And it talked about Francis the First, the King of France, and he's captured by the King of Spain, and after a few concessions, he's let loose. But then the King, Francis the First, goes over, makes a treaty with the Sultan. It's called the Franco Ottoman Treaties. And then France, from that point on is now helping the Muslims. And they've did it for 300 years. And anyway, and then I go through what was going on in England, I go through the Pilgrims and the Puritans, and it's a fascinating book that lets you know what was going on at the time that caused the Pilgrims to come over in the first place. Now, I did want to mention a couple interesting quotes. So Teddy Roosevelt said, in no other place and at no other time has the experiment of government of the people, by the people and for the people been tried on so vast a scale and as here in our own country. So they recognize that something really unique happened here. Ralph Waldo Emerson said, America appears like a last effort of divine providence in behalf of the human race. So the founders knew that something was happening here, that the rest of the world's kings. At the time of the Pilgrims, you had Chinese emperors, Japanese emperors, Korean emperors, Indian maharajas. Raja means king, Maha means great. You had Russian czars, Mongolian khans, Muslim sultans, African chieftains, kings of Spain, France and Austria. Even the Dutch had Stadtholders, which were like their version of a king. But the whole world was top down with kings. And it's a hierarchical system. If you are friends with the guy at the top, you are more equal. If you're not their friend, you are less equal. And if you're their enemy, you're dead. It's called treason or you're a slave. It's a pyramid structure to government that keeps repeating itself all over the world. And they keep getting bigger with the latest military advancements. And it goes back to human nature. Every one of us, if we were king, would tend to prefer our family and friends over strangers and enemies. It just happens. And then that preferring your family and friends turns into the ruling class, the elites, and then all the commoners that don't get that. And then if somebody wants to point out your favoritism, you're gonna wanna shut them up and you end up getting oppressive and you're there with a king. King is the norm. And so if you think of it, let's say there's a bad king and we all work really hard and we get rid of him and we put in a good king, but then his sons are bad. So now we're back where we started, we gotta get rid of that king. And then we work hard, put in a good king, but his sons are bad. I mean, who's the best king ever? David, his oldest son Amnon rapes a daughter. Tamar is murdered by the son Absalom, who tries to overthrow David. And then Adonijah tries to overthrow David. And then Solomon's good for a while until he marries a thousand wives and builds pagan temples. I mean, here's the best king ever. David and his own sons go off track. And so the brilliance of a covenant form of government, which is what the pilgrims had and which is what ancient Israel had that first 400 years out of Egypt, is you get rid of the bad king, but you maintain order in society without the rubber band snapping back with a new king. And so when ancient Israel came out of Egypt around 1400 BC, they had a covenant form of government. It was one download. It wasn't like Greeks and Romans where, hey, let's try this, a little of that. We'll have the elites represented with this group and we'll have the commoners represented with that group. And we'll, you know, and the People with the money over here. Here. No, in Israel's case, it was one download and it worked for 400 years. I mean, think of it. They go from 400 years of slavery, they can't even read, and suddenly they get the most unique form of government that the planet has ever seen. And it works. And it's all based on everybody being taught the law and everybody being personally accountable to God to follow the law.

[A]

Until, as you mentioned in the first show, for those that haven't heard it, the priests went woke in ancient Israel, and the period of the judges ended poorly, when everybody was doing right in their own eyes. So you have to stay close to God and know that God is watching in order for this to work. And if people forget about God or the priests go woke and then the people forget about God, it doesn't work.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Yale President Ezra stiles said in 1783, the secular welfare of God's ancient people depended on their virtue, their religion, their observance of that holy covenant which Israel entered into with God. You know, a little illustration, you're driving in a city and there's construction cranes putting up high rises. And your eyes are attracted to the high part of the crane, but there's something on the other side that you do not notice that is very important. It is called a counterweight. And so the prosperity and success of a nation draws everybody's attention. But the counterweight is the virtue of the people. And so it's with any politician or any sports athlete or any actor or actress that they have a lot of popularity. And you can see them rising above the others. But if they don't have personal morality, the whole thing can fall over in a day. It can. All of a sudden, they fooled around with the wrong people. They got into drugs, they got into this, and their great big career just collapses. There's actually videos on YouTube where you can watch these big cranes, and if they don't have the proper counterweight, the crane starts vibrating a little and then a little bit more. Then all of a sudden, the whole huge crane just crashes to the ground. So those Christian leaders that have a lot of attention, they have to have private, personal morality. The higher you get, the more personal morality you need. And, you know, we both knew Charlie Kirk. I remember one time being with him and Rob McCoy. And Rob says, what are your plans for the weekend? And this was when Charlie was like 26, and he goes, oh, I'm going to fast forward this weekend. I have some big things I need to get God's Direction on I thought, what 26 year old is going to fast for the weekend? Well, what are your plans for the weekend? Oh, I'm going to fast and pray. But he was able to reach a height of getting world attention because he had private morality. And so that's an indication for the entire nation. If a nation is going to have success, you need to have a moral populace.

