He's Just Not That Into You

Summary

Podcast Summary: If Books Could Kill – "He's Just Not That Into You"

Release Date: July 31, 2025
Hosts: Michael Hobbes & Peter Shamshiri
Podcast Description: Exploring airport bestsellers that captivated our hearts and clouded our minds.

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Introduction

In the episode titled "He's Just Not That Into You", hosts Michael Hobbes and Peter Shamshiri delve into one of the early 2000s' most influential dating self-help books by Greg Barent and Liz Tuccillo. The discussion navigates through the book's core premises, its reception, and the subsequent movie adaptation, all while maintaining their signature humorous and critical tone.

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Initial Banter: Beverage Centers and Mini Fridges [00:00 – 02:17]

The episode kicks off with a lighthearted conversation about beverage centers, modern upgrades to traditional mini fridges.
Peter: "I just ordered a beverage center which is what they're calling mini fridges. Fancy mini fridges." [00:00]
Michael: "Is it like WI fi enabled or some shit? And it reports to you when you need like White claw." [00:15]

This segment sets a playful tone, showcasing the hosts' chemistry and penchant for poking fun at modern gadgets.

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Introducing "He's Just Not That into You" [02:17 – 03:07]

Transitioning from appliances to literature, Michael introduces the book:
Michael: "This is one of the most popular dating books of the 2000s. It sold a million copies, the authors were on Oprah four times. We had to cover it eventually." [04:40]

Peter reflects on the book's premise:
Peter: "All I know is that this is the first book we've done where the title is advice that every single person in my life needs to hear." [02:22]

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Book Structure and Key Concepts [03:07 – 07:26]

Michael critiques the book's balance:
Michael: "It's giving simplistic, generic advice... It knows it's simplistic and doesn't pretend it will be a phrase used in other areas of your life." [06:33]

Peter suggests a more interactive approach, which Michael counters:
Peter: "My idea was to weave in listeners' relationship problems... but you rejected it." [04:03]
Michael: "There's no way to do that without becoming the Thing that you're critiquing." [04:36]

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Deep Dive into Book Chapters [07:26 – 43:45]

Critique of Specific Chapters:

1. Chapter 1: He's Just Not That Into You If He's Not Asking You Out [13:22 – 14:23]
   Michael: "If a guy is showing signs of disinterest, he's probably just not interested. The authors don't overcomplicate it."
   Peter: "He's selfish, a bully, or a freak. No need for accountability." [16:03]

2. Chapter 2: If He's Not Calling You [25:18 – 26:21]
   Peter: "If he can't call you when he says he will, he's not interested. Building love on unreliable communication is futile."
   Michael: "Busy doesn't mean better. Two-week wait? Not that into you." [25:40]

3. Chapter 5: If He's Having Sex with Someone Else [34:02 – 34:05]
   Peter & Michael: Brief acknowledgment of infidelity as a clear sign of disinterest.

4. Chapter 6: If He Only Wants to See You When He's Drunk [34:41 – 36:34]
   Michael: "Good advice to question relationships built around alcohol. Greg includes his own recovery experience."
   Peter: Agrees it's legitimate advice but critiques its framing within the book's premise.

5. Chapter 8: If He's Breaking Up with You [35:08 – 36:34]
   Michael: "Don't get back with someone who dumps you. Better move on."
   Peter: Highlights the insensitivity in advice for severe relationship breakdowns.

6. Chapter 11: If He's Married [42:34 – 43:45]
   Peter: Mocking scenarios where women date married men, emphasizing the absurdity of Greg's advice.

Notable Quotes:

• Peter: "He's socially deprived." [01:46]
• Michael: "You're not into me, you're just stuck in the perpetual single cycle." [28:55]
• Peter: "He's just not that into you. Here's the truth." [16:48]

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Reception and Critical Analysis [43:45 – 47:50]

Michael and Peter discuss the book's reception, noting the lack of mainstream critical reviews but referencing a particularly scathing one from The New York Times:
Reviewer: "There's something wildly condescending about the image of women as helpless creatures..." [45:42]

Michael: "The book is pitched at women because they buy most self-help dating books." [47:33]
Peter: Critiques the book's patronizing tone and unrealistic scenarios, highlighting its post-feminist undertones.

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Movie Adaptation Critique [47:50 – 56:53]

The hosts shift focus to the 2009 film adaptation, mocking its execution:
Michael: "The movie repeats the trope that the phrase was pushing back against."
Peter: "It's like a 2 hour and 15 minute long movie filled with wildly underdeveloped characters." [50:35]

They highlight specific scenes that undermine the book's premise, portraying female characters as overly naive and men as uninterested or manipulative, thus perpetuating harmful stereotypes.

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Author's Journey and Aftermath [56:53 – 59:39]

Michael provides insight into Greg Barent's career trajectory post-book:
Michael: "He couldn't go back to stand-up comedy because his fans saw him as a sellout. This led to a decade-long opioid addiction crisis." [58:43]

Peter: "Airport bestsellers ruin the life of any good faith person who does them." [59:39]

The discussion underscores the personal toll that sudden fame from a bestselling book can have on an author's life and career.

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Conclusion

In "He's Just Not That Into You," Michael and Peter deliver a thorough critique of both the book and its film adaptation, emphasizing the oversimplification of complex relationship dynamics and the perpetuation of outdated, post-feminist narratives. Through sharp humor and incisive analysis, they reveal the pitfalls of airport bestsellers that promise clarity in the tangled web of modern romance but often deliver condescension and unrealistic expectations instead.

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Notable Quotes:

1. Peter: "He's just not that into you. Here's the truth." [16:48]
2. Michael: "It's giving simplistic, generic advice... It knows it's simplistic and doesn't pretend it will be a phrase used in other areas of your life." [06:33]
3. Peter: "Airport bestsellers ruin the life of any good faith person who does them." [59:39]

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This episode serves as a critical examination of one of the most popular dating manuals, dissecting its advice, societal implications, and the real-life consequences faced by its author. Listeners gain insights into the dynamics of self-help literature and its impact on both individuals and broader cultural narratives.

Transcript

[Peter]

I just ordered a beverage center which is what they're calling mini fridges. Fancy mini fridges.

[Michael]

Oh, the beverage centers.

[Peter]

I feel like maybe what's happening is that they realize that if you say mini fridge that people will be like, well then why is it $2,000?

[Michael]

Is it like WI fi enabled or some shit? And it reports to you when you need like White claw.

[Peter]

So first of all, some of them are.

[Michael]

Why would you want that on anything?

[Peter]

I get a fucking push note notification when my dehumidifier fills up. But anyway, you're like, but I will say they of them in a vacuum. Cool. Like it's got different temperature controls for the different levels. The bottom level is a wine rack. And so like there's a little wine rack and then there's stuff for your sodas and beers.

[Michael]

Are you talking yourself into getting this?

[Peter]

Oh, no, I already got it.

[Michael]

Really? You spent $500 on a fucking mini fridge?

[Peter]

It's not just the mini fridge.

[Michael]

Oh my God.

[Peter]

You can put something that's like out of place, garbage looking, or you can get something decent and it's really expensive. That's basically the choice they put in front of you.

[Michael]

I have been recording this whole time. I'm put segment in the show unedited.

[Peter]

Feel free. People should know that I'm bougie. You know by now. If you don't know by now, he.

[Michael]

Moves to New Jersey, look what happens to him.

[Peter]

The brands and shit they have. Like, by the way, we have, oh my God, when we moved in, there's a drawer microwave. You know the kind that like you. It's like in the lower part of the cabinet and you press a button and it comes out like a drawer.

[Michael]

What? I didn't even know this existed.

[Peter]

This is big in our area, okay? Breaks like day one. Every time I pass like the microwave section at Trader Joe's, I'm like, that'd be nice, but it's not the life I live anymore. Which by the way, I have to.

[Michael]

Say, like, oh my God, you keep saying by the way. We've been doing this for 45 minutes.

[Peter]

Fine, let's go, let's go.

[Michael]

Zing us, zing us, zing us.

[Peter]

I'm socially deprived.

