FRENCH ROYAL DIAMOND HEIST: MARIE ANTOINETTE'S NECKLACE

Summary

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If Jewels Could Talk with Carol Woolton

Episode: FRENCH ROYAL DIAMOND HEIST: MARIE ANTOINETTE'S NECKLACE

Date: November 20, 2025
Host: Carol Woolton
Guest: Vincent Melin (French historian and author)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the tumultuous and dazzling world of Marie Antoinette’s jewellery, centering on the infamous affair of the diamond necklace—one of the most consequential scandals in French history. Host Carol Woolton and historian Vincent Melin trace the origins of Marie Antoinette’s legendary collection, her personal style, and the scandal’s political reverberations that shook the French monarchy in its final years.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Marie Antoinette’s Jewellery Origins

(02:07–04:26)

• Marie Antoinette arrived in France with significant jewellery as part of her dowry, its value estimated at 500,000 gold francs—roughly 200,000 florins.
• Due to strict protocol, foreign princesses were stripped of clothing and possessions except for their jewels.
• Her mother, Empress Maria Theresa of Austria, prioritized jewellery over clothing for her trousseau, as only jewelery could be retained across borders:

  “Buy as much as you want of jewelry and diamonds because that's the only thing she will be allowed to keep.” (02:23, Vincent)

• Upon arrival in France, she received even more: an estimated total value of 2.5 million gold francs in jewels, both inherited and gifted.
• Early on, Marie Antoinette dazzled at royal events, sometimes wearing dresses embroidered with up to 1,000 loose Crown diamonds.

  "You would put diamonds everywhere on your dress. I mean, you would sew them on your dress.” (05:20, Vincent)

2. Taste and Comparisons: Marie Antoinette vs. Royal Mistresses

(06:38–09:07)

• Madame de Pompadour and Madame du Barry, the famed royal mistresses, actually outspent and in some ways out-styled Marie Antoinette.
• Madame du Barry’s collection, in particular, eclipsed that of the queen’s private jewels.

  “Madame du Barry's jewels were by far the best ever...Marie Antoinette was a bit Germanic in her taste.” (07:47, Vincent)

• Marie Antoinette’s style: described as “royal, imperial...like a goddess,” more rigid and ceremonial.
• Her reputation as “Madame Deficit” stemmed less from actual extravagance and more from France’s deteriorating finances and her visible spending during lean times.

3. Crown Finances, Court Politics, and Fashion

(10:32–15:20)

• Under France's monarchy, the King—and by extension, the Queen—could use state funds, unlike the English royal civil list regulated by Parliament.
• The extravagance of the French court became a political issue as finances tightened, stoking resentment:

  “She was really spending money from the budget, the state budget.” (11:38, Vincent)

• Marie Antoinette’s tastes embraced non-French styles (rococo, oriental influences), which set her apart culturally and stylistically from Parisian elites.

  “Rococo is not French at all...it's German.” (12:26, Vincent)

• She was more a patron—reacting to, not dictating the motifs—leaving creative decisions largely to dressmakers and jewellers like Rose Bertin and Aubert.

4. The Politics of Appearance and Motherhood

(15:24–18:43)

• Marie Antoinette’s bold fashion and jewellery spending were, in many ways, compensations for isolation at court, personal loneliness, and a lack of children in her early marriage.
• The tone shifts after 1780, when she becomes a mother; her fashion becomes more restrained and her debts diminish:

  “Her worst excess in fashion were between 1770 and 1778 or 80...She stops buying diamond around 1780-81.” (16:27, Vincent)

• Her conspicuous consumption is reframed as a kind of emotional outlet—a substitute for comfort eating.

5. The Diamond Necklace Affair (Main Heist Story)

(18:43–30:07, Key Segment: 19:28–29:30)

• Origins: The necklace was commissioned for Madame du Barry as a spectacular piece, with over 3,000 carats of diamonds, but remained unsold after King Louis XV’s death.
• The jewellers Beaumer and Bassenge tried—unsuccessfully—to sell it to Marie Antoinette, who declined, reportedly calling it “massive...more for a man or a horse.”

  “She had said no two or three times, saying, actually, it was not a very nice piece of jewelry.” (00:18, Vincent)

• Heist Plot:
  • Jeanne de la Motte, descended from the Valois kings but impoverished, hatched a scheme to acquire the necklace by duping Cardinal de Rohan, who wished to curry favor with the queen.
  • De la Motte recruited a prostitute resembling the queen to impersonate Marie Antoinette during a secret midnight “meeting.”
  • Cardinal de Rohan arranged the purchase through the jewellers, believing it was for the Queen, and handed over the necklace—only for Jeanne's accomplice to smuggle it away.

  “She used the Cardinal Rohan...saying, oh, if you facilitate this necklace, she'll be very happy.” (22:37, Carol)

• Aftermath: When payment failed to appear, the jewellers appealed to the Queen, who had no knowledge of the transaction.

  “The queen was. What does he mean? I'm talking about that necklace.” (25:40, Vincent)

• Public trial ensued, with Marie Antoinette insisting the matter go public—a catastrophic PR error that branded her further with scandal.

