352 The Kids Who Can’t Be Told What to Do: PDA & Low-Demand Parenting (with Casey Ehrlich)

Summary

Podcast Summary: I Have ADHD Podcast – Episode 352

"The Kids Who Can’t Be Told What to Do: PDA & Low-Demand Parenting"

Host: Kristen Carder
Guest: Casey Ehrlich, PhD
Date: November 18, 2025

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Episode Overview

This highly anticipated episode focuses on Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA) in children, a topic frequently requested by listeners. Kristen Carder and leading PDA researcher Casey Ehrlich, PhD, explore what exactly PDA is, how it presents in kids (distinct from other neurotypes like ADHD or autism), and actionable ways families can support children with PDA—especially through “low-demand” or accommodating parenting. The conversation blends scientific explanation, Casey's powerful personal stories, and practical tips for parents.

Note: This summary skips all ads and promotional segments.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is PDA?

• Definition & Core Mechanism ([04:18])

  • PDA is a nervous system-driven, survival response to perceived loss of autonomy and equality.
  • Unlike typical fight/flight/freeze responses to physical threats, the trigger for PDA is the perception that another person or situation is controlling or dominating the individual.
  • This threat response is often subconscious, especially in children.

  “What makes PDA unique and distinct...is that what tells the amygdala ‘you're in danger’ is often a subconscious perception of losses of autonomy, or if someone else is above that person.”
  — Casey Ehrlich ([04:33])

• Operational Definition ([14:02])

  • “PDA is a survival drive for autonomy and equality that consistently overrides other survival instincts like eating, sleeping, hygiene, safety and/or toileting.”

  — Casey Ehrlich ([14:02])

2. How PDA Presents in Children

• Everyday Scenarios ([07:46], [15:40])

  • Extreme avoidance of demands—even pleasurable ones—if the child doesn’t feel autonomy.
  • Better regulation and compliance when the child feels agency (e.g., quickly doing tasks when it’s their choice).
  • Need to feel “above” caregivers (e.g., climbing to high places, needing the last word, pushing to be first).
  • Burnout results when prolonged loss of autonomy accumulates, leading to severe functional decline (refusing to eat, speak, walk, etc.)

  “My son stopped eating and stopped speaking and he stopped walking.”
  — Casey Ehrlich ([15:40])

• Comparison with Traditional Parenting ([13:33])

  • Conventional strictness (timeouts, “knowing who's boss”) tends to escalate or entrench PDA-related issues.

  “I was never a gentle or attachment parent... That’s why we got to the violence.”
  — Casey Ehrlich ([13:33])

3. Distinguishing PDA from “Difficult” or “Oppositional” Kids

• Rooted in the Nervous System, Not Personality ([13:33], [38:04])

  • What looks like being “difficult” is actually a biological survival response to demands/threats, not manipulation or willful misbehavior.

  “With our PDA kids the threat response is what we’re interacting with—it’s not the child.”
  — Casey Ehrlich ([39:23])

• Burnout Signs ([19:19])

  • Functional regression: basic needs like eating, sleeping, toileting, hygiene are affected, often cyclically.
  • Extreme selectivity or regression even if the child seems “fine” elsewhere (school, with grandparents).
  • Unique to PDA: the drive for autonomy and equality overrides even basic physiological needs.

4. The Emotional Toll on Families

• Both Kristen and Casey share candid struggles with shame, resentment, grief, and guilt—believing at times they were “bad parents” or their children were purposefully difficult.
  • Powerful moment: Kristen tears up recalling how understanding PDA changed her relationship with her child ([26:44]).

5. PDA, Autism, and ADHD

• Diagnostic History & Overlaps ([29:17])
  • PDA was first described as related to autism, but many PDA kids/adults do not fit traditional ASD profiles.
  • Casey’s perspective: You can be ADHD and PDA without necessarily being autistic.

  “I think you can be ADHD and PDA. I don’t think you need to be autistic, but that’s not a popular opinion.”
  — Casey Ehrlich ([31:39])

6. Low-Demand Parenting & Accommodations

• Principles ([45:34], [47:36])

  • Start small: Limit demands that require compliance.
  • Wait for the child to initiate conversation.
  • Give autonomy over small choices (eating with hands, timing, how/when they do things).
  • Do (or help with) tasks that trigger resistance, even if they’re “age-appropriate.”
  • Allow and facilitate being “above” (let them climb, take the last word, physically be higher).

  “I just started cleaning his room every day... For him to enter into a clean space and not have a fight... changed so much.”
  — Kristen Carder ([48:43])

• No-Shoulds Approach ([22:29])

  • Casey advocates for giving parents their own autonomy; every child/family is different.
  • Let go of internalized pressure (“shoulds”) about the “right” way to parent.

• Viewing Meltdowns as Panic Attacks ([70:41])

  • During dysregulation, focus on regulation and repair, not teaching or discipline.
  • Radical acceptance: Meltdowns will happen during boundary setting; focus on co-regulation.
  • “There’s no strategy so your kid won’t have an activation... The work is radical acceptance.”

  — Casey Ehrlich ([64:55])

7. Strengths in PDA Kids

• When regulated, PDA children are often:
  • Charismatic, humorous, creative
  • Highly sensitive to “truth” and authenticity (“energetic truth radar”)
  • Connected to animals, strong sense of justice
  • Transformational thinkers

  “These kids are awesome...incredibly charismatic...very creative...social justice— even within their own families.”
  — Casey Ehrlich ([68:33])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the core of PDA:

  “PDA is a survival drive for autonomy and equality that consistently overrides other survival instincts...”
  — Casey Ehrlich ([14:02])

• On traditional parenting pitfalls:

  “I was never a gentle or attachment parent... That’s why we got to the violence.”
  — Casey Ehrlich ([13:33])

• On letting go of shame:

  "That's the part that I'm ashamed of...thinking that it was his fault...that he was doing it to me... I feel like he's trying to manipulate me. And he's six months old."
  — Kristen Carder ([17:26])

• On burnout and the toll of demands:

  "My son stopped eating and stopped speaking and he stopped walking."
  — Casey Ehrlich ([15:40])

• On shifting to low-demand parenting:

  “Every interaction is a choice to activate or accommodate. And it builds in the system... You can accommodate two out of three times and still make a huge amount of progress.”
  — Casey Ehrlich ([53:22])

• On a practical ‘parenting hack’:

  “Say yes as much as possible. Even in a no, find a yes.”
  — Kristen Carder ([76:00])

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Timestamps for Crucial Segments

• [04:18] - Defining PDA and the survival drive for autonomy
• [07:46] - Examples of loss of autonomy and "feeling above"
• [13:33] - Impact of strict/traditional parenting on PDA
• [14:02] - Working research definition of PDA
• [19:19] - Burnout: Signs and impact on basic needs
• [22:29] - Should parents focus on the PDA lens if symptoms are milder?
• [29:17] - Is PDA only under the autism umbrella?
• [38:04], [39:23] - Is PDA just a child being difficult?
• [45:34], [47:36] - How to start low-demand parenting; actionable tips
• [53:22] - Progress as a parent: accommodate most of the time, not perfectly
• [57:23] - No “middle ground”; interactions either activate or accommodate
• [59:34] - Three goals of PDA-appropriate parenting
• [70:41] - Step-by-step recommendations for families beginning to accommodate

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Actionable Takeaways

• Start with small, immediate, low-stress accommodations; prioritize relational safety over compliance training.
• View meltdowns as panic attacks/overload, not willful disobedience.
• When in doubt, increase child autonomy in small decisions (e.g., what to eat, when to shower, where to do homework, etc.).
• Lower the threshold for support: It’s okay to “do for” rather than insist they “do for themselves” during burnout.
• Seek moments to repair and connect, not correct, after emotional outbursts.
• Strengths-focus: Notice the positive, creative, and authentic qualities in your child when regulated.

