354 Why Even Your Own To-Dos Feel Like an Attack: The Explosive Reality of Adult PDA

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Why Even Your Own To-Dos Feel Like an Attack: The Explosive Reality of Adult PDA"

I Have ADHD Podcast | Episode 354 | November 25, 2025
Host: Kristen Carder
Guests: Casey Erlich (At Peace Parents), Kendall Damoshek (At Peace Parents)

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Episode Theme & Purpose

This episode dives deeply into Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA) in adults—how it manifests, overlaps with ADHD, and why even self-imposed tasks or to-dos can feel deeply threatening. Host Kristen Carder, together with parent coaches and PDA experts Casey Erlich and Kendall Damoshek, explore the nervous system dynamics behind PDA, its characteristics, and nuanced strategies for self-accommodation and compassion, especially for adults with ADHD who might also experience PDA traits.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Does PDA Look Like in Adults?

(03:00 – 05:00)

• Kendall Damoshek: PDA can manifest as procrastination, lack of access to basic needs, risk-taking, inability to address hygiene, or even an inability to use public restrooms.

  "If we think about it as a nervous system disability where threats to autonomy and threats to equality are building activation in our nervous systems, then you know, how that presents is going to be varied." (03:11)

2. The Five Characteristics of PDA

(04:38 – 11:07)
Casey and Kendall break down the five key characteristics:

1. Survival Drive for Autonomy

• Autonomy needs might override other survival instincts. If "freedom and choice" feel threatened, the nervous system gets triggered.

  "Is that what's activating my nervous system... cause I don't have freedom and choice?" (04:47)

2. Equalizing

• Can appear as effort to restore a sense of equality, either by acting out toward others or internalizing (self-harm, self-loathing).

  "An internalized PDA er, might harm oneself, destroy one's own things, or have internal self loathing." (05:33) – Casey

3. Masking

• PDA masking is a nervous system-driven, automatic safety response, not a learned, deliberate imitation of norms.

  "Instead of a fight flight, like at home or with a safe person, like a partner, it might be, I'm gonna go into freeze fawn or shut down. So you don't see the threat response." (06:43) – Casey
  "It's really like an automatic autonomic thing." (07:10) – Kendall

4. Need for Undivided Attention/Safety

• Intense need to co-regulate with safe nervous systems; strong overlap with body doubling in ADHD. Anecdotes shared about needing a companion on work trips for basic functioning.

  "...I needed somebody who wasn't going to have expectations around me or my time or my energy. And my dad is great at that." (09:10) – Kendall
  "The fact that I bring an emotional support person on every work trip, I can understand it..." (10:41) – Kristen

5. Fluctuating & Cumulative Nervous System Activation

• Functional “surface” periods punctuated by severe, sometimes incapacitating burnout; vigilance about personal thresholds is necessary.

  "...having to monitor that threshold like a diabetic would [their] insulin levels..." (11:39) – Casey

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3. Personal Narratives: Burnout and Inaccessibility of Basic Needs

(11:52 – 17:21)

• Kendall shares a period of near-total incapacitation (unable to do housework, leave the house, or access basic needs) due to PDA burnout, unveiling deep shame and confusion at the time.
• Kristen shares a similar period after major life stressors, noting how “couch time” is common for ADHDers and reframing it in the light of PDA.

"My executive functioning is actually great. Like, I can map everything out. It's the doing that is the issue." (15:15) – Kendall

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4. Experiencing and Managing Burnout: Different Lenses

(17:21 – 24:07)

• Distinguishing burnout characteristics for autistic vs. PDA nervous systems.
• Autistic burnout responds to “healthy” activities (yoga, sleep), while PDA burnout increases inaccessibility to even positive actions, sometimes activating further nervous system stress.

  "Our kids actually can't do [what's healthy]." (23:06) – Kristen
  "I could do all the research from the couch... and I couldn't access any of them." (24:07) – Kendall

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5. Accessing Basic Needs: Toileting, Eating, Hygiene

(28:56 – 38:48)

• Casey and Kendall share that cumulative nervous system stress can drive control behaviors around eating (misdiagnosed as body image issues), sleep, elimination, and hygiene.
• Kendall describes years-long struggle with being unable to urinate in public, holding it for hours in pain, even with physical ability present.

  "And your body wouldn't let you?" (26:08 – 26:18) – Casey/Kendall

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6. Kendall’s PDA Journey & Parenting Realizations

(39:43 – 44:29)

• As a parent, her search for answers for her highly demand-avoidant children led to personal discovery of PDA.
• The framework provided immense relief, replacing feelings of being a disappointment with acceptance and understanding.

  "...all of a sudden, I had a framework that was... I didn't have to feel like a disappointment." (45:34) – Kendall

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7. Why Even Self-Imposed Demands Feel Threatening

(47:22 – 50:19)

• Kristen highlights the experience of resisting even self-imposed calendars/plans and asks Casey and Kendall to explain.
• Casey: PDA brain divides into rational ("I want to plan") and subconscious ("I didn't consent and now I'm reacting"). Consent only exists in the moment.

  "I don't want to create a schedule... I don't even want to listen to me..." (47:53) – Kristen
  "If you have a PDA tendency you have the subconscious part that's like, I didn't consent to that, and now I'm going to react to it." (47:53) – Casey

• Kendall describes real-life PDA accommodations, like requesting the highest hotel room floor to feel "above" as a means of creating safety.

  "It felt like suffocating... but if I'm on top, I can breathe." (50:19) – Kendall

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8. Accommodations & Building the Window of Tolerance: The 4 S’s

(52:51 – 65:46)

• Casey and Kendall provide practical accommodation frameworks:
  • Safe Nervous System: Proactive connection with supportive people (emotional support, presence, body doubling, pets).
  • Screens: Streaming, podcasts, TV for regulation without guilt.
  • Sensory Experiences: Intense sensory inputs (ice water, spicy food, soft fabrics).
  • Special Interests/Dopamine/Novelty: Pursuits that bring pleasure and dopamine hits, like thrifting, reading, or even Real Housewives marathons.
• Lowering demands and self-compassion are critical: permission not to change out of day clothes if it feels overwhelming, accepting that unread books may signal dysregulation, and prioritizing regulation over “should-do”s.

"Lowering demands is one way that I accommodate myself." (59:32) – Kendall
"I would literally stand in front of the closet and then I would, like, go do something else. Then I would come back and stand in front of the closet." (60:20) – Kendall

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9. Experimenting with the PDA Lens: Next Steps & Permission

(66:34 – 71:04)

• Kendall and Casey urge listeners to experiment gently, start small (e.g., skip pajamas if that’s helpful), and honor autonomy in adopting or discarding this lens.
• The PDA framework is not limited to autism—even ADHDers can benefit if it resonates.
• Casey explicitly offers “full permission” to the ADHD community to explore and adapt tools from the PDA lens.

