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- [00:00]
Prof. Lumumba
Foreign.
- [00:06]
Anthony
I am a busiophone Anthony from Nigeria and first of all, I want to give a really deep shout out to you for all the work you put into your podcast and it really inspires me and I can really bet my bottom dollars that it inspires a lot of your listeners out there, a lot of people who just hit on it and listen to it. So thank you so much, Vousi, for being a blessing to the world in your own way. Fast forward. I have listened to your podcast and from my experience, I'm going to say it should be a binging podcast. It should be an ever binging podcast. It should be literally everywhere. I mean, you all should listen to this podcast because it's so going to bless. You're going to learn a whole lot and you're going to implement everything you've learned. I've listened to lots of your episodes on growth on. On imposter Syndrome and How to tackle debt, you know, and all of those really, really amazing ones. And so far I have been implementing them mentally, psychologically and then physically to seeing the best result of it. And yes, I can attest that it is working. It is real, it is valid. I have a question and I would love you to feature this on any of your episodes because it's going to help a whole lot of us and just anyone who really needs to hear this. What do you do when you start doing something and all of a sudden probably you run out of finance for it? So this doesn't happen because you did not plan for it, all right? This happens because after you had planned for it, other stuffs came up and you just had to. And this other stuff that came up are really pressing stuffs and you had to navigate to sorting that out. Doesn't mean that what you initially wanted to handle wasn't important. But then I don't know if I should use an example, right? I don't know if I should use an example. So for example, I love podcasting and I really want to podcast. I really want to talk to people, I want to build an audience. And podcasting covers lots of financing, right? Covid slots of financing. And I've prepared for this. But then all of a sudden I have other priorities, you know, other priorities like school, feeding. And then I have set aside this particular amount for a podcast session. But then there is school, there is an emergency somewhere, what do I do? And then this things now start to compete with the podcasting because for example, I haven't uploaded episodes in months, but I really want to. What Do. I do. Thank you.
- [02:56]
Mofet
Hello, family. Hello, Vousi. My name is Mofet. Actually I'm from Malawi, but currently I'm in South Africa in Pretoria. I don't know where I was all these years. I just discover now your podcast. Now it's like I have five months and listening to your podcast. It's just a life changing opportunity. Like I'm learning each and every single day. I am an entrepreneur. I'm just new in the business. But this opportunity, this platform is helping me so much, like to reach a lot of people and to talk to people with confidence. I'm so, so much appreciated. I appreciate shared for this podcast. I love so much and keep doing the great job. Thank you so much. Bye.
- [03:46]
Shaheen
Hey, VT, this is Shaheen. I am from Durban in KwaZulu Natal. I just wanted to reach out and say, you know what, thank you so much for what you put into the world, the podcasts I recently started listening to. I have been following you on your socials for quite a long time. I have watched your videos. Your videos usually pop up on my feed. And I do pay attention to what it is that you are saying, the things that you do, you know, the type of person that you are. And recently, you know, there are always struggles that come up when it comes to business, when it comes to studying, you know, there's always trials and tribulations that come up. But recently I started listening to your podcasts and specifically the one with Lamar, Lamar Tyler that you had. I listened to it recently and it put me, it took me to where I wanted to be. I started thinking a bit more outside the box. I started doing things a little better, a little differently. And, you know, things seem to be working out. So I just want to say from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much for what you're putting into the world. And, you know, if you do get a chance to listen to this, I really hope that, you know, you keep doing what you're doing and more people get to hear what it is that you're saying.
- [05:05]
Vusi
It's time to take your seat at the table. Find out how with Vositembegwayo as we discuss ideas that matter.
- [05:14]
Prof. Lumumba
A catalyst for bold action.
- [05:18]
Vusi
This week we're joined by Prof. Lumumba. We met for a conversation in Harare, Zimbabwe. For those of you who've never traveled it, I highly recommend that you go and experience the hospitality of the people of Zimbabwe. We'll talk about Africa, we'll talk about Pan Africanism, we'll talk about history. But most importantly, we're going to talk about what will it take to build a future that all Africans, regardless of where they come from, can find commonality and prosperity in and build a life that they can be proud of. This is going to be an exciting episode. Enjoy. Hello, family. Welcome to Ideas that Matter. Plus, you know why we call this Ideas that Matter? The podcast? Because we genuinely believe in this podcast. Ideas shape the world. And so we love talking to people who understand this, but also who posit for us ideas that matter in the modern day. I couldn't be more excited today to be joined by Prof. All of you here know him, and all of you have listened to some of his work. So he's an incredible voice in the experience of Africans and in the narrative of blackness in the world today. He understands the history of our people, but I also think more importantly, he understands the aspirations of our humanity and has the ability to capture both of these and communicate them in a manner that very few, if any, in the day can actually do. So, please welcome Prof. Hi, Prof. How are you? I'm good.