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Closing Notes

This episode offers a compassionate and research-informed lens through which to view highly oppositional or demand-avoidant behaviors in children. Both host and guest model vulnerability, honesty, and hope. For families struggling with “difficult” kids, Casey and Kristen provide new tools, systemic empathy, and above all, permission to prioritize connection, collaboration, and self-compassion.

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Follow Dr. Casey Ehrlich at At Peace Parents on Instagram for more resources and upcoming conversations, including next week’s episode on PDA in adults.

Transcript

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[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Welcome to the I have ADHD podcast where it's all about education, encouragement and coaching for adults with adhd. I'm your host Kristen Carter and I have adhd. Let's chat about the frustrations, humor and challenges of adulting relationships, working and achieving with this neurodevelopmental disorder. I'll help you understand your unique brain, unlock your potential and move from point A to point B.

[Kristen Carter]

Hey, what's up? This is Kristen Carter and you've tuned in to the I have ADHD podcast. I am medicated, caffeinated, regulated and so ready to roll. I am bursting at the seams. Excited for our guest today. This topic is the most requested topic that I have had over and over and over in the last year. And we are talking today about pathological demand avoidance. What we're going to be talking this is going to be two episodes in a row. So like buckle up, get cozy, get ready. We're going to be talking about what does PDA look like in our kids and how can we help pathologically demand avoidant kids thrive. And then in the next episode, next week, we're going to talk about what does it look like in adults and am I pathologically demand avoidant? We're all going to find out together. I am so, so excited today. With me, I'm going to read her bio. Here is Casey Erlich, PhD. She is the leading researcher on PDA in the United States, a mother of two PDA children, and the founder and CEO of At Peace Parents, which you should all go follow on Instagram right this second. Following her account changed my life and changed the trajectory of my entire family. So I just oh, you gotta go follow right now. Casey has coached thousands of parents of PDA children and teens using empirical evidence, cutting edge science, and her own personal insights and empathy as a neurodivergent woman. And she is here with us today. Casey, welcome to the show.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Thank you so much.

[Kristen Carter]

You are so welcome. I am so glad that you're here. I'm like a fan girl, big time fan girl. I don't get excited about celebrities. I don't get excited about musicians. I get excited about nerds in the neurodivergent field.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

I really do.

[Kristen Carter]

I get so excited. I was saying to my husband last night, I have two interviews tomorrow. I'm so excited. I cannot wait. I cannot wait. I cannot wait. This is my Super Bowl. Thank you for being here. Of course.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

I'm super excited to be here.

[Kristen Carter]

Tell us a little bit about yourself. Who are you? Where are you from? What do you do? Yeah.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

So I am a reformed political scientist. I am a mother of two PDA children, 10 and 6. I live in Michigan, and that's my hometown. That's where my home state.

[Kristen Carter]

That's where you've been.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

I believe I am autistic and here for the conversation. Anything you want to know.

[Kristen Carter]

So awesome. Okay, so let's just start right off the bat. What is pathological demand avoidance? How would you describe it? What is pda? Because it is the kind of thing that's, like, bubbling up in. In the conversation, but it hasn't. There's not much out there on it. When I googled it a year and a half ago, because I was inquiring about my own family situation, I didn't find a whole lot. And so I'm curious. How would you describe it? What is pda?

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah, so why don't I explain how to think about it and then I can give a definite, like, an operationalized definition that can help parents separate it from other neurotypes.

[Kristen Carter]

Okay, love that.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Okay, so I first want to start with the fact that all of us as humans have a survival part of our brain. And we have an amygdala, which is the part that on a subconscious level is always detecting safety, danger, or life threat. And when the amygdala perceives threat, it will tell the nervous system to activate. Fight, flight, freeze, fawn, shut down. So all of us have this nervous system mechanism, regardless of neurotype. What makes PDA unique and distinct from other things that can activate the nervous system? Is that what tells the amygdala, hey, you're in danger or under life threat is the subconscious perception of losses of autonomy, or if someone else or something is above that person. And when we think about it with kids especially, they're constantly perceiving losses of autonomy and equality. Because the education, therapeutic, and parenting conventional wisdom is very much about, like, us being the authority, explicitly teaching Them and making sure they're compliant. So these kids, teens and adults, are constantly perceiving threat that they might not even be aware of. And they're hitting. It's accumulating in the system not just over a day or a week, but sometimes months and years. And then often we learn about it, pda when they hit what we call burnout, which is just when that accumulation is so far past their threshold that it's starting to disable them from accessing basic needs. And almost any interaction or stimulus is going to set them into a nervous system response.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

And there's a few other characteristics that I'm happy to speak to, but I'll pause there for now.

[Kristen Carter]

What is so wild to me is that it could be a subconscious. It's subconscious so often. Right? Yeah. And what you just said is that kids have so little autonomy.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

They have so little authority in their own lives, at least in the traditional way that we've kind of generation after generation parented kids. Like I was parented by boomers. It was a very like, children should be seen and not heard generation. And that is really tricky when it comes to having pathological demand avoidant tendencies. Yeah. So can you give some examples of what does it mean to not be equal or someone be above, like, for a kid, what does that look like? And a loss of autonomy. Can you give some, like, practical examples of that?

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Sure. So let me use a couple anecdotes to illustrate what this might look like. So my older PDA son, who's now almost 11, I was initially viewing him through the sensory processing disorder lens and some ADHD tendencies. And so I thought, like, his avoidance and dysregulation to like, getting his shoes on, putting his clothes on, getting in the car, buckling his seatbelt was like sensory, like, oh, this is super uncomfortable. He doesn't necessarily have the executive functioning to know where his shoes are. The tags are bothering him. That was the root cause I was thinking about. But then I noticed a pattern where it's like, if you're getting to choose where you're going, like, we're going to a trampoline park or we're going to, like, see a friend. The shoes come on, the tags don't matter, the seatbelt's buckled. And so it started to appear like, okay, this isn't just demand avoidance because of a sensory thing or executive functioning or him not understanding what I'm saying. It's because when he has a choice and he has autonomy, his nervous system stays regulated and he stays in his thinking brain. And so he can access those skills and do all the things that I thought were related to these other challenges in his brain wiring. Feeling above. So there's patterns that we see pretty frequently with these kids. So, you know, it might be. One very simple example is like sometimes we see these kids needing, like, they go on the top of cars, they climb on the edges of windows sills, they go on the tops of couches. They need to have the last word. They need to have a little bit more than their brother. They need to be first up the stairs and they'll physically like, push you out of the way. But it's. As a parent, you can observe. It's an automatic response. Like it's not conscious, right? And so, like, what we call an accommodation for PDA is like, can we facilitate this child feeling above me by me, like sitting below them on the floor while I'm trying to have a conversation so they stay in their thinking brain. So that's like a physical example of needing to be above, you know, I think my younger son William is 6, and right now he's in burnout. So he had a huge accumulation of all of these neuroceptive threats in his system. And now we're working to get him out of burnout. And so he does what I call equalizing, which is like needing to feel above to get back to safety. So, like, if you listen to him, so he's in Minecraft all day because we're unschooling and he says under his breath constantly, idiot, stupid. And he's like saying things to the Minecraft characters. And also, like, the thing that's therapeutic for him is that my husband will play collaboratively in Minecraft on the server. And he just like explodes and kills my husband over and over and over again. And it's like, annoying. And my older son used to do it, like, physically to me of like controlling my line of vision when we're watching a show, or like calling me stupid or physically lashing out. My younger son has a different expression of that, but it's this need to feel above to get back to safety. And when you think about it, like, if we're. I don't want to go too dorky.