  "If this is resonating for your lived experience, it's relevant to you. And it doesn't matter if you're diagnosed or not." (68:56) – Casey

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "ADHD is not a disorder of not knowing what to do. It's a disorder of knowing exactly what to do, but not being able to get yourself to do it." (18:46) – Kristen
• "The wanting to read it is the loss of autonomy. Because now I want to read it. No, no, no. But I want to read it. No." (57:32) – Kendall
• "Your position can be above, below, equal to, but it's the sense of autonomy and equality that matters." (42:02) – Casey
• "I needed my dad to come to my work trip with me... because I had this lens of I need someone to signal safety to me..." (09:10) – Kendall

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Important Timestamps

• 03:00 – PDA presentations in adults
• 04:47 – 11:07 – The five characteristics of PDA explained
• 14:08 – 15:19 – Inaccessibility of even basic, mundane tasks
• 23:06 – 24:07 – Difference between autistic and PDA burnout
• 28:52 – 38:14 – Toileting, eating, hygiene struggles
• 39:43 – 44:29 – Kendall’s story of recognizing PDA in herself through parenting
• 47:22 – 50:19 – Internalized demands & resistance, even to self-imposed plans
• 52:51 – 65:46 – Practical accommodations, "4 S’s", everyday strategies
• 66:34 – 71:04 – Permission and advice for exploring the PDA lens

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Practical Takeaways

• Accommodations First: Lower demands before trying to “fix” executive function (i.e., don’t force yourself to do even positive things if they feel overwhelming).
• Your Framework: Try different lenses (ADHD, autism, PDA, trauma) to see which helps most—there's no "correct" path to self-understanding.
• Regulation Over Productivity: It's valid to rest, seek sensory comfort, or ask for support—even if it looks trivial or is counter to broader advice.
• Permission to Explore: There is space for adults with ADHD to use the PDA lens and employ these strategies for self-compassion and self-acceptance.

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For more PDA, ADHD, or neurodiversity-affirming tools, check the show notes for resources and contacts for At Peace Parents.

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End Note:
This episode provides insight, validation, and practical tools for anyone questioning why even their self-imposed structures or good habits often feel threatening or unattainable. If you recognize yourself in these stories, you are not alone—self-understanding and gentler self-experimentation can offer profound relief.

Transcript

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[Kristen Carter]

Welcome to the I have ADHD Podcast where it's all about education, encouragement and coaching for adults with adhd. I'm your host Kristen Carter and I have adhd. Let's chat about the frustrations, humor and challenges of adulting relationships, working and achieving with this neurodevelopmental disorder. I'll help you understand your unique brain, unlock your potential, and move from point A to point B.

Hey, what's up? This is Kristen Carter and you've tuned into the I have ADHD podcast. I am medicated, caffeinated, regulated and I'm ready to roll. I'm ready to party. That's what I'm ready to do. We're going to party today. I am so looking forward to this conversation. If you tuned in last week we had a discussion about pathological demand avoidance or PDA in children. And this week we are talking about what that might look like in adults. And I've got to tell I get asked questions about PDA in adults, constantly in focused my ADHD coaching program. And I really think that this is something that is so important for us to learn and talk about. So I am thrilled today to welcome back Casey Erlich from At Peace Parents. It's so exciting. And with her she brought a colleague and my goodness, get ready. Let me tell you a little bit about Kendall. Kendall Damoshek is a parent coach and the director of content and curriculum for At Peace Parents, a neurodiversity affirming organization that provides education to support others in understanding and supporting PDA children and teens around the world. Kendall is also a PDA autistic mother raising four PDA humans under the age of 10.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yes, that's true.

[Kristen Carter]

My goodness.

[Kendall Damoshek]

That's not.

[Kristen Carter]

Not.

[Kendall Damoshek]

It's not nothing.

[Kristen Carter]

That's. That's quite. That is quite the thing. I'm so glad that you're here with us, Kendall. I know you're going to add a nuance and a lens to this Conversation that would otherwise just not be available to us. So thank you.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Oh, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

[Kristen Carter]

So excited. Okay, let's get started right off the bat with, like, what might PDA look like in adults?

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah. So it can look a lot of different ways. And I think it's important to think about it from like, the root cause of pda. Right. Because even in the name, if we think about like pathological demand avoidance, we're going to think about like, procrastination or not wanting to do things, which is one aspect for some people. But it's not the only part of pda. But if we think about it as like a nervous system disability where threats to autonomy and threats to equality are building activation in our nervous systems, then you know, how that presents is going to be varied. So I mean, it can look like, it can look like procrastination. It can also look like, like lack of access to basic needs. It can look like not being able to go to the bathroom when you're in public spaces. It can look like never really being able to keep up with your dental hygiene. It can look like taking big risks, you know, which I'm sure is something that like, overlaps with adhd.

[Kristen Carter]

Right.

[Kendall Damoshek]

And yeah, I mean, Casey, you probably have bird's eye views on lots of patterns too, with PDA adults.

[Casey Erlich]

So I think it might be helpful to talk about, like, the five characteristics and maybe you can give us anecdotes and we can share anecdotes.

[Kristen Carter]

Let's do that.

[Casey Erlich]

So we talked last week about the survival drive for autonomy that overrides other survival instincts. So I think this is something that, you know, internally, like, you'd have to decide, is that what's activating my nervous system because someone's putting themselves above me or cause I don't have freedom and choice? Like, is that why my nervous system's going off?

[Kendall Damoshek]

Right.

[Casey Erlich]

Equalizing, which is the behavioral response to perceiving that there isn't autonomy and equality, which can be towards others, being above others or controlling of others or critical of others or towards self. That's the second.

[Kristen Carter]

Can you just pause there and tell me what, what do you mean towards self?

[Casey Erlich]

So let's take an easy example of like a PDA child might be told to put their shoes away and they comply and then they go destroy their mom's, like, plant. But an internalized PDA er, might harm oneself, destroy one's own things, or have internal self loathing. Yeah.

[Kendall Damoshek]

So like, even like a personal example so when I was little, I would, instead of, like, having a tantrum, I would, like, go into my room and bite my arm really hard.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah, right.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Or like, instead of taking it out on a sibling, I would take it out on myself. And even when I've gotten back into burnout states in adulthood, that happens, you know?

[Kristen Carter]

Okay, that makes sense. Thank you for that explanation. Yeah. So that was, number two, equalizing.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

The third.

[Casey Erlich]

The third would be masking. So the way I think of PDA masking as slightly distinct from autistic masking, which is the imitation of neurotypical norms and a somewhat learned behavior. I'm introducing a binary here.

[Kristen Carter]

Sure.

[Casey Erlich]

But for pda, it's like whatever the brain perceives as the most safe response based on the environment, that's what the nervous system pathway is going to be. So instead of a fight flight, like at home or with a safe person, like a partner, it might be, I'm gonna go into freeze fawn or shut down. So you don't see the threat response.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah, and you might see that a lot in, like, okay, well, I can't be PDA as an adult because I'm able to go to work. Right. But then maybe you get home and you're yelling at your kids, or you're controlling of how your spouse is cleaning the kitchen, or. And so it comes out in these equalizing behaviors at home, because home is your safe space, but out in the world, you are masking. And it's not. It's really like an automatic autonomic thing. Like, when we think about autistic masking, it's like, you know, I've heard people talk about it as, like, manual, like a man. Like, everything is manual. Like, you're thinking about, how does someone do this thing? And therefore, I will do it that way, because that's the way it's done. Whereas this is really like the nervous system taking over and being like, you're going to behave in this way, that's going to keep you safe.

[Kristen Carter]

Unconscious, automatic. Fascinating.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Fascinating.

[Casey Erlich]

The fourth would be, and I know you have some anecdotes for this, that need for undivided attention. So that is actually like you're trying to get signals of safety from another nervous system because your baseline is one of threat.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah, I'm, like, getting really uncomfortable and hot.

[Casey Erlich]

Well, it also overlaps with body doubling and adhd, so I'd love for Kendall to.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah. So, like, okay, here's a recent anecdote. So earlier this year, Casey and I were presenting in Ireland, and Casey was Presenting virtually. And I was presenting in person.

[Kristen Carter]

Wow.

[Kendall Damoshek]

And I was super excited to go. It's something I wanted to do. And I could immediately feel, like, just, like, vibration in my body and, like, tenseness. But it wasn't about the opportunity. It was like, I was gonna be going alone. Right. And I. I wanted to be able to explore Dublin. Like, it's such a cool place. It was such an amazing opportunity to be able to go. It was literally the first time, I think I'd been away from my kids since my first was born. You know, it was, like, a big deal.

