Before You Lead, Face Yourself First_ The Discipline of Self-Mastery

Summary

Podcast Summary: Ideas That Matter with Vusi Thembekwayo

Episode: "Before You Lead, Face Yourself First: The Discipline of Self-Mastery"

Guest: Sean Lowe, CEO of The Key
Date: February 26, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Vusi Thembekwayo sits down with leadership specialist and CEO of The Key, Sean Lowe, to explore the foundational discipline of self-mastery in leadership. The discussion dives deeply into why personal mastery is the prerequisite for impactful leadership, the invisible roots of team and personal behavior, and practical frameworks for leaders to unlock better performance in themselves and their organizations. With a candid, honest, and sometimes vulnerable tone, the conversation challenges leaders to look in the mirror, examine their intentions, and build cultures that nurture growth, purpose, and accountability.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Challenge of Lasting Change in Teams

[04:01] Sean Lowe

• Leaders often struggle to create sustainable change post team-building exercises because they overlook the subconscious roots of behavior. True transformation requires addressing these roots, not just surface actions.

“For every behavior or outcome that has a pattern, there’s a root. In a human, it’s a subconscious root... those beliefs, values, pain, trauma, learning, hopes, dreams that drive us.” — Sean Lowe [03:10]

The Six “Roots” or Pillars of a High-Performing Team

Sean introduces a tested, 30-year-old framework that identifies six critical pillars for sustainable team and personal transformation.

1. Time & Space

[05:55]

• Creating space for reflection, preparation, and connection is foundational.
• Leaders often feel pressure to move fast, but true effectiveness requires slowing down to focus deliberately.

“Time and space is a pillar in any relationship. You can’t get to know your kids if you don’t create time and space.” — Sean Lowe [06:38]

2. Unique Economic Value Proposition (UEVP)

[08:53]

• Everyone has a unique gift that should provide value—and economic returns.
• Leaders should invest time to discover their people's UEVPs, not pigeonhole them into ill-fitting roles.

“What do you do that the unborn, the living, and the dead will never do better than you?” — Sean Lowe quoting her partner Errol [09:04]

3. Personal Mastery

[10:27]

• Mastering oneself—emotions, discipline, self-talk—is a prerequisite for leading others.
• The external world is a mirror of internal realities.

“The degree to which you master yourself is the degree to which you’ll have permission to serve others. You’ve got no business serving people in an area that you have yourself have not mastered.” — Sean Lowe [10:33]

4. Relationship Arrangements

[17:04]

• Every relationship (personal or organizational) is governed by spoken or unspoken agreements.
• Surfacing and openly discussing these arrangements increases transparency, safety, and trust.
• What is hidden gains power; what is exposed can be healed.

“Anything that’s hidden has power over you. The minute you expose it, you can deal with it. Leadership is about calling the unconscious to the conscious.” — Sean Lowe [19:02]

5. Structured Process

[28:36]

• Systems, structures, and processes must serve people—not the other way around.
• Leaders should regularly assess and adapt processes for relevance.

“Test the rigor of your systems. And stop letting them control you. If a rule is not working, change it.” — Sean Lowe [29:08]

6. Purpose

[32:17]

• Humans are intrinsically motivated by purpose—“why”—not just extrinsic rewards.
• Leaders must help people connect daily tasks to larger meaning.

“Herein lies the biggest driver of discretionary energy: when someone knows why.” — Sean Lowe [34:15]

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Personal Mastery and Self-Accountability

Vusi and Sean explore the painful, ongoing journey of self-mastery:

• Leadership is a mirror, not a magnifying glass.
• Many leaders project control or blame onto others rather than conduct honest self-audits.
• Facing “who we are” and not just “what we do” is where growth happens.

“The worst prison to live in is the prison of a lie that you invented.” — Vusi [53:09]

The Boss vs. Leader Debate

• True leadership goes beyond transactional management and positional authority.
• Leaders must inspire, invest emotionally, and challenge themselves to grow—well beyond issuing instructions.

“People don’t catch what you say. People catch who you are.” — Sean Lowe [47:00]

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Adapting to a New Generation

[41:14] Sean Lowe

• New generations seek belonging, purpose, growth, and recognition—and reject outdated, rigid systems.
• Systems must be agile, and culture must empower agency and ownership.
• Leaders who cling to control lose engagement and discretionary effort.

The Intention-Impact Gap

[47:24]

• The most powerful leadership magic happens in closing the gap between intent and actual impact.
• This requires intentional, scientific action, feedback, and continuous personal work.

“Closing the gap between your intent and your impact—that’s where the real work of leadership happens.” — Sean Lowe [48:17]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The world rewards you for [external success], yet to your point, even though the fruit is sweet, the root is poisoned.” — Vusi [56:14]
• “Mastering yourself is a narrow road. It’s discipline. It’s humility, vulnerability, facing your pain... saying no when you want to say yes.” — Sean Lowe [13:11]
• “Sometimes you didn’t rot your root, but now you are responsible for the fruit.” — Sean Lowe [57:00]
• “Leadership is about high accountability. You’ve got to take full ownership for yourself. There is no space for blame game.” — Sean Lowe [57:13]
• “Position is a laggard. So you lead long before you’re given a position to lead.” — Vusi [57:35]
• “If more of us had it… I don’t believe we would have an uneducated child or a hungry child or a destitute child on the planet. It is unacceptable that the world looks like it does and we have everything we need.” — Sean Lowe [79:09]

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Team Regression & Roots of Behavior: [01:54] – [05:54]
• Six Pillars Deep Dive: [05:55] – [35:14]
• Personal Mastery, Doom Loops, Higher Self: [13:10] – [16:42]
• Relationship Arrangements & Safe Cultures: [17:04] – [23:32]
• Structured Processes & System Service vs. Customer Service: [28:36] – [29:47]
• Generational Shifts in Work Culture: [41:14] – [42:21]
• The Intention-Impact Leadership Gap: [47:24] – [48:17]
• Sean’s Personal Journey to Her Calling: [58:46] – [66:23]
• Africa’s Promise & Redemptive Leadership: [76:08] – [79:41]
• Final Reflections on Purpose: [74:43] – [79:41]

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Conclusion & Final Reflection

Sean’s central unshakeable idea:

“It is the heart of the Father that no man shall perish. God’s promises are yes. We are the amen. God can make a promise to you... but if you’re sitting down and not mastering and taking control of your soul, that promise remains. You’ve got to master your soul and take hold of the promise.” — Sean Lowe [75:28]

Both Vusi and Sean challenge leaders at every level—business, family, community—to embody the discipline of self-mastery, take radical responsibility, and infuse cultures with higher purpose, accountability, and transformation. Their tone is equally challenging, compassionate, and empowering: before you lead, face yourself first.

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For more on this episode and to join the ongoing conversation, send your thoughts as a WhatsApp voice note to [phone].

Transcript

[A]

It's time to take your seat at the table. Find out how with Vulcitembegwayo as we discuss ideas that matter, a catalyst for bold action. Hello, family. Hello, family. You join me for another exciting episode of the VT podcast. And here we talk about ideas that matter. This week, I'm joined by Sean Lowe. Sean and I have been doing business for some time now. She's the CEO of a company called the Key. And the work she does is she helps leaders in organizations find a way to lessen the distance between concept and execution, between what you intend and what you achieve. If you're a leader leading people, and you want to get the best out of the people you lead, whether you're in a large organization, an entrepreneur, or more especially, a leader in government organization, today, this is an episode that you don't want to miss. Sean. So we start every conversation with dad jokes, similar to how we do our meetings. Okay, so I got one for you, one for me. Here goes. This is for you. What is an astronaut's favorite part of a computer?

[B]

It's a dad joke. I'm a mom.

[A]

The space bar. That's good, right?

[B]

Don't know whether to laugh or not.

[A]

Or not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's do this one. This one's for me. Let's. Let's see. See, let's see. Oh, this is good one. Did you hear about the guy who invented the knock knock joke?

