Podcast Summary: What Broke the Black–Jewish Alliance? with Terence Johnson
Podcast: Identity/Crisis, Shalom Hartman Institute
Host: Yehuda Kurtzer
Guest: Professor Terence Johnson, Harvard Divinity School
Date: December 2, 2025

Main Theme

This episode investigates the breakdown of the historic alliance between Black and Jewish Americans. Host Yehuda Kurtzer and Professor Terence Johnson examine the myths, historical moments, shifting narratives, societal changes, and current events—particularly post-October 7th, 2023—impacting both communities. They explore questions of vulnerability, power, identity, and what meaningful partnership could look like today.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Myth and Reality of a "Heyday" (08:36–11:30)

• The Nostalgic Narrative: There’s a prevalent myth, especially within the Jewish community, of a golden age in Black–Jewish relations, often centered on the Civil Rights Movement.
• Johnson's View: Johnson cautions against overstating this heyday, noting the alliance was often among political elites and mostly over specific issues (voting rights, economic equity). The relationship was always “asymmetrical” and never as unified as remembered.
• Key Moment—1967: Johnson points to the Six Day War as a rupture in this relationship, particularly among leadership, though Kurtzer questions whether broader social changes in America did more to widen the gap.

"For African Americans, [there’s] a sense in which the allyship ended decades ago. And because we don't live together, we don't really know you. And so we often see you as a part of the system as a part of the power structure."
—Terence Johnson (09:04)

2. The Exodus Narrative and Diverging Aspirations (11:31–18:28)

• Dual “Two Homes” Story: Jews find deep meaning in feeling “at home” in both America and Israel; for many black Americans, the sense of “homelessness” and longing persists.
• Moral Covenant and Utopian Ideals: Historically, both communities were bound by a “moral covenant,” rooted in the Exodus narrative. The perceived failure of this covenant during and after 1967—when Black Americans saw Israel through a new, postcolonial lens—was deeply felt.
• The Generational Shift: Older black leaders were inspired by Israel and Zionism; younger generations, especially on college campuses, are more critical, focusing on questions of occupation and justice for neighbors.

"For African Americans...this idea of a people and of institutions living up to its ideals, it's been constant...even people talk about, 'Oh, you're always criticizing America.' Well, you criticize America...because you are striving towards something better.”
—Terence Johnson (16:03)

3. The Pitfalls of Mythology and Power Narratives (18:29–23:27)

• Danger in Symbolism: Kurtzer worries that Jews are seen as exemplars of shifting societal ills—powerlessness or colonialism—making them perpetual scapegoats.
• Afropessimism: Johnson describes this school of thought, which sees the West as constructed on anti-blackness, and how its critiques can sometimes objectify Jews or hyperfocus on Israel while ignoring other global injustices.
• Athletes and Intellectuals as Flashpoints: High-profile incidents of antisemitism from black athletes or entertainers often tie back to issues of power and mimicry, while academic critiques apply postcolonial and moral “purity” lenses that reject nuance.

“Usually two men fighting over something, and it's often around power... this desire to want to emulate what they think of as actually wielding power in the world.”
—Terence Johnson (20:03)

4. Competing Stories of Vulnerability (23:28–27:52)

• Differing “Trauma Translations”: Visits to civil rights sites (e.g., Selma, Montgomery) clarify Black vulnerability in America, while Jewish vulnerability is often rooted in the Holocaust. For many, the Holocaust no longer resonates as an explanatory or connective narrative.
• Imbalance in Sympathy: There’s a greater public familiarity and empathy for Black suffering than for Jewish trauma, which often goes unrecognized or unpublicized.

“There’s no real understanding of Jewish history and what one might call the afterlives of the Holocaust… we don’t see those kinds of headlines… but we regularly see the pain and the bloodshed of African Americans.”
—Terence Johnson (25:39)

5. Storytelling, Archives, and Primary Sources (27:53–31:42)

• Limits of the Black Archive: The Black historical narrative is missing much firsthand material due to the erasure and trauma of slavery. Novels like Toni Morrison’s Beloved become stand-ins for foundational sources.
• Contrast with Jewish Narrative: Jews have scriptural and testimonial sources stretching millennia, shaping a fundamentally different way of mapping and sharing communal trauma.

“It becomes a different type of studying people when one is studying novels… Morrison really gets credit for bringing in this broader conversation around enslavement.”
—Terence Johnson (28:58)

6. Otherness and the Fragile Middle (31:43–38:16)

• Afro-Pessimism’s Limits: Kurtzer connects the Black experience of being “the Other” with Jews’ own historic European othering. He raises concern that recent antisemitism might only prompt Jews to seek allyship when threatened.
• Contemporary Focus: Johnson emphasizes that for most Black Americans, Jewish issues are peripheral. Primary anxieties are around voting rights, a return to “Jim Crow”-like conditions, and political marginalization.

