MRS MOUSSAIEFF - THE PRIVATE JEWELLERY LUMINARY

Summary

If Jewels Could Talk with Carol Woolton
Episode Summary: MRS MOUSSAIEFF - THE PRIVATE JEWELLERY LUMINARY
Release Date: May 22, 2025

In this captivating episode of "If Jewels Could Talk," host Carol Woolton delves deep into the illustrious world of Mrs. Moussaieff, the enigmatic figure steering the renowned House of Moussaieff. With a legacy spanning over 160 years, the House of Moussaieff has been a beacon of exquisite jewelry craftsmanship on London's prestigious Bond Street, recently expanding its presence to the luxurious Peninsula Hotel on Hyde Park Corner.

1. A Storied Legacy and Personal Journey

Mrs. Moussaieff shares the rich history of her family’s jewelry empire, tracing their roots back to the 12th century along the Silk Road in Bukhara. Initially specializing in natural pearls, the family expanded their expertise to include emeralds from India, laying a strong foundation in precious gemstones.

Notable Quote:
Mrs. Moussaieff [00:06]: "You've got to live. Jewelry to sleep, jewelry to dream, jewelry."

Married at 18, Mrs. Moussaieff was immersed into the business early on, learning the intricacies of gemology from her husband—a hands-on education that emphasized experience over formal qualifications. This practical knowledge has been pivotal in maintaining their status as one of the world's premier jewelers.

2. Cultivating a Distinguished Clientele

The House of Moussaieff boasts an impressive roster of clients, including wealthy celebrities and royal families. While legendary figures like Elizabeth Taylor have had interactions with the brand, Mrs. Moussaieff clarifies that it was her husband who personally sold jewelry to Taylor at the Dorchester.

Notable Quote:
Mrs. Moussaieff [04:10]: "Elizabeth Taylor did not come. Richard Burton didn't come. But my husband went to see Elizabeth in the Dorchester where he sold her some jewelry."

Clients often visit during unconventional hours, reflecting the high-profile nature of their patronage. The establishment maintains strong relationships with long-standing clients, ensuring a loyal customer base that spans generations.

3. Passion for Precious Gemstones

Mrs. Moussaieff expresses a profound affinity for vibrant and rare gemstones. Emeralds, rubies, and colored diamonds from the Argyle mine—particularly pink diamonds—are her favorites. While pearls remain a cherished asset, their rarity has increased, making high-quality natural pearls even more sought after.

Notable Quote:
Mrs. Moussaieff [08:09]: "It was always emeralds. Rubies and coloured diamonds came later, much later."

She introduces the concept of "charm" as an essential quality in gemstones, emphasizing that beyond technical specifications, a stone must resonate on a personal and emotional level.

Notable Quote:
Mrs. Moussaieff [09:43]: "I put the charm first."

4. Navigating Market Trends and Investments

The discussion transitions to the fluctuating market for colored diamonds, particularly blue diamonds, which have seen significant appreciation in value. Mrs. Moussaieff highlights the rarity and investment potential of these stones, advising collectors to prioritize personal appreciation over speculative gains.

Notable Quote:
Mrs. Moussaieff [21:06]: "It's not only the earth doesn't turn up, and privately people somehow don't sell because before it constituted a large part of their fortune."

She also shares insights on market dynamics, noting that while the demand continues to drive prices upward due to limited supply, discerning collectors are cautious, ensuring that their investments align with both passion and prudence.

5. Embracing Industry Evolution and Competition

Mrs. Moussaieff reflects on the transformation of the jewelry industry, noting the influx of fashion brands into the high-end jewelry sector. These brands often focus on semi-precious stones, presenting both competition and opportunities for traditional jewelers.

Notable Quote:
Mrs. Moussaieff [24:12]: "The fashion brands at the moment do a lot of semi precious, so they're..."

She underscores the importance of maintaining authentic connections and expertise, which remain irreplaceable despite the changing landscape. Additionally, she acknowledges the pivotal role of social media in expanding global visibility and attracting a diverse clientele.

6. Collaborative Creativity and Modern Trends

Highlighting the significance of innovation, Carol and Mrs. Moussaieff discuss past collaborations, such as with designer Anna Hu, known for her musically inspired and elaborate brooches. These partnerships blend traditional craftsmanship with contemporary design, catering to evolving tastes.

Notable Quote:
Mrs. Moussaieff [26:39]: "I'd love to. If she shows us some very interesting designs, we'd be very happy to do it."