[Michael]

You're postponing as we now have to talk about the stupid fucking book.

[Peter]

All right, yeah, but what is my zinger?

[Michael]

You could have spent 45 minutes thinking of one.

[Peter]

Don't pretend that the whole 45 minutes was a waste, Michael. I think it was great we caught up a little bit. We talked about Merch. We had some good chats. You're just upset that you're learning about my life and you don't care about it.

[Michael]

No, I'm upset that I learned about a whole new appliance category. A fake appliance category.

[Peter]

Two drawer microwaves and beverage centers. All right, let's do it. Let's do it.

[Michael]

All right.

[Peter]

All right.

[Michael]

Peter. Michael, what do you know about he's just not that into you?

[Peter]

All I know is that this is the first book we've done where the title is advice that every single person in my life needs to hear.

[Michael]

Usually we start the episode by saying the full title of the book, but the full title of this book has changed. When it first came out in 2004, it was called He's Just not that into you, Colonial, your Daily Wake Up Call. And then in association with the movie, in 2009, it was re released as He's Just not that into youo. The no Excuses Truth to Understanding Guys.

[Peter]

Okay.

[Michael]

It is by Greg Barent and Liz Ticillo, two writers on the show Sex and the City. Before we get into this, we have to talk a little bit about my, like, existential crisis with this episode. You had an existential crisis doing Blink because you were like, this is, like, actually kind of a good book. We might have to just like something on the show.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Michael]

My core problem with this is that this book is not bad enough to dunk on, but it's not good enough to learn anything. It's in the sort of 60 degree day category.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Michael]

So I do still have 74 pages of notes, but I'm not like, this might not be a classic if post could kill episode.

[Peter]

Tune out, folks.

[Michael]

You know, they say good albums are like, no skips. This might be a skip.

[Peter]

Way back when, we talked about this book and all we knew about it was the title. And all I could think and all you could think was like, that's definitely some advice that some people need to hear.

[Michael]

It's very reasonable advice for a very specific scenario. Yes.

[Peter]

And so my idea for this episode, which you rejected, was we solicit people's relationship problems and weave them in. And then, you know, someone is like, hey, this guy said that he wanted to meet me at the restaurant. And then he never came. And then he texted me that I'm a bitch, should I see him tomorrow? And then we're just like, girl, no.

[Michael]

But that's why I didn't want to do it is because there's no way to do that without becoming the Thing that you're critiquing.

[Peter]

Folks, sound off in the comments. Do you want that episode? I know you do.

[Michael]

It was sort of inevitable that we would cover this book because this is one of the most popular dating books of the 2000s. Like, it became a, I guess, popular movie. It sold a million copies. The authors were on Oprah four times. We had to cover it eventually. People are always requesting it. And the only thing that is interesting about this book is that for what it is. Right. It's a pithy phrase. It is advice that is reasonable in a very narrow range of circumstances, but would be ridiculous if you tried to universalize it. This book is basically as good as it can be. I think, first of all, it starts with a correct premise. If you're in the early stages of seeing somebody and you're getting quote, unquote, mixed signals, they're probably not mixed signals. The person is probably just kind of meh about you. It's better to just assume that this person is not a great match for you and you should move on to somebody else. I think that's, like, completely reasonable. The other good thing about it is that, like, the authors of the book do not pretend to have any insight or expertise. Like, the sort of running joke throughout the book is like, we're just two random people giving you advice. You shouldn't listen to us. They're not pretending. This is, like, clinical advice.

[Peter]

Yeah. I also feel like it's probably pretty weird for them because it sounds like they are television writers and comedians who came up with this idea. They were like, this is marketable. Right. Someone was like, you should write a book. And they were like, yeah, let's write a book. And then all of a sudden, you're on Oprah pretending to be a dating expert.

[Michael]

Exactly.

[Peter]

Nothing like that's ever happened to us. But I could see our careers spiraling out of control like that.

[Michael]

Based on the pre zing segment of this episode, Peter, you're about to become an applian guru.

[Peter]

That's right.

[Michael]

You're about to start giving kitchen advice to people.

[Peter]

Ask me about any appliance, I'll tell you how much it costs.

[Michael]

The other. But the other thing that I think is responsible about this book is that, like, obviously the he's just not that into you concept is like, a very narrow piece of advice. But also, the book does not try to universalize it.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Michael]

It doesn't have a chapter on he's just not that into you in politics. He's just not that into you at.

[Peter]

Work here's how he's just not that into you. Explains the fall of the Soviet Union.

[Michael]

It's giving simplistic, generic advice. But at least it sort of seems to know that it's giving simplistic, generic advice and not pretending that this is gonna like, become a phrase that you use in other areas of your life.

[Peter]

I got really distracted there because you said it's giving and I thought you were using it in like the Gen Z way.

[Michael]

It's giving.

[Peter]

I thought you were being like, it's giving simplistic advice. You know what I mean?

[Michael]

Not you giving simplistic advice. And then the other thing that I like about it, and this is more, I think, subtle, and it doesn't give any self improvement tips. Like it's geared at women, but it doesn't say, like, here's how to lose 10 pounds or here's how to act on a date so that he likes you.

[Peter]

That's actually. That's pretty cool.

[Michael]

It's literally just like, if a guy sucks, walk away.

[Peter]

Yeah, respect yourself, hon. I like that.

[Michael]

And so compared to like, for example, the rules, which was like, pretend that he's funny so that he likes you or like all these weird manipulation tactics.

[Peter]

Every time I walk back through the catalog of like, dating advice books on this show, we're talking about the game, the rules, the Steve Harvey book, and this.

[Michael]

And Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus.

[Peter]

Oh, my God. I mean, this is such a clear winner just based on the title alone.

[Michael]

Although, Peter, I think one thing I should stress is that, like, I'm giving this book a lot of credit. This book is as good as a book like this can be. However, it is very bad.

[Peter]

Right?

[Michael]

This is an abysmal book. So we are going to dive into the introduction of the book. We begin in the right room for Sex and the City. The writer's room at the time was seven women, two gay men, and Greg, the only straight guy in the room.

[Peter]

King keep repping brother.

[Michael]

And so they're sitting around talking about dating dilemmas. Apparently a lot of the plot lines on the show came out of the female writers, like actual sort of dating peccadillos in New York.

[Peter]

And Greg's just sitting there the whole time being like, are you fucking kidding me, ladies?

[Michael]

This is exactly what happens. So one woman is describing, like, a guy that she went on a date with and she's doing this thing of like, I'm getting mixed signals. He said this, but I don't know. And the women in the room are doing this Thing that I think is very typical of friends. When you're describing your dating problems, they're like, oh my God, you're so fabulous. He totally likes you. He's just afraid. He's not calling because he's worried about intimacy. They're kind of making excuses for this guy, right?

[Peter]

You're trying to be nice to your friend, but actually you're pushing them further into a shitty dynamic.

[Michael]

We finally get to Greg's advice. So why don't. Here, I'll send this to you. Why don't I be the woman and you can be Greg?

[Peter]

That makes sense.

[Michael]

I knew you were gonna make a little quip there. So she says, greg, you're a guy.

[Peter]

She's very observant, this one. For I am indeed a guy.

[Michael]

So I've been seeing this guy. Well, I think I have.

[Peter]

I know the answer.

[Michael]

See, we went to a movie and it was great. I mean, he didn't hold my hand, but that's cool. I don't like to hold hands.

[Peter]

Still know the answer.

[Michael]

But afterward, he kissed me in the parking lot. So I asked if he wanted to come over, but he had a really important meeting in the morning, so he didn't come over.

[Peter]

So I ask, have you heard from him?

[Michael]

Well, that's the thing. This was like a week ago. And then today he emails me and is like, why haven't I heard from you?

[Peter]

This superstar of a woman is confused about a situation that to me is so clear. Actually, confused is the wrong word because she's too smart for that. She's hopeful, not confused. But the situation is hopeless. So I break the news to her. He's just not that into you. It's the name of the book.

[Michael]

He said it.