[B]

No.

[A]

He won the Nobel Prize.

[B]

I have no words. He finds it very funny. Right, let's do a Nobel Prize for this one.

[A]

So if I'm a business, say I'm a business leader, like, I'm an executive middle to senior management, and I manage a team of people. And I've had this experience where we go away into like a management boss, barat they call it, and we strategize and we structure and we do some sort of team building exercise, and we come back and for whatever reason, we regress to the things we were doing the year before. What do I need to understand about why human beings keep reflexing back to their old behaviors?

[B]

Yeah, that's a great question. And I often say team building in the purest sense of the word is not tug of war and bosperat.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Team building in the pure sense of the word is. Is building a DNA right, inside of a team, right. That is unconsciously competent, right. At the levels that deliver the outcomes that are excellent.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

So that sounds very fancy.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of concepts there. Right.

[B]

But what does that look like in practical life? We'll see. And this is the biggest challenge is a human challenge. It's not just only a business challenge that human beings are somehow challenged with these invisible forces that hold us stuck in patterns of, you know, poor performance or bad behavior or really sometimes great stuff. And I think I spoke to you earlier this afternoon about that, that for every behavior or outcome that has a pattern, there's a root. Now in a human, it's a subconscious root. It's those beliefs, values, pain, trauma, learning, hopes, dreams that drive us. And so we often want to make the changes here, but changes need to actually happen at a DNA level.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And as leaders, our biggest challenge is to understand why the behavior exists and get to the root. Now, when you understand why someone is perpetually late and you just take the time to ask why, why are you late? And do not react as a leader at the lateness.

[A]

React at the driver.

[B]

At the driver, sure. And you will learn so much about why team buildings for three days don't work and why leadership is actually more of a skill that needs to be harnessed than a capacity for growth or profitability.

[A]

So good skill. Let's download that. Because you said so much there, you spoke about DNA, you spoke about unconscious competence, you spoke about excellence, and then you spoke about root. Right. So I just want to understand these. When you talk about roots as a person who manages people, which people manage businesses, which businesses manage other people, there's like a downstream effect. Right. So if I'm to look at the number of people I have an influence over, how do I even begin to assess what their roots are?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's a great question. So we've put together a framework. It's a tested, tried, trialed framework, probably a 30 year old framework. And really what it does, we call them the pillars. And it really helps leaders be able to identify a behavior and then pull it to the root so you can address the root. And I'm going to give you six of them right now.

[A]

Go for it.

[B]

The first one is time and space. Today, Sunday, you and I are sitting and talking on a Sunday afternoon. We've created time and space to create value.

[A]

Got you.

[B]

We had a coffee earlier. We created time and space to get to this place where we can actually have a conversation that adds value.

[A]

So good.

[B]

So time and space is critical. This belief of go, go, go, go, go. No, no, that doesn't serve you all the time.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

The quality behind the prep work, the relational gearing, there's time and space that's needed to slow down so you can speed up.

[A]

So good.

[B]

Thank you for seeing.

[A]

So good.

[B]

And so time and space is a pillar in any relationship. You know, you can't get to know your kids if you don't create time and space. You can't. You and I would never be sitting in this room if we didn't have time and space.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Time and space.

[A]

I love what you're saying because so many people don't know they have the permission to create that. In fact, what people do is they slot themselves into things happening in their lives rather than design their lives so that the things they want to happen happen. That's so good.

[B]

And you see, time and space is counterintuitive because it feels slow. And if you're leading from a place of fight or flight, time and space is dangerous.

[A]

Feels like a waste of time.

[B]

Feels like a waste of time.

[A]

So good.

[B]

So time and space is slow and it needs. It's. It's. It needs. It's a process that needs to happen. And if you. If you. If you're anxious or you're just looking for results, that doesn't feel right to you.

[A]

Yo, Yo. Sean, I don't think you understand. There's somebody you have just freed with that. Yeah. This is some, I think, particularly important for. Let me speak personally now. Right. Like, there is a stage you get to where if you move in haste again, you will destroy what you have built.

[B]

That is so good. Oh, yes.

[A]

So there's like a, you know, there's the whole, like, quit planning. Just do it. Yeah. That works for a season. And then there's a place you get to where if you do that, you will destroy what you've built. And so it's almost. If you've got to unlearn the habit of quick fire, draw, and you've actually, like a sniper now. You've got to take your time. You've got to estimate, and you've got to zone in and hone in. You've got to read the elements so that when you do pull the trigger, it's a huge. It hits the target. Yeah.

[B]

If you pull the trigger again and again and again, you should get the same outcome.

[A]

You should hit the same place with the same outcome. That repeatability thing.

[B]

Repeatability.

[A]

Oh, man.

[B]

Repeatability.

[A]

In my business, that's what they pay you for.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is what a lot of people don't understand. Like, in my business, it's all about repeatability.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

It's. Can I plug you into something? And the Outcome is what it was last time. Okay, so. So the first one's time and space, Right.

[B]

Second one is what we call a unique economic value proposition. Okay, your UE vp.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And my partner Errol says it like this. What do you do that the unborn, the living and the dead will never do better than you?

[A]

Oh, wow. So good.

[B]

Too many of us go to the grave not knowing what's our uevp. And that economic means that your gifting should provide for you financially.

[A]

So good.

[B]

It's good there's none of this where. No, no, no, you know, you're great at that. But go do a business degree because you need to make money. If you know what your unique economic value proposition is, you'll be able to step into your gift and it will give you an economic return. And so inside of our teams, we need to know what the uniqueness is. And as a business, you need to position yourself knowing, what do I do? What does the key do that the dead, the living and the unborn will never do better than you?

[A]

That is so good. So that means the leader has to spend time uncovering the UE VPs of the people they lead.

[B]

Correct. And that means time and space, because you've got to spend time understanding your people. And if they're a fit or not, that's good. Because sometimes it's not a fit, and that's also okay. They're a fit somewhere else.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

So you do someone a disservice by trying to put them into a system where their value proposition doesn't fit.

[A]

That's so good.

[B]

A disservice to them and a disservice to the business.

[A]

What's the third?

[B]

The third one is my favorite, personal mastery.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And this one is just about, if I got to put it in a simple term, wuzine. Control yourself. Master your emotions. Master what you eat. Master what you consume visually and otherwise. Master how you respond. Master yourself. The degree to which you master yourself is the degree to which you'll have permission to serve others. You got no business serving people in an area that you have yourself had not mastered. If you are reactive and bleeding all over people that didn't catch you, you got no business leading. Master yourself. So personal mastery is about really getting a handle on who you are, what drives you, how you can get better. Consistently breaking those glass ceilings above your own head, managing your trauma, managing yourself. Recognizing that feedback's your friend. And don't be scared to face yourself. Don't be scared to face yourself. Look at yourself and say, hey, I gotta get better there.

[A]

Why is that such a controversial message? Master yourself? I mean, as you said it, part of me felt offended.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

No, but I think.

[B]

Tell me why.

[A]

Well, I think that that would be the response of. Maybe offended is not the right word, but my. I think it would be the response of most people in leadership if you said to them, spend time mastering you, because it's just so much easier to master the thing I'm doing. Do you know what I mean?

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

I run a car wash. Can I just master my car wash? Why are you telling me I need to master my habits now?

[B]

And really, the truth is, the quality of that car wash is a direct mirror of what's going on in your internal world.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

So that's why you're mastering yourself.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

Because everything that's in your world right now is simply a mirror. Your manifestation in your world is just a mirror saying, hey, that's the quality of world, Sean.

[A]

It's so good.

[B]

So if you want to get better, then just master yourself.

[A]

So if you're watching this and you don't like where you are, before you fix where you are, fix who you are. Start with the self. Yeah, that's good.

[B]

Yeah. Lead from within.

[A]

Why is that your favorite?

