Kristen Carter (3:54)

here, but go on, go full nerd.

Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (3:55)

Okay. Full nerding. You know about trauma and nervous systems. Right. And so one of the things we know from polyvagal theory is that mammals, unlike reptiles, like lizards, have the ability to socially. They have a secondary vagal pathway that can down regulate the immediate fight, flight, or freeze responses through social signals of safety. Right. Like we're providing to each other right now of like, you're safe, like, magical. So for PDA kids, especially in burnout, it's like, they're not getting the mammalian signals. They're just in their reptilian brain. And so what are the mechanisms that a lizard has to stay safe? It's to flee, it's to freeze, or it's to be the bigger lizard. So that's kind of how I think about it. Of like, let this kid be the bigger lizard.

Kristen Carter (4:53)

Yes. How do you know? Like, somebody listening could be like, it would be valid to be like, her son just sounds like a jerk.

Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (5:07)

Yeah.

Kristen Carter (5:08)

Like your son just sounds like he needs to know who's boss.

Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (5:13)

Absolutely.

Kristen Carter (5:14)

Right. Or like, that child just needs some discipline. Like, how do you help us think it through in a nuanced way? Because I think that that would be like a knee jerk reaction. Like, your child's playing Minecraft all day long and he's blowing you up and your other kid is hurting you. What the hell's going on?

Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (5:38)

Yeah. So my older son does not do that anymore. That was a. That was a burnout. And it's because I doubled down on very strict parenting. I was never a gentle or attachment parent. I was like, I'm frickin sleep training this kid at 12 weeks and I am like 1, 2, 3, magic. Like put him in the timeout. Like, you cannot act like this. Like very traditional.

Kristen Carter (6:05)

Yes. And how'd that work out for you?

Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (6:07)

Oh, that's why we got to the violence. So I think the other piece, and I'd love to just give that the working definition we use for research and for our work with families is PDA is a survival drive for autonomy and equality that consistently overrides other survival instincts like eating, sleeping, hygiene, safety and or toileting.

Kristen Carter (6:35)

Wow.

Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (6:36)

So one or more of those basic needs is going to start to be impacted when you, when they're reaching burnout or when you're doubling down on the like, well, they just need to like do the thing or they just, they can't talk to you like that. It reaches a point where there's so much stress in their system that control starts to coalesce around a basic need, one or more. And then physiologically they're impacted by how much stress. So my son stopped eating and stopped speaking and he stopped walking. So that's where we get out. Out of the like parenting strategies and into like caregiving and disability.

Kristen Carter (7:17)

Yes. Like my child is not okay.

Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (7:21)

Yeah. And so like we. I can speak to the basic needs patterns because I think this is a missing link for a lot of people.

Kristen Carter (7:29)

Sure.

Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (7:29)

But I don't want to just ramble.

Kristen Carter (7:31)

No, I. This is fat. Like I am riveted. So if you could go there, that would be great. So your son stopped. Say it again. He stopped eating, walking, walking and speaking. And speaking. How old was he at the time?

Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (7:49)

He was four and a half. And this was until like otherwise, like

Kristen Carter (7:54)

kind of neurospicy but fairly typical kiddo.

Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (7:58)

So I always. He was my first child.

Kristen Carter (8:01)

Yes.

Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (8:02)

And I just thought I sucked as a mom because I was like everyone else seems to like still have a life and go out to dinner. I used to live in Washington D.C. and I had a job in an office downtown and I couldn't really function besides that because it was like early.

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Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (8:35)

When he was born, he did not sleep like at all. My friends were so worried about me, they got Me, a night nurse, and she recorded his sleep patterns. And it was like. She was like, I've never seen a kid like this. Never seen an infant like this. It's like he'll sleep for 10 minutes and then be awake for two hours, and then he'll sleep for 20, and then he'll be awake for another hour and never napped. No. It was insane.

Kristen Carter (8:56)

Yeah.

Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (8:57)

I see that you're recognizing this on

Kristen Carter (8:59)

a level that is uncomfortable for me. I'm relating to it on a level that's uncomfortable, and I will just. I will share. So one of my kids was very similar, and we tried everything.

Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (9:13)

Yeah.

Kristen Carter (9:13)

And I did not sleep for the first year of his life. And I wasn't like, the co sleeper. I wonder now if that would have helped.

Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (9:24)

Maybe.

