Identity/Crisis Podcast Summary

Episode Title: Power, Liberalism, and Moral Responsibility — with Shadi Hamid
Host: Yehuda Kurtzer, President, Shalom Hartman Institute
Guest: Shadi Hamid, Columnist, Washington Post; Senior Fellow, Georgetown
Date: January 13, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the paradoxes at the heart of liberalism, the exercise of power in democratic societies, and the moral responsibilities of great powers, especially the United States. Host Yehuda Kurtzer and guest Shadi Hamid discuss Hamid’s new book, The Case for American Power: A Liberal Argument for American Global Dominance, against the backdrop of recent U.S. intervention in Venezuela, the legacy of the War on Terror, and American and Israeli policies in the modern era. Together, they probe whether power can be harnessed for moral good, how to constrain its excesses, and what liberalism’s future holds when critics from both left and right assail it.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Liberal Paradox and Power’s Morality

• Opening Frame (00:46–06:35):
  • Liberalism seeks to maximize freedom, yet demands everyone concede some freedom for the collective good.
  • Critics argue that liberalism masks subjugation: “The very effort to construct a liberal society requires not just the balancing of the needs of various people, but the actual subjugation of some to make possible the freedom of others.” — Yehuda Kurtzer (04:30)
  • Both right and left challenge liberalism: the right venerates power often sliding into authoritarianism, while the left exposes liberalism’s foundational injustices and seeks to undo it.
  • Hartman Institute is positioned as “pro-liberal democracy” and “liberal Zionist,” wrestling with Judaism’s complex views of power.

2. American Power and Venezuela

• Shadi’s Position vs. Trump’s Doctrine (06:36–13:05):
  • Hamid distinguishes his vision of American power from Trump's “might makes right” approach:

    “There’s almost an inherent good in domination … and that, to me, is fundamentally immoral, but I think it’s also fundamentally amoral.” — Shadi Hamid (07:12)

  • Trump’s lack of moral framework for intervention in Venezuela is troubling for Hamid. Prior to intervention, the U.S. made moral arguments (e.g., drug trade, oppression) but post-intervention, focus shifted to oil and self-interest.
  • Notable Quote:

    “Some people might say that’s refreshing. I don’t think it’s good because it means there’s no longer a standard upon which to judge what Trump is doing, because he’s not even trying to be better than he actually is.” — Shadi Hamid (08:41)

  • Stephen Miller’s “iron laws of the world” quote exemplifies this raw, unapologetic embrace of power. (09:48)

3. The Value — and Dangers — of Pretending

• Pretending Toward the Good (12:59–14:39):
  • Even when justifications are thin, Hamid values the pretense of morality:

    “As long as we have ideals, then at least we know what we can aspire to. When we give up on the ideals, then we have Trump without any kind of aspirations.” — Shadi Hamid (13:35)

  • Trump “unmasks imperialism,” stripping away any façade of virtue. Without aspirations, there’s no progression, just acceptance of “iron laws.”
  • Liberals strive for a better future, while Trumpism looks to a mythic, powerful past.

4. Personal Political Trajectories and the Iraq War Legacy

• Formative Years and Shift in Perspective (14:39–19:13):
  • Hamid recounts being politicized after 9/11, active in anti-war protests, and deeply critical of American foreign policy.
  • Over time, through the “Freedom Agenda” and U.S. pressure on Arab regimes, he saw potential for American power to promote democracy.

    “My prescriptive lens has changed. I don’t think that we have to accept that America is always bad, forever bad.” — Shadi Hamid (16:54)

  • Warns against “overlearning” the lessons of Iraq and missing morally necessary interventions.

5. Redefining Intervention and American Mission

• Not All Power is Military Power (21:09–24:26):
  • Hamid emphasizes that American power is more than military: diplomacy, aid, and soft power can all advance democracy.
  • Examples given: Bosnia/Kosovo interventions as moral successes; Syria as a tragedy of non-intervention.

    “There are bad interventions like Iraq, but there can also be good interventions. Bosnia in the 1990s … we ended a genocide in Bosnia.” — Shadi Hamid (22:21)

6. Pragmatic Liberal Dominance vs. International Parity

• “First Among Equals” and National Interest (24:26–28:22):
  • Hamid acknowledges the importance of alliances, but insists America will — and should — be “first among equals.”
  • The rise of China is overstated; for the foreseeable future, American dominance is unquestioned.
  • “If you’re a citizen of this country, you’re going to have an inherent bias towards the success of your own country. The idea that we should have a kind of self contempt, a kind of self hatred, I think is a very odd one.” — Shadi Hamid (27:16)
  • Kurtzer pushes back: Must it be dominance, or is safety sufficient? (28:23)

7. The Corrosive Effects and Constraints of Power

• Lust for Power and Moral Restraint (29:38–33:39):
  • The temptation to use power is almost inescapable (“when you’re a hammer, everything else is a nail”).
  • Hamid calls his book an “anguished manifesto,” torn between recognizing the necessity of power and the dangers of wielding it recklessly.