Current trends favor bold statement pieces like brooches, large earrings, and unique single-stone rings. While embracing modern cuts and designs, Mrs. Moussaieff remains an advocate for classic shapes like pear and marquise, ensuring timeless elegance in her creations.

7. Showcase of Exquisite Creations

The episode features an exclusive tour of the House of Moussaieff workshop, where Mrs. Moussaieff presents some of their most stunning pieces:

• Pink Diamond Bracelet: A masterfully crafted piece that exemplifies the harmonious blend of color and brilliance.

  Notable Quote:
  Carol [28:10]: "It's so fluid. Even though it's a cuff, it looks like a sort of shining, sparkling fabric."

• 40-Carat Red Diamond: The largest certified red diamond in the world, sourced from Brazil and displayed at the Smithsonian Institute.

  Notable Quote:
  Mrs. Moussaieff [21:33]: "Well, there's nothing rarer than the red at the moment."

8. Sustaining a Legacy: Business Insights

Concluding the conversation, Mrs. Moussaieff imparts invaluable advice on running a successful jewelry business:

• Commitment: Absolute dedication is non-negotiable in the competitive jewelry industry.
• Adaptability: Staying abreast of market trends and embracing modern marketing tools like Instagram.
• Trust and Reputation: Building and maintaining trust with both clients and suppliers is paramount.

Notable Quote:
Mrs. Moussaieff [30:16]: "You've got to live in it, that's what it is. You've got to live. Jewellery to sleep, jewelry to dream, jewelry."

She emphasizes that while evolving with the times is essential, the core values of passion, trust, and exceptional craftsmanship remain the pillars of enduring success.

Conclusion

This episode offers a rare glimpse into the world of high-end jewelry through the lens of a true luminary. Mrs. Moussaieff's blend of tradition, passion, and strategic insight provides both inspiration and actionable wisdom for jewelry enthusiasts, collectors, and aspiring jewelers alike. Whether you're captivated by the allure of rare gemstones or intrigued by the dynamics of the luxury jewelry market, this conversation is a treasure trove of knowledge and storytelling.

Stay Tuned:
Join Carol Woolton in the next episode as she explores portrait jewels with Emma Rutherford, a specialist in miniatures from the 1520s to the 1870s.

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Produced by: Natasha Cowan
Music and Editing by: Tim Thornton
Graphics: Scott Bentley
Illustration: Jordi Labander

Transcript

[Mrs. Moussaef]

You've got to live. Jewelry to sleep, jewelry to dream, jewelry. You've got to wake up in the morning and say, let me call Hong Kong, they're up now and let's see what is going on there. And wait till they call you from New York.

[Carole Woolton]

So you have to be 100% committed.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Exactly.

[Carole Woolton]

And then if you're committed, how do you build your business? Do you think now people should have stores.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Very few will survive.

[Carole Woolton]

So what should they do?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Do something else.

[Carole Woolton]

I'm Carole Houlton, the voice of jewellery. Welcome to if Jules Could Talk. I'm an author and broadcaster and the woman who initiated the role of jewelry editor at magazines like Tatler and Vogue. This is a podcast for everyone, for.

People who do like jewelry, for people.

Who don't realize they like jewellery, and anyone intrigued by fascinating facts, new ideas and forgotten histories. So join me as I tell sparkly tales and meet all sorts of people delving into four centuries of jewelry culture and investigate what's happening now. I've just been whisked via a brass framed elevator into the VIP Art Deco client room at the 160-year-old House of Mosayev. This has been the home of the family jewelers on Bond street since 2006 and they've just recently opened a new store at the brand new Peninsula Hotel in London on Hyde Park Corner. And I'm here to meet the legend that is Mrs. Moussaef, who's been steering the family multi million dollar jewelry enterprise specializing in exceptionally rare and precious stones since the retirement of her husband. I've written before in Vogue. No one knows the full extent of the Moussa hoard, amassing an unfathomable trove of natural pearls, every shade of diamond on the spectrum and beyond, as well as the trays of the finest gemstones in show stopping sizes. The volume and variety of their spectacular jewels include some of the world's rarest gems. And they've been catering to the wealthy celebrities and royal families from what is widely believed to be one of the best inventories in the world. And Mrs. M, as the trade calls her, is notoriously private. So I couldn't be more delighted that she's chosen to speak with us today.

Thank you, Mrs. Moussa, for having me today.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

It's a great pleasure.