- [06:49]
Prof. Lumumba
You are keeping well?
- [06:50]
Vusi
By God's grace.
- [06:51]
Prof. Lumumba
God is ever gracious.
- [06:52]
Vusi
You know, yesterday you and I were on the stage for the second time.
- [06:56]
Prof. Lumumba
Yes, indeed.
- [06:56]
Vusi
I should tell you. Yeah. When I was preparing.
- [06:59]
Prof. Lumumba
Yes.
- [07:00]
Vusi
And I knew that you'd be on the program.
- [07:01]
Prof. Lumumba
Yeah.
- [07:02]
Vusi
The last time we were together was in Nigeria.
- [07:05]
Prof. Lumumba
Yes. I remember.
- [07:06]
Vusi
At the platform.
- [07:07]
Prof. Lumumba
Yes.
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Vusi
And I went before you.
- [07:09]
Prof. Lumumba
Yes.
- [07:10]
Vusi
And I thought I did. Well, then you went. I was like, oh, man. So yesterday I was like, make sure Prof.
- [07:19]
Mofet
Goes first.
- [07:22]
Vusi
But I loved what you said yesterday. And as a student of your work, there is a consistency to the themes that you speak about. For those who are seeing you, experiencing you for the first time, they might not altogether cognize the themes that you speak about. One of the things I love about how you approach the subject of the collective emancipation of our people in a holistic sense is that you're able to give it historical context. So last year, I traveled for the first time to the small island nation of Trinidad and Tobago, and I wasn't aware how important Trinidad was in the relationship the diaspora has had in the past with the continent. And then yesterday you were talking about Trinidad and how a number of the conversations we have about Pan Africanism start in part in the island of Trinidad. Maybe just for context, tell us a bit about that.
- [08:33]
Prof. Lumumba
You know, Trinidad and tobacco and the Caribbean generally was the breeding ground of what is described and known as Pan Africanism. Sylvester Williams of Trinidad and Tobago was the first person to begin broaching the idea that we, as persons with an African association, or those who are taken from the African continent, must work together together to liberate themselves at that time from physical slavery. So the very first meetings were held, of course, in London and in Europe. Sylvester Williams was the arrow's head, as it were. And he inspired many at that time. So that even when individuals such as Marcus Garvey in Jamaica are beginning to talk about the return to the continent, the original spirit is that of Sylvester William.
- [09:38]
Mofet
Incredible.
- [09:39]
Prof. Lumumba
He's a lot more organized and his work begins to reach the continent. So that while the early meetings are in the 19th century and during that period, you also have people in the continent, people like Karisaka Seme of South Africa, who is one pixel who is described as one of the founders of the African National Congress.
- [10:03]
Vusi
That's right.
- [10:04]
Prof. Lumumba
In 1906. He's a student at the University of Columbia, and he's met striking reference to the works of Sylvester Williams. W.E.B. du Bois in the United States of America is making reference to the works of Sylvester Williams. And ultimately, it is these works of Sylvester Williams that culminates in the much more known meeting of pan Africanists in 1945 in Manchester. that meeting, meeting is the beginning of the connection between the Caribbean Pan Africanists, the American Pan Africanists and the Africans. With Kwame Kuruma attending that meeting, Obafemi Awolowo attending that meeting, Jomo Kenyatta attending that meeting, There is a debate as to whether Kamuzu Banda.
- [11:02]
Vusi
Why is it a debate?
- [11:03]
Prof. Lumumba
It's a debate because there are those who want to argue he should not attend. But I think he was in attendance. He was somewhere in the vicinity. And that history is very important because, as you rightly say, it contextualizes what Africans are yearning for in the continent. To free ourselves from the clutches of colonialism in the Caribbean, to free the slaves in the United States of America to gain civil rights. So it is what gives impetus to the civil rights movement. And you see some of the very dyed in the wool Pan Africanists like John Hendricks Williams or John Henry Clark emerging from this tradition. So those little islands, Trinidad and Tobago, then become, as it were, as I said a little earlier, the breeding ground for Pan Africanism. And later, of course, Sylvester Williams does not get the recognition that he deserves. So that today, when you ask who is the father of Pan Africanism, people are quick to say, WB Du Bois. Du Bois.
- [12:17]
Vusi
That's right.
