← I Don't Have Enough FAITH to Be an ATHEIST
I Don't Have Enough FAITH to Be an ATHEIST
Why Are Christian Institutions Trading Truth for a Leftist Agenda? with Megan Basham
01:01:44
Loading summary
Transcript131 lines
- [00:03]
A
Ladies and gentlemen, we know there's enormous pressure on people personally to conform with the culture. And you probably feel that every day, especially if you're out in the culture and you work, say in a corporation or you're online and you see that people are not just unchristian by anti Christian, but anti Christian and you're. We're all tempted to say, hey, I don't need to be as strident as I normally am. Maybe I can massage what my beliefs are so I'm not condemned as much. We're all tempted to do this, especially if you have a more peaceful personality and you're not really someone that likes confrontation. You're probably going to want to say, I don't want to really get involved in this fight. Now. I'm just going to be quiet about this or I'm going to. I'm going to shave the rough edges off this position or that kind of thing. Well, it not only happens to individuals, it can also happen to institutions. And when it happens, happens to institutions. We need to pay attention because some of us may be donating to some of these institutions. Some of us may be sending our children to some of these institutions. Some of us may think these institutions are institutions we can trust for good theology and good practice, when in fact they've been compromised and we don't even know it. Well, somebody who can help us discover whether or not these organizations are compromised is the great Megan Basham, ladies and gentlemen. Here she is. Is she brought her own audience as well, but we just shut them up for a second. Megan. Everyone knows Megan wrote this great book called Shepherds for Sale. And there are so many people that hate this book, which means it's really good because she's exposed a lot of malfeasance and a lot of this creeping secularism or creeping wokeism in so many of our institutions. Megan. Before we get into some new stories that are similar to what you have in Shepherds for Sale, everyone wants to know how you're doing personally because you came through cancer treatment. So give us an update. What's happening?
- [02:08]
B
Yeah, thanks for asking, Frank, and thanks for having me. You know, 2024 was definitely a roller coaster ride. In August, hit the New York Times bestseller list, and then in November, by the way, you have stage three colon cancer. So it was kind of a wild year. But, you know, I. God's providence, he kind of put me on the bench for a while and did some chemo and radiation and surgery and praise God. As of right now, I have been declared cancer Free. So we got clean margins in my surgery and have a couple of higher risk factors for recurrence. So, you know, just asking for prayer that it doesn't come back. I have my first big scans right after Christmas, so just praying.
- [02:49]
A
So it was 23 that you got it though, not 24, right?
- [02:52]
B
24. No, it was 2024 that I got it and I spent.
- [02:55]
A
Oh, 24. I'm sorry, what am I doing?
- [02:56]
B
At the end of 2024, I was diagnosed and so pretty much spent all of 2025 going through treatment.
- [03:03]
A
Okay. Yeah, I'm in the wrong year.
- [03:05]
B
The years are going by fast, I'll be honest. It's hard to keep up with them.
- [03:09]
A
Somebody said this, you know, the days are long, the years are short. You know what I'm saying?
- [03:12]
B
True. So true. Yeah. Especially as your kids grow up.
- [03:16]
A
Now I've got. My brother in law is going through cancer for the third time treatment.
- [03:20]
B
Oh, man.
- [03:21]
A
He says that there's something out there known as scanxiety.
- [03:26]
B
Yep, yep. I've got a little bit of scanxiety right now. In fact, coming up now I know that my first scans are coming right after Christmas, so.
- [03:34]
A
All right.
- [03:35]
B
Yeah, if you'll say a prayer for scanxiety.
- [03:37]
A
Yeah, yeah. Pray for Megan. She's doing great work. You're on the Daily Wire. You do a morning. Are you on every morning?
- [03:43]
B
I'm not on every morning. I'm on a few times a week. So I kind of. I'm sort of a Jill of all trades in some ways. I do are podcast reporting. I do some print stories. And in fact, right now I'm actually working on a very fun project associated with our new release, Pendragon, which I'm super excited about.
- [04:02]
A
What's Pen Dragon?
- [04:04]
B
Pen Dragon. The Pendragon Cycle is a fantasy novel series with strong Christian themes. Very. I think they were published in the 90s, maybe. I think the 90s by a guy named Steven Lawhead, really beloved by fantasy fiction fans. So we have turned it into a live action fantasy series that's gonna be premiering in January. And I've seen it and it's so good. So I get to do some associated projects with that. And I'm a fantasy geek, so I'm super excited about it.
- [04:39]
A
And this. Is this for adults or kids or both?
- [04:41]
B
I would say PG 13. You know, there's some violence. Some of the costuming of the pagan culture is, you know, a little more revealing than, you know, what you would want to see a Christian lady wearing. But that's Part of the story arc is you see how these characters change as they go from pagan to.
- [05:00]
A
And where can people watch it?
- [05:02]
B
Daily Wire. And by the way, I didn't intend to come on and plug this, but I'm glad we got in the conversation. Yeah, no, you can watch it at Daily Wire. And it's so good. I'm so excited about it.
- [05:12]
A
All right now, right now I'm looking at a story that you just released on the 5th of December. So a week or so ago, a little couple of weeks ago, religious NGO that settled Afghan shooter condemned Trump for additional vetting order.
- [05:30]
B
Yeah.
- [05:31]
A
Now what, what is this about World Relief, which I always thought was some sort of missionary organization. Am I wrong about that? What is World Relief?