[Peter]

And let me tell you, that's the good news. Because wasting time with the wrong person is. Is just time wasted. And when you do move on and find your right person, believe me, you're not gonna wish you had gotten to spend more time with Stinky the time waster. Or Freddy can't remember to call.

[Michael]

This is apparently in the room seen as like a revelation.

[Peter]

And this is why you need straight men in the writer's room.

[Michael]

Exactly.

[Peter]

We need to be at the table.

[Michael]

So this then becomes a plotline on Sex and the City. So we are going to watch it. So he kissed me goodnight at the door. I invited him up. He couldn'. He had an early meeting. We kissed again and he said he'd call. Two kisses.

[Peter]

Very promising.

[Michael]

You think even though he didn't come off. Definitely. It means he likes you, but he wants to take it slow. That's nice. Burger. What do you think? Really want to know? Please. I would love to have a man's opinion for a change.

[Peter]

All right, I'm not gonna sugarcoat it for you.

[Michael]

He's just not that into you. Boom. That's not true. Don't listen to him. No, no. I'm intrigued. Elaborate.

[Peter]

God, the way they talk.

[Michael]

I'm sorry, but when a guy's really into you, he's coming upstairs meeting or no meeting. Oh, that is ludicrous. What about extenuating circumstances? What about you're stressed out, you're on deadline, you have a migraine. Or a lot of guys are afraid of getting their feelings hurt and they don't want to ruin a friendship. Or they're freaked out by their own feelings. There's a lot of push, pull out there. A lot mixed of. Yeah, I'd have to say that's all code for he's just not that India. I'm sorry, but with guys, it's very simple.

[Peter]

If we're into you, we're coming upstairs.

[Michael]

We're booking the next date. There are no mixed messages. No mixed messages. But I've spent my whole life deciphering mixed messages. I've made a whole career of it. Wow. He's just not that into me. It really. This scene really feels like it was written by a man.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Where all of the women are like, wow, this man is so wise.

[Peter]

Yeah. You're trying to. Trying to introduce the idea that women are overthinking it and men have this insight into our own actions that would blow the female mind if it had access to it.

[Michael]

And you also see the kind of the essentialism that we're going to get more into, where he's like, if he likes you, he's coming upstairs. And like, I am 43. If it is past, like, 9:30, I'm not coming upstairs. That has nothing to do with whether or not I'm into you. That's like, I'm sleepy. That part, I think, is a little silly. Although he said, like, he's booking the next. Like, if I'm into somebody, I'll be like, oh, I don't want to come upstairs. But, like, what are you doing next Wednesday?

[Peter]

This guy's like, hey, I have a job. And he's like, I don't think so, dude. I don't think so.

[Michael]

So according to Liz, she then says that this. This insight is so deep that Greg should spin this into a book. So then a couple years later we get the book, He's Just not that into youo. And we're just gonna talk a little bit about the structure of it. Because this book, like all of our books, is like mostly filler.

[Peter]

It's very obvious that we have learned the lesson that can be gleaned from this book.

[Michael]

At this point in the two minute scene that we just watched, you really don't need anything else.

[Peter]

The whole lesson is like, in the early stages of a relationship, if a guy is showing signs of disinterest, then he's disinterested. Right. And don't overthink it.

[Michael]

One of the things he doesn't say in the book, but I think is a useful way to think about this, is that if you think of the people that you have not been into in your life, this actually falls into place really easily. Yeah, some people are just not that into it. It's not that they did anything wrong.

[Peter]

Right. And also it might not be 100 disinterest. It's just sort of like, yeah, they're fine, you know?

[Michael]

So the way that the book is structured is every chapter is a reason that he's just not that into you. So chapter one is, he's just not that into you if he's not asking you out.

[Peter]

Okay.

[Michael]

Greg writes the bulk of the book. So Greg starts with like a little opening paragraph.

[Peter]

Many women have said to me, greg, men run the world. Wow, that makes us sound pretty capable. So tell me, why would you think we could be incapable of something as simple as picking up the phone and asking you out? You seem to think at times that we're too shy or we just got out of something. Let me remind you, men find it very satisfying to get what they want, particularly after a difficult day of running the world. If we want you, we will find you.

[Michael]

That's like the little kind of manifesto of the chapter 80% of this book. So the rest of the chapter is a series of letters from women who are having dilemmas. So like, dear Greg, here's my dilemma. And then he answers them. But it says in the foreword to the book that these letters are fake. So Greg is writing hypothetical letters from women writing to him because he's not a dating guru at this time, right before the book comes out. So people are not writing him letters being like, Dear Greg.

[Peter]

Right. This isn't like where Steve Harvey has a radio show where he can pull examples from.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Peter]

But I will say, based on the examples from Steve Harvey's radio show, whatever Greg can make up is less Embarrassing than the reality of human existence.

[Michael]

So for this episode, I will be the women, I will be the letter writers, and you can be Greg, giving me no nonsense advice.

[Peter]

We won't be doing any subversion, folks.

[Michael]

No, exactly. No. We're just fully. We're leaning into it. We're doing it. The first letter is. This is titled the Maybe he doesn't want to ruin the friendship. Excuse me. She says, dear Greg, I have this friend that I've known platonically for about 10 years. He lives in a different city and recently he was in town for work. So we met for dinner. All of a sudden it felt like we were on a date. He was completely flirting with me. He even said to me as he was checking me out, so what, you're working the whole model thing now? We both agree that we should get together soon. Well, Greg, I'm disappointed because it's been two weeks and he hasn't called me. Can I call him? He might be nervous about turning the friendship into romance. Can I give him a nudge? And then here's Greg. Greg, like makes up like a mean little nickname for all of the women that he makes up.

[Peter]

Dear friendly girl.

[Michael]

Boom. Got her.

[Peter]

He's just not that into you. Here's the truth. Guys don't mind messing up a friendship if it could lead to sex. Whether it be a fuck buddy situation or a meaningful romance. Go find someone that lives in your zip code who will be rocked to the core by your deep conversation and model looks. I hate to tell you, but that whole I don't want to ruin the friendship excuse is a racket. It works so well because it seems so wise. Sex could mess up a friendship. Unfortunately, in the entire history of mankind, that excuse has never, ever been used by someone who actually means it. If we're friends with someone and attracted to them, we're going to want to take it further. And please don't tell me he's just scared. The only thing he's scared of, and I say this with a lot of love, is how not attracted to you he is.

[Michael]

It's a little mean at the end. You didn't really have to do that.

[Peter]

Even though there's person does not exist, I feel like it's a little condescending to be like, you know, you've got model looks and deep conversation. However, he thinks you're busted. Like this is.

[Michael]

He does stack the deck sometimes. Sometimes he writes like the dumbest email imaginable and he's like, you're pretty dumb.

[Peter]

He's like, yeah, Greg, Fake person. He's just. This is sort of. This is the equivalent of like. Like a political TikTok where they strawman the dumbest fucking political opponent. And you can just watch them as they're doing it, get angry at this person who doesn't exist.

[Michael]

There's one later in the book where he says, are we really having this conversation?

[Peter]

No, Greg, no.

[Michael]

No, we're not having this conversation.

[Peter]

You're alone in your room, Greg, and you're writing.

[Michael]

So then we're not gonna read it, but there's a letter from a woman who has a crush on her gardener, and she's like, maybe he just doesn't want to bring sex into, like, a professional relationship. And then Greg is like, regardless of, like, sexual harassment rules, if a guy wants to fuck you, he'll try to fuck you. Which I also don't think is true.

[Peter]

First of all, I don't think that every gardener who, like, sees a woman he wants to fuck is gonna give it a whirl in the professional context. You know what I mean? Second of all, if you try to fuck your gardener and strike out like there's no phase two, you need to calm the fuck down. You need to take a deep breath and reallocate your resources.

[Michael]

So this is. We're three letters in, and this is the first piece of, I think, very bad advice. Okay, Lauren says, I met a really cute guy at a bar this week. He gave me his number and told me to give him a call sometime. I thought that was kind of cool, that he gave me control of the situation like, that I can call him, right? And then Greg says, did he give.