- [12:18]
Prof. Lumumba
And that, of course, sometimes happens that they are unsung heroes in these. But in the continent, people will tell you. People like Kwamen Kuruma, people like Ahmed Sekou Ture, Julius Kambaraki, Nyerere Leopold said a single. It all started in the Caribbean.
- [12:38]
Vusi
One of the things I find interesting about your way to narrate the arc of history is, and I'd never, I'd never considered this until you and I were in conversation and you said it to me that the, the, the struggle looks different, but it's actually the same struggle. And the timeline is, is, is different, but it's the same fight. And the heroes might be different, but at an ideological level, the fight for the emancipation of the self in its full sense is the same single struggle. But I have this question for you. Systems change, they evolve. It's clear that the system that our forebearers were talking about exists today, but under a different guise. And so for our generation, how do we begin to talk about a collective coming together and a Pan African experience, a pulling together of our talents, our resources, our capabilities long before we put together our economics? If we can just pull together our collective human resources, how do we begin to even think about it?
- [13:57]
Prof. Lumumba
Vusi, you have talked about this, that the world order is one that is designed. Those who designed slavery are the very same who designed colonization. They are the very same who designed the neo colonial project. So there is a sense in which they are always ahead of the game. There is a sense in which they are like the chameleon. The color may change, but the substance remains. You may think that you are fighting a different thing, but you are fighting a hydra headed animal. You cut one head and the rest remains.
- [14:44]
Vusi
That's right.
- [14:45]
Prof. Lumumba
Because you must ask yourself contextually, what has the struggle always been about? It is resources. If you look at slavery, the resources that were required then was human power and human capacity. Because Europe and America were going through an agrarian revolution. They had not discovered the tractor, they had industrialized. So when they move into industrialization, when they now have the tractor, then it changes. Then you need not only human resource, but you also need natural resource. If you look at it that way, you are always fighting against the same forces whose needs have changed. But the aspiration has always been one to improve the quality of their lives. Because when all is said and done, when we talk about the first Industrial Revolution, we talk about the second Industrial Revolution, the third, and now the fourth and fifth, which are merging with the Internet of Things and artificial intelligence. What is it the Caucasians want to improve the quality of their lives. The Asians Want to improve the quality of their lives, and they are ahead of the game. We in the African continent, we are always playing catch up. So that when, for example, you see the United States of America at a certain stage, says, we have the green card, Are they offering the green card because they love us so much? No, it is because they see a gap in their labor needs and they want to attract that labor. If you see in this 21st century, the Germans are now saying, we want labor, and we want labor in the medical field. The Arabs in Saudi and in Qatar and in the Emirati say, we want labor, but in the household field. So we are sending our young men and women to work in the household. So we are fighting at different fronts. The Chinese are teaching you Mandarin in the Confucius Institute, which they have opened in different universities of Africa. And they are making you believe that Mandarin is the language that we liberate. And we and those in the middle class are attracted to this as moths are attracted to light. But this light is a trap, which begs the question, how do you fight that which you do not know? In my other life, I'm a martial artist. And one of the greatest martial artists, who was also a philosopher was Bruce Lee. And he came up with a system of fighting. He calls it the act of fighting without fighting. And he says, when you are fighting and you want to be an effective fighter, you must be like water, because water does not change. But it can be liquid, it can be solid, and it can be gas. We in the continent must be people who are able to adapt. And even if you allow me a little spiritual inclination, in the New Testament, there is Paul. And Paul says, in order to win them to the Lord, for the Jews, I was a Jewish. To those who followed the law, I followed the law. Those who did not follow the law, I behaved as if I did not. In other words, what he was doing, the strategy and the goal remained one, but he was able to change tactics. So you can change tactically without undermining the goal. And I think that is what we must be able to do. I've said at a different forum that if your enemy is chameleonic, you too must be chameleon.
- [18:57]
Vusi
That's right.
- [18:58]
Prof. Lumumba
Only then will you survive and thrive
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Vusi
so to be as cunning as the system.
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Prof. Lumumba
Oh, indeed, indeed. The tree that does not bend is broken by the wind.
- [19:12]
Vusi
That's so good. Yes, there is a wisdom there that is a age wisdom. Because I find in particular, when we are younger, the militant nature of our disposition is such that we are often invested in how much noise we can make without necessarily thinking about how much progress can we make. And what I'm hearing you say is sometimes the weight of the progress is noise, but sometimes the weight of the progress is mediation. Sometimes it's collaboration.
- [19:49]
Prof. Lumumba
Yes.
- [19:51]
Vusi
Sometimes it is appearing to be as if you are the thing you are opposing so that it accepts you and you change it from the other side. But as long as the goal is clear, you do whatever it takes to get there. That's a wild proposition. That's a wild proposition.