[Carole Woolton]

And where are you happiest? Are you happiest in Bond street or in the Hilton on the Park Lane?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

I would say the Hilton was obviously the first place here in London where we settled and it was a great experience. Unfortunately, the cell buy Date of the Hilton is there? The Hilton before was the best hotel in London.

[Carole Woolton]

This was in 1963 when you first went there.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

The Hilton opened in 1963. We opened with it and we got in the flow of Arabs, Americans, Indians, the lot.

[Carole Woolton]

They all came to the Hilton.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

They all came to the Hilton. So we were very lucky to get some of the best families jewelry buyers.

[Carole Woolton]

But you're still happily there?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

I'm still there. It's a bit of sentiment and a bit of business because we still have our regular clients back from years. Their children or grandchildren come there.

[Carole Woolton]

Really? Yes, because they just expect you to be there.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Yes, and I do go there when somebody asks me to come.

[Carole Woolton]

So was that where Elizabeth Taylor used to come and see see you? Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton, did they come there?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Well, Elizabeth Taylor did not come. Richard Burton didn't come. But my husband went to see Elizabeth in the Dorchester where he sold her some jewelry.

[Carole Woolton]

Yes. Because she was always stayed at the Dorchester.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Yes.

[Carole Woolton]

So you took the jewels to her?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Yes.

[Carole Woolton]

So she could just play jewelry for a while.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Exactly.

[Carole Woolton]

And what did she like from you particularly?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Well, she loved an emerald bracelet which she bought. And there was an episode with my husband. She requested him to come around midnight, which is quite usual for celebrities to.

[Carole Woolton]

Request jewelry at midnight.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Exactly. Well, not only Elizabeth Taylor, but we had many clients where we had to wait at the Hilton late into the night till they appeared.

[Carole Woolton]

Really? Yes, it's just on their schedule.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Exactly. And then they never came. There was never any morning activity. Clients were. The morning liquidity was in order to put the stuff together, to put the jewelry together, to see stones, to see designs. The selling started in the late afternoon.

[Carole Woolton]

So interesting with the Hilton. So that's how your days went.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Yes.

[Carole Woolton]

And your, your husband had a very long jewelry history, didn't he? His family were traders and they traced the ancestry back to the 12th century.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Well, I don't want to exaggerate, but a very long time they were in Bukhara, they were on the Silk Road, and they went to the Gulf, the Middle Eastern Gulf, what today is called.

[Carole Woolton]

The Emirates, to get natural pearls.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

To get natural pearls.

[Carole Woolton]

So they started off pearl dealing, they.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Started off with natural pearls, and then they started to get emeralds from India.

[Carole Woolton]

So precious stones was in his blood and in his bloodline.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Exactly.

[Carole Woolton]

And when did it spark in you? Was that when you married or had you had a love of jewelry before?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

No, I got married when I was 18 and that's when I was dumped into a jewelry bank.

[Carole Woolton]

So you learned fast Exactly. Did he teach you, did he show you and did you learn from him?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Yes, I definitely learned from my husband all my life because he was extremely knowledgeable and he was knowledgeable without formal education. Today everybody has got to have a degree from the gia. This didn't exist in the olden days. He worked on what you saw and what you felt.

[Carole Woolton]

An experience. Because you can compare what you've seen.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Of course, experience. Exactly.

[Carole Woolton]

When I talk to other people, they always say you have to have seen the best of the best to know what it is.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

You have to compare all the time to know what is better.

[Carole Woolton]

So it is just that building up of every time you bought and built the inventory, you would learn more.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Exactly. And also, whenever you hear of something that's for sale, whether you are in the market or not, you've got to go and look at it. Then once it's in your mind, you know that this is what you're going to compare it in your mind in the future.

[Carole Woolton]

So you have to remember.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Exactly.

[Carole Woolton]

You have to have that memory bank.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Indeed, yes.

[Carole Woolton]

Which is quite hard. That is quite hard, yes.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

But you see, it comes easily because that's what you like doing. It's not that you want to have to remember figures, because that is secondary. First of all, you've got to remember the shape, the size, the quality, the colour.

[Carole Woolton]

And were there stones that you were more naturally drawn to? I mean, were there milo pearls or different coloured diamonds or different spinels, Anything that really captured your imagination?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Well, it wasn't the spinels because we didn't get a chance at the time to see many spinels, but it was always emeralds. Rubies and coloured diamonds came later, much later. Colored diamonds started when the Argan Mile opened and we started to pick up every single argyle.