- [05:43]
B
I would say that you are. So to back it up a little, you brought up my book and I tell you that one of the strongest criticisms and pushback that I received about my book was my exposure of World Relief because a lot of people look at this as a Christian humanitarian organization. And so they were upset with what they perceived as my criticisms of this organization. Now, I would say this was not about criticizing them. This was simply about exposing the reality of where that organization gets its funding and what kind of work it's been doing. So it was established by the national association of Evangelicals, I think, way back in 1944. And for many years it was just that it was truly a humanitarian organization. It was privately funded, but really Starting in the 2000s, it started to get more and more of its funding from the federal government, specifically to resettle refugees and asylum seekers. So to give you an example, from 2021 to 2025, World Relief received something like $330 million from the federal government for its settlement work with immigrants. And so as part of that, as you can imagine, if your organization is receiving that kind of money to do that kind of work, you become incentivized to back the sort of federal policies that will allow that work to continue. So World Relief has been heavily involved with, with groups like the Evangelical Immigration Table, the National Immigration Forum, these are George Soros backed groups. They also received money from other open borders, left wing foundations, but they are still known as Christian. Now, before I get into the meat of this story, one key thing to know about World Relief is that while they do present themselves as Christian and they do present themselves as a Christian charity, they're actually not allowed to, to proselytize by law. So because they take that federal money, they aren't allowed to tell these immigrants that they're settling in the United States about Jesus. That's illegal.
- [07:54]
A
So let me ask a question then. It's illegal according to who?
- [07:58]
B
According to United States federal law. So if they are taking that federal funding, which they are, to the tune of hundreds of millions, they therefore cannot proselytize. So they can't.
- [08:10]
A
All they can do is do physical relief work. No. Spiritual relief work, correct?
- [08:17]
B
That is correct.
- [08:18]
A
So why aren't they just. Why are they even calling themselves Christian then? I mean, obviously Christians should do work, but they shouldn't be. They should do relief work, but they shouldn't be hamstrung. Like, we can't say why we're doing this. Why would any group want to do that?
- [08:38]
B
Right? Well, I mean, they would want to do it because when they were a private organization, they could proselytize, but once they became a publicly funded organization, then you can no longer do that. And so that is kind of the dirty little secret of a lot of these religious NGOs that work within immigration. They sort of sell themselves as we're spreading the gospel, but they're actually not spreading the gospel because they're not allowed to do that.
- [09:05]
A
This is why I love Samaritan's Purse, by the way. Because Franklin Grant would never put up with that. I mean, you can't, he can't say two sentences without saying the gospel somewhere, Right? And I mean, his whole deal is, yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna bring all sorts of relief. We're gonna give you some. All this food, and we're gonna rebuild your house and all that, but it's all in the name of Jesus. He would never, he would never do this. But now World Relief appears, at least from this story. And just to unpack this story further, this story is about the fact that that Afghan shooter who shot those two servicemen, or a serviceman and a service woman in Washington, D.C. last month, those people, according to some, were not. Or the shooter was not properly vetted.
- [09:59]
B
Right.
- [09:59]
A
So the shooter's not properly vetted, obviously. And some people are saying, well, we got to re vet people that were. That came from Afghanistan. And World Relief is objecting to that, saying, no, that would be an insult to these people. They've already been properly vetted. That's their position.
- [10:18]
B
Yes. So that gets to, you know, when you incentivize an organization like this to want to see more immigration because it's justifies their existence, you start to take positions like this. So on November 24, Reuters reported on the Trump administration issuing a new order so this was an internal memo that they were going to re vet all of the refugees that were brought into the United States during the Biden administration. And this was particularly with an eye to those Afghan refugees because of our disastrous pullout. It was chaotic, there was no order, it was rushed. And so the Trump administration, as we can now see, was rightly concerned that we don't feel that many of these people who are coming from Muslim majority nations were properly vetted. So that was on November 24th. The same day World Relief then issued a statement condemning the Trump administration's order to further vet these refugees who had been brought into the country. So, you know, just to quote from that World Relief President and CEO Mile Green, he called the additional vetting a moral and and ethical betrayal of due process. And World Relief VP Matt Sorens said that it would re traumatize those refugees who had been brought into the United States. So we didn't wanna re traumatize people who were being given refuge here in the US So the day after that, Ramanula Lockenwall, the alleged shooter, well, he's, I mean, I'll say alleged because you have to say these things, but obviously there were many witnesses watched him shoot two American National Guards people. One, a 20 year old young woman was killed and the other one I think is still in serious condition, 24 years old. And when he did this, he was yelling Allahu Akbar. So we can kind of tell from that what his motivation was. So, I mean, there's a huge irony in the fact that not only did World Relief issue this statement condemning the additional vetting the day before, but but they also reportedly were the ones who settled this terrorist in Bellingham, Washington. So world related, you know, all of the current records that we have, they were the only ones working in that region. They seem to be the only NGO who could have settled Ramanula Lockenwall. I asked them, others have asked them, NPR asked them and they said we can't confirm or deny that we settled him, but I would say that non answer is a fairly obvious answer.
- [12:50]
A
So these folks think this. Let me just get this straight. This World Relief folk now think that it makes more sense to not put Afghan refugees through another vetting process and risk more jihad attacks because that would just be too traumatic on the people that we brought into the country?
- [13:17]
B
That was their argument. Yes. And they said, you don't even need.
- [13:22]
A
Christianity to know that this is silly. I mean, right. That's the embarrassing thing about it. I mean, if they were secular people, it'd Be embarrassing enough. These people are supposed to be Bible believing Christians.
- [13:34]
B
Yes. And Bible believing Christians, by the way, who create Bible studies on immigration and they send them into your churches and those are funded with left wing money. So. So, you know, these were some of the things that I covered in the book. And you know, I'm not trying to pat myself on the back, but, you know, these continuing revelations and events since the book has come out have simply underlined the need for it and given it increasing credibility, showing that, yes, these were issues and we continue to see that with World Relief. And I'll tell you, Frank, I called them, I asked them about their statement of condemnation and I said, we now see that there was a legitimate call for further vetting of these refugees. And, and they said they stand behind the statement that they don't retract it and they stand behind their position that no further vetting should be done. Regarding those immigrants that were brought in from Afghanistan after our rushed pullout because of due process. Correct.
- [14:33]
A
First of all, these people are not U.S. citizens. They were brought here by our own grace. And are they trying to make some sort of constitutional argument about due process? Because that's a murky area right now. If we bring a refugee into a country, into our country, how would we be violating? First of all, do they have the same due process rights that American citizens have? That's one question. The second question is re interviewing them or doing background checks on them or trying to discover what they think now about jihad. How would that be a violation of due process? Have the World Relief people explained this, how this is a violation of due process?