  “Her honor has been touched. I want everything to become public. And therein lies her mistake.” (27:46–27:55, Carol & Vincent)

Notable Quotes, Scandal Segment:

• “He was not very clever. I mean, those people, you have testimonies, you have letters...he was making gold with wood and another one was saying he was making diamonds.” (22:48, Vincent)
• "Cardinal Durand was absolutely sure he would be Prime Minister because the idea was to get some more power." (24:57, Vincent)

6. The Necklace’s Fate and British Connection

(31:00–34:35)

• Jeanne de la Motte’s husband smuggled the necklace’s diamonds to London, sold them to William Gray, a jeweller.
• British noble families (Sutherlands, Angleseys) have traditions claiming their jewels contain stones from the infamous necklace.
• Both the Anglesey negligee and Sutherland necklace are discussed as possible heirs to the lost diamonds, with Vincent having traced their provenance in his scholarly work.

"The Sutherland necklace is just the best piece of jewelry ever." (32:57, Vincent)

• Both are displayed in the Victoria and Albert Museum.

7. Diamonds as Political Catalysts

(34:35–35:27)

• The necklace affair made royal jewels a political symbol, crystallizing public anger over royal extravagance during a time of economic privation.
• Analogous to a modern political spouse being caught in a luxury scandal.

8. Marie Antoinette’s Jewellery in Modern Times

(35:27–39:39)

• Some of the queen’s jewels survived—smuggled to Brussels and then Vienna by loyalists in 1791.
• Her famed pearl pendant fetched $36 million at auction—driven less by intrinsic worth, more by the power of her story and name.

"The pearl is absolutely amazing, but the price was not linked to the value of the pearl...the price was a special problem of, you know, when you have two buyers at auctions." (35:50, Vincent)

• Surviving pieces, including her diamond bracelets, are among the few direct vestiges of her personal style. Their survival is attributed to luck and careful familial inheritance.

9. Marie Antoinette’s Enduring Legacy

(40:16–43:36)

• Carol and Vincent reflect on why Marie Antoinette’s story endures in jewelry history and popular memory.
• The tragedy and violence of her execution amplify her myth in contrast to figures like Josephine, who, though more extravagant, died peacefully and is largely forgotten.

“Marie Antoinette was beheaded. I mean, like Mary, Queen of Scots, those two will be famous forever with Princess Diana...” (42:13, Vincent)

• Her political role, dramatic life, and personal artifacts contribute to the continuing fascination.

“She was born in purple and she died in jail. I mean, something absolutely amazing.” (42:34, Vincent)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You would put diamonds everywhere on your dress...Diamond on sleeves, diamond everywhere.” (05:20, Vincent)
• “Madame du Barry's jewels were by far the best ever...Marie Antoinette had that kind of royal taste, imperial taste.” (07:47, Vincent)
• “The Queen has never seen the sea.” (23:55, Vincent)
• “She stops buying diamond around 1780-81. She gets gifts from the King every year. But the awful times where she had a lot of debt are over because she became a mother.” (16:27, Vincent)
• “My honor has been touched. I want everything to become public.” (27:46, Marie Antoinette as paraphrased by Vincent)
• “Her death must be dated from the diamond necklace trial.” (30:13, a historical assertion attributed to Napoleon)
• “She was born in purple and she died in jail.” (42:34, Vincent)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Arrival and Austrian trousseau: 02:07–04:26
• Crown jewels, taste, and comparisons: 05:13–10:32
• Court finances and style: 10:32–15:20
• Motherhood and fashion shift: 15:20–18:43
• The diamond necklace affair: 18:43–30:07
• Necklace’s fate in Britain: 31:00–34:35
• Diamonds and revolution: 34:35–35:27
• Marie Antoinette’s jewels at auction: 35:27–39:39
• Her historical legacy: 40:16–43:36

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Tone and Language

Carol Woolton guides the conversation as an enthusiastic, knowledgeable jewellery historian, asking pointed and insightful questions. Vincent Melin responds with detail, humor, and precision, often drawing on archival research and personal anecdotes, maintaining a balance of factual rigor and lively storytelling.

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Final Thoughts

This episode fuses the grandeur of lost jewels with sharp historical insight, portraying Marie Antoinette as both a fashion icon and political casualty. Listeners come away with a groundbreaking view of her style, the backstabbing court, and a scandal that marked the end of royalty’s sparkling age in France—a legacy still glittering in modern exhibitions and auction houses.

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Transcript

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Leibish Coloured diamond Specialists. Did you know that only one stone in 10,000 discovered is a coloured diamond?

[B]

The irony of all that is that we are absolutely 100% sure that Marie Antoinette was not 1% involved in that story. She had nothing to do. The necklace had been presented to her by the jeweler. She had said no two or three times, saying, actually, it was not a very nice piece of jewelry. It's quite massive. I like it because it's massive, but it's more for a man than actually or a horse.

[A]

I'm Carole Houlton, the voice of jewellery. Welcome to if Jules Could Talk. I'm an author and broadcaster and the woman who initiated the role of jewellery editor at magazines like Tatler and Vogue. This is a podcast for everyone, for people who do like jewellery, for people who don't realise they like jewellery, and anyone intrigued by fascinating facts, new ideas and forgotten histories. So join me as I tell sparkly tales and meet all sorts of people delving into four centuries of jewellery culture and investigate what's happening now. We are continuing our discussion about the most fashionable queen in history, Marie Antoinette. And I'm delighted to be here with French historian and author Vincent Melin, who has written in the catalogue for the new exhibition at the VA Museum, Marie Antoinette's Style, about the queen of sparkle diamonds, fashion and politics. Vincent, thank you so much for talking to us this morning.

[B]

Thanks for having me.