[Peter]

You control or did he just get you to do the heavy lifting? What he just did was a magic trick. It seems like he gave you control, but really he now gets to decide if he wants to go out with you or even return your call. Why don't you take Copperfield's number, roll it in a newspaper, pour milk in it, and make it disappear?

[Michael]

He did a little too much at.

[Peter]

The end there, but I don't understand the milk thing. But also, this is really weird advice. Why? Why does giving your number to someone show disinterest?

[Michael]

We can all be adults here. If you're interested in somebody, call them. If he doesn't call back or he doesn't, you know, flakes on the date or whatever, fine. But, like, why would you not just call? He gave you his number.

[Peter]

This reminds me of modern dating advice. When you watch, like, fucking podcasters on YouTube, talk about dating where, like, nothing is normal. Human dynamics, it's all a psychosexual power game.

[Michael]

A lot of it depends on this thing that, like, if. If a man likes you, he'll sort of pursue you beyond all reason. And I think. I mean, some men will do that, but some men won't. I don't know.

[Peter]

No, this seems like it's something from a Sabrina Carpenter song. I don't understand it.

[Michael]

You know, officially, the book is written by Greg and Liz, but the only contributions by Liz are the section of every chapter where she says, here's why this one is hard.

[Peter]

Oh, so they actually are. They're like very expressly using her to cushion the blow of, like, this is a man giving advice to women.

[Michael]

This is wild. This is in every chapter. And she never. This is the only excerpt from this we're gonna read. Because every single one of them is exactly the same. She's like, it might sound mean, ladies, but you gotta listen to men. Like, Greg's right about this. They're not insightful, they're not interesting. It's just her saying, yeah, Greg's right about this.

[Peter]

It would have been really cool to have another man do this part of the book. A worse man, just an even more disgusting man. Greg's right.

[Michael]

So here is her saying, why this is hard, ladies.

[Peter]

The hardest thing to do for many women, particularly me, Nothing. We like to scheme, make phone calls, have a plan. And I'm talking about more than just making sure our hair doesn't frizz. Most women who date, I would guess, don't have men throwing themselves at them every night of the week. Sometimes there's a long stretch during which nobody's asking us out. So when we see a guy that we feel might be a romantic possibility, it's even harder for us to take a back seat. That opportunity might not come back again for a long time. Women do be scheming, folks.

[Michael]

I know. And also she's kind of acknowledging that a lot of this is born of, like, low self esteem. And again, this is like a message of empowerment, right? It's like, you don't have to do this. It's actually better to be single than dating some fucking loser, right? Which is true.

[Peter]

You have to resist, ladies, your natural inclination to scheme.

[Michael]

So after we get Liz's little response essay, we then get a section called this is what it should Look Like.

[Peter]

Okay.

[Michael]

This is where Greg lays out, like, a better scenario. So his scenario for this is that he's drinking in a bar and he's flirting with the bartender, and he's like, hey, can I have your number? And she says, I don't give out my number to men. If you really want to see me, you'll figure out my number. My name is Lindsay Adams, okay? So he says, do you know how many Lindsay Adamses there are in the phone book of a major city? Let's just say I talked to about eight or nine before I found mine.

[Peter]

Imagine being one of the other Lindsey Adams in the city. And like every other week some random guy calls you, like, hey, is this Lindsay Adams the bartender? And you're like, leave me alone.

[Michael]

You're like, give me your fucking address. Where is this?

[Peter]

For the love of God, stop.

[Michael]

Stop doing this.

[Peter]

When you do find her, call me back. I wanted to talk to her.

[Michael]

I guess this is a cute story. Probably he made it up. This is kind of psychotic behavior. And also, I wouldn't want someone to like me this much after spending 30 minutes with me.

[Peter]

That's the thing, is there's a difference between, hey, take a hint when a guy isn't interested. And make a guy do a bizarre, almost creepy amount of work to talk to you.

[Michael]

Because I think one of the things that he's reproducing here is this idea that what you should be seeking is like, male infatuation, right? That a guy should be, like, obsessed with you. Like this kind of romantic comedy understanding of love, right? Where you're like, standing outside of somebody's house with a fucking boombox. Again and again throughout this book, he sort of seems to imply that, like, the guy should be, like, worryingly into you at an early stage, which I just don't think, like, I don't know, you flirt with the bartender for a couple minutes and then she's like, oh, go to all this trouble to talk to me again. I'd probably just be like, oh, no.

[Peter]

No, that's really weird.

[Michael]

I'm not going to do, like a test of strength and will to, like, go on a fucking first date. Like, just give me your number. Like a normal person fucking trying to.

[Peter]

Go on a second date. The same way that the Terminator tried to kill Sarah o'. Connor.

[Michael]

Going house to house.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Then we get to. This is at the end of every chapter. It's called if you don't believe, Greg. So this is what they say.

[Peter]

We did an incredibly unscientific poll where we polled 20 of our male friends who are in serious long term relationships. Not one of their relationships started with the woman asking them out first. One guy even said that if she had, it would have spoiled all the fun.

[Michael]

So, I don't know.

[Peter]

I like how this book comes out in 2004, and then, like, a decade later, there's an incredibly successful dating app premised entirely around women being able to ask the guy out first. And it's just, like, it blows up. Everyone loves it.

[Michael]

So then the book, then every chapter has what you should have learned in this chapter, where they spend a whole page, like, recapping the lessons. And then they have a workbook where in this one, it's like, it says, grab a pen and list five reasons why you think you should have every right or good reason to call him. Put the book aside and wait an hour. Then ask yourself, do I seem pathetic?

[Peter]

Well, yeah, now you do.

[Michael]

You're filling out a workbook in a terrible dating advice book.

[Peter]

Do something that's pretty pathetic. Wait an hour, and then ask yourself, do I seem pathetic? Yeah. Yeah, dude.

[Michael]

Then don't worry, Peter. We're not gonna get into every chapter that much. But that's the sort of general structure.

[Peter]

I wanna go through. Every fake lady's letter.

[Michael]

We are gonna go through many of them. But chapter two is he's just not that into you if he's not calling you. Okay, we've had he's just not that into you if he's not asking you out. But we then have he's not into you if he's not calling you. So we're already kind of rep to, like, pad out this idea.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Michael]

So this is a dilemma from Annie. She says, I'm dating this guy who ends conversations saying he'll call me at a certain time. Like, I'll call you over the weekend, or, I'll give you a call tomorrow. Or if he has to take a call on the other line, he promises, I'll call you back in a few minutes. And then he doesn't. He always ends up calling, but almost never when he said he would. Should I read something into this, or should I just know to ignore whatever he says when he's getting off the phone with me? Here is Greg's advice. You'll never guess what his advice is, Peter. You'll never guess.

[Peter]

I told a guy my name and to go through the Yellow Pages and he still hasn't called. He says, yes, you should read something into it. In fact, the very something is, he's just not that into you. He keeps dropping the line and it keeps hitting folks. Calling when you say you're going to is the very first brick in the house. You Are building of love and trust. Okay. Jesus.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Peter]

If he can't lay this one stupid brick down, you ain't never gonna have a house, baby. And it's cold. Boom. Oh, Greg's on a fucking roll.

[Michael]

Nailed it. Nailed it.

[Peter]

Some poor 23 year old was reading this in 04 being like, oh, shit.

[Michael]

I don't know if like the. The norms of like, calling people are different than the norms of texting, but like, he is calling you, he's just not calling you when he says he will. I don't know that this is like that big of a deal. Especially in the early stages of a relationship. Again, like, like it's actually good when people have lives. You shouldn't. If you're a random person that you met on a fucking dating app, you shouldn't actually be like the most important relationship in his life.

[Peter]

As a serial procrastinator who's very disorganized in my day to day.

[Michael]

Well, exactly.

[Peter]

I will never stop fighting for this man.

[Michael]

So we're not gonna go over them, but at least like, half of the letters in this book are just like extremely minor issues where he's like, that's a deal breaker, ladies. So. So he has one later where a woman says, the sex is great, the relationship is great, but he's not super into cuddling. And he's like, knock him the fuck out. Get him out of there, ladies.

