← If Jewels Could Talk with Carol Woolton
If Jewels Could Talk with Carol Woolton
THE HISTORY OF DIAMOND ENGAGEMENT RINGS... AND THE MYTHS
00:47:18
with Marion Fasel
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- [00:01]
Carole Walton
This episode is brought to you by Leibish. Coloured diamond specialists. Did you know that only one stone in 10,000 discovered is a colored diamond?
- [00:19]
Marion Faisal
Of course you can trade it up. I mean, look at Victoria beckham. She has 12 rings or something. Some ridiculous number of rings, but yes, I think changing it, rearranging it, do whatever you want with it, it's really just a joyful jewel to enjoy.
- [00:35]
Carole Walton
I'm Carole Houlton, the Voice of Jewellery. Welcome to if Jules Could Talk. I'm an author and broadcaster and the woman who initiated the role of jewellery editor at magazines like Tatler and Vogue. This is a podcast for everyone, for people who do like jewellery, for people who don't realize they like jewellery, and anyone intrigued by fascinating facts, new ideas and forgotten histories. So join me as I tell sparkly tales and meet all sorts of people delving into four centuries of jewellery culture and investigate what's happening now. Welcome back to if Jules Could Talk. I'm Carole Walton, the Voice of Jewellery, and I'm delighted to be starting season eight. And I want to welcome our new sponsors, Leibish, who are coloured diamond specialists. And I also am welcoming Marion Faisal, the esteemed journalist, founder of the Aventurine, because we're going to talk about the history of engagement rings. But mostly I want to welcome you back and thank you so much for joining us and listening. I am so happy to have Marion Faisal back as a guest. Marion talked to us some time ago her exhibition Beautiful Creatures at the American Natural History Museum. So, you know, after this you can go back and listen to her talking about beautiful creatures. But today we are talking about her new book. She's a leading editor, author, as I said, exhibition curator and jewelry expert who's just added this new title to her prodigious output of Books on 20th century jewellery design and it is called the History of Of Diamond Engagement Rings. Marian, thank you so much for joining us from New York this morning.
- [02:35]
Marion Faisal
Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be back.
- [02:37]
Carole Walton
And what we're going to do, having read Marian's book from COVID to cover and looked at amazing imagery, everything you ever needed to know about diamond engagement rings. We're going to bust some myths about diamond engagement rings. So, Marian, I'm in. Misconception number one, is that people don't reach for a diamond engagement ring because they featured in the infamous De Beers advertising campaign, a diamond is forever. Is that correct?
- [03:05]
Marion Faisal
It is so true. And really it was shocking to me because whenever I begin a history project, you know, I have my experts in the field, I have the jewelry historians, you know, the editors, people that I speak with. And I always kind of bounce around my ideas. What do you think? What do you know about the history of diamond engagement rings? And so many people said to me, oh, that's a De Beers thing, right? And what they meant by that was that many people believe that the diamond engagement rings as an idea began in 1947 with the ad campaign with the tagline a diamond is forever. I was stunned, stunned. It is such a commonly held misconception among people that I love and respect and in the jewelry world. I mean, I simply stopped asking people because it's such a commonly held misconception.
- [04:04]
Carole Walton
I mean, when I hear that, I think it's vaguely insulting to the millions of people around the world for centuries who've chosen a diamond engagement ring for all its symbolism. And I think. Seriously, are you just saying that it's a modern thing, that people are sheep and they're told what to do and they go and do it?
- [04:22]
Marion Faisal
Yes, exactly. Because, I mean, if it was so easy for marketing and, you know, it's insulting. It's insulting. I've said that many times, the exact same thing. And the other thing is that they don't. Many people don't take into consideration the context which I'm about to tell you, my British friend Carol, is because in the same year of 1947, that was the year that Queen Elizabeth got engaged. And of course, we only know about the tail end of her life and the amount of press that she received in America at that time. She's such a popular figure for us as Americans and a romantic figure. I mean, when she got married the same year, it wasn't because De Beers told her to do so with a diamond. It is absolutely laughable. You know, people just. The campaign was so successful, people absolutely forget that anything else ever happened.
- [05:17]
Carole Walton
So people had used iron hoops, really, from the Roman days, and it became symbolic of the circle of life, eternity. Then they slowly introduced gold, when they were able to make gold malleable and use it in rings. And then by the 15th century, the idea of this eternity was strengthened by the value, beauty, mostly the invincibility of a diamond, wasn't it?
- [05:42]
Marion Faisal
Yes. I mean, it's really. It's, you know, it's the Renaissance. Here we are in the renaissance, in the 15th century. And of course, diamond rings were worn before that point, but they were worn mainly by men because they were symbols of power and symbols of prestige. And then in the Renaissance, you know, the world opened up to diamond jewelry and women, and that's when the history of diamond engagement rings began.
- [06:10]
Carole Walton
And so why do you think people began to choose a diamond? Was it for that idea of permanence?