[A]

Let's start at the beginning. When she arrived on French soil, what kind of jewellery did she have with her? Vincent?

[B]

She had quite a lot because, you know, I found in the Austrian State Archives in Vienna that there was a letter from the French ambassador to the Austrian ambassador about the details of the wedding. And one of the letters was that anything in terms of clothes that she would receive from her mother would be removed completely from her when she crossed the border, because new French clothes were waiting for her in Strasbourg on the border. By the way, the silly idea that she got there naked is absolutely silly because she did not arrive naked. But the same ambassador says that the only thing that foreign princes were allowed to keep from their own family and from their dowry was jewelry. And he's actually writing to the Empress of Austria, don't buy any clothes because they will be confiscated and given to the staff. And buy as much as you want of jewelry and diamonds because that's the only thing she will be allowed to keep. So basically, I think she got something like 200,000 florins, which would be 500,000 gold francs of jewelry bought by the Empress. And there's a very interesting letter which says the Empress writes to the ambassador in Paris saying we don't have enough diamonds in Vienna, so could you please buy a few in Paris and send them to me in Vienna to organize the dowry of the archdochester. So she had a lot of jewelry from Austria and then she got a lot from France.

[A]

So Maria Theresa, her mother, was she buying loose stones or was she having these set in an Austrian style and giving them to Marie Antoine?

[B]

I don't know because we have the list of the jewels which she actually took and there is a list of the jewels which were bought in Paris for the trousseau. So maybe in Vienna she bought a few loose stones. This I don't know exactly, but there's a list of two pair of diamond earrings, one diamond necklace and all the jewels which they used to wear on dresses and so on. So I can't tell you that kind of detail exactly, but we only have the list of jewels.

[A]

So she arrived with plenty of jewels and then she would be given some as the wife of the dauphin. When she arrived, four times more. Four times more because she got 500,000.

[B]

Gold francs from her mother. And when she arrives, not in Compiegnes, I think it's in. She arrives in Compiegne and then there is a party not in Versailles, but the night before at Chateau de la Muette. She dressed for the big party of the day before the wedding in Versailles and she received all the jewels from her late mother in law, Princess Marie Joseph of Saxony, which had been bought back by King Louis King. And the total is 2 million gold francs of the time. So 2 million plus 500,000. I mean, 2,500,000. It's more than. It's really a lot, a lot, a lot.

[A]

And some of these were what was considered to be, to be part of the crown jewels and was considered nothing.

[B]

All these jewels were private jewels. Nothing. She got the crown jewels after that. I mean, when she became queen, or she could even use them when she was still a princess, because there was no queen at the time. Louis Quinze was a widower, his wife was dead. But all the jewels I've just mentioned were private jewelry.

[A]

Wow. No wonder she sparkled and shimmered.

[B]

Absolutely. One of the first letters we have from the crown jeweler when she becomes a queen is a letter addressed, addressed to, I think it's to the queen, the new queen lord in wedding or whatever. And he says, he writes in the letter, I've just had a strange request from Mademoiselle Bertin who was doing her coterie. And Mademoiselle Bertin requests me to send to her atelier all the diamonds, all the loose diamonds which are in the Crown property because she wants them. She wants to embroider them on a dress which has been ordered by Her Majesty the Queen. So as the number of diamonds is around 1000, could you please confirm that the order is from the Queen? Because I don't want to send over 1,000 loose diamonds from the Crown property. And of course, you were shining. I mean, think about it. 1000 diamonds on your dress plus 2 million at the time. You would put diamonds everywhere on your dress. I mean, you would sue them on your dress. They would be diamond on sleeves, diamond everywhere.

[A]

And tell me, was this unusual behavior for the wife of the dauphin? Was this more in line with, say, Madame de Pompadour or Madame du Barry, the mistresses of the kings, than a young future queen? To be so bedecked in jewels and to enjoy them and to enjoy them like fashion items.

[B]

You should not start me on this because that's my. Yeah, I actually think that Madame de Pompadour had a very traditional French good taste. So nothing too much. Not too much jewelry. I mean, she was very. She had wonderful pieces, but they were very well made. And she was not. She had some diamonds, but she was not obsessed about diamonds. She was more obsessed with style, furniture, paintings, china and so on. Madame du Barry was an even more important customer to jewellers than Queen Marie Antoinette herself. I mean, if you compare both collections, we have in Paris the archive of the jeweler who was the jeweler of both of them. He used to sell pieces to Madame du Barry when she was King Louis Quin's mistress. And then he sold. He became Marie Antoinette jeweler when she became queen. I mean, private jeweller, I'm not talking about crown jeweler, it is called Aubert. And the orders made by Madame du Barry are far, far, far, much bigger than the one made by Marie Antoinette. I mean, Marie Antoinette had the crown Jewels, which was something important. But I mean, both collections were absolutely amazing. Madame du Barry's jewels were by far the best ever. And I think Madame du Barry really had good taste. Marie Antoinette was a bit Germanic in her taste. She was very. She liked fink to be very, very royal. I mean, she had that kind of royal taste, imperial taste, which was very. It had something to do with dignity and being like a goddess. Madame du Barry was much more feminine. But both Collections were absolutely spectacular.

[A]

So that's interesting for two things. One is I think that Marie Antoinette obviously very quickly gained this reputation for profligacy. A lot of people blamed her for the national. In France, she was going to be called Madame Deficit, but in fact, Madame du Barry spent more, Empress Josephine spent far more. And yet Marie Antoinette had that reputation.