[Carole Woolton]

All the pink and blue or mainly.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Pink, more pink and less.

[Carole Woolton]

There was some blue but mainly pink. So really for you it was very strong colours. Emerald, ruby pink diamonds. Very strong colours.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Yes. You can also include sapphires and a lot and sapphires, you can throw them in.

[Carole Woolton]

And the pearls, did you keep loving the pearls?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Yes. But the pearls were rarer and rarer.

[Carole Woolton]

Yes.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

I mean, they didn't appear anymore this century. Nothing new came up before. There was still the Mahradha sold and there were some European families which sold. Now there's absolutely nothing of high quality.

[Carole Woolton]

Because the ones that they're diving for now, you can't compare.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

The quality's gone, the size and the quality is all gone.

[Carole Woolton]

Such a shame, isn't it?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Well, that's Left.

[Carole Woolton]

When you're looking to buy a stone or a pearl, what's in your head? You obviously have this memory bank to compare it to other exceptional things you've seen. But what is it that you're after? Because I read somewhere that you said a stone must have charm.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Exactly.

[Carole Woolton]

And I wondered what charm was. This isn't obviously a technical term that.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

I heard much, so let me correct you. You're never looking to go and find the stone, because if you look, you won't find it. You've got to grab it when it.

[Carole Woolton]

Comes, so people are bringing them to you. But you're going running around the world looking at things.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

You've got to do the auctions, you've got to have your ears open to whatever there is. And you also look at deals.

[Carole Woolton]

So you've got your ear to the ground. You hear what exactly.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

You've got to be there at the right place at the right time and have the cash available to get it.

[Carole Woolton]

And do you have a checklist in your head of what you're looking for? Size, quality, colour. And what is this charm? How do you describe charm?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

I don't think I can describe charm. You've got to feel it, it's got to talk to you. If it doesn't talk to you, leave it.

[Carole Woolton]

And you know, if it talks to you, it will talk to one of your clients.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Yes. And there are some clients who've got this feeling and want to buy these charming stones. There are some clients who go for the certificate to the great chain.

[Carole Woolton]

So by that they're just wanting flawless or vvv.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Yes, they want a certificate. Yes.

[Carole Woolton]

But presumably everything comes with a certificate anyway.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

No, no, the certificate comes in surplus of the charm.

[Carole Woolton]

Charm first. It's the fifth C. You heard it here first. It's cut, clarity, carat, weight, colour and charm. It's the fifth C. But you think the most important one.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

I put the charm first.

[Carole Woolton]

Yeah. Can you say what the most. One of the most startling stones you've seen? One of the most beautiful that you've seen.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

There were so many.

[Carole Woolton]

So many.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

There were so many.

[Carole Woolton]

Too many. Is there one gem? I mean, out of the rubies, emeralds, sapphires, coloured stones. What do you prefer? You're also quite famous for not wearing jewellery. But should you have jewellery today, I can tell you everybody, she has no jewellery on. There's unbelievable things she could wear and has chosen not to wear them.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Well, you know, some jewellers sell what they wear. I wouldn't. If I wear it, it's not for sale, it's yours. Exactly.

[Carole Woolton]

So you just don't need to sell it in that way. You think other people. But you don't want to wear it just because it makes you feel nice.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

I'll tell you, it makes me feel very nice. But once I wear it, I know I'll never sell it.

[Carole Woolton]

I see. Oh, I see.

It's that.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

And then I will only want to wear the very, very best. Should I want not to? Well, I would say it's not for sale. Definitely.

[Carole Woolton]

And your collection would get too big.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Exactly.

[Carole Woolton]

But if you did, would it be something green, blue, pink?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

They're all my babies.

[Carole Woolton]

So when I've seen you wearing these brooches, which are large and they're made in titanium to make them very light, you also have sort of checklists that you go through when you're creating a jewel. What do you think makes a design successful?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Well, you've got to have the stones first to make it successful. Once you have a collection of stones which you can marry together, then you.

[Carole Woolton]

Can think about the design and then the way you put them together. Is there any technique that you follow that you know, people like that will make it a design that appeals to people?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Well, you're talking here about sellability and it's a correct thing. There is a time when there is the abstract design, which is interesting for some people. It's the flowery design, which is interesting. I would say flowers are still interesting. There was a time when people wanted animals. I don't know if your body were not around at the time. I looked at some old Kurchinsky brooches. Tiny ones?

