Podcast Summary:

Identity/Crisis – Live with Abigail Pogrebin: Holding Hope During a Fragile Peace
Date: October 21, 2025
Host: Abigail Pogrebin
Guests: Rabbi Daniel Hartman and Dr. Yehuda Kurtzer (Co-presidents, Shalom Hartman Institute)

Overview

This episode features a live conversation following a historic week for Israel: the return of living hostages, the beginning of a ceasefire, and tentative steps toward peace. Host Abigail Pogrebin speaks with Rabbi Daniel Hartman and Dr. Yehuda Kurtzer, who reflect on the personal and collective emotions in Israel and the Jewish diaspora, interrogate the political and moral dimensions of the situation, and discuss the challenges and hopes facing both Israeli and American Jewish communities in this transitional moment.

The episode explores themes of cautious optimism, the power of communal solidarity, the complicated gratitude toward political leaders, and the enduring tension around peace, security, and moral responsibility.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Immediate Emotional Responses to Hostage Returns [03:19–08:49]

• Collective Experience in Israel:

  • Yehuda Kurtzer describes how all of Israel was unified in watching the return of hostages. Both mundane activities and profound emotions were shared nationally.
    • “Imagine what it feels like for a whole country to be watching the same thing… it was a day of feeling. You were smiling and laughing and crying.” [03:19]
  • The focus was less on analyzing implications and more on experiencing relief and joy.
    • “It was our family welcoming our children home… it was a day filled with emotions and there was no room for meaning.” [04:30]

• Diaspora and Religious Communities:

  • Rabbi Daniel Hartman describes leading Thanksgiving prayers that, for the first time in two years, he felt sincerely, reflecting a reclaimed sense of celebration.
    • “For the first time in two years, felt like I meant it. Like there was something of a feeling of a joy that was possible.” [05:51]
  • Acknowledges tension between the public nature of hostage reunions and the private needs of families.

2. The Significance of Simchat Torah—Joy, Grief, and Reclamation [07:29–08:49]

• Rabbi Hartman reflects on how the joy commanded on Simchat Torah had been absent amid crisis, but the return of hostages allowed for authentic rejoicing for the first time in years.
  • “For the last two years… I felt a lot of going through the motions.… But really, our hearts are very heavy.”
  • “I’m rejoicing because I’m joyful… I felt it very acutely in our synagogue over the last couple days.” [08:44]

3. Hostage Square: Symbol of Relentless Solidarity [08:49–12:21]

• The persistence of public advocacy for the hostages is celebrated as a uniquely Israeli phenomenon.
  • “This is a remarkable people… This country just stood up and said, we’re sacrificing, we’re willing to die.… But I want to tell you, these people count.” – Rabbi Daniel Hartman [10:17]
• The Jewish imperative of pidyon shvuim (redeeming captives) is cited as a core value.
  • “There is no Judaism and there is no Jewish people if you love Jews in general and you don’t love Jews in particular.” [11:01]

4. The Trump Factor: Gratitude and Complexity [12:21–16:13]

• Ambivalence and Appreciation:

  • Acknowledgement that President Trump brokered the deal leading to the hostage release and ceasefire.
    • “I am okay saying, as much as I oppose a lot of aspects… to appreciate his capacity to make it happen in this situation.” – Yehuda Kurtzer [12:58]
    • “I appreciate these ends. Yes. I’m thrilled that… 20 hostages are home again.” [15:04]
  • Complexity in public gratitude is discussed due to political polarization; the risk for Americans in expressing appreciation for political adversaries.

• Israeli vs. American Perspectives:

  • Rabbi Hartman distinguishes how Trump is perceived as a stalwart friend in Israel—providing direct support and vision absent in Israeli leadership.
    • “President Trump does for Israelis a few things… He gives a sense of unequivocal support. He stands with you, you trust him… he loved us, he appreciated us, he respected us.” [16:26]
  • Trump’s speech is described as the first in years to articulate a vision for Israel’s future.