[A]

And now, Bill, when you. You were going earlier through the. Before the last break about how the Pilgrims were persecuted when they eventually did get to America, they tried socialism in Jamestown, I believe, and explain what happened.

[B]

Yeah, well, so a couple stories that are worth mentioning. So in England, they're meeting at the home of William Brewster. He is like a lord, has a manor, he's like a postal general, whatever. And so the Pilgrims are meeting there, he's a separatist, and they're illegal. And so the government raids their little Bible study at his manor and puts them in jail. But then they get out, then they get put in jail again. So a group of these pilgrim separatists, Baptists, sell their property and arrange to get on a boat to go to the Netherlands. The Netherlands are seven provinces that worked together for 80 years to get independent of Spain. And the seven provinces did not all believe the same thing, but they're willing to work together. So they had tolerance. So the most tolerant place in all of Europe was the Netherlands. And so the Pilgrims say, we're going to go over there. And they buy passage on a ship. And right before the ship takes off, they, the captain suspects something, robs them, turns them over to the police, and they're put in jail. Another group of these pilgrim separatists arrange for a Dutch ship to sail up the coast. And they would be waiting in little rowboats and row out there really fast, get on the ship and sail away. The pilgrims show up a day early and the waves are so rough, the women and children say, can we wait on shore? Well, the ship shows up, the men are stowing something, and somebody saw this ship and snitched to the police. And they've come over the hill and captured the women and children. And the Dutch captain says, I don't have an army with me. And he sails away with the men. You can just picture these women and children standing on the shore watching that boat getting smaller and smaller until it disappears over the horizon with all their husbands and sons. And for two years they pass those women and children from one court in jail to another, to another, to another. Finally, a judge said, you really didn't do Anything wrong? Go home. They go, duh, we sold our homes. So just to get them out of their hair, they bought passage, put them on a ship, sent them over to Holland. They asked around for anybody who knew English speaking people and they found their husbands and they settled in Leiden, Holland. Now, interestingly enough, the Muslims controlled Spain for 700 years and the Christians were made into second class citizens and the Jews were second class, but they sort of existed in the margin. They weren't Muslim and they weren't Christian. So they sort of. And so when the Spanish drove out the Muslims, there was. You would have kings be assassinated a lot. You know, like good king Henry IV of France was assassinated. And so the king of Spain suspected that maybe some Muslims were pretending to be Jews. So he decides he's going to force all the Jews to convert to Christianity. They called them Moreno's or new conversos. And if they didn't, they were driven out. Some of them went to Fez in Morocco, some of them went to the Ottoman Empire, but a whole bunch of them went to the Netherlands and they settled in Leiden, Holland, where the pilgrims were. And so now you have the pilgrims rubbing shoulders with Jews and they begin to identify with the Jews. And they said, well, you left the pharaoh and we left the King of England and you crossed the Red Sea and we crossed the English Channel and you found your promised land. We're looking for our promised land. And of course the Jews had their feast of tabernacles and that was a Thanksgiving that the pilgrims would have heard about.

[A]

Oh, and we'll see what happens right after the break. I'm talking to the great Bill Federer. You're listening to I Don't have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. With me, Frank Turek on the American Family Radio Network and many other stations around the country. Website crossexamined.org that's cross examined with a D on the end of it.org we're back soon. Don't go anywhere.