- [20:12]
Prof. Lumumba
You know, Vusi, what you are saying, and these holy books have a very interesting way of teaching us. Just last weekend I was listening to a sermon by Martin Luther King is called but if not. And he founds it in the Bible, in the book of Daniel, the story of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. And he said these young boys were in exile, they are in Babylon and they are attending a school which Kawan may describe as the University of Nebuchadnezzar.
- [20:46]
Vusi
Yeah, that's good. That's good.
- [20:49]
Prof. Lumumba
This Nebuchadnezzar, he's told that these young men are worshiping a God and they don't follow you. So they change. He changes their names. They don't resist. He asked them, he asked that they eat from the kitchen of the king, animals that are sacrificed, that they refuse. And then he tells them, you must worship this image. But they say, this one we will not. But the most important thing that comes out there is that we will not worship that thing. And even if you want to throw us in the furnace, the God that we worship will save us. But even if he does not, and Luther King says, and I agree with him, that the most important thing is even if he does not, that's good. In other words, these are not fair weather individuals who are only wedded to principle when it is convenient, even when it is inconvenient, they will remain true to their agenda. And I think it is important therefore to always ask yourself whether you are changing yourself or you are changing your tactics.
- [22:03]
Vusi
That's so good.
- [22:04]
Prof. Lumumba
Tactics you can and circumstances force you to change your tactics and but never your goal and never your principles. And I think that is critical. And there is no shortage of individuals who have changed that in a manner that has allowed them to realize the goal. Because history does not remember those who start well. History remembers those who finish well.
- [22:28]
Vusi
That's good.
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Prof. Lumumba
How do you finish your.
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Vusi
Your native country of Kenya predates the experience of freedom we have in South Africa. And so in. In the context, I suppose, of the continent, we are the newborns.
- [22:44]
Prof. Lumumba
Yeah. Yeah.
- [22:46]
Vusi
And the reason I mentioned this is because one of the ways to try and date our experience is to look at the experience of those who precede us. And I travel Kenya often. We have businesses in Kenya. Kenya is home for me.
- [23:04]
Prof. Lumumba
And
- [23:07]
Vusi
the. The. The economic situation is such that it is a hard sell to the rest of the continent to say, well, you know, this is the Kenyan economic situation is the aspirational situation. And by the way, that's not a uniquely Kenyan. You can say the same about Ghana, although perhaps a bit differently now with the new president. You can say the same about Nigeria. Frankly, I mentioned this point only to ask the question, so how do we. It's clearly about resources. Yes. So how does this generation need to think about the resources of the now and of the future so that it can muster those resources? Is my first question. And my second question is what is the resource of the present and the future? Is it still the sweat on people's backs and physical labor or is the resource construction changing?
- [24:12]
Prof. Lumumba
The greatest resource is human resource throughout the ages. And when we talk about Africa, we talk about Kenya and many African countries, we are punching below our weight. If you look at Kenya, for example, give or take, our GDP has not exceeded 120 billion United States dollars. And I say this because there was a time in my lifetime when the country called Vietnam was at war. And that is what we heard about Vietnam in 1975. It was the most bombed country on earth within a generation. That Vietnam has money to utilize human resource founded on concrete culture with a clear agenda on what they want to do. And their GDP as I speak to you, is in excess of 500 billion United States dollars. Do they have the resources that we have on the ground in many African countries? Do they have the gold that Congo has? Do they have the Colton that Congo has? Do they have the forest that Congo has? Can they have the coffee that Kenya has? Do they have the soda ash that Kenya has? No, they don't. But the little they have, they have leveraged on it. And there is something to learn from them. Look at Singapore, for example. Look at Mauritius. Look at Indonesia now. So when we think about the future, we've got to think how we are going to use our minds to manipulate and ensure that the resources given to us are utilized in a manner that is going to change the quality of our lives. And I listen to the Chinese and I remember last year they were assembled in Beijing, 6,000 people who came from different parts of China, have been meeting in the villages for over a year. And they met. They meet the politburo and they are thinking about China 100 years from thence, which means the people at that assembly will not be alive.
- [26:37]
Vusi
Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure.