[Kristen Carter]

Here, but go on, go full nerd.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Okay? Full nerding. You know about trauma and nervous systems, right? And so one of the things we know from polyvagal theory is that mammals, unlike reptiles, like lizards, have the ability to socially. They have a secondary vagal pathway that can down regulate the immediate fight, flight, or freeze. Responses through social signals of safety. Right. Like we're providing to each other right now of like, you're safe, like magical. So for PDA kids, especially in burnout, it's like they're not getting the mammalian signals, they're just in their reptilian brain. And so what are the mechanisms that a lizard has to stay safe? It's to flee, it's to freeze, or it's to be the bigger lizard. So that's kind of how I think about it. Of like, let this kid be the bigger lizard.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes. How do you know? Like somebody listening could be like, it would be valid to be like, her son just sounds like a jerk.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

Like your son just sounds like he needs to know who's boss.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Absolutely.

[Kristen Carter]

Right. Or like that child just needs some discipline. Like, how do you, how do you help us think it through in a nuanced way? Because I think that that would be like a knee jerk reaction. Like your child's playing Minecraft all day long and he's blowing you up and your other kid is like hurting you. What the hell's going on?

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah. So my older son does not do that anymore. That was a, that was a burnout. And it's because I doubled down on very strict parenting. I was never a gentle or attachment parent. I was like, I'm frickin sleep training this kid at 12 weeks and I am like 1, 2, 3 magic. Like, put him in the timeout. Like, you cannot act like this. Like, very traditional.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes. And how'd that work out for you?

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Oh, that's why we got to the violence. So I think the other piece, and I'd love to just give that the working definition we use for research and for our work with families is PDA is a survival drive for autonomy and equality that consistently overrides other survival instincts like eating, sleeping, hygiene, safety and or toileting.

[Kristen Carter]

Wow.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

So one or more of those basic needs is going to start to be impacted when you, when they're reaching burnout or when you're doubling down on the like, well, they just need to like do the thing or they just, they can't talk to you like that. It reaches a point where there's so much stress in their system that control starts to coalesce around a basic need, one or more. And then physiologically they're impacted by how much stress. So my son stopped eating and stopped speaking and he stopped walking. So that's where we get out, out of the like, parenting strategies and into like caregiving and disability.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes. Like, my child is not okay.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah. And so, like, we. I can speak to the basic needs patterns, because I think this is a missing link for a lot of people.

[Kristen Carter]

Sure.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

But I don't want to just ramble.

[Kristen Carter]

No, I. This is fat. Like, I am riveted. So if you could go there, that would be great. So your son stopped. Say it again. He stopped eating, Walking. Walking.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

And speaking.

[Kristen Carter]

And speaking. How old was he at the time?

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

He was four and a half. And this was.

[Kristen Carter]

Until, like, otherwise, like, kind of neurospicy, but fairly typical, kiddo.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

So I always. He was my first child.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

And I just thought I sucked as a mom because I was like, everyone else seems to, like, still have a life and go out to dinner. I used to live in Washington, D.C. and I had a job in an office downtown. And I couldn't really function besides that because it was like, when he was born, he did not sleep, like, at all. My friends were so worried about me. They got me a night nurse, and she recorded his sleep patterns. And it was like, she was like, I've never seen a kid like this. Never seen an infant like this. It's like, he'll sleep for 10 minutes and then be awake for two hours, and then I'll sleep for 20, and then he'll be awake for another hour and never napped. No. It was insane. Y. I see that you're recognizing this.

[Kristen Carter]

On a level that is uncomfortable for me.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

I'm relating to it on a level that's uncomfortable. And I will just. I will share. So. One of my kids was very similar, and we tried everything.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

And I did not sleep for the first year of his life. And I wasn't, like, the co sleeper. I wonder now if that would have helped.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Maybe.

[Kristen Carter]

But at the time, you know, I was very traditional like you were, and I was. And all of my friends were having babies at the same time, and my kid didn't sleep. And then my friends would give me advice, and then I would just cry and get angry. Cause I'm like, I guess I don't.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

I guess I just suck.

[Kristen Carter]

I guess I just suck. Or I. Or my kid sucks.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yes, Both.

[Kristen Carter]

That's the part. Right.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

It's a dyad of sucking.

[Kristen Carter]

That's the part that I'm ashamed of, really, is, like, thinking that it was his fault or that he was doing it to me. And I remember saying to my husband, I know he's only six months old, but I feel like he's trying to manipulate me.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

And, like, he's six months old. Like, what Are you even talking about. But that is how I felt about my infant.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

Okay.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah. I felt even worse things than that. So it's very common.

[Kristen Carter]

Okay.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah. He.

[Kristen Carter]

So you were saying, you were just describing him as a kiddo. So he didn't sleep.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

So he didn't. He didn't sleep. He. He didn't play or engage. Like he. I could entertain him.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

I could build things for him that he would destroy. I could do jazz hands and improv, but he couldn't. And I had a second infant, and so I saw. And he's more internalized than Cooper, but he wouldn't like reach out for toys or play. He couldn't be independent because he'd hurt himself, scream, or hurt someone else. And this extended all the way through burnout and beyond. So he needed undivided attention. Like not mom's in the room and also folding laundry, but like I am full on, hands on. But then he'd go off to school or preschool and he was like charismatic, a leader, no problem. He would spend the night at my mother in law's house in D.C. and he would eat differently, go to sleep earlier, not be defiant or break things. And the second my face showed up, Meltdown. Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

I'm hungry, I'm time. Yeah.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

So he, My older son is so fight flight. That's his nervous system pathway. And his, his equalizing is so outward that I saw the mechanisms. Like I. Once I started to understand pda, I could see every activation, like what caused it. But I wanna also say for parents, like my son's basic need, his stickiest basic need is what I call it, that he was disabled from, was eating. And for two years he ate three processed foods. Okay. Lay's potato chips, popcorn and pirate's booty. I'm not exaggerating. Like, he was at risk of a feeding tube.

[Kristen Carter]

Wow.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah. And when I would put supplements and stuff in chocolate milk before he dropped those.

[Kristen Carter]

Oh, he would know.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

He would drop it.