- [15:22]
B
No, they haven't. You know, all they would do is point me, point npr, point these other organizations to statements. So they're not doing interviews, they're not explaining their condemnatory position. They're just saying, this is our statement. You can read our statement. And one of the things they claimed in this was, you know, that, that because these refugees had already been vetted and had already been put through this process, they're arguing that they're perfectly safe. They said, look, we know that these are safe people to have in the country because they've been vetted. Well, of course, the very next day.
- [15:57]
A
Come on, can we just say this wrong?
- [16:01]
B
Come on.
- [16:02]
A
I mean, I'm sorry, I just, it's, I don't even have words for this. It's so stupid.
- [16:09]
B
Well, and on top of that, you know, and this is in my report if people want to go read my report at the daily Wire. But I want to read a few statistics and realities that should come to bear on this statement that we don't need to further vet any of these refugees. So According to a 2022 Department of Homeland Security Inspector General report. Now this was a report released during the Biden administration under Alejandro Mayorkas. So this was not coming from the gop. This is coming from a Democratic administration. They found that, and I'm quoting from this report, that the chaos of the Afghanistan withdrawal left significant gaps in information. And Customs and Border Patrol often lacked significant data for the entries, such as name, date of birth, identification number, and travel document data. In just one sample of nearly 90,000 evacuee records, they found 417 lacked first names. Over 11,000 had January 1st birthdays. What are the odds of that? 7,800 had missing or invalid travel documents. So what we know is that no, these people weren't vetted properly. We have all kinds of. And look, it's a little ridiculous to claim that they were vetted properly because it's not like they keep good records in Afghanistan. So, so that's how we get all of these people in our country. We don't know their first name, we don't know their last name, we don't know where they were born, we don't know their birth date. So we have tons of people. We have, you know, thousands and thousands and thousands of people from terrorist nations coming into our country. And we don't have background information on them. We don't know where they're coming from or who they're affiliated with.
- [17:46]
A
By the way, so many people are confused about the immigration issue. We have to do a full show on it at some point. But I'm writing up a, a 10 point paper on it. And I'm just going to read you one point that I have here just so it's not, it's not covering the waterfront on this issue, but there's one point I want to make because people are confused about it. And the point I'm making here is. I'll just read it. It says the Bible distinguishes between legal and illegal immigrants. So God told the Israelites to care for sojourners. That's true. That's Deuteronomy 10:19. This doesn't mean, however, that we should open our borders or ignore our immigration laws. Old Testament professor James Hoffmeyer shows that these sojourners, and there's a Hebrew word for this, ger g e r in English, were people who had entered Israel legally, but a foreigner who had entered illegally did not have recognized standing as a resident alien. So he wasn't considered a sojourner, but simply a foreigner. It's a different Hebrew word. Nowhere does the Bible say that the illegal immigrant czar, Z a R in English, has a right to stay in a nation not their own. Every nation has the right and responsibility to deny immigrants outright or select only the ones who will not harm their citizens but be a benefit to their country. That's why we have nations and immigration laws to begin with. Innocent people must be protected, and not everyone can live in the same place.
- [19:16]
B
Yep.
- [19:17]
A
All right, there's more on that coming, ladies and gentlemen. But there's so much confusion on this, Megan. It was God himself who set up borders and said that he appointed people to live at certain times and places. And governments are set up to protect innocent people from evil. Every individual government is responsible to their own people to protect them from evil. And if we allow people in our country, unvetted, who are likely or at least have a higher probability to have a jihadist mentality, we're not doing our job as a government to protect our own citizens from evil.
- [19:51]
B
Yeah, absolutely. That's exactly right. And Frank, I'm glad you're doing this because there is so much needed information for Christians on what the Bible says about immigration, what our responsibility is as both Christians and American citizens. I can tell you, you know, just yesterday you started seeing the signs out in front of the progressive churches saying that Jesus was a refugee and. And, you know, would he find room at the inn in the United States. So these are the kind of ideas that have to be combated with scriptural wisdom. But the issue is you do have these extremely well funded organizations like World Relief out there deliberately muddying the water about what scripture requires from Christians when it comes to this issue of immigration.
- [20:35]
A
Now, we don't know, to be fair, we don't know their motivation here. All we're saying is where there's smoke, there's normally fire. And if they're getting millions of dollars of taxpayer money into their coffers that they didn't get prior, it may cause them to change their theology in order to keep that money flowing. Ladies and gentlemen, as you know, we've talked about this program several times. Sex, money, and power are the big three temptations we all have to deal with. We might re. Re. Interpret certain passages in light of our desire for sex, money, or power to our detriment and to the detriment of the nation. So we have to be very wary of that.
- [21:19]
B
Yeah. So just to kind of put a pin in that. Yeah, The. The year that World Relief settled Ramanula Lock and Wall in Bellingham, Washington, they received $56 million from the federal government. So. So that's a lot of money and a lot of persuasion to sort of shape your thinking, I would say.
- [21:38]
A
Absolutely. So we're going to put that article that Megan wrote in the show notes. Megan, you have another article that came out recently that we got to look at. And this is going to really annoy people. But that's what we do here. We annoy people. All right, for good. Because we want them to know the truth. And this one, you yourself said that this title might be a little over the top. You didn't make the title, but the contents is spot on. The title of the article is the Fight to Make a Christian College Christian Again. And here's the subtitle. Charlie Kirk warned that Biola University was slipping as a Christian college. Biola professors say he was right. All right, unpack this one for us. And again, we'll put it in the show notes. This article comes from a little over a month ago, November 11, but it'll be in the show notes. Tell us, Megan, what's going on at Biola?