[C]

Students across America are more open to the truth of Christianity than ever before. And Dr. Frank Turek is taking the powerful evidence for God to campuses like UC Berkeley, the University of Georgia, Ohio State and Alabama, reaching thousands in person and millions more online. But every event now requires costly security and to keep students safe. And Cross Examine never charges students to attend. That's why we urgently need your support. The culture is dark, but hearts are open. Help keep the light of truth shining by donating [e-mail] that's cross examine with a D on the end dot org.

[A]

We have so much to be thankful for here in America, ladies and gentlemen. That's what we're talking about today with my friend, the great Bill Federer, an amazing historian that knows a lot about a lot. And we're talking about how the Pilgrims got to America and what they did once they got here, and why this form of government that we have here in America is second to none. It's unique in world history and you should be thankful for that. Bill, we were talking about how this group of Jews and this group of Pilgrims are now in Holland together and they're about to come to America. At least some of them are. Tell us what happened next.

[B]

Yeah. Now, they were thinking of going to Guyana and William Bradford says some had thoughts and were earnest for Guyana. Those for Guyana alleged the country was rich and fruitful and blessed with a perpetual spring. But to this it was answered that was out of the question. For if they should live and do well, the jealous Spaniard would never suffer them long, but would displant them and overthrow them as he did the French in Florida. What's the French in Florida? Well, Catherine de Medici, Queen of France, killed 30,000 Protestants in the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre in 1572. And so this was the setting over. And so you had these Huguenots during this beginning time of persecution, fleeing. And in 1565 you had 300 of these French Protestants try to settle in Florida around where Jacksonville is today. And the Spanish found out about it and massacred the men and took the women and children away. And so the pilgrim says, we don't want to go anywhere near Spain. And so they decided to go to Virginia. Now Virginia was started in 1607. It was a king run colony. And the Pilgrims get blown off course, providentially so, because had they landed in Jamestown, 4,000 died in Jamestown between 1607 and 1624. I mean, one winter starts off with 500 people, at the end of the winter there's 50. And then they had an Indian massacre in 1622 where a quarter of the people of Virginia were wiped out by the, by the Indians. So had the Pilgrims made it to Virginia, they probably would have been killed. So they get blown, of course, to Massachusetts and the captain. So this is, is this 1620, 1620. And they try sailing south, but also off the coast of Cape Cod, it's really shallow and where the sand, you could, you know, ever been to the beach and you, and you walk out like a quarter of a mile and only comes up to your knees, you know, yeah. And so in Massachusetts you can be a mile off coast and there'll be sand under the, right under the. And the ships would get stuck and in a storm the waves would smash into pieces. And so the captain says it's too dangerous. Goes back to Plymouth Rock and he says everybody get off the boat and. And the pilgrims ask a question. They said, who's gonna be in charge? There's 102 of us in the boat. Nobody's been picked by the king to be in charge. We were gonna go to Jamestown and submit to the king's government. And what do they do? They take their little Covenant Church group and they make it their civil government. It's called the Mayflower Compact. So John Robinson, the pilgrim pastor that branched off of the John Smith Church, the first Baptist church in England. So John Robinson said, we are knit together as a body in coven, the Lord tied to care for each other's good. So they weren't Anglicans, they were separatists. And their attitude was the only ones that come to church are the ones drawn by the Holy Spirit. It's not the Anglican model that everybody in the country is automatically Anglican and everybody has to pay taxes to the Anglican government that's going to pay the pastors. No, this is just a little. And so in this emergency, they take their Covenant Church government and they make it their civil government. And so the Mayflower Compact says we in the presence of God, covenant ourselves together into a civil body politic. They take their Covenant Church group and they make it their covenant civil body politic. In the womb of the Mayflowers, conceive the child of self government. It's a polarity change in the flow of power on planet Earth. It's not a top down rule by kings, it's bottom up ruled by we. And so this covenant form of government is you get rights and blessings from God. You're fair to your neighbor because you're doing it as unto God. Even Os Guinness said on June 5, 2017, Covenantal ideas in England were the lost cause, but they became the winning cause in New England. Covenant shaped constitutionalism. The American Constitution is a nationalized, secularized form of covenant. Covenant lies behind constitution. And did you know the word federal is Latin for covenant. We have a covenant form of government where we the people government from the consent of the governed. So America is an experiment of a polarity change in the flow of power. Instead of top down like a dead pyramid, it's bottom up like a living tree where every root, the tiniest little capillary roots all participate in sucking in nutrients to keep this bottom up form of government alive. And so that's what the Pilgrims did. And then you had in 1630, the great Puritan migration, the King Charles I turns up the heat in England and you had 20,000 puritans fleeing to America and you had pastors and churches founding cities.