- [06:18]
Marion Faisal
I think it was many reasons. And it's, you know, I don't really have an answer. You know, and in particular, because if our modern eyes look back at the diamonds that were used in those engagement rings, the point shapes, which are essentially a natural diamond, they're just polished up a little bit. They look like two pyramids joined at the base. They have nowhere near the fire and the brilliance of modern diamonds. I mean, they're beautiful in their character and they were rare and they were valued, but it is hard to say for certain why they were chosen. Yes, they're a symbol of strength and permanence. And I had always read before doing this book fidelity, which basically means you're going to be faithful to your husband. But also they were symbols of power. And I really got that with Italian engagement rings, diamond engagement rings in the 15th century, all the fighting that was going on with the fiefdoms in Tuscany, and those rings really meant we have a solid union, you know, and they were worn as that symbol of power. And some. I'm holding up my first finger for your podcast because, you know, you want.
- [07:33]
Carole Walton
Me to slip a diamond onto it.
- [07:35]
Marion Faisal
Exactly. And that's where the diamond went. And, you know, I have a portrait in the book of a woman wearing a diamond on that finger. And it was really, you know, we are a solid union. My husband might be away, you know, Mr. Medici might be away fighting, but don't mess with the family, you know, so it was many different reasons why people wore them, really a symbol of power, prestige, fidelity, the symbolism of the stone. But it certainly started in the 15th century.
- [08:06]
Carole Walton
As you say, they didn't sparkle, they weren't kind of show off stones as some people might use them now. But they were set in quite enforcing the idea of a union, weren't they? With sort of forget me nots, other motifs, decorative motifs that meant the joining a union.
- [08:24]
Marion Faisal
Yes, exactly. They were. You know, it's remarkable, or it was remarkable to me that it really has been the diamond solitaire all these times. But how it's decorated in the setting has certainly changed. You know, there's the gimmel ring, which is kind of a puzzle ring, as you say, the motifs of the forget me nots flanking the stones. You know, there's the sayings written in Latin, which are an evolution of The Posey rings that existed in the gold bands before diamond rings. So there's a lot of design that goes on in a very tiny amount of space. But, yes, it's always reflective of different eras or where they were made.
- [09:07]
Carole Walton
And, of course, people didn't call them engagement rings then, did they? It was sort of betrothal, wasn't it?
- [09:12]
Marion Faisal
It was part of the reason that the research was so impossible, because it's really, you know, it's not something that's easy to find. Betrothal ring, engagement ring, diamond ring. I just went. Betrothal ring means engagement ring. But yes, that's what they were called, but they were engagement rings. I mean, the purpose was.
- [09:31]
Carole Walton
It was a promise.
- [09:32]
Marion Faisal
It was a sort of promise. Yes, exactly.
- [09:36]
Carole Walton
And I guess many promises were broken along the way, but, I mean, nothing was binding. And the rings didn't mean that, did they? They meant. I suppose at that point, it was really two families coming together and joining more than two individuals.
- [09:54]
Marion Faisal
Yes, yes. I mean, you like to think there's love stories. There is one. You know, it's a big myth, certainly in the United States and certainly on the Internet, and it's been going on for decades, that there was such a thing as a first engagement ring, which was in 1477, when Archduke Maximilian presented it to Mary of Burke.
- [10:16]
Carole Walton
This is myth number two. We are busting. Okay, bust away, Marion.
- [10:22]
Marion Faisal
This is really, you know, it's a big myth for people in the jewelry world. I don't know overseas, but in the United States for sure. People always are spouting this. You can see. I read a million stories that said, oh, well, the first engagement ring was 1477. It was not. I don't know how this, you know, came to be such a popular idea, but it certainly was not. And I have, in the book, I brought that up, though, right now, because people do say that Mary and Max were actually a love match. You know, they read poetry to each other. But, you know, it was also a great union of two families and lots of land. But people somehow have this idea, and I think it might be because there's a portrait of Mary wearing the ring. So that's seeing is believing. But there is documentation that diamonds, diamond engagement rings existed before that. And there was a Sforza wedding, you know, in Italy that predates it. And there's documentation that I have in the book from the Vatican, which is not so easy to find. I mean, you will not find it on the Internet.
- [11:32]
Carole Walton
I know. It's. It's a lovely thing. And It's a lovely thing that they had. I'm. I'm very glad that I got that correct in my book. If Jules could talk as well. It came with that lovely saying of two hearts.
- [11:44]
Marion Faisal
Oh, yes, that's a beautiful saying.
- [11:47]
Carole Walton
Two wills, two hearts. Hearts, two passions are bonded in one marriage by a diamond.
- [11:52]
Marion Faisal
Yes, it's kind of amazing. And that big illustration, that's the point. Cut diamond. That's what they look like. So, yeah, that was really amazing. Not easy to get that illustration, I might add. If you've seen Conclave, I just had this vision of, like, Ralph Fiennes and Stanley Tucci approving my paperwork for application for the picture. But, yeah, but it's there.