[Peter]

It's such a simple concept to be like, when you first meet someone, if they're not expressing interest, then probably easier to move on than dwell on it, right? Yeah, but again, not a whole book. So you have to be like, oh, he doesn't get along with your mom quite as much as you thought.

[Michael]

Toast, you have a lab.

[Peter]

And that's not his favorite breed, Honey, kick him out. That's the second brick of love and trust.

[Michael]

And it's also not even just kick him out. It's also like, he's not that into you. Yeah, if he was into you, he would cuddle. It's like, well, there's more issues in a relationship than just whether or not he's into you. Like, these are multifaceted things. And it just seems like the actual advice here would be like, start a conversation about this. Is this something that means something? Or maybe you have some like, I don't know, sensory issues or something. Like some reason you're not cuddling.

[Peter]

Hit him with this. With the 2025 ableism accusations. Michael, get him. Get his ass. I would say that I cuddle like a cat if you just try to engage with me at any moment. I'm like, ugh, I don't know about that, but like, there are times, right?

[Michael]

So, okay, but then the one that really, like, attacks me specifically. This is from a later chapter. She says, dear Greg, I've been dating a guy for a year who can't sleep in the same bed with me. After we have sex, which is always nice and great, he has to go sleep on the couch. He tells me he just can't deal with everything else is fine with our relationship. So then Greg says, dear freak lover, just zero to 60.

[Peter]

By the way, I completely forgot, as you were saying, that that these are all made up. Which makes this so much funny. Creating a weirdo and then getting mad at him is so fucking funny.

[Michael]

It's like, look, your boyfriend is literally Hitler. He wants to sleep in a different place.

[Peter]

Dear freak lover, here's what I'd like to do. Put money down on the fact that everything is, in fact not fine with you and freak boy's relations.

[Michael]

Freak boy?

[Peter]

He hasn't slept in the same bed with you for a year. This is a freak who needs to be kicked off your freak loving couch and shown the bottom of your freak loving boot. The fact that you even care what this freak thinks of you is just proof that the world has indeed gone mad. Call it curtains on the freak show, please.

[Michael]

It's like, jesus, Greg, he says, needs.

[Peter]

To be kicked off your freak loving couch and shown the bottom of your freak loving boot. It's hard to know exactly what's happening in this, but it feels like he's saying kick off the couch and then stomp on him.

[Michael]

Yeah, I would say Manhattan sandwich. He's recommending a Manhattan sandwich.

[Peter]

I don't. What? What's that? A sex thing? No.

[Michael]

Did you ever see American History X?

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Where he makes the guy bite down on the curb and then he stomps on the back of his head. That's a Manhattan sandwich.

[Peter]

Who the fuck calls that a Manhattan sandwich?

[Michael]

That's what it's fucking called. No, it's a. I don't make these terms up.

[Peter]

Yeah, I think you might. I think you might.

[Michael]

That's what it's called.

[Peter]

Dear Greg, my boyfriend calls curb stomping a Manhattan sandwich.

[Michael]

Freak boy. Freak lover.

[Peter]

Tell freak boy over there.

[Michael]

The funny thing is that satire on 30 Rock of like, that's a deal breaker, ladies. Yeah, like, it really feels like that's from somebody who read this book, right? Any excuse to be like, kick him to the curb, ladies and Kind of doing it under, like, empowerment.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I'm not the kind of woman who dates fucking freaks, but it's like, this is not really empowerment to just, like, end a relationship without talking about it.

[Peter]

The man's like, I'm on medication for this.

[Michael]

I know. Also, some people just don't like sleeping in beds with other people.

[Peter]

It's fine if that's a deal breaker.

[Michael]

No, it's not fine.

[Peter]

It's a little weird to be like, he's a freak. You need to stomp him to death. Yeah. And I will say, though, Liz was cooking with some of those deal breakers when she's like, he's got you talking like a crazy person. You've got sexually transmitted crazy mouth. Deal breaker. He's got you talking like a crazy person. It has stuck with me forever. It's so true. You'll see it everywhere now when, like, if you just think about it, when someone's talking about their significant other in, like, the early stages of relationship, sometimes you'll be like, you're talking crazy. End it. You sound crazy. End it.

[Michael]

Okay. Chapter three is called He's Just not that into youo if he's not dating you.

[Peter]

Okay.

[Michael]

This is about situationships before we had that word. One of the letters is Dear Greg, I've been dating a guy for about six months. We see each other every two weeks. We have a great time, we have sex. It's all really nice. I thought if I just let things develop, we would start to see each other more often, but instead it's staying in this every two weeks situation. I really like him, so I still feel like it's better than nothing. And you never know, things can change at any time. I know he's really busy, and maybe this is the most time he can dedicate to a relationship right now. So maybe I should actually feel honored that he's able to give me as much time as he does and he might actually really like me.

[Peter]

Deal breaker girl.

[Michael]

And here's Greg's response.

[Peter]

Why should you feel honored for getting scraps of his time? Just because he's busy doesn't make him more valuable. Busy does not mean better in my book. Any guy who can wait two weeks to see you is just not that into you, which is fair.

[Michael]

And then later in the chapter, he.

[Peter]

From this moment on, right now, as you read this, make this solemn vow about your future romantic relationships. No more murky, no more gray, no more unidentified, and no more undeclared. And if at all possible, try to know someone as best you can, before you get naked with them. Whatever, loser. Yeah, I hate that shit. A lot of guys, when giving dating advice, they're doing this thing where they're like, guys are predatory, they wanna fuck you. And like, yeah, there's this like implication. You see it in Steve Harvey very expressly that like, if you give in to that, you have, you have fallen into their trap or whatever. And it's just like, it makes me feel like what they're really trying to say is like, don't fuck those guys. Fuck me. That's the sense I get.

[Michael]

There's this thread throughout this book, kind of this whole movement of self help books at the time where it's trying to package this as feminism, right? It's like, move on, bestie, you can do better. It's all about this kind of rah, rah, be proud of who you are, self esteem thing. But on the other hand, it's like, but don't fuck anybody.

[Peter]

Similar to the Lindsay Adams thing he's veering into, make him work for it or something like that. And that's different. That's different advice.

[Michael]

Well, just traditional advice. I mean, this is the thing, repackaging, just like 1950s dating advice. I also, I think if people want to wait to have sex, that's perfectly legitimate. But also like, there's nothing in here about sort of like how to navigate a sexual relationship or also like, I don't, I personally think like a relationship where you're just kind of having sex with somebody, like a sort of situationship thing is also totally fine if you both have the same expectations of it. But if you want a relationship and he doesn't, yeah, you probably shouldn't keep sleeping with that person. Mostly because it's like, I would say for self preservation of your own emotions because it's going to, it's going to.

[Peter]

Make you miserable, it's going to stress you out.

[Michael]

Yeah, I think, think like have sex with people you don't like. Then there's no confusion.

[Peter]

Is this why once a week I hear about a guy you were on a date with who said the most insane thing that I've ever heard in my life. You're like, hey, met a guy off Grindr who says that he has a full size cutout of Tucker Carlson in his apartment.

[Michael]

So far these have been the chapters where this advice kind of makes sense. It's mostly like people in the early stages of dating or they've met somebody that they're interested in. The rest of the book is just like more and more Outlandish situations where he just needs to pad out the rest of the book. So chapter five is, he's just not that into you if he's having sex with someone else.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And this is basically like, yeah, if he cheats on you, he's just not.

[Peter]

That into you if he family annihilates, he's just not that into you. Lady.

[Michael]

Chapter six is, he's just not that into you if he only wants to see you when he's drunk. I actually think this is good advice. I think in your 20s, you have those friendships with people. You're like, we only really like each other, or, like, have fun when we're drinking. I think that's like, I don't know, kind of worth questioning. And also, Greg is in recovery, so it makes sense that he would sort of include this. I think he had a lot of relationships with women that were based around alcohol. I don't know if he's just not that into you is the right framework for that. But also, this is, like, fundamentally good advice.

[Peter]

Sure.