    “Maybe there is this ideal vision in our own minds that could be possible. But in real life, in the real world, America is going to fall short of what we want it to be. And at some level, we have to accept that imperfection.” — Shadi Hamid (32:59)

  • Religion and “accountability to God” might serve as checks on power, though Kurtzer notes that religious conviction more often justifies power than constrains it. (34:59)

8. The Israel/Gaza Challenge and the Limits of American Power

• Wrestling with Gaza and Moral Complexity (34:59–43:24):
  • Hamid, having written most of his book before October 7th, describes the Gaza War as a decisive, traumatizing event.
  • Criticizes America’s failure to constrain Israel’s actions:

    “We could have used American power to stop the atrocities that Israel was committing… The war didn’t have to be as brutal as it was and it didn’t have to go as long as it did and not all those Palestinians had to die.” — Shadi Hamid (36:49)

  • Kurtzer sympathizes, noting that different traumas—Gaza for Hamid and October 7th for many Jews—fuel radically different moral stances.
  • The challenge: distinguishing morally legitimate from excessive uses of power in the fog of war.

9. Hope, Pragmatism, and a Liberal Zionist Space

• On Partnership, Pressure, and Political Reality (43:24–47:23):
  • Hamid advocates for continued partnership with Israel but calls for “tough love,” leveraging America’s dominant position to enforce moral restraint.

    “Can we put pressure on our allies? Can we say, hey guys, we’ve been friends for a long time, we got your back … but that doesn’t mean you can do anything you want to the Gazan people.” — Shadi Hamid (44:26)

  • He rejects both calls for abandoning Israel or for a binational state, describing himself as a pragmatic two-state supporter.
  • Kurtzer notes the irony: Hamid’s nuanced, liberal approach remains out-of-step both with hard-left critics and with current Israeli government, yet is deeply needed —

    “Your argument may wind up being able to be useful to advance a vision of a world where … the ideas themselves are compatible with that worldview.” — Yehuda Kurtzer (45:46)

  • Hamid welcomes his arguments being used by liberal Zionists, acknowledging he’s used to “fitting in an uncomfortable space.”

Memorable Quotes and Moments

• “That sense of gratitude … and to see it wither away, I don’t know, it feels babyish to me. Has very little historical awakening, I guess.”
  — Yehuda Kurtzer (28:32), on Jewish American gratitude for America

• “America is made up of individuals … If we elected someone like Bernie Sanders, then presumably America would have a different foreign policy … This idea that America is one thing always is something that I want to resist.”
  — Shadi Hamid (16:53)

• “We know that unfettered freedom needs to be balanced by some level of wisdom and judiciousness… If it’s a choice between us and [China], then the choice should be clear.”
  — Shadi Hamid (26:30)

• “The trickiest part of power is that once you get a taste of it, you recognize you’re a hammer and everything else is a nail.”
  — Yehuda Kurtzer (31:18)

Important Segment Timestamps

• Opening and frame-setting on liberalism and power: 00:46–06:35
• Venezuela and Trump’s attitude to power: 06:36–13:05
• Pretending morality and its value: 12:59–14:39
• Personal and generational legacy of Iraq/war: 14:39–19:29
• Recalibrating intervention, power is more than military: 21:09–24:26
• America “first among equals” and critique of self-contempt: 25:37–28:23
• Lust for power, religious constraints, anguish of imperfect world: 31:18–34:59
• Gaza, American leverage over Israel: 34:59–43:24
• Realistic liberal Zionist partnership: 43:24–47:23

Conclusion

This episode offers an honest, sometimes anguished meditation on the uses and abuses of power by liberal democracies, especially in times of crisis. Shadi Hamid and Yehuda Kurtzer model a kind of dialogue that navigates moral complexity, trauma, and the need for aspiring toward the good—even when that means living uneasily with imperfection. The discussion leaves listeners with urgent questions about what ideals constrain power, whether pretending to virtue matters, and how liberals can persist amid global cynicism.

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