[Kristen Carter]

It was time.

[Kendall Damoshek]

It was time. But I was like, I want to be able to take advantage of it. Right. And I just could see myself going and doing the presentation, but, like, having all of my nervous system energy towards that presentation and then only being able to stay in the hotel. Mm. And so I invited my dad to come, and, like, I had just turned 40, and I needed my dad to come to my work trip with me, you know, which, like, doesn't feel very professional or mature, but I am a professional. I am a competent adult. But, like, because I had this. This lens of. I need someone to signal safety to me, and, you know, it was very particular who I chose. Like, I needed somebody who wasn't going to have expectations around me or my time or my energy. And my dad is great at that. And so, you know, we went and it was great, and it allowed me to explore the city.

[Kristen Carter]

That's awesome.

Awesome.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

So the fact that I bring an emotional support person on every work trip, I can understand it, including, like, where I'm going to Kansas City in November, and my coach is coming with me. Because that's normal, right?

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah. Well, it's normal for me. Normal for this table. Normal for this table. Yeah, for sure.

[Kristen Carter]

That was number four, I believe.

[Casey Erlich]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

Okay, where are we now?

[Casey Erlich]

And I would love, if we can, to circle back to the basic needs thing, because I think that is a big one. Yeah. But the. The fifth would be the fluctuating and cumulative nature of the nervous system activation. So this is why we see, like, fairly on the surface, like, typical functioning and then sudden burnout, where there's, like, incapacitation and impact on basic needs in a way that's more like, do I need a doctor or therapist?

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah.

[Casey Erlich]

And then, you know, having to monitor that threshold like a diabetic would. Insulin levels of, like, am I getting close to where I'm tipping past my threshold?

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah. Yeah. Like, so just, like, on that note, when I was in my mid-20s. My husband and I were living. He was in grad school. We were living in Northern California and we were newly married and had decided we wanted to try and have kids. And I'm also narcoleptic, so I know I got it all going on. So. But I. I had been on medication on stimulants to keep me awake during a workday. Sure, but you can't be on stimulants when you're trying to get pregnant. At least not the. Not the medication that I was on. It wasn't just stimulants, too. There's other.

[Kristen Carter]

Sure.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Intensive narcolepsy medications. So I had to get off of everything. And by this point, I had been in the workforce post college for about three years. So I had three years of accumulated nervous system stress, and things had been getting progressively harder and harder and harder. So when that coincided with me getting off of medication, it meant that I actually couldn't work because I didn't have, like, the awake. The alertness and the awakeness during the day to, like, work at a job because I would just have fallen asleep at my desk. So my husband was in graduate school and I was essentially like, just by default, a housewife. Right. And like, my husband and I, we do not ascribe to traditional gender role views of things. Like there. No problem either way. It's just like, that's not been part of our narrative. But like, you know, it makes sense if he's at school all day, you know, and in the lab and running experiments and writing and researching and I'm at home with zero other responsibilities. Like, I should be able to clean the kitchen up from breakfast.

[Casey Erlich]

Should.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Should. Right. And I spent a year on the couch. Yes. I literally could do nothing. I watched like, multiple times. I watched how I met your mother from episode one to the last. I watched the Office from episode one to the last.

[Kristen Carter]

At least you're making good choices.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah, those are. They are great shows. And I. And I would. I remember, like, thinking to myself, like, okay, well, after this, I will get off the couch and I will go clean the kitchen. And we were living in a really small apartment, you know, like, it was like a junior one bedroom, you know, and like, all the mess and the chaos was around me, but I literally couldn't move. I couldn't walk out the door. I couldn't make any healthy moves, like, go for a walk. I couldn't go to the grocery store by myself. I literally couldn't do anything but sit on that couch. And I didn't Have a framework for it then. Right. So, like, I felt very ashamed.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Because I had all the time to do all the things that we needed to do, and I couldn't do any of them, honey. And it was. It was so rough.

[Kristen Carter]

Right.

[Kendall Damoshek]

And here I am, like, someone who is intelligent, capable. You know, my executive functioning is actually great. Like, I can map everything out. It's the doing.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Kendall Damoshek]

That is the issue. Right. I know how it should be done and how it can get done. So it's like, I could see all of this, and then I just couldn't. So, you know, luckily, like, that year gave me time to actually rest and use things for regulation and bring down that nervous system activation. I wasn't working. You know, I had the privilege of being supported, you know, by a family member who had some understanding of what was going on.

[Kristen Carter]

Beautiful. Yeah, beautiful.

[Kendall Damoshek]

And, I mean, that gave my me time for my nervous system to reset so I could actually be, like, a functionality human again.

[Kristen Carter]

Wow. Okay. That's really, really helpful. That's really, really helpful. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna try to not do this every time.

[Casey Erlich]

Do it, girl.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Do it.

[Kristen Carter]

But it's just, like, everything you say, I'm like, same. Like, I've been through that season. Like, yeah. Burned out after wedding planning and graduating from college. And not just wedding planning, but, like, wedding planning in a toxic family system that was also, like, had no money. So, like.

[Kendall Damoshek]

And probably lots of expectations. Ooh.

[Kristen Carter]

Just, like, very, very, very difficult.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

And then I spent a year on the couch, but for me, it was because this was probably 10 or 15 years before yours. It was Live with Regis and Kelly and then the Tony Danza show, which was only just that one year, but I get to watch every single day. And then the View, and then by the time the news came on at 12, I was like, I think I can get in the shower now. Then I would take a shower and then go back to the couch.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that sounds like a very familiar experience to me.

[Kristen Carter]

You know, just attribute that to, like, ADHD and just, like, overwhelm and some trauma stuff. And just to hear you talk about it in the context of pda, I'm like, yeah, well.

[Kendall Damoshek]

And I feel like, you know, a lot of things can contribute to the same symptoms. Right. Like, there's a lot of overlap in all of these categories as to, like, what things look like. And so, you know, one of the things that personally I like to think through is, like, what lens is helpful for me Right. So it's like if thinking. And sometimes that's multiple, right? Like, it might be that thinking through a trauma lens is really helpful and helps you, like, work through some of the stuff that is keeping you on that couch. Right. And it also can be helpful to look through a PDA lens and think, like, is it also this accumulation of threats to autonomy and equality that are keeping me on the couch? And if that's true, how can I accommodate myself through that lens? And does that help me?

[Kristen Carter]

Everyone with ADHD knows what to do to improve their lives. You go to bed at a reasonable time, you wake up early, you make.

A list, you cross things off the.

List in order, blah, blah, blah. Like, yeah, we know what to do. But ADHD is not a disorder of not knowing what to do. It's a disorder of knowing exactly what to do, but not being able to get yourself to do it. That's why I created focused. It's an ADHD coaching membership for adults with ADHD. I'm a life coach with multiple certifications, and since 2019, I've been coached over 4,000 adults with ADHD from all over the world. I know what it takes to help an adult with ADHD go from hot mess express to grounded and thriving. I'll teach you how to understand your ADHD brain, regulate your emotions and your behavior, and accept yourself, flaws and all. And with this foundation, we'll build the skills to improve your life with adhd. And not only do you get skills and tools and focus, but you're surrounded by a huge community of adults with ADHD who are also doing the work of self development right alongside of you. Dr. Ned Hallowell says, healing happens in community, and I have absolutely found this to be true. So if you're an adult with ADHD who wants to figure out how to be motivated from the inside out and make real, lasting changes in your life, join hundreds of others from around the world in focused. Go to ihaveadhd.com focused to learn more. That's ihaveadhd.com focused to check it out.