[B]

That's a good question. And probably because it's the one that I have the most control over, and I've really seen it add value to my life.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I've had to make major changes over the last many years.

[A]

Sure, sure.

[B]

Every time I get stuck foreseeing the business and I go in, I'll get a breakthrough. But that in. Is not necessarily fun. You know, it's humility, vulnerability, facing your pain, learning discipline. 5am mornings. Saying no when you want to say yes. Saying yes when you want to say no. Not buying that when you really want to. It's discipline. It's a narrow road. And so for me, it's been the greatest privilege to have even understood the power of mastering yourself.

[A]

I had a conversation with a friend of mine, Mike Rador, and he has this, like, incredible journey that he talks about. You know, he. At a point in time in his life, very successful entrepreneur, sells his business for $400 million, exits the business, and then finds himself addicted to things you shouldn't be addicted to. Trying to fill the void.

[B]

Yeah, this is good.

[A]

What a lot of us entrepreneurs do is we make our businesses part of our identity. And it's like. Anyway, so he. He. He said to me the other day, we were chatting. He said, so you were talking about discipline? He says, he said. He was talking about how important discipline is. And then he said it was the first time I'd heard somebody say it like this. And it made sense. He said, every decision you make is a choice between the higher self and the lower self. And he says, and the problem is many people have chosen the lower self so much, they don't even know the higher self is available.

[B]

So good, right? Yeah. And the operative word there is chosen.

[A]

Chosen. And so he was saying what happens is you get into, like this doom loop of lower self decisions.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Isn't that good?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I had goosebumps when he's.

[B]

Yeah, I'm taking that one.

[A]

He was like, so you know you shouldn't eat that, but you eat it. And you know you shouldn't do that and you do it. And you know you shouldn't be in that friendship, but you are. And you and you. And so what happens is you're in this doom loop. And then he says, reality for many people is nothing more than a series of doom loops stitched together by time. And so when people say, I don't like my life or I don't like my reality, what they mean is, I don't like the doom loop, which is a function of the decisions. And so he said for a lot of the work he does, he works exclusively with men who run businesses that are, I think, eight figures, because that's his, like, niche. And he's like, the first place we start at is we create an avatar of the higher self.

[B]

Right. That's really good.

[A]

So that when you get to those stage gates, you gotta make those decisions. You go, what would the higher Sean do?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like, what would the higher Vusi do? How would they approach this conversation? How would they approach that meeting? How would they approach this opportunity to develop a person? And when he said it like that, I was just like, that's really good. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

You know that higher self vision does. It creates cognitive dissonance in the system.

[A]

Explain that.

[B]

So what happens is when you see something that doesn't match your internal picture at this point in time, it creates tension. And so if you're serious about what you're doing and you're wanting to grow, that is just what we call creating intentional tension in your system.

[A]

So good.

[B]

That says, hey, I'm calling you up.

[A]

Yeah, fix this.

[B]

Yes, fix it. And the, remember, distance will only resolve to the most dominant. So if you really don't want to push through that pain you'll just make an excuse and go back to your lower self. But if you. If you are serious, you will push through everything that needs to happen to. To get to that. To that new place or that new self, whatever that you want to said differently.

[A]

The easier road will always feel like the easier decision. Right, Right. The lower aid will feel like the

[B]

easier decision because natural.

[A]

Oh, right. Which is what you mean by. It'll default to dominance for self sabotage. So good, Sean.

[B]

Self sabotage. It's hectic and so real, you know, it's good.

[A]

What's the fourth?

[B]

I'm trying to put them in orders here. So the fourth one would be relationship arrangements.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Every relationship has an arrangement, spoken or unspoken. I know that if I do this, the next person will respond like this. You know, children have these unconscious relationships where they know, I'm not going to go to dad for that. I'm going to go to my mom for that. It's the best. There's a best way to do that, you know? Yeah. My kids know. I'll be like, yeah, ask your father. No. Oh, okay. Like, why are you asking me? You know, because we know. We know the arrangement there. So there's this unconscious kind of arrangement that happens, you know, that's good. And so in a leadership context, it's can I bring my full self to the table here without the person that has more quote, unquote power over me causing me to be in some sort of danger? How transparent can I be here? How safe I am? Am I? And that's really relationship arrangements. So what you're wanting to do in that space as a. As a driver of a system that is healthy is you wanting to really question that and ask those questions. So what I do with my team is I just say, tell me what you need to say. The only prerequisite is be respectful.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

But give me the feedback.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

Because I don't want to have any unconscious presumptions here of what you think you can and cannot do or how safe you are or are not. So let's talk about this. Let's see what you are presuming and let's have a conversation so that we can clear up the relationship arrangement so that these flow.

[A]

That's so good. Shock.

[B]

There's no friction here.

[A]

That's so good.

[B]

So that's a critical thing. And every relationship has that. And unless you surface it, what you don't declare has power over you. It's just like taking a piece of cheese and putting in A corner, it will rot. Anything that's hidden has power over you. The minute you expose it, you can deal with it. Leadership is about calling the unconscious to the conscious so that we can see what's really going on.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And save ourselves time.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Get to the real work.

[A]

That is hard. What you don't declare has power over you.

[B]

It's like even think, just, let's go to human aspect trauma. The minute you say this happened and you confess that you're free. Confession is for healing. That's a whole different conversation.

[A]

Of course. In other words, you're free of the grip, even though you've still got a path to healing. Absolutely. The effect it's had on your life, but now you. It doesn't own you. You own it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And you can say which way it goes. So it doesn't have power over you.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So these drivers are all about raising the invisible to visible, the unconscious to conscious.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

When you understand that there's a pattern, let's say there's a pattern of dysfunction happening in a relationship. You've got to get to the driver. That's what's really going on here. Not easy.

[A]

Why? Why is that difficult? Why is. Why is surfacing things we're hiding so difficult? Is there maybe. Let me ask the question this way. Is it the case that we struggle to surface things because then we would have to face who or what those things say we are? Is that the case? Why do we struggle to surface?

[B]

I would say yes and no. Okay, so vulnerability in my definition is voluntary self disclosure of one's weakest self.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

Voluntary self disclosure.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

So now when the way that you see the world is the way that your body perceives the world as safe. If your bank account, you know is 10 bar, that's safe. The minute you get to 8 bar, it's unsafe, you create it. Back to 10 bar, you get to 15 bars, that's unsafe. If you haven't predicted that and created that. And then you'll spend that 5 bars to get back to 10 bar. So it's all about safety. It doesn't matter what it is. The body needs safety. That's so good.

[A]

That is so good.

[B]

So now when you start nursing, open up. It's not about whether I want to heal or not. It's about whether I'm safe or not. And so when we start to say, hey, let's really look at this and call it, the body feels unsafe. And one of the most precious gifts that I have allowed myself to experience is pressing into A feeling that is unsafe. Knowing I'm going to be safe after bed. So it feels unsafe. But that's just the body's way of saying, hey, you're stepping outside of your comfort zone. You're moving past what I know to be true. Even though it's good for you, the body doesn't care. The body just wants safety.

[A]

It's good. So how did you know to step into it?

[B]

So when I learned about. I did a lot of studying in neuroscience. I learned about how the brain works, how the body works. I've read some great books. The body keeps school. There's some great books out there.

[A]

Keep, scroll, keep store.

[B]

I mean, school. It's just great stuff. And I begin to feel in my own system. All right, why am I out of place? Okay, I'm out of place because X, Y, and Z. So I begin to apply a lot of the learning to myself. First, to my own experiences. And why am I doing that? I mean, at least once a month, I ask myself, why am I doing that? Why am I responding that way? Why is that pattern that I don't like repeating itself, repeating itself? And then I have to go in, and you just got to ask the hard questions.

[A]

How do you not crucify yourself?