- [22:29]
B
Yeah, you know, this was another issue that I just kind of briefly touched on in the book, because, to be honest with you, to cover the compromise at Christian colleges would have been so immense and overwhelming, it almost would take a book series of itself. So I really just kind of briefly touched on a few specific issues in Shepherds for Sale. But, you know, the continued reporting from really faithful, wise, discerning Christians who are associated with Biola and who have been tracking this have showed how necessary it is. So I will say that I came to this story late. So Alyssa Childers, who I know is a good friend of yours, and Krista Bontrager at the center for Biblical Unity, they had already been talking about these issues. I was kind of like everyone else, watching and reading their materials as they were detailing how Biola had, for example, instituted a DEI department at one point, how they were welcoming lecturers who were teaching critical race theory. Elisa, in particular, pointed to their former statement on human sexuality that seemed to leave room for things like transgender bathroom facilities and things like that. They have since updated that. But as that criticism was coming in and as that debate and conversation was roiling, a source reached out to me and said, hey, there's another element of this Biola story that people are not aware of. And what it was was that the head of Their counseling department had declared herself an LGBTQ ally on the mentalhealth.com website. So, you know, obviously that flies in the face of Biola's statement of faith. And not only did the head of the Rosemead Counseling center say that, she also signed an amicus brief opposing Colorado's ban, or, excuse me, supporting Colorado's ban on so called conversion therapy. So the way that Colorado defines conversion therapy would really mean a Christian therapist doing anything to suggest that you can stop your lgbtq, your gay, your transgender identities and behavior. So if you took any steps to say you can stop pursuing this kind of activity, you can, you. You can even pray with a client to say, lord, help me, lessen these desires. Any of that would be covered by this Colorado conversion therapy ban. So Alliance Defending Freedom is bringing a case against that Colorado ban. It's going up to the Supreme Court. So the head of Biola's counseling department is supporting the ban on a Christian counselor being able to consult with a client about how Scripture might teach, how we can lessen these desires, how we can flee from temptation. And so that was what I revealed in my reporting. So this was another piece of the puzzle of what has been going on at Biola. And, you know, some of the other things I covered that were, you know, were lesser revelations in the article, but still important was like the fact that just this past September, they had a speaker on the subject of quote, unquote, guilty whites. And he was talking about how in chapel. So this was, you know, within the chapel setting, talking about how not. Yeah, maybe it's true that all the white people in the antebellum era didn't own slaves, but that's only because they couldn't afford it. It's like luxury cars today. They probably all wanted to own slaves. So it was a fairly shocking sermon. Message kind of wrapped at this chapel. And so that was something else that has been covered. So as this has been going on, Biola has pushed back. And I think what's important to note here is no one's saying that there are no sound teachers at Biola and that there isn't good, strong, biblical based teaching going on at Biola. We know that there are. We have friends there. We have teachers that I value and trust, people like Sean McDowell and Thaddeus Williams and Fred Sanders, and I appreciate their work. But the fact that there are sound teachers at the school doesn't negate the fact that these other issues were going on. Now, Biola hasn't denied these issues, but what they have Kind of done is come out and do a couple of podcasts where they're suggesting that, you know, in one of them they kind of implied, well, this is like gossip, except it's not gossip, it's true. It's this got hard records. Krista, Elisa and I all brought forward, you know, hard documentation that these things are going on. And so that has been the ongoing debate. And I think it's important because it's not just Biola. And I think that's the thing we all need to realize is that Biola is sort of emblematic of the fight and the struggle and the debate going on at so many Christian colleges. And that was what Charlie was talking about. And I think Charlie brought up Biola one, probably because it's a very large school, it's close to him, but also he was aware that this has been a very faithful Christian school. And you sound the alarm in order to keep your Christian institutions Christian.
- [27:43]
A
Absolutely. And you have. This is a very thorough article that again, we'll put in the show notes. You have that quote that you just mentioned from that so called rapper who came in and talked about the people problem of whiteness. You also point out that when it comes to the LGBTQ issue, that it seems that there may be folks at Biola who are siding more with, say, the Preston Sprinkle model.
- [28:11]
B
Yes.
- [28:12]
A
Which essentially says, oh, you can have all of these different identities, as long as you don't act on them, everything's fine. It's called side B theology. Rather than the folks that say, no, you need to agree with scripture and work toward sanctification. Repenting of sin, repenting of any behavior. You need to stay away from these kinds of thoughts and behaviors to the best of your ability. Rather than kind of wink, wink, nudged at it like, oh, you can say you're gay, but you just can't act on it.
- [28:50]
B
Yeah, we don't identify with our sin. And I won't go into a side B revoice rant here, but these aren't just labels that we're fighting about. If you look into some of the material that is published at Preston Sprinkle's website and what he advocates for, I mean, it gets into some very, like, bizarre practices like spiritual friendships. So that's part of what side B advocates. And that's like two people of the same sex pledging themselves to one another in a lifelong relationship. That's not marriage, but it's some kind of relationship. And it endorses same sex cuddling, hand holding. So, I mean, really kind of bizarre practices that are very far from scriptural.
- [29:34]
A
And very further down the road of temptation to the point that you'll.
- [29:41]
B
I always think it sounds kind of cruel. I'm like, why do you want to encourage people to put themselves in the position where they're going to be tormented by these feelings?
- [29:48]
A
Yeah, let's go right up to the cliff and see how close we can get. I like what Ali Bestuckey said at that. At the jubilee event. I don't know if you saw any of that when she had all those progressive Christians around her. She said, you shouldn't be reading the Bible to see what can you get away with. Right, right. You should be reading the Bible to see what does the Lord want me to do and how can I best do it. But so often people are trying to find loopholes. They're trying to find ways that they can skate around what the Bible clearly says. I mean, Paul says, flee sexual immorality. He doesn't say cuddle with it. Right.
- [30:24]
B
That needs to be a bumper sticker or something.
- [30:28]
A
Flee it. No, cuddle with it. That's what they're saying. Let's cuddle. This is. This is silly and silly. It's not. It's. It's very tragic because it's gonna lead people perhaps to a Christless eternity.
- [30:44]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [30:45]
A
So this is serious stuff here. Sorry, go ahead.