- [26:39]
Prof. Lumumba
But they are thinking about 100 years. They are not just thinking about their country. How are we going to relate with Africa? How are we going to relate with Europe? How are we going to relate with the rest of the world? In a typical African country, now that we have elections, which was a bequest from our colonizer, we think in election circles five years. And as long as that is the way you are thinking, you can never plan anything that is serious. So that the men and women who we give the task of implementing the things that we are utilizing are themselves in a hurry. They want to use the opportunity they have to make their personal lives perfect. Intellect must also have something that is intergenerational and sacrificial. In other words, that your children must benefit from the sweat of your labor and your children's children must benefit from the sweat of your labor. In other words, we must see ourselves as building a house, you laying the foundation and other generation putting up the roof. If we think like that, Vusi that this continent, the continent of Africa in terms of. Of resources, is the richest continent on earth. But paradoxically and ironically, our people are the poorest. But we can change that.
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Vusi
So you said something yesterday, it's been eating me up all night. You said the world has a plan for Africa. And then you said, but does Africa have a plan for the world?
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Prof. Lumumba
Yes.
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Vusi
I have to tell you, man, that shifted my head because I then started thinking so. So in whose reality are we living if we don't have a plan for ourselves? It's pretty clear that we're existing in a reality that was designed for us, not by us. And, and the. The only thing worse than, and I say this with trepidation, but the only thing worse than being enslaved is being enslaved, but under the illusion of freedom. Because then you don't even know that there's something that needs to be changed. So the question I want to ask you is, so how does Africa have a plan for Africa? What do we need to do here? We have the institutions, we have the union, we have the nation states, we have the trading blocks, we have the free trade. What's missing? What's the piece of the puzzle that has to come together that in your mind, if it connected, the system would change?
- [29:28]
Prof. Lumumba
Perhaps we need to re examine and deconstruct some of these systems.
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Vusi
Sure.
- [29:34]
Prof. Lumumba
If you look at when one talks about the world defining and designing Africa, we still are wedded to boundaries which were designed for us by the European colonial powers. And we are wedded to those borders that we can kill and maim. And we have killed and maimed for it. In 1963, when countries have started beginning by regaining independence, perhaps a little earlier 1950s, the leaders were conscious that these boundaries can remain as administrative. But we need to interact a lot more. So I think we must rethink governance.
- [30:12]
Vusi
Sure.
- [30:13]
Prof. Lumumba
Once we rethink governance, then we discover that there is no one size fits all even in one territory. So that if you are talking about South Africa, for example, there are things that will be done in Zululand that will not be done in the Peddy land or Vendaland, but they all add up in the same thing. We are not bold enough to do so to rethink governance. And if we begin to rethink governance, we are going to ask ourselves, Sadak, how is Sadaq useful for the 18 or so member countries? How is the East African Community useful for the eight or so member countries? How is Ecowas useful for the 15 or so member countries? How is the Sahen useful for this four or so member countries? How is the Maghreb? Then we go into something that will be beneficial to us. Because if you go to an architect and tell them that you want a four bedroom house is because in your scheme of things, you think that you need all the rooms and therefore that you've got to be conscious of the environment in which you are dealing all these. And because we are talking about the future, you are talking about sustainability, the material that you use, you are going to use material that is aligned to the environment. Africa must rethink governance. And two people have written about these in books that I think are very useful. One of them is Adeke Adebajo of Nigeria was written about Africa after the Castle Berlin, Africa after the second World War. And the other one is Nana Kobenan Kesia V who has written Governance, Culture and Governance, the Ghanaian Paradigm. And in that book John Henry Clark makes a statement which he will say that when African countries started regaining independence, all of them inherited system that were bequeathed by the colonizer. And he says none of them will ever succeed on the basis of those systems.
- [32:23]
Vusi
Wow.
- [32:24]
Prof. Lumumba
And we must look at Africa to see that we are collapsing because there are systems that we don't understand, sometimes don't even appreciate. So it is. But we must not judge Ourselves too harshly. What I think is that we must have the courage to have conversations, have the courage in Botswana to ask ourselves, does this serve as well? Is there something in the most culture that can inform how we run government in the contemporary world? In Nigeria, we asked ourselves, we have so many ethnicities, so many systems. You have the Igbo, you have the Yoruba, you have the Calabari, you have the. Is there a system that we can use so that Africa is built from the village and we are conscious of the bigger picture. We have the macro and the micro. Until the day we have that conversation, we are going nowhere. And I conclude, answering that the little Switzerland that all of us know at the haven of peace. If you read our history, there was a time when they were fighting ethnic fights.
- [33:38]
Vusi
Wow. I didn't know.
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Prof. Lumumba
The German speakers, the French speakers, the Italian speakers, and the other group that is never heard about March were all fighting until somebody came and said, we can change this. Let us create the Swiss Confederation, let us do things village. And then we meet at the higher level of foreign affairs and national coordination. And throughout that time, even during the wars, it has become the haven. That is the question.