[Carole Woolton]

Yes.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

They were all little animals.

[Carole Woolton]

What was interesting is I saw Loewe literally have just had a press morning and have showed their new collection and it included little golden wired animals on pendants. Like little poodles, little frogs, little dogs.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Exactly. But it was very, very fashionable.

[Carole Woolton]

It was in Van Cleef did a lot, didn't they?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Yes.

[Carole Woolton]

And you think that fashion is gone now, but Loewe are trying to bring it back.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

But it needs a lot of creativity because an animal is something alive. So it's very difficult to create something to look alive.

[Carole Woolton]

And flowers never go out of fashion, do they?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

No, they always are in fashion.

[Carole Woolton]

And when you're designing, do you prefer, in the process, do you prefer the buying and looking for stones or the designing? Which do you really love doing?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Well, you have to have it first. I'm coming back to what we said before. You need to have the stones first. So of course this is the first love. But then you've got them on the table, you throw them on the table and you combine them on the table before it gets put into design. And in a definite form, it gets first of all into an abstract form. And then you refine, you cut, you add, you give it volume.

[Carole Woolton]

And you do that primarily in the morning before the sales start.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Even now I like to come in the morning when I went look at the stones.

[Carole Woolton]

I guess you need the light as well, do you?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Yes.

[Carole Woolton]

And that has to be natural light.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

I walk here through the window, but before I used to look only at the Hilton, but here I have plenty of natural light.

[Carole Woolton]

When we talked about fashions and the flower always being in fashion, how much does that affect the market in precious stones?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Me? Not at all. Flowers for me is very much a sideline, beautiful sideline. But our market is more either the market buying for occasions like weddings or mostly for weddings or the other market just buying for investment. So the flowers for me is just a pleasure.

[Carole Woolton]

So the big stones for weddings, in which continent would they be? Would they be in the Middle east or India? Are they weddings here in London?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

We don't cater so much for the weddings in London, unfortunately, because there are other people much better placed for that. The Middle east and India, definitely.

[Carole Woolton]

Well, they have such joyous weddings, don't they?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Yes.

[Carole Woolton]

And they need a lot of jewelry.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Yes.

[Carole Woolton]

Whereas here our brides have a pearl earring, if that.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Sometimes it's not quite so, maybe changes a bit.

[Carole Woolton]

And a tiara, possibly. Do you still make tiaras for brides?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Well, we made one or two tiaras. It's not a great seller.

[Carole Woolton]

Everyone loves to think that tiaras come back, but they don't really, do they?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Well, maybe a royalty wear the rings.

[Carole Woolton]

Yes, royalty. But I suppose when some stones in fashion terms have been disregarded in the past and then they're suddenly brought back into the public eye and the public want them sort of like cognac color diamonds and things like that.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Well, the cognac diamonds came back into fashion two or three years ago and they're flourishing because the price is more affordable.

[Carole Woolton]

So that's why people like them. They can get a bigger look for less money.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Exactly. And they sparkle, especially if you have them with a bit of orange. Dark, very dark orange cognac is not as desirable as the orange one.

[Carole Woolton]

And I suppose that's easy, makes it easy for your design to pick out other colours that come through.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Well, you can match all sorts of colours with yellows, darker yellows, Lighter yellows.

[Carole Woolton]

Do you like the matching of the colours? Do you like a. I love it. You like it?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

I love it, yes.

[Carole Woolton]

So it gives it a more powerful look.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Exactly.

[Carole Woolton]

I think that you've been slightly ahead of the game, haven't you? Because you've amassed a lot of stones over the years. So if things come back into fashion, you have a store of them, don't you?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Not of all of this. Nothing ever lasts. I've been using them for a few years now, but I still have some.

[Carole Woolton]

And what about the blue diamonds? Because you've gone through a period of buying a lot of blue diamonds, haven't you? And at record breaking prices.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Well, they never went down. Even know that the market is a bit weaker and people say it won't fetch the prices. The gems do fetch the prices.

[Carole Woolton]

Was it a 5.16 carat blue that was part of the De Beers millennium collection and that sold for 49.9 million Hong Kong dollars at an auction, Sotheby's auction in Hong Kong. So it was 1.24 million per carat. And you were quoted at the time as saying it was a bargain.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

It was a bargain because today it would have been that sort of quality. Two and a half, conservatively. $2,500,000 a currency.