- [30:47]
B
And that was what was. You know, I appreciated the response to the degree that they offered a response from Viola in these two different podcasts. But, you know, one of the things that did bother me a bit Frank in the subsequent response from Sean McDowell and President Barry Corey was that there's a line in my story that I quoted a faculty member. So, you know, the. The emphasis I need to put here is that I didn't just give you my opinion in this story. It's not my opinion at all. I went and spoke to a number of Biola students, alum, and faculty, and this is what they were telling me. So I'm just here to tell you, you know, here's what's being said on the ground. Here's what I'm hearing from some faculty, current faculty members, who I granted anonymity because they're not tenured, so to protect their employment, you know, one of them told me, look, there are still. There's still really good programs at Biola. There's still strong biblical teaching, but you need to approach it carefully. And what he said was, you need to approach it like, if you're a parent, you wouldn't Just send your kid to Berkeley and assume, you know, that they're going to reinforce the ideologies and the worldview that you've taught your kids. You would never do that. And he said, by the same token, you can't assume anymore that Biola is going do that either. Which is not to say there's not good programs, but you need to approach it cautiously. You need to vet the teachers, you need to vet the programs. And they, they took a lot of issue with that in their. In their podcast interview. You know, all. All of them kind of went, we don't believe that any faculty member, any current. They. They assume that it must be some disgruntled former employee. And that is absolutely not the case. The faculty member that I spoke to loves Biola. He's a current faculty member, and that is what he told me. I have a transcript of that interview. I'm happy to share it with biola, obviously redacting any identifying information. But they can see that this was a real concern of one of their real faculty members. So what I would do is encourage them rather than dismiss it. Maybe hear that out and ask yourselves, what do we need to do to ensure that our faculty members don't feel like they have to give parents and students this warning that you need to be very discerning about, you know, which programs and professors and courses you choose at biola?
- [33:09]
A
In fact, you write in the article a quote from our friend Everett Piper. Everett Piper was a for many years in the faculty and administration of Christian schools. In fact, for a while, he was the president of Oklahoma Wesleyan University. And here's what he says in the article. You actually quote him from the Washington Times. Everett said, I never thought I'd say this. After he spent more than four decades as president, vice president, and dean of various colleges. He says, but until the Christian Academy repents, you're better off sending your kids to a school run by pagans. At least the predatory professors there don't disguise themselves as your child's counselor, pastor, or priest, unquote. That's pretty radical there, Megan, comment on that?
- [33:55]
B
Yeah, I think that's a really good point, and it's part of the reason. I understand that Biola and its administration is feeling defensive right now, but it's actually one of the reasons why it's so important to maintain that discernment. Because if a student knows that they're going to a secular university and they know that they have an atheist professor or a professor who's antagonistic to Christianity in some way, they're going to budget for that. When they hear the teaching and, you know, when they get into the curriculum, if they're at a Christian school, they're not going to budget for that. They may just hear the teaching and accept it as doctrinally sound. And that's where it gets dangerous. And I think that's something that Elisa wrote about so eloquently. You know, if it was a non believer throwing fiery darts at her faith, it probably would not have had the impact that someone coming to her in the role of a pastor or a theologian did. And so that, I think, is the danger. And, you know, it's tough because you don't like being the bad guy. You know, I don't like it. I don't think probably Krista or Lisa like it either. But you sit back and go, listen, we're trying to help. In fact, if you would look at it this way, as the administration, I am hoping that this kind of reporting arms you to make reforms so that you can continue to be the faithful institution that you have been in the past. So this isn't about destruction, this is about restoration.
- [35:23]
A
Yes. And as the proverb says, it's better to have wounds from a friend than kisses from an enemy.
- [35:28]
B
Yes. Amen.
- [35:29]
A
And so many of the policies that some of these Christian schools have, which are leaning DEI or leaning pro lgbtq, these policies are meant to get kisses from the enemy. And people like you and others are stepping up and saying, no, here are wounds from a friend. I want to protect you. By the way, this even goes to the whole so called Israel debate. Friends, when we say bless Israel, we don't mean that you approve of everything Israel does. If you want to bless anybody, you tell them the truth. When they're wrong, you tell them the truth. You correct them. You don't say, everything you do is great. That's not a blessing. That's enabling people to go down the wrong road. So you bless people. You love people, not by approving everything they do, but by correcting them when they go wrong and of course, approving them when they do right. And you're not saying that Biola is totally lost at this point, but you are raising an alarm that these people who are at Biola ought to take seriously. They have made a few positive changes you mentioned in the article, but are there places they haven't that you're going, hey, why don't you guys fix this?
- [36:41]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Sorry, do we want to pause for the dog?
- [36:45]
A
No, no, go. Dogs are fine. That's an alarm. Right there, that is my alarm.
- [36:51]
B
I have that dog in place specifically to act as my alarm.
- [36:56]
A
That's right.
- [36:57]
B
So these are the kind of, you know, the methods that you take, that you go, I want to have someone that when they see something concerning. Concerning, they make some noise. And, you know, one of the things I. I had a really interesting conversation with an apologist and professor, and I won't name him because I haven't asked permission, but he talked a little bit about why these colleges go in this direction. And he said part of the problem is you get boards that are almost entirely populated with people who either have a lot of money to donate, so they're not being chosen because of their discernment or their wisdom, but because they're able to donate a lot of money to the organization. So if you get someone who's wealthy and progressive, that's a really easy way just to come in and start to steer the organization in a different direction, because, you know, they have that money to use as leverage, or they're someone who is coming out of corporate America, maybe Fortune 500America. And on the one hand, it's impressive. You know, it's an impressive resume. You have been the CEO of some major company. But the problem is, if you've been marinating in corporate culture for a long time, you've learned to make those compromises and to make those capitulations. You've learned maybe you didn't want it, but you're learning. Like, we got to have a DEI department to ensure that we're not dealing with lawsuits or, you know, to help keep the federal government during the Biden administration off our backs. So they start to do those things. And after a while, I don't think they realize that they have moved to the degree that they have. And because this is just the water that they're swimming in, and they didn't notice how many capitulations or compromises they made over time. And this guy, I don't know if I like this term, but he used the term a sniffer. He said, you need a sniffer on your board who is somebody to sort of sniff out wonky ideology or compromise, and who will be willing to be the person to bark at the bad guys when they're coming up to your door.
