Podcast Summary: If Books Could Kill
Episode: "What's The Matter With Kansas?"
Hosts: Michael Hobbes & Peter Shamshiri
Release Date: December 6, 2024

Introduction

In this episode of If Books Could Kill, hosts Michael Hobbes and Peter Shamshiri delve into Thomas Frank's influential 2004 book, "What's The Matter With Kansas?" The discussion explores the shifting political landscape of Kansas, particularly focusing on the migration of the white working class from the Democratic to the Republican Party. The hosts examine Frank's thesis, integrating insights from political science research and their personal perspectives to unpack the complex interplay of cultural and economic factors influencing voter behavior.

Contextualizing the Political Environment (00:00 – 02:03)

Peter opens the conversation by setting the stage in the early 2000s, highlighting the dominance of the GOP:

“In 2002, the GOP sweeps the midterms. They control the presidency, the House and the Senate, and Democrats are in a state of what is basically complete despair.” [01:46]

Michael adds a humorous touch, depicting his skepticism about understanding the political despair:

“Let me just hold my breath, pause for a moment, and try to picture what that's like.” [01:52]

They reference John Judas and Roy Teixeira's "Emerging Democratic Majority", which argues that changing demographics—such as increases in women, people of color, and the educated electorate—would benefit the Democrats. This perspective initially seemed counterintuitive amidst Republican dominance and post-9/11 political climate.

Thomas Frank's Thesis and Initial Reactions (02:03 – 04:32)

Peter expresses a positive surprise towards Frank's work:

“I actually kind of liked this book, I'm gonna be honest... I was expecting to go into it being like, he's dumb and doesn't get it. And by the end of it, I was like, actually, he cut through a whole lot of bullshit.” [03:10, 55:40]

They discuss how Frank's book challenges the prevailing notion that Republican policies benefit the working class, proposing instead that cultural issues are leveraged to distract from economic disadvantages.

Core Arguments of the Book (04:32 – 18:22)

Peter outlines Frank's primary arguments, segmented into three main points:

1. Shift of White Working Class to Republicans:

   “Frank is correct in the sense that he has identified a real population that is shifting away from the Democratic Party.” [09:27]

2. Cultural Issues as a Distraction:

   “Frank talks a lot about Kansas... modern conservatism as basically a bait and switch.” [14:34]

   Michael concurs, emphasizing genuine animus towards marginalized groups:

   “I think a lot of these people genuinely hate what they consider to be their social lessers.” [17:59]

3. Democrats' Embrace of Neoliberal Policies:

   “Frank says Democrats have embraced neoliberal policies that have hurt working class people.” [04:51]

They reference various studies, including those by Larry Bartels and Christopher Achin, which suggest that voter behavior often hinges more on partisan loyalty and social identity than on rational economic considerations.

Notable Quote:

“If you ask individual voters, it seems like they have no idea what's going on, but there's something that Looks a little bit like rationality here.” – Peter [28:15]

Voter Rationality and Political Elites (18:22 – 33:21)

The discussion transitions to voter rationality, critiquing the notion that voters make decisions based solely on economic self-interest. Peter and Michael argue that voters are influenced by cultural cues and identities shaped by political elites rather than purely economic factors.

Michael mocks the retrospective rationality theory:

“Maybe people are dumb. I retract my previous statement. People are so fucking dumb.” [31:37]

They reference the book "Democracy for Realists" by Larry Bartels and Christopher Achin, which posits that voters often lack coherent policy beliefs and instead vote based on party loyalty and social identities.

Notable Quote:

“Voters aren't really rational in any sense. Instead, they vote based on a combination of partisan loyalty and social identity.” – Peter [28:48]

Race, Prejudice, and the Republican Base (33:21 – 48:15)

Peter and Michael explore the role of race and prejudice in the political shift, challenging Frank's assertion that Kansas is not significantly influenced by racism. They cite studies by David Norman Smith and Eric Hanley, which demonstrate that prejudice, particularly racial resentment, is a significant predictor of Republican support among white voters without college degrees.