[B]

That's a very good question. So let's, let's, you know, if I give you a visual, you get, you know, three circles. It's how we live our lives. The first one is, who are you? Second one is, why do you exist? The third one is where you're going if I go back in who are you's? Identity, purpose, vision. So we live our lives from identity. So you will crucify yourself if at an identity level there's no truth. At an identity level, you're living from an old framework. Like what your mom said, you're not good enough. What your dad said you broke. You're this, you're that. You have to be true to your identity. So if you're crucifying yourself, you've got to check that there is an identity that is a lie that you're living from.

[A]

I hear you.

[B]

And when you are being kind to yourself, it's because you're living from an identity that is truth.

[A]

Sure. That's very hard to do though, right? Because I would have to be aware of what those identities are in the first place and then aware of what the source of those are.

[B]

And that takes time and space.

[A]

It takes a lot of time and space, but it also takes a lot of the thing you mentioned earlier, which is going into the place I don't want to go to.

[B]

Voluntary self disclosure.

[A]

Yeah, that's. That's a lot.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a lot. You know, Vusi, some of the work I've done, when I started to, you know, open up just to myself. Not even, not even nobody there. I've had seasons of nausea. My body will go into nausea because of the level that I am disclosing. To yourself, to myself. Nausea. And so this is the thing about this process. You know, you lead from a place of who you are. You know, you don't show up in these beautiful offices and then you become vousi. You are Vousi. 100 this morning when you're brushing your teeth, that's who you are.

[A]

100.

[B]

Right. And when someone pokes your beer, what comes out? That's who you are.

[A]

That's so good.

[B]

Right. So who you are is who you are. So you might as well get better at being. Because you can only pretend for so long. The body can only stay in a place of pretense. And I've got it together for so long. Let the crisis hit, then you know who you are.

[A]

And I think the. The major theme there is those small cracks. Right. When you grow in influence and grow in leadership, society has a way of blasting a spotlight on you. And some people think the spotlight is the literal spotlight. But if I work in a large company and I'm a gm, in fact, let me give you an example. On Friday, I had a fellow who came to my office and known him for years, maybe 20 years. And at. He's one of the general managers at the power utility in the country. And. And he left. So we're having a conversation, you know, he's doing other things now, and he's consulting for companies, etc, and. And so his time as GM at the power utility comes up. That's when I'd met him. So I said to him, you know, how were those days? He said, man, it felt like having a spotlight on you, but the light is on. 10,000.

[B]

Yeah, no problem.

[A]

You know, And I'd never thought that, even though in the public eye he's just a guy, but in his professional life, the spotlight's like this because of the weight of the decisions he's got to make.

[B]

Yeah, I was just gonna say the weight. Can you carry the weight of the bless?

[A]

And then. So there's the weight and then there's the politics.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's not like if you.

[B]

Different story.

[A]

If you don't win, there is it's inconsequential. You know, there are people waiting for him not to win so that they can go, see, see, told you. Told you. He doesn't deserve this job. Right. Because organizations are architected as pyramids. Right. The further up you go, the fewer the roles and more people want those roles. And it's very competitive.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So if, if you have a role that I want, I don't perceive that I need to get better to get the role I perceive you've got to go. Exactly.

[B]

That's a dangerous game. And this is where we lose the plot 100%.

[A]

And he was like, that's, he said to me, that's the culture. Guys don't wait to get better. They wait for you to cock up, then they want the job. And so he was like, it just felt like be under the spotlight. And when he said it, I was like, wow, I had never thought that you can just be a general manager.

[B]

Yeah. With that amount of pressure.

[A]

That amount.

[B]

And you know, it's just, it's relative. Hey, everyone's facing some level of pressure. Wherever you are, wherever you leading, there's a level of somebody's looking at me, you know, And I go right down to. Even if you're a housewife at home, somebody's looking at you. Somebody's watching you. Little eyes.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

But those little eyes are the next generation.

[A]

I love that. What's the fifth?

[B]

The fifth one is structured process.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

Now we all know this. This is the one we all get, right? Because it's the only one that you can see, touch, taste or smell, Right? It's your systems. How sharper. Your systems. How sharper. How much clarity sits in your systems. Are your systems serving you all? What happens is the systems are there for so long, we start serving the systems, we actually forget that we are in control of the systems. So the structured process says, test the rigor of your systems.

[A]

That's so good.

[B]

And stop letting them control you. If a rule is not working, change it. And this is where we get it all wrong. And I've worked in multiple large corporates and those systems are there. And then you stress test the system and you say, but who made the rule? No, but you can't, you can't change that rule. Why? Because it's always been there. Is it serving you?

[A]

Yes, yes, yes.

[B]

But we can't change it. Okay. Okay, guys, well, we're going to just stay stuck here. We're going to be back here next year because the structured process is no longer Serving us.

[A]

That's so good. That's so good.

[B]

So you guys test your structured process.

[A]

I knew this entrepreneur, he created, you know, Sorbet.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The founder of Sorbet. So one time he says to me, he and I are backstage speaking at a conference and he said, I'm talking to him about, like, you know, how he built the business and the innovations and the many things, and now I think they're partly owned by clicks. He says to me one of the major changes he had to make was training his customer service people that it's customer service, not system service. And so he says, here's what actually happened. He says he had bought something, I think, from one of the retailers and he needed to return it. So he went. And then when he got there, he didn't have a slip or something. And the person said, well, I can't help you. You don't have a slip. And then he took the thing. He says, but it still has your barcode.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So surely if you scan the barcode, it'll pick up on your system. When I bought, and the person was like, no, I need a receipt, otherwise I can't help you, you know? And so he says, he MAKES a FEW NOISE Then the shift manager came. Then eventually the branch manager came. The branch manager's like, oh, yeah, we could do this there, get the thing done. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So he tells the story to go, why do we have to escalate things that just need common sense. But I think to your point, what happens is many people don't know they have the permission to get the thing done. Right. Not just to get the thing done.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Yes. So that's a culture issue. We'll maybe touch on that a bit later. But culture, how agile is your culture? How much permission do your people feel in your culture? You know, and culture, really, when the rubber hits the road, culture is an asset. That's. That's the thing that's driving your results, whether you like it or not. And if somebody feels stuck at the front, front facing and saying, can't do it, therein lies one of your biggest challenges as a leader is how do

[A]

you give that person the sense of ownership and agency that you can do it?

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Because that's really what it comes down to. Do they feel they have a sense of ownership and agency?

[B]

That agency is very important.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Hard to do, though, if you are a boss and not a leader.

[B]

Yeah, no, that's a whole different ball game, you know, where you, you start unpacking boss and leader. Let's finish the six pillars first. The boss and leader thing, we could talk for days on that, Vosi. Because that is something that really is a systemic issue that needs to be changed.

[A]

I get you. What's the sixth?

[B]

The sixth one is purpose. Let me ask you a question. You've got three kids. What's the one question they asked you between from the time they could Talk till about 7, 8? They asked you one question. What was it?

[A]

That's a hard. I don't know.

[B]

Think about it. It's one word.

[A]

One word. The question is one word. Got me?

[B]

See, Vusi wasn't paying attention to why.

[A]

Usually hits at three years old. Yeah, don't do that. Why? Yeah, because that's going to happen.

[B]

And, and so, you know, you think about why. Do they ask us why? Well, they ask us why because as human beings we are intrinsically geared. And I say intrinsic. No one teaches you this. To understand the moral reason of why, you must do something right? So I do this often now. I'll go into boardrooms and say, give me a second, I'm just going to ask your receptionist why she's here. And they'll be like, why are you gonna ask? And I just want to ask her why she's here. And what do you think was. If I go down and I run down to the reception and I say to the receptionist, why are you here? What do you think? She says to me? And as I promise I won't tell

[A]

your boss, it's my job. I'm here to make money. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

I'm just so pleased. And herein lies our problem, right? Money is a poor, poor driver.

[A]

That's so good. So good. And yet. Sorry, the leaders are walking past that receptionist every day and haven't found the words to articulate so she understands. Oh, that's so good.