5. Leadership Vacuum and the Need for Vision [19:21–23:03]

• Israeli political leadership is critiqued for failing to project hope or a path forward; Trump and others (e.g., Witkoff) are noted as rare voices offering honest conversation and empathy.
  • “For two years, the news has been censored, there’s been propaganda. Honest conversation has been absent, and President Trump brought it.” – Rabbi Daniel Hartman [20:33]
• Difference in approaches between Trump and Netanyahu highlighted (Trump as pragmatic visionary vs. Netanyahu’s “war by other means”). [21:19]

6. The Fragility and Challenges of Peace: Cautious Optimism [23:03–29:29]

• Contagion of Hope and Fear:

  • Israelis remain wary due to trauma and skepticism about Palestinian intentions; collective progress is hampered by reticence to hope and fear of disappointment.
    • “We’re traumatized not just by October 7th… we’re frightened to even hope.” – Yehuda Kurtzer [23:35]

• Political Frameworks:

  • Trump’s peace plan is framed as consistent with decades of incremental US policy, focused on frameworks rather than final agreements.
    • “Trump is actually consistent with 30 years of American policy vis a vis the Israelis and Palestinians... the best you can offer is a framework for the process going forward.” [25:00]

• Obstacles: Hostage Bodies and Hamas:

  • Distinction is made between living and deceased hostages; while tragic, the inability to retrieve bodies is not a dealbreaker.
    • “People are taking off their yellow ribbons.… People understand that there’s a difference.” – Rabbi Hartman [27:37]
  • Ongoing Hamas violence and chaos in Gaza threaten to derail progress and breed anxiety.

7. Rituals Marking Transition: Moving Beyond the Hostage Era [30:04–32:30]

• Emotional and communal importance of phasing out rituals (dog tags, hostage prayers) developed during the hostage crisis.
  • “It’s like getting up from shiva or getting up from shloshim to say, I really am leaving this period of time behind and moving to something else.” – Rabbi Daniel Hartman [30:26]
  • New prayers and synagogue rituals evolve to reflect gratitude for return and hope for recovery.

8. Israel’s Standing in the World and Antisemitism [33:38–41:23]

• Perceptions of Isolation:

  • Israelis feel stigmatized and hesitant to travel; concern about the world increasingly viewing Israel as a pariah.
    • “The world feels much smaller and Israelis would like it to be bigger.” – Yehuda Kurtzer [34:21]

• Distinguishing Criticism from Hatred:

  • Importance of discerning between legitimate critique of Israeli policy and underlying antisemitism; examples cited of anti-Jewish activism on US campuses.
    • “We’re going to now see which part is anti Semitic and which part isn’t… a plague on all your houses.” – Rabbi Hartman [34:21]
    • SJP and other organizations openly celebrate figures affiliated with violence, highlighting the persistence of ill will, even as peace resumes.
    • “That’s not a pro peace movement.” – Rabbi Hartman [37:36]

• Silence of Ceasefire Advocates:

  • The lack of acknowledgment or recalibration from those who previously advocated for ceasefire is noted; uncertainty about whether the public discourse will evolve.
    • “I try not to make a lot out of people’s silence. And it’s partly because sometimes I don’t know what to say.” – Rabbi Hartman [39:08]

• American Jewish Divides:

  • The war and global reactions exacerbate rifts within American Jewry: between those doubling down in tribal solidarity and those morally uncomfortable with Israeli policy.
    • “The American Jewish community is in a very precarious position because there is nobody in Israel who’s speaking to it and for it.” – Yehuda Kurtzer [42:01]

9. Abraham Accords and the Elusive Moral Solution [43:26–50:07]

• Limitations of Normalization:
  • Both guests articulate that broader Arab-Israeli normalization (e.g., the Abraham Accords) cannot substitute for grappling with the Palestinian question.
    • “An expanded Abraham Accords is not going to solve that moral discomfort.” [43:30]
    • “The long-term ability for Israelis and Palestinians to live in peace and security next to one another is going to always be connected with the capacity for the Palestinians to have self-determination.” [48:32]
• The tension between security and morality is examined; the risk of “covering up” unresolved injustices is stressed.