[A]

So pastors, 20,000 come across 10 years after the Mayflower.

[B]

Yeah, there's just a couple hundred Pilgrims, but now we got 20,000. The ones that stayed in England had a civil war and actually won and for 15 years had an American experiment called the English Commonwealth where they had a parliament and representative government, but when Oliver Cromwell dies, they bring back the king. So they basically had a 15 year American experiment in England, but they brought the king back. But over in our side of the ocean, you had pastors and churches founding cities. So Pastor John Roger Williams, rather Roger Williams and the First Baptist Church in America founded the city of Providence, Rhode Island. Pastor Thomas Hooker and the First Congregational Church found the city of Hartford, Connecticut, pastors and churches founding. Everybody's involved in church, everybody's involved in city government because it's the church founding the city.

[A]

And so the church building was where they met for political meetings, correct?

[B]

Yeah, they called it the meeting house. Yeah, I mean, why build a separate building just to talk about a different topic. And so the word synagogue means meeting house, Ancient Israel, that's where they would, rabbi would teach the law. That's where they'd do their city business. And so in New England, that's where the pastor taught the Bible and that's where you do your city business. And the word paulus means city. Indianapolis, Minneapolis and Annapolis. And politics is simply the business of the city. And since it was the church founding the city, everybody's involved in the business of the city. All the church members are involved in.

[A]

Politics before we get to that. And all church members should be involved in politics because we're supposed to love God and love our neighbor. And how do we love our neighbor if we don't put laws in place that protect our neighbors from evil? We're not being good neighbors if we're not engaged politically to protect innocent people from evil and also, by the way, keep our freedoms to preach and live the gospel. But Bill, I want to go back to William Bradford's experiment with socialism when he first got here. Can you unpack that for us?

[B]

Yeah. So in the Middle Ages, there were no companies because it was the sin of usury to pay or receive interest. I mean, they did have, like the Jesuits, you know, religious, what they called companies. And then they did have guilds, which were small cobblers having a thousand rules to set up a shoe shop in town. But as far as companies go, they had none, because it was a sin of usury to pay or receive interest. After the Reformation, you had the first companies. You had the Company of Merchant Adventurers from England. In 1555, they were going to go north of Russia to get to China. Didn't work. They froze in the ice. All of them died, except a couple were rescued on a dog sled, taken to Moscow. They met Ivan the Terrible, and they changed it to the Muscovy Company for Moscow, but they didn't make much money. But then you had the Dutch East India Company, and it was the wealthiest company of all of them combined for 200 years. And they made it where instead of just a company of merchant adventures, anybody could invest in a ship going to Indonesia. And when it came back filled full of cinnamon and nutmeg, you'd get paid a profit. And if you wanted to sell your interest, they invented something called the Amsterdam Stock Exchange. And if the boat was captured by Muslim pirates or sunk in a storm, they. Well, that's when the Dutch invented insurance companies. And. But then in England, you had the Virginia Company, right? First they had the British East India Company. So now that you have the Dutch East India Company and now the British East India Company, that ended up taking over India. But then they started the Virginia Company. This was a little bit of a history you had prior to companies, if you wanted to do something big, you had to hit up a rich guy like a king, like Columbus hit up, you know, Ferdinand and Isabella. And so a rich guy named Sir Walter Raleigh put up £30,000 sterling to settle Virginia, the colony of Roanoke. But when the Spanish were attacking England during the Spanish Armada, 1588, the colony of Roanoke got neglected for six years. When they finally went back, they were all gone. Called the Lost Colony. They just went off to live with the Indians. And so since Sir Walter Raleigh lost money, nobody in England wanted to put up any money. So they said, well, hey, how about if we pool the money and create the Virginia Company? And the king's attitude was, okay, I'll give you a monopoly and I won't. And I don't care what you do in the land where you settle, I just get a percentage when you come back to England. This goes back to what's called the Letter of Mark. So you had Spain controlled Latin, Central and South America, and they had Gold. And you had French, Dutch, English pirates robbing the gold and they were called privateers. But once you rob the Spanish ship of gold, what are you going to sail in a circle forever? No, you got to land somewhere and spend it. And so Queen Elizabeth told Sir Francis Drake, you can land your ship back in England and I won't ask questions where you got the gold, but I get a percentage. So they're called privateers with a letter of mark. And so that developed into companies where the monarch was saying, look, I don't care what you're doing in this other country, but when you finally bring a profit back to England, I get a percentage. And so the Virginia Company, they didn't know why they were there, really. The first ship they sent back was filled full of iron pyrite, fool's gold. Right. But then they got on bad terms with the Indians and they kidnapped the chief's daughter, Pocahontas. And Elizabeth Warren is that old.