- [38:47]
A
How much of this could be driven, too, Megan, by the same money motive that could be driving World Relief, and that is government money. How much government money does Biola get, and are there strings attached to that money either from the state of California or the federal Government. Do you have to have certain doctrines in place or. Or certain policies in place in order to keep that money flowing?
- [39:18]
B
Yeah, you know, I won't speak to Biola specifically because I have not looked into, you know, where their revenues and funding are coming from. But, yes, that does absolutely happen. You do have large donors. You have large secular left organizations that will give money to these colleges and institutions. And they. I mean, we saw this at Baylor, right? We saw a secular left institution that was going to give Baylor this huge grant. And by the way, this. This was just one that became public. But that same organization, whose name is escaping me right now, had been giving money to Baylor for years and years. This time they just got caught. And it was clearly a grant that was meant to research the LGBTQIA community in such a way as to move Baylor in an affirming direction. So it was very obvious that that was the purpose of the grant, that that was the standpoint of the organization making the grant. It was, you know, and this particular time, Baylor gave the grant back, but they had accepted, you know, tens of millions, I think, from this organization in the past. And if you go and look at their School of Social Work, which is the department that was receiving all of this money, you will certainly see the impact of that funding. The School of Social Work at Baylor. Their curriculum, their recommended reading, their lecturers, almost everything you find on that website, on that page and within that department is now LGBTQ affirming, though officially, Baylor will say that they're not.
- [40:42]
A
Watch where the money's coming from, friends. You know, about a month before Charlie was murdered, he was getting some heat from one of his donors about an issue that this donor wanted Charlie to. Wanted Charlie to change his position. And Charlie was right about this position. The donor was not. And the donor essentially said to him, look, if you don't change, I'm pulling my million dollar a year donation. And Charlie was so mad, he said, I'm not doing it. I said, I remember we were getting off an elevator. I said, charlie, this is one reason I love you. You're never gonna bend for money. You're not gonna sell out for money. And he couldn't be bought. And Erica can't be bought either. There are people that are upset with her. Okay, give your money elsewhere. Let me say the same thing about our organization. We're at the end of the year, we have a $300,000 matching gift. Ladies and gentlemen, if you don't like some of the things I'm saying, okay, fine, you can give your Money elsewhere. But what we do, as you know, is we go to college campuses and we present evidence that Christianity is true. We answer a lot of questions. If you'd like to help us with that, since our security costs have now created a situation where we have to pay $15,000 to every campus for every campus we go to because we don't charge students a dime. If you want to help with that, please go to crossexamine.org, click on donate. 100% of your donations go to ministry. 0% to buildings. We're completely virtual. We don't have any buildings. We come to you, you don't come to us. So if you can help us at the end of the year, that would be great. Again, we've got 15 colleges scheduled for the spring. Security costs have, as I say, driven this to $15,000 a campus. So we need your help. Thanks for your help thus far. But Megan. Yeah. Money, we all have to check ourselves because, you know, are we doing this just for money? Are we doing this? Are we going to change our theology for money? Are we going to change our theology for sex? Are we going to change our theology for power or for clicks? All very tempting. We've got it. That's why you're supposed to have a board, by the way. You'll have a board that's going to say, no, sorry, not doing that. Right. I want to ask you about another issue that's related to this and that is you've uncovered that several Christian so called Christian schools have denied TPUSA student groups on campus. Can you tell us a little bit about that? And why have these so called Christian schools said, no, you can't have a club here?
- [43:33]
B
Yeah. I actually started picking up this story while I was working on the other story about Biola because, you know, it was so interesting to me that who knew how Charlie knew all the things that he knew, like how did he know before everyone else to raise the alarm about what was going on at Biola? I don't know. But he obviously had some inside information and it turned out he was proved right. And so that was actually when I started hearing from some students at Biola who told me, well, back in 2023, we applied for a TPUSA chapter and they denied us then. And one of the reasons they denied them was because of a professor watch list. So tpusa and I actually think this is a great project. I see no problem with it. Probably very valuable. They started a watch list of professors who could be credibly proved to discriminate against Christian and or conservative students. So I think that's a useful public interest project. But Biola objected to that. So the student said, okay, we won't use that professor watch list. Then we just, we won't participate in it, we won't use it. Then can we have our TPUSA club? And they said, no, you can't have that. And you know, Biola said no. Biola said no, that's correct. So they're reapplying now. So after Charlie's death, this same student went forward and she's reapplying to try to get a chapter again. And that was one of the questions I asked Biola, well, what is the status of this TPUSA club? And they, the student told me that they've been dragging it out since September when she applied and that normally that she feels that she should have gotten the approval by now and that other more progressive, politically progressive clubs have been approved. And so, you know, that was her complaint. But that was sort of my first like, well, that's funny. Why would a Christian school object to a conservative organization like TPUSA having a student chapter when we have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of secular schools that are happy to welcome tpusa? Why is that? And so then when I looked into it, I found about 20 religious schools that are denying TPUSA. And I have to look at my list, it included some schools that would surprise you, like Asbury was one, Bob Jones was another. And some of them have said that they don't want to have political clubs, but. Or Point Loma Nazarene, that was another interesting one where they said we don't want to have political corporations clubs. And yet they have had no Kings rallies, they have had Black Lives Matter related clubs. So when they say they don't want political clubs, that's not true. So what they're arguing as well, we have these race based clubs, you know, racial identity affiliation clubs, but those aren't political like TPUSA is political. Obviously I, I would completely disagree with that. Those are political clubs. So they're applying a double standard here. And where they're allowing the social justice woke clubs, but they're not allowing tpusa.
- [46:33]
A
Not only that, but it presupposes that Christians ought not be involved in politics.
- [46:37]
B
Right?
- [46:38]
A
Like why is that? Are only atheists qualified to run the country? Where do they come up with this nonsense? I mean, it's ridiculous. Everybody should be involved in politics. If you care about your country and you care about your neighbor and you Care about religious freedom and your ability to preach and live the gospel. Everybody ought to be involved. Why are they suggesting that? A big part of life as a human being here on earth, politics. Why. Why are people suggesting we ought not be involved? So the, especially for an educational institution.
