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- [00:00]
Morris Pearl
Why have I asked my electrician? I found on Angie.com to bury my pet hamster. I was so moved by how carefully he buried my electrical wires. I knew I could trust him to bury my sweet nibbles after his untimely end. This is very strange, Angie.
- [00:11]
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Morris Pearl
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- [00:37]
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Jennifer (Podcast Host)
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Jennifer (Podcast Host)
Book your next day now. Average savings $72 select homes only. All right. I am joined today by Morris Pearl and he chairs the board of directors at Patriotic Millionaires. He is formerly a managing director at BlackRock and is a co author of Tax the Rich. How Lies, Loopholes and Lobbyists make the Rich Even Richer and Pay the People. Why Fair Pay is Good for Business and great for America. He is also joining Dream for New York City's push to tax the rich. Let's take a quick look of Morris. Play the clip.
- [01:33]
Morris Pearl
Hi, I'm Morris Pearl. I'm a millionaire and I'm here to tell Governor Kathy Hochul that raising my taxes is a great idea. There are a lot of reasons to tax the rich made by a lot of good and smart people. Governor Hochul has just one reason. We're not taxing the rich. She thinks we'll leave town. That's not true. I should know. I'm one of the rich people. We're not leaving. Rich people love New York.
- [02:00]
Jennifer (Podcast Host)
I love that. Morris, welcome.
- [02:02]
Morris Pearl
Great to be in your show, Jennifer.
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Jennifer (Podcast Host)
Yes, thank you. Okay, so let's talk about our shirts that we're wearing. I'm rich. Tax me. Tell us about our shirts.
- [02:11]
Morris Pearl
Yeah, the Dream for New York people made the shirts, sent it, you know, they asked me to wear it on the clip that you, you just showed and I did. And they told me you'd be wearing yours today. So I wore mine too.
- [02:24]
Jennifer (Podcast Host)
Yeah. And so let's talk about this notion that this lie that Republicans propagandize constantly, that wealth trickles down and that Republicans are so good with the economy And I don't know about you, but it seems like every time in my lifetime when we have a Republican president, we always end up in wars and then the economy is always in shambles.
- [02:50]
Morris Pearl
Well, the thing is, it's good for some people. You know, President Trump said that, oh, we're making a lot of money when gas prices go up. It's true that a few people are making lots of money when gas prices go up. If you own a gas company. But for most people, just not the people that he talks to at Mar a Lago, paying more for gas is not a great idea. And that's. We need people that make money. Most businesses in this country are based on people spending money. And if everyone's poor and a few people have all the money, that's not good for most of us. That's the message that I've been trying to say. We rich people, the whole point of being rich is you can live wherever you want. You know, I've never met actual rich people who say, oh, if you raise my taxes, I'm going to move out. I've met a lot of middle class lawyers who work for the state legislators and work for the governor who say, oh, I'm afraid the rich people are going to move out. My brother in law told me his neighbor's cousin who's very rich is going to move out. But I've never actually met the rich people who are planning to move out. You know, I've met a lot of people, you know, like you, who've moved to New York. Yeah, because when you can afford it, New York is where everybody wants to live.
- [04:24]
Jennifer (Podcast Host)
It's so fabulous. You get so much content for your life here. But I want to talk to you a little bit about these. I call them the billionaire bedwetters and they're constantly online wetting the bed. I'm talking about like Bill Ackman, Elon Musk. It's just, it is just we have a saying in the south where we call people that complain all the time adults titty babies. And it is just titty baby city. They are constant victims. And my thing, Morris, is if you have fuck you money and you can't say fuck you, then what's the point of having fuck you money?
- [05:01]
Morris Pearl
Yeah, exactly. You know, my father in law used to say the whole point of having a lot of money is to not have to think about money. And I don't. If I want to eat in a restaurant, I go to the restaurant and order dinner. If I want to go on a trip To Los Angeles. I go on a trip to Los Angeles. I don't have to worry about money. That's the whole point.
- [05:28]
Jennifer (Podcast Host)
But you do worry about your fellow New Yorkers and you do worry about income disparity and inequality, which I think is such an important component of somebody's career character. You know, looking around the city, as you said, you just took the train here. I take the train every day. And looking at all of the people that make this city so beautiful and knowing how rigged the system is for Morris and then these people on the train, they don't have tax loopholes. And all of the things that have helped leapfrog you to a place where you are. Can you speak to that? Why it's important to you to advocate for everybody and not just yourself and your.