- [12:18]
Carole Walton
It's there, and it makes your point. I wonder if people have that idea about Max and Mary, as you call them, because was Max maybe the first one to propose with the ring? They're ready in a modern way? No.
- [12:36]
Marion Faisal
No. I mean, I believe. No, I don't. I don't know why people think that. But Max had an advisor, and there was a famous letter, and he said, when you propose, because it was the coveted hand of Mary of Burgundy, and he had an advisor, and the advisor wrote him a note, which is well documented that it exists, and he says, when you propose, you must present her a ring with a diamond and also another piece of jewelry. And George Frederick Kunz, who's the father of American gemology and was the gemologist at Tiffany, he wrote in his book rings in 1917 when he read that famous note from the advisor. Well, it just sounds like it must be general advice at that point. And I was so pleased when I found Kunz's saying that, because that's what I always thought. The note didn't sound like. I have this great idea. This will do it. This will seal the deal. You will give her a diamond ring like it's the first time it ever happened. It's kind of like these are the rules of etiquette now. And that seemed to be what Kunz thought as well. So I was pleased that I was on the same page with George Frederick Kunz.
- [13:55]
Carole Walton
That's good. And I suppose Mary Tudor had a ring as a baby, a diamond ring, when she was engaged to the dauphin of France, aged two or something.
- [14:04]
Marion Faisal
Oh, wow. Yes.
- [14:05]
Carole Walton
And I think later on, with Philip II of Spain, it was just a plain gold band. So she reversed. Most people trade up a bit, and she reversed. But as you say, it was obviously the thing. It was a tradition. This is it. This will seal the deal. Which is what the Romans used it for, didn't they?
- [14:23]
Marion Faisal
Yes. And then they got the diamonds in the Renaissance, which just makes sense in terms of what was happening culturally. I mean, there's not, you know, kind of a silver bullet as to why suddenly women got the diamonds, but it fits.
- [14:36]
Carole Walton
Okay, so we're now on to myth number three, the vena amoris, that a lot of people think that the diamond engagement ring on the fourth finger of the left hand is because there is a vein that goes from that finger straight to the heart.
- [14:52]
Marion Faisal
It's so romantic, really. I hate to bust that myth, but there was a moment during the book when I wanted to call it Vaina Morris, you know, because it's such a romantic idea. But no, it does not exist. And the idea goes all the way back, as you mentioned, to ancient times when people believed there was such a vein and it was long before they had knowledge of the circulatory system. So, in fact, no does not.
- [15:20]
Carole Walton
And it was more likely to be linked to early Christian services.
- [15:24]
Marion Faisal
It certainly could have been. That's one of the things, you know, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost landing on the third finger of the left hand. You know, some people believe it's because it's sort of a little used finger, that it would be placed there. And it didn't really settle there permanently until, I can't tell you much later. During the Renaissance, it was worn on the forefinger, it was worn on various fingers.
- [15:53]
Carole Walton
So it didn't have to be the fourth finger. Because I think you have Eleanor of Toledo, don't you, in the book, as you said, on the second finger.
- [16:00]
Marion Faisal
Yes.
- [16:00]
Carole Walton
Which was definitely her wedding ring or her engagement betrothal ring.
- [16:04]
Marion Faisal
Oh, no, for sure. No, I didn't imagine these things. I got them from the museums where I did the research. You know, I had no way of, you know, saying it with certainty, but that's really how a lot of the information came together. Is that I, you know, it's not information you can Google. If you Google, you're going to find the myths the wrong.
- [16:23]
Carole Walton
The wrong.
- [16:23]
Marion Faisal
But I really, you know, went into museums individually looking for paintings where it could be shown and looking for rings.
- [16:31]
Carole Walton
Which was the most useful museum for your research, Marion? Was it the Met or.
- [16:37]
Marion Faisal
You know, the Met's the easiest, you know, living in New York. And I always cross reference the Met for jewelry history. They don't have as much jewelry as I wish they did. It's not like your V and A. But they do have the most incredible, you know, website it is, yeah.
- [16:56]
Carole Walton
It's documented beautifully, it's beautifully done, and.
- [16:59]
Marion Faisal
It makes it very, very easy to use. And there's lots of pictures. They invested a lot of money in it at one point. So when you're accustomed to that, it's actually a bit difficult to work with other museums. I mean, I did want something, you know, the VA has, you know, kind of scouting shots of jewelry on the website. And then you, you want the image and you think, well, will kind of silhouette it and, you know, spruce it up a little bit. No, they won't give that to you. They have to photograph it. So certain things, I was in the lineup in the, like the VNA photo studio for four months and then she, my contact had to ultimately say to me, no, we can't use it. You know, they couldn't squeeze my little ring into whatever else, what other treasures they were photographing. But I will say my favorite source was actually Eaton College because I was searching another myth. I don't know if you have this one, but another myth is that people really believe that only royalty wore diamond engagement rings up to 1947 that year. So I was very determined to prove that wrong as well. And I was trying to think of great love affairs. And so I landed on Elizabeth Barrett Browning and I thought, I wonder what kind of ring she has. And I did Google it and there was a Twitter post from Eton College and it had the ring. She had a crown, heart, rose cut, diamond ring. It was just a scouting shot and it was like for an anniversary of the Eton College library.