- [47:10]
B
That's what I was going to say. Like that's the perfect time to have these clubs and these students have the time and the energy to get involved and see how their faith connects to the policies that they support.
- [47:21]
A
Also, can I ask you, has anyone answered this question? Why would any of these schools object to a professor watch list of a professor discriminating against any student, conservative or liberal? Why would they object to that? Wouldn't they want to know if a professor was discriminating against the student unjustly? I mean, we just had that story. The effect was on Fox News headline, a story about the Oklahoma University professor that apparently gave his student a zero. Or maybe it was a female professor, I don't know, a zero student.
- [48:07]
B
I think it was a trans identifying professor.
- [48:09]
A
A trans identifying.
- [48:11]
B
That's where your confusion is coming from.
- [48:12]
A
Okay. Yeah. Who knows? Okay. It was a day, I don't know. But they, they gave the student a zero for trying to make the case a, a pro Christian case of some kind. That's just. Why wouldn't people want to know that? Why wouldn't the administration want to know that?
- [48:31]
B
Exactly. And I, I think that that illustrates the need for the program. So, you know, to me, it actually would be a lot more educational to go ahead and bring these TPUSA chapters onto campus and, and let your students get involved and let them find out. Look, you know, these are some of the issues you may have to navigate because it's not just in higher education. You may be on the job and suddenly find out that, you know, your HR department doesn't like the views that you hold as a Christian and suddenly you're gonna be navigating. Okay, legally, professionally, how do I deal with that? What are the options for how I can respond here, both biblically and legally? And, and so I actually think it'd be a great educational opportunity. But yeah, for that reason, that was one of the reasons that a number of these schools cited for why they don't want to welcome TPUSA chapters onto campus. And in terms of getting deeper answers, I'll tell you, Frank, they don't typically like to talk about these things. So when you're a reporter like me and you ask them this question, first of all, it's very difficult to get Someone on the phone, usually what they are willing to do is correspond a little bit to via email so that they can carefully craft with their PR team exactly how they're going to respond to you. So it's not like you're having extemporaneous conversations where they're being really transparent with you. That doesn't happen. And so when I asked Biola about it, for example, I got a one line response point. Loma Nazarene pointed me to a statement. So neither of them are being very forthcoming and they don't give you the opportunity to ask those follow up questions. So I don't know.
- [50:05]
A
And has anything in your knowledge happened in recent weeks to move these TPUSA clubs forward on these Christian schools or I think has Charlie's murder done anything to facilitate these clubs being on campus or people are still giving the stiff arm?
- [50:25]
B
I mean, the, the Christian colleges that I was covering are largely still giving them the stiff arm. Biola says they told me that, you know, they don't agree with this student who's petitioning for the chapter with her version of events. They say it is going through the normal process, but it is worth noting that they rejected TPUSA only three years ago. So if they were to allow the chapter this time, they would be reversing their position, you know, from a previous decision. And I suspect this is just my opinion, but I suspect that the reason they're entertaining the chapter again is because of Charlie's death. I think probably if he had not been assassinated, they wouldn't be revisiting the question at all.
- [51:08]
A
I don't know all the details surrounding this, but as I understand it, if you're a publicly funded school, like even UCAL Berserkley, where we were last month, unless they have a really good reason, they can't say no to a Christian club on the conservative side, if they're going to say yes to a similar club on the liberal side, they're getting state money. But a private institution like say Vanderbilt, they can say no. And many of these schools we're talking about are private as well. So in case you're wondering, like you said earlier, there's a lot of secular schools that have said okay to TPUSA clubs, but they may have had no other choice if they're getting state money. But these government or, sorry, these Christian schools, they may have more leeway to say no. And the mystery is, why would you say no to a club that is known for supporting Christians and supporting Christians politically who support conservative biblical positions, unless you Were somehow as an administration against those conservative biblical positions. And if you are against those conservative biblical positions, why are you calling yourself a Christian university?
- [52:23]
B
Yeah, I mean, those are good questions. And you know, another thing that the Biola student said she was told, this was not told to me, but was that they. They were okay with having a conservative club. So I think they do have some sort of, you know, Biola conservatives or something like that. There is a club like that. Their issue was tpusa. And she told me that, you know, part of it was that they, they didn't like Charlie's rhetoric, but didn't cite specifically what they didn't like.
- [52:50]
A
Of course they didn't.
- [52:51]
B
Right, yeah.
- [52:51]
A
Because as soon as you looked at the context of those quotes, it would blow their. Their story out of the water. You know, he's a racist. No, no, you haven't read the whole context of what he was saying. He wasn't saying that the Civil Rights act didn't bring some good. What he was saying was it made race such a central part of what we do. It's led to all these unintended consequences where we're now still divided over race. It didn't solve the problem. You know, he wasn't saying that it was okay to discriminate against black people. That wasn't what he was saying. He was saying that the solution that they put forth has created so many of these other intent, unintended consequences like DEI and affirmative action and all these things that it's. It's created trouble. And he's right.
- [53:38]
B
Right, absolutely. And I. I think, you know, probably sometimes what you will get from these Christian college administrations is they just feel like it's easier to say no.
- [53:48]
A
Yeah, of course.
- [53:49]
B
Than to deal with the hassle. I mean, you have to remember at Point Loma Nazarene, they not only denied the TPUSA chapter, they took down a memorial for Charlie Kirk. So the students put up a memorial for him and they took that down. And yet they would allow no Kings protests. So I think that obviously tells you which direction that institution is going.
- [54:07]
A
Well, that was Jesus philosophy. If it's too hard, just say no. You know, don't do your thing. You want me to go to the cross? That's too hard now. Forget it. No, come on. I. I got. I got to deal with my best life now. Please, if it's too hard, count me out. Does anybody. Is there going to be any persecution? Anybody upset? No, no, no, no. I gotta. Please, everybody, please.
- [54:32]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [54:34]
A
You know, take up my cross. What Are you kidding me? I gotta take up my latte.