Kristen Carter (9:24)

But at the time, you know, I was very traditional like you were, and I was. And all of my friends were having babies at the same time, and my kid didn't sleep, and then my friends would give me advice, and then I would just cry and get angry because I'm like, I guess I don't.

Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (9:42)

I guess I just suck.

Kristen Carter (9:43)

I guess I just suck. Or I. Or my kid sucks.

Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (9:46)

Yes, both.

Kristen Carter (9:47)

That's the part. Right.

Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (9:49)

It's a dyad of sucking.

Kristen Carter (9:51)

That's the part that I'm ashamed of, really, is, like, thinking that it was his fault or that he was doing it to me. And I remember saying to my husband, I know he's only six months old, but I feel like he's trying to manipulate me.

Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (10:03)

Yeah.

Kristen Carter (10:04)

And like, he's six months old. Like, what are you even talking about? But that is how I felt about my infant.

Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (10:11)

Yeah.

Kristen Carter (10:12)

Okay.

Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (10:13)

Yeah. I felt even worse things.

Kristen Carter (10:14)

Okay.

Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (10:15)

Than that. So it's very common.

Kristen Carter (10:17)

Okay.

Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (10:19)

Yeah. He.

Kristen Carter (10:22)

So you were saying. You were just describing him as a kiddo. So he didn't sleep.

Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (10:26)

So he didn't sleep. He didn't play or engage. Like, I could entertain him. I could build things for him that he would destroy. I could do jazz hands and improv, but he couldn't. And I had a second infant, and so I saw. And he's more internalized than Cooper, but he wouldn't, like, reach out for toys or play. He couldn't be independent because he'd hurt himself, scream, or hurt someone else. And this extended all the way through burnout and beyond. So he needed undivided attention. Like, not mom's in the room and also folding laundry, but, like, I am full on, hands on. But then he'd go off to school or preschool, and he Was like charismatic, a leader, no problem. He would spend the night at my mother in law's house in D.C. and he would eat differently, go to sleep earlier, not be defiant or break things. And the second my face showed up, meltdown.

Kristen Carter (11:35)

Yeah, I'm hungry, I'm time. Yeah.

Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (11:40)

So he, my older son is so fight flight, that's his nervous system pathway. And his, his equalizing is so outward that I saw the mechanisms like I once I started to understand pda, I could see every activation, like what caused it. But I want to also say for parents like my son's basic need, his stickiest basic need is what I call it, that he was disabled from was eating. And for two years he ate three processed foods. Okay. Lay's potato chips, popcorn and pirate's booty. I'm not exaggerating. Like he was at risk of a feeding tube.

Kristen Carter (12:23)

Wow.

Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (12:24)

Yeah. And when I would put supplements and stuff in chocolate milk before he dropped those, he would know he would drop it.

Kristen Carter (12:31)

Oh, so now it's no longer a safe food.

Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (12:34)

Yeah. And we went through therapy and all the things. But for other parents, the kid might eat fine, but they might still be in diapers at 7 or 8. Or the kid might be peeing everywhere except for in the toilet or having a toileting regression, UTIs and Capresis, things like that. So that would be like the toileting basic need.

Kristen Carter (13:01)

Yes.

Guest Expert on PDA and Parenting (13:02)

And this can be teens and adults too, how it impacts them. And this has nothing to do with social communication, lack of skills or intelligence. This has to do with access and what's happening in the nervous system and brain. This is why I consider it a disability. Eating can also look like compulsive eating, but with teens like we often see ARFID and anorexia diagnoses that are not helped by traditional methods. Yeah. For sleep we might see constant night waking, needing to co sleep or movement into a non 24 hour sleep cycle. For hygiene we might see complete refusal, but like to the point where they'll fight you physically about teeth brushing, bathing, nail cutting, hair cutting. Or it might be safety. So this could be self harm, unaliving ideation and then. Yeah, or towards others, like physical violence towards others. So. So those five things get in the way of these children's ability to live and it is fluctuating because it's cumulative. But yeah, I think of PDA as a nervous system difference or disability.

Kristen Carter (14:40)

Thanks for listening to this bite sized episode of the I have ADHD podcast. If you enjoyed this clip, you'll find a link to the full episode in the show notes. And don't Forget to visit ihaveadhd.com for tons of adult ADHD support. All right, my friends, I had a great time with you today, and I cannot wait to talk to you again next week. Bye. Bye.