[B]

Yes, but Madame du Barry and Empress Josephine by far is the most amazing lady shopper of royalty. I mean, she would spend all mornings shopping. I mean, from 8 o' clock to until 12, she would go shopping, she would shop in her apartment in the Royal Palace. The times were not the same. That's the big difference. I mean, when Madame du Barry was spending millions of money, France was quite okay. I mean, there were no problems in finances. All the debts made by Louis XIV had been, were gone. I mean, France was quite happy during Louis XV's reign. That's the reason there were so many new inventions, styles in terms of painting, furniture, jewelry and so on. The court had a lot of money because the country had a lot of money. And I'm not talking about Josephine, because with Josephine, beginning of 19th century France was basically enslavering half of Europe, taking money from everywhere. So Josephine had a budget which was absolutely spectacular. The problem is that Marie Antoinette started doing, doing this. France finances were becoming worse and worse. That's the reason people gave her that name of Madame Deficit. It's because there was a deficit. There was no deficit during Madame du Barry's time or Empress Josephine's time.

[A]

And she was a handy person to blame for this because she was Austrian, she wasn't French.

[B]

Yes. But around that time, with so many problems everywhere, it was not very clever to spend that much money. And diamonds were one part of the budget. I mean, dresses were absolutely amazing. Pensions and estates and money given to all her entourage. I mean, she was a big spender. She was definitely a big spender and not only about money. And she was a big spender at a time where it was not very clever to spend that much money. And it was one thing you have to understand because it's a bit difficult to understand this today. At the time, even in England, there was a law. The King was using the money given to him by parliament. He had already a civil list. In France, it was not the case at all. In France, the King could use all the money from the whole country. He was checking all the finances. There was no limit to the finance of the King. He was still king owner of the kingdom, using all the taxes. The way he Wanted to use them. That's one of the things that the revolution wanted to have at the beginning. They wanted the king to have one sum of money to spend every year, controlled by parliament, to do exactly like the English kings would do. But they wanted to end that kind of absolute rule of the French king on money, on taxes. That's the big problem with Marie Antoinette. She was really spending money from the budget, the state budget.

[A]

So the other point you've made, her Germanic style. I always thought her style was so pretty and feminine. You know, it's very rococo, intricate patterns, ribbons, beau motifs, swags, festoons. I always think of it as very, very pretty.

[B]

Yes, but you mentioned it. Rococo. Rococo is not French at all. Not at all. It's German. And all those flowers everywhere. Madame du Barry was very French in her style. Madame du Barry was born not in Paris, but she was brought up in Paris. It's not always pejorative when I say rococo and German. For example, Marie Antoinette brought something to France which French people did not know. For example, Chinese taste, Chinese lacquer, Japanese lacquer. She had a huge collection of that, all that gold everywhere, use of semi precious stones, pietra d' or and all those things. You have to keep in mind that her mother was empress already of part of northern Italy. So there was definitely an Italian influence on Marie Therese and Marie Antoinette. And the Turks were not very far away because I don't have the exact number date, but something like 20 years before Marie Antoinette was born, the Turks were laying siege on Vienna. So they were still part owner of the estate of the empress within Romania, Bulgaria. So there was an Oriental influence on the Habsburg style, which was not French at all. We were coming from Louis XIV and very straight lines. And some things were good, some things were a bit too, too much for France because so many flowers, so many ribbons. But the style was very different. I mean, she didn't have French style and taste at all.

[A]

So who was making it for her? Was she asking for these motifs?

[B]

I think we have a wrong idea about that because we always think that leaders in fashion, even today, they are really choosing the motif and so on. No, I think the stylists were doing it. Rose Bertin was definitely actually, Rose Bertin was not sewing at all. She was just creating garlands of flowers and ribbons and so on that she would put on the dress. But it was her own ideas. And in terms of jewelry, what the queen would buy were what the jewels were making. I don't think there's one Special letter in the French archive thing. The Queen would like a design like this. I mean, and actually, I think it's 1781 or 82. She came, she asked her jeweler, who is Aubert at the time, to change a big piece de corsage, you know, the diamond things which they used to wear on the front of the dress, which was huge. And she does it because fashion has changed and Aubert is doing something in a new design, but there's no. He does it in the new design that he chose himself. Maybe in terms of colour, maybe she liked some colour better than others. That's true, but I don't think in terms of style.

[A]

Okay, so she was reacting to what there was and what was new.

[B]

First of all, Marie Antoinette is a political person. In France, we still have a very political view of Marie Antoinette. People are for Marie Antoinette or against Marie Antoinette. And it's true that she was political because she used to write letters. I don't like the term, but in a way, she was actually spying for the Austrian court. I mean, she was writing to her mother. I've been talking to the King about the Bavarian problem and I want him to do anything which is best for your Majesty's interest. And sometimes it was a bit tricky with King Recess because we have letters or mention of King Recess saying, please take care of your own business and don't bother me with that. Abroad people have an image of Marie Antoinette, which is very fashion. And so I think the right Marie Antoinette would be between the two. She was a queen of fashion, but she was a queen of fashion because she was a political queen and she needed that face and obviously fashion and the way she wanted to look good, the way she wanted to look beautiful and the way she used to buy diamonds and fashion and dresses is very much linked in terms of dates to the time when she is not a mother. Her worst excess in fashion were between 1770 and 1778 or 80. After 80, fashion in Marathon becomes much more relaxed. She has simple dresses and she doesn't buy any diamonds anymore. I mean, she stops buying diamond around 1780-81. She gets gifts from the King every year. But the awful times where she had a lot of debt are over because she became a mother. Obviously she had something else in her life. So I think she was political and a lot of the way she acted during that time was linked with the fact that nothing was happening with her husband and she had nothing to do and she didn't know anyone at the court.