"…I’m not sure, other than that horrible event [Oct 7], that African Americans are thinking about—well, are Jews the other?...They're really thinking, okay, how do we deal with this kind of resurgence of what appears to be a resurgence of reconstruction or a resurgence of Jim Crow."
—Terence Johnson (33:21)

7. The Wave and Retreat of Solidarity (38:17–44:19)

• 2020 and the “Movement for Black Lives”: The George Floyd moment brought an apparent groundswell for Black justice, with liberals joining but quickly retreating as political discomfort grew.
• DE&I as Insufficient: Institutional responses focused on Diversity, Equity & Inclusion, but deep, structural change was elusive; fear of performativity and backlash led to disillusionment.
• Call for Stronger Conversation Spaces: Both agree on the need for more spaces for robust, honest dialogue on antisemitism and racism, going beyond window-dressing.

“We need stronger kinds of institutions to allow for more robust conversations, to kind of deal with the intimate issues that obviously go back to the Holocaust, but also deal with ongoing otherness…”
—Terence Johnson (40:20)

8. Personal and Communal Memory (44:19–46:46)

• Thanksgiving Reflections: Kurtzer invites Johnson to reflect on Thanksgiving using Frederick Douglass’ famous Fourth of July speech as a model. Johnson sees Thanksgiving as a moment of gratitude and remembrance, but also as a time to reckon with the country’s bloody origins—a “mixed sort of day.”

“It’s a mixed sort of day. On the one hand, I’m always grateful… [it is] also a reminder of our bloody creation in this country...it’s our job to come to terms with and to wrestle with it.”
—Terence Johnson (45:45)

9. What Should Blacks and Jews “Do” Together? (46:47–50:58)

• Dialogue and Self-Critique: Johnson urges for more intimate, vulnerable conversations where communities can share self-criticisms, build trust, and tackle difficult issues.
• Distinctive Black Self-Critique: He describes longstanding traditions of self-scrutiny in Black spaces (churches, HBCUs, art, music), noting that this self-reflection could be a model for deeper communal healing.
• Beyond Stereotypes: He encourages a revaluation of nation-states and power, using Obama’s presidency as an example of both advancement and limitations.

“I want us to be able to have these kinds of intimate conversations in order then to grapple with what is so challenging. In part, we can't have hard conversations because I think we both think that the other is going to... put a knife in our back.”
—Terence Johnson (47:27)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “For African Americans, a sense in which the allyship ended decades ago. And because we don't live together, we don't really know you.”
  —Terence Johnson (09:04)

• “There was this kind of utopic vision...But for people who don't have a land and who don't have economic power, in a strange way...that idealism...remains very, very strong.”
  —Terence Johnson (12:52)

• “It’s not about a competition, and these things aren’t supposed to line up.”
  —Yehuda Kurtzer (24:18)

• “Athletes and people in the entertainment field are often driving the tension and attention apart because of what they might see as a lack…and there’s also this kind of purists around the intellectuals.”
  —Terence Johnson (21:14)

• “There’s a greater public familiarity and empathy for Black suffering than for Jewish trauma, which often goes unrecognized or unpublicized.”
  —Paraphrase of Terence Johnson (25:39)

• “It becomes a different type of studying people when one is studying novels…Morrison really gets credit for bringing in this broader conversation.”
  —Terence Johnson (28:58)

• “What to the black American is Thanksgiving?...It's a mixed sort of day...a reminder of our kind of bloody creation in this country.”
  —Terence Johnson (45:45)

• “I want us to be able to have these kinds of intimate conversations…because I think we both think that the other is going to, in some ways, put a knife in our back.”
  —Terence Johnson (47:27)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:00 – Kurtzer’s intro and SAPIR debate context
• 08:35 – Johnson on the breakdown of the alliance post-1967
• 11:31 – Exploration of the Exodus narrative and divergence
• 16:03 – The roots of perpetual criticism and aspiration
• 18:28 – Danger in viewing Jews primarily as symbols of power or victimhood
• 20:03 – Afropessimism and the pitfalls of mythologizing
• 23:28 – Vulnerability narratives and the limitations of the Holocaust story
• 27:53 – Limits of the Black historical archive and storytelling
• 31:43 – The question of Otherness in American society
• 35:05 – Issues driving Black political anxiety in 2025
• 38:16 – The rise and fall of 2020 racial justice solidarity
• 44:19 – Reflections on Thanksgiving and the meaning of American rituals
• 46:47 – What should Blacks and Jews actually “do” together?
• 50:58 – Closing thanks

Conclusion

The episode ultimately underscores the need for honest, vulnerable, and ongoing conversation between Black and Jewish communities—not nostalgia for a mythic past, nor recrimination over power or purity. Instead, Johnson and Kurtzer urge building relationships rooted in shared struggle, self-critique, and empathy for both communities’ unique histories and aspirations. The way forward is found not in simplistic alliances, but in the hard, sometimes uncomfortable work of mutual recognition and honest storytelling.