[A]

I did not know that. Anyway, sorry, keep going.

[B]

Yeah. And so, but then, so the chief wouldn't attack the people in Jamestown because the chief's daughter was there. And the guy named John Rolfe falls in love and she gets baptized as Rebecca and they get married and there's like a peace for a little while, but it sort of falls apart because they would shoot guns and ask questions later. And you had the starving time, you had the Indian attacks. And again, it was a king run colony. But the Pilgrims, it's interesting, they didn't have money, so they had to approach the merchants of London. So it was basically called the London Company. And they said, we'll front you the money for your boat ride, but we're going to write a bylaws for the company. And they pressured the Pilgrims into it. They didn't want it, but the bylaws said everything would be owned in common for seven years and then afterwards divided up equally between the planters and the investors. And so the bylaws said this. All profits and benefits that are got by trade, traffic, trucking, working, fishing, or any other means shall remain in ye common stock in order to have their livelihood, meat, drink and apparel and provision out of ye common stock. So they were trying this socialism. Everything's owned in common.

[A]

What could possibly go wrong? We're going to find out right after the break with the great Bill Federer what happened. And then I'm going to ask Bill, what are the top three facts about the United States? We or he would hope young people would know. So don't go anywhere. Back in Just a couple of minutes. Why should you be thankful because you're an American? Well, if you really want to know how we got to where we are, how we got our amazing form of government and the history behind it, go back and listen to the previous podcast and then this one. But the book that Bill has written has a lot more. The detail in it. It's called the Treacherous world of the 16th century and how the Pilgrims Escaped it, the prequel to America's Freedom by Bill Federer. And his website is americanminute.com we just got 12 minutes left. Bill has so many fascinating details. He was just talking about before the break how the Pilgrims were in a pact where everything had to be shared for the first seven years when they got here. Pick it up there, Bill. What happened? And then why doesn't socialism work?

[B]

So Governor William Bradford said, the failure of that experiment of communal service, which was tried for several years by good and honest men, proves the emptiness of the theory of Plato and other ancients applauded by some of latter times. Right? We talked about Plato. He's the first one that talked about everybody owning everything in common. All right? And it sounds good till you think it through. Somebody has to be in the government handing out the common stuff. But Plato's just theoretical. Sir Thomas Moore's island of Utopia. It's theoretical. The Pilgrims knew they were the first people in world history actually trying to live out the owning of stuff in common. And she says this proves the emptiness of the theory of Plato, that the taking away of private property and possession of it in community would make a state happy and flourishing as if they were wiser than God. For in this instance, community of property was found to breed much confusion, for the young men who were most able and fit for service objected to being forced to spend their time working for other men's wives and children without any recompense. The strong man or the resourceful man had no more share of food, clothes, et cetera, than the weak man who was not able to do a quarter what the other was thought injustice. The aged and graver men who were ranked and equalized in labor, food, clothes, with the humbler and younger ones thought it some indignity and disrespect to them. As for men's wives who were obliged to do service for other men, such as cooking, washing their clothes, etc. They considered it a kind of slavery, and many husbands would not brook it or allow it. Let none argue that this is due to human failing rather than to this communistic plan of life in Itself. William Bradford calls it a communistic plan of life. He goes on, I answer that God in his wisdom, saw that another plan of life was fitter for them. So they began to consider how to raise more corn, obtain a better crop, so they might not continue to endure the misery of one like starving through a winter. After much debate, the governor, with the chief among them, allowed each man to plant corn for his own household. Wow, what a novel idea. You plant corn for your household. So every family was assigned a parcel of land. This was very successful. It made all hands very industrious, so that much more corn was planted than otherwise would have been gave far better satisfaction. The women now went willingly into the field and took their little ones with them to plant corn, while before they would allege weakness and inability, and to have compelled them would have been thought great oppression. So here the Pilgrims said, hey, let's try everything in common. Didn't work, right? I mean, you had a lot of.