[Carole Woolton]

So that's how much blue diamonds have risen in price.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

No, not all blue diamonds, not all special ones. Special ones, don't forget. So for every 100,000 diamonds, you may.

[Carole Woolton]

Get a blue one and then to find an exceptional one is even rarer.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Exactly.

[Carole Woolton]

But it does seem, as you said, that some people are buying for investment, that these rare coloured diamonds keep rising in value.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Up to now they kept rising in value. Maybe one year ago the rise stopped, it's leveled and we'll see how we go in the future. But I believe they can only rise because it's supply and demand. There is demand and new supply. Every year there are more billionaires who want something afford and the people suddenly become more sophisticated and get the knowledge they want to have something special.

[Carole Woolton]

How do you think they get the knowledge? Do they get it from you? From reading?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

From. Well, I suppose today when there's everything attainable on this thing on your phone, you read a lot more than people used to read before you follow more all the auction results.

[Carole Woolton]

Do you ever have clients who come to you and say, I want to start collecting and they ask for your advice?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Yes, yes, definitely.

[Carole Woolton]

And what do you tell them?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Well, I tell them that if you look for an increase in value, then don't start, you have first of all to like the item, to love the item and to be prepared to hang on to it. There's always a chance that the market can go drop. So if you can't afford it, don't buy it. Caution is the first.

[Carole Woolton]

I suppose that is good advice for any rare objects in the art world or any other sector.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Exactly.

[Carole Woolton]

Because every market can drop. But as you said, it just seems so unlikely for these sort of stones right now, because the earth doesn't throw them up.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

It's not only the earth doesn't turn up, and privately people somehow don't sell because before it constituted a large part of their fortune. Today, the figures have changed so much that people can pass it on to their own children. Then the sentiment comes into it.

[Carole Woolton]

But if we're talking about rare stones, we have to talk about your red diamond.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Well, it still is the largest ever.

[Carole Woolton]

Certified red diamond in the world, which is 5.11 carats.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Exactly.

[Carole Woolton]

And when did you first buy that one?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

I don't remember the year exactly. There has been a lot of talk in the trade that Goldberg had the diamonds as it was, but as a matter of fact, I think. But it's years and years ago that we knew about the rough before, but then we did buy it from the Goldberg family.

[Carole Woolton]

And so where had it been discovered?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Brazil.

[Carole Woolton]

In Brazil, Yes. And this is the rarest. If you did a sort of color chart of diamonds, red is at the very top, isn't it?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Well, there's nothing rarer than the red at the moment. You can figure orange is rare, green is rare, but red is still the rarest. In this size you can find reds, small reds, as much as you want.

[Carole Woolton]

And it's been exhibited at the Smithsonian Institute in Washington. Yes, and it is amazing.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

It is.

[Carole Woolton]

I think some people have the idea that it would be huge and it's not.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

It's not.

[Carole Woolton]

Have you ever worn it?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

No. No.

[Carole Woolton]

Would you ever sell it?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Maybe.

[Carole Woolton]

And what would you estimate, do you think it would be?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

No figure in mind.

[Carole Woolton]

So I wanted to talk to you a little about the changes that you've seen in the industry over the years, because, as you say, from the time of learning the business with your husband, aged 18, and then coming to open up the store in the Hilton at a time when London was quite different to now on Bond street, when it's just full of fashion brands who all want to be in the jewellery sector. I thought you've spanned that period and you must have seen huge changes.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Well, the changes is that There is more money above. That's one of the changes because before the buying was for me more for occasions only. And now there's quite a bit. Apart from the occasional buying and the investment buying, there's also the fun buying. People want to wear something nice.

[Carole Woolton]

So people kind of are buying for the same sorts of reasons. But operating within the jewellery industry now is quite different, isn't it?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

I'm thinking what you call operating.

[Carole Woolton]

Well, I think buying you're competing now when they were just jewellers looking for these great stones. Now you're competing with fashion brands a bit.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

The fashion brands at the moment do a lot of semi precious, so they're.

[Carole Woolton]

Really focusing on the semi precious market.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

But it's not the semi precious prices, it's very expensive prices. It's still the people like Van Cleef and Bulgari who have the old style, the old stones, which I think are still very, very much prominent in this market.

[Carole Woolton]

And why do you think all the fashion brands want to have now a jewellery collection within what they offer?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

You have to ask them. Not me, I wouldn't.