Peter highlights regional variations:

“White voters without college degrees were much more likely to support him [Trump] in the south and Midwest than in the Northeast.” [44:06]

Michael emphasizes the complexity of racism in voter behavior:

“Racism is a phenomenon and bias is just really complex.” [48:09]

They discuss how racial resentment intertwines with economic distress, making it difficult to disentangle economic and cultural motivations in voting patterns.

Notable Quote:

“Racial resentment increases as economic distress increases.” – Peter [48:02]

Frank's Critique of Liberalism and Democratic Strategy (48:15 – 61:50)

The conversation turns to Frank's critique of the Democratic Party's shift away from working-class concerns towards a more elitist and professional approach. Frank argues that Democrats have moved towards neoliberal policies and a classless liberalism, alienating their traditional base.

Peter critiques Frank's perspective on Democratic elites:

“They're casting social identities aside and not addressing the actual economic concerns of working-class voters.” [63:08]

Michael agrees, noting the Democratic Party's difficulty in maintaining a cohesive and inclusive platform:

“The Democratic coalition is so much bigger and more diverse... it’s just really hard to find somebody that appeals to everybody.” [55:02]

They discuss the challenges in reversing the political shift, emphasizing that simple solutions are ineffective due to the deep-rooted changes in voter identities and party strategies.

Notable Quote:

“Politics is both more complex and also simpler than Democrats are making it.” – Peter [64:37]

Concluding Insights and Reflections (61:50 – End)

In wrapping up, Peter acknowledges the enduring relevance of Frank's work, despite some disagreements:

“I think that he is sort of onto something in the sense that what he's sort of prescribing is a new aesthetic for the Democratic Party...” [64:37]

Michael and Peter reflect on the broader implications of the political shifts discussed, contemplating the future strategies needed for the Democratic Party to reconnect with the white working class and address both cultural and economic concerns effectively.

Final Notable Quote:

“The white working class pulling away from the Dems, it's not just civil rights reaction per se, it's the development of a post civil rights white social identity.” – Peter [55:10]

Key Takeaways

1. Thomas Frank's Analysis: "What's The Matter With Kansas?" provides a compelling examination of the political realignment of the white working class, emphasizing the role of cultural issues over economic self-interest.

2. Voter Behavior: Research suggests that voter decisions are heavily influenced by partisan loyalty and social identities, often overshadowing rational economic considerations.

3. Cultural Distractions: Republican strategies leveraging cultural and moral issues effectively divert attention from policies that may adversely affect the working class.

4. Democratic Challenges: The Democratic Party's shift towards neoliberalism and professional elitism has alienated traditional working-class voters, necessitating a reevaluation of strategies to regain their support.

5. Race and Prejudice: Racial resentment remains a significant factor in the political preferences of white voters without college degrees, challenging simplistic economic explanations.

6. Future Strategies: Reconnecting with the white working class requires addressing both cultural and economic grievances, moving away from top-down reforms to more inclusive and grassroots approaches.

Notable Quotes

• Michael:

  “What am I supposed to do?” [00:19]
  “Let me just hold my breath, pause for a moment, and try to picture what that's like.” [01:52]
  “People always talk about this with legalized weed... support will remain if Kamala Harris made that the centerpiece of her presidential campaign.” [30:42]

• Peter:

  “Frank is correct in the sense that he has identified a real population that is shifting away from the Democratic Party.” [09:27]
  “Larry Bartels, an esteemed political scientist... Here's another one.” [07:24]
  “Racial resentment increases as economic distress increases.” [48:02]

References and Further Reading

• Thomas Frank, "What's The Matter With Kansas?" (2004)
• Larry Bartels & Christopher Achin, "Democracy for Realists"
• John Zaller, "The Nature and Origins of Mass Opinion"
• Benjamin Page, "The Rational Public"
• John Sides et al., "Identity Politics"
• William Marble, Political Scientist, University of Pennsylvania
• Nick Karnas & Noam Lupu, Political Scientists on Voter Behavior

Conclusion

Michael Hobbes and Peter Shamshiri provide a nuanced and critical discussion of Thomas Frank's "What's The Matter With Kansas?", integrating academic research with personal insights to explore the complexities of political realignment in Kansas. The episode underscores the intricate dance between cultural identities, economic policies, and voter behavior, offering listeners a deep dive into the factors shaping contemporary American politics.