[Kristen Carter]

Oh, so now it's no longer a safe food.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah. And we, you know, we went through therapy and all the things. But for other parents, they. The kid might eat fine, but they might still be in diapers at 7 or 8. Or the kid might be peeing everywhere except for in the toilet or having a toileting regression. UTIs and Capresis, things like that. So that would be like the toileting basic needs. And this can be teens and adults too, how it impacts them. And this has nothing to do with social communication, lack of skills or intelligence. This has to do with access and what's happening in the nervous system and brain. This is why I consider it a disability. Eating can also look like compulsive eating. But with teens like we often see ARFID and anorexia diagnoses that are not helped by traditional methods. Yeah, for sleep we might see constant night waking, needing to co sleep or movement into a non 24 hour sleep cycle. For hygiene we might see complete refusal, but like to the point where they'll fight you physically about teeth brushing, bathing, nail cutting, hair cutting. Or it might be safety. So this could be self, self harm, unaliving ideation and then. Yeah, or towards others, like physical violence towards others. So, so those five things get in the way of these children's ability to live. And it is fluctuating because it's cumulative. But yeah, I think of PDA as a nervous system difference or disability.

[Kristen Carter]

If somebody is listening and they are thinking, okay, I see a lot of this in my kiddo, but it's not that bad, it's not that extreme. Is it still something that they should learn about and pay attention to?

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

In my world, there's no shoulds. I'm always trying to give everyone their own autonomy.

[Kristen Carter]

Help me out. I appreciate it, I can handle it. So no shits people.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

No no shoulds. You do you. So I think it can be really helpful for parents who have neurodivergent kids who have learned a lot about neurodiversity. And so they're thinking about sensory, they're thinking about executive function, they're thinking about social communication, restricted and repetitive interests to add to their repertoire.

[Kristen Carter]

I love the way you said that.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

The idea that what is causing challenges, avoidance or struggles in the relationship could be based on the perception of autonomy and equality because it's often the missing piece. So for like a true PDA child, it's the defining feature. It will override other things. It will be the first lens that we want to see them through. But I think for ADHD and autistic kids, neurospicy kids, like there is a strong drive for autonomy. It's not necessarily a disability, but we can do a lot more collaboration and relational safety if we're taking that into account.

[Kristen Carter]

Oh, I 100%, 1 million percent agree with that. I, I think that. And we're going to get to the point where we talk about like low demand parenting and what does that look like? But I'm curious if under the hygiene umbrella, would that also be like their space?

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Ooh, that's a good question.

[Kristen Carter]

So is It Mostly their body.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

So the reason that I focus on those five basic needs is because, like, a space doesn't have to be clean to stay alive.

[Kristen Carter]

I see.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

But, like, teeth eventually will get infected or, you know, so there's, like, a second tier of things we can think about, like activities of daily living. So, like, leaving the house, leaving their room, movement, connection, learning. Which a clinician can argue with you and say, those aren't necessary to stay alive. So it's not a disability. Which is why I frame it as such, because I very strongly believe that this disables a subset of neurodivergent children and should be taken seriously. But in terms of not being willing to clean their space. Yeah, that's certainly a pattern we see. For sure.

[Kristen Carter]

I feel like you're.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Am I in your house right now? You know, got my glasses on.

[Kristen Carter]

It's so interesting because I always have this. I always have this, like, line that I'm walking on this podcast, which is the best thing I can do is be vulnerable and connect. Yeah. And the worst thing I could do would be to share something about my family member that they wouldn't want shared.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

I understand.

[Kristen Carter]

And so I just feel like I'm always on this tightrope of. I. I think that, like, being vulnerable and connecting is so important, and my. My kids autonomy and their ability to own their own story is really important too. And so it's like, ugh. But I will say, yes, you are in my home and burnout. I do believe that my son went into, like, a PDA burnout phase, and it was very scary.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

And that was a couple years ago. And finding your content and being able to just understand the lens to look through and the ways to build safety for him, it changed everything.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

That's great.

[Kristen Carter]

I've never gotten teary on this podcast ever, y'.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

All.

[Kristen Carter]

My goodness. But the. The ability to understand him through that lens changed everything. And so that's why I think it's just so important that parents hear what you have to say, because some parents will hear you and say, like, nope, that's not my kids. And then you just move on. And that's, like, great for you. I'm so happy for you. I am so happy for you. But anyone who is like, oh, my goodness, like, my kid is ADHD or autistic or OCD or something, but there's more there. He's never. Or she's never fit the mold, and they've always been so hard to understand, and I don't understand why there's always this battle, the constant battle that goes beyond oppositional, defiant, constant battle, like, why? And I think pathological demand, avoidance, understanding that it's even a thing and a concept can just change so many families.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah. And it gives us much more compassion.

[Kristen Carter]

Right.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Than just being like, your kid is oppositional.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Or a bad kid. Because, like, you think that as a parent, like, I'm a bad mother and my child is not a good kid, you know, with a lot of these behaviors.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

And it's an invitation to see it a different way. That can be really healing for families.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes, absolutely. Okay, let's move to right now. From what I understand, the conversation around PDA is under the umbrella of autism. I think, and I'd like your clarity on this. My listenership is adhd, but when I'm coaching, and I mean, I coach thousands of people and what I hear is a lot of PDA tendencies. And so I'm a little bit confused about whether or not someone with ADHD can be pda. And we can talk about it in terms of teens and kids. Is it exclusively under the autism umbrella or is it, like, broader than that?

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah, it's a great. It's a great. It's a great question. So I am not the definitive word on this, but I can talk to, like, why don't I talk a little bit about, like, how we got here.

[Kristen Carter]

Sure.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

And where we are now and what I.

[Kristen Carter]

It's a developing conversation right now.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

So PDA was a term that was first coined in 1980 in the UK by a woman named Elizabeth Newson. And she conceptualized it as adjacent to asd, Autism Spectrum Disorder, but was noticing a lot of social strategies for avoidance. So the way it was termed was like an anxiety driven need for control.

[Kristen Carter]

Okay.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

And the children used social strategies often to avoid tasks. And so I think now there's this conversation evolving because we've had a lot of PDA adults on social media and in their own content talking about their lived experience.

[Kristen Carter]

Right.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

So we have Sally Cat, we have Christy Forbes, we have Demi Burnett, we have lots of creators where you see a different internal lived experience. And it is often placed under the autism spectrum disorder umbrella. So, like in Australia, it's diagnosable under asd. But personally, because I've worked with so many families and seen the patterns, I think there are many adults who identify with PDA and do not identify as autistic. And there are many of their children who would never meet the criteria for autism because they're like, super social. And like my older Son, social, outgoing, makes eye contact. He is autistic, but, like, by a clinician, he would be viewed much more as adhd.

[Kristen Carter]

Sure.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

But he identifies as autistic and pda.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

So I'm hedging a little bit here. I'm just gonna say it. I think you can be ADHD and pda. I don't think you need to be autistic, but that's not a popular opinion.

[Kristen Carter]

I love that you were just like, I'm just going to say it.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

I hedged for a lot. No.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

But I. As a researcher. So there's two things. One is, like, identity and lived experience. And I'm never going to tell someone you have to be autistic in order to be pda if this is your experience. And I've worked with a lot of adults and met a lot of adults who are like, I'm pda, but I'm ADHD and pda.

