Podcast Summary: "If Books Could Kill"
Episode: "In Covid's Wake" Part 2: Wrong About The Right
Release Date: June 19, 2025

Introduction

In the second part of their deep dive into the book "How Our Politics Failed Us" by Steven Macedo and Francis Lee, hosts Michael Hobbes and Peter Shamshiri engage in a passionate discussion dissecting the authors' analysis of political and public health responses during the COVID-19 pandemic from June 2020 to January 2024.

Recap of Part One

Francis Lee initiates the conversation by summarizing the first episode, where the hosts critiqued Macedo and Lee's initial evaluation of early pandemic mitigation efforts. They argued that the authors mistakenly believed that measures such as masks and social distancing lacked scientific backing, a stance the hosts firmly reject.

Shift from Epidemiology to Political Science

Peter Shamshiri explains that while the first part focused on the epidemiological missteps, the second part shifts to political science failures. He emphasizes that state and local governments gained more autonomy post-lockdowns, allowing for varied approaches to managing the pandemic.

Notable Quote:
"Last episode was how they're bad at epidemiology, but this episode is how they're also bad at political science." [02:55]

Analysis of Reopening Policies

The hosts critique Macedo and Lee's assertion that diverse reopening strategies across states did not significantly impact COVID-19 mortality rates before vaccines became widely available. They argue that such comparisons are flawed due to differing initial outbreak severities.

Notable Quote:
"The reason why deaths were so high in the northeastern corridor in the first two months of the pandemic was because they waited too long to lock down. That's not the failure of lockdowns, that's the fact that they didn't do lockdowns until the virus was already everywhere." [17:32]

Political Polarization and Its Impact

A significant portion of the discussion centers on how political polarization exacerbated the pandemic response. The hosts highlight how Republican leaders, influenced by political motives, undermined public health measures, leading to increased mortality rates in red states compared to blue states.

Notable Quote:
"They have been a blow off major. You can't fuck around with me and act like this is a real science." [03:09]

Effectiveness of Non-Pharmaceutical Interventions

Francis challenges the book's claim of scientific uncertainty regarding the effectiveness of measures like lockdowns and masks. The hosts present evidence from various meta-analyses indicating that early interventions significantly reduced COVID-19 cases and deaths.

Notable Quote:
"The academic consensus is that lockdown orders were like one of the most effective interventions." [34:21]

School Closures Debate

The hosts delve into the contentious issue of school closures, arguing that the book inaccurately portrays the impact of such measures. They provide data showing that school closures were among the most effective interventions in reducing virus transmission, contrary to the book's suggestions.

Notable Quote:
"There's one in the US that says each additional day from a county's first case until the state ordered school closure is related to a 1.5 to 2.4% higher cumulative death per capita." [35:12]

Vaccination and Partisan Divide

Peter and Francis critique the authors' handling of vaccination rates and mortality disparities between red and blue states. They argue that the book downplays the role of policy and instead attributes differences primarily to personal beliefs, ignoring the significant impact of political leadership and misinformation.

Notable Quote:
"The preferences and voluntary actions of state residents, which themselves strongly correlate with partisanship, largely explain the differences in vaccination rates across red and blue states." [59:50]

Misinformation and Policy Failures

The discussion highlights how misinformation, particularly from political leaders like former President Trump, fueled vaccine hesitancy and undermined public health efforts. The hosts emphasize that this was a deliberate strategy rather than a mere reflection of personal beliefs.

Notable Quote:
"Trump was spreading these conspiracy theories." [62:16]

Concluding Critique of the Book

Michael Hobbes and Peter Shamshiri conclude by asserting that Macedo and Lee's analysis is fundamentally flawed. They argue that the book misrepresents scientific consensus, overlooks critical data, and fails to account for the profound political factors that influenced pandemic outcomes. The hosts stress the importance of relying on credible scientific evidence over politicized narratives.

Notable Quote:
"The entire premise of this book is wrong. None of the producers of the Daily Nobody, like, thought to check, hey, can we maybe talk to an epidemiologist." [68:11]

Final Thoughts

The hosts reiterate their stance that political interference, misinformation, and ineffective leadership significantly contributed to the mishandling of the COVID-19 pandemic in the United States. They advocate for a more evidence-based approach to public health policy and caution against the dangers of politicizing scientific crises.

This summary encapsulates the heated and thorough discussion between Michael Hobbes and Peter Shamshiri as they critically evaluate the arguments presented in "How Our Politics Failed Us", offering their perspective on the interplay between politics and public health during one of the most challenging periods in recent history.