- [18:46]
Carole Walton
And so why, why did Eton College have it? Did he. Did Robert Browning go to Eton?
- [18:51]
Marion Faisal
Because their papers are there. Both of them.
- [18:53]
Carole Walton
Their papers are there.
- [18:54]
Marion Faisal
All of them. And so that's what happens with jewelry. Often it's just kind of the family just gives you everything to the museum. They just drop it off, you know, kind of here you go. And that was the case. So they had the ring, but they didn't have a professional photograph. And again, you begin with, you find it on the website, which is like going through microfiche some of these websites. So older, you know, we all know it takes a lot of money to update a website. And then I found it and then I emailed, you know, infoatoncollegelibrary or whatever.com and they got right back to me. But it took us months and months to figure out how to get their document photographer to photograph it. And then actually someone from Sotheby's went off and looked at it for me because I Was like, I really love Sotheby's London. Some eyes on this. So I think I had the longest, most enduring relationship with Eton College because it becomes like the ring is right there. I had to sign a non disclosure agreement when they sent me scouting shots that I would not publish them. And I thought, wow, we're really, we're into such a deep relationship. And it's just, it's a moment. It's just a moment in the book. But I was very, you know, I think seeing is believing with jewelry and people and today. And so it was very important to me to have that ring and to.
- [20:18]
Carole Walton
Show that it wasn't just royalty.
- [20:19]
Marion Faisal
Right.
- [20:20]
Carole Walton
Diamonds weren't just used for royal weddings, they were weddings as well.
- [20:25]
Marion Faisal
Yes.
- [20:26]
Carole Walton
So that was myth number four, that some people really think engagement rings are used as part of the wedding ceremony.
- [20:33]
Marion Faisal
Yes, they do. And engagement rings have nothing to do with the wedding ceremony at all. They're really, you know, they're a promise and a plan. It's an exchange of jewelry. It's really one of the most beautiful things. And I was so I fell in love with the idea and I also fell in love with the idea that every single diamond engagement ring, you know, there essentially are no rules. You know, there's no rules about these rings. And every single diamond engagement ring means something different to every couple that owns it. From, you know, Isabella Toledo, whoever up to Lady Gaga. They all mean something different to every couple. And I found that very beautiful. And no, it's taken off during the wedding ceremony with this ring is your band.
- [21:20]
Carole Walton
I wondered if that came because you mentioned gimmel ring on the sort of 16th and 17th century. Two rings maybe adjoined underneath that look like two rings that come together as one. And I guess it was the idea of Fede face, two hands joined that often held the diamond.
- [21:44]
Marion Faisal
Yes, yes. The idea of hands that was really very popular for a long time, you know, the union of the two hands on a design in an engagement ring and then the diamond got slipped in there somehow. Certainly on gimmel rings that exists. But the hands also exist just on ring designs in themselves as well.
- [22:05]
Carole Walton
Yeah, well, it's that sort of ancient idea of dextrarum unctio, that moment in the marriage when the hands are joined together. Whom God has joined, let no man put asunder. Or that idea of the hands clasped together. And that's a motif really widely used over the centuries, isn't it, to delete a marriage.
- [22:26]
Marion Faisal
And that engraving, that phrase is one of the most popular, you see on the Gimmel rings, is it? Yes, yes, exactly that.
- [22:33]
Carole Walton
At what point did the engagement ring and the wedding ring become separate? At what point do people feel they had needed two rings?
- [22:43]
Marion Faisal
It's a good question. You know, honestly, I was so focused on the diamond engagement ring, I didn't, you know, if I. My book is small format, you know, it's wonderful because you can put it in your bag. But it was also. I wish I had five volumes because I think there was so much more to review. But I think that that is a more contemporary idea. The layering of the rings, you know, Queen Charlotte, she had, you know, putting bands in with your engagement ring is something that has gone on for a long time. But I haven't done a full analysis on the band and the engagement ring.
- [23:25]
Carole Walton
It's very hard to detect, I think historically, really hard. And I don't know whether it sort of became that not everyone could have a diamond. So although it wasn't just for royal weddings, it had to be made of other metals that other people could get married and use a ring, but it wouldn't be a diamond.
- [23:44]
Marion Faisal
It's true. It's such an interesting question and it's really so funny because when I was doing this book, it was, you know, like most books nowadays, you know, all too well, Carol, there's no time, you know, as soon as you sign that.
- [23:57]
Carole Walton
Contract, you get that deadline.