[Kristen Carter]

Right.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Or I'm just pda. Then we have the clinical stuff, which is, like, political evolving and not something that, like, I have a big say in. Right.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah. You know what I mean?

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

But I feel very strongly because, like, the pattern I do see is that so many families who could be helped by the PDA lens are not taken seriously because their kid doesn't present as typically autistic. And that's why I want to keep this conversation open.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Acknowledging that, like the. The DSM, the diagnostic statistical manual keeps changing. Right. Like 2013, pervasive developmental disorder, not otherwise specified, and Asperger's were scooped into the autism spectrum. So it. It's pretty broad.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

This podcast is sponsored by AG1. AG1 Next Gen is a daily health drink clinically shown to support gut health and fill in common nutrient gaps. And as a person with adhd, I can tell you that nutrition and my diet are one of the most difficult aspects of my health journey because the executive function involved in making sure I.

[Kristen Carter]

Get enough nutrients into my diet is.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

It's so complicated for me.

[Kristen Carter]

It's.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

It's really hard. Can you relate adhd, or can you.

[Kristen Carter]

Relate to this difficulty of, like, did I even eat today?

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

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[Kristen Carter]

Et cetera, et cetera.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

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[Kristen Carter]

It's easy. Easy, easy, easy.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

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[Kristen Carter]

It's so I just, I think you're being really generous and I appreciate that.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

I'm gonna get some hate on this one.

[Kristen Carter]

Listen, there's no way to tell the truth without getting hate. Yeah, there's just not, there's no way to tell your version, whatever version of the truth that it like there's no way to say what you think without getting hate. And, and I just appreciate your willingness, I appreciate your willingness to like open yourself up to that hate because what it does is that allows the thousands and thousands of people that are ADHD and listening to this podcast to say, wait, maybe this is actually something that I should consider without drawing the line and saying, well, I'm not autistic. I don't think I would meet the criteria for autism. So this is not something that I need to even think about.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

And I think that's a very generous interpretation of pda. And listen, I, my husband would be like, this girl right here is the most demand avoidant woman in the world. And I just, I don't think I would meet the criteria for autism. But I have a lot of these internal battles of. And we're going to Talk about this in the next episode of like, the struggle of being an adult and setting tasks for myself to do and then feeling that for me it's more like freeze in those moments of like, I can't do it, I'm not going to do it. You can't make me do it. And that's me talking to me.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Totally.

[Kristen Carter]

And that's like, I like, it's not normal.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Cause it's like survival brain and frontal brain.

[Kristen Carter]

It is exactly that. And I like, have been in burnout shutdown modes in some ways. Not maybe to the extent that you've described with your kids, but certainly not able to function.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

And I just. So anyway, I appreciate the generosity of your interpretation.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Absolutely.

[Kristen Carter]

I absolutely appreciate that. So how do you know the difference between a child who is PDA and a child who's a little a hole?

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

I don't think children are a holes.

[Kristen Carter]

Oh, gosh. Should I take that part out?

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

No, no, no. Here's the thing. Can act like a holes.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

And sometimes my husband and I will finish the day of caregiving and be like, man, he was such a dick today. Right. So, like, I don't say that as like a judgmental thing at all. But my spiritual belief is that, like, our children are acting in a way that is in the asshole genre because of something, not because they are an asshole. Right. And so there's always, to me, a root cause. Like, I don't think that. And I could be wrong about this. Right. And people will argue with me, like, but I have a spiritual belief that in each child is. And human is a divine light that can never be corrupted. And our job as parents, clinicians, teachers is to facilitate that light to shine. And so, like with our PDA kids, the threat response is what we're interacting with. It's not the child.

[Kristen Carter]

Say that again. It's the threat response that we're interacting with, not the child. Yeah.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Like, you're not your nervous system and you're not your thoughts and you're not your emotions. You are the witness of those things, whether you call it consciousness, soul, spirit. And not to be too like, woo, woo. But yeah, I have that belief. And I had to develop that belief to stay with the hardness of my son. Like, I was not a spiritual person before my son's burnout.

[Kristen Carter]

What's so interesting, as you say that is I come from. It's so interesting to even have this conversation because my, like, family heritage is like fundamental Christianity, which views children through the lens. And I'm speaking broadly so like, people chill, but chill out. Just chill.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

This is.

[Kristen Carter]

We're going there. It views children through the lens of like, you were born with this in nature. Yep. And it's the parents job. And this is horrible.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah. It's the opposite of what I.

[Kristen Carter]

It's the opposite of what you just said. Like, it's the parent's job to rid the child of their sin nature. And we do that by understanding that the child is, you know, born with original sin. Original sin. I'm like, what is that word again? So you're born with original sin and you, like, have to be corrected at every turn in order for that to be made right?

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

And that's how I was parented. That's how I started my parenting journey to my shame. And what we forget and like, sorry to make this Christiany, but, like, what we forget is that, like, we're also made in God's image. Hold on.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

Right? Like, you have to, if you're going to be like a fundamental person in that way, like, you can't also neglect the part where, like, we're image bearers. So, like, your child is an image bearer. Like, what are you doing, Kristen? Thinking that your child is just like the worst person. Right. And I like. I mean, I like your version so much better because I want to view my child as good.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

It's a Buddhist version. Can I give you a quote?

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

So Buddhism says that the challenge for humans, or the problem with humans is not that they're sinners, it's that they're blind to their true nature, that they forget what they are, which is like, part of source. It's exactly what you said. Right. But I think we can get really far away from that because everything in our culture is. And I have this internalized of like, I'm not worthy just because I exist. I need to be productive. I need to be palatable. I need to do things right.

[Kristen Carter]

Productive, Palatable. Pretty. All the P words. We gotta be all of em. Yeah.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

So I think, you know, I was raised Catholic, Episcopalian and Catholic, depending on where we were in. My parents divorce and I sort of abandoned all religion to be more of an academic. You know, it's not popular to talk about spirituality in academic circles, most of them. But I had to find something to trust because my child, for all intents and purposes to me, looked like kind of demonic. And like, I've had to do a lot of trauma work on that.

[Kristen Carter]

Wow.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

And so I had to decide, am I gonna see this kid as bad or Am I gonna see him as good and act from there? And I chose the latter, and I'm really glad I did, because now I see the beautiful human that he is behind that threat response. And so I try and approach all people from that lens. And sometimes I get pissed off and don't do it. But, like, I try and have that as my baseline.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes. Okay. So when we are encountering a kiddo who is defiant, whether they're pathological, whether they're PDA or not, what you're saying is we're interacting with behavior. We're not interacting with the person.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah. Like the self.

[Kristen Carter]

The truest self.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah. The higher self. Or like the spirit of that child, the heart of that child. We're interacting with a nervous system response. I think sometimes it can be trying to get their needs met. You know, I'm not totally discounting behavior that is goal oriented, but what is the goal? Right. Like, and I'm not trying to blame parents. It could be like something's happening at school or they don't feel seen, or they have neurodivergence that we haven't recognized. And so it feels out of nowhere. And sometimes the needs are invisible to us. Like, they need lower lights in the room. So I try and view it like that. And it, you know, it saved my family to. To think about it like that because I was ready to head for the hills.