[Michael]

And then chapter seven is, he's just not that into you if he doesn't want to marry you.

[Peter]

This is like a whole different phase of relationship. Initially it was like, he won't go on a second date with me. And now it's like we've been dating for eight years and he hasn't married me.

[Michael]

We then get to chapter eight, which is, he's just not that into it to you if he's breaking up with you.

[Peter]

Oh, you know what? I've always thought that if he's literally.

[Michael]

Told you to your face, he doesn't want to be with you ladies if he's dumping you.

[Peter]

I actually know where this is going, by the way, and it is sort of good advice. It's like, but, yeah, if you got dumped, please, please, yeah.

[Michael]

Don't get back together with somebody who sucks.

[Peter]

Yeah, Right, Right.

[Michael]

So this is a. This is a dilemma from Eileen. She says, dear Greg, yes, Breakup sex. It's been hot, emotional, amazing. I'm tortured, and I love him, and I can't stop myself. I thought you were allowed breakup sex, but now I'm in over my head. Help. And then he says this.

[Peter]

Hey, girl. Come on, man. There are several times when it just feels like Greg's spending a little too much time in the all female writers room in Sex in the City. Girl, Greg, you gotta hang out with some boys. He says, hey, girl, put down the penis, put your clothes back on, and go directly to your best friend's house. Do not find an excuse to stay. Yes, breakup sex does seem like a good idea because, hey, it's nice to have sex with someone you know. But now you know, it confuses everything and makes you feel like crap because, face it, you're a woman. And women can't separate sex and emotions.

[Michael]

Unfortunately, that's just something we know about women.

[Peter]

How many times will you make me have to say that? I sound like such a jerk. Yeah. So now you don't ever have to make that mistake again. Got it. He's not into you. He's into the very bad idea that masquerades as a good idea. Over and out, ladies. You're ruled by your vagina emotions. Don't make me say it. It makes me seem rude. But I'm just describing the science to you.

[Michael]

One thing that's weird, though, is I did do a little bit of research for this about.

[Peter]

You had sex with a woman.

[Michael]

I had breakup sex with a woman. I dated him for seven years and then we broke up and then we had sex. Just to solve Eileen's dilemma. No, I read a little bit about, like, this wave of self help books because there's something weird about. This book is basically the same as, like, think like a man.

[Peter]

It is. Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael]

Oh, we need to turn to a man to get, like, real advice. Like, women can't really be trusted on this stuff.

[Peter]

You're giving men too much credit. Right, Right. Like, that's sort of the premise of both of these books.

[Michael]

Have you heard of this, Peter? There's. There's a kind of movement called post feminism that is happening around this time.

[Peter]

I've heard the term post feminism, but I don't remember what it is.

[Michael]

You know, there's the feminist movement starting in the 1960s. There then was this narrative, like, immediately after the feminist movement starts making gains that, like, feminists have gone too far. Like, feminists were too shrill. They sort of overdid it and that, you know, isn't it important to ask whether all this feminism has made women worse off?

[Peter]

This is like Christina Hoff Summers sort of shit, right?

[Michael]

Exactly. And so Susan Fluti's entire book, Backlash, she's just pointing out, like, statistics. She's like, women still make way less than men. They're still way underrepresented. Women are still subject to sexual harassment in the workplace. Like, we didn't win everything and go too far. We are still working on this. So in the 80s and 90s, you get this massive, like, backlash to feminism. And then what? You then start getting in the early 2000s is especially in romantic comedies but also in self help books. You get like these. These stories of this narrative about women that just assumes that feminism has happened. That like, oh, everything's equal in the workplace. And so what you then have is you have extremely traditional kind of backlashy advice to women being packaged as, like, harsh truths. There's numerous, like, Katherine Heigl movies that have this as like a plot point where it's like, she's a woman in the workforce, but, like, she's too intimidating cause she's been acting like a man. And like, men find it disgusting. And then like, she needs a man to teach her to be feminine.

[Peter]

This is a big theme of the rom com for many years and to some degree still is. Like, this lady has had a job for 10 years and now she's gonna be alone forever.

[Michael]

Right. And it allows this wave of pop culture to cast feminism rather than sexism as the status quo. Right. So you have things like he says, well, you're not supposed to say it anymore, but women connect sex and emotions.

[Peter]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael]

And like, you very much can say it like it's on the COVID of Time in Newsweek. This is still the dominant cultural narrative.

[Peter]

This is something that happens with conservatism in waves where there are sort of moments of liberal progress. And then these really antiquated conservative political and cultural notions get to position themselves as transgressive and interesting.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Peter]

And so they can sort of present themselves to women as like the truths that the powers that be have been hiding from you.

[Michael]

Right. And the powers that be are like radical feminists who were never meaningfully in power.

[Peter]

Well, it's like feminism's failures have revealed these overarching truths, Right? These truths that shoot through our cultural politics. And one of them is that girls are emotional.

[Michael]

Girls can't have sex without getting all crazy about it.

[Peter]

If Greg had just met one girl who is a big hoe and just loves it, I feel like it would have really changed his life.

[Michael]

All of this brings us to chapter nine. He's just not that into you if he's disappeared on you. Some of these are literally men disappearing on women. Which, like, it's not really, like, a dilemma.

[Peter]

I have not seen this man in 10 years. Please grab.

[Michael]

So Liza says, Dear Greg, I went on a trip with my boyfriend of six months to California. We had a great time. When I got home, he went to visit his family in Boston. When I called him to check in, his mother told me that he had gone to visit his friend. In Florida. I never heard from him again. It's devastating. I believe the only way I can honor my feelings and their relationship is to talk to him and find out what happened.

[Peter]

Girl, deal breaker.

[Michael]

So here's Greg.

[Peter]

Sometimes a person's behavior is so abhorrent that it leaves little doubt as to what to do. The big mistake you made was choosing that person to begin with. The quickest way to rectify that mistake is by learning from that, moving on, and choosing much more wisely in the future.

[Michael]

So you see how this kind of post feminist thing can just kind of COVID up the terrible behavior of men, right? Ghosting essentially on someone you've dated for six months is like, sociopathic. I wouldn't say to someone like, well, it's your fault for choosing him in the first place. Why didn't you see this coming?

[Peter]

You can give someone like this advice about moving forward, right? You have to try your best to move on and accept that this person is wildly shitty, whatever you thought of him before, right? But to be like, here's what you could have done differently, it's like, well, hold on, hold on. You're dealing with a straight up psychopath.

[Michael]

That's nuts.

[Peter]

This is not something that you're likely to be able to prevent in the future because you're probably not going to encounter a human being that's depraved in this precise way.

[Michael]

And then we get to the if you don't believe Greg segment where it's like, statistics.

[Peter]

So he says this 100% of men polled who had disappeared on a woman said that at the time, they were completely aware of what a horrible thing they were doing. And no woman calling them up and talking to them would have changed that. I like how we're not. We're not polling the guys who haven't done this.

[Michael]

There's one of the questions in this section is a woman saying, like, some man ghosted on her after many months and is like, can I email him and tell him he's like, a piece of shit?

[Peter]

Hell yeah, dude.

[Michael]

And like, maybe you want to do that, maybe you don't. But like to say, like, well, men already know they're a piece of shit. You shouldn't tell him that.

[Peter]

Right?

[Michael]

I don't know. I think if you want to do that, go for it.

[Peter]

Here's my advice to anyone who's contemplating sending that text or email. Be mean to him, but try not to sound like you're super sad or emotionally affected. Keep it short. Maybe say something about his relationship with his mother. And then just leave it. Block him.

[Michael]

The book gets increasingly desperate from there. Chapter 11 is, he's just not that into you if he's married.

[Peter]

Getting real thin towards the end of.

[Michael]

This book, one of the questions like, a woman who's, like, dating her married boss.

[Peter]

I have to constantly remind myself that Greg is writing these. And it's like, some of these more ridiculous scenarios. Just like, come on.

[Michael]

It's not just like, I'm doing this thing and it's probably a mistake. It's like, but I think he might be secretly into me because his wife sucks.

[Peter]

Yes.