[B]

My job here is finished. You understand?

[A]

So good.

[B]

So, so, so. Herein lies the biggest driver of discretionary energy is when someone knows why that's so good. Why are they in this organization? Why they must get up in the morning, why they must do the hard stuff. All of those good things come with purpose.

[A]

So good.

[B]

So purpose is a fundamental pillar for a healthy ecosystem. Know your own purpose now. Why did God give you breath, Fousey? Now why you working on a Sunday afternoon? No, you're why. And so when we stress test the health of an ecosystem and why people, you know, self sabotage and why change is such a big, hard, hairy thing to do, it's because oftentimes we are paying attention to the symptoms and not the recourse.

[A]

So. Good. The difficulty, of course, is that you and I are having a conversation which I felt was necessary to have because I know the work you do and how important this work is for leaders. The catch 22, though, is that most leaders don't even know this work is necessary. So I would have had to have been at a point where I was seeking answers to certain questions to then go, I actually need to talk to somebody about this. I'm willing to bet the overwhelming majority of people who are in management or leadership positions watching our conversation are not even aware that they should be seeking answers to these questions. Right. And that goes back to this boss versus leader thing, because we are trained to know how to instruct. So we know how to instruct. Our management training teaches us. How do you instruct? It teaches us the dogmatic process you follow so that people move within the framework. Yeah. There's not so much work done to teach us how to inspire because it's painful. It's bloody painful, and it's long. It means I've got to give a shit about you.

[B]

Correct?

[A]

No, I pay you. Take a job.

[B]

Yeah, please make it go away. But, you know, that's La La Land. And the generation that's coming up, not the millennials, the Gen Zs, they're looking for purpose driven work. They, they were raised with, they had options. You know, hey, they don't really, really need to be in a job. In our generation, we were hungry, okay? We had to take that square. You know, there was no options here. So whatever the boss was doing, you, you were okay with it because, you know, your, your mandate here was Survival 100.

[A]

I did a, I did an interview on, I did a podcast interview with David. Really smart guy, South African guy, solid asset. Known him for maybe 20 years, if not more. At 25, actually. So he says to me, he asks me a question about, you know, what do you do if you're a young person, you can't get a job? And I said, well, far be it for me to say, I think everybody's experiences are unique. I can talk about my own journey. And I said, well, I kind of volunteered myself into a job because there weren't any available. And I said, you know what's funny is people meet you. People are strange. They meet you where you are and they think that's where your life started.

[B]

That's really good.

[A]

Yeah. So some years ago, I met Michael Phelps. Right? When I met him, he was the most Decorated Olympic athlete in the history of the Olympics of all time is still okay. But that's not where he started.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[A]

So if I just meet Michael and I go, oh, this guy's a decorated Olympian. I miss the story behind why he's a decorator. Does that make sense?

[B]

That's so good.

[A]

So, so anyway, so he asked me this question. I said, I'll tell you a story. It's a true story. Fifteen years old, I was living, as one does with my mom at the time in Benoni. And there was a mall that had just been built in Benoni called Lakeside Mall. The mall's still there. And you know, it was tough economically. And so mom was like, you need to go get a job. See if you can get like a part time job or something like this. And she made me write my cv, which one does? And I'll never forget I spelled leadership positions as leadership possessions.

[B]

Oh, shame. Hey, it was rough.

[A]

It was tough. These young people were chipped. You don't understand.

[B]

You were looking.

[A]

We didn't have churchy, pt, Grammy, none of that shit.

[B]

No, there was a dictionary.

[A]

There was. Yeah, there was the Webster's. Do you remember that whole. On Microsoft, you had that clipper looking thing with the eyes on it, it looked like the paper clipper and it would walk around your document. In a sense that I grew up in the era, Sean, when if you had a cv, you had a cover page to your CV and the COVID page had borders.

[B]

That was a severe situation. And if you could print that in color, you were styling.

[A]

You get me? You get me? So anyway, so I've got like this, I've got my CV in my little envelopes as a true story. I walked the length and breadth of all of Lakeside Mall looking for a job. Every single store went in. Hello, ma', am, how are you? My name is so and so. I'm looking for work. I didn't know at the time that a lot of the people who work in these stores are hired by like labor brokers. So even the store doesn't hire. They had a labor broker who brought the talent in. I didn't know this. I went and dropped. I'm sure someone today can bail me out by showing an image of that cv, right? And it showed everywhere where I was a prefect and I was a deputy head boy and all of that, you know. Cause I was looking for the job. And so the point I was making to him was when I started working, the very first place I started working, I effectively volunteered myself into A job working for your own. I was like, let me deliver and if you see what I can do, then you'll give me the gig. Now the reason that's important is because to your point, so when I started working, I was hungry because my universe of opportunity was this big. It meant that the power dynamics between me and my employer were in the hands of the employer, not me. So I had to be in the job and do everything I could to stay in the job, keep the job and just make no trouble, Right? Yeah. But for younger people, they go on fiverr, they're going upwork, they go on LinkedIn jobs. They, you know, they can do some part time thing. They can. And by the way, you know, they don't even mind having two, three jobs at the same time. You know, one is two days, the other one is three days. You know, they live in this like fluid world.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And yet we as leaders still think we can use those rules to manage this crowd.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it ain't working so good.

[B]

The structured process has changed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you know, there's some fundamentals, Vusi, that just are timeless. So human beings are intrinsically driven to do good work if four things are in place. Purpose, belonging, growth, and then reward and recognition, in that order.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

So if leaders understand that our job now, and this is the thing about leadership today, it really is about understanding human behavior. Because the byproduct then is the work gets done. And if you understand human behavior, then you can, you can frame your culture and put those nuances in so that humans feel invited and then serve as they need to. And the structured process is not serving the structured process, is serving them. They are not now serving the structured process. Because the minute you feel like you're serving a process, you, human beings don't take hold of what they're told. The minute we don't have choice, we push back. Pushback looks like procrastination, sloppy work, creative avoidance, all those things. Pushback is not. I don't want to do this. Pushback is, I'm going to give you just what you need to get to shut you up.

[A]

No more and no more.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

I never thought of that.

[B]

So if any environment feels stifled and the leaders are thinking that they're in control, you need to understand you're getting 10% of that person's headspace and you're paying for 100. So you, you, you've got dead bodies on the floor right now and they're just looking at you, but there's no value.

[A]

Why is that. Say that again. Why did that. Why would there be this pushback?

[B]

Pushback is in any shape or form where a human being feels controlled.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah. So if a human being feels controlled in any shape or form, they will push back. So, you know, when I was. My kids were little, we did a parenting course, and they said, if your kids are throwing a tantrum, just give them a choice. So I'd go, kona, are you getting in the bath, or is mom putting you in the bath? The end result is mine. You get to choose how. And he'd be like, I get in the bath. I was like, great. Get in the bath. So if you understand that dynamic as a leader, you understand how you can put those nuances into the system to serve everybody, not just yourself.

[A]

So good.

[B]

But takes time.

[A]

It's good.

[B]

Takes time.

[A]

So let's. Let's. Let's mature this conversation. So we've spoken about these six factors that are important for the hygiene of an ecosystem and how you can optimize how your people perform. Yeah, let's. Let's go. Let's dig a little bit further now. So I'm a leader watching this conversation, and I have a team of people who I know can do better than they are doing. I just know it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I also know that I inherited the current team that I've got. So some of them are people I found in these jobs. Right. But I want to. I want them to do the best work that they can.

[B]

So good do.

[A]

What do I need to do?

[B]

Let's start with your own intent. Be sure that when the rubber hits the road, that's really what you want.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that is not what you're saying you want for a specific outcome. So there's always this gap between intent and you and I had this chat and impact. So you're a leader with the greatest of intent. Be sure that that intent is pure, that you are for them. Start there. And I learned this 11 years ago. I did a video of myself on the day that I learned this fusi. And what happened was I. And I tell the story. I was at a keynote that actually told the story. I was running behind my husband. We were jogging five o' clock in the morning, and I was having a moan to myself in that moment about various things that were not being done my way. I'm running behind him, and I'm thinking, you know, all sorts of things. And then the next minute I just hear, sean, nothing will change in your world until you can learn to serve and to give without expecting Nothing in return.