You just, like, opened my mind to something that I think is so important, especially as, like, we consider neurodivergence and all of the different people listening, it's like, okay, if you're in on that metaphorical couch or literal couch.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

What's available to you? What lens is available to you?

[Kendall Damoshek]

Right.

[Kristen Carter]

Like, can we look through the autism lens? Can we look through the ADHD lens? Can we look through the pda? Like, experimenting within the different Lenses and just figuring out, like, what's going to be most supportive and helpful. It doesn't actually matter, like, what lens it is.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Like, right.

[Kristen Carter]

Which one is more helpful and supportive and. And helps you to be who you want to be.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yes. And. And one of the things, too, that I think is particular to PDA is that sometimes the pda. Well, often I find the PDA lens has to come first if PDA is at play.

[Kristen Carter]

Okay.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Because I would sit on that couch and I would know what I needed to do and I would set a timer. You know, I would use, like, ADHD strategies. Right. I would set a timer for myself. Like, okay, when the timer goes off, that's when I'm going to get up and you know what, I'll set a second timer or I'm going to write out a list and I'm going to have that, you know, I'm just going to go through the checklist or, you know what, I'm going to figure out what's the easiest way for me to accomplish these tasks, or I'm going to plan out the function. You know, like, how am I going to do this the night before or the week before? Or can I set up systems? Or can I, you know, can I go on Etsy and download somebody's, you know, like, monthly housekeeping planner?

[Kristen Carter]

Oh, my gosh, have we done all of these things? Like, maybe still be the trick.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Right, right. And so it's like, it wasn't that that lens wasn't accessible to me or that I wasn't using it from a pragmatic perspective, but I couldn't do it.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Casey Erlich]

Can I please chime in, please? So I believe that I've been in autistic burnout before, and I think what helped me was very different than what I see helps PDA burnout. And this is also where I think you can get tripped up. So for me, it, like, I need to sleep a lot, but then I need to go to yoga. I need fresh air, I need movement, I need to cook healthy. Like, it didn't have as much to do with, like, not being able to access things. And more like, I'm going to do all these healthy things instead of just working all the time with sensory overwhelm.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Okay.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Casey Erlich]

And. And so, like, when we think about autistic burnout, especially for our kids, like, sometimes it's counterintuitive through a PDA lens because it's like, well, fresh air should help and healthy food should help and getting off screens and movement, and our kids actually can't do it.

[Kristen Carter]

Sets the kids nervous system off. Like every healthy thing that you say, they're just like activated by it.

[Kendall Damoshek]

I feel it in my body right now. Yeah, it's just getting flushed. No. Right. It's literally a physiological reaction.

[Kristen Carter]

Oh, sweetheart. Yes. Okay, that makes sense. Like so.

[Casey Erlich]

And like I would like, like put in a nice podcast and clean. Yeah, it would be. Because what I think I would get a lot of my activation around is like achievement, working productivity, staying with the linear plan, not deviating, sensory overwhelm. And so I could still be very active. I wasn't on a couch and burnout. I slept a lot.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah.

[Casey Erlich]

But it was more like nourishing my body and it was much more active than what I see. Like my kids burnouts have been. I don't know if you agree with that.

[Kristen Carter]

Such a helpful contrast. Just as someone just observing the two. That's a very helpful contrast.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah. And I really think it does break down along those lines. Like I could do all the research from the couch about the things that would quote, unquote, help me.

[Kristen Carter]

Right.

[Casey Erlich]

Yeah.

[Kendall Damoshek]

And I couldn't access any of them. Right. And you know, that's always, that's also always been a thing that's been difficult for me with like traditional therapies. Even though I think therapy is a wonderful thing. I've had really excellent therapists in my life. But like when there is like a practical suggestion of how to like achieve betterment one way or another. Right. Immediately my brain goes, well, I will never, you know, like, and, and like, I don't want to feel that way. Like, like I'll go order the book, I'll order, you know, like I'll, you know, get the membership. But whatever it is, like, I'll do, I'll do the first step sometimes, but then it, it just collects dust.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes. Would you. I, I know we still have one more aspect of it that you want to speak to. Right. Because they were sick.

[Casey Erlich]

So sometimes we separate out the survival drive for autonomy and the what it looks like in basic needs.

[Kristen Carter]

Oh, okay. So. But just before we get there, how. What was supportive for you in that, like couch time.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah.

[Casey Erlich]

So couch time.

[Kendall Damoshek]

In couch time. You know, having no expectations, I wasn't working. Okay. I was financially supported. And you know, I have a very, very accommodating husband. I'm very grateful for him. Where he didn't get upset when he came home and nothing was done. He would just like open the windows for me and like, because I could, I literally couldn't get off the couch to open the windows. We had no air conditioning in Northern California. And it would get like. It would get like 80, 90 degrees in the house. And I was stuck on the couch. I couldn't get up and lift up the windows.

[Casey Erlich]

Your body wouldn't let you?

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah, my body wouldn't let.

[Casey Erlich]

The body wouldn't let you. Exactly.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah. And I think that's a really important distinction because it's not. Yes. I was physically capable. Like, I wasn't, you know, I didn't. I wasn't paralyzed. I knew how to walk.

[Kristen Carter]

Right.

[Kendall Damoshek]

You know, you had muscles.

[Kristen Carter]

You know how to open the window.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yes. And my body would not let me go and do it. And I would literally sit on the couch for, like hours just being like, it's too hot in here. Like, I need to open a window.

[Kristen Carter]

God, the compassion, you know?

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah, sweetie. And it. And like. Yeah. So I think framing it as my body wouldn't let me is. It's really important. Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

So lowering.

[Kendall Damoshek]

So it's so lowering expectations.

[Kristen Carter]

Lowering demands.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yes, lowering demands. And then I, you know, while we were trying to get pregnant and while I'm basically in this burnout, like, I just knew that I needed something alive in the apartment with me, right. I needed another, like, looking back on it now, I would frame it as like another nervous system to co regulate me. Right. But like, back then, it was just like, I need a dog. You know, like, I just not like, I want a dog. No, I have to have a dog. I wrote, we had the sweetest landlord. I wrote her a letter that was like, let me list you the reasons why I need a dog. Because she didn't allow dogs in the apartment. But she was super sweet. She finally allowed us. And I remember it was like, we, you know, my husband and I went and we visited family. And while we were visiting, like, all I was doing was like, looking through the adoption pages of, like, different dogs. And like, we could do this one. We could do this one. We could do this one. The day we got back, after we had gotten her. Yes. Literally got off the plane in San Francisco, drove to Palo Alto, did not drive home. Drove to the spca, found a dog and brought her home.

[Kristen Carter]

It was like, this is happening.

[Kendall Damoshek]

It is happening. It was a survival need for me. He was out of the home all day, right. And I couldn't move, but I needed something that signaled safety. And so we got Josie, our little maltipoo, you know, and she was amazing. And immediately that started to help me. And then I could take her for A walk. Right. Because I had a nervous system with me to literally walk from the couch to the door, down the stairs to the sidewalk. Yep, yep, yep, yep. Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, it's awesome. Okay, so let's circle back to needs. Do you want to talk about that? Who wants to take that?

[Kendall Damoshek]

Do you want to like set it up and then I can give an example?

[Kristen Carter]

I love that. I love that.

[Casey Erlich]

Okay, so I think I'm not speaking from like a PDA adult being me, but we do work with a lot of PDA adults. So we do see a lot of like moms for example, who like were had eating disorders.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Right.