[Kristen Carter]

I believe it.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Like, I was like, I'm done with this. Yes.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes. Okay, so let's chat about how do you exist in a family and, like, have a family that is, you know, I mean, you got to put food on the table.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

Kids need. I don't know, I feel like kids need the rhythms, education of some sort. Whether even if that is, like, unschooling or whatever. Like, we need to be moving things forward. How in the world do you do that with a pathologically demand avoidant child? Especially if there are other kids in the mix.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah. Yeah. So I always encourage parents to, like, take one digestible bite at a time and to start with things that don't require changing the family system or necessarily involving anyone else. So, like, let's say we just have one parent who wants to experiment with a different way of being with the child. There are a couple, like, simple but not easy changes we can make. So, like, one of the most simple things is wait until they speak to you instead of asking them questions. Right. Like that. You can do that without changing anything. You can still have your family dinner. You can still have a curfew but even just our interactions throughout the day can be activating that threat response. Right. So not speaking, waiting for them to initiate conversation when they do initiate conversation, allowing them to talk about what they want to talk about without an agenda. We can also think about experimenting with autonomy in ways that is less scary. Right. Like, we can think about small examples, like, let's say you have a neurodivergent, an ADHD kid who just, like, keeps wanting to eat with their hands. And you're trying to be like, no, I need to teach them to use their utensils.

[Kristen Carter]

It's my job as the parent to teach them like that. That's in us.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Totally. But the assumption with PDA is they already know. They already know. They just aren't accessing that frontal lobe where the skill resides and the executive functioning resides. So what if we could give them autonomy around that? Like, they're still at the table, we're still eating dinner, you're still feeding them. But there are so many things you.

[Kristen Carter]

Wanna eat with your hands. Yeah.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Like, parents immediately go to the. Like, well, I can't pull them out of school. And just like, no curfew.

[Kristen Carter]

Chill, chill, chill.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Like, one step at a time. Because then when parents make even small tweaks.

[Kristen Carter]

I've seen it.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

They see the difference.

[Kristen Carter]

I've seen it in my house.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

I've seen it in my own. It's. You're not lying.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

I'm not lying, people.

[Kristen Carter]

I know you're not lying because I've done it and I. I've. So my husband and I had, like, a very frank conversation about, like, where can we just chill.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

Where can we add support with. With tasks that seem age appropriate? That he should be able. Like, should.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah. That's the lowering demand.

[Kristen Carter]

Right.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

He should be able to do this. And it's like, so, like, I just started cleaning his room every day. Yeah. It was so easy for me. Yeah. It was as clean as we might. And, like, for him to enter into a clean space and not have a fight about, like, why aren't your clothes in the. In the hamper? Like, why can't you just. Da, da, da, da. It was just like, I'm just gonna take care of it. Yeah. That one tweak changed so much.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah. And it all comes back, though, to that fundamental assumption. Is it my job to teach them to be good and give them the skills to do so, or is it my job to facilitate their true self coming out? And so it's like, that's where we always get stuck Right. Because I have the same conditioning of like. And I get fear of, like. You know, I can't be writing my son's homework for him because he's already in fifth grade. But it's like, well, if he's learning the information and he's having avoidance or freeze around the actual task of writing. Cause he did it all day at school. I'm just gonna write the thing that he's dictating to me. I'm lowering the demand of writing. But then in the back of my head, I'm like, this is bad parenting because of my condition.

[Kristen Carter]

He's never gonna learn. He's never learned.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

But he already knows he did it all day at school. It's just he's at his threshold. So there's so many hundreds of interactions we have with our kids that don't require, you know, throwing, you know, not having a bedtime, not having a curfew, you know, having chaos in the home. It's. It's really about, can we let some stuff go and facilitate them being, you know, like, my kid is attending school, and that is getting him to his threshold. So everything else at home, I'm gonna support. Even if he can cognitively and physically do it in other moments.

[Kristen Carter]

That's so important. And I just wonder, have you had to work through, like, it triggering you.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

100% all the time? Yeah, of course.

[Kristen Carter]

That's not just me.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

Cause it's like, I think that I also have that equalizing in some ways. And so then I'm like, doing that with a child, which is inappropriate. Inappropriate, right. And so, like, letting him have the last word. Letting him have the last word. Letting him. Letting myself be lower. It is. And that's, I think, for me, like, family stuff. Maybe not neurodivergent, but more like trauma, where I'm like, nobody's gonna have control over me. Right. And I see mine probably more through the lens of trauma, maybe, or, like, my desire to equalize. But it's like, it brings the worst in me up to the surface. And it's a constant invitation for me to regulate, to soothe, and to make a choice of, like, who are you going to prioritize here? And what's most important here. And I hate it.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah, it sucks.

[Kristen Carter]

I don't like it. It's not fun.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

It's not fun, but it is. The thing that helps me and has helped other parents who would relate to you a lot is to really focus on a couple things. One is first and foremost, just like, that belongs like, absolutely, I'm fucking annoyed with my kid and I feel resentment. This belongs like welcome resentment. It's all good. There's no judgment of self. All the self compassion. The second is realizing that we can find meaning in it. And so like for me, every time I interact and have that knee jerk reactive human nature that I have and I can pause and sort of recenter and then act from love, I feel like I'm growing. And so it's like there's something in it for me, you know, and there's meaning.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

And then if you have a strong drive for autonomy, like one thing that's helped our families a lot of the parents are PDA themselves is recognizing that you have a choice. Right. It's cumulative. This is what I love about pda. Okay. So like every interaction is a choice to activate or accommodate. And it builds in the system, right. But because it's building over time, we can accommodate two out of three times and still make a huge amount of progress. So that third time you can just be like not fucking cleaning the room today, you know, and it's still going to be okay because you have your baseline.

[Kristen Carter]

I love that there is still choice in it for the parent. And there's still a measure of like, as long as the ratio and the scale is tipped in this direction, I can get a little bit.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

You can be your imperfect self that all of us are.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Everyone with ADHD knows what to do.

[Kristen Carter]

To improve their lives.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

You go to bed at a reasonable time, you wake up early, you make.

[Kristen Carter]

A list, you cross things off the.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

List in order, blah, blah, blah. Like, yeah, we know what to do. But ADHD is not a disorder of not knowing what to do. It's a disorder of knowing exactly what to do, but not being able to get yourself to do it. That's why I created focused. It's an ADHD coaching membership for adults with ADHD. I'm a life coach with multiple certifications, and since 2019, I've coached over 4,000 adults with ADHD from all over the world. I know what it takes to help an adult with ADHD go from hot mess express to grounded and thriving. I'll teach you how to understand your ADHD brain, regulate your emotions and your behavior and accept yourself flaws and awe. And with this foundation, we'll build the skills to improve your life with adhd. And not only do you get skills and tools in focus, but you're surrounded by a huge community of adults with ADHD who are also doing the work of self development.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Right?

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Alongside of you. Dr. Ned Hallowell says, healing happens in community. And I have absolutely found this to be true. So if you're an adult with ADHD who wants to figure out how to be motivated from the inside out and.

[Kristen Carter]

Make real, lasting changes in your life.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Join hundreds of others from around the world in focus focused. Go to ihaveadhd.com focused to learn more. That's ihaveadhd.com focused to check it out.

[Kristen Carter]

Take me back to. Every interaction is an opportunity or a.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Choice between activating the nervous system or accommodating it. There's no yellow zone. There's no gray space.