- [06:11]
Morris Pearl
Well, first, as you said, I came here on the number four train. I need the people who drive the train to be able to live in the city. I left my apartment this morning. When I walk out, there's doormen who open the door, there's elevator operators who drive the elevators. I need all those people to be able to afford to live in the city. I have a granddaughter who goes to Public School 163. You know, I want to make sure the city has enough money to pay all the teachers who work in her school. I want all those things to happen so that I and my children and my granddaughter can have a good life here in New York City. So, I mean, I can't live in a city with only a few rich people and lots of poor people. That doesn't work. You know, they tried that in South Africa when I was a teenager. It did not end well for the rich people. I was in Athens, Greece in 2013 when there were riots in the streets. Actually, there really were riots in the streets. And I don't want New York to end up like that. So even if I'm not altruistic, even if I'm not a philanthropist, I still want to live in a city where all the people that make New York New York can afford to live. So I want the city to have Pre K for 3 year olds. I want the city to have enough transit that everyone can get to work on time. I want the city to have school teachers and all the people that work in the hospitals and the libraries and the universities and all these things that make New York New York.
- [07:49]
Jennifer (Podcast Host)
What do you think about all these threats of people that they're going to move? They're going to move to Florida and they're going to Pack up their toys and leave. What do you think about that kind of bedwetting from people who have so much, who don't even have to fly, you know, commercial, who don't even have to go through the insufferable experience of the TSA lines and the entitlement that so many American wealthy people have, that the bare minimum that we all have, death and taxes that they are trying to evade one of those.
- [08:20]
Morris Pearl
Yeah, it's just sad. I mean, yes, a lot of people, when they get very old, they don't want to be in the snow and walk up the stairs anymore. You know, Debbie Wasserman Schultz said that everyone either is my constituent now or you will be someday. Okay, fine. My grandparents moved to Florida when they were very old. It was, you know, great for them. They loved living there. But I am not planning to move anywhere, you know. And yeah, there's a whole different life that so many people have. I remember once, you know, we were going on vacation and we were flying first class and united to Berlin with a large group of my family and my, my sons and girlfriend, you know, when we were delayed a bit and we were going to a fancy dining in the, you know, whatever they call it the Polaris something or other. So this is how the rich people live. And I just thought to myself, no, the actual really rich people are not wandering through Newark Airport. They're at Teterboro getting onto their private jets. And it's just like so many people don't even realize what a difference there is between like the rich and the really rich. And I think that people are starting to realize that now. And so many people are getting fed up and they're just saying, we're not going to put up with this anymore. And that's leading to people sort of giving up on democracy. And they might decide to vote for autocracy instead of democracy, saying, well, democracy hasn't worked, so we'll try something else.
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Jennifer (Podcast Host)
Or
- [09:58]
Morris Pearl
maybe we'll have civil unrest or riots in the streets in here too. And I don't really want either one of those things. So I'm trying to do something about it.
- [10:06]
Jennifer (Podcast Host)
So New York City currently is facing a 5.4 billion budget shortfall. And the Mayor Mamdani is trying to reconcile this. And we're all pressuring Governor Hochul to make up for this shortcoming. Not on working class New Yorkers, but on the rich. What happens to you, Morris, if Kathy Hochul says, okay, Morris, I'm going to tax you some more. How does this affect your life? What happens to Morris?
- [10:37]
Morris Pearl
Well, in any realistic scenario, maybe my granddaughter would have a slightly smaller inheritance many decades from now. I'm not going to live any differently. I'm not going to cut back on restaurants. I'm not going to do anything different. Maybe the balance in some brokerage account someplace will be a little bit lower if I have to pay more in taxes. But no, it's not going to change my life. It's not going to change the life of anybody I know. The whole point of being rich, as I said, is not to have to worry about money. If I have to pay a few thousand dollars in additional real estate taxes, it's not going to. I don't even know how much real estate tax I pay now, honestly. And no, it's not going to change my life at all.
- [11:23]
Jennifer (Podcast Host)
And how important do you think this is that the governor work and compromise with this new mayor who really, I mean, he beat the establishment, he beat the billionaire class, he started at 1% and he is laser focused on, you know, affordability for people. How important is it that Kathy Hochul compromised with him to deliver to help this city?