- [34:14]
Vusi
I see. Yes. So they designed it. It is designed specific to their context, fit for purpose. Ah, that is so good.
- [34:22]
Prof. Lumumba
Suppose it were to happen, Bruce, in the Democratic Republic of Gong Right, that they were to design. Say yes from Kinshasa. We're not going to achieve it if we are centralized. But let us confederate in Kasai, in northern Kivu, in the Bakongo area, in the Baluba area, and we confederate. Believe me, within 10 years, the Congo DRC as we know it will have a GDP of no less than 1 trillion, with the quality of people's lives changing, dramatic. So good it can be done.
- [35:01]
Vusi
That's so good.
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Prof. Lumumba
But are we bold enough? Are we bold enough to actually deal with it? I was asking a friend of mine who is a teacher of political science at the University of Nairobi, and I what do you teach in political science at the University of Nairobi? Are you still teaching the theories of Marx on how the state is to be built? Or you are now contemporary teaching about African things and about Kenyan things?
- [35:26]
Vusi
That's good. That's good.
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Prof. Lumumba
Should ask those nagging questions. Yeah. Even uncomfortable ones.
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Vusi
Yeah.
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Prof. Lumumba
Necessary.
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Vusi
That's so good. You've just. I. I fly into. Into Zurich often and you've just answered for me why it is that they have dual announcements of their. Yes, of. Yeah, I wasn't aware of their history going to Zurich.
- [35:47]
Prof. Lumumba
I think that that German.
- [35:49]
Vusi
That's right. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
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Prof. Lumumba
Yeah.
- [35:51]
Vusi
And then sometimes you will have a pilot who will announce in German, then in French. French. And then. But I wasn't. And, and, and the reason I find this, this is for me why I
- [35:57]
Prof. Lumumba
find it group the Roman.
- [35:59]
Vusi
The Roman. That's right. This is what I find interesting, right. Is so the, the Europeans understood that it is through a union that they can have collective prosperity. But they didn't just understand it, they capacitated it.
- [36:17]
Prof. Lumumba
Yes.
- [36:18]
Vusi
And when necessary, there is a war going on right now where they have built military infrastructure to make that a reality. And so what I'm hearing you say is it requires the courage to rethink and reimagine the system, but it also requires the courage to then resource whatever you rethink and you reimagine.
- [36:37]
Prof. Lumumba
Absolutely. Look at, I mean even we in Africa have actually imagined. The only problem in Africa is that once we have imagined and we have started doing these things, we don't resource them. Look at the, the Lagos Plan of action of 1980, right. We said intra African trade is at 25%.
- [36:59]
Vusi
Right.
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Prof. Lumumba
We ought to increase it.
- [37:01]
Vusi
Right.
- [37:02]
Prof. Lumumba
But how do you increase, increase and enhance. First of all, make people move freely, remove visas, remove tariff and non tariff barriers so that if I have a product in Liberia, I move it to Abi Sababa. If I have a product in South Africa, I can move it to Cairo. Which means you need infrastructure. You are resourcing the road so that you can track things. Look at 1988. We discover intra African air traveling is too expensive. So leaders meet in Yamasukru in d' Ivoire and said Africa is going to be a single sky so that you make it easy. But did we implement it? I think in the month of May. A few countries in West Africa have now said they are now single sky. I think Nigeria, Gambia and Gabon, I think. And others. But we could have done this a little early. You travel?
- [37:58]
Vusi
Yes.
- [37:59]
Prof. Lumumba
You can travel from Bratzi Lava in Slovakia to Portugal. Nobody asks you.
- [38:05]
Vusi
I take a train.
- [38:06]
Prof. Lumumba
Visa.
- [38:07]
Vusi
I take a train. I don't even need a passport.
- [38:08]
Anthony
Absolutely.
- [38:09]
Mofet
Yeah.
- [38:10]
Prof. Lumumba
But here I fly for one hour. Visa, visa and dandas complete with a yellow fever certificate.
- [38:17]
Vusi
Yeah, yeah.
- [38:18]
Prof. Lumumba
So until the day. And you've used the word which in my view is the game changing word, resource. If you don't resource those things, if you have pipes and there is no water running through it, the pipes are useless.
- [38:36]
Vusi
True story.
- [38:37]
Prof. Lumumba
And that is what Africa must realize. You've got to put in the money. I mean, recently we saw when the Americans said they are withdrawing their funds through USI usa and we are crying. We did not know that somebody else was paying for a health system. Somebody was paying for agriculture. So we've got to learn to resource our things. Look at little Dubai. What do they have to offer? They know what they want. They have defined what they want. They have welcomed the world and we have made it a place of economic pilgrimage from the African continent.