[A]

So instead of comfort eating she was comfort diamond buying dressing a bit.

[B]

I mean that's very understandable because one thing you have to know about that family and the Court of France is that those people were not very nice people. I mean, all around her all the people were trying to backstabbing, backstabbing and getting some money or estates or titles or whatever. Even the royal family, the three old aunts were not very nice. The brother in law was absolutely dreadful. The other one was spending money more than anything else. I mean it was not a very nice family. So she was alone in the middle of all this. Nothing was happening with her husband. I mean during seven years, it's quite a long time she had no children, she had no family because she came from Austria. She was 14. Well, she had to do something. So the only thing she could do was look to herself in the mirror, try to look good. And there is also something a bit Freudian in the way she wants to look good because why would you want to look good when you are a young bride? You would want to look good because nothing happens with your husband.

[A]

You're attracting your husband.

[B]

Absolutely take notice of you or anyone else.

[A]

Yes. So it's within that atmosphere that we get to the sort of pivotal point of her story and we talk about the affair of the diamond necklace. The statesman Talleyrand wrote at the time, watch out for this diamond necklace business. It may well rock the throne of France. Well, we know that it did. There is a recreation of it in the show at the VA Museum. But let's talk about it. It's a really extraordinary story of Anson, isn't it? It's like a kind of play and it's almost. You can hardly believe that it took place. So let us set the scene or of the necklace was originally made for Madame du Barry, wasn't it?

[B]

The idea was to create something spectacular for whoever was the wife of the man who had the more money in France at the time. So they started collecting diamonds for that necklace when Louis XV was still alive. He died after two years. The necklace was not finished and it was finished in the years 1780s and.

[A]

It was made by a company called Beaumar and Bessange.

[B]

Absolutely. Two jewelers were both German actually Beaumer was a French origin, he was a Huguenot. His family had fled to Germany at the end of 17th century. He was actually married to a very interesting lady who was a prima ballerina, a dancer who is mentioned in Casanova's memoir as a very sexy lady. So the history of the necklace is quite interesting. And the irony of all that is that we are absolutely 100% sure that Marie Antoinette was not 1% involved in that story. She had nothing to do. The necklace had been presented to her by the jeweler. She had said no two or three times saying, well, and actually, it was not a very nice piece of jewelry. It's quite massive. I like it because it's massive, but it's more for a man than actually or a horse.

[A]

It had nearly 3,000 carats of diamonds, a huge choker around her neck, festoons of smaller stones running from the shoulders to the breastbone, frills that were hanging down the back to the waist. I mean, this was huge.

[B]

No, no, it's a huge, huge thing. I mean, even you sometimes wonder when you look at it. I mean, how could you wear something like this? I mean, you have to be in a very formal dress. It's not something that you wear for a dinner party at the country. I mean, it's really a bit difficult to wear. But the big, big mistake of Marantoelette, the big mistake she was. And once again, we go back to what's happening in the background.

[A]

So, first of all, tell us. Basically, a Madame de Lamotte came in and decided to basically create an idea for a robbery, a heist using the name of Marie Antoinette.

[B]

Madame de la Motte was an actual descendant of the Valois kings. So she was part. Her great, great grandfather was a bastard, but he was definitely the son of King Charles IX. And since that birth at the end of 16th century, that family had gone very, very poor. So she had a nice name. She was La Motte Valois. But she was absolutely broke, when I mean broke. She was begging in the streets and she was clever and she managed to get herself into court. And the name was obviously known because with that name she would be automatically at court because people knew who she was. She was a direct descendant of the Valois king and she needed money. So basically she decided to steal the necklace that. There's no way to. You can't put it in another way.

[A]

But she used the Cardinal Rohan, who wanted to gain favor with Marie Antoinette, and used him as an intermediary, saying, oh, if you facilitate this necklace, she'll be very happy.

[B]

That's basically the idea. And you have to keep in mind that Cardinal Durand was very stupid, I mean, and desperate. He was not very clever. I mean, those people, you have testimonies, you have letters. For example, Baron de Berkirche, who says that she went to the court of Cardinal de Rohan in Strasbourg. He was prince bishop of Strasbourg. And she was absolutely amazed of the stupidity. People used to make him believe that. One of them was saying that he was making gold with wood and another one was saying that he was making diamonds. I mean, it was a very, very. Not a very clever person. And you need to. There's something that you need to keep in mind. Those people had no education. They had never been to school. They had never studied anything. They knew nothing about the world. They had never traveled anywhere. Marie Antoinette neither. Marie Antoinette is the only French queen who has never been anywhere in France. Nowhere. She never, never, never traveled. She came to Vienna, to Paris, straight. She remained in Versailles and then in Paris. She has never been even 100 kilometers north of Paris. Marie Antoinette has never seen the sea. Think about it. She has never. This is something which is impossible to. The queen of France has never seen the sea. Never. She's never been anywhere. Those people were really living in a.

[A]

Kind of cage, a bubble, a Versailles.