[A]

Sure, sure.

[B]

And I was stopped dead in my tracks when I realized that I was doing things for a selfish outcome.

[A]

I get it.

[B]

And so what happens, it breeds entitlement.

[A]

I get it.

[B]

Because when you, when, when the outcome is not coming, it will reveal the intent.

[A]

You get frustrated, right?

[B]

You get frustrated.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But then what I did in that moment, I thought, where else am I doing that? And I had a conversation with my team and one of the ladies said, well, you. You kind of get the feeling that, you know, it's kind of like shape up or ship out vibe. I said, I give that feeling. She's like, yeah, for me, it feels like if. If we don't toe the line here, we're out. I said, okay. My son, who was 8 at the time, I said to him, hey, Connor, give mummy some feedback. He said, hey, mum. You. Everyone must be here. And if people aren't here, you don't like them. That's what he said to me. I was just like, hi to remain. I came out that week with a bloody nose from feedback. So I want to circle back to your question around this leader. Check your intent. People don't catch what you say. People catch who you are.

[A]

That's so good. That's so good.

[B]

So as leaders, you know, we can play and talk a good game, but who are you? They catch who you are. All right, so let's start then. And then, of course, now you've got the greatest of intent. You realize your intent is pure. There's this now gap between what you set out to do and what does and what manifests, what happens.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And it's in this gap that the magic happens. As a leader.

[A]

Right?

[B]

So if you've got the greatest of intent, there is a. A journey where you need to walk with tools, resources, the personal masteries. Time is this stuff that you got to put into this gap that closes it.

[A]

I'm with you.

[B]

The more that you are strategic, scientific, and intentional about the journey, it's not wishy washy. Whatever. It needs to be a process that you walk intentionally, that you measure, that you track, that you understand. What are the levers that you need to pull to get the outcome that you want. That's where the magic happens. That's where the real work of leadership happens. So good is closing the gap between your intent and your impact.

[A]

That's good. That's good. It's good. I mean, hard to do, but good. So you had this morning jog and then this happened and you didn't immediately have the tool set to do it. Right.

[B]

No, no, no. So what happened was. If I may, I don't know if it was the morning run or what happened, but by the time I got back to the gate, I pulled a hamstring.

[A]

I didn't actually pull it, I don't

[B]

know but it was sore and so. And I'll show you the video some. At some point in time I. I got on my bed licking my wounds and I put my MacBook in front of me and I said I thought same. I've just seen something about myself. It's ugly. My drivers are self centered in nature. I want an outcome that serves me and I will do and be and say anything to get that to get the result.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So right now as we sitting here, this is voluntary self disclosure.

[A]

Yep, I get you.

[B]

And so in that moment I realized there's work to be done here. I don't value people. I value outcomes.

[A]

Sure, guilty get you.

[B]

I don't. I'll drop you at the drop of a hat if it, if you in the slightest shape or form, compromise, compromise my outcome. My husband felt it, my children felt it. Everyone around, we felt it. That was 11 years ago.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I have cried more in the last 11 years than I did the the years before because I was so blind, I couldn't care. Damn. I was living my best life. A performer. That's the way it's, you know, it's got to be done. People need to show up. But remember now, I was treating who like that? First and foremost, yourself, myself. So I had to do like a proper identity shift.

[A]

The prison very few people speak about. It's not the ones we put others in, it's the ones we put ourselves in. You know, people don't tell you about even a simple thing. Like last night, family and I were watching a movie as we took the day and we're just like, we're just going to spend some time as a family. So we're watching this movie on Netflix and the storyline is a young lady who when she was younger was very naughty. And she ended up setting fire to somebody's house and people died and she was sent to juvenile facility. But because she was underage, the record was not expunged, but it was sealed and she was given a new identity.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

So she grows up and she lives this new identity. Except in the house she set on fire. She killed three people. A man, his wife and a child. But they had two children. The one child was alive, so the child who lived, looked for her, and then volunteered herself as a babysitter into her home and wreaked havoc. And the dissonance you see in the scene where she realizes, hold on, this person is visiting is. Is my past visiting me.

[B]

That gives you the shivers.

[A]

And the hardest part was, so she'd moved on. She's now married, she's got children. She hadn't told her husband who she was.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So before she can come clean to the person who is endangering her husband and the children, she's got to come

[B]

clean to her husband.

[A]

She's got to come clean to the husband and say, this is a lot. My name is kind of not so and so. I gotta be honest, as I was watching this, I was like, this is some white people. So my husband said, no black person or an ass. Yeah.

[B]

When we kill, we kill for real.

[A]

First of all, if you're black, people definitely know who you are. I don't know how black people do it, but you can't be black out of nowhere and just make up an identity.

[B]

Maybe they'll be like, oh, no, you are so and so, Stan. There's always somebody from the township who was, I know this person.

[A]

But you could be running for president.

[B]

They're like, you know this. And I know three generations. Clan is lame.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They even. They even know your clan now. Like, this is some white people shit. No way. But the point is, yeah, just like you can just see this moment of it just hits her where she goes, oh, no, I thought I had buried this person, but actually I have not. And so I say that only to make the point that what we don't

[B]

declare has power over it all.

[A]

Tell you, and it is. The worst prison to live in is the prison of a lie that you. You invented. And now you must live into it. It's hard work every day, every day so hard to liberate others. Right. When you yourself aren't. Aren't liberated.

[B]

Fully liberated yourself.

[A]

Sure. 11 years of crying to let go of that lie. Huh?

[B]

There's a story.

[A]

Sorry. Before you, I did a keynote in Atlanta, beginning of the year, and I saw the company that invited me to do this keynote actually recently posted the video of this particular section of my keynote and they posted it with the caption, do you agree? Share your comment and what I said was, leadership is a mirror. And so the reason people struggle to go from being a boss to a leader is because people struggle to go from holding a glass to holding a mirror.

[B]

Yeah, this is that Is so good. I love that. That's exactly it, right? It's exactly it. Yeah.

[A]

Because glass is transparent. I see you. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Leader is. I see me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so. And I was saying to them, you. You. You won't. You can't get to the point of leading unless you uncover your demons first. And too few of us are just willing to do the work of uncovering those demons, of understanding the traumas that we suffer and how those traumas infer how we show up from people. Right. One of mine had been that I infer or inferred. But I inferred respect based on quality of work.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Okay. So if you don't give me your best quality of work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It isn't because you might be going through stuff. It's because you don't respect me, which means I now become offended rather than go, hey, man, your work seems to

[B]

be just really understandable.

[A]

Just understand what the story.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, you could be having personal problems when I'm not there. I mean. No, you must. You must do your best, because otherwise you're disrespecting me.

[B]

Yeah. And that's because you do your best. Right. And that's because you respect yourself. And so it's just a mirror.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so then the question became, but hold on. Why is my respective self contingent upon how I work?

[B]

Therein lies your work. Good luck. I can support you if you need. Anyhow, start a group. Start a support group.

[A]

Support group.

[B]

As to why I only respect myself when I produce good work.

[A]

Here's the crazy thing, though, Sean. The world rewards you for that.

[B]

No, that's the problem.

[A]

Like, the world goes, oh, yeah, he's phenomenal. You know, they give you the applause.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yet to your point, even though the fruit is sweet, the root is poisoned.

[B]

Yeah. Intent.

[A]

So good.

[B]

Check the intent of your heart. And you know, I don't believe. Unless you are narcissistic and have a mental problem, I don't believe. And I'm yet to see anybody wake up in the morning a leader with ill intent to cause harm.

[A]

No. No. Not unless you're sick.