- [23:59]
Marion Faisal
As soon as you sign it, just say goodbye to your friends and family and you're gone. And that was really the case here. Whereas everyone is pretty dismissive, honestly, of the history of diamond engagement rings. And, you know, months in, people would say, oh, you're still working on that, aren't you done yet? And, you know, a lot of these questions I wish I had more time to go into, you know, men's diamond rings and a lot of the trends that have, you know, come on recently that you can trace to the past. But the wedding band, I do think of, you know, the Welsh gold bands in the royal family. There must. That must have started at some point. You know, like, if I had to do that now, I might start with that idea and see when they did it, because that's so famous that they put used the Welsh gold for the wedding bands. I wonder when it began. Probably Victoria. Everything begins with Victoria.
- [24:54]
Carole Walton
All jewelry starts with Victoria. But maybe it was much more back to the sort of Roman idea. If you needed a ring, you couldn't afford a diamond. And so gradually the idea of this gold came in as, again, a very hard metal. And so people had both. Lucky people had both.
- [25:14]
Marion Faisal
Yes. Maybe that's what it was.
- [25:15]
Carole Walton
I don't know.
- [25:16]
Marion Faisal
No, it's a good question.
- [25:17]
Carole Walton
But what I loved the idea that you brought in that 19th century painting by John William Godwards in 1892 at the betrothal, showing a lovely Victorian lady sort of, you know, really sort of buffing up her diamond ring.
- [25:37]
Marion Faisal
Yes. Yeah. No, I love that too. I mean, I was trying to visually document as many moments with rings as far back as I could, and I do have several rings on that spread around that painting. Because if you just look at all the diamond rings available at the time, those are engagement rings. They're nothing but engagement rings. They have to be engagement rings. And I was enchanted by the image, which is very romantic because that's the way women still pose today. You know, when Lady Gaga, who is in the last chapter of the book with her big oval, you know, that first moment when a celebrity reveals their engagement ring, they're posing with it, you know, they're putting it out there. And so that sentiment has remained the same for hundreds of years. You know, that kind of. I can't stop looking at it. Look what I have. Isn't this wonderful? You know, there's a real glow and joy surrounding that moment of engagement and.
- [26:43]
Carole Walton
I think the sort of cultural markers that it was there during the Victorian period. And then in sort of our modern cultural life, we have all those moments in movies like Sleepless in Seattle on the floor of the Tiffany floor, being handed the diamond in a box. We have so many of those in movies, don't we?
- [27:01]
Marion Faisal
Yes. I mean, because, you know, it's really the way to bring together a narrative, isn't it, with the proposal. And, you know, Hollywood loves a good romance, that's for sure. With an engagement ring, even better.
- [27:15]
Carole Walton
You know, the little leather box comes out.
- [27:18]
Marion Faisal
The leather box comes out. Yeah.
- [27:21]
Carole Walton
And you can tell if it's Cartier or Tiffany by the colour.
- [27:24]
Marion Faisal
Yes, you can always. Yes, you can. Yeah.
- [27:28]
Carole Walton
I think for anybody getting engaged, this is a fantastic book because you see all the different cuts and the designs coming through. And do you think certain designers, like Tiffany, for instance, are culpable for some of the changes in designs? Not culpable, but they have really inspired and influenced diamond engagement ring market.
- [27:52]
Marion Faisal
You know, it was one thing that I didn't realize when I began the. I mean, I knew I was going to organize the modern part of the book based on diamond shapes, essentially the silhouettes of shapes, you know, the round, the square squares and the Rectangles. And then, you know, the, the fancier. You know, all shapes are fancy if they're not round. But I still feel like there's the fancier shapes, the higher level, the marquise, the pear, the heart. And I didn't quite. I had the beginning chapter when I have the deep history from the 15th to the 20th century kind of separate. And then I realized when I got to the end that I could do the entire history of diamond jewelry, you know, push us forward based on the evolution of diamond shapes. Because, you know, a solitaire was then and is to this day the focus of any diamond engagement ring. So that's the main driving force throughout the book. And it's kind of interesting because at the end now we are looking back to some of the earlier shapes. I've even seen point cut diamond rings from designers and portrait cuts and rose cuts and all the things that existed before the 20th century. But yes, there are designers as well, like Tiffany with the Tiffany setting. You know, a cynic will say, well, other people were, you know, making solitaires, you know, in a six pronged setting. But if you look at those original Tiffany settings, of which I have one in the book, it's just there's a real spareness to it. There is no, no detail besides holding up the diamond. And it's much closer to the band than it is in the ring as we know it now. But there's no engraving there. So they were really removing all extra detail, obviously, to sell it to a wider audience. And Tiffany did sell it in the end of the 19th century via a mail order catalog, which feels very American, you know, so that you could get a ring sizer and then say, I'll take that diamond ring. And so those designs, that absolute simplicity with no ornate detail, that's certainly a Tiffany innovation. And then with Cartier, I suppose, I think of, you know, Grace Kelly's engagement ring with the emerald cut, you know, flanked by tapered baguettes. But who did that first? I couldn't tell you. You know, she really popularized it and therefore I think of it as a Cartier, you know, kind of did it best. But there were many others doing the same sort of setting, the same arrangement of stone. So it's hard to say.