- [54:41]
B
You're always good for a one liner, Frank. I'm always leaving. I'm gonna steal that.
- [54:46]
A
Why. Why are you calling yourself a Christian university if you're not following Jesus?
- [54:54]
B
I mean, what's the point? That is a good question. And that. That I think gets at the issue that we as the church, we as the American church, we do actually have a responsibility to contend for the faith, in part through contending for our institutions and our organizations. So, you know, I know that comes full circle, but I get that it feels uncomfortable for some of these organizations to come under the spotlight. It's uncomfortable for me too. As you said, when some. And it has happened, sometimes those faithful wounds come from my friendly husband. And I don't like it sometimes in the moment, but they're necessary. And eventually you realize, you know what I mean? Grateful that you have said this thing to preserve my character or to preserve my reputation or my spiritual practices. And I would hope that these institutions, if they are faithful, that they would welcome that pushback and say, you know what? This gave us an opportunity to address a situation that maybe we didn't realize how bad it had gotten. Maybe we did not realize how out of control things had gotten in the Rosemead Counseling center, that the head of it was declaring herself to be an LGBTQ ally and opposing the kind of therapy that will allow Christians to escape the sin of homosexual or transgender attractions and identities.
- [56:13]
A
By the way, Joseph Nicolosi, I think, has a whole center. His father was a psychiatrist. I think he is as well. And he talks about, first of all, the so called conversion therapy is the wrong term. It's really trauma therapy, that the goal is to deal with trauma in somebody's past, and that often solves the unwanted sexual attractions that people have. It's really a trauma issue. But the whole idea that if you want to change your behavior, you can't do it because the government said you can't do it. That's not an American viewpoint. That it's not a natural law viewpoint. It's not a biblical viewpoint. The biblical viewpoint is, no, you're supposed to change your behavior through the help of the Holy Spirit. You're supposed to be sanctified, and it's.
- [56:58]
B
A First Amendment violation. And that's why Alliance Defending Freedom is taking it up and taking it all the way to Supreme Court. And, you know, I don't want to play Nostradamus here, but I predict that they'll win. This seems like a fairly Slam dunk. Freedom of religion and free speech case. So I look forward to seeing Alliance Defending Freedom win this case. And I do think that Biola should have to ask some hard questions about how did we get someone in a position of leadership, in a really important position of leadership leading our counseling center? So that is where students who are experiencing these attractions, that is where students who have confusion over these issues, that's where they're likely to go. And so you have to ask, what were they getting during this period that this woman has been leading the center? And, I mean, one thing I can report is that after my story came out, she resigned. So that is one more positive point that we can say, look, that's why it was worth bringing these issues up.
- [57:52]
A
Sure.
- [57:53]
B
Because now she has resigned and she's no longer leading the counseling department at Biola.
- [57:57]
A
We're just going to have to counsel the person that hired the counseling center person, I guess. I don't know. I mean. We interrupt this program to bring you an update. Just after we recorded this podcast with Megan Basham, Biola University actually accepted TP USA as an authorized club on campus. So that's some good news out of Biola we wanted to make you aware of. In fact, we'll put in the show notes the story that describes what happened. So the good news is Biola has accepted the TPUSA club on campus. We want to make sure that other campuses follow suit. There is no reason a TPUSA group shouldn't be on a campus, especially a Christian campus. By the way, this weekend I'm going to America Fest in Phoenix with TP usa and next week, I'll give you a report on that. So make sure you tune in for next week's midweek podcast for a on the ground report from America Fest. All right, let's rejoin our interview with the great Megan Basham. Well, Megan, you always do great work. Where can people follow you? Where do they go to follow you? And I know you're on Daily Wire, but give us your Twitter handle, all that kind of stuff.
- [59:22]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So you can get my book, Shepherds for Sale. That goes into a lot of background on this. Yes. So if you want some details about the schools, the institutions, immigration, climate change, I cover all of that. Lgbtq, you can get that anywhere books are sold. Amazon, Walmart, Target, Christian bookstores. And you. I spend way too much time on X. So you can find me ranting there at Meg Basham and on Instagram at journalist Megan Basham. And yeah, as you said, Frank, on. On Daily Wire.
- [59:55]
A
Great stuff. Keep it up. What are you working on right now? Can you tell us or is it top secret?
- [59:59]
B
Do you know? I'm working on a novel?
- [60:01]
A
You are?
- [60:02]
B
I have a novel idea on April 15, so I got to get it.
- [60:06]
A
What's it called?
- [60:06]
B
The Vesalius Club.
- [60:08]
A
Oh, what's it? Can you tell us?
- [60:10]
B
Andreas Vesalius was an anatomist in the, I think, 15th century. So my book is about. It's a historical thriller set in the 18th century, about a young woman who is running around with a crew of Vesalius admirers, hence the name, digging up bodies. And suddenly she realizes that there's murder afoot and so she has to solve this string of murders of pregnant prostitutes. It's a very dark book.
- [60:40]
A
Okay, Meg.
- [60:41]
B
All right, look for it next year. Yeah, so it's.
- [60:45]
A
It's due to PG 13 at least.
- [60:46]
B
It. It's. Yes. I mean, you know, obviously, you know, within the bounds of. Of Christian license, but, you know, there's sin in the world, there's darkness in the world, and hopefully this book explores that darkness to set off the light.
- [60:59]
A
All right, well, maybe in April we'll revisit that, let everyone know about it. All right. Hey, thanks for being with us, Megan.
- [61:06]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me, Frank. And I'm glad you're doing well. I've been praying for you guys so much.
- [61:10]
A
Thank you so much. Keep praying for Erica too. She really needs it. All these crazy attacks I know.
- [61:16]
B
That I especially pray for.
- [61:19]
A
Hey, we're gonna have a lot more in the show notes too, ladies and gentlemen. So everything we talked about that we can put in the show notes, we will. So check out Megan's articles, check out her Twitter feed, check out what she does, a daily wire. And also don't forget about our matching gift here at the end of the year. $300,000 matching gift. Go to crossexamine.org click on donate. Thanks so much for being with us. God bless. We'll see you here next time.