[Kristen Carter]

Say more.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Okay. So often a place I got stuck here, too. All the stuck places are places that I've been, like, brought to my knees on. You know, like when I was first trying to do therapy with my son, it's like trying to teach him the zones of regulation. And, like, what I observed is like, there's red or there's green. Like, there is no in between. It's just boom, boom. And so the way I think about it is like, you can't hedge. You can't be like, okay, I'm going to be flexible, but in the back of my mind, I'm still going to be trying to teach something in this.

[Kristen Carter]

Moment, see right through it.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yes. It's like energetic perception. So I don't like to operate in binaries. Like, I'm always all about the nuance, but this is the one place where I coach families to be like, if we don't accept this logic, we're never going to make progress.

[Kristen Carter]

Fascinating.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Because it's from that logic that we can actually engage in a new form of decision making with a new logic that can actually support peace in the family. But if we're still trying to make decisions around things like boundaries, School screens siblings from a place of. If I just say it differently or if I just find a tool on the Internet to make it so that they don't get activated when I give them a boundary, you're gonna stay stuck because you're looking to fix what is a disability. You're trying to make it so that they don't have pda. Cause the nature of it is when they neurocept I don't have freedom, choice, autonomy, and equality, their nervous system goes off.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

That doesn't mean we never set. We don't set boundaries. It does mean we have to make decisions accordingly.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Does that make sense?

[Kristen Carter]

100%. I appreciate you saying there's green or red yeah, like, no, yellow. Very clear. That's very clear. Is that why things go from 0 to 100 in a snap second? And you're just like, wait, what just happened?

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah, that and the accumulation.

[Kristen Carter]

Okay. Yeah.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

So, like my older son, because we've been doing this for six years with him, he has a window where, like, his. He still gets activated anytime I set a boundary with him.

[Kristen Carter]

Sure.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

But because he has a window of tolerance from all the work we've done, he. He might be like. Be like, shut up under his breath instead of. And recover instead of, like, an hour's long meltdown. Meltdown.

[Kristen Carter]

Okay. So is the lower demand parenting all about increasing their window of tolerance, increasing their ability to have a little bit more access to their thinking brain?

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah. So I think there's three things that are the goal.

[Kristen Carter]

I can't wait to hear.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

I'm so excited.

[Kristen Carter]

Tell me the goal.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

One, the very first goal is felt safety on a subconscious level with you. The connection. So they can be very attached and emotionally attached to you and still be perceiving danger around you.

[Kristen Carter]

Okay.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

So the goal is to, like, get you guys back on the same team where it's like. Because once you're on the same team and they trust you, you can do a lot more than when you're activating their nervous system.

[Kristen Carter]

I've experienced both.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

It's shocking.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah. So the connection contrast. Totally. Do you want to say more?

[Kristen Carter]

No, I don't. Continue. Sure. Yeah, I'm positive.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

2. It's to create a window of tolerance in their nervous system. So we teach 12 accommodations. And I don't love the words low demand parenting because.

[Kristen Carter]

Oh, interesting.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

The true root cause is, like, autonomy and nervous system safety and lowering demands. I think of as one of the 12, like, doing things for them. I see they can cognitively or physically do for themselves. So, like, putting their shoes on and tying them even though they can't, or delivering food. So the more we accommodate, the more that they develop a window of tolerance that their cumulative nervous system stress comes down, and then the third is creating new neural pathways back to the thinking brain and regulation. So, like, let's take a scenario where we want our kid to get off a screen, right? And we're like, okay, it's time to get off the screen. They're gonna have that internal activation.

[Kristen Carter]

And I'm. I've braced myself for it already. I'm like, it's gonna freak out. I'm having anxiety about setting that limit. Like, I. I'm worked up already.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah. I mean, it's hard stuff.

[Kristen Carter]

Okay, continue.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

So the next decision point is like, they're not getting off. So are we. There's a couple ways to do this. Like boundaries I define as what you do in response to something. So there's choices. We could turn off the WI fi. We could physically take the iPad out of their hand. We could start yelling at them while we take the iPad out of the hand. So let's say instead of just removing the iPad, as a regulated parent being like, I'm sorry, but it's time, knowing that they're going to activate, we choose to also get mad and try and teach. Instead of one activation in the system, we have two. Okay. And then they have meltdown. So now we have another choice point or decision point. We can bear witness and de escalate, or we can get even madder. Like, you can't throw things, you can't call me names. And then they're, they're just going further and further into life threat. And the pathway is just going down the like fear pathway into the survival brain and going deeper and deeper in that. Or we could maybe add on some autonomy. Like, hey, bud, I'm thinking in about 10 minutes we need to get off the iPad and they're like you. Or they hiss at you. Or no, depending on the age. And then we might give them 20. Right? So we add in a little, you know, they stay in their thinking brain a little bit longer. And then we do have to take the iPad away, but we're doing it with love of just like, hey, bud, it's time for bed. I'm gonna take the iPad away. And they go into this huge, huge meltdown. There's activation there. But then instead of trying to teach or incentivize them to do it differently, we just sit with and bear witness and be like, I'm so sorry this is so hard. I love you. And then we repair afterwards, it's like their neural pathways are more quickly coming back to safety. And that's what we want to teach our kids. Like, you're safe. You can get back to your thinking brain where you can access empathy, connection, executive functioning, rational thought.

[Kristen Carter]

And I'm a safe place for you to have this freak out, which is not fun for you either. Like, it's not fun for the child.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

No.

[Kristen Carter]

Right. And so when we are like resisting it, upset about it, adding to it, it's taking something that's already so difficult for them and escalating it so much. Rather than just like, I'm here for you and I'm Strong enough to, like, contain this moment.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah. Because it's just the nervous system. It's not your kid.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Right. It's not their self. It's just.

[Kristen Carter]

And.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

And accepting. Like, I'm gonna set the boundary and they're gonna activate.

[Kristen Carter]

Both are gonna be true.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah. And. And there's no strategy.

[Kristen Carter]

There's no, you know, what is the three quick tips. Yeah. It's like, hey, Chachi, P.T.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

How do I set this boundary so that my kid doesn't have an activation? Part of what we work on with families is like, that radical acceptance piece of. There will be an activation, especially if they're in burnout because they don't have the window yet and they don't have the felt safety. So how can we accept that and act from there? And it's hard. Like, it. It brings up all our own traumas and our own shit. Right.

[Kristen Carter]

It's a constant invitation. And, like, you either accept the invitation and you do your own healing, or you fight with your child for the rest. For the rest of their lives. Like, that's kind of where I've been. Like, okay, either I'm gonna do the work in myself so that I can be safe for him, or we're gonna be at odds. And there will be periods, because we've experienced that, of him under functioning and being impacted in a really big way because of. Because of the way that either his brain is working or our family system is working or something. Yeah.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

And there's no blame here. Like, I. I speak from doing literally everything, quote, wrong. And this is why I don't say any shoulds. It's like, I tried everything, and I tried to make him not pda, and I railed at. You know, I howled at the moon and hated my life and hated him and all the things. And so I would never judge a parent for hearing this and being like, fuck Casey. You know, like, depending on where I was in my journey, I would have listened to myself and been like, get out of here. Get out of here.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah, same. I mean, I. I have explicit memories of people suggesting, like, softer limits and me being like, what are you? You're crazy. Absolutely not. That's ridiculous. And, you know, that's what I needed. He did. He needed soft. He needed softness. He needed to be hard and live in a soft environment. And that's a tricky scenario for a parent to set up.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

It is.