[B]

Yes, you must be sick. And so then the question begs, okay, so if that be the case, why is the root rotten?

[A]

Yeah, it's good. That's good.

[B]

Because sometimes you didn't rot your root, but now you are responsible for the fruit.

[A]

It's so good. It's not your fault, but we understand. Yeah.

[B]

Lick your wounds. Go fix your problems.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So leadership is also about high accountability.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You got to take Full ownership for yourself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There is no space for blame game.

[A]

So good.

[B]

As a leader, you have got zero privilege of blaming anybody for the results in your ecosystem.

[A]

So good.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

You know, one of the things I'm realizing about this conversation and it just hit me now is that actually amongst the worst attributions we give to leaders is position. Because I just realized now that position is a laggard. So you lead long before you're given a position to lead. Does that make sense?

[B]

It's so important, you know, if we can teach our children anything. Start with what you have, where you are, and do it. Don't wait for the approval of man. Don't wait for the accolades. Don't wait for the limelight.

[A]

Get going, get going. Yeah, that's good. That's good. Because we. We do live in a society that loves the positions.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Loves the rewards. Loves the. Loves the. But the truth is it happens before that, right?

[B]

Yeah. And those things are not bad.

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

If they are in their correct place in the sequence.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Right where the. Where they sit. They need to sit in a space that is healthy. But if it's in the wrong place and it's the focus, it can really, really create damage.

[A]

Talk to me about, and I'm cognizant of how we've woven this conversation. But I'll ask the question I'm curious about. So who's Sean? So how does Sean end up working with organizations and leaders? Maybe let me ask the question this way. The work you do is not the work that came with the guidance counselor at school who said, oh, by the way. Yeah, exactly. You know, it says there's the lawyer, the nurse, the teacher, the accountant. So how did you find yourself here?

[B]

Yeah, that's a great question. So, you know, inner vows can serve you for a season. So all due respect to my parents, I know this is recorded, but I was sent to boarding school at five years old.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I went to north of six different schools.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I know what it's like to be hungry. I know what it's like to be in an environment that is not safe for you.

[A]

Gotcha.

[B]

And I was the person that every time I was unhappy with my circumstance, I would say, I will never allow this to happen to my children.

[A]

Got you. Gotcha.

[B]

I will never repeat this. As soon as I'm on my feet, I will do better. You know, right down to. I mean, a funny story is. I mean, do you remember boarding school days? Right. They used to give us those green sunlight bars. I mean that is should be illegal to make someone bath with a green sunlight bar. Okay. It stains everything. It stinks. And, and, and look, you know, I was raised in the apartheid era. We were in colored schools. Things were rough, right? And so yeah, we were given that. And I just remember every time bathing with this green soap thinking, I will never. I, I am going to change this one day and maybe 12. And so I. My first job was a cash at Woolworths. And that time, Dove soap pictures and my first paycheck, all of eight bucks an hour. I took my packets, I went to the food market woodsy, and I bought me some Dove soap.

[A]

That's so good.

[B]

And no one was allowed to use my soap. And the reason I share that story is because there was a picture that was created out of adversity that said, this will never happen to anybody under my watch. It will never happen to me. And I'm going to change this narrative. I didn't know the how, but I just knew that there was no space to feel sorry for myself and that I had a calling. I had a mandate.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

Not to let another five year old feel the way I did at five years old.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Okay. So with that being said, hard work, university, studied finance. And that's why you're saying like how does. How do the two worlds come together? I should have actually studied behavioral science, but I didn't. Studied finance and I worked under my brother in law, guy tuning, and he taught me everything I know about business. Incredible mentor and. But there came a time where I started upgrading myself. I knew there was more and I could feel there was more. And I was leading a team of about 300 people at the time.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And the only time I felt alive was when I was in my stores with my people. I knew my cleaner's name, my washer's name, my cheese lady's name. I knew my people. And I remember saying to my husband, the only time I come alive is when I am with my people and I'm training my people. And so I begin to ask for more. And as, as, as you know, I wouldn't say fate as calling would have it. I found myself rubbing shoulders with an institution at that point in time called the Pacific Institute tpm. And I went through the then flagship program and as you know, I'm all or nothing. I'm in. Right? And I went through the program painfully so. Yes. Yes. And I'm learning to do it with less dead bodies around me. I'm learning that time and Space is maybe also valuable. Before it was like all the way. That's it. And so I'm maturing and growing and not at the expense of anybody else. You know, that's kind of the direction like to go. And I resigned from my then job. I was CEO of the Ning Group. Ning Group, sure. And I resigned and I started this business from my dining room table with one dominant emotion. Every leader, in fact every beating heart needs to know this stuff exists. And there will be no poverty on the African continent. And that really was, is my driver Vusi, is that it's not about somebody coming to rescue you. It's about recognizing that everything you need is fully available to you. You've just got to be asking the right questions. You just got to be hungry enough for it. You've just got to be okay with discomfort. You've got to be okay with, with changing stuff and not being stuck and not being greedy. You've got to be okay with checking your character, sharpening your sword. And you know that my primary driver is my relationship with Jesus Christ.

[A]

Amen.

[B]

And so Jesus has literally walked me through some stuff. I mean, him and I have some hard conversations. One of the things I do know is that his heart is for not only the African continent, for the world, sure, but Africa in particular. I would say the heart of God for Africa is for her to find her true identity and rise up and not continue these patterns of poverty and pain and generational curses and all of those. And it starts with leaders.

[A]

It's in the prophetic.

[B]

It starts with leaders in the home, the mother, the father. It starts with leaders in the schools.

[A]

Amen.

[B]

It starts with anywhere that you are and you are leading. And I even say to ladies, if you're leading your helper and your guy that's cleaning your garden, you're leading.

[A]

Amen.

[B]

Lead. And it starts with the right leadership. And one of the things that drives me is that I saw what bad leadership looks like. Bad, bad leadership looks like. And I made a decision. That is not what I want and that is not what I'm going to carry forward. We have a responsibility. In my personal opinion, I have a responsibility not to leave the planet the way you found it. You can't just come here, pay your bond and die.

[A]

Yeah, sure. Please, sure, sure. That's such a big statement, eh?

[B]

That's what a lot of us get stuck in. Pay our bond and die. Go to the Kruger park once. No, there's more that we need to be doing. Those things are not bad. But those things are not our calling.

[A]

That is so good. That is so good.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

That's good, Sean.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

This thing about, you know, leaving the world better than you found it, and your comment about. About Africa, A friend of mine, Apostle Grace, in Uganda, he was in the country some time ago, so he and I were having lunch, and he said something to me which really stuck. He said, you know, in most African nations, God can gather his warriors in the tens of thousands routinely. He was like, and it's true. And he said, a brother, Reverend Julian, will host rhema feast. He'll have 40, 50,000 people attend. Gather to meet and worship. And my brother Paul Adefarisi, or my brother Joshua Salman, or.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Tens of thousands of people. And then he said, you know, he does this thing at. I mean, it's the Colola airstrip in. In. In Uganda where they meet for service on a Thursday or Wednesday. And it's in the sports field. There's no covering.

[B]

Yeah, Okay.

[A]

I have watched that Service and seen 3,4000 people worship. And it's raining.

[B]

It won't work for me. Not for me. I would not.

[A]

And so he'll gather, like. And then he says to me, he said, you know, if you go and look in many, like, nations in the continent, you'll find this. And then he says, how come that never happens in South Africa? And he was like, it also never happens in, like, many southern African countries.

[B]

That's very true.

[A]

Yeah. And his thing was, he said, there is a spirit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That needs to be removed.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that spirit, he said, the problem. He was sort of talking to me. He was like, the problem V is men of faith like you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Have not stepped into the breach where you can challenge that spirit and God. Actually, we lead. You don't. And so he was saying, which is the point you're making, that all the people I just mentioned led. Then the congregation came.

[B]

You see, that's so good.