[Carole Woolton]

And then of course social media and Instagram and all of that has changed was back in the day, you know, you might have advertised in Vogue and that was probably the only thing you did. And now of course there's this whole world on social media.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

It is extremely helpful.

[Carole Woolton]

It's helpful, yes. That's great. So how do you use it?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Well, if we put things on Instagram, we have people calling us and say, how much is it? And some sales result.

[Carole Woolton]

Do they always come and see it or do sometimes they buy just from Instagram?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Well, in this price range they have to see it. Mind you, we have clients who trust us and buy only from the Instagram. But it's not they buy from Instagram, they buy from us.

[Carole Woolton]

Yeah, that's a very good point. So it's a helpful tool. And a helpful tool, I guess if your stores are in London, to get.

You visible around the world.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Exactly. Well, we go to exhibitions as well. We go to the Middle east, we go to Qatar, we go to Abu Dhabi, we go to Saudi Arabia, they went to Courchevel. Unfortunately we don't go to Courchevel now because of government restrictions, but we try to go wherever it's possible. Everybody else does.

[Carole Woolton]

So is that a major part in the planning that you have to go where the others go to keep up, to get your name there with everybody else?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Yes, yes, but we would go in any case.

[Carole Woolton]

And you did collaborate a few Years ago with the designer Anna Hu. Yes, the Asian designer who lives in New York, who makes unbelievable jewels and huge brooches. Do you see yourself doing any more collaborations like that?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

I'd love to. If she shows us some very interesting designs, we'd be very happy to do it.

[Carole Woolton]

And you particularly like working with Anna?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

She's a very nice lady.

[Carole Woolton]

She is, isn't she? Yes, and extraordinary. She has her whole musical background. Makes it very interesting.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Well, she loves music, she loves sport.

[Carole Woolton]

And did all those pieces sell?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Well, we made a few pieces and some of them sold.

[Carole Woolton]

So what do you see, the biggest market now for jewellery, Is it the Middle east or is it America?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Well, America is a very big market, but unfortunately not for us. For us, we are more familiar with the Middle east and India and the Far east, of course. And the Far east is buying more for investment. Also less for occasions, more for investment.

[Carole Woolton]

So do you notice what people are wearing? What do you think people want to wear now? Are they wearing big parures? Are they looking for brooches? They're such a sort of brooch thing at the moment.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

I think brooches are very much in demand now. Yes, they are. And of course, it's the single stone.

[Carole Woolton]

Rings as an addition to engagement rings.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Yes. Large earrings, bangles, sort of everything. Yes, almost everything.

[Carole Woolton]

I always remember, actually, apart from all your amazing grand parures. You do those lovely little Briolette diamond long necklaces.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Well, everybody else does these. We're not special anymore, but it's.

[Carole Woolton]

They're beautiful, they're lovely and they fit with everything. And for young girls and the price point is saleable. And I saw that Chloe on the runways this season, are doing the boho look again and I think they're just perfect with that look. They're special diamonds, but nobody really knows what they are. They have this sense of mystery, really, don't they? It's not like I'm wearing something expensive.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Well, you see, it's the new cuts which come into it because every day somebody changes in a new cut. And that, of course, is very popular. People want something new.

[Carole Woolton]

So what cuts do you favor for those?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Well, I go more for the traditional cuts, pear shapes and marquises, but it's all these trapeze cuts. They call them bullet cuts. For instance, this one is. The bracelet isn't a special.

[Carole Woolton]

This is a lovely dark pink sapphire and diamond bracelet which I'll put on so everyone can see.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Special cut.

[Carole Woolton]

And what is that called, that cut? It's hard to describe. Yes, it looks. Because it Sort of looks triangular at first, but it's not. Well, it's different and it's got sides. Quite deep sides.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Exactly.

[Carole Woolton]

So does it have a name?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Well, I think we have to Christmas.

[Carole Woolton]

We have to christen it. Okay, that's beautiful. And then you've got the sort of yellow gold in the center of the pink sapphires, which is so effective.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

That's to show more of the pink sapphire, to show the colour.

[Carole Woolton]

It's gorgeous. It's very effective. They look like maybe the buttons of a maharaja. So spanning this history, how do you keep a business going all those years? Would you have any tips for people who are listening about how you run a business? Keep it going, keep up to date. Look at you at your age, saying I love Instagram and social media is very helpful. You're keeping up.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

No, but you've got to live in it, that's what it is. You've got to live. Jewellery to sleep, jewelry to dream, jewelry. You've got to wake up in the morning and say, oh, let me call Hong Kong, they're up now and let's see what is going on there. And wait till they call you from New York.