[Michael]

And then.

[Peter]

Greg says, ladies, I mean it. I'm very sorry that it's so hard to find the decent guy these days that you'll love. Let any punctual male with the ability to dial the phone and drive a car get away with anything.

[Michael]

You've made up a desperate woman. You're like, I'm sorry you're so desperate.

[Peter]

It's so funny to make up a woman who asks you for advice and then insult her. That is. You have to appreciate that bit.

[Michael]

So the last kind of substantive chapter is he's just not that into you. If he's a selfish jerk, a bully, or a really big freak, which is actually good. This is women walking through scenarios where their boyfriends are abusive, but not in a, like, violent way, but just in a. Like, he belittles me in front of my friends or in these kind of subtle ways. And Greg's advice is like, yeah, look, there's lots of ways of being abusive that don't require physical violence. And, like, if a guy makes you feel bad, you should find somebody else to be with.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Again, I don't know. That he's just not that into you is, like, sort of the framework for that. But I don't really care.

[Peter]

Right.

[Michael]

Making people more open to, like, hey, this is a thing that makes me feel bad, and that might actually be abusive, even if it doesn't necessarily register to me as abuse. Or, like, the sort of traditional forms of abuse I'm used to seeing is like, yeah, it's okay to see that as abusive. And, like, get the fuck out of there.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Michael]

So, like, this is actually a pretty good chapter. Like, well done.

[Peter]

Cool. It's pronounced substantive, by the way.

[Michael]

What?

[Peter]

Got him, folks.

[Michael]

Oh, Mr. Nefarious over here.

[Peter]

Yeah, that's an accepted pronunciation.

[Michael]

I deliberately left that in because I wanted to get emails from listeners. I was like, we didn't actually need this, but I'm keeping it.

[Peter]

Well, I don't think That's a substantive pronunciation. Objection.

[Michael]

Wait, what did I say?

[Peter]

You said like substantive or something. That's fucking normal.

[Michael]

We can't do emphasis. I have a dialect.

[Peter]

That's.

[Michael]

No, that's it. I have a dialect. It's like Madonna in the 90s. I have a subtle British accent.

[Peter]

No, nefarious is how people from the Middle east say it.

[Michael]

Yo, you're gonna lean on this at a time.

[Peter]

At a time like this, you're gonna call me out as bombs drop on Tehran. We're going to call Peter out for his pronunciation.

[Michael]

I knew you'd get here, Peter. I knew one day you'd pull this card on the show.

[Peter]

I like how you act like I've finally crossed this line as I call you racist for no reason at all in every episode.

[Michael]

So we're gonna talk a little bit about the reception to this book. There were very few reviews. As with most of these dating book blockbuster bestsellers, they get no actual critical exam in the mainstream media. So I didn't find that many reviews. Although there was an extremely funny New York Times review of this book called Beta Male for women who count on men to be jerks. Okay, remember in Blink how you said, like, the book is not that great, but also the reviews of the book were also not that great?

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Michael]

This is what we're talking about here. So first it's a male reviewer. So first he says this.

[Peter]

There's something wildly condescending about the image of women as helpless creatures standing around minding their own business until men come into their lives and break their hearts. This after how many waves of feminism?

[Michael]

Wow. You've had this many waves and you're still this bad? Women. And then he says this.

[Peter]

The book catalogs the male's so called bad behavior, but doesn't explain why he's not that into you. Maybe it's because you talked about yourself for five hours at dinner or mentioned that your last boyfriend was a warlock or simply aren't the right gal for him. But it's never you. It's always him. As one chapter heading advises, he's just not that into you. If he's a selfish jerk, a bully, or a really big freak, when there's no culpability on the woman's part, there's no need for accountability.

[Michael]

This is also very post feminist that it's casting as some sort of bold truth telling to be like, when will women try to work on themselves to find a man? When will we finally start saying it? It's like, that's been like 200 years of self help advice for women.

[Peter]

And in fact, the entire point of the advice is like. Like, maybe for a little bit, stop thinking about what you can change to get this guy interested and just move on. This guy might not be that interested. If you're a decent person, then maybe you can just respect that someone will like you and move on. Right? It's like this guy's like, yeah, well, maybe you're a fucking yapper. It's like, again, these women don't exist. The letters are fake. You just call. Like, everybody needs to take a deep breath sometimes.

[Michael]

It's also in the updated version of the book because it was reissued with the release of the movie Greg. There's like a Frequently asked questions. And Greg actually responds to this. He says, if we wrote a book called She's Just not that into youo, it would sell eight copies.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Michael]

It's like, yeah. The book is pitched at women because, like, women buy most books, and especially self help books, and especially dating self help books. Like, the market is women. So we're gonna write it for women.

[Peter]

I hate when these reviews just, like, piss me off so much that I'm like, don't be mean to Greg and his cool book with good advice.

[Michael]

It's also so funny to me that they assigned like a dud that route to review this. Like, you're not the target audience of the book at all.

[Peter]

Stop talking shit. Stop talking shit about boys.

[Michael]

All right, so 2009, we get the movie He's Just not that into youo, which takes all of the ideas, the same ideas of the book and makes them so much dumber like this. I know I'm going like too easy on this book, but I think the movie made me appreciate the book. So I'm going to send you a clip from this movie that I took on my phone.

[Peter]

Let's just watch the whole thing.

[Michael]

So are you familiar with the premise of this movie?

[Peter]

I remember when it came out, but I don't remember any details at all. I don't remember who was in it. Nothing.

[Michael]

It's a anthology movie. Kind of like love.

[Peter]

Actually, I like how you say kind of as if they weren't trying to recreate love.

[Michael]

Actually, I was gonna say it's just like traffic, except instead of drugs, it's a man not being into you. It's all kind of around the same theme. They're interlocking stories, right? It's like one person's a sister of the other person. Whatever, traffic. It's a bunch of different plot Lines. But what that results in is every single character is just wildly underdeveloped.

[Peter]

Yeah, so it's a lot like love, actually.

[Michael]

All right, so these are the quote, unquot quote, two main characters of the movie. And this is a girl who is kind of into a guy, but he's just sort of treating her like shit. She goes to a party of his and he's like, hey, can you help me clean up and, like, do the dishes and stuff. Like, it's just manifestly obvious that he's not into her. And she comes over to his house and that's where the scene starts. Thanks for staying and helping clean up. They gotta go to bed, though. Is that an invitation? What?

[Peter]

Oh, go.

[Michael]

That was cheesy. Oh, I'm not good at this.

[Peter]

Well, she really went for it there.

[Michael]

Yeah. Oh, yes. I knew it. The best relationships could have friendships. Wait, wait, wait, Gigi, wait, wait. What? Now you and I are in a relationship? Well, I'd say if we're not at Relationship Station Ship, we're at least on the track. And why exactly would you think that? Because of the signs. Really? Like what? Like, it was good to hear from me and you talked to me even when you were with a girl and I felt something. Oh, man. What are you talking about? Gigi, what have I been saying since I met you? If a guy wants to date you, he will make it happen, okay? He will ask you out. Did I ask you out? No. Why would you do that? Oh, shit. Why do they do this? Why do they build up this stuff in their minds, take each little thing a guy does and twist it into something else? It's insane. Tell him this thing that only women do where they think that something is romantic when it's not.

[Peter]

By the way, it took her a really long time in that scene to catch on to his vibe.

[Michael]

Peter, this is like a 2 hour and 15 minute long movie. And all of the humor in the movie is all of the female characters being dumb as fucking rocks and not taking a hint when the men are just openly mean to them.

[Peter]

Well, look, comedy is comedy. You know what I mean?

[Michael]

In every scene, I'm like, is this funny? Is it funny that she's like, is that an invitation?

[Peter]

Right? Then she chucked herself at his face and then said, I knew that the best relationships grew out of friendships. Which is one of the most. To say that in that setting is wildly unhinged.