[B]

A bubble. I mean, there was no reality there. So obviously they were a bit ready to believe anything. I mean, as long as you would curtsy tell them, oh, my God. That's the job of those people. Flatterers. They earn their living on flattering people much higher and much richer than them.

[A]

Yeah. So Madame de la Motte found a prostitute on the street who had a passing likeness to Marie Antoinette and fooled Cardinal Rohan that this was Marie Antoinette.

[B]

Buying the necklace at midnight in bushes in Versailles. 3 meters distance with a veil on the face. Could you believe it? And apparently the prostitute gave Cardinal Durand a rose, saying, you know what this means, okay? And Cardinal Durand was really not very clever. So, my God, the queen has given me. We're not telling tales. I mean, that's the actual truth. And Cardinal Durand was absolutely sure he would be prime Minister because the idea behind this was to get some more power. So he thought that the queen could do anything she wanted with the king. And if he was in favor with the queen, he would become prime minister of France because obviously France needed his wisdom. And then what happened is that of course Madame de la Mode Valois said, okay, the queen would like to buy the necklace, but everybody's saying that she spends too much money. Could you please buy it on her behalf? And of course we will send you the Monet. And as Cardinal Durand was the first, he was someone very, very official at the time because he was the first clerical person in France. He was high omnier of the court of Versailles. So he was the direct link to the pope in France. I mean, no one was higher in Catholic church in France at the time than Cardinal de Rohan, except the pope. I mean, the person who is next to the pope comes to you and said, okay, you've got to trust me. I'm going to sell your. Of course, Beaumer and Basange believed the Cardinal de Rome, who himself believed that he was acting for the queen. And the amazing part of the story is that one night the necklace came to Cardinal Durand's house in Paris. Two hours later, a valet came without any, sent by Madame de la Motte Valois, with a uniform bearing the arms of the queen. He took the box with the necklace inside. He said, oh, Madame de la Motte, the queen thanks you very much. And no one ever saw the necklace again. And when the jeweler was not paid, which is whatever, he sent letters to the queen saying, you, Majesty, you've taken my necklace. The first payment should have been 400,000 francs. We are two months late. What's going to happen? We need the money because we've got to pay back the merchants who have sold us the diamonds. And the queen was. What does he mean? I'm talking about that necklace. All the story is told by Madame de Campan, the queen's maid. And in the end, they had to make an inquiry and to ask the jeweler what he was talking about. And he said, okay, I've given to Cardinal de Rohan the diamond necklace. He was acting on behalf of your Majesty. And then they had to call Cardinal de Rohan. What did you do? And the king took everything in charge secretly at the beginning. And they wanted to do the whole thing secretly. And the queen, this is definitely the queen. Marie Antoinette said, no, my honor has been touched. I want everything to become public.

[A]

And therein lies her mistake.

[B]

Absolutely the most amazing mistake. Because, of course, her reputation was so bad at the time already. The irony is that really at the time, she had stopped buying diamonds because as I said before, diamonds. She bought diamonds a long time before that. And everything was public. And all the people took the side of the Cardinal de Rohan, saying, he's a nice man. The queen has stolen the necklace and she wants the Cardinal de Rohan to carry the blame. And even if Madame de la Motte was condemned very harshly, people said she's taking the blame because she's a loyal subject. But the one who should be whipped in public is the queen.

[A]

So Marie Antoinette was innocent of any wrongdoing in the affair, but it didn't help her.

[B]

It's worse than that it made her the bad person for everyone. And, you know, before that, people in Paris, I mean, people around the court knew that she was spending a lot of money, but not in the whole country. That whole necklace affair became a kind of national scandal. I mean, all the newspapers everywhere during one year were talking about that. I mean, everybody was talking about the necklace affair. So even a peasant in the country knew what had happened or thought he knew what had happened, because. And that's the big mistake of Marie Antoinette. She should have never, never, never made this public, because she was not guilty. So they could have done it very quietly. The King should have paid for the necklace quietly, tried to do anything he wanted with Madame de la Motte Valois, get back the diamonds if he could, but nothing should have gone outside. It was 1785, so very close to the beginning of the Revolution. France was in huge debt at the time, mainly because of the American war, because it had cost France a lot of money. One billion, Frank, at the time. So it was a huge mistake from the Queen and the King agreed, who said, yes, let's go public. Both of them, at the beginning of the first mistake was the Queen's mistake.

[A]

And didn't Napoleon. Hasn't Napoleon said the Queen's death must be dated from the diamond necklace trial?

[B]

I don't know, because, you know, Napoleon is supposed to have said so many things, sometimes you don't even know what it actually said.

[A]

But it's a reasonable.

[B]

No, no, it's a reasonable assumption. Absolutely. And it's quite true that revolution started in 1785 or 1786, you know, when Cardinal Durand was absolved. He got out of the Bastille Prison. I think it's 1786. I mean, some 50,000 people were waiting for him outside, cheering him and saying, well done, my Lord Cardinal, what you've done. The Queen has tried to blame you. She's an evil woman. You're the best. So on. I mean, it was a national scandal. Something absolutely huge. Huge, huge.

[A]

And meantime, Madame de Lamotte's husband took the diamonds over to London. The necklace went to London to a jeweller called William Gray and was broken up. And since then, there has been the tradition in two British aristocratic families, the Angleseys and the Levison Gowers, that their necklaces contained diamonds from the Beaumain and Bessange necklace that was broken up.

[B]

I think the Sutherlands.