[Casey Erlich]

And, and the traditional approaches didn't really help. And when we introduced this idea of like cumulative nervous system stress control coalesces around eating, it has nothing to do with body image. And it's like all these like light bulbs are going off of like, oh, this is an outcome of nervous system stress. And this is why it appeared at this point in my life, even though I didn't have body image issues or other things like non 24 hour sleep cycle, like insomnia or periods when they were in high school where like they would stay up all night equalizing, like controlling, exerting control and then they would like have trouble accessing high school the next day.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Like the staying up all night was the equalizing.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah, yeah.

[Casey Erlich]

Safety. We see a lot of like suicidal or unaliving ideation self harm patterns that they might have had for, for toileting. You know, we've worked with parents who have adult children and so like one pattern was a very intelligent, very capable woman who had gone through college and everything would void in the shower and the mom like didn't understand it. Like how can she do this when the toilet's right there? Or we see encapsis or utis and with hygiene. So often the parent, because we work with parents, but often they have viewed some of their medical issues as separate from like constantly perceiving threat.

[Kristen Carter]

Sure.

[Casey Erlich]

And going through these burnouts or behaving in ways where they're like, I didn't even make that conscious choice to say or do that. It just happened. And it's like they start to connect the dots. So I think, you know, not just thinking about behavior, but also how it's impacting their basic needs or like leaving the house, you know, I know you've talked about also education, like your educational journey wasn't linear.

[Kendall Damoshek]

No, it was not linear. Yeah. I mean I've had so like, you know, with both Basic needs and like my educational journey. So, like, basic needs. Like, I, you know, so for me, the basic need that got most affected was toileting. So I stopped being able to, you know, urinate in anywhere where there was anybody else. And like, I would fly across the country and literally be holding it for 14 hours.

[Kristen Carter]

Wow.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Super painful. I would. And this is the thing too. It's like, it's not that you don't want to. It's not a motivated choice. Right. Like, I would go into the bathroom, I would sit down, I would sit there and try and end up sobbing because I was in pain.

[Kristen Carter]

And your body wouldn't let you?

[Kendall Damoshek]

My body wouldn't let me. I actually had a therapist explain it to me because eventually I went to therapy for it before I ever had a PDA lens. But she would say, like, your body's not letting you. Like, your body is not relaxing enough to release. Like your body has to be released. You can't push it.

[Kristen Carter]

Right.

[Kendall Damoshek]

So everybody has to be relaxed. You can't push it. So. So, yeah, so like, it's, it's definitely affected my basic needs. And that was like a decade, yeah, at least a decade of my life that it was like that for. And I've also had sleep affected. You know, I was, I mean, I'm narcoleptic and I would still push through and stay awake, you know, till 3 o' clock in the morning and then get up for school the next day and. Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

Wow.

[Kendall Damoshek]

I remember, like, I was on this really heavy duty medication for narcolepsy when I was in college. And it was supposed to like, take you through all of the sleep cycles, but it would like, make you fall asleep. But that was a threat to my autonomy. And so I would just.

[Kristen Carter]

How dare you make me fall asleep with medication that I am putting in my body?

[Kendall Damoshek]

Exactly. I wanted to get better, rest, I wanted to be more awake. And then I would take the medication and I would literally do everything that I could to stay awake and not like, planning it, but just like, oh, I think I need to. Oh, why don't I. Oh, why don't I?

[Kristen Carter]

You know, I would get up unconscious and automatically.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Unconscious, automatic. I remember, like waking up in weird places in my apartment, like, because I would fall as I would literally go to the point where my body would make me fall asleep. I. There was no letting myself fall asleep. And then that's just how it happened. And yeah, and with, with school too. Like, I was, you know, took me eight years to get my, my bachelor's degree I didn't apply to college when I was a senior in high school, you know, and Kendall's a genius, so.

[Kristen Carter]

No, I mean, that's clear.

[Casey Erlich]

Like, I work with Kendall, and she's brilliant. So it's not a matter of intelligence. Yeah. Or capacity.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Well, it was very confusing for everybody around me because I been identified as gifted from a very young age, and I was supposed to be able. So smart should achieve great things. Exactly.

[Kristen Carter]

You're the hope.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Exactly. Right. And then it was like, my mom. You know, my parents were actually really great about accommodating me, which is also why I don't think I reached burnouts until later in life. But, you know, like, everybody else around me was applying to colleges, and my mom was like, if you want to apply to college, you'll do it.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Kendall Damoshek]

That was it. That was the entire college prep talk from my mother. Right. So I didn't apply to college. And then I was like, actually, I think college would be more fun than, like, no offense to Trader Joe's, but working at Trader Joe's, you know, and, like, arranging flowers.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Kendall Damoshek]

You know, so. So then I did apply, but again, it was like, I didn't have a safe nervous system there. It was far away from home. I. You know, the deadlines in college were horrible for me.

[Kristen Carter]

Right.

[Kendall Damoshek]

And so I came home, went to beauty school. Am officially a beauty school dropout, you know. You know, went through all of these. I love that for you. I had, like, only 200 hours left, but it was just like, only. Well, you have to do, like, 1200. So I was. I had done, like, a significant percentage. But then, you know, it just. It was too much. My most successful time in academics was when I was at a community college because it was small, and, like, I would literally go to my professor's offices to do my homework.

[Kristen Carter]

So smart.

[Kendall Damoshek]

And I had a lot of. I had a lot of accommodation in that type of environment. Being bright and therefore being, quote, unquote, like, above. Right. Not that I saw myself. It wasn't like a better than. It's just my position. Like, when I was taking organic chemistry, I was tutoring it at the same time, and so therefore, I was the authority.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Kendall Damoshek]

It's so good between me and my peers around organic chemistry. And I don't know, like, how my professors, like, intuited that, but it was really helpful for me and allowed me to get through that and then transfer, and then I had lots of other, you know, so it was lots of, like, you know, when I went then to Like a more prestigious liberal arts college. Then all of a sudden, I didn't have that built in accommodation. And everyone was not only really intelligent, but super high achieving. Right. Like everybody's on fellowships and scholarships and.

[Kristen Carter]

And they want to one up you.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Oh, yes.

[Kristen Carter]

That's the part of the culture, if I understand it correctly. Right. It's. It's like.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Totally. And I'm not a competitive person, actually. I'm very, very not competitive.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Kendall Damoshek]

But it's not regulating to my nervous system to not be.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Like at least equal to.

[Kristen Carter]

Sure.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Right, sure. And when I. When I transferred, I immediately went into another burnout. I took two medical leaves at school. It took me four years to get through those last two years, you know, so just.

[Casey Erlich]

Yeah.

[Kendall Damoshek]

And I. And I got to the point there too, where I was in another burnout where I even was losing access to like, my vocal muscles. And like, Like, I'm a singer. I was a music major. Like, I was really interested in psychology and neuroscience and I took a lot of classes in that, but I was a music major and did like vocal performance and composition and I stopped being able to sing at all. Yeah. So, like, it's. You know, I think this ties into basic needs because it's really like your physiology changes when you are under that much nervous system activation all the time. Would you mind sharing your story of.

[Kristen Carter]

How you came to understand PDA for yourself? Yeah.

[Kendall Damoshek]

So, you know, I have four children who I now know are pda, but initially I just knew that life was really hard for us, like, beyond what having four kids close in age should be. And I read everything, so I had like, stacks of parenting books and I had. I was doing everything by the book and things were getting worse and worse and worse and worse.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Kendall Damoshek]

And, you know, I have one child who is. He's like our canary in the coal mine. Right. Like, he's our most externalized presentation of pda. And he was physically aggressive. Right. It was something that, like, had to be addressed. I had to figure out what was going on. And I had been asking ever since he was born, like, is he autistic? Is he, like, what's going on? You know, I cannot soothe this kid. I remember, like, you know, just like having this total meltdown in the kitchen one time, just being like, will I ever be able to do the dishes again or. Or am I just gonna hold this child for the rest of my life?