[A]

People starved to death when they tried that.

[B]

Yeah. And so it's like you get your own plot of land, and the mom's like, okay, kids, we're gonna go plant today, you know, And. And because of that, they had an abundant harvest. And you had Squanto, a fascinating story, but he got Chief Mastasoit to show up with 90 Indians, and. And there's only 52 pilgrims. So the first Thanksgiving had twice as many Indians almost, than Pilgrims. And this was interesting. Out of those 52 pilgrims, only four adult women, 18 had come across, but all the other ones died. Wow. And you had 24 men and then 24 teenagers and children. Obviously, some of those were girls, and I'm sure they helped out, but, you know, it was because of the abundance that they had now.

[A]

Things were in better shape once they went to a private property system, which, by the way, the Bible presupposes thou shall not steal. Presupposes you have the ability to have private property, but. Go ahead, Bill.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And so 102 pilgrims, half die the first winter. William Bradford writes, 16th March, 1621. A certain Indian came boldly among them, spoke to them in broken English. Name was Samoset. He told them of another Indian whose name was Squanto, a native of this place who had been in England and could speak English better than himself. So there was a Captain Weymouth who was looking for a northwest passage. They thought that, you know, a river, St. Lawrence Riverway, would somehow connect to China. And so he had some Indians come aboard and took them to England and taught Them English even introduced them to William Shakespeare and to the Earl of Hampton, who financed the look for the Northwest Passage. And so this was he mentions there are five Indians and three have mentions, their names. And one of the names was Tishquantem. And so William Bradford says that Tishquantem then worked for a merchant in Newfoundland and in 1614 was taken back. But then another bad guy named Thomas Hunt. The Pilgrims were religious, but not everybody else was. And you had unscrupulous people who would lure Indians on board, like Thomas Hunt, say, hey, you want to barter? And would lock them below deck and then take them to Malaga, Spain, and sell them into slavery. And so the Muslims controlled Spain for 700 years, and they had slave markets. Over a million Europeans were sold into Muslim slavery in these slave markets. But after the Spanish drove the Muslims out, they kept the slave markets going. And so Squanto and these others were taken there. Some Franciscan friars, right, Some Catholic priests heard about it, made a ruckus, and they got custody of the Indians and gave them their freedom. And Squanto finds his way across Europe, goes back to England, meets some the leaders of the Newfoundland Company, works for them. They drop him back off on the shores of America in June of 1620, only to find out his entire tribe had been wiped out in a plague.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And William Bradford says that three years earlier, a French ship was shipwrecked at Cape Cod, and the Indians, the sailors, got ashore, but the Indians never left. Watching them and dogging them till they got the advantage, killed them all but three or four, whom they sent from one Indian chief to another, making sport with them, using them worse than slaves. Evidently, one of them must have had an illness and it wiped out the whole tribe. Now, the Patuxent tribe. Now, had Squanto not been kidnapped, he most certainly would have died in the plague, because everybody else did, right? So, you know, there's sort of a twist. But he comes back, his whole tribe is gone. He goes off to live with the Wampanoag tribe. And that was in June of 1620. November is when the Pilgrims land and they have them die. And then in the spring is when you could just imagine Samoset going into Squanto's teepee and he's all depressed, and he goes, hey, Squant, you wouldn't believe it. There's a bunch of English people wanting to start a settlement on your old stomping ground. And you can just picture Squanto walking out of the woods and going to these Pilgrims, and he Goes, oh, you guys from England? Yeah, I used to live there. Yeah, you know. Oh, yeah, St. Paul's Chapel. Yeah, I'm on Wharf Street. I know all that stuff. And he goes, and here. I grew up here. I know this land like the back of my head. Over the hill, there's a spring. And so William Bradley, it's a triple.