[A]

The Sutherlands.

[B]

Is more documented than the Anglesee. So the Anglesee is possible. The Sutherlands does make sense, because at least we know that all the diamonds were sold in England. The jeweller knew exactly what it was all about, gave a list of the damage. He didn't say to whom he sold them, which is the big mistake. But at the time, you must not forget that the enquiry was not official. The reason we know that is because the Cardinal de Roule's lawyer proved that the diamonds had been sold by someone else than him, mainly the Comte de la Motte de Valois in London. But it was not the judge ordered that inquiry. It was an inquiry which was privately made by the Cardinal Durand's lawyers in London. So they didn't have. The jeweler was not obliged to answer the question. He did this willingly to exonerate the Cardinal de Rohan. But he didn't go beyond any details, asserting that he was not the one who sold the diamond. So we can't know for sure that the diamonds are the ones which are in the Sutherland necklace or the Angles and necklace. But it does make sense and there's.

[A]

A tradition that's gone down through the families verbally and they're both in the exhibition at the Victoria and Albert Museum.

[B]

Yes, but you have to admit that the Sutherland necklace is just the best piece of jewelry ever.

[A]

I mean, I love the angle. See, it's a negligee. It's this extraordinary scarf with huge tassels at the end, 300 golcon de diamonds. And you can tie it, wear it like a scarf hang. I mean, it's extraordinary.

[B]

I did the whole historical research for Sotheby's for the Anglesee negligee. And I think there might be a possibility that it was actually made for Lady Jose, who was King George III's mistress at the time and who was the mother in law to the 1st Marquess of Anglesee. So it would make sense that they have a piece of jewelry like this. Which doesn't mean that it was not made with diamonds from the necklace. But I think it's a wonderful piece of jewelry. But you have to have the fashion of the time to wear it. I think tied around the neck, it's a bit. Oh, no.

[A]

I tried it on. It looked great.

[B]

I tried it on, you know, the way I tried it on, I think it was something that you would use to hold the cape with one piece on that shoulder and another piece here, and the diamonds here in the middle and the tassels. It does work quite well, I think. I don't think it was a necklace, but I mean, the Sutherland necklace, when you have it. I mean, I didn't Try it on, of course, because I'm a man. But the diamonds are so amazing, I mean, so big. And the piece is very versatile because, you know, the cephalon necklace, you can wear it long, you can wear it short, you can wear it in two rows, one row. I mean, that's a necklace.

[A]

So, in effect, diamonds became political symbols of the Revolution.

[B]

Absolutely. And they were the most visible sign of the way Queen Marie Antoinette had spent money at a time where money was very short for French people and for the French government and French finances. It's exactly like if today, for example, you know, France has problems everywhere. If Madame Macron was. If someone revealed that Madame Macron had bought a diamond necklace, whatever, it would be a huge scandal here. I mean, it would be a huge scandal for any head of state at the moment. But at the time, it was the first of that kind of scandal and it was huge, huge, huge, because people, some people were actually starving in France. I mean, it was really a bad time for people.

[A]

So we know the story. The Queen is imprisoned and, you know, relatively recently, Recently a lot of her jewellery came to market and indeed, her pearl pendant has reached the highest price at auction of any jewel ever. $36 million at Sotheby's, wasn't it? Can you explain to us how these pieces survived and came onto the market?

[B]

The pearl is absolutely amazing, but the price was not linked to the value of the pearl or even to the Marie Antoinette collection. I think the price was a special problem of, you know, when you have two buyers at auctions, they want to get something and they have amazing lots of money, they fight with each other. And the pearl is Marie Antoinette, but it's not, you know, in Marie Antoinette, when she basically sent all her jewelry to Brussels in 1791. So one year before the Tuileries palace was taken by the mob and that she was taken into prison one year before that, she sent all the jewelry to Comte Mercier Argenteau, the Austrian Ambassador, who was living in Brussels at the time. And a list, there was a list of those jewels which I found in the Austrian State Archives, detailing everything that was inside the box. Because when the Queen was killed in 1793, at one point the Austrian Ambassador told the Austrian sir, I've got that box with the jewels. We have to do something about that. So they opened the box, they made an official list of all the jewels and the jewels were sent to Vienna. And Marie Antoinette's daughter, Madame Royale, who was the only one to get out alive of the prison of the temple, is the one who received the jewels in 1795, I think. 96. So anyway, the list mentioned pearls, round pearls, pearl shaped pearls, etc. But the actual pendant is not mentioned as a pendant. I mean, we know that the pearl is marantelette, but I'm not 100% sure of the pendant setting. The diamond bracelets are mentioned in the list with the same number of diamonds with the same setting. So I think the diamond bracelets which were sold one year later, I think it was at Christie's this time. They are the only testimony we have of Marie Antoinette's taste. I think she would wear more than one pearl. I mean, the price was absolutely amazing. But I don't think Marie Antoinette would wear only one pearl of that guy. Obviously it was a pair of earrings or something like that.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So it would be something not exactly the image that we have today of that pendant hanging from the necklace. But the diamond bracelets are exactly what you used to wear on a wrist. And they survived for pure luck, actually. Pure luck.

[A]

Because they were smuggled out.