[Casey Erlich]

Yeah.

[Kendall Damoshek]

You know. Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

I threw a sippy cup at the wall once over that exact.

[Kendall Damoshek]

I. Yeah. Yes, I was.

[Kristen Carter]

I'm glad you didn't.

[Casey Erlich]

If you weren't holding your child.

[Kendall Damoshek]

I remember I created, like, a whole system where I was like, if he's right, I took a laundry basket. He was like, four months old. I mean, he just wouldn't even nap without my body there.

[Kristen Carter]

Right?

[Kendall Damoshek]

He was four months old. I put. No, yeah, I think four months old. I put a laundry basket next to me. I filled it with the coziest blankets and towels, made this whole wonderful nest. And I literally, like, stuck my foot in it so he could be next to me. Oh, my gosh.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Kendall Damoshek]

And he still wouldn't stop crying unless I was holding him. And I remember, like, just like, what.

[Kristen Carter]

What.

[Kendall Damoshek]

What do I need to do? So, you know, we'd been having issues for a long time, but didn't know what was going on. And because he is social and makes eye contact, I was always told, nah, yeah, like, you know what?

[Casey Erlich]

Like, take a parenting class.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Exactly. Take a parenting class. You're an overreactive mother. By the way, I'd read everything that they were suggesting.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Kendall Damoshek]

I was doing everything they had suggested already before they told me to do it consistently. Consistently. Yes. Yeah, consistently. And wow. It was, you know. So I started looking for atypical presentations of autism on social media. That's kind of what my first thing was, because I was like, well, this kid is neurodivergent. And I didn't know that term then. All I knew was like, maybe he's autistic. Right? I was like, something is not typical. I don't know what it is. I need to stop the violence and the chaos in my house, you know, like, my older two are boys. And I always thought, like, oh, they'll share a room. But I couldn't have them share a room because they would take the little. Like, I had a little potty in their room because, like, you know, he was.

[Kristen Carter]

As you do.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Right? As you do. So that in the middle of the night, like, we didn't have accidents, and, like, as they were getting. Supposedly getting sleepy, they would literally take the. The inner thing and toss it across the room. Urine all over the place, Right? And I was like, this is this. Is this. Boys will be boys. Like, is that what this is? Yeah, it's not, right?

[Kristen Carter]

It's not.

[Kendall Damoshek]

But. Yeah, but I didn't know. So anyway, eventually I was like, okay, I'll look up these, you know, atypical autism present presentations and symptoms. And then that fit better. And then just searching that on the Internet led me to pda, and it was Actually, with Casey was the first time that I had heard.

[Kristen Carter]

Wow.

[Kendall Damoshek]

It wasn't the first time I'd heard PDA spoken about, but it was the first time that I'd heard about it through a nervous system. And it was the first time that somebody had laid out these five characteristics that we're talking about and that framed it for me. And it was like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And I was like, oh, not only him, but also my older son and not only him, but me.

[Kristen Carter]

What was that like for you?

[Kendall Damoshek]

It was. Was relieving, you know, like, you know, I was supposed to be this really high achieving person. And I remember my dad always recounts the story where I was like, I turned to him and I said, I think I'm just gonna disappoint everyone. I'm just gonna be a mom. I know I'm supposed to do other things too, but I think this is what I can do, and I'm just gonna have to disappoint everyone. And then all of a sudden, I had a framework that was. And by the way, like, not to say that being a mom is a disappointing choice. Right. Like, I value it. I value having been a stay at home mom. It gave me purpose and was something that, like, you know, the needs that my children had felt important to me, and therefore I had autonomy in choosing to meet them rather than, like a deadline that didn't feel important to me, but, like, having this framework all of a sudden, like, I didn't have to feel like a disappointment to other people. Like, I had validation and I had acceptance.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes. You know, so good. Oh, thank you for sharing, like, the personal stuff. I really do appreciate that.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Of course.

[Kristen Carter]

I really do. I would love to, Casey, get your feedback here. And then if I could, like, if you would share some anecdotal evidence of this. Kendall, one of the things that comes up for my clients a lot and myself is this feeling of I don't want to create a schedule or I don't want to make a plan because I don't want to be told what to do, even by me. I don't even want to listen to me, even when it's something that I am deciding on my own that I know is values based. That is important to me that I want to do. I literally taught a time management class yesterday in Focused, and we were chugging along, chugging along. Great interactive class. And then we get to the point of, like, actually putting things on the calendar, and there was so much resistance, and it was like, I don't want to see this demand. Essentially, these words weren't spoken, but it was essentially, I don't want to see this demand on my calendar, even if I'm the one putting it there. And that, to me, is like, this is. This is extra.

[Casey Erlich]

Like, there's.

[Kristen Carter]

There's adhd, which is like, you know, like, you're. You're distracted, and you are maybe inconsistent, and you're impulsive and you have executive function. But, like, this piece is different, where you're like, I don't even want to see that effing thing on my schedule because it. I perceive it as a demand, and even if it's a demand from me, I don't want to see it. What the heck is that?

[Casey Erlich]

Well, I think it's the internal demands or the internal loss of autonomy. So it's like you have two parts of your brain. You have the rational part, which is like, I want to have structure, and I want to make plans, and I am running a business and coaching families and all of that. And then if you have a PDA tendency, you have the subconscious part that's like, I didn't consent to that, and now I'm going to react to it.

[Kristen Carter]

But isn't consent you. Isn't the consent found in, like, you deciding that you want it at that moment?

[Casey Erlich]

Yeah, in the moment. This is why we can make Kendall.

[Kristen Carter]

That's so important.

[Casey Erlich]

Yeah, excellent point. So with kids, for example, like, this is sometimes why things like collaborative problem solving doesn't work, especially when they're in burnout, because, like, they can agree on something when. And talk about it and understand it and want to be on board with you. When they are regulated, but in the moment they're presented with what their subconscious brain perceives as threatening, they're no longer in that rational part of their brain.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yes.

[Casey Erlich]

So it's like they're just going into the reptilian part, and it's like, no.

[Kristen Carter]

Yep.

[Casey Erlich]

So I think that happens more frequently and more quickly when there is a buildup in the system. So, like, you know, rather than thinking about what's the solution in the moment for that one thing, it's like, okay, I have my life, right? And what are all the ways that I can lower demands, give myself autonomy, make me feel above, like, Kendall, I'm just gonna. You tell it.

[Kendall Damoshek]

No, go for it.

[Casey Erlich]

So Kendall sent me a picture last night of her hotel, and she's like, I got the room that's the highest. Like, one of the highest rooms, so that I have a sense of being above to get me back to a place of safety.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah, brilliant.

[Kendall Damoshek]

But I wouldn't have done that. Yeah, it's accommodating, right? I was like, yeah, it's gonna cost me an extra 50 bucks. But like, I'm, I have to do it because I can't think of myself below. Like, it's not a small hotel, right. Like, there are layers of people on top of me.

[Kristen Carter]

There are hundreds of people on top of me.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

This is not okay.

[Kendall Damoshek]

This is not okay. It felt like suffocating. Like I'm gonna die if a bunch of people are on top of me. But if I'm on top, I can breathe.