- [30:38]
Carole Walton
And I guess because I was amazed in your book that all the sort of contemporary celebrities that you feature all had diamond engagement rings. I mean, I found that very interesting, actually, that there were any emeralds, there weren't any sapphires that anyone you can think of at the moment, celebrity wise, From Zoe Kravitz to Beyonce to Lady Gaga, it's all diamonds. A mul Clooney.
- [31:06]
Marion Faisal
Yeah.
- [31:07]
Carole Walton
Quite interesting.
- [31:08]
Marion Faisal
Yeah. Emerald cut with tapered baguettes that George says he was involved with the design, which I explained, and I'm like, now, what does that mean? That means the jeweler let him choose. We want the men to think they're playing a role. Well, the book is really, I must confess, the History of Diamond engagement Rings, because it is the dominant stone in the category. You know, I think it's the dominant stone because it always has been. You know, we do have our outliers. We do have, you know, the Duchess of Windsor, of course, had an emerald, which is a terrible idea for an engagement ring. But I think she lived a lifestyle where she probably wasn't going to say, scratch it, you know, no washing up for her. No washing up for her. And of course, you know, Diana, Princess Diana's ring was a sapphire too, so they exist. But it's such a small percentage of engagement rings. You know, it's really.
- [32:11]
Carole Walton
There are bad luck stones in the way that say someone like J. Lo had a couple of colored done, and that, as we all know, sadly didn't go well.
- [32:25]
Marion Faisal
I blame the men. I'm back to the men, not the diamonds. You know, I really. I can't say no. I don't think there's any. Scarlett Johansson has one. She's happily married. Blake Lively also has a light pink. She's happily married. Yeah.
- [32:42]
Carole Walton
And the other thing that I rather like, because, having said, anyone getting engaged should look at this book because I think pretty much sometimes. Well, pretty much it is the first piece of significant jewelry people are buying and they have to suddenly, literally increase their knowledge about diamonds, about rings, about design, what they like. And I liked your story about Jacqueline Bouvier when she was engaged to John Kennedy, that there was no engagement ring because she said, we can't decide, we're trying on. I'm trying on loads. And that surely is the right thing to do. Just go around and try on loads.
- [33:19]
Marion Faisal
I think so, yeah. I think.
- [33:20]
Carole Walton
Don't rush it.
- [33:21]
Marion Faisal
Yeah, don't rush it. I mean, she really had a very designed ring, which is somewhat rare in the mid century, because I think that's when we think of those really classic silhouettes taking off, like the emerald cut with tapered baguettes. Before she redesigned the ring, she redesigned the White House, and then she redesigned her engagement ring with Van Cleef and Arpels. But. But she had a, you know, a bypass two Stone ring with an emerald, another colored stone, an emerald cut emerald and an emerald cut diamond with baguettes of the same colors going down the arms. It's very designed. And so she obviously did want that and she changed it, but, I mean, she wanted something designed. And so, yeah, I think it's important to take time. But today also, I feel there's so much more creativity in the rings that women are choosing, and they do look for more design than we've even seen in the recent past.
- [34:19]
Carole Walton
And even designs that you wouldn't traditionally associate with engagement rings.
- [34:23]
Marion Faisal
Yeah, like Scarlett Johansson's ring is very advanced. She has James de Givenchy sort of. It's kind of an ovally pair on a ceramic brown, you know, curved band. She wears it all the time. I mean, a lot of the women who get the very big diamond, they don't wear them all the time. But. But Scarlett Johansson enjoys that ring.
- [34:49]
Carole Walton
How many carrots is it?
- [34:50]
Marion Faisal
I'm not, you know, I do know this, but I don't have it at my fingertips. I think it's over 10.
- [34:56]
Carole Walton
Oh, wow.
- [34:57]
Marion Faisal
Yeah. No, it's big. It's big. It's big. Yeah.
- [35:00]
Carole Walton
And obviously, when people are starting out, if they're young, they might not have a big diamond, but it's okay to trade up, isn't it? Or do you have to keep the same engagement ring forever? Or can you trade it up when you do better and get a bigger stone?
- [35:17]
Marion Faisal
You know, I mean, of course you can trade it up. You can. I mean, look at Victoria beckham. She has 12 rings or something, some ridiculous number of rings. She has a few colored stones in there, too, but she also has color.
- [35:29]
Carole Walton
They're engagement rings. Are they?