[B]

No, they were smuggled out in 1791 when she sent them to Brussels, and then they were smuggled out to Vienna. And Madame Royal got them in 1795 or 6, as I said. And the strange thing is that she came back to France in 1815 because she married her cousin, the Duke of Angouleme. And when Napoleon lost his throne, Madame Royal came back to France. And as the King was not married, she was first lady of France after her mother. We have paintings of her wearing the diamond bracelets. And she went back into exile in 1830 when there was a new revolution. She had no children, but she left her jewelry in her will, which is in the Viennese archives, to three nephews, the Comte de Chambord, the Comtesse de Chambord and the Duchess of Parma. The part of the Comte de Chambord was sold at Sotheby's in 1930. Something. It was a diamond necklace. And the part we sold a few years ago was the part which had been left to her niece, the Duchess of Parma. And the reason it was left in the family is very strange. There were two generations of that family with many, many children, and only one of them got married and had descendants. So the jewelry was not divided, but purely for lucky reason, by luck. And it came when someone died five years ago and frozen. At that time, the jewelry had to be divided.

[A]

And there was a monogram ring with her initials, Massachusetts, with a lock of her hair.

[B]

There were three monograms, rings, One was Marie Antoinette, the other one was King Louis Father, I think. And there was a diamond brooch with a yellow diamond, which was also for Marie Antoinette's collection. I mean, there were two auctions and one of them was quite a large number of jewels. The second one was only the diamond bracelet. But all of this was. But there are still some around which we may find one day. Some of them are still somewhere around the world.

[A]

Somewhere someone's got them.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

But you were suggesting that that pearl pendant reached such an extraordinary price at auction because you had two people battling. But don't you think they were battling to own a piece, a symbol of Marie Antoinette?

[B]

Absolutely, absolutely. Of course. Of course. That's the reason we know that one of the buyers was Austrian, because that pearl belongs to an Austrian museum, which is in Vienna. So, I mean, the link with Marie Antoinette was absolutely obvious. She was born in Austria. So the idea was to bring back to Austria one piece of jewelry which belonged to Marie Antoinette. So, of course, they were battling for Marie Antoinette souvenir and this sort of.

[A]

Legacy, this extraordinary legacy that has grown up around her ever since, that we hold onto, I think, around the world, not just in France. But do you think that is because of her extraordinary style and her taste, or do you think it's because of the tragedy of her death?

[B]

I mean, you've mentioned Josephine before. Who remembers Josephine, apart from you and me? And she was. I mean, she was.

[A]

And show me. And show me.

[B]

She was a much, much, much bigger spender and she was a much more important fashion icon than Queen Marie Antoinette. I mean, Josephine. And she was actually starting fashion. Josephine was much more involved in choosing. She used to wear shawls, which was something absolutely unknown in France. She got them into France at the time. She's the first one. We had a handbag. Did you know that there was a special handbag made for Josephine? She's the first lady in France who actually had a handbag. So Josephine spent 10 times what Marie Antoinette spent on fashion. Nobody remembers Josephine because she died in her bed. She died from flu in 1815 with her children around her at Malmaison in a wonderful bed, in a wonderful room. Everything was perfect. I mean, Marie Antoinette was beheaded. I mean, like Mary, Queen of Scots, those two will be famous forever with Princess Diana because they were young and their life.

[A]

And beautiful and beautiful.

[B]

And their life was cut short, I mean, by a stupid accident or by a very tragical death. So Marie Antoinette was 37 when she died. That's the horror of Marie Antoinette's Destiny. She was born in purple and she died in jail. I mean, something absolutely amazing.

[A]

It is. But she has left some of these jewels behind with which we can remember her and her style.

[B]

And if I may say, the death is also a political death. So we come back to the fact that Marie Antoinette is definitely a political character. Everything in Marie Antoinette is political. The way she was married, it was for political reason. The way she behaved at court was very much about politics. The way she behaved during revolution, writing to her brothers in law and so on was very much. And she died for political reasons. Had she not been the queen, she would never have been condemned on such low proofs. I mean, there was nothing in the proof. There was no proof she was killed for political reasons. But she was a queen of fashion. She has both aspects.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Which makes her even more fascinating. I mean, you have boring political people. Marie Antoinette was a fascinating political person.

[A]

Yes. It's hard to think of anybody else who has that, as you say, the fashion, the politics and the legacy that continues.

[B]

Mary, Queen of Scott must have been quite someone. She was Queen of France. She was beheaded. She was good in fashion, she had wonderful jewelry. She's a bit farther down in history, but she's also Queen Cleopatra of Egypt is also that kind of person. She's dying for political reason, poisoning herself. She was beautiful. She was a woman of power. You can find a few of them in history, but not that many.

[A]

Not like Marie Antoinette. Well, thank you, Vincent, so much for sharing all that knowledge with us. It's fascinating. Thank you very much.

[B]

Thanks to you. It's been fun.

[A]

Thank you for listening. For this and other episodes of if Jules Could Talk, please go to our website. Website carolwalton.com do share it any way you can and we love to have a rating and a comment. I'm Arolwalton on Instagram and we have a YouTube channel so you can watch some of our episodes. For more about our sponsors, that's www.leibishdiamondjewelry.com and the book of the podcast is out. If Jewels could talk and please join us again for the next jewelled nugget. And after all this French history, we're going to New York. I'll be talking with rock and roll royalty and we'll be talking about rock and roll jewellery made in New York. Please join me then and thank you for listening. Bye bye. If Jules Could Talk with Carole Woolton is produced by Natasha Cowen Music and editing by Tim Thornton Graphics by Scott Bentley Illustration by Jordi Labander.