[A]

Right? It's not like there was a congregation there and they just showed up like. No, they led.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then the congregation came, you know, and,

[B]

you know, it's this thing, faith, you know, faith, belief without evidence. And it's about stepping into the unknown with only either a word from God or a picture in your mind and prepared to do whatever it takes. No applause, long nights, whatever it takes. Those are the ones that change. The tide of a generation is saying, listen, here I am. I'm going, and not at the expense of your family. And a lot of the times we see this lack of balance where we Forget that the primary foundation is family.

[A]

The ministry is in the family.

[B]

Correct. Exactly. And I love what you said just now, sitting with your family and taking that intentional time to say, we're doing this as a family. We don't have to be talking, but we're just together. But essentially, for me, it's about that. That boldness that says, you know what? I'm okay to plant the tree and never eat from its fruit.

[A]

That's so good. Last question. Yeah. This is the last question we end all our podcasts with. So you. You're free to take a sec to think about it. The podcast is called Ideas that Matter because my belief is the world we live in is nothing more than a series of ideas made tangible. Love that this building we're sat in was an idea. The clothes we wear, the mice we're using. Once you begin to see everything in the physical as something that started before it was the physical, you begin to ask yourself, what is it that is in my spirit that I don't have the courage to make physical? Because once you can answer that question.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Once you answer like that question, often that's where your purpose sits. It's like there is a root thing planted in you. It's a seed. But that seed. We were talking about this in the family yesterday. So we've been working on our garden. I'm going along about. Wait to ask you the question. So we've been working on our garden all of winter, and we've got a big garden, but all of winter. And I hate, hate fallen leaves and dirty swimming pools. And I hate them because the one time I was the most broke.

[B]

This is a true story. This is a true story. You were broke, but you were not put right in. Is that difference?

[A]

So. So. And this is again, you got to do the internal work because I got to a stage. I was like, why is it that every time like winter, autumn is coming, I get anxious? And then I realized that is so powerful. Yeah. Because. Because the body.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Remembers the score. It keeps the score. And so the minute my. My nose smells, my nose is like, ah, danger, Danger. We remember this season. That is so good, right? Yeah, that is so good. So I hate with the passion, fallen leaves, dirty swimming pool. Right. My kids will tell you, like, the minute the swimming pool, dad is there going, I might be late for work, but I'm cleaning the cleaning school right now. I'm not going back there. So I mentioned this. So now we've been working in this garden all of winter, and, you know, gardens Are strange things. Right. Because they just are what we make them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So good that you can't argue with. If I come to your home and your garden is bad, there's no excuse. It's your garden. And so now I'm looking at beautiful long trees and rose bushes coming up everywhere. And on the entrance, the missus has planted hydrangeas there. It looks great. I've got this long driveway with these, like, beautiful bushes. And on the bushes, these, like, white flowers have started to bloom.

[B]

I know those are coming out now.

[A]

Let me tell you.

[B]

Terrible with the names of flowers, right?

[A]

Same, same.

[B]

We just know they smell nice. Yes.

[A]

If it has colors, it's a rose. You know, if it's. If it's for peace, it's a lily.

[B]

Nothing like that.

[A]

That's all I know. You know? And if I'm at Woolworths and I want to be fancy, it's a tulip. That's all I know. Anyway, so. But. So we're having this conversation about, like, how great our garden looks, and it just hit me that actually, all gardens, it's soil.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sun.

[B]

Yeah. Water.

[A]

Water.

[B]

Ecosystem does it.

[A]

That's it. And the best garden in the world. Worst garden in the world. The ingredients, the inputs, is the same. So when you're fixing, you're either looking at soil or sun or water. And the composition of these. Right.

[B]

And the timing.

[A]

And the timing. Oh, say it.

[B]

And the UVBP is it. That plant can go in that soil in that time.

[A]

So good. So good.

[B]

So that's the power of. I mean, an ecosystem.

[A]

So good. And the thing about the season is also learning that when the leaves are falling is the time for the leaves to fall.

[B]

Correct. And there's nothing wrong with that.

[A]

And there's nothing wrong with that. Because they can't be a renewal. Right. Unless you allow that process to take place. So here's my question for you.

[B]

I'm listening.

[A]

What is the single idea that you hold to be so true that you would die for it?

[B]

What is the single idea.

[A]

Single idea you hold it to be so true that you would die for it? It could be a belief, it could be a perspective, but you believe it. And you will never forsake that belief of that idea.

[B]

Because I have to just trust what came first. Right.

[A]

Go for it.

[B]

So what came first is that it is the heart of the Father, that no man shall perish. Wow.

[A]

Tell me more.

[B]

God's promises are. Yes. We are the amen. We are the amen. God's promises are yes. And God can make a promise to you, Vousi. But if you're sitting down and feeling sorry for yourself and not mastering and taking control of your soul, that promise remains. But it's not coming to sit on your lap. You've got to master your soul and take hold of the promise.

[A]

Got you.

[B]

And so if we look at Africa, let's just talk about our heartbeat. I do believe that the heart of the Father is Africa has a promise. And it is not his will that people are suffering, dying and destitute. It's not the will of God.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So if that be true, what is our role to play? I'm with you because we partner. We co create. We were created by a creator to create.

[A]

So good.

[B]

What are we supposed to be creating? Because creation exists, as you said, the soil, the sun, the water is existing. Everything we need exists.

[A]

So good.

[B]

What are we supposed to be doing to leave the planet in a state that pleases the heart of the Father.

[A]

So good. So good.

[B]

And that for me, if we can understand that and live that and play our part, I think that we would die and close our eyes honorably. But you gotta leave everything here. Leave your gifts, your talents, squeeze yourself out here. Because when you get to the grave, it's useless.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So that demands higher calling people. We, a lot of people, and myself included, I feel like we underlive our lives. We live sloppy lives, we live lazy lives. We want comfort. We. We're not prepared to partner with the Creator to create because it's not coming our way. Everything we need is fully available to us right here. And when I went through that, that program 12 years ago, my thing was every beating heart needs to know this exists. It exists.

[A]

Yeah. It's good. He is the yes. We are the Amen. I'd never heard it said that way.

[B]

Somebody said it to me the other day like that. And I thought, wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because the yes is certain. The promises remain. Why don't we see them fulfilled? Well, they walked 11 day journey for 40 years. Why? Yeah, he never said it was 40 years. 11 days. 40 years. Why? Because they weren't a meaning. They were complaining.

[A]

So good.

[B]

Moaning.

[A]

So good.

[B]

Lack of faith. Scared. Take us back. That's. That's how human beings are.

[A]

So good.

[B]

They weren't partnering. And sometimes you've got a partner and sometimes you got to be scared and you got to do it scared. But that conviction needs to be crystal clear. And if more of us had it, Vusi, I don't believe we would have an uneducated child or a hungry child or a destitute child on the planet. It is unacceptable that the world looks like it does and we have everything we need. And so for me, I make it my life's mission, because if I can influence one leader who's got 4,000 people, that is that he's serving, I've done a good job because we can't fix it. All right,

[A]

Sean, this has been an enlightening conversation.

[B]

Thank you so much for the privilege.

[A]

Thank you for spending your Sunday afternoon with me.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And my, My, my apologies to the family for taking you away from them.

[B]

I will hand over the. The apologies. And I think we need to get you some more dad jokes. Sure. The titles. We need Sunday jokes. But thank you, vousi. And yeah, thank you so much for the work you do and the lives you touch and for. I think I wrote this or I said it in your 40th video. I said it's a life well stewarded.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

So we appreciate you 40 turning 29. Gee, you keep going. And 29 forever, brother.

[A]

That was our conversation with Sean. See you on the other side of this. Cheers. You can send us a wife WhatsApp voice note about your thoughts on our podcasts on 278-150-5667. That's 278-150-57667. We look forward to hearing from you. This podcast was proudly brought to you by my growth fund in partnership with Sound and Sounds Media.