- [35:30]
Marion Faisal
Well, see, now, this is the thing. What is an engagement ring? You know, this is if you put it on the third finger of your left hand, it's an engagement ring. Because as we say, I mean, there's no ceremony surrounding it. It's just the place where you wear it on your finger, and so she wears it there. Therefore, we've decided that's an engagement ring. And she has many. But yes, I think changing it, rearranging it, do whatever you want with it. It's really just a joyful jewel to enjoy.
- [36:02]
Carole Walton
And as you say, you shouldn't be wearing something you don't like.
- [36:07]
Marion Faisal
No, you shouldn't be wearing something you don't like. With Meghan Markle, when she. She redesigned her ring, I know that was such a big scuffle. I mean, I wrote. I think I wrote a thousand words in response to that. Because of course she, she redesigned the three stone ring very gently with Lorraine Schwartz where she had the, you know, I think a micropave set band put on it and something on the interior. But people were so up in arms that she had as though it was a crown jewel, you know. So I really, I wrote a rebuttal to that on my website on the adventuring because I thought that seemed insane. You know, it's her ring and she wanted to change it. That's fine, that's fine.
- [36:51]
Carole Walton
Because you've got to wear it and you've got to like it.
- [36:54]
Marion Faisal
Exactly. That's the short answer. It's fine, change your ring. Yeah.
- [36:59]
Carole Walton
But anyway, you also mentioned stones being reset in the book for divorce rings.
- [37:05]
Marion Faisal
Yes.
- [37:06]
Carole Walton
The engagement ring might be reset for a different purpose.
- [37:10]
Marion Faisal
Yes, yes, that famous ring, I mean some people, you know, Emily Ratajkowski, when she, she who is an American influencer and model and when she got engaged, she had a square princess cut diamond with a pear shaped diamond set askew akimbo at an angle. And that ring caused such a sensation that my story about it on my website was literally one of the reasons I wrote the book because they're just perpetually popular. I mean, she had been married and divorced and the story about the ring was still popular, which just essentially said what the ring was, which is a princess and a pair. But that angle that she put on a two side stone ring, you know, a twi Moi ring, really excited people. And if you look around at engagement ring collections, you will see echoes of that design where it's kind of at an angle. Whereas the trois et moi before that time, they're very, you know, kind of up and down vertical gems. And. Yeah, and so she got divorced and she loves jewelry and she had the rings reset by the same person, Alison Liu, who she designed it with. And then, you know, she called them her divorce rings. And it was kind of funny because again I found, I looked at the comments on her post and someone was trying to say, oh, you know, this designer invented divorce rings. What are you saying? You know, Alice and Liu didn't invent it, which I don't think they were saying they did. But anyway, back to George Frederick Kuhn's 1917 in the Rings book. He was, There is a phrase about how he's talking about, oh well, when women get divorced, they're resetting the rings. This is what's happening. You know, they're holding on to them.
- [38:58]
Carole Walton
So nothing's new.
- [38:59]
Marion Faisal
No.
- [39:01]
Carole Walton
Now what would you Think if someone proposed with a lab grown diamond.
- [39:07]
Marion Faisal
Absolutely not. That's just me. I mean, people are allowed, obviously. It's as I say, and I mean it. There's no rules and you have to do what's going to make you happy. But. But, you know, certainly that was in my mind as well, a reason to write the story because, well, first I just view lab grown as a different category entirely. It's not the jewelry that I look at or review because, you know, there's all these threads of history that are going on in my mind when I'm looking at these things. And I think that that's what's going on in women's minds, you know, subconsciously, perhaps with most women, when you receive that engagement ring, it just, it just feels, you know, like something different. You know, I don't believe in the competition to have the biggest ring. And I made with great intention to show certain celebrities in the book who do not have such, you know, the big headline making rings like the 12 carat or the, you know, the Lady Gaga giant oval. You know, Jennifer Lawrence has a very. A gorgeous ring. I'm sure it's three or four carats, but it's not huge. You know, it's not in competition. And she wears it all the time. Lily Collins, really, she started off with a rose cut diamond and you know, again, it's just a ring that fits on your finger. It's just a beautiful ring. So. So I think that ultimately, I think, you know, as I say, a lot of these celebrities that I see that have the very big rings, they kind of wear them for a period when they get engaged, and then you don't see those rings again. I mean, I've looked. Even Amal Clooney, she does not wear that ring.
- [40:55]
Carole Walton
I'm gonna have a look next time. I haven't.
- [40:57]
Marion Faisal
Please do, because I've looked at, like, you know, as long as they've been married, I have looked at, you know, every single image of Amal Clooney trying to find a beautiful picture of that ring. It was hard. She barely wears it.
- [41:09]
Carole Walton
Really? What does she wear? Just the wedding ring. Yeah, well, she's dealing with sort when you think of her work as a human rights lawyer, I mean, it would feel wrong to wear it in those situations, wouldn't it?
- [41:22]
Marion Faisal
Yeah, but she doesn't wear it on the red carpet.
- [41:24]
Carole Walton
Okay. Oh, that's interesting.