10. The Coarsening of Compassion and the Necessity of Hope [50:07–57:26]

• Hardening Attitudes:

  • The war has hardened many Jews’ attitudes, with some expressing fatigue or anger at the possibility of compassion for Palestinians.
    • “I’m kind of done with compassion. I’m done with humanizing the other because they don’t humanize us back.” – Abigail Pogrebin [50:47]
    • Rabbi Hartman responds: “Compassion is not a zero sum game… That empathy is a limitless reservoir. We should be able to think beyond that.” [50:47]
  • A process of trust-building, requiring both time and change in Palestinian society, is described as a prerequisite for peace.

• Optimism as a Practice:

  • Guest Tal Becker’s assertion that “optimism is a practice” is discussed.
    • “You see yourself as responsible for bringing out a better world… the alternative is way worse. Being convinced that things will get worse is a pretty good predictor that it will be.” – Yehuda Kurtzer [54:52]
  • Rabbi Hartman reframes optimism as a self-interested moral practice and as the duty of leaders to help communities imagine better futures, not merely to pander to their fears.
    • “It’s the job of leadership… to remind people what is the best of us and who do we want to be.” [56:26]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Unfiltered Joy Amid Fragility:

  • “You want this to happen. It happened. 20 hostages are home again… We have an obligation to say I appreciate the good when it happens.” – Rabbi Daniel Hartman [15:16]

• On Sustained Vigilance and Solidarity:

  • “This country just stood up and said, we’re sacrificing. We’re willing to die.… But I want to tell you, these people count.” – Rabbi Daniel Hartman [10:17]

• On Perpetual Disappointment and Israeli Caution:

  • “We’re frightened to even hope… Hope. It’s better not to have hoped because the disappointment, to go over that disappointment again…” – Yehuda Kurtzer [23:35]

• On Political Vision and Israeli Leadership:

  • “For two years, the news has been censored, there’s been propaganda. Honest conversation has been absent, and President Trump brought it.” – Rabbi Daniel Hartman [20:33]

• On Ritual, Commemoration, and Transition:

  • “It’s like getting up from shiva or getting up from shloshim… I really am leaving this period of time behind and moving to something else.” – Rabbi Daniel Hartman [30:26]

• On Optimism:

  • “Optimism is a practice… not that you think things are going to get better, but that you see yourself as responsible for bringing out a better world…” – Yehuda Kurtzer [54:52]
  • “It’s not our job to pander to people’s fears… it’s our job to remind people what is the best of us.” – Rabbi Daniel Hartman [56:26]

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Hostage Return & Emotional Reflections – [03:19–08:49]
• Simchat Torah & Joy Reclaimed – [07:29–08:49]
• Hostage Square & Israeli Solidarity – [08:49–12:21]
• Trump, Gratitude, and Complexity – [12:21–16:13]
• Political Vision and the Peace Framework – [19:21–23:03]
• Challenges to Lasting Peace – [23:03–29:29]
• Rituals of Mourning and Closure – [30:04–32:30]
• Israel on the World Stage & Antisemitism – [33:38–41:23]
• American Jewish Tensions – [41:23–43:26]
• Abraham Accords & The Moral Dilemma – [43:26–50:07]
• Compassion Fatigue & Practicing Optimism – [50:07–57:26]

Conclusion

The episode is marked by a tone of hard-won, pragmatic hope. Both guests stress the importance of recognizing moments of joy but acknowledge the fragility of peace, the necessity of tough self-examination, and the imperative for responsible, visionary leadership. They urge both Israeli and American Jews to resist cynicism, recommit to moral clarity, and maintain faith in the future despite daunting realities.