[Carole Woolton]

So you have to be 100% committed.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Exactly. And if not, go somewhere else.

[Carole Woolton]

And then if you're committed, how do you build your business, do you think? Now people should have stores.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Very few will survive.

[Carole Woolton]

So what should they do?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Do something else. They don't have to be in the jewelry type.

[Carole Woolton]

But do you think they could start a jewelry store on Instagram?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

No. No. You see, to start a jewelry, you've got to have the connections. You've got the connections in the trade which you build over the years. And even if you're as big as those fashion brands would they know exactly what they have to buy? I'm not sure. Of course they have the strength to borrow because they have the financial strength behind it. But whatever you borrow never comes out the same as what you own.

[Carole Woolton]

So it's hard for people to get going now because they can't do it in a traditional way, like opening a store?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

I think so, yes.

[Carole Woolton]

And you have done it also by having loyal customers. Do they stick with you over the years?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Yes. And not only loyal customer, but also loyal suppliers.

[Carole Woolton]

So you have to be absolutely 100% open with them.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Yes.

[Carole Woolton]

So it's sort of trust both ways.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

It all goes about trust in the jewelry trade. It goes about trust and reputation and.

[Carole Woolton]

You have your 160 year reputation behind you. Thank you. But Mrs. Moussair, thank you so Much for sharing that with us. And I'm going to now, if you allow me, take some pictures of some of these incredible things so we can run it on social media and show people as they listen to you. And what is your top pick here that you think? We've talked about that. The lovely pink and diamond bracelet. Is there something else here that you think is hot from the workshop and you want us to look at the.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Workshop, But I'm not sure that a lot of people would know what we're talking about. So let's show them some diamonds.

[Carole Woolton]

What, the emeralds? You don't think they know the emeralds?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Yeah, but you see, these are very, very fine emeralds. Cabochons. This is a rare pink sapphire.

[Carole Woolton]

That's amazing.

So this is one of the single stone rings you were talking about?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

No, this is.

[Carole Woolton]

Because this is so big.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

It's fashion, fashion, fashion. And here there is no fashion.

[Carole Woolton]

This is. I mean, how many carats is that, Mrs. Museum?

[Mrs. Moussaef]

It's over 40 carats.

[Carole Woolton]

40 carats. I'm going to have to take a picture. It fits me perfectly, literally. There's like, it's made for me. I'm going to take a picture of that and show everybody. It's absolutely beautiful.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

This is our classic. But it's obviously for the people who want something very expensive.

[Carole Woolton]

Marquise diamonds all the way around. A lovely weighty cuff with pink diamond accents.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Exactly.

[Carole Woolton]

I mean, it's so fluid. Even though it's a cuff, it looks like a sort of shining, sparkling fabric. It's absolutely beautiful and huge. Look for a small wrist. And at the back, I love the clasp, which is just set with little pink diamonds at the back. That's beautiful. You could wear it either way around.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

Yes, of course you could. It's your size. It's my size, but I really didn't bring anything, which I thought is sort of very much for the public.

[Carole Woolton]

No, it's beautiful. We'll take pictures. We'll get them up now.

So.

So, Mrs. Moussaev, thank you very much for hosting me this morning.

[Mrs. Moussaef]

You're very, very welcome. Thank you.

[Carole Woolton]

Thank you for listening. For this and other episodes of if Jules Could Talk, please go to our website, carolwalton.com do share the podcast any way you can. And we love to have a rating and a comment. And wherever I go, I love it. But that I meet groups who actually listen to the podcast together, whether they're in an auction house or they make.

A coffee at home.

And I just love the community feel of.

If Jules could talk, so if you.

Have stories like that, do share it with us. Don't forget, the book of the podcast is out. If Jules could talk on Amazon and any good bookstores and join me again in two weeks for the next jewelled nugget, when I'll be talking with Emma Rutherford, who was a specialist in portraiture, particularly miniatures from the 1520s to the 1870s. So we'll be talking portrait jewels, and it's a fascinating story. So join me then, and thank you for listening. Bye Bye. If Jules Could Talk with Carole Woolton is produced by Natasha Cowan. Music and editing by Tim Thornton. Graphics by Scott Bentley. Illustration by Jordi Labander.