[Kristen Carter]

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[Casey Erlich]

And that's like a very adaptive thing. Like, it's not like you're trying to diminish others. It's just like, yes, you might think, oh, this $50 isn't worth it, or this is silly. So it's, it's really looking through the lens of your life of like, I'm going to ask my husband or my partner to deliver me a glass of water that's right next to me. I'm going to allow myself to, you know, do the four, what we call the four S's, which is like safe nervous system, screens, parentheses podcasts and books. If you're analog, sensory, intense experiences, novelty and dopamine, which has some overlap with ADHD and special interests, like, all of that.

[Kristen Carter]

I'm just like, yeah, give me it.

[Casey Erlich]

So how can we incorporate all of that and the accommodations into the way that we structure our lives so that when we get to the moment when we're trying to put fucking things on the calendar, which is our kryptonite, literally.

[Kendall Damoshek]

We literally will text each other kryptonite because calendaring is very hard.

[Casey Erlich]

Like, I can't see it. My husband has started to have to do it for me. And I'm like, is this, is this being autistic? Is this post menopause? Like, what is happening? And so I'm accommodating myself of like, you need to body double me to go through this. And I need to write it on the calendar analog and you need to put it in the Google calendar because I cannot see it. So anyways, like, it's easier for us to confront those losses of autonomy with a window if we're looking through the PDA lens and accommodating ourselves in the rest of our lives with self compassion.

[Kristen Carter]

This is like, this is exactly what you said in the last episode with how we treat our PDA kids, which is like accommodating them so that we can build that window so that they then have access to their thinking brain and can live out what they want to do.

[Casey Erlich]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

And that's what you're saying here is like, accommodate lower demands. Build that window of tolerance to yourself. It's all for self.

[Casey Erlich]

Yes.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

Which I Think is harder for us.

[Casey Erlich]

I know, I know. Because it's like, oh, I'm not supposed to be on the couch watching shows for 10 hours. But, like, what if that's what you need?

[Kendall Damoshek]

Right?

[Casey Erlich]

Like, what's wrong with it objectively?

[Kristen Carter]

Right.

[Casey Erlich]

Morally, I do it with reading and journaling. Like, when I was younger, instead of being on an iPad all the time, I literally spent every minute that I wasn't engaged journaling. And I have to look at what my boys do with screens is the same thing of, like, this is their regulation block.

[Kristen Carter]

Wow. So what has that maybe looked like for. For you? First, can you just speak to, like, do you feel that in yourself, that resistance, even to the quote, unquote, demand that you want?

[Kendall Damoshek]

Oh, yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

The thing that you want.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Oh, yeah. I brought three books with me on this trip. Okay. Guess how much I read. Zero. Yeah. I, like, bought these books for myself, right. Like, I went to the bookstore and I was like, this looks really interesting. Or this is from one of my favorite authors, or this is a book Casey recommended that I really want to read. And I had all the intention of reading them, right. And I couldn't. I couldn't.

[Kristen Carter]

Right.

[Kendall Damoshek]

And. And so before this awareness and this acceptance of myself, I would get really frustrated with myself, right? Like, how come my bedside reading list grows and grows and grows. Like, the pile has now become two piles, has now become, let's put those on the bookshelves and start a new pile. And you know, and I, you know, I would go through phases where sometimes, and I didn't know why, sometimes I would be able to read four books in a month, and sometimes I wouldn't read for three years. And now I understand. Well, those times when I was reading four books in a month, I was regulated, right? And that was like, the only task I had, you know? And then the times when I couldn't were times when I didn't have the regulation to do that, but absolutely, I feel that all the time. And it really is like the two different areas of the brain being disparate. Right? So, like, I buy the book here.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Kendall Damoshek]

And then I want to read it. And the wanting to read it is very meta, Right? So, like, the wanting to read it is the loss of autonomy. Because now I want to read it. No, no, no. But I want to read it.

[Kristen Carter]

No.

[Kendall Damoshek]

You know, and it's like, then the book I slept with the books next to me in the bed.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah. The two parts of the brain warring against each other.

[Casey Erlich]

Yes.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Kendall Damoshek]

And it feels frustrating, right? Until we Come to a place of acceptance. I mean, and then it still can feel frustrating, but at least there's also self compassion.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Casey Erlich]

Yeah.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Right. And then we can start. Once we come from a place of compassion, like, then I can start to accommodate myself. Right. Then I can look at those three books on the nightstand and be like, that's a sign of dysregulation. Right. And I can think through, like, I traveled today. You know, I didn't have a safe nervous system for x many hours today while I was traveling alone.

[Kristen Carter]

Right.

[Kendall Damoshek]

I'm in a hotel room alone. I am, you know, like. Like there are so many things happening in this moment. Even if it's, you know, it's not a burnout, but I'm still having activation. And then I have a framework for understanding myself and not getting upset and just being like, okay, I might not read.

[Kristen Carter]

And like, the world, it still goes on.

[Kendall Damoshek]

The world still goes on.

[Kristen Carter]

And I'm not gonna go to jail.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Nope.

[Casey Erlich]

No. And you're not hurting anyone.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Nope. And I'm not a bad person.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

Oh, that's so helpful. That's so helpful. What are ways that you. What are additional ways that you've lowered demands for yourself? And is that the language that you like to use? Lower demands, or do you accommodate or either way?

[Kendall Damoshek]

Well, I think accommodate is broader. Right. So, like, lowering demands is one way that I accommodate myself.

[Kristen Carter]

Okay. Yes.

[Kendall Damoshek]

So, yeah. So lowering demands for myself might look like, you know, like, when I was first experimenting with this, I was like, getting, Getting into pajamas. Was this task YouTube?

[Kristen Carter]

No. I don't know. It's not about me.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Don't worry. I didn't see that. But, like, it just, it would take me so long to get in pajamas. Like, this should be a five minute task at most. The pajamas are very clearly different from the clothes. Right.

[Casey Erlich]

And it's a sensory incentive.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Right.

[Casey Erlich]

From a sensory lens, it's like, why wouldn't you just jump into them?

[Kendall Damoshek]

From buttons to no buttons. Like, like, let's.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Kendall Damoshek]

And I would literally stand in front of the closet and then I would, like, go do something else. Then I would come back and stand in front of the closet.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

So do you sleep naked now?

No, that's not the accommodation. Because that could be fun accommodation.

[Kendall Damoshek]

If I didn't have four children who needed me to, like, go to different parts of the house that I. Then it would be. I used to, though, like, before kids, I love that. But like, I, I just stopped to change. Like, I just would go to bed in my day clothes yes.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Kendall Damoshek]

And that was like the first demand that I lowered for myself. And it seems really trivial. Right? It's like, okay, how is that going to change your nervous system, Kendall? Like, you just literally just didn't get changed into pajamas. But it did because it's not about how small the task is. It can be a tiny task or a huge task. Either way, loss of autonomy or equality is what is making the difference. And so the expectation to change into the pajamas was what was dysregulating for me. And so lowering the demand of the changing was regulating for me in, like, a one to one ratio.

[Kristen Carter]

Love that.

[Kendall Damoshek]

And then, you know, so that's one way bringing in safe nervous systems. So, like, we don't have this now that we've moved, but for a while we had a housekeeper who was really like a. Who is really like a trusted close friend of mine. And so she would come and yes, she was like, making beds and lowering demands for myself and my kids also. Right.

[Kristen Carter]

Because also accommodation.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Also an accommodation. But also her presence during the day. Regulating was regulating for me. So, like, I was co regulating my kids and she was co regulating me.

[Kristen Carter]

Oh, beautiful.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah. And now we have move with you. Unfortunately, I would. I would have brought her with me. She's amazing. Now we just have guinea pigs, but. But, you know, I'll do that. Like, I'll, like, I'll feel myself getting, you know, and there's not another adult in the house for me to regulate against. And so. So I'll just go grab a guinea pig and I'll literally put them on my chest, like, heart to heart, you know, so bringing in safe nervous systems is big for me. You know, thinking through this 4S system that Casey was talking about. Right. So safe nervous system screens. I have my phone on me all the time. And I used to feel really bad about that. Like, I'm not a. I did not come from a pro screen place. It came from a crunchy granola.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah.