- [11:51]
Morris Pearl
Well, it's important to me. You know, is it important to Kathy Hochler or not? I'm not sure, but we're working on making it more important to her. But I want her to, I want her to help make New York the place where all the people that make in New York can afford to live. So that's why I want the mayor's plans like Pre K for 3 year olds. That's why I want more affordable housing in New York. That's why I want more buses for people to get to work. And I talked to the mayor just yesterday and I told him that, I told him how we're working on it and we're trying to convince the governor that she doesn't have to only pay attention to the couple of dozen people that show up at her high dollar campaign donation events, but that most of us want a lot of people in New York who can afford to live here. We're not losing the millionaires. Millionaires are moving into the city like you are. We're losing the middle class people who want to have kids and then they suddenly realize they can't afford to pay for a bigger apartment and can't afford to pay for childcare and they decide to move to New Jersey or Connecticut where taxes are pretty similar but childcare expenses and rent are way less. Those are the people we're losing. Those are the people I'd like Governor Hochul to wor about losing.
- [13:23]
Jennifer (Podcast Host)
And I just, I think there's something really interesting happening with New York City right now and the state of New York. And it is representative of what's happening in the Democratic Party right now. You have a lot of Democrats who since Citizen United are corporatists and they have been bought and broken a little bit by a lot of these corporate donations. And then you have this new let's get back to FDR style governing. Let's get a generational party that lifts up up unions, that lifts up the worker and taxes the rich. And I feel like if Kathy Hochul and Zorin Mamdani can work together here to pave the way because I'm from Oklahoma City originally and usually stuff that happens, it happens on the coast first and then it trickles inward to the rest of the country. And so I'm hopeful that the mayor and the governor can compromise and work together here to set an example for the Democratic Party at large, but for the nation at large and how to govern. The reason we're in this situation with Donald Trump, the reason we're in this situation where Eric Adams left this huge deficit, is because both parties have tended to corporations more than people. What's your take on that?
- [14:44]
Morris Pearl
It's that so many of our political leaders are afraid. They're just afraid, Jennifer, because they talk to people at these high dollar political function fundraisers. I was at a party with a senator from a different part of the country and he said to me, oh, speaking publicly, it's a good thing I'm not a self funder like this other guy because only events like this where I meet regular people and I just thought, are you insane? You think regular people are paying $1,000 each to stand in line and talk to you for 30 seconds each? Like I didn't say that, but that's what I thought. It was just absurd. Yeah, but those are the people they talk to. The people who like, are business executives and relatively wealthy people and those are the only people they talk to enough of the time to get to know their ideas. I mean, I mean it's true with me too. You know, members of Congress call me on the phone all the time and oh, we want your wisdom and judgment and whatnot. And believe me, I don't have any more wisdom and judgment than the next person, but I do have more money than the typical next person. But a lot of people, after they're hearing how appreciated they are for their wonderful judgment that they and counsel they give to these political Leaders, they start to believe it. They start to believe they're actually smarter than other people. And then the political leaders, their constituents are basically doing okay. You know, yes, maybe they have some complaint about, you know, their pilots that work for their airline get more rest than they think they need, but. Or something like that. But most of the people who are rich are doing basically fine and they're afraid of breaking something. They're afraid if they make some big change, that something might go wrong, something bad might happen. So they're kind of afraid to make any big, bold changes. And right now we need something big and something bold, and we can't just continue the same course because it's getting worse.
- [17:06]
Jennifer (Podcast Host)
And it incubates fascism. It incubates an electorate that is so desperate to not be passed over. But I would argue, Morris, that the big change that happened was Citizens United. That was the biggest change that happened. And we need to correct course from that. And that's why I think your group, Patriotic Millionaires, because there is a tendency sometimes with far left. To the far left political spectrum to just hate rich people. And there's a lot of villains to hate. Like I really hate Elon Musk. I enjoy hating him. It's something. It's something of a blood sport for me. Right.
- [17:42]
Morris Pearl
It's fine.
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Jennifer (Podcast Host)
Right.
- [17:43]
Morris Pearl
Allowed to do that.