- [39:12]
Vusi
So true.
- [39:13]
Prof. Lumumba
So why can't Equatorial guinea be the country that offers that so good? Why can't Angola do that? Why can't the Gambia do that? Why can't Eritrea do that? We can do it. But as you rightly say, the mind is the standard and not just the mind. The ability to then use the product of the mind to produce the thing that resources your agenda. And that agenda must be people centered. Because ultimately all these things, why do we do them? To make our lives comfortable, that we may realize our potential and have the fullest enjoyment of our circumstances.
- [39:59]
Vusi
Hey, family. I just wanted to say thank you to the 1.7 million of you who are returning viewers on our channel. When they, the team shared that with me, I swear I almost fell off my chair. I was like 1.7 million people who returned to watch the content on the channel. That's just unbelievable. I'm so humbled that you find the content we share valuable. And I promise we're going to do the best we can to keep bringing you content of value. I do have AN Ask though. 66.4% of you that watch the channel have yet to subscribe. You know what would really, really, really help me? I've got a running bet with the team. We want to see if we can get that to below 60%. I need a favor. I need to scroll down the video. You're going to see that bell icon and I need you to press it because then you're going to subscribe and you're going to help me meet my metric. We have some exciting guests we've got planned for you, some incredible guests we've already shot. You would have met Kiss Seam for our first ideas that matter. Plus video format of the content podcast and it's already gone viral. We literally hit 30,000 views within the first day of posting it. No advertising, no marketing. We just put up a link and I said to the team, I think we're onto something here. One of the things I'm very passionate about is making sure we leave the world better than we found it. And that we leave our community better than we found them. So hit the subscribe button and I look forward to sharing more content with you, more insights, more motivation, and just generally helping the world become a better place using this medium. All right, family, we'll talk soon. Cheers. I was sharing with you before we. We started recording that as I have gotten older and a little bit more aware. You know, sometimes they say ignorance is bliss for a reason. Sometimes being aware is such a purse because you begin to see things that you did not see. You begin to experience things that you did not experience. When you and I, I vividly remember when we were in Nigeria together, I think we were invited by our brother, Pastor Poju. I said to him backstage, I said, you know, you call this the platform Nigeria. He said, yeah. I said, this needs to be the platform Africa. And I see he's made that evolution now. And he had our sister Flora from Melvin's Tea in Nairobi. He had her on the program this year. So when I see the minds coming together, it looks like the renaissance is taking place for me. My pain to your point is you fly into Europe, Schengen visa, you land in one place, you catch a train, and you move from Amsterdam to Paris and then Brussels, then back, and nobody's bothering you about how you're migrating. This is the question I have always wanted to ask you. I call this podcast Ideas that Matter, because as I introduced it, I genuinely believe ideas change the world. And as Africans, our experience of the world has been such a hard, physical, labored experience that sometimes we undervalue the power of ideas. That the economic system as it is designed was once an idea. Currency was an idea. The city you live in was an idea. The nation that you call home was an idea that at a point, somebody started with it as an idea and made it real. Here's the question. What is the idea that drives Prof. Lumumba? What's the single thing that at the end of your days, you go, if I can get them to understand this, my job would be done?
- [43:51]
Prof. Lumumba
The idea that drives me is that we are here to make a contribution, to change our lives and by extension, the lives of the communities in which we serve, and we serve in different communities. One of the earliest communities in which you serve is your family. Indeed, how do you impact your family? Is your family the richer because you are born in it, and once you've come out of your family, is your neighborhood the richer because you are part of it, then you get out? Is your country the richer because you are part of it? And are your people as Africans better because you are an African? And ultimately, is humanity better because you are part of humanity?
- [44:41]
Vusi
So good.
- [44:41]
Prof. Lumumba
You cannot solve the problems of the world, but you can make a contribution. And the contribution, as an African is that I would love to see an Africa where we, by dint of the strength of our ideas and minds, we have improved the quality of the largest mass of African people. And when we sit at the dinner table, we are neither the meat to be eaten nor the ones who are eating the crumbs under the table. Nor are we the waiters who serve those who are at the dinner table. That's good. If that were to happen and I was to make a contribution in that regard, then I would be a happy person. And I'm also acutely aware that these things cannot be achieved in one's lifetime many times. So it is intergenerational.
- [45:32]
Vusi
I was hoping you wouldn't say that, because.
- [45:36]
Prof. Lumumba
And that is why one of the greatest things that I think I am participating in is to empower an army of young men and women across the continent. And when I see them being better than me. I attended an inaugural lecture of one of my former students who is now one of the leading tax experts in the world.