- [41:27]
Marion Faisal
Yeah. I just think it's because it's big, you know, I just think, you know, it seems like a good idea at the time.
- [41:32]
Carole Walton
So you can get too big.
- [41:34]
Marion Faisal
I think you can. And you know, I mean, I keep referring to Lady Gaga, I suppose, because I've seen her a lot lately and she still wears that ring every time she goes out. She loves that ring and it's huge, you know, whereas. And Jennifer Lawrence wears her ring all the time. I think it's just a very comfortable piece of jewelry for her and she truly loves it. I don't think people should. I think they should think of how they live and their life and what they want. And to me, the lab grown question is really often about people wanting a larger ring than is their budget. And I don't think that's a good idea.
- [42:11]
Carole Walton
Also, we were talking at the beginning about this idea of permanence that's so important and invincibility and foreverness. And I don't believe a lab grown stone is forever.
- [42:22]
Marion Faisal
No. And it's the authenticity, you know, the authenticity of your relationships. The, you know, it's supposed to be a reflection of your union. To me, I mean, that's what it's been throughout history. So I find lab grown diamonds a little sad.
- [42:37]
Carole Walton
So you need the real thing.
- [42:39]
Marion Faisal
I think so.
- [42:40]
Carole Walton
And what do you think people are looking for now when they go out and get engaged? Do you think some young people are thinking, oh for God's sake, diamonds. I don't need a diamond. I can have any old ring. I mean, I used to find in the Vogue office sometimes, you know, they would have anything, literally. I mean, I'm coming out with a Cartier, a Justin Clou, just a little nail one fashion editor had as her huge wedding ring. Really cute.
- [43:09]
Marion Faisal
Yeah.
- [43:10]
Carole Walton
I mean, some people have skulls, don't they?
- [43:13]
Marion Faisal
I think that's cute. You know, I think it's all cute. I think as long as it's fun and joyful and a reflection and, you know. Yeah. I mean, there are no rules, there's nothing that you have to do. I think vintage is a very good alternative, you know, for people that are concerned about sustainability. You can also get things for less in that category. I just think there's so many beautiful options to choose from within many different price ranges, you know, that have emotion and fun. Like you said, you probably saw a million emerald cut diamonds over your lifetime, Carol. But what you remember is the little just un clou. It's like, oh, that's cute. That's an alternative decision.
- [43:56]
Carole Walton
Yes. And very much her.
- [43:58]
Marion Faisal
Yeah.
- [43:59]
Carole Walton
So we've bust another myth that it's okay to have a lab grown diamond. No, it's not.
- [44:03]
Marion Faisal
No.
- [44:06]
Carole Walton
We bust that myth because there is. The young ones do have this, oh, it's an ethical choice idea in their heads.
- [44:12]
Marion Faisal
No, it's a choice that is been sold as being ethical. You know, it's not. I think that if you simply ask yourself how much power does it take to turn a piece of carbon into a diamond, you recognize pretty quickly that that would be a lot of energy usage. And it is, it is.
- [44:35]
Carole Walton
And it's not supporting Africa or India for the cutting. Africa for the finding and the employment of the stone.
- [44:44]
Marion Faisal
Exactly.
- [44:45]
Carole Walton
So there we go. That is bust and bust, I think. And I think, you know, as, as traditions go in jewellery. Do you this arguably could be one of the longer lasting jewelry habits that we have, do you think?
- [45:03]
Marion Faisal
I completely agree. I walked away from this book and I said, this is extraordinary. You know, for 500 years women have been wearing diamond engagement rings and you know, uninterrupted. And it is extraordinary. And I think that we really live in a time in which, you know, talisman and charms and symbolic jewelry is so incredibly popular. And you know, yet there's the engagement ring. What is more symbolic, what is more of a talisman than that symbol, that person symbol to you and in your union. And I thought it was, you know, I was really in awe of the story and the longevity of the popularity of the ring.
- [45:47]
Carole Walton
Well, you've written it beautifully, Marian. Thank you very much indeed for talking to us about it and I urge anyone, especially anyone getting engaged, to read it.
- [45:57]
Marion Faisal
Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure. I have to write more books so I can come back to Carol once every four years.
- [46:04]
Carole Walton
No, but we can think of other things. We can think of any more to talk about.
- [46:07]
Marion Faisal
Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.
- [46:15]
Carole Walton
Thank you for listening. For this and other episodes of if Jules Could Talk, please go to our website carolwalton.com do share it any way you can and we love to have a rating or comment. To find out more about our sponsors answers. That's www.leibish.com. and don't forget the book of the podcast is out. If Jules Could Talk. Join me again for the next jeweled nugget when we'll be exploring the brooch in all its glory from 1200 BCE to present day fantasies. So please join me then and thank you for listening. See you next time. Bye bye. If Jules Could Talk with Carol Walton is produced by Natasha Cowan Music and editing by Tim Thornton Graphics by Scott Bentley Illustration by Jordi labander.