- [17:43]
Jennifer (Podcast Host)
Right. But in general, there's a system here of, of capitalism, of people, of the American dream, where you can come and start a business. I started this podcast with my friend Angie three and a half years ago, and it's been so successful that now I have a studio in. You know, that's a cool. That's really cool. And I was a very successful interior designer before that. You know, all about women having their own money. And so there's a system where you want to preserve the American dream and make it possible for people to start a business or be successful. But there's also hundreds of millions of Americans that just want an everyday job where they have enough money to go on vacation. They don't have to file for medical bankruptcy if they get a root canal, you know, that's not going to put them behind on rent for two or three months. And this is the reality for the overwhelming majority of people. And every realistic economist goes back to the problem here is we are not taxing the rich. The rich are not paying their fair share in taxes. So you are a part of this group called Patriotic Millionaires, which I think is a really important message. The first time I heard it, I thought, oh, God, they're making it about them. They're millionaires. But then I really started thinking about it, and it's, we have to build, you know, coalitions here. We have to build really big coalitions to save our country. And so please tell me about patriotic millionaires, what you all are doing and what your fundamental messaging is.
- [19:20]
Morris Pearl
Look, we're a group of rich people. I'm in favor of people being rich. I recommend everyone try it. It's much better than the alternative. Okay. And, you know, yeah, you have a very successful podcast, and it's great that, you know, you're here in New York. I love New York. Everyone loves New York. And just like, you know, you make money and support your children and they go off to college, all the people that work here do too. You know, all of your employees also may want to have kids and send them off to college successfully. All the people that work in my building, you know, a dozen people who are members of 32 BJ, the doormen and elevator operators and porters and stuff that work in the building where I live, they want to have kids and support their families and send people to college, too. They all want that. It's not that I'm like, super altruistic. It's, I want to live in a place that works for everybody because I need all those people. I don't want to have people marching the streets and rioting or something. So the patriotic millionaires are saying we're seeing our country moving in this direction towards, I don't know, either autocracy or total fascism or something. That's not good. It's not good for us. And we're trying to do something about it. We're advocating for a more fair tax system. Part of the problem is that the very, very rich people pay almost no tax at all. And it's not because I have an army of accountants or loopholes or something. It's very, very simple. The main tax we have is an income tax. If you don't have any income, you don't have to pay an income tax. If you're really rich, you don't need any income. So that's the secret. If you don't want to pay income taxes, just don't have any income. It's that simple. And it helps to be rich and not need any income. So it's not that, you know, it's not that there's some secret loopholes or something or I'm not hiding money anywhere. I don't even hire people to help, but it's that simple. So the patriotic millionaires are working on advocating for more fair tax system. And ideas that we've had were kind of on the fringe a few years ago are now mainstream. We are the mainstream. The people who are against taxing the rich, they are the fringe.
- [21:54]
Jennifer (Podcast Host)
Now, agree.
- [21:55]
Morris Pearl
We have moved the Overton window quite a long ways from where we were a dozen years ago when Barack Obama gave his Buffett Rule speech and we were standing with him on the podium in the White House. So we are making progress. We're not all the way there yet, but we're making progress. And we also work on advocating for higher minimum wage because we'd like all the people that work to be able to afford to support their families. And we're advocating for political campaign finance reform. So those are the things that we work on. Mainly making our tax system more progressive is the sort of main focus of those three.
- [22:37]
Jennifer (Podcast Host)
What's your closing message to Governor Hochul?
- [22:42]
Morris Pearl
Look, I'd say to Governor Hochul, you want New York State and New York City to be able to thrive and continue being what they are. And to do that, you need to have enough revenue to be able to make New York continue to being New York. I want New York City to have enough revenue to pay for the buses, to pay for the schools, to pay for all the things that make New York New York, and make it the place where all the millionaires want to live, regardless of how much taxes they pay.
- [23:15]
Jennifer (Podcast Host)
All right, Governor Hochul, you know, as a woman who lived in a red State for 50 years, I think you have an incredible opportunity to show not just New York, but the country, this is the new model. This is the new way forward for the Democratic Party to deliver something besides anti Trumpism. We have to believe in something. We have to believe in what helps everybody. And I think you and the mayor have a perfect opportunity to be trailblazers and get us back to what the Democratic Party is supposed to be. Party of the people. Morris, thank you so much. It's been so lovely. I want to tell my listeners, Morris walked in here with his bicycle helmet on. So are you taking a city bike back up?
- [23:57]
Morris Pearl
Yeah, I was planning to use a city bike to go home after the. After he finished taking the podcast.
- [24:01]
Jennifer (Podcast Host)
How cool is that? He took the train down here and the city bike back up.
- [24:04]
Morris Pearl
Yeah.
- [24:05]
Jennifer (Podcast Host)
I love it. Morris, thank you so much.
- [24:07]
Morris Pearl
Thank you, Jennifer. Great to be in your show.
- [24:08]
Jennifer (Podcast Host)
Yeah.
- [24:20]
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