[Michael]

Something that Greg did well in the book is that the book never actually implies that women are the only ones who kind of go nuts interpreting these mixed signals, right? Whereas the movie over and over again is like, why are you women reading into everything? But, like, guys also do this. Like when guys kind of quote, unquote, go crazy over thinking that somebody is interested in them romantically. It often manifests as, like, abuse or like, stalking or like, violence. But it's sort of like. It's very weird for the movie to imply that sexually transmitted crazy mouth is like a female phenomenon.

[Peter]

If he's not blasting you with a black light, lady, he's not. Have you even seen his runes?

[Michael]

My least favorite thing about misogynistic movies is that they make me misogynistic. Because all of the female characters in this movie, I'm just like, oh, God. Because they're all so one dimensional.

[Peter]

That's interesting because when I watch them, I understand that it's fiction and that real women are much more complex and dynamic.

[Michael]

So we're gonna watch another clip. This is the rest of the scene. This is the end of the scene. I'd rather be like that than be like you. You. Excuse me. Got him. What is that supposed to mean? I may dissect each little thing and put myself out there too much, but at least, I mean, they still care. Oh, you think you've won because women are. Are expendable to you. You may not get. Get hurt or make an ass of yourself that way, but you don't fall in love that way either. You have not won. You're alone. I may do a lot of stupid shit, but I know I'm a lot closer to finding someone than you are. Boom.

[Peter]

It's not an appropriate reaction.

[Michael]

And then, so then after the scene, this is toward the end of the movie, he then loves her. Oh, and he shows up at her house and is like, I do love you.

[Peter]

That's what works on men, is to throw yourself at them, humiliate yourself. But when he rejects you, give a really dramatic speech. It should be humiliating for you, but also make him realize that you're correct. Which, by the way, is what will happen when you articulate the truth to a man.

[Michael]

This is how romantic love works. It's. You give a pitch to them like you have a pitch deck ready.

[Peter]

This feels like the opposite of he's just not that into you.

[Michael]

This is what, this is. Why I'm choosing this to show you is because. Because the movie doesn't even believe in its own premise enough. He's just not that into you. And then you give him a two second speech. And then all of a Sudden, he's desperately in love. It's like, that's exactly the thing the book is saying does not happen. You can't give somebody a new piece of information and they suddenly like you. It's like the whole point is to free yourself from that and be like, eh, he's just not that into me.

[Peter]

I'll move on.

[Michael]

But this movie is now saying, oh, if you say the magic words, he will be into you.

[Peter]

That's what relationships are all about, is just crafting the best speech for when you get rejected.

[Michael]

There's also a whole weird plotline where Bradley Cooper is married to Jennifer Connelly.

[Peter]

Jennifer Connelly's in this.

[Michael]

Dude. This movie has, like, the most stacked fucking cast. Kris Kristofferson, Ben Affleck, Scarlett Johansson, Drew Barrymore. The cast is like, this is the most wasted cast movie I've ever seen in my life.

[Peter]

Damn, this is wild.

[Michael]

So they're married, and then she finds a cigarette in the backyard because he has been back there smoking with Scarlett Johansson, who he picked up at the grocery store. She's like, I found a cigarette in the backyard. Does this mean anything? Anything? And he goes, oh, well, there's illegal immigrants here all the time.

[Peter]

What the fuck?

[Michael]

Because they're remodeling their kitchen. So he's like, there's illegal immigrants here all the time. So that's why. But the audience knows he's lying. The audience knows he was back there.

[Peter]

With ScarJo, but that's a pretty good excuse.

[Michael]

Also, even if you're not remodeling your kitchen, just be like, there's illegal immigrants back there. But then there's a scene where then Jennifer Connelly confronts sort of like the foreman of the crew, it's Luis Guzman. And she's like, are you guys smoking out there? And he's like, no, it's like a utopian told us not to smoke. We're not smoking out there. And she, like, immediately starts crying, and she's like, are we friends? Friends have to trust each other. And she misses this, like, huge meltdown. I guess it's supposed to be funny. Like, every scene in this movie, you're like, I guess this is funny. I think I'm supposed to be laughing at her for correctly surmising that her husband is lying to her. Like, she is correct. But all of the humor is sort of at her extent.

[Peter]

That's. I think, an important part of comedy is something horrible happens to a woman.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Peter]

And then she cries.

[Michael]

That's literally the comedy.

[Peter]

I don't like the thing about the he's just not that into you premise is. I'm not sure you can make a movie about it because the whole, like, the whole rom com dynamic is like, yeah, maybe like there's a source of friction between the two people, but they end up together. But the whole premise of he's just not that into you is to, like, understand implicit rejection and move on.

[Michael]

It's this very weird, almost like time travel paradox where we have decades of romantic comedies being based around this premise that, like, somebody who seems like they're not into you is like actually secretly into you or can be convinced to be into you. Right. Which isn't really something that ever happens in real life. It only happens under the scriptures of a, like three act screenplay. Like something where you need like a little twist at the end. That's why every fucking romantic comedy, like, ends at the airport.

[Peter]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael]

This trope shows up in a million in romantic comedies. It eventually sort of trickles into actual culture where people start interpreting human behavior under this completely false rubric. Right. After decades of this, we then have this TV show and this phrase that just kind of cuts through that. It's like, yeah, we were all raised on romantic comedies. But 99 times out of 100, if somebody seems like they're not into you, they're just not into you and you need to move on. Like, that was why the phrase really resonated. But then the movie based on this premise comes out and repeats the trope that the phrase was pushing back against.

[Peter]

Right.

[Michael]

And the people who wrote the movie, who are not the authors of the book, don't seem to like, get that.

[Peter]

Well, what they could have done is the classic, there's a really hot guy and she is trying to date him. He's not that interested. But there's an incredibly disgusting guy who she thinks is a total fucking loser played by a man who's actually an 8.5 out of 10.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah.

[Peter]

She learns over time that the hot guy is not that into her, but the dorky loser is. Right. I don't know that you get the love actually array of storylines that way, but that's a classic rom com setup.

[Michael]

So we should also talk a little bit about Greg Barent and what happened after this book. He recently wrote a memoir and he's given a bunch of podcast interviews. And one thing that's kind of weird about him or interesting is that he came up in the kind of alt comedy scene. So he was like roommates with David Cross. He was friends with Patton Oswalt. He was part of this like kind of progressive, edgy indie comedy scene in LA in the 1990s. And I even saw his stand up a couple times in the, in the 90s when I was a high schooler. And then he gets on this TV show, he issues this kind of pithy phrase at a meeting. He then writes this massively best selling book and all of a sudden becomes like a dating guru, right? And then he writes a couple follow up books, none of which are anywhere near as successful as the first book. He talks about how once this happened, sort of once he. They tried to give him a talk show and the talk show was canceled after like a year because it wasn't very good. And immediately after Words, he couldn't really go back to doing stand up comedy because all of his previous fans like thought he was a huge sellout. They're like, you're on Oprah giving fucking dating advice. I don't want to like, I don't want to like watch your like edgy quasi political comedy, right? And then whenever he would do stand up shows, it would all just be like middle aged women with like dating dilemmas. And they were like, why are you doing stand up comedy? To me, he's like in between these two audiences, right? He ended up doing like getting addicted to painkiller. This then was like a 10 year period where he was addicted to opioids. He talks about how it threatened his family. Him and his wife had to break up for a period of time. They ended up getting back together. It seems like this made him absolutely fucking miserable that he ended up with this public Persona that just wasn't really him.

[Peter]

His mistake obviously is that he didn't keep going.

[Michael]

Yeah, lean in.

[Peter]

You have to keep churning out this fucking garbage.

[Michael]

It's also kind of funny because it's almost like the fact that Greg seems like a sort of a decent guy is kind of what tripped him up in the end because he easily could have extended this to like, yeah, he's just not that into you at work. But the fact that he never really believed in it anyway and he sort of knows how dumb of an idea it is. Like that's what kept him from cashing in ultimately.

[Peter]

Yeah.

[Michael]

So the real problem with airport bestsellers is that they ruin the life of any good faith person who does them.

[Peter]

Yeah, there's a, there's sort of a Rubicon you cross when you hit a certain level of airport support. Bestseller success. We call it the tipping point. And once you get past that.