[Kristen Carter]

It is.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

But so much of our resistance isn't about actual need for the family. It's about our fear that we're doing it wrong.

[Kristen Carter]

Yep. Or our programming of, like, this is how it should be done. And if I'm a good parent, this is what I should do. I should. He should eat. Like, his room should look like this. The table manner should look like this. The homework time should look like this. And if it doesn't, that's an indictment of me and my motherhood.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Totally. Yeah. And I will say a lot like, parents listening. Or if you think you might be pda, like, your intuition knows it's just you are. You feel like you're doing it wrong.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes. Like, I can't follow my intuition because I would be doing it wrong if I did.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah. As we wrap it up, thank you so much for being here. And for parents listening who are, like, eyes are opening, mind blown, like, oh, my goodness, I really think this might be the lens that I should be looking at or looking through at my child. What hope can you offer to them? Like, what. Where are some places that they can start with understanding what's going on and maybe shifting the dynamic in their family? Yeah.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Okay. So the first thing I'd love to share is just strengths, because we haven't talked about it. So these kids are awesome. Like, they're and adults when they are in regulation and safety. They are incredibly charismatic. Great senses of humor, very creative. Like, I talk about something called transformation activities, where they have this knack for transforming things from one material state to another in ways that no one else would think about it. Energetic truth radar, you know, which is hard.

[Kristen Carter]

The BS meter. Is that what you're talking about?

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Spirit connection with animals, strong drive for justice, social justice, even within their own families. So I see all of these very strongly in my children when they are not in their threat response. And so if you're coming to PDA for the first time and what you're seeing is the threat response, you're gonna feel like my kid is a bad kid and. Or struggling a lot. And so the thing I need to do most is to do all this therapy and all of this conditioning and training them not to be that way. So I think just like, putting that on a shelf and focusing on your interactions with them first. So I would say reducing speech, reducing the amount of questions, allowing them to have the last word without correction. Noticing the places where you're trying to do teaching moments and just allowing them to be instead of teach. Right. Like with my younger son on Minecraft, I'm so conditioned to do this where he's, like, asking me to spell something, and I'm like, oh, I gotta teach him how to read. And it's like, just spell it for him.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Right. Lower the demands that feel like you shouldn't. Right. Like the remote is right next to their hand and you're in the kitchen and they're like, I need the remote or remote. Just put it in their hand.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

You know, because you're. You're reformulating the relationship right now. Tie their shoes for them, pack their backpack for them. When they have a meltdown, think of it as a panic attack. And that's good. Like, hold space and repair. Right. Like, I bring my kids like a popsicle afterwards. Instead of being like, you can't do that. I'm giving tips here.

[Kristen Carter]

This is so good. This is so good.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Thinking about. For autonomy and equality. Thinking about. For autonomy. Think about where, when, and how rather than if. So like, with eating, like, maybe they could eat somewhere other than the table, in a bowl that you don't usually use at a time that's not usually a meal time.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Equality would be letting them be above you. Like, let them climb on the car while you're eating dinner. Sit on the floor while they're talking to you. So just starting to experiment. Like, just take two weeks and try out some of this stuff and see the difference. See if your child shifts, and if they do, it's like, oh, yeah, maybe this is one of the root causes of what, why things are hard.

[Kristen Carter]

I. I think that experiment is so important because if things do begin to shift, that is such a clear, open wide, like, okay, let's do more. Let's do more. Let's do more. Like, what else can we do to accommodate. In order to expand their window of tolerance. Tolerance. Oh, my gosh. Their window of tolerance so that they have more access to their thinking brain. So that they can just be themselves.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

They can just, like, live their lives.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

And you'll feel better.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Like, as my husband said, I don't know about all this stuff, but I do know that what we're doing now is making me feel like shit as a parent because we were doing all the strict stuff. So, you know, also recognizing that, like, it might feel better for you if you're not constantly in conflict.

[Kristen Carter]

100%. What it looked like since my son was a teenager, by the time that I discovered your work and really began to look at him through the lens of pda, what it looked like for us was me cleaning his room, doing his laundry, and putting it away, just, like, doing all of that, cooking him food whenever he wanted it and offering all the time. Do you want some food? Can I make you anything? Whereas before, I was like, he's X amount old. Like, he can take care of it himself. I was cooking dinner for the family at age 12. Like, he can make food for himself. You know, like, parentified Child's just like, it's fine. Hashtag parentified, hashtag we've got some drama. But when you think about yourself as a kid and then your own child, you're like, I don't need to do this for him. Like, I was independent at that age, giving him way more screen time than we're comfortable with. Way more screen time.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Way more. So much more. So much effing screen time. So much fucking screen time.

[Kristen Carter]

So much. And part of that was seeing one of your reels that said that screen time is a regulator for them.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

And I knew that intuitively. It was obvious that that was what was happening. But in my brain, if I'm letting him be regulated through the screen, then I'm doing it wrong, because he needs to learn how to regulate on his own. And so I need to take away the regulation tool so that he can go figure it out. And it was very much like, go figure it out. And he was just like, what are you doing to me? Like, this is torture.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

So really just letting him have a ton of screen time and then just looking for ways where I could just say yes instead of where. When he was a kid, I literally said no all the time. And, gosh, it wasn't pleasant for anyone and it was a stupid way to parent anyway. But, like, it's fine.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

But you think, like, that's what your job is.

[Kristen Carter]

That's what my job. Like, my job is to show him where the limits are, where the edges are, where, like, the right and the wrong is. And of course, there's black and white everywhere. There's no gray. It's just black and white. So I'm just. It's a no, no, and everything's no. And now it's like, say yes as much as possible. And even in a no, find a yes.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Yes.

[Kristen Carter]

Where can I find the yes here? Right? Like, where can I. You can't do that. But, like, we could do this instead. And it's changed everything.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

I'm so glad. But it's awesome.

[Kristen Carter]

Thank you.

[Casey Erlich, PhD]

Well, you did the work. That's amazing.

[Kristen Carter]

Gosh, Casey, this. I know this episode is going to blow up. I just know that the ADHD community is really hungry for this information. I know that to be true. I work with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of parents who are parenting kiddos who are really just trying to figure out their neurodivergent kiddos and just like what is going on here. And I know that our community is starving for this information. So thank you. Thank you for your generosity for being here. I can't wait to talk to you next week when we talk about PDA in adults. And one of your colleagues will be joining us for that conversation. So guys, stay tuned. Like share, subscribe, all the things Send this to your partner, send this to your kids, send this to your mom, send this to all of the people who you know will benefit from it. And we're going to see you again next week. Goodbye.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

If you're being treated for your ADHD but you still don't feel like you're reaching your potential, you've got to join Focused. It's my monthly coaching membership where I teach you how to take tame your wild thoughts and create the life that you've always wanted. No matter what season of life you're in or where you are in the world, Focused is for you. All materials and call recordings are stored in the site for you to access at your convenience. Go to ihaveadhd.com focused for all the info.