[Kendall Damoshek]

I still had a flip phone when my kids were little.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Kendall Damoshek]

We didn't have an iPad until it was Covid and we were buying a house. And I needed my children to stay alive while I talked to the mortgage broker. So therefore Sesame street came in like that. Like, but now I have, you know, an iPhone and it is on me. Like, I literally have a chain that I carry it around the house with. Because that way, no matter whether I have pockets or not, like, it's always with me.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Kendall Damoshek]

And I just accept that, like, this is an accommodation for me if I'M gonna do dishes. I'm gonna either be listening to a podcast or I'm gonna have an episode of Real Housewives. On which.

[Kristen Carter]

Which location is your place? All of them. Okay. Love it. Love it, love it. Yeah. Okay, so safe nervous system screens. What are the other ones again?

[Kendall Damoshek]

So then sensory, intense experiences. Dopamine and novelty. So I always have my. My safety water bottle with, you know, filled with ice water. Like, fill the entire thing with ice, then with water. So that's like cold, cold sensory for me.

[Kristen Carter]

It's fizzy. That's so interesting. I didn't realize that that was part of it. Yeah, interesting. Yeah.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Because it's a sensory intense experience.

[Kristen Carter]

Sensory intense experience.

[Casey Erlich]

Spicy food can be something else.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

Smart.

[Kendall Damoshek]

And then I've started, like, recognizing that I have sensory sensitivity to, like, fabrics. And so, like, I'll only wear things that feel good on my hands or.

[Kristen Carter]

You know, so smart.

[Kendall Damoshek]

And then dopamine and novelty. Right. Like, I will. Like, one of the things, like, I will go thrifting, like, when I have time for myself. Like, I will go. Because it's. There's always something new, you know, Like, I love. There's this great, like, vintage warehouse where we moved, and it's like. Like a curated flea market that has all these cool things, and it's just like, okay, different new things.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Novelty Dopamine. That I buy something.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Kendall Damoshek]

And instead of feeling like it's a waste. Right. Like, I didn't need that.

[Kristen Carter]

Yes.

[Kendall Damoshek]

I actually did need it. I did need it. From a nervous system perspective.

[Kristen Carter]

Looking through the lens of accommodation.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Kristen Carter]

You're looking through the lens of building your window of tolerance.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yes.

[Kristen Carter]

So that you can function in other areas.

[Casey Erlich]

Yes.

[Kendall Damoshek]

And building that window looks different from traditional advice.

[Kristen Carter]

Right.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Like, I'm not going for walks. I'm not taking more naps. I'm not, like, meditating. I mean, once in a while. But, like, those aren't the things that, like, for me, bring me that same level of regulation that allow me to function and just acceptance of that, that I don't have to. Like, I can design my own. I mean, hashtag autonomy. Right. Like, I can design my own.

[Kristen Carter]

So good.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Like, accommodations.

[Kristen Carter]

So good. Yeah.

[Kendall Damoshek]

And then the last one, special interests, you know, so that sometimes, for me, combines all those things, like all of the Real Housewives franchises, you know, but it's also a special interest in human behavior.

[Kristen Carter]

Right.

[Kendall Damoshek]

So, like, I love watching anything that's, like.

[Casey Erlich]

You know, Exploration.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Exactly.

[Casey Erlich]

Well, in your work.

[Kristen Carter]

I was gonna say my work is special.

[Casey Erlich]

Interest.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

Fascinating.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

So this has been amazing. I adore you both. I want you to move to Pennsylvania. Come be my friends.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Start making plans.

[Kristen Carter]

Please do. You could do another move.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Oh, yeah, why not? We just did one. It worked well. Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

For someone listening who is likely ADHD and just thinking, like, oh, my gosh, like, this sounds like me. Maybe they're resonating. Maybe their heart rate is, like. Maybe their heart's beating really fast. They're just, like, seeing themselves through what you've explained so clearly through your stories. What, like, what should they do? Like, what's their next step? Maybe.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah. I think just, you know, giving yourself permission to explore whether or not this feels like a helpful lens to look through. Right? Like, there's no requirement for this to be what defines you, and there's no requirement for this not to. Right. Like. Like, the autonomy is yours. Right. You know, you're very, like, you're very.

[Kristen Carter]

Much saying you get to decide.

[Kendall Damoshek]

You get to decide.

[Kristen Carter]

You do you.

[Kendall Damoshek]

And, like, start with a small experiment, right? Like, if you're feeling like this resonates for you, like, what is your equivalent of not changing into pajamas at night? What is the smallest thing that you can give yourself permission to drop? Or the smallest area where you can give yourself autonomy and choice where you previously have felt that you didn't have any and, like, just giving yourself permission to try one thing, and then if it. If it feels different for you and it feels improved. Try two.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah. Try another one.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Try another one.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And, Casey, would you just speak to, like, giving. Would you speak to, like, the permission for the ADHDers to. To explore this? Yeah, I. I feel like we need just, like, a little, like, a permission slip. Would you write a permission slip for us ADHDers to explore this? Even though the conversation is usually around autism and pda, can the listening audience still have a place to explore?

[Casey Erlich]

Absolutely. So, as you might have noticed with the way that we talk about all this stuff, at its very, very core is our principles of autonomy and equality. And so what that means is, like, if this is resonating for your lived experience, it's relevant to you. And it doesn't matter if you're diagnosed or not or if certain countries categorize it as such. It's really about. We always say what helps. Right? And so permission to experiment with this logic. Permission to make it your own. And, you know, one thing I know from working with and being friends with ADHDers is like, they're. They're Like, a very dynamic and creative bunch and really fun to be around. And one of the things I love about my ADHD friends is their creativity. And so, as Kendall said, you know, what is your not changing into pajamas and what is your thrifting? Right. Like, instead of, you know, you need to get a bubble bath or get a massage? Like, are you someone who likes to solder or bake or garden? Like, what do you transform as a way of getting dopamine? And that can be your therapy.

[Kendall Damoshek]

So good.

[Kristen Carter]

Permission slip written.

[Casey Erlich]

Yeah.

[Kristen Carter]

Granted.

[Casey Erlich]

From a non clinician.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Okay.

[Casey Erlich]

Don't come for me. Neurodivergent woman to neurodivergent humans.

[Kristen Carter]

But still someone who is in the field.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yes.

[Kristen Carter]

Working with so many children, teens, parents. I mean, that matters. That really does matter. That's not nothing. No, that's not nothing.

[Casey Erlich]

No. I just don't want to get accused of misrepresenting these things.

[Kristen Carter]

I understand.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Yeah.

[Casey Erlich]

But full permission to the ADHD years.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah, I love that.

[Casey Erlich]

Full permission.

[Kristen Carter]

Yeah. I appreciate that. Thank you so much, both of you.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Thank you for having us.

[Casey Erlich]

Yeah, thanks for having us.

[Kristen Carter]

It's been such an honor.

[Kendall Damoshek]

It was. It's been so much fun talking with you.

[Kristen Carter]

Cool listener. All of the information that you need about At Peace parents and how Casey and Kendall might be able to help you if that's something you want, you get to choose is in the show notes. So go find it and let's do this again really soon.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Love it.

[Casey Erlich]

Let's do it. Thank you.

[Kristen Carter]

All right, we'll talk to you next week.

[Kendall Damoshek]

Bye.

[Kristen Carter]

Bye.

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