[A]

Effect bill of evil. You know, they take him into slavery. He comes back and he helps them. Right there.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so William Bradford says, squanto showed them how to plant corn, where to take fish on the commodities. They said, we tried planting corn. He goes, no, you gotta take some fish, put him on top of the kernel, bury it, and then guard it for two weeks to keep the wolves away. The fish decomposes. You got fertile soil, and you have a nice stalk of corn. He taught him how to take the corn, shake it over a fire and make popcorn. And they said, well, we tried fish. And he goes, no, these are salmon. They spawn looking at the moon. They said, you know, in April, this river is going to be packed with fish. And then he taught him how to go down to the riverbank and squeegee in the mud and catch eels and clams. And then Bradford says, nor was there a man among them who had ever seen a beaver skin until instructed by Squanto. And it took 40 years worth of beaver skins to pay off the debt for their boat ride. And then again, Squanto puts him on good terms as an interpreter. And so they did not experience the attacks that Jamestown had. Then Squanto dies in September of 1621. And William Bradford writes that they were exploring the bay and the freezing rain came, and they could not get around the shoals of Cape Cod for the flats and breakers, so they put into Manamoic Bay. Here, Squanto fell ill of Indian fever, bleeding much of the nose, which the Indians take for a symptom of death. He bequeathed several of his belongings to some of his English friends as remembrances. And he begged the governor to pray for him that he might go to the Englishman's God in heaven.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Well, the Englishman's God, that's Jesus, right?

[A]

That's right.

[B]

These pilgrims are serious Christians. They left their entire nation. They left everybody they knew. They risked all the sea voyage and all the struggles. Why? Because they wanted to worship Jesus freely. And so. So Squanto's witnessing them and their Christian faith, and he says, I want to go to your God. And I believe that Governor Bradford led him in the prayer of salvation.

[A]

There's so much more in the book the Treacherous world of the 16th century and how Pilgrims Escaped it, the prequel to the Americas to America's Revolution by Bill Federer. You need to get it. But, bill, we got 45 seconds left. Give us the three facts about the United States you wish young people would know and believe. Just, just. If you only had three, what would they be?

[B]

Individual. So that you have a worth as an individual. Because you are made in the image of God. And this God is not a respecter of persons. Every other group in the world. Your worth is dependent on what group you belong to. Are you a Muslim male? Are you a Brahmin in the highest caste? Are you a CCP member and contribute to the state? No. You. You. You have a worth as an individual. Beautiful. Number two, you get to earn your own income. You get to have ideas. And the government doesn't take it away. It's your idea. We have patents. You can work all night and come up with an idea and you get to benefit from it. Other countries, if you have an idea, the government just takes it away, right? And then you get to pursue your dreams. And this is not something that other people can. Other countries can do. If you want to be a leader in most other countries, you got to basically kiss up to those that are already in leadership. In America, you can start from nothing and then work hard and get elected and become president.

[A]

Amazing. The great Bill Federer, ladies and gentlemen. Thanks so much, Bill. Go back and listen to the previous podcast we just did with Bill and look in our archives. We've done several. He's amazing. American Minute.com, ladies and gentlemen. American Minute.com. check him out there. Our website is cross crossexamine.org we have a lot to be thankful for. You're an individual. You can follow your dreams. You can keep what you earn. It's great. All right, see you here next time. God bless.

[C]

Dr. Frank Turek is bringing powerful evidence for God to campuses like UC Berkeley, the University of Georgia, and Ohio State, reaching thousands in person and millions online. But each event now requires a costly security. Your gift helps the light of truth pierce the darkness. Give [e-mail].