- [45:58]
Vusi
Wow.
- [45:59]
Prof. Lumumba
And when I stood to ask her a question at Tiawaris, I said, there is no greater recompense for a teacher than to produce a student who surpasses him or her.
- [46:10]
Mofet
Wow.
- [46:12]
Prof. Lumumba
Wow.
- [46:13]
Vusi
You should strive. Wow.
- [46:15]
Prof. Lumumba
So don't fear that others will be better than you. If they are not better than you, then that is not good.
- [46:21]
Vusi
Because in the same way, parents want their children to be better than them.
- [46:25]
Prof. Lumumba
Yes.
- [46:26]
Vusi
That is so good. Societies should want generations to be better.
- [46:29]
Prof. Lumumba
Absolutely.
- [46:30]
Vusi
That's so good.
- [46:31]
Prof. Lumumba
And you yourself were saying something that was so enlightened when you are speaking and you talked about building walls.
- [46:38]
Vusi
That's right.
- [46:38]
Prof. Lumumba
And one of the things that I picked out of that is that you must collaborate.
- [46:44]
Shaheen
Yes.
- [46:45]
Prof. Lumumba
Don't engage in negative competition.
- [46:47]
Vusi
Yes.
- [46:48]
Prof. Lumumba
Because when you collaborate. I don't know who said it, but he said that it takes. I think it is James Emmons, Kwejir Agri Agri of Africa, that great Ghanaian who said, look at when they play the piano, when you strike the white button only there is no melody. When you strike the black one and you strike them in a coherent and coordinate manner. See how melodious it is?
- [47:15]
Vusi
Good.
- [47:15]
Prof. Lumumba
That is called collaboration.
- [47:17]
Vusi
It's good. It's good. Thank you, Prof. For your time.
- [47:20]
Prof. Lumumba
Thank you.
- [47:21]
Vusi
So what style of martial arts are you?
- [47:23]
Prof. Lumumba
I Started as Shotokan Karateka. Then I went into Taekwondo.
- [47:31]
Vusi
Really?
- [47:32]
Prof. Lumumba
I am a mixed martial artist and believe me or not, I and my teacher are now creating a new art called Nyabund.
- [47:40]
Vusi
Love it, love it, love it. So. So it'll be. It'll be your version of Jeet Kune Do.
- [47:44]
Prof. Lumumba
Yeah, it will be a version.
- [47:46]
Vusi
When I saw. When I saw that you were launching your own style of martial arts, I saw some of the comments that people were making. Yes. And it was pretty clear that these are not people who understand that martial arts is an evolving. Absolutely right. So if you say, you know, if you say Shotokan Tenshin Khan. I did Kyokushin myself.
- [48:02]
Shaheen
Yes.
- [48:02]
Vusi
You can date the time.
- [48:03]
Mofet
Yes.
- [48:04]
Vusi
But over time they have evolved because combat is constantly changing. That's good. That's good, that's good. And have you, have you done any groundwork?
- [48:12]
Prof. Lumumba
Actually, what we are doing now, we are just about to publish the book on philosophy.
- [48:17]
Vusi
Wow.
- [48:17]
Prof. Lumumba
Some of the moves. Wow, wow, wow, wow. The things that, that we are going to use. Remember that people think that martial art is about fighting.
- [48:25]
Vusi
It's not. Not. Yes, that's right.
- [48:27]
Prof. Lumumba
Is. Is about reflection, is about deep philosophy,
- [48:30]
Vusi
and it's conquering yourself.
- [48:32]
Prof. Lumumba
Conquering yourself. If you understand it in that way, then you'll not be thinking that it's about breaking people's noses.
- [48:38]
Vusi
That's right. Yeah, that's right. In fact, it's the restraint not to.
- [48:41]
Prof. Lumumba
Absolutely.
- [48:42]
Vusi
So I'll make you a promise. Yes. As soon as you. You've published.
- [48:45]
Mofet
Yes.
- [48:45]
Vusi
I'd love to be your first student and come and experience a little bit. Awesome. Awesome. I'll see you here. That was our episode with Prof. Hit the subscribe button. Please make sure to follow Prof. He's got a great channel on YouTube. I follow it. And he constantly publishes his own thoughts. You're going to love it. He sits in a studio and he just speaks straight to camera. And I can't recommend it enough. I think if we just take anything from this conversation, it is simply this. You are the right person at the right time for the right season. Cheers. This podcast was proudly brought to you by my growth fund in partnership with Sound and Sounds Media.